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Topics - BruceM

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16
Generators / Frequency/Voltage Meter for ST gensets
« on: April 14, 2016, 04:12:39 PM »
I've been disappointed with the analog panel meters for AC frequency and voltage from China.  The frequency meters in particular are junk- when voltage goes down (with increased load and thus lower frequency), the frequency meters show an increase in frequency! Laughably bad design.

Many digital frequency meters have problems with the ragged waveform of the ST generator heads.  They will not display the proper value, or even close.

I did find one cheap ($10) digital meter that is quite good:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131683950915?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Both frequency and voltage are displayed properly and accurately on an  ST-3 head on harmonic.  Voltage is RMS, tracks a Siemens ($) display within a volt.






17
Generators / CGG AVR- not so hot for non-linear loads
« on: March 23, 2016, 02:15:41 AM »
Hi Guys,
We're using the CGG AVR on my neighbor's ST-3 with propane converted DES 8/1.  It is using the Harmonic winding as the excitation source, since it just doesn't work at all using one leg of the line voltage (can't start even a 1/2 hp motor).  Tom lists that configuration, but frankly, he should not.

On the harmonic the CGG AVR works fine on induction motor loads, but on non-linear loads like a small wire feed welder, or a Vitamix on (electronic controlled) low speed,  it regulates the voltage so low our RMS voltage monitor trips. (regulates to 170V RMS instead of 240, and 85V on the stepped down 120V supply).  On straight harmonic the ST-3 does fine on these same loads.

So alas, while Tom's price is appealing, the AVR being sold by CGG has some serious limitations:

1. You can use it only with the harmonic winding for excitation.  
2. It regulates only to peak AC voltage levels, not RMS,  and will down regulate to grossly low voltage for some non-linear loads.

Can anyone suggest a 240V AVR that does a decent job of regulation?  Something that says "RMS" voltage in the specs perhaps?


18
Listeroid Engines / Mechanical water pump ideas?
« on: March 20, 2016, 03:15:55 PM »
We've found that my initial design for cooling, thermosiphon for coolant flow and thermal chimney for air through the radiator is inadequate for extended runs at full load.  From some experiments with increasing the stack height and modest fan on the radiator, it seems our water flow is inadequate.  We are getting 54 degrees of cooling on the return water, but still engine temperature very slowly climbs. Raising the radiator more would do it but then our thermal chimney for the radiator gets even taller, which is a structural issue for high winds.

I'm looking into options for a water pump. A mechanically driven by a rubber roller or vee belt off the flywheel would be lovely; it could also let me lower the radiator, increasing the vertical for the thermal chimney.  Any suggestions on a suitable pump and how to do the bypass so that a thermostat could continue to be used?  

Alternately, can someone suggest a suitable AC pump?  

19
Generators / voltage monitoring relay - what works on an ST head?
« on: February 25, 2016, 01:13:59 AM »
I tried a Schneider 831VS-240A voltage sensing relay.  It is very unhappy with the no-load ST-3 waveform, even when I added some filtering before the relay.  The no load waveform is close to a triangle wave, a bit ragged.  Massively filtered, to a more curved form, this VS relay is still unhappy, even with a load.  With a 1/2 HP motor on and no or modest filtering  it is happy and works properly.  So it is just not going to work for my application.

I wonder if anyone has found a voltage sensing relay (high, low, time delay trip) that seems to work well on an ST type waveform. 

I have my own voltage range sensing circuitry on my ST-3 AVR but was hoping to just buy something off the shelf for my neighbor's DES propane conversion project. 

20
Listeroid Engines / Oil level- Lister clone
« on: February 22, 2016, 07:04:38 PM »
I'm a bit baffled about oil level on the DES propane 8/1 conversion engine.  The dipstick is still on the "little door", but only reads what's in the upper sump, so seems useless to me.  What is the proper oil level in the lower sump?  Has anyone tried to put a low oil
float switch in the lower sump? If so, where and how well does it work?

On my Metro Listeroid 6/1 with single sump, a conventional float switch didn't work due to splashing, so I had to hombrew a vinyl oil level sight tube with magnet in a HDPE tube float inside the sight tube, and a reed switch zip tied to the sight tube.  That works fine for both a quick visual check and for auto shutdown sensing, but a bit of a hassle.

So I was just wondering what might work best, and where the doggone full oil level really aught to be on the dual sump clone.

21
Listeroid Engines / EGT on a 6/1 or 8/1 Listeroid?
« on: January 05, 2015, 03:53:31 AM »
I wonder if anyone has measured the full load (or any load) EGT on a 6/1 or 8/1?

I want to monitor my EGT for my propane mod and would love to have a stock diesel baseline number, for someone closer to sea level and a full load.

I've read that 1250 is the max for normally aspirated diesel auto/truck engines, but I've no clue what a Listeroid EGT might be.

22
Listeroid Engines / DES 8/1 Propane Conversion project
« on: December 31, 2014, 08:31:13 PM »
I'm going to attempt a propane conversion of a DES 8/1.  Using an Impco propane carburetor, lowered compression, spark in the injector hole.  I'm planning on about 750 rpm operation.  Application is AC power and compressed air for an off grid homestead in very rural 5600 ft elevation AZ.  ST-3 planned, 2200 watts continuous is sufficient.

Today I'm trying to find a 16-17" cast iron sheave for a B-belt in order to drive an LaPlant LP205 two stage compressor at about 800 rpm or a bit less.

Anybody know of a good source for large sheaves besides Grainger?  They have a browning but it's $200.

Has anyone tried driving a B Belt direct on the flywheel? I'm thinking there might be sufficient surface area to do that for a modest load.  I'm considering this for the ST-3 drive.  Lots more flexibility in sheave size.  A 10" sheave would match my desired 750 rpm.  A single B belt is more than adequate according to my belt chart.

23
Generators / VXB or FAG bearings?? recommendations?
« on: October 16, 2012, 12:41:23 AM »
My Grainger NTN replacement ST-3 bearings are getting a little bit noisy at about 1000 hrs of generator run time.  I have to use quite a bit of belt tension on the serpentine belt to avoid belt chirp, so I guess this is the price I pay.

At Amazon, I find that VXB.com in California carries the 6307 and 6305 bearings I need in the RS (sealed) style. They are a pretty good price at $15 and $10. with free shipping on my Prime acct.  Are these crap?

I can also get FAG brand bearings, for $25 each.

Any thoughts on better bearing brands and/or sources???

24
Listeroid Engines / Idler Gear Wear (none) 2200 hrs
« on: March 16, 2012, 12:11:31 AM »
 I did an oil change and took the time for a close gear inspection a couple days ago. I have one of Dave's (XYZer) offset idler bolts in place.  An 0.055"  offset was needed to get both crank and cam play within tolerance.  My gears at a bit over 2200 hrs  (Metro 6/1) show no sign of wear or distortion, with no increase in play, and a continued nice deep meshing of the gears. I did install a bronze idler from Utterpower before service operations began, as a precaution.

Many thanks, Dave (XYZer) for this simple and effective fix, which I think is the answer to the gear train wear issue that most 'oids have.  

I run 15W40 detergent diesel oil, and have a splash/gravity fed bypass filter box just below the breather valve door loaded with cotton rags.  My Metro 6/1 is splash lube only, no lower sump for settling, 3.5 qt. sump capacity.

It appears 90W140 gear oil isn't necessary.   ::)

Best Wishes,
Bruce


25
Listeroid Engines / Induced Draft Cooling for my 6/1
« on: January 17, 2012, 05:52:54 PM »
I changed my 6/1 to induced draft, ala the Rumely Oil Pull line of tractors, with their induced-draft cooling systems.  The exhaust is directed into the 8" galvanized duct, and extends up to within about 16 inches of the top of the top pipe.  The cap is a standard vent cap, for rain protection. It reduces the air flow a bit, but it is still excessive.





This works very well, requiring no AC power, which is nice when I'm just running my air compressor.

From the second photo you can see that only about 6x11 inches of radiator is being used- which works fine for full load at 80F.  This is a thermosiphon cooling system also, so now I'm looking for an appropriately small radiator with large inlet and outlet.  So far, the Geo Metro is the smallest I can find with adequate inlet and outlet.

I previously had no fan at all, just the large radiator, which worked fine except for the rare day here with dead calm air and a long run time at full load, when I'd start to boil off some coolant.

The Rumely method was something I wanted to try for fun.  If I was starting over with an engine room now, I'd put the radiator near the ceiling (near horizontal, return tilted down a bit) and go up through the roof with 8 inch duct.  Then the induced draft system would also pull the hot ceiling air out of the engine room.  (I presently use wind turbines for that now.)

Bruce
Metro 6/1
Off grid near Concho, AZ

PS-  Here's my Metro 6/1 on the inside, from 2007, just before I automated with a homebrew Picaxe controller.  You can see the pneumatic rack closer in this photo. It was only manual push button-air solenoid control at this time.




26
Things I want to Buy / SOM flywheels wanted
« on: January 04, 2012, 05:06:13 PM »
I'd like to get a pair of SOM flywheels for my Listeroid.  Please contact me if you've got some you'd like to sell.

Bruce M
Concho AZ

27
Listeroid Engines / Variable flow propane CS conversion
« on: January 03, 2012, 05:00:04 PM »
I'll start a new thread so I don't keep polluting the turbo thread. 
 
My original post:

"I did some testing with adding propane to my intake manifold and got a modest power increase with adding propane fuel to my 6/1. I also got a cleaner burn (heavy load with black smoke in the exhaust became a no smoke load with propane added to air intake).  I like the convenience of propane (delivered), and I like the cleaner exhaust and engine.  So I may fiddle with some home-brew propane throttle/metering one of these days.  By crude fuel rack position measurement it appeared that up to 80% propane ran reasonably well with no timing/compression change (at my 5600 feet elevation). The hard part is metering the propane at a variety of loads/rack positions. On the gas conversion kits it's done with intake manifold pressure, but I have doubts about that working with our little intake pipe."

Response from CarlB:
"Bruce,

I run my listeroid on diesel and natural gas.  As it is only used for backup purposes i don't have a lot of hours on it, maybe 50 hours or so.
 What I did was use a small adjustable needle valve and set it to add enough natural gas to handle 1500 to 1700 watts or so which is about the normal draw during backup usage.  With the needle valve adjusted in this manor the rack is almost completely closed,  using just enough fuel to keep the engine running.  When the load increases the rack opens adding more diesel as needed.  I have pulled 3500 watts for short periods of time with my 6/1 with very little black smoke.  When running at lower loads the exhaust is very clean and not smoke can be detected.  Also when running natural gas the exhaust does not have a strong diesel odor.   I figure the ratio is about 80/20 natural gas to diesel maybe 85/15.

If you wanted to really have it handle varying loads you could disconnect the governor from the ip and set the fuel rack to just barely keep the engine running at say 300rpm then have the governor open and close the natural gas valve as needed."

Response from BruceM:

"Hi Carlb, thanks for the info on your natural gas setup.    It sure is a nice, simple solution for your setup with a relatively fixed load. The problem with a fixed gas injection rate is that when your load is cyclical (like a washing machine), you must settle for a much lower (LP or Natural) gas proportion in order to avoid knocking at the load "lulls".  I typically have the well pump and washer on at the same time, but the pump will kick off once the tank is full, and the washer draws nada during fill times or between cycles. "

Response from dieselgman:
"The natural gas Listers do have a gas carburetors and throttle connections to the governor, that kind of setup could allow for varying loads and automatic operation."

Response from BruceM:
"Thanks Dieselgman.  I just went to your website- wow!  I'm thrilled to see a US supplier of parts and engines/rebuild kits. What a great service!  I'll be ordering some spares soon.

Do you have a mechanical linkage gas carb that would be appropriate size for a CS 6/1?"

Response from dieselgman:

"Bruce, the Impco gas carbs we have are jetted/sized for both twin and triple HRs. Higher displacements than your CS. I would expect that they could be modified to suit a smaller demand engine though. The throttle body is of a size that could be easily made to fit. Governor linkages would be custom for sure, but maybe could be adapted from the existing 6/1 setup. An interesting thing to consider. I will take a good look at our parts here and see what can be done.

I have done some conversions on V-8 gasoline engines but possibly quite a different beast than a diesel Listeroid being fueled in this way. The Lister HRGs are low-compression spark-ignition variants of the diesel HR."




28
Everything else / Help wanted- RV gas ovens
« on: March 15, 2009, 02:45:27 PM »
Anybody familiar with RV ovens?

I'm working on my new off grid home's "gas (LP) kitchen" which will also (I nearly forgot) need to be wheelchair accessible. I'm doing OK, but have MS so building accessible seems the best insurance.

I am thinking about using an RV range (just for the oven only) mounted on a counter, with an RV range top beside it. It will be a custom build in job, with an elaborate fume hood as I'm pretty sensitive to LP fumes.

The question is: Of the common brands, Maytag (formerly Magic Chef), Suburban, and Atwood, which has the best oven design (cooking volume, ease of cleaning, durability)? I won't use the broiler (alas they all have one). I haven't been able to find any good review or critique information online and there are no big RV shops nearby for me to look at them.

Just thought I'd throw it out there in case there were some savy RV'ers out there who might help me out. Thanks!
Bruce

29
Original Lister Cs Engines / SOM Flywheels Needed (US).
« on: December 08, 2007, 08:25:37 PM »
I'm looking for SOM flywheels for my Listeroid because of my flicker senstivity.  Even with a good regulator (90% reduction in measured flicker levels), I can't tolerate the lighting or my shop heat lamps.
Please don't offer alternate lighting ideas.  I'm aware of them.

If anyone can help locate a pair of these beauties for me anywhere in the US please contact me.

Thanks,
Bruce M

30
Lister Based Generators / ST-3/5 regulator plans available
« on: December 08, 2007, 01:18:50 AM »
I've created a multipage PDF file with all the documentation for my electronic regulator up at drivespace:

http://www.driveway.com/mgnxw06302

It's 15 pages and 368K.  Schematics are scanned hand drawn, as vision problems make my using schematic capture too difficult for me now.

This regulator design is the full bells and whistles model-  high and low voltage timeouts, and allows operation on harmonic winding even if the regulator board  is removed.  It's presently using a 115VAC output transformer (500VA) for excitation, so output waveform doesn't have the "harmonic hump" anymore.  Flicker (low frequency voltage variation at the engine power pulse rate) is reduced 90%.

I also have a proposed draft schematic for a "basic" version which would not need a transformer, and am hoping to find someone who would like to pursue that to a PCB for other ST users who'd like an AVR.

Another forum member (not an engineer but a brave soul trying PCBexpress's software for the first time) did a first pass at the schematic of that for me in PCBexpress's free schematic editor.  That file and my scanned schematic sketch are at:

http://www.driveway.com/mejdw53583
http://www.driveway.com/qfkdu91512

These are rough, be forewarned.  IC1 in the schematic (the only IC) is a TS921 op amp. The power transistor shown as Q should be a 300volt IGBT transistor like an ISL9V5036.  An external regulated 12VDC wall wort could be used, and either the amveco 70000K 7VAC transformer for the reference AC or perhaps a small audio transformer could be used.

I'm asking for some help on making a PCB because interest has been expressed to me and I am unable to do this myself at this time due to vision problems and other pressing health related issues.  I'd be happy to provide technical assistance, and to discuss some design options.  The point would be to make something affordable available to forum members...either totally public domain or for profit is fine too.  I want no compensation.

Bruce M


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