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Messages - SHIPCHIEF

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706
Listeroid Engines / Re: Where are you calling from?
« on: December 22, 2005, 04:35:49 AM »
Who: SHIPCHIEF, Scott E

What: Marine Engineer, son of a poor Idaho boy that went in the navy in WWII and was damage control on a destroyer and a mine sweeper. Later was an Oregon Duck and a Boeing Tool engineer. I just naturally was interested in anything that moved under it's own power. Doesn't matter how big or how little it is. I became a marine engineer because the local school district has a marine technology program. Did I mention I liked things that move under their own power? So it was Marine transportation, instead of marine biology for me. I'm a marine engineer now. Not many steamships left, so I work diesel now. Eagle Scout, dad, airplane pilot, building an RV-8 plane, rebuild motorcycles, boats, old bronco, fix tube radios, yadayada.
Where: Western Washington
Why:  I was looking for another boat, when it hit me! I just wanted the engine room, I didn't want the whole boat! I forget how I first got in contact with George B, maybe I saw a Listeroid on ebay? Anyway, after I visited George, I was bit. He's been a good friend, who lives across town, so I get to see what he's up to every now and then.
 So about the engine: It's supposed to be backup power for our acreage in 'Big Bottom' but right now it's set up in the garage for house backup power, we just haven't had any power failures since
I got it. I've been dinkin' around with it trying to get it to run smoother, better, and to keep the belt on the Allman pulley. There have been plenty of chances to redo things, and now that I discovered that my engine is an imported sand box, I'd say I've got my work cut out for me....It/'s an Ashwamegh 25/2 with an ST 15Kw head. I like it because it looks like an old marine engine, maybe an improved Easthope or something, anyway, if your reading this post then you know.....

707
Listeroid Engines / Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« on: December 22, 2005, 01:41:42 AM »
I just put in a replacement cam idler gear, and checked the magnets in the oil.......They were encased in a gloppy ball of soft crud. I set them out on a rag to drain the oil out. As the oil drains away I see "hair". I only have 7.5 hours on the hobbs meter, but I think I'll drain the oil and wash the sump anyway. The sump is coated with condensation and in some places the surface oil is white from emusification. Suprising; there is NO RUST. I guess I don't run it enough.  The heat lamp on the outside isn't good enough, out there in the garage.
I'm reluctant to run it untill I  shim out the axial crank play from .062 down to spec,. I tried to remove a shim gasket from the slacked off bearing, but the paper gasket just balled up. Dang!
Anyway, when George gets a gib key puller back in his 'library' I'll check it out and get on with the next step!
This engine is a Ashwamegh 25/2. I think it is pretty well made, but there are things to look for. George won't sell these anymore because they wouldn't stand behind their product. Although he has. I'm changing the idler with an aluminum gear he had made. I understand that bronze gears have superceded the aluminum ones, but because I'm installing it before failure, I hope it will work. (not having to run against bunged up crank or cam gears)
I noticed that the oil tube to the main bearing by the idler gear was not aimed at the main bearing oil hole. It is possible that some oil was getting in there, or maybe it was lubed by oil flying off the gearset? Also, the gear backlash is greater than 1/4 inch at the flywheel rim, for both the original gear and the experimental replacement gear. The replacement gear did have much better axial clearance. The idler pinion was not deburred by the builder, so I used the needle files on it.  
The ballance holes drilled into the flywheels don't look like additional counterweighhting for the crankshaft, I think they were just for static ballance of the flywheels? This engine has bolt on counterweights, although I do not see any indications that they have been 'ballanced' (no grinding pads or drillings for weight removal).
Once you get past the YUCK! of sticking your hands into that cold glop, and get to work, it's a simple and fun engine to muck around in. I understand Jack has chitlin's in his ;)
Scott E
PS (I'm modifiing this post)
I went back out to the garage after I wrote the above, and drained / washed the sump. about a tablespoon of water came out with the oil, which was devided into a lower 'black oil' and an upper layer of amber colored oil with some milky white highlites. I started looking at the poor casting quality, then started digging at one spot with a screwdriver. Well, you probably guessed the rest.... Then I got out the inspection mirror to see how bad it is :o >:( :'(. in that order.
I guess I better take it down all the way. It's got sand pockets everywhere. Some fell off in that 7.5 hours of running, those are the areas with no red paint. Of course, the sand that broke loose became the 'black' on the lower level of the oil, and alot of oily black mud was on the sump floor. It washed out OK with a rag and some diesel fuel.
Casting flash all over. I could spend a day with a die grinder cleaning up the partially blocked oil passages etc.
A drop of water is hanging from one cylinder stud, so I guess some cylinder water is weeping past the gasket and down the threads. That would explain the water better than trying to blame it on condensation.
I'll  try to add some pics
Scott E

708
General Discussion / Re: EPA Stationary Diesel Rule
« on: December 20, 2005, 07:15:23 AM »
I read it to mean that any engine sent back to the manufacturer for rebuild or upgrade must meet the new requirements, beacause the rule requires that the manufacturer meet the rule. It may require 'in frame' overhauls performed by the manufacturer also comply.
We (except maybe Hotater and Quinnf  ;)) would not consider ourselves to have 'manufactured' or'remanufactured' our engines.
Scott

709
Listeroid Engines / Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« on: December 19, 2005, 05:02:57 AM »
I'm mostly concerned with the casting sand getting by the coarse strainer in the bottom of the sump that the oil pump sucks thru.  I didn't dissasemble my engine because it looked pretty clean inside. Magnets won't stop sand, so I think full flow filtration is in order. Unless you have disassembled and hot tanked / pressure washed the engine, it will likely drop sand forever. The filter could be simple and maybe just a cotton cover for the suction strainer.
 I couldn't get the strainer out of my engine block, I was afraid to break off the fitting, so I just washed it in place and hoped for the best, but now I'm having second thoughts...
Scott

710
Lister Based Generators / Re: Cogen would this work?
« on: December 18, 2005, 01:52:43 PM »
If the exhaust heat recovery system used a straight pipe it could be built with a scraper inside. It could be on a rod passing thru a valve stem packing gland, and pushed in and out like cleaning a rifle barrel, then stored in the retracted position and the gland nut re-tightened. The running of the engine would blow the residue out into the neighbor's yard, so do it at night.... ;)
If it was a sheet metal strip with 'S' bend as seen looking down the pipe, rotating it clockwise would scrape the carbon; so rotate and push / pull like using a hone in a cylinder. You wouldn't even have to shut down the engine.
Scott

711
Listeroid Engines / Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« on: December 18, 2005, 03:42:20 AM »
I liked the response to the full flow filter proposal. I see now that the oil pump SQUIRT may be most important.  With gauge readings of 30 psi peak as opposed to 4 psi average to a gauge on a accumulator, it is something to think about.  On the other hand, I am also thinking that there is one squirt per two crankshaft revolutions, because the oil pump plunger is run off a cam lobe. So maybe oil PRESSURE is not that important? Maybe we just need enough Oil pressure to get a FLOW of enough oil to the highest bearing above the pump.
As for the bypass valve in a full flow oil filter, I posted:
( I think the oil pump discharge check valve on the pump top could be blocked or restrained with a stiffer spring,)
The stiffer spring on the oil pump discharge check valve would let cold oil bypass the filter, then as the oil warmed up would  allow filtration. An oil filter without air in it would not "accumulate", oil being non compressable.
The downside of this would be a  "Made in India" loose plunger fit might leak too much to push warm oil thru any increased restriction (the filter).
If the oil pump was designed properly, then it draws the least amount of engine power required to do the job. That would mean that it does not have much reserve pressure or flow for us to mess around with.
Now everything is clear as mud. Perhaps the path of least resistance; run it like Lister intended? Add bypass filtration? Check the oil pump plunger spring during oil changes? ALWAYS wipe out the sump and inspect the suction strainer and magnets at oil change. I think the oil suction strainer is too coarse.
As for the extended oil sump.....how would you design it? Take off the oil suction tube and add an external tank at the same level, then hook the pump suction to the new tank? You could put an old cotton towel or your worn out socks in there to act as a passive filter? Now that's what I call recycling!

Why is the Motorgaurd filter prefered over the FRANTZ? Or is it?

Scott

712
Listeroid Engines / LUBRICATION RELATED
« on: December 16, 2005, 07:14:55 AM »
I'm thinking we should discuss lubrication, filtering, magnets, bearing wear, oil pump problems, different engine lube configurations etc. in a new forum.
I have an ASHWAMEGH 25/2 with a plunger pump driven off the center of the camshaft. I noticed that ROCKETBOY had a failure of the plunger return spring during the initial 250 hour hurricane emergency run in. A non India spring may be in order...?

I have several magnets in the sump, like everyone else, but I think a spin on oil filter on the oil pump discharge would be a good idea. I think the oil pump discharge check valve on the pump top could be blocked or restrained with a stiffer spring, and the plunger return spring cover nut could be bored for pipe thread. This would be the new oil discharge point. Hose this to a remote oil filter. The filter outlet goes to the oil pump gauge / prime fitting on the block. Use a Tee to retain the gauge / prime functions.
I use Mobile 40w oil because I got two drums of it for free. I know that's thicker than recomended, but the price was right!
My engine has poorly fitted grease cups for rocker arm lubrication. I hand oil the rockers with 40w. Anything better?

713
Listeroid Engines / Re: PCV
« on: December 11, 2005, 07:40:38 PM »
I wouldn't throttle the intake air to create a vacuum for your cranckase evacuation system. The pumping losses increase, cumbustion efficiency drops, fuel cosumption increases. The Max KW output would be reduced. The engine needs all the air it can get, and you will start to suck dirt into the intake valve guides etc.
The Vacu-Pan used on race cars relies on vacuum pulses in the exhaust. You might tap into the exhaust near the head and put a plumbing check valve on it (3/8" swing check ?) and see if it draws a vacuum? GM cars used a check valve to draw air into the catalytic converter, I have one from a Pontiac, it is a round thing that operates like a reed valve.
I think the normal crankcase exhaust directed to the outside of the air filter is the simplest, and you can SEE the vapors before they enter the intake air filter. This gives a continuous indication of engine load and health.
The Listeroid may have intake pulsations, that would reqiure an enclosed air filter can with the crankcase hose led into the can on the far side from the air inlet.

714
Listeroid Engines / Re: PCV
« on: December 11, 2005, 07:57:08 AM »
I've seen alot of Detroit 671's with the crankcase vapors hosed toward the air filter, and never heard of one running away on lube oil vapor; besides, most of that vapor is leakage past the rings. I think it would be combustion gas (exhaust) and fairly non flammable. Listers could use an air maze tank with an oil drain back line on the bottom and a vapor line to the outside of the air filter. Clean the steel wool in the air maze when you change the oil. Use a foam air filter, they work well when slightly oiled. If you use a cooling radiator and fan, be sure it extracts air from the engine room, that will help carry away the crankcase fumes and exhaust leaks.

715
Lister Based Generators / Re: show what your genset
« on: December 11, 2005, 06:56:35 AM »

Here's mine!  It's an Ashwamegh 25/2 with a 15 KW ST gen head. Overhead muffler and related hardware were from B&B auto parts. The radiator was from a 1969 Firebird 350, and even though it is a crossflow radiator, it still does the thermal siphon thing! An attic fan draws air thru above. The starter is from a 350 chevy, including the ring gear, I made the adapter from a piece of 4 inch aquamet shaft (from a boat) don't do that, it was the worst to machine! I welded up the starter support from channel and angle steel. With the rocking of the engine (side to side) it shakes quite a bit. The rubber mounts between the frame and subframe might not have been the best idea.
I built the subframe 'I' beams across the engine instead of the usual way, DON'T do that! It allows the engine to shake right to left in the picture. The 'I' beam sub frame should be VERY heavy and should be parallel to the drive belt, not parallel to the crankshaft like I built it! The wire and plug recepticle with 'Kill A Watt' meter is sitting on top for the ST head, but it usually sits on the floor...The Junction box on the ST Generator replaced the original tin box supplied with the generator (it was shaking apart) and the meters were relocated to a remote box. The voltage adjust rheostat was eventually removed (usless...Thanks for the advise George) I added an hour meter to keep track. I have run on biodiesel, OK but plan to blend used crankcase oil etc. when I get fuel storage and mixing tanks set up.

716
Lister Based Generators / Re: External regulator V Governor as regulator
« on: December 11, 2005, 06:17:49 AM »
Although frequency variations from no load to full load may vary from 62 Hz to 58 Hz, and voltage from 250 to 220, your houshold really won't be effected. Even the best mechanical 'isochronous'  governors did this to a lesser extent. It's called speed droop, and is a governor adjustment for paralleling AC generators so they can share load. The only diesel governors I have seen that have no speed droop are electronic governors. Part of the fun of these LISTEROIDS is the do it your self add ons. If you cook up a good speed control governor out of cruise control car parts from your 'free collection' and share it on this list, we would all be amused and greatful.

717
Lister Based Generators / Re: Cogen would this work?
« on: December 11, 2005, 06:01:39 AM »
If the heat rejection is the average 1/3 work, 1/3 jacket water, 1/3 exhaust, then you can calculate the recoverable heat as previously discussed........BUT:
Exhaust heat exchangers will condense exhaust carbon and must be cleaned. I experienced this on a diesel ship with an exhaust heat recovery boiler. It would no longer generate enough steam to run the evaporator (to make fresh water at sea) after less than a week. It would eventually cook out the carbon from a dry boiler, but you couldn't put water back in until it was cold again.
My point is this: Your exhaust heat recovery system needs to be straight enough to run a flu brush thru it, and have caps at the ends to run the brush in and let the carbon fall out the bottom.

718
Hi;
I got a 25/2 Ashwamegh and a 15KW gen head thru George. George has been very helpful, so do not take this post as any critisism of him.The engine was pretty clean inside so I decided rinse the dirty breakin oil out, toss in some magnets and run it. I built a frame, but I built the subframe 'I' beams parallel to the crankshaft so I could reach the oil drain pan under the sump easier. That was a mistake, as the structure is a little limber and vibrates back and forth. The engine is not a smooth runner, and rocks side to side. I have added various wheel weights around the inside of both flywheels in all sorts of combinations without any real improvement. I've used various rubber bushings between the engine frame and subframe without satisfaction. The lower I beams are bolted to the concrete garage floor.
The engine has about .062" crankshaft end clearance, so I need to remove some shims. One valve tappet didn't turn, so I chucked it up in the lathe and refaced it, now it's OK. George warns that this engine may break the cam idler gear due to timing marks being stamped into the gear teeth causing a stress riser.....
I combined the exhaust pipes to an auto muffler, then up thru the garage ceiling and out the end wall about 12 feet above the ground. The exhaust noise is pretty tolerable, but the mechanical clattering is pretty strong even with the garage door closed. Our brick house vibrates like a ship at sea....(thrum-thrum-thrum-thrum)
I would suggest  that the 1000 RPM 25/2 is pushing the technology, and the lower RPM engines would be much 'friendlier'.
The 15KW gen head rattled the sheetmetal cover too much to keep. I built a secure cover and remote mounted the meters and light. The voltage control rheostat was removed (no good, not needed). I noticed the generator bearings were starting the squeal, so I opened the generator and noticed the 'grease' looked more like cosmoline. I cleaned and repacked them, seems fine now.
I use this unit as a back up power supply for our suburban home. I don't have it 'Up to snuff' yet, but it does run and put out alot of electricity. Of course, as soon as I got it Two Onan generator sets "fell in my lap". I enjoy working on it and adding the extras that makes it a fun project. Sofar, I have added an electric starter from a 350 chevy, and I'm planning a full flow oil filter and some engine protection (shutdowns and alarms). I would like to recover the Jacket water heat to the home hydronic heat system, and direct the exhaust straight up with a rain cap and a silencing augmentor.......

719
Listeroid Engines / Re: Reducing Noise Levels
« on: December 11, 2005, 01:39:40 AM »
An other consideration is the direction the exhaust is aimed. If you aim it away from the house and neighbors, it will be better. I am thinking about changing mine to straight up with a short length larger pipe around the end to shield the pulsations and draw some air (augment) into the exhaust steam. Higher is good too.

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