Author Topic: Crankcase Splash Plate?  (Read 9656 times)

Quinnf

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Crankcase Splash Plate?
« on: September 20, 2006, 09:06:48 PM »
Ok, so what IS this splash plate thing that I keep seeing in diagrams of original Lister 6/1 engines? 

It appears to be a sheet metal plate in the sump with a slot cut in it to allow the crankshaft dipper to contact the oil, but why the splash plate?  What purpose did it serve?  Inquiring minds and all that.

Quinn
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

xyzer

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Re: Crankcase Splash Plate?
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2006, 04:11:30 AM »
Quinn...I'm as curious as you are....would they call it an "anti splash plate" It appears it would keep all the oil in the bottom of the crankcase and that a rod dipper would be hollow to get oil to the rod bearing...not much splashing around with the plate installed...Where are the original Lister guys when you need'em?
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snail

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Re: Crankcase Splash Plate?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2006, 06:24:26 AM »
Hi all,

As an "original Lister guy" I'd also be keen to see one!. Admittedly, mines a twin so it shouldn't have one. I asked this question a while ago and the silence was deafening. I can't work out why the singles should have the solid dipper/splash plate and the twins a hollow dipper without the splash plate. can anyone suggest a logical reason for this?

cheers,

brian

listerdiesel

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Re: Crankcase Splash Plate?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2006, 01:11:20 PM »
The original engines did not have the plate, I can check on the 'Changed Number' records to see when the plate was added, but it was to reduce the splashing of oil against the inspection plate, which was a leakage point on the early engines.

The Lister D petrol engine similarly had no splash plate, this was added later.

The Changed Number records are a large volume of factory part change records, detailing when changes occurred on the range of engines up to the late 1940's. I have a set of sheets that I can refer to when asked about dating a part change.

Peter

hotater

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Re: Crankcase Splash Plate?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2006, 03:23:27 PM »
Shows how dumb I am--- I  thought the 'splash plate' was added to just shaped the floor of the sump to the Vee shape now cast as part of the floor.
 They had a SLOT for the dipper?!  How far back did the plate extend into the sump?  Anybody got a picture of one?  How was it attached?  Where?  How heavy is the metal?  It's obvious the mental picture I had of the 'splash plate' is all together wrong and I'm suddenly scrambling to keep up.    ???
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

binnie

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Re: Crankcase Splash Plate?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2006, 03:56:39 PM »
If I am not mistaken, I believe GF showed us a pict of this metal plate installed in the sump of his SOM. Damned if I can find it now! You might check back on his most recent picts. It wasn't too long ago. binnie.
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

Quinnf

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Re: Crankcase Splash Plate?
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2006, 03:57:55 PM »
Jack,

I might be wrong about the slot.  I'm looking at a drawing in one of the manuals and it's in profile, but it appears that the dipper penetrates the splash plate, hence the need for either a slot or detail in the drawing that indicates it was bent into a "V" beneath the dipper.  Seems with all the original CS 6/1s changing hands that someone could take a peek inside with a digital camera and post a pic.  

My diagram (actually it's in the PS manual, Jack, you have one) indicates the splash (or anti-splash?) plate had a lip that engaged the edge of the upper sump, then rose up against the back of the case (I'm mentally peering in the large CC inspection hatch) where it was secured by a bolt.  

I just wonder what they were trying to accomplish.  Could it be as simple as keeping the access hatch from leaking like a newborn, or was there a lubrication-related purpose that we don't know about?  

Quinn
« Last Edit: September 21, 2006, 04:03:51 PM by Quinnf »
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

Quinnf

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Re: Crankcase Splash Plate?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2006, 04:01:10 PM »
Thanks, Binnie, I'll look for it when I have time.  Searching through Guy's posts will take some!

Quinn
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

Quinnf

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Re: Crankcase Splash Plate?
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2006, 04:31:11 PM »
Just found a drawing of it.  Seems David Edgington (may his name be praised!) received permission to post the original manual from Lister.  It's copyrighted 1986.
The diagram in question can be found on page 35 of the .pdf manual that you can view at http://www.woodnstuff.ca/images/dursley.pdf

The plate (pt. no. 116) does indeed have a slot in it and it appears to be flat, not v-shaped.

Is a puzzlement.

Quinn

Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

hotater

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Re: Crankcase Splash Plate?
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2006, 05:17:05 PM »
Well I be danged!!    :P

I saw that in the FuKing book and figured it went outside somewhere...it made no sense.

Thanks for that link. It worked for the first time.  INTERESTING booklet!!!

That original book answers a lot of questions, but it sure muddies the water about this plate!!

IF every engine had a hollow dipper it would make perfect sense to have the plate....the slot in the middle allows the dipper to hit  *still* oil.  Oil that has a solid cover that prevents sloshing, foaming, cavitation and such.  BUT with a solid dipper it would seem to prevent the splash the engine depends on!!

We need the dimensions of the plate and some pictures inside an original crankcase.  They did some VERY well tested and thought out design work in regards to lubrication.  I have an idea that IF we make the 'Roids  EXACTLY like the late originals we'll find the secret to longevity in the bottom end.

I think we're faced with trying to add  back the design features the Indians didn't understand and therefore ignored and deleted.   Another sign of idiocy on their part, I think.

The GOOD news is that it seems a simple part to fabricate, but we HAVE to be sure the overall size and shape of the sumps are the same before adding a part.  The Indians  MIGHT have tried to accomplish the same thing with a shape/size change in the sump and the addition of the plate might insure *failure*.

It's time to take Guy Fawlks approach and assume the England version was  RIGHT, and try to 're-adjust' an Indian version to be as close as possible.
  What's needed is a #!*&% original engine!!!
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

listerdiesel

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Re: Crankcase Splash Plate?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2006, 05:54:07 PM »
We have a 6/1 disassembled in the workshop at home, I'll get the plate out later and measure it up and post the details.

I can also do a CAD drawing of it if that would help, but would have to be after the weekend as we are doing flash testing this weekend on a 750V DC rail supply system so will be out most of Saturday. Sunday, will be recovering from the trip!

Peter

emerald

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Re: Crankcase Splash Plate?
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2006, 06:24:07 PM »
All my CS engines have that plate, the oldest is 1935.


Emerald

hotater

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Re: Crankcase Splash Plate?
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2006, 07:27:37 PM »
What's really needed is the *relationship* between the plate and the rotation of the crank and the bottom and sides of the sump to assure the design works the same.  I don't want to be adding spokes to a tubeless tire.   :o
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

binnie

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Re: Crankcase Splash Plate?
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2006, 07:42:44 PM »
Hotater,
Only speculating here. But I wonder if the plate wasn't installed in the deeper original sumps (that would more easily accomodate it) to trap any heavy sediments in the bottom & keep them from being recycled over the crank? Merely a thought. Binnie
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

listerdiesel

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Re: Crankcase Splash Plate?
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2006, 08:25:40 PM »
Pictures of a Lister plate are at:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Misc/ListerPlate1.jpg
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Misc/ListerPlate2.jpg
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Misc/ListerPlate3.jpg

They are large pictures to show the detail, one slot for a bolt, one slot for the dipper and that's it.

Peter