Author Topic: Modern systems on old Lister designs  (Read 3950 times)

dkmc

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Modern systems on old Lister designs
« on: January 01, 2006, 06:16:34 PM »
Ray Kurzweil was on C-Span this morning talking about modern technonlgy and how (among LOTS of other things) power generation will become decenteralized in the not-so-distant future. He's thinkin Solar. I' m thinkin Listeroids have their place in their
someplace too. At least till solar cells get super efficent and dirt cheap...

http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1

So brings up the topic:
Another aspect of Listeroid power I'm interested in, is the adaption of modern technology to the Listeroid design, which we all
agree is quite sound and may be a bit over-engineered.
Too much of that (modern technology) might have a reverse (and adverse) effect, but I think its good to at least toss ideas and theories around.

The typical and obvious have already been named:
Improved oiling/ filtering, synthetic oils, electric starters, glow plugs,etc.
Turbocharging and supercharging sound very interesting.
I wonder how economy could be improved by adapting a modern high pressure (possibly computer controlled) fuel injection system?
There certainly seems to be 'enough' iron and bearing area in the design to handle increased power output.
The tradeoff usually comes in decreased life and reliability, but with typical lifespans measured in decades, how much tradeoff is that really?  I am considering a power generation system that will have to be as efficient as possible, and also reliable and low maintence.
I am willing to break from tradition and employ any and all modern technology to the Lister design to achieve that goal.

Some gadgets I'd like to see evolve:

Low cost electronic govener (a kit or DIY plans would be great) 

Auto start/shutdown

Remote monitoring

Variable speed/variable load inverter generator,
(the engine speed can vary from idle to full depending on load,  but the frequency is maintained at 60cyc.
This is becoming more common in RV generators now)

Possibly all the above wrapped up in an EMS  (engine management system) 

Please post your thoughts ......


dan k

 

 

n2toh

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Re: Modern systems on old Lister designs
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2006, 07:40:47 PM »
Ray Kurzweil was on C-Span this morning talking about modern technonlgy and how (among LOTS of other things) power generation will become decenteralized in the not-so-distant future. He's thinkin Solar. I' m thinkin Listeroids have their place in their
someplace too. At least till solar cells get super efficent and dirt cheap...

http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1

So brings up the topic:
Another aspect of Listeroid power I'm interested in, is the adaption of modern technology to the Listeroid design, which we all
agree is quite sound and may be a bit over-engineered.
Too much of that (modern technology) might have a reverse (and adverse) effect, but I think its good to at least toss ideas and theories around.

The typical and obvious have already been named:
Improved oiling/ filtering, synthetic oils, electric starters, glow plugs,etc.
Turbocharging and supercharging sound very interesting.
I wonder how economy could be improved by adapting a modern high pressure (possibly computer controlled) fuel injection system?
There certainly seems to be 'enough' iron and bearing area in the design to handle increased power output.
The tradeoff usually comes in decreased life and reliability, but with typical lifespans measured in decades, how much tradeoff is that really?¬  I am considering a power generation system that will have to be as efficient as possible, and also reliable and low maintence.
I am willing to break from tradition and employ any and all modern technology to the Lister design to achieve that goal.

Some gadgets I'd like to see evolve:

Low cost electronic govener (a kit or DIY plans would be great)¬ 

Auto start/shutdown

Remote monitoring

Variable speed/variable load inverter generator,
(the engine speed can vary from idle to full depending on load,¬  but the frequency is maintained at 60cyc.
This is becoming more common in RV generators now)

Possibly all the above wrapped up in an EMS¬  (engine management system)¬ 

Please post your thoughts ......


dan k

 

 

If we are to go that route we need look no further than the Volkswagen TDI, It was based on a design by Eslbrat for burning vegtable oil.

Basicaly direct injection with the combustion chamber in the piston. The chamber shape causes a reentrant torodial gas flow.
Computer control and turbo charging will also improve power and emisions.
About 60 years is all it takes to make science fiction a reality.

cujet

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Re: Modern systems on old Lister designs
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2006, 09:55:42 PM »
Well, I have every intention of using modern tech on my engine. However one must consider that the Indian Listers fall short of the original design. It may be that bringing the engine up to original quality is all that is necessary. Even so, there are so many advancements, it is tempting to use them all!

Chris
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Doug

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Re: Modern systems on old Lister designs
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2006, 08:06:05 PM »
I love my TDI Jetta wagon, especialy with fuel at 92 cents a liter....

I don't know what can easily be done to improve the Engine/Generator combination but on the load management side there are some simple things that can be done. I'm a big fan of the Modicon A120 series controllers. This series of industrial automation is built around the idea of using the function blocks of its bigger brother 800 series (no out of production in favour of the Quantum series, yikes thats expensive stuff!!) but in a small mini PLC package. Also neat are the Micro series (not the new one made in France they suck, I speak of the old little shoe box machines that used the same function blocks as the A120 and 800 series) because the could also be added to with expansion modules from the A120.

Now thats a whole lot of technical crap eh???
What can one do with PLC and a genset???
Well you could use it monitor fuel consumption, temperature, oil presure and load. You could use one to manage your load by diverting power to batteries for charging and sheding load AC power demand rises. We could even get fancy and use it as an engine management computure to monitor boost on a Turbo lister or duel fuel install to with propane injection.
I can think of kinds of things one could do with a little automation but is this cost effective?
Do you realy want to go to the trouble of buying something like this on Ebay and learning how to program it?

Well I have 2  A120-145 controllers at home I toy with, along with some Micros and the grand old man himself a Big 800 series and last but no least one of them fancy computer touch screan HMI interfaces (A TCP Quick panel jr.) that can talk to each each or all of these at the same time(BTW non of this is for sale don't ask). You know what I don't use this stuff to do anything around my home, because its just as easy to turn on a light by hand or adjust my thermostat by hand and I don't a generator at this time that starts, stops and manages itself.

For those who do, an ebay search of PLC will lead you to all kinds of stuff, but do your home work Some lines like the AB stuff needs expensive software,  Siemens LOGO is nice (all in one unit you program directly from its face plate or a PC ) but the programing language is baffling even to me, Modicon is nice and there is a 25 network demo version of of Proworks you can use to program but I'm biased. There is also the other route you go and by kits that let you do mostly all the same stuff from a PC.

Doug

kyradawg

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Re: Modern systems on old Lister designs
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2006, 10:19:30 PM »
.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 07:33:07 PM by kyradawg »

rocket

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Re: Modern systems on old Lister designs
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2006, 10:34:19 PM »
 ??? alot of that was way over my head, but i do see a common thread.. the vw tdi rules  ;D
my 2000 beetle tdi now has over 305k miles on it and still going. vw tdis and lister cs diesels. life is good

n2toh

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Re: Modern systems on old Lister designs
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2006, 10:44:06 PM »
??? alot of that was way over my head, but i do see a common thread.. the vw tdi rules  ;D
my 2000 beetle tdi now has over 305k miles on it and still going. vw tdis and lister cs diesels. life is good

Rocket are you the one with the diesel motorcycle?
About 60 years is all it takes to make science fiction a reality.