Author Topic: ST Gen Head & Electronics  (Read 6159 times)

Joe

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ST Gen Head & Electronics
« on: September 19, 2006, 12:38:23 PM »
Any of you have any expertise on the effect an ST generator head will have on an electronic aquastat….I spec’d out a new heat plant for the house and was careful not to get electronic ignition …did not however pick up on the fact that the aquastat is electronic verses the electro-mechanical type until it was unpacked and too late to return….

The 6/1 ST5 will run this boiler as backup…

Joe
Nothing is easy...if it were...anybody could do it.

2005 Power Solutions  6/1-ST5

dkwflight

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Re: ST Gen Head & Electronics
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2006, 12:53:06 PM »
Hi If it is as tolerant as my TV.....NO Problem.
If it is like mt UPS....IT won't work.


You won't know until; you try
Good luck
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

Rainbow-Farm

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Re: ST Gen Head & Electronics
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2006, 04:47:20 PM »
Joe: I am assuming that an aquastat is some type of thermostat. Have you found out any more about this?

DKW: I am surprised that a UPS would be a problem. Do you have any more details on what goes wrong, maybe the brand, what you think might cause it not to function.

I am now using APC Line-R voltage regulators on TV, computer, and did so because of a friend who kept losing appliances to bad electricity from the utility company. The Line-Rs have eliminated those problems.

I had a power supply go bad on a computer flat screen. It was on an APC UPS box. When I connected it directly to the mains, it ran okay and the screen powered up. This caused me grief and service calls over many months (until we eliminated every other possible cause and were left with only the power supply), and dragging around an old CRT screen to use when the flat screen was inoperative. So... I put it onto the Line-R as well. When new, the power supply worked okay for several months, but acted up after I moved it (but not immediately after I moved it). It may be a manufacturing defect, may be related to the UPS, or may be related to "country" electricity.

All this started me wondering whether the external voltage regulator (like the APC) might be a good thing to use on questionable applications/devices/appliances, when running on ST power.

Do not trust the "grid" folks!

Joe

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Re: ST Gen Head & Electronics
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2006, 12:01:36 AM »
RF,
Nothing new to add...a guy I know that services this type of boiler says they have had zero problems with them electronically...time will tell...
Joe
Nothing is easy...if it were...anybody could do it.

2005 Power Solutions  6/1-ST5

dkwflight

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Re: ST Gen Head & Electronics
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2006, 02:15:55 AM »
Hi I am useing a APC Pro-1100 UPS and I am now using APC Line-R voltage regulator 1200.
The UPS acts like there is no power when the ST-head is running.
The gen is a power solutions ST-20.
I haven't had the time to dig into the ups yet. There may be adjustments that can be made.
The other symtom is a shaded pole motor in my A/C. It is quiet on mains power and noisey on generated power. It has run 8hrs on generated power so I am not concerned.
The engine sags quite a bit when the A/C starts,usualy down to 58hz or a little more.
The engine iis a Power Solutions 28/2 running at 650rpm.It could stand to have heavier flywheels. I have some flicker issues.
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

Rainbow-Farm

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Re: ST Gen Head & Electronics
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2006, 06:33:22 PM »
That is odd about the UPS. Your gear is similar to mine, so I will check out the UPS when I get juice coming out of the ST.
Do not trust the "grid" folks!

Ray C

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Re: ST Gen Head & Electronics
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2006, 12:24:27 AM »

Hey Folks,

Most UPS units have a sensitivity setting that changes the threshold at which they kick-in.  Check the instruction manual.  If you lost the instruction manual, check for one on the manufacturer's web site.


Ray



Hi If it is as tolerant as my TV.....NO Problem.
If it is like mt UPS....IT won't work.


You won't know until; you try
Good luck
Dennis

ronmar

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Re: ST Gen Head & Electronics
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2006, 04:42:53 AM »

Hey Folks,

Most UPS units have a sensitivity setting that changes the threshold at which they kick-in.  Check the instruction manual.  If you lost the instruction manual, check for one on the manufacturer's web site.


Ray
Correct...  Most modern UPS's will also require a computer connected with the appropriate comms software(APC's is called "PowerWare" I think)  to adjust the voltage and frequency tollerances and configure it's reactions to internal alarms.  some others will have a dip switch on the back for setting these windows.

Most modern UPS's require that the input be within the set parameters for volt/freq(good input power) before they can be started.  Most modern UPS's provide very little filtration of the line power comming thru them.  It is passed from input directly to output load.  The UPS just monitors it and takes a little to keep the batteries peaked.  If the volt/freq goes out of tolerance, then the inverter kicks in(in less than 1/2 cycle, too fast for the load to really see) and feeds the load for as long as the batteries have power or untill the input returns inside the set parameters, at which time it will re-connect the input power directly to the load.  The older UPS's I used to work with were true powerline filters.  They also made a lot of heat and consumed a lot of energy in the conversion processes(AC to DC to AC).  The load equipment ran on the AC generated by the inverter. The input was converted to DC and maintained at a level to float charge the battery bank and provide enough current to power the inverter.  As a failsafe, if the inverter stopped feeding output power, a relay would open and connect the input directly to the output bypassing the failed UPS.

Dkwflight:  Freq usually dosn't vary much from source to load, but the line voltage can vary greatly from source to load depending on your wireing and the ammount of current being drawn.  If your UPS works fine on commercial power, but won't startup on your generator with good volt/freq at the point where it is plugged in, you either have a bad ground that is faulting the UPS or you have some other noise on the line that is confuseing the monitor circuitry of the UPS.  Other noise might be seen as a jittery volt and freq reading on a meter(transients too short for the meter to fully react to) but would be readilly evident on an oscilloscope.  Have you tried plugging the UPS into commercial to get it started and allow it to fully charge, Then unplug it from commercial(simulated power fail) and plug it into your generator output?

Most electronics are pretty forgiving of the input as most all the power used internal to them is DC converted and filtered from the input AC.  Probably the worst are large positive spikes that overwhelm the filtration and brownouts that drop the available converted DC below the level at which the DC regulator can maintain proper output.  The UPS should be adequate(and fast enough) to protect from these things.  A lot of appliances on the other hand work with AC in to save space inside cramped appliance cases/control panels.  The storms and power fluxuations we had here last week handgrenaded the control board on my dishwasher which is on a circuit breaker to raw AC.  The entertainment center, computers and pellet stove hummed along happily thru the power fluxuations on their respective UPS's.   
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

trigzy

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Re: ST Gen Head & Electronics
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2006, 07:50:26 PM »
List,
     I might add something I noticed while playing with a mid-grade multi-meter, and some misc gen heads.  Often times, especially on units with harmonic excitation, some multi-meters would register 120kHz on the Freq. setting, when it was quite obvious that only 60Hz power was being produced, and in fact the meter was picking up the frequency of the noise.  If your UPS has the same style of frequency detector, it may be causing a similiar reading in the UPS, causing it to stay on batteries.

Steve
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dkwflight

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Re: ST Gen Head & Electronics
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2006, 01:48:41 AM »
Hi
I run on commercial power and the UPS works fine. When I switch over to generated power it's like I didn't. I found no internal adjustments in the UPS. I don't have the software that works with this UPS.
I have an "O" scope coming to see what the power looks like.  I will post the pic of the scope when I can.
Thanks
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

hotater

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Re: ST Gen Head & Electronics
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2006, 11:15:02 PM »
I've tried four different UPS units and none of them work for long, if at all. 
Computer power supplies are cheap,  buy a bunch.  I used four in  2 1/2" years.
 I've finally fried all the computers but a laptop and an exteral HD.

BUT!!!  There's a bunch of bad power supplys, computers, and parts left over from the other people that were here before me.  They powered by 35Kw Onan.  Obviously whatever it is it's not limited to the ST heads.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

dale

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Re: ST Gen Head & Electronics
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2006, 01:19:45 AM »
I remember a story about when they first started interconnecting power plants throughout the north.  One plant (Chicago I think) went down and all other plants went off grid.  They decided that since the one that went down was the largest,  it was the dynamo that all others synced to, thus they could not sync together and disconnected (or shut down) and there was a large blackout.

The UPS will not transfer back from battery until the sine wave is stable on the line side for a time because often when the grid come back the power is unstable for a while.  As a rule of thumb a generator should be at least twice the size of the UPS for it to see it as adequate power, and if the generator is is not producing a good sine wave at a stable frequency it doesn't matter how big it is.

I used to do a lot of backup systems and found this problem quite often when a customer would add a generator to an existing UPS system or an UPS to a generator backed up system and both were similarly sized.  The solution was to buy a larger generator.  One could install a charger for the UPS batteries that was run off generator power until the grid comes back, but don't expect a warranty on the UPS to be good.