Flywheels and balancing.....

[listerdiesel]

I don't want to intentionally get into the rather long exchanges over balancing of Lister engines, but a lot of folks don't realise that the twins have individually marked and 'handed' (for want of a better expression) flywheels. Anyone who strips one down needs to remember which side of the engine they came off, or there will be some interesting oscillations to say the least.

This doesn't apply to 3/1 5/1 and 6/1 engines, and obviously a pair of flywheels off a single should NOT be transferred to the twin. One should be OK actually, but one won't be :-))

The factory balanced flywheels statically with a known weight added to the rim. Details have been requested but I fear that this may be too far in the past to give any result. There is nothing in the manuals or the Change Number book to throw any light on the matter.

Peter

[Quinnf]

Peter,

Regarding the balancing of the single cylinder engines, on page 38 of David Edgington's recent book he discusses the differences among flywheels.  He says,

"It is interesting, with this range of engines, how several specific flywheels were fitted singly, meaning the starting handle side was different from the opposite side, while others were matched pairs."

So how Dursley balanced these engines suddenly seems even more mysterious.

Quinn

[hotater]

Peter and Quinn--

It seems to me if we can dunk a flywheel and figure out exactly how much weight was added to an original wheel AND weigh the piston and rod and do all the math, we should be able to come up with the formula without too much problem.

The formula has to use the throw of the crank, the diameter of the wheel, where the counterweight is on the wheel and how much it weighs.  The weight of the piston and rod should be close enough to being the same (in the originals) that there was very little 'balancing' to be done.  The parts were balanced as cast.

   What we need is a graduated lab 'beaker' 24 inches long by 6 inches deep and wide.   

[Procrustes]

   What we need is a graduated lab 'beaker' 24 inches long by 6 inches deep and wide.   

Seriously though that shouldn't be too hard.  Plumb a graduated cylinder into a plastic animal feed trough or some such.

[listerdiesel]

What I don't know/understand, is whether Lister actually 'balanced' the flywheels or 'checked the balance' which is another thing altogether.

None of the flywheels that I have around me have any marks where metal has been removed, and there are no drillings at all.

By comparison, and as a reality check, the Ruston 1ZHR flywheels are 34" diameter with a 4+ inches face, and they don't have any balancing at all, even the machining drawing doesn't mention it.

I'll take some pictures of the two flywheels off my own 10/2 and post a URL later.

Peter

[listerdiesel]

OK, pictures are up at:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Misc/Block1.jpg
Just a shot of the block after I pulled it out from under the milling machine bench.

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Misc/Flywheel1.jpg
One of the two flywheels that we discussed. Note keyway position in respect of the balance weight,

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Misc/Flywheel2.jpg
The second of the 10/2 flywheels. Note keyway ditto.

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Misc/Crankl1.jpg
Just an observation, look at the difference in length between both Lister 10/2 cranks! Both are
genuine Lister, the new one is later, the older longer one is 1944.

Looking at both flywheels, it seems that there is machining on the inside face around the whole diameter, more than
I would have expected for just casting cleaning up, so maybe this is where the balancing was done, as the skimming
went over the balance weight.

Peter

[listerdiesel]

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Misc/Crankl1.jpg
Just an observation, look at the difference in length between both Lister 10/2 cranks! Both are
genuine Lister, the new one is later, the older longer one is 1944.

That's a typo, the correct address is:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Misc/Crank1.jpg

Sorry!

Peter

[Quinnf]

Jack,

Water displacement won't be very accurate because of surface tension and the large size of the part you need to submerge.  Now you can lower surface tension by adding detergent to the water, but it still won't be as accurate a measure of the weight of the counterweight as would bubble balancing. 

Peter,

David displays mechanical drawings of an 8/1 and 10/1 flywheel in his book which show that the rim is drilled as necessary to achieve the balance target.   A specification is stated as to how many holes may be drilled in the rim.  However no mention is made of the 6/1 and 12/2 spoked flywheels.  The Indians drill the web supporting the rim on some models, and they drill the rim on others.  I have a pair of each.

I think the English castings were probably of such consistent quality little balancing was necessary.  The quality is clear from your photographs.  The Indian castings, however . . .


Quinn

[hotater]

Peter---

Am I seeing parralax or are those keyways NOT lined up exactly with the spoke?  If not, that explains the holes to lighten one end of the counterweight on the kit wheels.  That would, effectively, 'move' the keyway in relation to the counterweight.

Quinn--  I've measured and calucalated the mass of the counterweight on these kit wheels and I'm satisfied the bubble is telling the truth.  They weigh 46 and 47 ounces each.  Now, how much are they 'supposed' to weigh?

[listerdiesel]

Peter---

Am I seeing parralax or are those keyways NOT lined up exactly with the spoke?  If not, that explains the holes to lighten one end of the counterweight on the kit wheels.  That would, effectively, 'move' the keyway in relation to the counterweight.

Quinn--  I've measured and calucalated the mass of the counterweight on these kit wheels and I'm satisfied the bubble is telling the truth.  They weigh 46 and 47 ounces each.  Now, how much are they 'supposed' to weigh?

Probably parallax, I am pretty sure that these are set central to the spoke, but I can check tonight when we get back from work. I left the block and 'wheels out in case I had to go back for more pictures or information.

Peter

[Quinnf]

Jack,

I guess I'm confused.  So if you're already satisfied that you know the weight of the counterweight, what do you want to use water displacement for? 

It's time for a pithy quote from Little Big Man:

"It is true there is a thing here I do not understand.  There is a pain between my ears."

                                                                                    - Dirt On The Nose

[Edit:  Oh excuse me all to heck.  You were talking about determining the weight of a GENUINE LISTER counterweight.]

[hotater]

BINGO---

IF we had a smooth running Lister AND we did all the weighing and measuring THEN we could adjust the Indians to match.

I have visions of an Indian 'engineer' pointing to the odd lumpy place on the original flywheels and saying,  "Yeah!  Put some of those on our wheels too.  They look cool!"

[Quinnf]

Peter says he's going to be out this way in a month or so.  Maybe we could ask him to bring a flywheel in his luggage so you could do the bubble balance routine . . .

Quinn   

[Quinnf]

I don't doubt it might happen that way without disturbing the sleep of the patternmaker,  With all the Listers hanging around Rajkot after they requested the Brits in 1947 to kindly leave by the nearest port  I rather think they grabbed one and used it as a pattern to make a mold.  Then when that mold failed, they grabbed one of the last parts to come out of that mold, used it for a pattern until that mold failed, and after who knows how many generations you end up with two flywheels with counterweights 19 ozs. different in my case.

Quinn

[listerdiesel]

Peter says he's going to be out this way in a month or so.  Maybe we could ask him to bring a flywheel in his luggage so you could do the bubble balance routine . . .

Quinn   

We are actually over in SFO next week, and we already have a very large Hornsby starting blowlamp in the luggage for a USA collector, so no room for any more :-))

Peter