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Author Topic: Oil  (Read 11950 times)

biobill

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Oil
« on: November 04, 2006, 01:32:43 PM »
  Back in the day, early 80s, when I thought running a motorcycle around a race circut was the most fun tou could have with your pants on, we were running a 6 hr endurance race in New Hampshire. A friend of mine was also entered on a watercooled Honda V4 which were known to have cooling problems under race conditions. At a pit stop/rider swap his team mate warned him that the engine was so hot it was burning him through his leathers. No way to add coolant without letting the engine cool for a long time. My buddy, with stout heart and a pocket full of credit cards, continued the race on his air cooled bike which predictably DNF'd several laps later.
  That evening, sitting around the pits drinking brews and telling hero stories, he told me that he ran about 3/4 lap on 2 cyls before it finally quit. We hit the starter and the engine spun, much to my surprise. Sounded like the compression was OK too. We did some quick digging and found that it had quit because the the ignition triggers had melted. Now I don't know what the melting point of ign.triggers are but they were located in the coolest part of the engine, under an outer crank cover. The top end must have been aproching the temperature of the sun.
  A few days later ( I' getting to the point) I stopped by his garage where the engine was torn down. All the oil lubricated surfaces looked fine. The cams run right in the alum. head and the journals looked great. Rod & main bearings, cyl walls, everything looked fine. Turned out he'd been running a new (at the time)synthetic oil. Made a believer out of me.
  Fast forward 20+ yrs.  Now I've got this replirelic and nothing I know about oil seems to apply. The oil in this thing bearly gets hot to the touch, perhaps if it ran 24/7 but mine might go 4-6 hrs at a clip.  They were designed in the SA, SB era but shouldn't I take advantage of improvements. Anybody have a clear understanding of what the service ratings specifically mean?
  Multigrades vrs straight wts.  If it really protects like a 30 but flows like a 10 thats good, no?  How about for intermittant duty. My Metro manual recommends 10w at current temps. (try and find it ) Sounds like 3n1 to me.
  Gas vrs diesel. I've been told that the main difference between oils for gas & diesel engines is that the diesel can deal with the sulfer residues in the diesel fuel. True? Mine run exclusively on bio so am I OK with gasoline service oil or is there more to it?
  Detergent vrs nondetergent. I understand the rational for nondetergent oil but the only ones that I can find are SA or SB and that makes me nervous. Maybe it shouldn't. What about "fortifieing" an underachieving oil?
  Synthetics post breakin? Expensive but very good. What if it was pumped through a remote oil filter at regular intervals? Wouldn't be hard to rig up.
  Anything else to consider?
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

GuyFawkes

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Re: Oil
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2006, 03:07:47 PM »
Some perspective, my dad started out with a dennis steam truck, but he also rode stuff like rudge ulsters, his mate had a vinnie, rode bikes on and off most of his life, got his steam and electric tickets amongst others, and ended up chief engineer for south east asia for a well known international shipping / oil company.

He always maintained (with the exception of silicon transisitors and new plastics) that the only two significant advances in engineering, particularly as regards to vehicles, since he was a lad were tyre technology and lubricant technology.

Nothing I have ever found has proven him wrong, uncountable examples of him being right.

Lube oil is horrendously complex stuff to understand properly, it has MANY MANY different characteristics, ALL of which have to suit your engine, and yet the only info you get is a brand name and a small type number, eg Castrol 20W50 (diesel)

Listeroids are not listers, so YMMV

Listers were designed to use a lube oil that dropped all the crap out of suspension in the sump, and come oil change time was used added to the engine fuel. SO that means a NON DETERGENT oil.

Multiweight oil is not multiweight or multigrade, ALL OF IT is monoweight oil, with certain additives that under certain circumstances make it perform like a multiweight, but the reality is it is ALL the lower of the two weights quoted, with additives, which if they aren't working for whatever reason = mono weight oil that is not pure, so with a lister or a listeroid given the relatively low stresses involved never use a multiweight, cos you'll never push it into working properly.

Synthetic oils are another thing entirely, but they again have a performance envelope, and unless you can find one expressly designed for a 4 bhp per litre 650 rpm diesel, which you wont, don't use em, cos if you do they will always be operating outside their performance envelope and may well give less protection than worn monograde diesel non detergent oil.

Lubrication is a funny thing, you don't actually want the best lubrication possible, in the slippery sense, because if it is too slippery it won't stick to an uniformly coat the bits you do not want to wear.

___IF___ you have a motor car style full flow oil filter use a monograde detergent oil.
___IF___ you do not have a motor car style full flow oil filter use a monograde non detergent oil

if you have TRB or plain mains it makes no odds, you still have plain big ends. If you had TRB mains and needle roller big ends AND camshafts then I can see a synthetic oil being useful, cos plain bearings load oil a LOT less that rollers, rollers are approaching hypoid oil pressures, there are no such extremes in a standard lister cs

HTH
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

GIII

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Re: Oil
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2006, 04:40:27 PM »
My feeling is these are relatively crude, cheap engines with very low specific outputs that can tolerate lots of insults.  They will last much longer with reasonable care than without, but they are cheap enough to repair or replace as necessary.  Remember that they are built to serve under less than ideal conditions where the operator probably has minimal training.

Everything GF said is true; the short story is anything slippery changed often is much better than the best not changed or checked.  Bonus in that the old lube oil is now fuel!

Standing by, ready for flames.

George

xyzer

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Re: Oil
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2006, 05:15:26 PM »
I have a friend that burns only WMO it's detergent I'm sure. Then tried non-detergent in the crankcase and it sludged up bad. I know in the old days motors would sludge up so bad it would choke the the oil return galleys to where they wouldn't allow flow back to the crankcase. Nowdays with the exclusive use of detergenent oil the sludging is a thing of the past. Changing oil at a regular interval helps also. I will stick with the detergent oil with a regular change interval and dispose of it mixed with fuel. After seeing his run on  straight WMO and how it sludged up with non detergent in the crankcase convinced me. Will it last as long? I'll let who ever inherits the damn thing figure that out!
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snail

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Re: Oil
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2006, 01:10:02 AM »
    Didn't Mr Lister specify a certain level of detergency for tropical use? I never have understood that.If you want the crud to settle in a temperate climate, why have it circulating through the pump and bearings in the tropics?
    I changed the oil on my pumped 12/2 'roid after it had sat for 6 months (only gets used in summer).
Removed drain plug.... no oil flow. Removed strainer..... big gob of oily crud came out followed by the expected black gold. The pump pickup sits in a small well in the lowest part of the sump. This is where the crud collects.All of the crud that ends up in the well goes through the pump and bearings.
    This may be one of those occasions where splash feed is an advantage over pumped supply.

Cheers,

Brian

xyzer

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Re: Oil
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2006, 02:25:55 AM »
       I changed the oil on my pumped 12/2 'roid after it had sat for 6 months (only gets used in summer).
Removed drain plug.... no oil flow. Removed strainer..... big gob of oily crud came out followed by the expected black gold.
Cheers,

Brian
Brian,
 Was it detergent or non-detergent oil?
 I put a filter on mine. On the pumped versions 12/2's don't they have a centrifical oil slinger? My 6/1 just pumped to the TRB's. I installed a centrifical oil slinger supplied by the pump, with a filter it will get a clean supply of oil.
Dave
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snail

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Re: Oil
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2006, 02:49:10 AM »
Dave,
      I assume that your centrifugal slinger arrangement is for the big end.The big ends on my Indian 12/2 and the Dursley 10/2 are splash , and in the case of the 10/2, hollow dippers. The pumped oil in both feeds the 3 (plain) mains. Both have a couple of oil tappings for the dipper troughs, but as India thought we didn't need the troughs, they're blanked off on the 'roid.
     The upshot of all this is that the gunge from the bottom of the sump ends up being pumped over the mains and (in the Dursley engine) into the dipper troughs.
    A decent oil filter is obviously the way to go, but on the twins it's difficult to get to the pressure side of the pump. Currently, I have a few too many things on the go to fit an external oil pump.One day... :D
    It was detergent oil BTW, the same 15/40 that I put in my tractor. I know that that will raise some hackles but I couldn't find straight 40 in a hurry.


Cheers,

Brian

xyzer

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Re: Oil
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2006, 03:02:06 AM »
Brian,
I forgot the twins use a different oil pump setup. On the singles you have easy access to the pressure side of the system. I need to look over a twin someday. I really want one but they get so heavy! Hey any oil is better than dirty oil! I need to look at mine and see how it is doing. Not many hours but the time keeps marching!
Dave
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snail

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Re: Oil
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2006, 06:31:57 AM »
Guy,

Quote
so with a lister or a listeroid given the relatively low stresses involved never use a multiweight, cos you'll never push it into working properly.

Genuine question from a bloke who wants to learn:

I've not come across this concept in oils before. Have you got any "further reading"? I can understand oils having a temperature "envelope" (too hot= degradation, too cold = contamination) but you appear to be talking about shear rates (or something similar). Once again, I can understand there being an upper limit on this, but the idea of a lower limit seems counter- intuitive.

Anyone else care to comment?

Brian

GuyFawkes

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Re: Oil
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2006, 05:08:42 PM »
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

aqmxv

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Re: Oil
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2006, 07:00:30 PM »
In augmentation to GF's post, I'll note that Lubrizol is the company that makes pretty much every lubricant vendor's additive package.  No matter whose oil you buy, it probably contains Lubrizol products.  They know the real world of machine lubrication intimately, and I'd trust their word on it over just about anybody else's.

This page http://www.lubrizol.com/LubeTheory/prop.asp in particular is full of the real thing.  It'll be hard going for those of you who didn't suffer through organic chem classes, but you can rest assured that there is no straighter dope on lubricant additives to be found.
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snail

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Re: Oil
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2006, 11:14:54 PM »
Thanks guy(and aq), that's exactly what i was looking for.Haven't read it all yet but I'm already learning.

Cheers,

Brian

gpkull

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Re: Oil
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2006, 07:41:04 PM »
not going to argue but the powerline manual i have says " a good quality deisel engine heavy duty detergent lubricating oil. it must meet specs IS 496. straight mineral  not suitable "

phaedrus

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Re: Oil
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2006, 01:28:04 AM »
If you'll check with the Indian Bureau of Standards you'll see that Indian lube oil specification Nr 496 (IS496) is obsolete and is superceded by IS13656. I checked with Chevron USA to see what oil met IS13656 and they said: " Thanks for contacting us.  You can use Chevron Delo 400  SAE 30 or 40 in your diesel engine needing an IS 13656 oil."  My GTC databooklet calls for 40wt oil - and it's running jus' fine with Delo 400 40 wt made in the usa oil. I would think twice about running 40 wt in a cold climate though, and am of the opinion that if the engine case gets colder than freezing the GTC specification ought to be ignored in favor a multiviscosity Delo.
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biobill

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Re: Oil
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2006, 11:35:08 PM »
 OK, I think I can keep the 'roid happy. 

But.......I'm still curious about the diesel service/gasoline service question. More specifically, do diesels typically load their bearing surfaces more than their gasoline counterparts (psi) or are they sized appropriately so that the loads are similar. Is the heat that much different , diesel to gas. Diesels generally spin slower than gas but there's lots of exceptions. Two strokes of both varieties aside I just don't see much difference from a lubrication standpoint.

Is it all about being compatible with the fuels and their residues? If so, then those of us burning 'other stuff 'might be just as well off using an oil spec'ed for gas engines.   I dunno.   :-\  Any opinions?

                                                      Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw