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Listeroid Engines / Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Last post by Hugh Conway on May 25, 2019, 10:33:14 PM »
The eBay product sold by Gasketnation is a good quality item. They have been in biz for a long time, and can make gaskets for just about anything if either they or you have a pattern. I did ask them if the gasket for 7 stud engines would work on the 5 stud listeroids. They did not recommend it at that time. I have used these on my Dursley without fail. Mixed results on my 5 stud listeroid, currently using a cheap-o Indian head gasket soaked in silicone sealer. to keep it from weeping coolant through the cardboard like layer sandwiched between the copper.
The gasket(s) under the cylinder are for setting bump clearance. They can be paper or aluminium or a combination of both to get the right clearance. Normal practice is to install several, measure bump clearance, then tear out sufficient number and thickness of the base gaskets to give correct bump. The base gaskets and the head gaskets are completely different animals.
Listeroid Engines / Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Last post by broncodriver99 on May 25, 2019, 10:18:32 PM »
Gary at DES or Central Maine Diesel should have them. There is also up in Canada.

I picked up a couple of these and will give them a try when I get that far. I bought the first ones. Not sure what the difference is. They are for the original 7 stud head but I would think they would work on an Indian head as well.
General Discussion / Re: Welding on clean DC
« Last post by mikenash on May 25, 2019, 07:02:21 PM »
Hi Bruce

Sounds like progress

Modern inverter welders have made us lazy to an extent as they are so "smart" at holding an arc, whereas the old machines with no electronics weren't as user-friendly and you needed to master the art of striking and maintaining an arc

At work we have a good-quality BOC inverter welder to which I have attached heavy cables with good quality clamps.  We also have a little cheap shitter with thin cables and just a spring-clip earth clamp like a car jumper lead - it works almost as well as the good one, up to about 130A

I would say that it shouldn't as there must be lots of resistance in the cheap cables etc etc?  But I would guess that the electronics just "try harder" in its case perhaps?

I mention this because, maybe, in your case - absent electronics - the setup has to be pretty right?  If that's the case, then a couple of thoughts:

FWIW I wouldn't use the type of earth cable with a spring clamp like jumper leads - I like the ones that are like a small G clamp.  Ditto with the electrode holder - rather than the "sprung" ones, I like the ones where you turn the handle to open and close the orifice that the electrode goes into.  Equally, I would think the same would apply at both terminals of the battery and at the ends of your choke?

IMHO "big is good" when it comes to battery clamps of any kind and high-current DC loads - I'm sure you understand that; probably better than I do

I have made many sets of long, heavy jumper leads - in our work we'll often find something like a 6-cylinder John Deere engine driving a pump and which has a flat battery but which we can't get a vehicle nice & close to - so we need long leads.  Because we put down lots & lots of submersible pumps we tend to have off-cut lengths of the cables we use for them lying around and I use that.  I don't know what the MM2 of them is but 'd say the soft copper wire core would be 10mm in diameter?  I always buy the biggest, meanest clamps I can find off the NARVA catalogue at Repco - rated something like 400A - and big heavy copper lugs to attach them to the clamps.   The reason I mention this is, I wonder if scrap metal merchants would have lengths of something like that lying about?

I have often observed - coming across a motorist with a flat battery being "helped" somewhere by another motorist with a pair of gas-station jumper leads - that they just won't do the job; I guess the accumulated resistance in the thin cables and tinfoil clamps just overcomes the batteries ability to supply current.  As soon as I dig out the big cables from the ute - then things tend to turn over and start straight away

Your welder is an interesting project.  I'll watch with interest. 

And, yes, if the Low Hydrogen electrode comes out of the oven too hot to touch without using leather gloves - then it's arc is smooth and it "flows" lovely.  I don't know if the same is true of all electrodes, but I guess it is - I think maybe the coating is hygroscopic?

Good luck
Listeroid Engines / heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Last post by tyssniffen on May 25, 2019, 06:05:57 PM »
Since I've got this thing all the way down, I should put in new gaskets, yes?   The originals don't look... horrible, and I don't believe I was having gasket trouble, but...

If I should, should I do both - the 1 between the body and the cylinder and the 1 between the cylinder and the head?   

Are they just the same?  That is, can I just get 2 of the same and drop them on?

How do you clean up the surface without dirt falling into the body?

And, where's the best place to buy them from for the USA?


General Discussion / Re: Welding on clean DC
« Last post by BruceM on May 25, 2019, 03:49:57 PM »
The choke resists a change in current in a passive manner; no electronics needed as in the modern DC welder which electronically attempts to maintain a set current by adjusting voltage.  I have the choke in the ground lead right at the battery, but I will move it to the electrode lead for the final setup. Anywhere in the welding current path will work.

It helps stabilize the arc as follows: as the current of the arc is starting to be interrupted, the choke will increase the voltage and thus help keep the arc going.  Likewise, voltage and current will be reduced by the choke in case of starting an arc.

The modern DC welder is capable of doing this electronically, using high frequency PWM from an excessively high voltage.  This keeps things compact and lightweight, but generates massive high frequency EMI from the high current, high speed switching.  Just like a typical switch mode power supply, but at 10-100x the current.  Emission strength is related to current times frequency times current loop area.  The welding cables radiate this EMI, and the welder is very close.  Ignoring what this does to the welder, the electronic regulation of current is a technically marvelous; no massive, expensive 40 lb choke is needed.

If you have a voltage monitor on your DC welder, you will find that welding is taking place around 20 volts plus a bit at 100amps of current.  Current will increase dramatically as voltage is raised.  I think that solar panels have insufficient voltage regulation, so while a bunch of 24V panels in series might work with a choke, I think the voltage may be too wild; open circuit is 44V.  If your peak welding current is 125 amps this would still require 3000 watts of PV or better in parallel.  I don't have enough PV to try it.

Welding cable size is determined by your max welding current. Small units with 140A limit may use 4 awg., 250A typically use 2 awg., 300a use 1/0.  The point is to limit voltage drop in the cable and cable heating.  I've ordered some 2 AWG cable, and will have short, 12 foot cables since the batteries with choke are going to be wheeled and portable. 

Here's a link to the article which encouraged me to try a choke on a 2 battery setup:

The one thing he didn't get right was his choke core; ferrites are never used for high current chokes as they saturate easily so that testing by LCR meter (testing with tiny current) will read way higher than the actual loaded inductance.  But since he related his methods and materials well, it was a most valuable and well presented piece of research. I have experience re-purposing toroidal transformer cores as DC chokes, since I used two in my inverter project (for keeping ripple off the 120VDC), and could compare them to a commercial E-I core choke made by Hammond.  Gapped laminated toroid cores have the advantage of being the most compact and lowest loss for high current, relatively high inductance DC chokes.  Still, not cheap or lightweight.

The choke, with 22 turns (16 feet) of 6 strands of 12awg is shown in the attached photo wit the 2 group 29 marine deep cycle batteries.  It's a 1000 watt transformer core, with a gap cut via abrasive blade, epoxy filled.  I think it would work as well with only 8 feet or 10 turns and would be less likely to saturate at higher currents.  Battery jumper cables were used for initial testing and will be replaced with proper welding cables and connectors next week.  I will be increasing all the battery connections to some old 1/0 wire I have, with lugs added. The welding cable with use the standard Dinse 10-25 connectors at the to be designed battery& choke rack/cart. 

General Discussion / Re: Tesla and Towing.
« Last post by glort on May 25, 2019, 10:51:24 AM »

Inconvenience aside - is this as dumb as it looks? [/quote]

Well to me it is!

The reason for going to EVs is to protect the environment by getting off fossil fuels.  If you are then going to power you EV with them, why fk about spending the millions, expending the resources and creating the emissions going the EV route in the first place instead of just keeping on using FF in the first place?

Having to use FF fo power your EV is to me at very least an admission that EV's are not yet ready for prime time.
Of course 80% of the worlds power still comes from FF or Nuke so for the next 2 decades at least, the majority of EV's will be FF powered anywayl

Will, say, $25 of diesel to run the generator for a few hours in the evening give you enough charge to run your EV for the equivalent of $150 of petrol?  Or $200 of petrol?  Or just $25 of petrol?

The engine that is going to burn that diesel is only about 33% efficient in converting the energy to mechanical power so there's a BIG loss to start with. Given the example is a stationary engine, I'd be thinking under 30% efficient.
I believe a generator ( with wide variance)  could be around 70-80% efficient at turning the mechanical power to electricity.  You would then have to charge the battery with about a 5% loss through the charging electronics and  I believe about 20-30% loss in the battery charging itself for the chemical reaction again depending on the battery chemistry. Once the battery is charged there is again some loss through the controller and the electrical Motor.

Thats a LOT of INefficiency so I'd be betting your EV won't go near as far as a decent Diesel vehicle on the same amount of Fuel.
If we take the example literally of that little toy car, Looking at something like a VW Golf or Polo doing 50+ MPG is going to be real hard to beat.
$25 worth of Diesel will take those things a LONG way. I'd be confident the engine efficiency in one of those things and most electronic diesel vehicle engines would leave the efficiency of all but the very best stationary engines for dead from the start.

That said, If that's all you had or wanted to take the EV on a trip without a stupid long time for the journey, there may be strong over riding factors beyond efficiency.

If you were a bit of an "outback" type and there was an EV equivalent of a Nissan Patrol . . .

Specify " Equivalent" .

Are you talking something as roomy as my patrol with the same carrying/ towing capacity? Something with the ability to go 700Km+ loaded to the gunwhales on one tank of fuel and at least another 200 if I turn the thing down and drive it to save fuel?

 I have at least 7 times now done a 3000KM round trip on just the fuel I set out with carried in the back along with all  my crap and still had room for 1-2 Passengers. Something that I can do this with?  Are you talking something I can tow a laden car trailer 4-500KM with on one tank of fuel, refill in under 10 Min and then do the same distance again with again with?
 Are you talking something that is 25 years old  with 500K + km  and never had major work done and is affordable to the average person and has good availability on the used market for $10K and WELL under with still good life expectancy?

Are you talking something that IS actually emissions free and NOT run by fossil fuels indirectly as I have been running the ones I have had on used veg oil for 10+ years?

The EV equivalent of my patrols will never be available in my life time and I HIGHLY doubt will have an equivalent in anyone's on a whole load of different parameters.

That's why I'm on my second and looking for a 3rd and wondering If I should buy another and mothball it for 10 Years or until I need it. And I'm not an outback type, mine are set up as tar babies rather than bush bashers because I have them for the room and comfort, the carrying and towing capacity and the fact they just suit my requirements in a vehicle better than anything else I have ever found.

But yes, if they made something with the same capabilities  in an EV I'd certainly get one.

Of course that IF is akin to saying IF I win the lotto I won't have as much need for one because I'll be buying my own aircraft and flying that when I want to do a longer trip.   :laugh:
General Discussion / Re: Tesla and Towing.
« Last post by mikenash on May 25, 2019, 09:30:20 AM »
EV Range Extenders:   (Just tow your generator, unlimited range)

Inconvenience aside - is this as dumb as it looks?  I Guess someone will do the numbers . . .

Will, say, $25 of diesel to run the generator for a few hours in the evening give you enough charge to run your EV for the equivalent of $150 of petrol?  Or $200 of petrol?  Or just $25 of petrol?

If you were a bit of an "outback" type and there was an EV equivalent of a Nissan Patrol . . .
General Discussion / Re: Tesla and Towing.
« Last post by glort on May 25, 2019, 09:21:12 AM »
Hyundai brought one into the country this week and it is expected to be around the $100,000.00 mark way to much to be a viable vehicle to buy and use.

Not so sure about that mate.
From the article I linked......

We chose the most appropriate and cheapest version of the Model X Long Range (formerly known as 100D), which listed at $129,500 at the time of testing.

Ours was optioned up to $188,215 (drive away in NSW) though, with Pearl White Multi-Coat paint ($2800), black and white premium interior trim ($2100), six-seat layout ($8500), Full Self Driving Capability ($7100), Autopilot ($4300), and then on-road costs.

Our LandCruiser LC200 was the second from the top-of-the-range VX, which currently lists at $98,510 in diesel form.

$188K for a vehicle to put anything behind to me is lunacy especialy when you are going to be lucky to get 160Km out of it.
If you look at the cruiser though which is pretty much the tow truck of choice, they are near as Dammit $100k  so  it seems the numbers are not as important as what you get for them.  Of course the caravan itself was $55K!

I reckon they will have a hell of a lot better chance of selling Hydrogen in the Bush especially IF there is a way to get like a gas bottle  and take it to an out of fuel vehicle. Not sure that's possible due to the pressure but even if you can't refil, maybe it would be possible to connect and use it direct somehow?

Maybe I'll be wise to put a tank of Hydrogen AND a generator on that rescue truck idea I have in mind?  :laugh:

One thing is for sure, all these alternative fuel problems sure puts into perspective all the advantages we have enjoyed with liquid Fuels!
General Discussion / Re: Welding on clean DC
« Last post by glort on May 25, 2019, 09:09:49 AM »

Bruce could you explain a bit more about the Choke. What is it's function and what is it's layout and where does it go in the circuit?

Have you tried welding off your solar panels?
I Imagine yours are set up at around the 120V mark  from what you have said previously and that should give you a decent arc.
I have been playing with the  greenhouse heating setup I have which is 2 strings of 5 panels in series for about 140V open circuit and those things will pull an arc 4CM long and hold it  till whatever including thick nails burn away.

I'd be interested to hear what the drawbacks with that may be with a view to buying a packet of rods and seeing what they will do on a good day.

24V off batteries is much more doable in the field though so would like to learn more about the choke and it's function and why it's needed over straight 24V from the batteries.

Also on welding cable,  The guy that works for my father took some power cable from a car that came in for his welder.  These kids hell bent on going deaf as a post before they are 30 Put some monster amplifiers in their cars and hook them up with cable you wouldn't find in a factory electrical system.
He put it on his largish welder and reckons he can run a large rod at full tilt and they don't even get warm. a Lot of it is like battery cable only comes in 5M lengths!
Of course some of these people are putting 250A alternators in their cars and more than one so the wiring has to be heavy.

If ever there is no welding shop nearby and you need some cable, check if there is a car audio centre around!   :o
General Discussion / Re: Welding on clean DC
« Last post by BruceM on May 25, 2019, 08:06:07 AM »
Thanks MikeNash,  Yes, similar to your 16TC's, I read about the good welding properties of the 7018's and was very disappointed to not be able to use them.  As my skills improve, maybe I'll figure them out. Right now, they stick on striking an arc, or the arc goes out immediately.  I have not made even the smallest puddle or bead.  So perhaps I should put them in my propane oven and heat them up for a few hours?

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