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Messages - BruceM

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2446
Listeroid Engines / Re: Lister cooling
« on: January 27, 2009, 03:04:22 PM »
Thanks Carl. I'm very happy with my air starter, too.  Decompression is necessary, but I wanted that for shutdowns, too, ala the Start-O-Matic (SOM).  Except that both decompressor and rack closer on my rig are pneumatic, operated off the same air solenoid (the SOM operates both with a single big electric solenoid). The decompressor then provides double duty- starting aid and backup for the rack closer in case of emergency shut down (oil level, head temp, vibration, rpm).


2447
Listeroid Engines / Re: Lister cooling
« on: January 26, 2009, 05:04:26 AM »
Leland, I hate to hijack this thread but here's the response to your questions:

I think the radiator has 4 rows.  No overheating yet, even at 100F and no wind.  It's monitored by a Picaxe chip which will shut her down if it does happen, so I don't worry about it.  But I would go with a GEO sized radiator and a shrouded, exhaust powered (suction) airflow if I was to do it all over.  My "House of Lister" is too far from the house to be used as a heat source, so heat exchangers are out for me.

The interior walls of the "House of Lister" are drywall that was laminated with 1 mil aluminum foil before it was installed, and the seams were then foil taped.  I did this because I had a chemical injury in a new sick building and don't tolerate diesel/oil fumes well.  The foil adds about about R-5 or better insulation value, and is totally non-absorbent.  Because it was built late in the fall, I couldn't get epoxy on the floor in time for it to cure well before building, so the floor was covered with galvanized sheet metal.  When I spill oil or fuel or coolant, it cleans up without leaving a stink for me to cope with.  I ran 100% biodiesel until this fall; it was much nicer to be around.  I hope to get a regular supply of it someday.

The generator "frame" is wood, 4x6 frame with 2x6 planks that was a temporary test frame.  It's glued with Gorilla glue and all screwed, painted Hunter Green with ACE spray paint.  It's still doing just fine.  It's mounted to the floor with 3/4" soft rubber pads (McMaster.com) , scored 1/8" with a saw on both sides.  Gorilla glue holds the pads to the floor and frame.   I keep waiting for it to fail but after 2 years (while I've been building my shop and house) it hasn't yet.  I'll add rubber isolated through bolts to the slab (with epoxied-in-slab threaded sleeves) when it does.  The "House of Lister"slab is 8 inches thick under the engine, 5" everywhere else.  Not nearly as nice as an isolated slab, concrete bedded steel frame, but it's been working. 

 My stock machine would vibrate the whole building (a little), even with rubber pads. After balancing with the Mr. X method, it is now a "glass of water stays put on the valve cover" engine.
(The Mr X method is marking the running flywheels and adding clay opposite the mark, leading a few inches, then lead wheel weights.)  For the fine tuning, forget marking, just try moving 4 oz of clay around the flywheels to see where it helps or hurts, using your feet and the glass of water as indicators.  Expect to either add to or be opposite the flywheel counterweight.  My Metro needed over a pound opposite the flywheel counterweight, on each flywheel.

If I was going to do a concrete mounted (bedded) steel frame, I would first balance the Listeroid on a temporary wood frame or put some old carpet layers under the steel frame for balancing, then mount it to the concrete.  The Indians don't control piston and connecting rod weights, so you need to adjust the external counterbalance to better match what you've got.

Bruce M



2448
Listeroid Engines / Re: Lister cooling
« on: January 25, 2009, 04:09:02 PM »
Kelly, On my exterior mounted radiator, it was a cross flow big V8 model, so I turned it sideways to get vertical flow.  (A true vertical flow radiator is much nicer but this was cheap.) The cap is modified to remove the pressure spring and seal, only the cap seal remains.  The overflow hose bib on the radiator filler neck leads to a standard universal coolant overflow tank mouned above the radiator.  (Aluminum tape protects the tank from the sun except for a "coolant level viewing stripe" on the north side.) 

I also soldered a brass hose bib to a hole in the brass end cap at the highest point on the mounted radiator.  It connects to a vent tube that runs up above the reservoir tank.  This makes filling and bleeding the system much easier.

Here's a couple photos from when it was first installed.  The vent tube is missing.
http://picasaweb.google.com/rbrmcc56/HouseOfLister?feat=directlink

Bruce M

2449
Listeroid Engines / Re: Lister cooling
« on: January 24, 2009, 11:21:41 PM »
To clarify for Stan, in an induced draft cooling system, the exhaust is directed inside (and in the direction of cooling air flow)  into the OUTPUT duct of the shrouded radiator.  The exhaust flow then pulls along a bunch of cooling (fresh) air through the radiator.

After Dail's reference to the Rumely Tractor, I remembered that Andy Hall was the guy whocame up with this as an idea for Listeroid cooling, along with the reference to the Rumely Oil Pull tractor.  Thanks Dail.

Lots of ways to skin the cooling cat, and other system design issues tend to make the choice for you. (Such as if you have to run a coolant pump anyway, or are sometimes pumping air with no AC being generated.) 

The other concern for a pressurized system is the O rings around the cylinder liner.  Made me nervous, so I opted for the no pressure approach.  But I know some guys have done fine with modest pressures.

Best Wishes,
Bruce


2450
Listeroid Engines / Re: Lister cooling
« on: January 24, 2009, 06:39:56 PM »
I used alternate cooling system 4;  big V8 sized radiator mounted outside the shed (can't get old cast iron radiators here in AZ), thermosiphon cooling, thermostat (thanks George).  Low pressure just from gravity; the overflow tank is about 4.5 foot above the engine outlet (2 psi).  No power wasted on fans or pumps, and I've never had an overtemp shutdown (my Listeroid is monitored by a Picaxe chip), even at temps over 100F and no wind.

If I was doing it again, I think I might try a exhaust induced cooling with a smaller (vertical flow or mounted to get vertical flow) radiator.  Shroud the radiator, duct with say 6" round pipe,  a muffled exhaust exiting in the 6" pipe.  The exhaust induces the cooling air flow through the radiator.  This is not my idea, and there was is a vintage tractor that used this method.  But I think it's a very elegant solution.  I would route the exhaust/cooling pipe upwards and put a standard tin vent cap on it.  Thus your exhaust is now protected, too.  I like this over my bare radiator as it is subject to hail damage (though I plan to protect it with some wire mesh on a stand off).

If you want to run at hotter temperatures without pressure, especially at higher elevations, then the Evans non-aqueous coolant seems a natural choice, though expensive.

I hope this is helpful, Kelly.

Best Wishes,
Bruce M
Snowflake, AZ
Older Metro 6/1 running off grid homestead, pumping air.
Bruce M

2451
Lister Based Generators / Re: Bridge rectifier
« on: December 21, 2008, 02:05:43 PM »
Brian, the peak volts out of the Harmonic are over 300V for the ST3, so consider a bridge diode rated for at least 600 volts.  No harm in going overboard, I use 800V rated or more.  I prefer the 25 amp integrated units with a metal body- they will conduct the heat better to your new heatsink...which can be homemade out of some aluminum.  They run about $7-8.  In my case, the bridge diode mounts to a steel case with some aluminum channel on the outside for additional cooling; the engine room is a warm place.  Don't forget to use some thermal grease for mounting it, too.  The thermal grease (very thin layer is best) goes between each piece.

Overkill on the bridge diode is the way to go, as you suspected.

Best Wishes,
Bruce M

2452
Generators / Re: What makes a generator single phase or three phase?
« on: December 05, 2008, 04:21:51 PM »
Very nice primer on 3 phase, RCAVictim!

Yes, SteveU.

 I'll add this:

The original purpose of three phase power was solely to drive three phase induction motors;  the motors can be either more compact and/or have much larger HP ratings than single phase motors since those power pulses are now much closer together in time.  The rotor can be smaller and lighter for the same HP.  Single phase motors are limited to about 7.5 HP, max.  No limits on 3 phase.

Three phase also has extra value when generating DC, as the rectified output doesn't swing all the way to zero since a new "hump" is starting just when the last was starting to fade. So there is much less ripple voltage on the DC.   Auto alternators are set up this way for just this reason.

I hope this is somewhat helpful.  

2453
Generators / Re: ST Hum
« on: November 28, 2008, 02:32:31 AM »
My ST-3 made noise under load (from hum to low growl), increasing with load, until I replaced the bearings. Now it's quiet.
Bruce M

2454
Listeroid Engines / Re: Cooling tank question/thermosiphon/pumps etc.
« on: November 19, 2008, 11:46:06 PM »
Nice piece of troubleshooting Jens! Bravo!

2455
Engines / Re: Use of Plastigauge
« on: November 10, 2008, 04:21:22 PM »
Neither of my two conrods will fit down through the cylinder sleeve, so I have to put the piston in the cylinder, then lower the whole assembly in place.  It is a two person job, and not fun. 

Bruce M

2456
Generators / Re: getting rid of flicker
« on: November 10, 2008, 03:34:28 AM »
I tried a ferroresonant (Sola) transformer before building an AVR.  It made little difference.  They just aren't designed to handle the variable frequency. 

2457
Lister Based Generators / Re: automatic frequency control, revisited
« on: November 09, 2008, 05:17:56 PM »
Cujet,
I agree the RC servo "tweaker" approach is probably the safest, easiest, cheapest solution.  If the spring attachment point was replaced with a long lever, with the spring attached very close to the pivot, then a cheap servo could be used to move the long end of the lever. Consider using a Picaxe chip, then others can use your (Basic) program and download their own Picaxe chip from a PC serial port with no development system cost.  They are very cheap (most under $10).   I have used the Picaxe chips on several projects, and do use one to control my Lister, including an RC servo to flip an air switch which controls my air compressor unloader valves.  My special thanks to MrLister for suggesting the Picaxe chips to me a couple years ago.

The load change related frequency variation is slow enough that any decent AVR will be able to hold a good constant voltage. Most AVRs even respond fast enough to greatly reduce the power stroke speed changes.  I expect this would solve virtually all your equipment problems except for possibly the UPS units which might also be watching frequency.  Most other digital gear won't give a hoot if the frequency of the AC varies, as long as voltage is held withing spec.


Bruce M

2458
Generators / Re: getting rid of flicker
« on: November 06, 2008, 02:16:56 PM »
The simple contact type flicker circuits are designed for direct/gear/cogged belt drive  gensets.  You won't see this applied to vee or serpentine belt driven sets as the AC frequency is not fixed to (some multiple of) the engine stroke.

I just reduced the AC voltage averaging capacitor on my AVR to 10uF and was impressed with the flicker improvement. Now I can tolerate 100 watt incandescent bulbs for a while.  With some SOM flywheels, I think I'd be just fine with it for extended periods.  It sure would be great if some of our Listeroid dealers in the US would carry SOM type, 24" flywheels for the 6/1s. 

The problem with electronic regulation is that the field coil has so much inductance that there is a lag in the correction. (ST-3's have less flicker on an AVR than an ST-5 due to their smaller field coil inductance.)  In order to compensate for the lag, you need sophisticated program (embedded single chip computer) to calculate a real time, leading compensation factor.  A sensor would help- it could be just the induction or hall effect sensor on the spokes, with the program to determine whether it is the power stroke.

  Then you would only see a touch of flicker when big loads switched in or out; the lead compensation couldn't readily cope with that dynamic.

My project plate is too full for this sophisticated bit of electronics, and my lighting will be 120VDC, so I won't have this issue myself.

Best Wishes,
Bruce M



2459
Engines / Re: Tuning injection timing by ear
« on: November 02, 2008, 08:40:41 PM »
Wonderful job Ron! When I have time for some more Listeroid twiddling, I'll be using your idea to check timing. 

I was wondering...did you change your engine timing based on the strobe, or is 20 degrees BTDC spill really where it should be (at 2.5 degrees, really)?



2460
Listeroid Engines / Re: Air Starting
« on: October 29, 2008, 12:40:16 AM »
A Gast 4AM motor with a 2.5" rubber drive wheel will easily crank up my 6/1 in very cold temps belted to an air compressor and an ST-3 generator head.  Just keep the air supply line 1/2" with no quick connectors, and keep the exhaust hose short and at least 1/2".  I use a lawn tractor muffler outside the engine shed wall for the air starter.

Bruce M

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