Author Topic: Powerline 10/1 inspection  (Read 48374 times)

biobill

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Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2006, 02:54:39 AM »
  Doug,
 I think the problem is that you are shopping too 'upscale' . Try Home Depot - the aisle with the toilets and sinks. ;D
               Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

Doug

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Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2006, 03:02:51 AM »
Your kidding me...

My Roid is part toilet?

That explains so much lol....

No seriously I'll check that out maybe plumbing fixtures is the solution.

Thank you for the tip

Doug

Doug

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Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2006, 06:58:17 PM »
Uploaded some more pictures

http://www.putfile.com/dougwp/images/31565

Found some scary stuff this week. Down right ugly pits and voids in the fly wheel.

Atul Patel tells me he has had issues with some casting because they suplier covers over some problems like this with graphite and epoxy.

He also says this he will try and have this problem corrected for future engines.

The Machinist spinning these should have noticed? Why didn't he report it?

I guess I need to ask Atul that question next email.

Doug

mobile_bob

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Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2006, 07:31:42 PM »
Doug:

i think your questions re why the machinist didnt report it will fall on deaf ears

while these voids are unacceptable by first world standards, they are acceptable in 2nd and 3rd world.

after seeing the post and pics on where and how these castings are made, is it any wonder there are voids,
they could make the patterns thicker in section to allow for more material to be turned away thus cutting out the voids, but that
takes extra time and consumables, neither of which they are likely going to invest in.

what do you bet they never screen the casting sand, just use a rake and a hoe to break it up a bit, and go for it.

atlas foundry here in tacoma, casts mostly in steel these days, because of some of these issues
they find that cast steel can be ground and welded to repair castings before they are sent out for machineing.
and i am sure the screen and temper their sand very well.

an alternative filler is epoxy resin and cast iron filings from a brake lathe (free for the taking) and make for a very dense
and very close in consistancy and finish to the original cast iron part.

personally i might take a die grinder and carbide cutter to clean out and remove any flaws that might lead to a crack
before filling, but that is me.

nice job detailing the engine, cat yellow is not my favorite, but it sure looks sweet. :)

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Doug

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Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2006, 11:23:00 PM »
I thought about grinding out the voids but after the bead blast revealed them a little better I decided this wasn't much of the threat. These voids look like they were caused by gassing from the sand being a little more wet than it should have been.
The epoxy I used has Iron in it, this was specialy chosen and ordered for this task.
I doubt I'll have any trouble with this, but for Piece of mind I'm derating the engine from 1800 to 1400 rpm.

Doug

Doug

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Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2006, 02:19:08 AM »
What hellish stuff I chose to fill the voids. Sticks to everything and hard to work. Its hard like th iron now that its set for a week. IF you do what I did use it sparingly and don't think it s going to be a cake walk to shape and clean like bondo.

After much missery ready to prime and paint....

Doug

Doug

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Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2006, 12:09:29 AM »
The fly wheel has been a source of concern for me. I don't like what I found under the paint. The builder is also uncomfortable about what I found and has stated this is an area that they need to look at.

Progress has been made at PEC on the Lister types and now they admit the Petters need closer examination to try and bring them closer to a western product.

Structuraly I don't think I have a problem, estheticaly it looked like sin but tonight I primed and things are getting better.

http://www.putfile.com/dougwp/images/31565

Doug

Doug

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Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2006, 06:52:33 PM »
Today I finaly opened the bottom end and stated looking....

http://www.putfile.com/dougwp/images/31565

Notice the scratches in the bearings and a few odd looking polished marks. The pictures don't do justice the resolution isn't great. The bore does show a few marks but nothing realy bad. 2/3 of the rings were lined up, (big suprize) but the piston is in good shap very little indication any sand was in the machine.

Now that things are lightened up a bit I'm able to look a little more closely at the cam gear. Seems to be a little more backlash than I'd like. I need a dial indicator to tell me exactly what I have. You can't eye ball backlash.

Not shown, no half gaskets or anything wierd, the shims for setting the bump clearnce ( and there are 4 of them ) are steel and look like goo quality... shims ( what do I know about shims? I better post a picture of that next ).

Magnets in the oil screen for the pump pick up grabbed most of the iron. But if you run your fingers in enough places you will find stuff, gritty things and the odd machining burr.

Valve lifter feel smooth and when you rotate the cam they seem to spin.

Noticed some dirt inside the cam on the govener rod.

To be continued.....

Next I have to make some timing marks and pull the rest of the guts out. I suspect I need new bearings all the way around and possibly a new cam bearing. But things are looking up no real damage as I had feared,

Doug

Doug

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Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2006, 10:53:29 PM »
I just set up to get some better images of the con rod bearings and uploaded.

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4367132

This picture give you a better veiw of the damage done durring the test run at the works in India.
This extreme close up actualy lets you see the embedded material in the shell. I don't thinks this is sand so much as just bad luck and grit got in there. The Petter oiling system doesn't full filter so any material that get washed out of a crack or crevice is going to run the lube system several times beofre the filter catches it.

I think maybe there were some grindings in the crank oil galleryl. Under bright light the imbedded stuff in the brass glitters...

The jounal has some scratches but they are much finer than the bearing material. There's a pattern to the wear on the shell as well and I think the rod may not have been clean on assembly...

Doug

 

hotater

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Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2006, 01:10:36 AM »
Doug--

I have a stereo microscope....that material is probably 'silcon carbide' and 'aluminum oxide'.  If it glitters it's almost certainly abrasive  and is probably left over from grinding the OD of the piston.  It collects inside the piston and falls back out when they install the piston and rod into the block. 
You can imagine pallets of pistons in a room full of grinders all standing bottom up.

 There's a possibility the *premium* engines get a final crosshatch with the block in place, too! 

Casting 'sand' looks duller and the grains are a jumble of shapes and sizes with a lot of non-magnetic slag.  Actually, in the several engines I've looked at, casting sand is rare except under the paint and in the cam bearing (for some odd reason).  The solid majority of 'sand' is actually black silicon carbide and aluminum oxide grains of 280 and 320 grit, but it's mostly splinters.  According to my 'forensic abrasives' guy that means it was deposited from a working operation.  (not sabotaged with 'new' grit)

Carefully scrape that bearing with a new razor blade keeping the edge flat to the bearing surface.  No gouging.  Use your finger with a drop of oil to feel for stray grains that need more work.  MT-I has run over a thousand hours on re-cleaned shells.

NEVER throw away a bearing!!!  The one that NEEDS changing is a lot worse than the old scrap one on the shelf.   ;)
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Doug

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Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2006, 01:42:17 AM »
First thing threw my mind was your scrape with a razor trick Jack....

My gut feeling is your also right about the abrasive from grinding, andf I think it cam out of the crank. they probably forgot to wash put and blow clear the oil galleries.

I have a spare crank and two sets of bearings. The piston is aluminum and clean, so was the spare but the cam that was also ground seems to have abrasive crud in it.

The Petter 10/1 tare down is drawing to a close. I know I'm going to find the same on the main bearings and the cam bearings.

So far:
Bad casting for the head off set ports.
2 sets of valve guides not so far off spec can't be used.
3 sets of valve keeper and retainers all junk bad fitting.
poorly polished oush rods, still servicable.
2 off set and will probably leak water inlets on the cylinder block and spare.
Burs on the cam gears the spare far worse than the one in the engine.
voids in the fly wheel casting, possibly bad fly wheel.
Stripped studs on the rocker box and oil filter inspection cover.
Smashed in Gib key.
Stripped Banjo bolt lube for the rockler box.
Missing O ring for the decompressor lever.
Ruined bearings full of grit

Last things to check are the actual clearances on the rod and main bearings.

At this stage I guess I have to say this engine is probably not worth trouble. I haven't even started looking at things that could cause trouble like the alignment of the cylinder to the crank.

Final tally, aproaching 1700 cdn for engine, duties, taxes, shipping ect and costs associated with trying to fix what I found as I went along.

No one is importing Petter types that I am aware of at this time. No aprts are available to speak of.

Any one steps forward needing Petter parts or electric start parts I'll probably brake the Petter up and sell off the bits.

If not I may put it together and at least start it once, but I think its going to the scrap yard. Pitty so many of the parts and castings looked so good....

Doug

hotater

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Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2006, 02:19:27 AM »
Doug--

It sounds like you have a case of the 3 am Dreads and the OD on Indian goober paint all at the same time!!

I have some friends in the steel business.  He looked at your flywheel pictures last night.  Here's the deal according to Neal:

The voids and pits and orangepeel that we see is there simply because the Indians scrimp on iron.  Instead of cast a rough part and turn it smooth and pretty, they cast a part to 'right' size and turn the slag off of part of it.  He suggest turning it smooth and if you want to add back the weight, add a piece of steel plate to the back side.

Also-- two inch thick plate flywheel 24 inches in diameter is 500 pounds each!! 
Hundred fifty pound flywheels are only 18 inches in diameter from two inch plate.
 It's easy to make a flywheel from steel.  Then there's no doubt about safety.

That way you can certify your own.    ;)

ducking some...
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

mobile_bob

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Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2006, 03:38:51 AM »
yes and while you got your machinist turning it, you can have him add the serp belt grooves as well :)
and if you have room have him cut two sets,,, you can never have too many grooves in my book

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

hotater

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Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2006, 04:40:07 AM »
As your machinist I just threw you out the door, Bob.  ;)

 Those grooves were designed by the Tooling Devil himself and the larger the diameter the harder they are to cut.   ;D ;D

I have a method of dodging hard work that's done me proud...when something is *really* hard work....find a good reason why it's not the *best* way, either.

A ribbed belt running on a smooth flywheel leaves six 'track'.  It's self cleaning because it doesn't NEED the traction the tapered ribs give.  SO,  I've decided by Belk's Dodge #2, that it's best to have big wheels smooth and little wheels grooved.   ;D
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Doug

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Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2006, 09:15:06 PM »
Well I apreciat your support Jack and Bob.

I'm going to think about this thing for a while....

Doug