Need original 6-1 head info---

[hotater]

The lucky owners of original CS engines could do us a favor with pictures and measurements of the cylinder liner protrusion above the block....if any ??  Any information from reliable sources what that protrusion should be?  Head gasket thickness dimensions?

It seems odd some have terrible headgasket problems and some don't.  When comparing FuKing 6-1 protrusion with new Jkson's  HALF protrusion, it gives me wonderment.

Surprisingly accurate depth measurements can be made with a dial or vernier caliper by laying a straigt piece of stock across the liner and measuring from the top of the straight edge to the block and subtracting the thickness of the 'support' for the vernier.
 I use a piece of Starrett O-1 tool steel stock and gradually use pieces of it for parts until I have to buy another stick for a straight edge.   

[snail]

Hotater,
          The dursley listers don't have liners! There is no protrusion, no "gramophone" rings, just a plain flat surface and a couple of extra head bolts. I'm sure that the liner protrusion issue is critical to a listeroid but I didn't measure mine. I dont have a leakage problem, but I'd bet I have less liner protrusion than most.
         I take it your originals are still in transit.How many hours to go?


Cheers,

Brian

[hotater]

'Preciate it, snail---

My engines are hiding, I think.  I'm still hoping others will take the plunge and snag an a original.

Has anyone got an original Lister head gasket to show?  Could it be the Indians are making sleevless head gaskets for sleeved engines??

[snail]

Your wish is my command!

http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10065/normal_head%20gaskets.jpg

The grotty looking one is what came out, the shiny one's going in. Both appear to be made to the same spec: bottom copper .005", top copper .015", total thickness .063". The two larger stud holes are for the locating dowels (not fitted to my powerline)

cheers,

Brian

[xyzer]

I noticed on my CS 6/1 kit engine the head was faced on a lathe. Not toatally a bad thing but lathes can easly not face flat. If there (indians) manufacturing equipment is worn like I suspect it can be low or high towards the center of rotation. I was planning to get the head decked to be sure of flattness. Has anyone checked there head for flattness? I need to look at the barrel because if it was done on the same lathe the error is doubled! Just a thought on the head gasket issue.......
Dave

[hotater]

Good pics, Snail--

That gasket, except for the two additional holes *looks* the same as the Indian replacements.  That sure begs the question about the liner sticking up above the deck!!

Dave---  As far as I know, there have been cases of cylinder blocks out of square (I have one now) and out flatness, and heads that weren't flat, and cylinders not square with the top and bottom.  An auto machine shop is set up to measure and fix all of those problems and it's not expensive work, either.  Just remember that any material that comes off the parts has to be accounted for in paper shims to set the piston/head clearances.   .065" seems a good number to shoot for.

[hotater]

UPDATE---

By reading the original Lister manual and getting feedback from a wide variety of sources this is what I've found out.....

The originals didn't have liners so the top of the cylinder block was flat.

The originals were shimmed so that the top of the piston at TDC and the top of the cylinder were the SAME!!  (So assemble the engine without rings and shims and run it to TDC and measure the amount sticking up and thats how much shim is needed when it goes together for good...simple!)

The Indians seem to think the liner should be 'proud' by .007 to .010".   I'm not sure why except that the block must grow by that amount when hot...that doesn't seem likely that the block would grow that much MORE than the liner, but maybe so.

SO-- the piston to head clearance test with lead shot is to assure a clearance of  the thickness of a compressed head gasket plus the allowable slop in the big end bearinrg (.003").  It should be a total of .055 to .058".

  Wow!  So it's set up for the piston to kiss the head each stroke.  No wonder coking is a performance killer.

I think we've found why some engines weep water and blow head gaskets, too.   With the head proped up on a .030 liner lip and pulled down at the corners and the front, it leaves three 'arches' to leak,  both sides and under the COV.

SHaZam!!

[listerdiesel]

Liners had positive clearance with the head gasket to hold them in place, they invariably sunk a bit as the machining marks settled, so your 0.030" soon became less, probably 0.010" to 0.015". The Indians run at a higher CR than Listers, who had the luxury of fairly wide fire ring areas on their gaskets, PLUS no liner lip and flat head and block.

We used to have horrendous problems with Scania DS8 engines with block regression and gasket blowing. Done quite a few block revoveries in my time with machining of the liner recess, new brass shims and new liners. The DS10 never had a problem, but was much more in hand of the job it was doing than the smaller DS8.

Bump clearance is set with thin paper gaskets on all the Listers, in practice it was usually 5 paper gaskets and no measurement. The later air-cooled engines needed something better so the lead wire method was adopted to check piston to head cleance.

Peter

[hotater]

Very informative.  Thank you. The 'little proud' make perfect sense to locate and hold the gasket.

  I would say that the natural compression and settling between the two parts would be closer to  .002"  than to .020", though.   Setting headspace on rifles is not too much different where the depth of the reamed chamber is commonly .002 deeper than the measurement of the mating surfaces would indicate.  After torquing the receiver to the barrel about three times the .002 disappears and the headspace is dead perfect.

[listerdiesel]

Bump clearance is set with thin paper gaskets on all the Listers

Correction,

That should be the CS Listers only, the JP, JK, CD, CE, FR all had blocks integral with the crankcases.

Peter