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Author Topic: Transfer switch rant  (Read 52446 times)

Procrustes

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Transfer switch rant
« on: October 04, 2006, 06:56:10 AM »
Try and guess the list price of this:



It's a 100amp transfer switch; push the lever all the way up, you get grid power, all the way down, auxilliary power.  Simple, reliable, and economical, right?  It's a Square D, a familiar brand I've never had a problem with, so that's another thing in its favor.

Only it's not economical, not at all.  According to the seller on Ebay this bad boy lists for $613.  Here it is on Ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/Square-D-Switch-Enclosure-100-amp-Transfer-Switch_W0QQitemZ150041004810QQihZ005QQcategoryZ56995QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I'm not knocking Square D, they're all expensive.  What galls me is that I could damn near make this thing from my spare parts bin.

Why on earth are these things so expensive?

rcavictim

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Re: Transfer switch rant
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2006, 11:43:37 AM »
Why are these things so expensive?

Maybe because they aren`t selling millions of them yet.

Maybe because they aren`t made in China.

Maybe because they are to code and since the establishment conspires to force people to use code approved hardware in some situations the suppliers know they have you by the balls and tend to take financial advantage of you in those situations.

Maybe because the supplier has an expensive drug habit which compounds the lack of focus on reality because he is taking those drugs.  That could explain a LOT of overpricing.

.....or it could be that fancy ASA 64 grey enamelled paint job.  ;D
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
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ramdiesel3500

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Re: Transfer switch rant
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2006, 01:37:21 PM »
Okay, let me shed some light on this.  Looks like you have a Square D DT223RB switch there.  It has a NEMA 3R enclosure for outdoor use.  My Square D Digest (Square D's version of a parts catalog) lists this switch with a suggested retail price of $898.00.  However, depending on the purchasing relationship between the purchaser and the supplier, a multiplier is figured into the price.  For instance, on an item like this, our company will only pay about 20% of that list price.  We purchase near 1 million dollars worth of Square D every year.  So we get big discounts. 

Even at that, it looks to me like this switch should only cost around $100.00 and we would pay somwhere between $160 and $200 for it!

Tugger

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Re: Transfer switch rant
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2006, 01:49:52 PM »
I believe in Ontario canada that transfer switch would not be to code because it does not have the ability to switch the neutral along with the line voltages....

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Transfer switch rant
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2006, 02:00:20 PM »
I believe in Ontario canada that transfer switch would not be to code because it does not have the ability to switch the neutral along with the line voltages....


On the left hand side you can just see on the back panel where an extra pole can be added in place of just the terminal block.
That extra pole should only cost 4 or 5 hundred more. :)
______________
Andre' B

Doug

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Re: Transfer switch rant
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2006, 06:56:08 PM »
That one is a Square D brand Switch....

They also make a 60 in 2 and 3 pole....

There was a 30 in 2 and 3 pole....

Good switch.

 Think that is expensive?

Paint it red and change the name plate on the from to "Central Zone Blasting Switch" as Square D does for the mining industry and the price doubles again.... For the exact same switch....

I have a 30 3 pole and a sub panel, recycled struff from the mine. I 'd hate to retail for this stuff but the fact is these are low volume products and you pay for it....

If you check my Put file yu will see the blasting version fo this switch and its identical  ::)

dkwflight

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Re: Transfer switch rant
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2006, 01:35:38 AM »
Hi I supose that if you are smart enough to put together a lister gen set you might be smart enough to open the mains breaker before you close the breaker for the gen set!
This is what I do when I want to run the genset.
Just engage the brain first! Think about what you are doing!
If you think some one else will operate the generater You probably should get a transfer switch.
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

Procrustes

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Re: Transfer switch rant
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2006, 03:17:43 AM »
Hi I supose that if you are smart enough to put together a lister gen set you might be smart enough to open the mains breaker before you close the breaker for the gen set!
This is what I do when I want to run the genset.
Just engage the brain first! Think about what you are doing!
If you think some one else will operate the generater You probably should get a transfer switch.
Dennis

I would do that too, except that I'd have to fix it before I sell this house anyway, so why not do it right now.  Also it is possible that somebody else would try and work it, you never know.

rcavictim

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Re: Transfer switch rant
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2006, 09:42:56 AM »
I made my own.  The genset is in the worshop building where it has to pass through a Heinmann magnetic breaker switch to get to the underground cabling to the house.  In the house there is a 100 amp 3 pole contactor which will not connect the genset line (phase-phase-neutral) to the 60 amp branch circuit (used to input genny power into the main breaker box) unless there is AC power alive on the generator feed.  A further condition must also be met before the contactor can close.  A microswitch physically senses that the main breaker to the street is in the OFF position before the coil on the contactor can close. No way to engage the generator feed unless `A` it is live, and `B` the main breaker is OFF.  Furthermore, shud I wish to disconnect the genset from the house breaker box in some sort of emergency like maybe the genset is having a load related heart attack, I merely open the 60 amp twin breaker on my breaker box labelled `Genset`, or from the genset location with the Heinmann breaker switch. 

One final touch.  A pair of 25 watt incandescent light bulbs, one per phase, are attached to the incoming genset line prior to the contactor.  Each lamp has a line fuse.  These lamps confirm existence and at a glance display the quality of the power coming from the genset while working under no house connection or varying states of house load.

In the shop I bring the 120-0-120 volt output from each of my generator plants to a common electrical board on the wall and they are then each wired to two 50 amp rated Welding receptacles.  The house line to the Heinmann 30A, 2-pole breaker is a male welding plug.  Presently I can decide to run the house off either two of the 3-phases  of the 10 kW VW diesel plant (about 7 kW) or the Petter 5 kW diesel plant.  I may similarly select which genset to put the shop on, but the shop isn`t yet hardwired for genset.   I presently use extension cords on the floor (like 100 foot run of 6/3 cabtyre to the machine shop) as needed to get to the generator room from whatever machinery or heaters I want to power on genset.

As I add gensets I will simply add welding receptacles on this panel.  One day when I have the money for materials I hope to make a sound silencing cinder block room within the shop building for all the generators to be set up together.

Heinmann breakers are the best circuit breakers I have had any experience with.  They are beautifully made and open reliably when the circuit is overloaded by just a few percent.  Personally I do not trust commercially offered, code approved thermal circuit breakers found in most home panels.  They are crap compared to a Heinmann.  The Heinmann breakers I use are found in surplus electrical cabinets and switchgear from industry of 50 years ago.  They have a heavy black bakelite enclosure and may be surface mounted to a plywood panel with woodscrews.  They have heavy duty plated, machined copper block setscrew wire terminals.  They can be used without an electrical box or in one.  My Petter has one on the output control box on the plant itself (DIY genset).  I will use Heinmanns everywhere in my off-grid power setup as I proceed.  They provide very good overcurrent protection but are convenient to use as on-off switches.

-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rjcroc

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Re: Transfer switch rant
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2006, 11:04:08 PM »

Just received the new Harbor Freight flier. 200 amp Cutler-Hammer manual transfer switch
$349.99. No financial interest, just for info.

Rick
"THE GREATEST DANGER FOR MOST OF US IS NOT THAT OUR AIM IS TOO HIGH AND WE MISS IT, BUT THAT IT IS TOO LOW AND WE REACH IT"  MICHELANGELO
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Doug

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Re: Transfer switch rant
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2006, 11:11:58 PM »
Never heard of that kind of braker before.....

Sounds like you are discribing am early molded case braker is it North American NEMA standard ?

Within the limmitations of what a standard home CB is designed to do new brakers do very well. And the technology is improving with GFI, Arc fault and 10,000 amp interupt ratings ( one time ).

Many older brakers have a very poor reputation, in particular I would like to single out the  ITE Blue Line ( BL series, ITE now own by Siemes). Buy good brakers and sleep well....

Fuses are a pain in the ass when they blow, but a fuse only blows for one reason ( SOMETHING IS WRONG !!!!). Fuses never fail on and you never have to wonder if a fuse is going to function properly because it has no moving parts ( Don't correct me some do but thats not relevant right now ).

My disconects and generator parts are fused with HRC form II time delay fuses ( 600 V ). Eddison P type screw base fuses work too but they are cheap for a reason ( because they are cheap ).

Lastly there are screw in type CBs that fit eddison base terminal boards. I have abolutely zero faith in these, because the main problem with older CBs likre the BL series was trying to cram everything in a small convinient and cheap package and these look very small and cheap to me. I haven't seen one fail but again you get what you pay for....

Doug

rcavictim

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Re: Transfer switch rant
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2006, 12:49:49 AM »
Breaker Breaker.

Here is a really good zipped .pdf primer on Eaton/Heinemann CB`s which should answer your questions.

http://www.pocosales.com/Heinemann.htm

I`ve been using what may be an earlier version of the Series GH breakers described and pictured at the bottom of the offerings shown.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 01:46:47 AM by rcavictim »
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Doug

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Re: Transfer switch rant
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2006, 02:16:04 AM »
Ok I see....

I've never used those or seen that particular brand of braker. But I can understand why you would like them.

Doesn't look like they follow a modern frame size I'm familiar with such as a "K" or 400A ( Kind of confusing if you aren't familiar with industrial molded case brakers ). If I understand it right these are an OEM braker built into equipment rather than standard frame braker that you chose the trip unit on.

The 10,000 amp interupt capacity is small by modern standards where did you get these?

They are over kill for a home!

I deal almost exclusively with the Cutler Hammer ( formerly Westing House ) line for 600 V with a handfull of the Giant "Square D" stab and claw types. There are even a few of the even more rare combination Westing house brakers left in service where I work. I realy like a fuse myself to clear faults and thermal magentic for the overloads. All shunt trip equiped of course for corodination with our high impeadance grounded ground fault detection systems.

Fuses are still my first line choice especialy in the 2200 -13800 range ( S&C ) or place with very high fault current potential. I like to be able to see strikers, flags, smell expulsive fuses and not to mention be able to look at and clearly see what the problem is, condition of insulators, switches and fuses before I reach in and put on the grounds ( following procedure of course ). High voltage CBs offer a lot of benifits but I don't like of trust racking a lot of types to work on circuts. Sometimes you must use a CB for for everything else give a fuse.

Doug

Procrustes

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Re: Transfer switch rant
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2006, 04:06:46 AM »

Just received the new Harbor Freight flier. 200 amp Cutler-Hammer manual transfer switch
$349.99. No financial interest, just for info.

Rick

It's 299.99 on the website.  I've noticed before that that place has odd pricing strategies.  Thanks for the tip.

Procrustes

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Re: Transfer switch rant
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2006, 04:28:13 AM »
Criminy!  Same switch is 1000-1300 elsewhere on the web: http://www.electriciansupplies.com/index.cfm/S/230/N/9521/P/48937/Cutler_Hammer__DT224URK-NPS__-__1__Each.htm
same part number.  Maybe I should jump on that one while the HF sale is still on.