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Generators / Re: Why ST heads?
« Last post by mikenash on Today at 07:18:47 AM »
>  Flicker shows up only in  cheap LED/CFL designs where there isn't true regulation. 

Uh, it also shows on my incandescent bulbs.

FWIW I have six generators in various service vehicles and other situations.  All of them have done duty at my off-grid site where I hope the 6/1 will some day serve.  There's a 2.2 kVa Honda which is six months old and probably has twenty hours on it.  There's a 5 kVa Honda/Dunlite which died last year at ten years old.  There's a 7kVa Honda-engined unit with a Chinese alternator which i bought new and is used almost exclusively to run the arc welder, there's a 2.2kVa Chinese Honda-clone the brand of which escapes me which has been the working genset in my service vehicle - I don't know how many hours it has done but it's on its third starter assembly and second AVR, and there's a 6kVa Chinese Honda clone mostly used by my neighbour which I bought last year at six or seven years old but with only ten hours and a lot of dust on it,  and there's a 2.5kVa Honda Dunlite now 14 years old and still going strong as a backup on another site  . . .

What I'm getting around to here is that I have spent a lot of time in my house/shed/workshop there, in the dark, with the lighting running of whichever one of these is in service - and they all flicker just the same as each other, as far as I can tell.

Just my $0.02
Generators / Re: Why ST heads?
« Last post by mike90045 on Today at 05:49:43 AM »
>  Flicker shows up only in  cheap LED/CFL designs where there isn't true regulation. 

Uh, it also shows on my incandescent bulbs.
Listeroid Engines / Re: Metro 6/1 no oil pump, but cooling pump?
« Last post by mike90045 on Today at 05:45:20 AM »
I have a metro 6/1, no oil pump, just splash lube.
 It was set up pretty well, I'd ordered one with a factory starter, took me 3 years to get the battery wired up, it was that critical (not)
I've got a little over 450 hours (if I just now read my spreadsheet correctly) on it, and aside from a  lousy factory head gasket, it's been great.  When I changed the head gasket, I had valve seats cut in,  Detroit Diesel series 92 valve seats are a very close fit.
Because of low-sulfur diesel, I mix 2-Stroke oil @ 200:1 in the fuel.  I use a spray bottle of water/alcohol down the intake when hot, to break carbon up out of the cylinder.
I installed a thermostat, 195F add-on thermostat NAPA 253 & grind out the housing to accept it. (also Gates 33269)
Gasket for stacking on the thermostat water fitting   NAPA 1038-ST

This thread may interest you :
Listeroid Engines / Re: New to listers, is a knock normal?
« Last post by Quinnf on Today at 05:02:49 AM »
What you describe sounds exactly like what I ultimately found was a loose fitting gib key.  I can't hear it in your video, but the sound in mine sounded like it was coming from the crankcase.  I found on my PowerSolutions 6/1 that the gib keys were narrower than the slot milled in both the crankshaft and the flywheel.  Total clearance was about 0.019" if I recall correctly.  No matter how tight I pounded the gib keys in, on power strokes, there was enough torque to twist the crankshaft against the flywheel, and when it came up tight, it made a "clunk" sound that went away immediately when the decompressor lever was engaged.  Do yourself a favor and before you go tearing the big end off the rod, pull a gib key and measure the width, then measure the corresponding width of the slot in the crankshaft.  They should be within a thousandth or so.

I fixed the clearance by taking some pieces of 0.005 and 0.010" brass shim stock, cut with scissors to slide between the side of the gib key and the crankshaft groove, and also the flywheel groove.  Once I tapped the gib keys in, the noise went away. 

Now, it's also possible some of the noise is from backlash in the idler to cam drive gear.  That one is more difficult to fix and involves machining an offset idler pin to allow you to adjust the mesh of the idler gear.  Once you get these engines dialed in, they run fine.  But the way they come from India, all bets are off.  Every engine is an individual.


P.S. Here's the link to the thread from 2009 when I described what I did:

Listeroid Engines / Re: Metro 6/1 no oil pump, but cooling pump?
« Last post by SHIPCHIEF on Today at 04:13:24 AM »
Back in the active days of Listeroids (2007-ish) there was a guy called Hotater who invented an oil filter for no-oil pump engines. It is a wire screen pocket mounted to the crankcase door. In the pocket he put some terry-cloth.
The con-rod dipper throws oil into the pocket, which is filtered as it drains thru the terry-cloth.
I made a Plexiglas door for my 25/2 because I wanted to see how much oil the dippers did move. It's a-lot of oil! The whole crankcase is filled with a rain of oil, but the main strip of oil is right against the door, and so I dutifully made the screen pocket and put some Terry-cloth in it and some magnets to hold the cloth down, even tho- I have a pump.
Rocketboy had a pump failure while powering his home during a Hurricane. The plunger return spring shattered, yet the splash lube kept the whole (twin, 12/2??) lubed without a problem.
I have a 25/2, but I also crave one of those monster singles with the 2 level sump, vertical oil pump plunger and direct injection head.  8)
Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Last post by glort on Today at 12:31:36 AM »
  My rig ran for over 100 hours with no serious problems - just some "teething and break-in" minor issues. 

To my way of thinking, it seems a shame to get rid of a perfectly good working system because of one little problem that is put down to a teething issue anyway. Put in a self regulating alternator or a small solar controller to keep the battery topped up. Volt meter sounds like a good idea too.  Now it's adjusted and you are aware of the potential problem, even with no changes it's unlikely to happen again.

Thing that occurs to me is you now have 100 hours testing and experience with this system. Start changing it and what's the next teething problem you are going to have? Lets face it, this was human error not that of the system. Now the human factor has been reduced, I'd think maybe a lot better to stick with it than change it an introduce another potential problem next time.

Sometimes I think we get a bit carried away with "Simple" and get too busy looking at one thing and forget about others.
I like the fan radiator setup and I think it's as reliable as anything else in a system. You can't make anything bullet proof at all. There is always going to be a hose that can leak, split etc, a tank that can crack, rust, leak, fall over, an AC alternator that can stop working for a heap of reasons and there is the possibility of engine failure itself.  I think you hedge your bets and that's the best you can do.

As for your fan stopping, I think that just needs a little re think. If the engine was running and you had power, sorry but to my mind a well designed thought out setup should be able to run that fan while ever the engine is.  If you had AC a battery charger or transformer can be run to power that fan.  Don't need 20A to run it flat out, thing will get by fine on about 2A. Pretty much as long as it's turning too fast to follow the blades with your eyes it will keep the engine cool with that sort of capacity radiator.

Self regulated alternators have been around a LONG time now so the problem of not adjusting a regulator to keep a battery charged should not be an issue.  Alternators run thousands of hours and a cheap as chit to buy at wreckers etc so no problem to have a spare and a couple of belts etc.
Used radiators and fans are also cheap as so not problem having one of those spare either. Those fans last an eternity as well and anyone that thinks fan failure is a significant drawback to the system I would say really does not have enough experience or knowledge of the things. They last 20 years on vehicles and even if they are not powered up all the time they are pretty much turning whenever the car is moving forward. They aren't big sellers in wrecking yards because it's very rare for them to need to be replaced other than through accident damage.

Lister had setups with radiators that had fans driven by belt off the engine.  Again, engine turns, engine is cooled. all you need is a spare belt but at a pinch you could use rope, pair of the Mrs stockings, some Braided rag, whatever.

There are a lot of advantages to the radiator setup just as there are the tank route. 

It would seem for tank cooling a thermostat would be a good idea. That way you could over size the tank and not have to worry.... apart from the thermo jamming of course.
I have thought of having the exhaust blowing onto a tank from a distance. If you measure the temp back from the exhaust you ill see it mixes with the surrounding air fast and is much cooler. Further back you go, cooler the air gets. Should be able to work out a happy medium where the air is cool enough to stop the thing overheating but close enough to help warm up the water and maintain it so it's never too cold.
I think straight out of the exhaust would work but very easy to put a larger section of pipe around the outside to make an inducer and save distance.

I did a combination system on my roid. Had the car radiator and fan but also T'd to a 25L open header tank.  I was surprised how much heat thermoed into the header tank  and I suspect it could have tun a pretty long time just with that. The thermosyphon meant water was pulled in through the radiator and that alone with no fan took out a reasonable amount of heat.  I thought if any sort of airflow was induced, even with some sort of paddles on the flywheel to create some draft, the radiator that was designed to cool an engine of 100 Kw should have plenty of margin to cool something 4 Kw.
I had the radiator at a slight angle so the air would draft up through it. Maybe even a tall cardboard shroud would induce enough draft to keep the thing cool on it's own.
Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Last post by Hugh Conway on September 23, 2017, 10:43:19 PM »
I am a big fan of thermosiphon cooling too. Simple. the biggest downside is that if you live in a place that has freezing weather (I do), the required amount of anti-freeze starts getting expensive fast.
I started out using a 30 gallon cooling tank. It would never fully heat up in my usual 2 hour battery (about 3Kw load) charging runs. Now I use a 10 fin cast iron radiator with an expansion tank on that engine. Heats up quickly and does not overheat. I suppose your ambient temperatures and loading would determine the amount of cooling capacity required. Lister recommended something like a 50 Imperial gallon cooling tank with a 6/1. Seems like overkill, but maybe not if you are running 24/7 in a hot climate.
I have a old 15 gallon galvanized milk can with fittings welded on as a cooling tank for my Dursley. Have not seen enough run time on that one to give a good opinion. Same thermosiphon set-up, and I do not anticipate running it for long periods. Should be fine based on the results with a 30 gallon tank on the Listeroid.
Our winter domestic hot water is produced by a thermosiphon through a coil in my woodstove.  it has worked  flawlessly for many years, as has the listeroid cooling system.

Listeroid Engines / Re: Metro 6/1 no oil pump, but cooling pump?
« Last post by Hugh Conway on September 23, 2017, 10:22:47 PM »

Probably yes, as Samo says straight 30wt without a filter. I am using straight 30 in my filterless Dursley and a detergent multi-grade in my filtered Listeroid. Really though, I would bet it makes little difference given that modern oils are so much better than the original oils available when these things were designed. Frequent oil changes are the important part.
Thermostat....we used to have one in the listeroid (with a small hole to allow for air to purge itself out. Since switching over from a large capacity cooling tank to a cast iron radiator, I found that the 'stat is not necessary in my case.. It all heats up quite quickly and maintains a good hot temperature without overheating on an average 2 hour run.
As for a water pump, also not necessary.....if you can arrange it, a thermosiphon works just great with no moving parts to fail. 
And of course, before you run it, do take it completely down and clean it internally. Set it up properly.....bump clearance and timing will make a big difference in ease of starting. You will know your engine and be confident to make any repairs and adjustments. There is lots of good information on setting up on the forum; poke around through past posts and you will learn a lot. 
I am an off-gridder and use my engines to provide power when the sun does not and also to power up my shop.
We are off the beaten path, my "machine  shop" is little more than a collection of hammers and files.......goes along with my skill level.........That said, I have gotten good reliable service from my Listeroid over the last 5 years and refurbished a non-running Startomatic 6/1 that is now in my wood shop.......thanks to all the help and advice I have gleaned from others on this forum. Thank you all!
And Runner.....most importantly, have fun with it!

Listeroid Engines / Re: Metro 6/1 no oil pump, but cooling pump?
« Last post by ronmar on September 23, 2017, 10:12:27 PM »
Thermostat = yes.  Cooling pumps are not positive displacement so it does not "run dry" nor does it have a problem with a closed thermostat. like about every auto out there have no issue with a closed thermostat.  The thermostat should have a small bypass hole added to it to allow a little coolant to leak past so the hot coolant can reach the thermostat bulb that opens the thermostat gate/valve plate.  This helps the thermostat to regulate better As long as it is not too large a hole(1/8" or so should be fine).  I probably wouldn't put much faith in a rakjot coolant pump to last, probably better to not use it and configure for thermosiphon...

No oil pump huh?  Does it have the true single main high volume oil sump?  The pump version has a stepped sump.  The upper sump has perhaps 3/4" of oil in it that the dipper swings thru.  The pumped oil squirted on bearings and crank runs down into and keeps the upper sump full for the dipper to swing thru a consistent oil level.  The excess runs over the lip to the lower sump which contains several quarts of oil and from which the pump draws.    If the block casting is a stepped sump you are going to have to figure a way to keep the upper sump full as the dipper slings most all the oil toward the cam, but some does get splashed back and will find it's way to the lower sump untill there is not enough upper sump oil to maintain good dipper splash.  Easiest way to do this is to keep the lower sump full to the point that it just barely flows over into the upper sump.  But if that oil level decreases(and it will) then there is nothing to keep the upper sump full...  In the case of an original pattern casting, it may not even be possible to keep the lower sump that full as the fill point was lower than the upper sump and was a sliding metal plate(not oil tight).  My casting was sealed where the original fill point would have been located on a true lister so on some it is possible...

Oil = non detergent. 

Not a bad idea to check differential squish(place lead over each end of the wrist pin).  Squish in general is good info and diferential squish will give you an idea if the cylinder bore is in the same plane as the piston/rod travel(machining errors not withstanding of course)...

Has it set for a while?  Original design rope fuel filter?  Way better basic fuel filters out there that won't cause you as many problems as the original either clogging or leaking/admitting air...  if the system has been dry, once filled with fuel tap all the hose with a screwdriver to help dislodge air bubbles otherwise these will cause you issues for a little while as they work loose and find their way to the IP.

Goosd luck!
Listeroid Engines / Re: Metro 6/1 no oil pump, but cooling pump?
« Last post by Samo on September 23, 2017, 09:45:09 PM »
check out for 38AC's brilliant post, a few posts in he goes into casting sand....
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