Author Topic: Electrical Underwriter inspection  (Read 4871 times)

skeeter

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Electrical Underwriter inspection
« on: October 23, 2006, 09:24:39 PM »
I'm moving along with getting my 12/2, 7.5kw ST genset up and running before winter. When mounting the gen head to its frame thew other night, I noticed that their was no UL or like listing mark on the label. Has anyone gotton any grief about this from their local electrical inspector.
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rcavictim

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Re: Electrical Underwriter inspection
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2006, 09:44:15 PM »
I'm moving along with getting my 12/2, 7.5kw ST genset up and running before winter. When mounting the gen head to its frame thew other night, I noticed that their was no UL or like listing mark on the label. Has anyone gotton any grief about this from their local electrical inspector.

If your generator is not connected to the mains (i.e. selling power back to the utility) and does not deliver power to anyone else off your own property then electrical code in Ontario does not apply and same with any expectations of UL or CSA endorsement.  Electrical codes all over the place are similar.

If your electrical installation is part of a railway (in Ontario) the code doesn`t apply either.

That said, it doesn`t necessarily mean that your property insurance carrier will be happy with what you are doing, but then there are no laws that require you carry insurance for stationary private property.
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listerdiesel

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Re: Electrical Underwriter inspection
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2006, 09:50:54 PM »
I'm moving along with getting my 12/2, 7.5kw ST genset up and running before winter. When mounting the gen head to its frame thew other night, I noticed that their was no UL or like listing mark on the label. Has anyone gotton any grief about this from their local electrical inspector.

As rcavictim has already pointed out, the UL or CSA marks are only a sign that the equipment meets a certain standard, and are not necessarily a requirement per se.

It is odd that equipment that we make in the UK has to go through UL inspection and be marked as such when it passes (it did) but the actual standard doesn't necessarily apply to similar gear made inside the US or Canada.

We now have the CE marking, which has reached joke status as things like soft fluffy toys have the mark, a pair of gloves have the mark and so does a 1MW generator :-))

Peter
 

skeeter

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Re: Electrical Underwriter inspection
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2006, 10:21:04 PM »
listerdiesel - How does one check for electromagnetic compatibility of a pair of gloves? LOL.
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listerdiesel

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Re: Electrical Underwriter inspection
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2006, 10:28:21 PM »
listerdiesel - How does one check for electromagnetic compatibility of a pair of gloves? LOL.

That is exactly the problem, it covers everything!

The CE mark is supposed to tell a purchaser that it meets whatever reg's are specific to the item, but I am sure that a lot of far-eastern makers put it on with no testing whatsoever.

Peter

Doug

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Re: Electrical Underwriter inspection
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2006, 11:12:51 PM »
This has been problem withg CSA as well so now the sticker has a hologram.

CSA doesn't mean much. I recall on more than one job a CSA inspector would give a stamp of aproval to a machine only for hydro to come and say its not good enough ...

Doug

trigzy

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Re: Electrical Underwriter inspection
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2006, 05:48:29 PM »
If your generator is not connected to the mains (i.e. selling power back to the utility) and does not deliver power to anyone else off your own property then electrical code in Ontario does not apply and same with any expectations of UL or CSA endorsement.  Electrical codes all over the place are similar.
[/quote

Not quite true....

http://www.esa-safe.com/GeneralPublic/epa_002.php?s=19

Rule: 2-022 Sale or Other Disposal and Use
No person shall advertise, display, offer for sale, connect to a source of electrical power, or use any electrical equipment unless it has been approved in accordance with Rule 2-024.

There are other rules, that's just the one that I could find the reference to easiest.  The enforcement on this hasn't been the greatest, so I wouldn't get too excited, but just so it's clear, unless it is approved, it is illegal to use (in Ontario).

Steve
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rcavictim

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Re: Electrical Underwriter inspection
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2006, 06:52:54 PM »
If your generator is not connected to the mains (i.e. selling power back to the utility) and does not deliver power to anyone else off your own property then electrical code in Ontario does not apply and same with any expectations of UL or CSA endorsement.  Electrical codes all over the place are similar.
[/quote

Not quite true....

http://www.esa-safe.com/GeneralPublic/epa_002.php?s=19

Rule: 2-022 Sale or Other Disposal and Use
No person shall advertise, display, offer for sale, connect to a source of electrical power, or use any electrical equipment unless it has been approved in accordance with Rule 2-024.

There are other rules, that's just the one that I could find the reference to easiest.  The enforcement on this hasn't been the greatest, so I wouldn't get too excited, but just so it's clear, unless it is approved, it is illegal to use (in Ontario).

Steve

Steve,

Well I`m not a lawyer, nor have I ever played one on TV but as I understand it by studying my copy of the OEC, that rule is pertaining only to electrical apparatus that has been sold or transfered to one person or corporation to another person or corporation.  It does NOT apply to equipment you might for example fabricate and use exclusively by yourself. On that specific issue I hashed that out with a senior hydro inspector.  He was powerless to stop me from testing home made electrical equipment, not built to any form of code, on my own property from the utility supplied mains.  If there was a prohibition on that then no R&D or invention of new apparatus could possibly exist, therefor it is exempted.  Furthermore the term `source of electrical power` has to be defined and for practical purposes here I believe means the public utility. It does not mean a generator on private property.  If the power from your generator does not cross your private property line, it is not subject to any such rules.

As far as selling non approved equipment, it is customary to cut off the power cord on equipment and selling it as-is with no claim or support for the buyer as a useable device other than for parts.  This circumvents Rule 2-022..
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 07:19:53 PM by rcavictim »
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- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rcavictim

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Re: Electrical Underwriter inspection
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2006, 07:10:43 PM »
listerdiesel - How does one check for electromagnetic compatibility of a pair of gloves? LOL.

Digital equipment often requires some form of EMI shielding to have electromagnetic compatibility.  Since gloves, by design, are the defacto `digital` gear (gloves have always come standard with five digits), presumably EMI shielding would be required.   ;D
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

trigzy

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Re: Electrical Underwriter inspection
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2006, 07:20:48 PM »
..... Furthermore the term `source of electrical power` has to be defined and for practical purposes here I believe means the public utility. It does not mean a generator on private property.  If the power from your generator does not cross your private property line, it is not subject to any such rules.
RCAV,
       You have my agreement that sale portion of that rule only applies when a product is transfered.  However, ESA's website indicates that there is movement being made on legislation to allow inspectors to sieze unapproved equipment, so that may change in the very near future.  The rule about connecting to a source of power does not discrimate about the source of that electrical power, and regargless of how you or others 'define it here', it's bad advice to give people that they are exempt from these rules.  If generators were exempt, Home Depot wouldn't bother selling CSA approved units.

I've imported countless non-CSA approved generators from China.  The inspectors have always told me that they cant do anything about that, but if I try and sell them non-approved or if I run them non-approved, even on my own property, they have the power to lay charges.  Needless to say, I always had the generators field inspected, and they carry a sticker indicating such.  I can now sell/run/rent them as much as I choose, but each individual unit has to be inspected.  Since then, the factory has gotten CSA certification, so it's no longer an issue.

Steve  
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines