Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - listeroil

Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14
166
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: cs 6-1
« on: June 25, 2008, 01:15:19 AM »
Rob

Engine no 488861R7 breaks down as

4888 = engine no 4888th engine built in 1957

61 = engine type 6/1  6hp  650rpm

R = radiator cooled

7 = 1957

I have just checked the 1984 lister book 103 on types 6/1 8/1 12/2 & 16/2 
It states 90 atmospheres for the 6/1 8/1 & 16/2 injector pressure and 150 atmospheres for the 16/2 injector pressure
The timing for the 6/1 8/1 & 12/2 is 20 degrees BTDC and for the 16/2 degrees BTDC

Mick

167
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Pics Of My "New" 63? 6/1
« on: August 09, 2007, 11:36:22 PM »
Geno your engine is a 1953 5-1 engine rated at 6hp 650rpm
6102513
engine no      6102
engine type   5-1
year             1953

Mick

168
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: clone parts on original
« on: July 26, 2007, 05:13:06 PM »
I have been running a Jkson indian cylinderhead on my genuine lister 8-1 engine for 12 hours a day for the last 9 months and it has performed perfectly.
Everything lined up except the tappet screws needed screwing in a long way and the locknuts fitted on the bottom instead of the top. This could have been remedied by machining a small amount off the rocker pedestall.
The Indian head does not have a recess for the 2  cylinder block dowels. I just removed the dowels from the cylinder block.
All other parts fitted perfectly injector co plug valve,gear, manifolds and studs.
I am very happy with my Indian cylinder head so far.

Mick

169
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister CS - photo identification help
« on: July 20, 2007, 02:30:31 PM »
That is a genuine cast iron Lister residential silencer. Back in the eighties they cost 300gbp

Mick

170
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: BRAND NEW TO LISTERS......HELP NEEDED!!!
« on: July 15, 2007, 12:37:51 AM »
Just a little more on oil. A lot of people on this site seem to think Lister cs engines should be run on straight mineral oil. This is not what Listers recomend.

The 1983 Lister Instruction  Book No103 on 6-1 & 8-1 engines states this about oil.

Naturally aspirated diesel engines   MUST BE RUN   on H.D. Diesel lubricating oils to specifications equal or better than DEF2101D or BS1905 type B or MIL-L-46152 or AP1 CD.    STRAIGHT MINERAL OILS ARE NOT SUITABLE,    neither are of less detergency than specified.

MIL-L-2104B or MIL-L-2104C or AP1 CD oils are recomemded for engines running at a high load factor, particularly in conjunction with high ambient temperatures. They must also be used if the sulphur content exceeds 0.6%.

Series 111 oils must be used when oil changes are made at periods longer than 250 hours.

Multigrade oils must exceed specifications MIL-L-2104B or MIL-L-2104C.

The oil should be suitable for oil changes every 250 hours without undue oxidation, with sump temperatures reaching 150C in tropical climates under extremely severe applications, and 120C under normal applications.

Viscosity
The viscosity of the lubricating oil must be as follows--
For starting temperatures--
Below -15C                      SAE. 5W
Between -15C and +4C     SAE. 10W
Between  4C and 30C       SAE. 20/20W
Above 30C                      SAE. 30W

This is the latest genuine Lister information that I own and was written only 3 years before Listers stoped production of the 8-1 engine. Surely Listers knew what they were doing.

The information regarding mineral oil is very old and Listers stoped recomending using it in the early fiftys and then shortly after this date they upgraded the engine to the 8-1 higher power and higher revs specification.

On my own 8-1 engined startomatic I have fitted an external full flow oil filter to remove the suspended solids in the HD diesel oil but when I change the oil I am sure the first oil that comes out is thicker and definately when I clean out the sump there is sediment on the bottom, the solids in suspension do settle down to the bottom of the sump when the engine is swiched off and stay there.

So I hope this clears up the oil situation with these lister engines DO NOT USE MINERAL OIL use only HEAVY DUTY DETERGENT DIESEL OIL.

Mick

171
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: BRAND NEW TO LISTERS......HELP NEEDED!!!
« on: July 12, 2007, 10:04:58 PM »
Matt

What sort of startomatic have you got how many kilowatts is it. I could let you have a pdf of the 4.5kw startomatic or the 2.5kw if you want.

As far as oil is concerned I use sae30 detergent diesel oil in my 8/1 engined startomatic and it appears to use less oil than when I ran it on multigrade oil detergent oil.

Mick

172
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Year of Manufacture of my CS
« on: April 16, 2007, 09:41:26 AM »
Engine no 1273312 breaks down as

Eng no 1273

Eng type 3/1

Year  1952

Mick

173
Other Fuels / Re: K1 kerosine
« on: March 04, 2007, 01:59:03 PM »
The 1952 Lister 5/1 manual states this.

Burning or Illuminating Paraffin (Kerosene) may be used as a fuel if
1/4 pint of lubricating oil is added to 1 gallon.

Mick

174
Lister Based Generators / Re: Start O Matic (SOM) 240v generators
« on: February 17, 2007, 01:58:26 PM »
The 230 volts AC from a startomatic alternator is prodoced from the rotating winding and supplies the full AC output from a pair of slip rings. I dont think there is any way of converting to 110 volts without changing the rotor.

 You could however use a step down transformer. 240 to 110 stepdown transformers are availlable in the UK for use of power tools on building sites and come in sizes that should be ok for the startomatic head. Like this ebay Item number: 330089478243

 If anybody is thinking of importing a startomatic from the UK it might  could be a good idea to get a transformer aswell and include it with the load.

Mick

175
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister 16/2
« on: February 17, 2007, 11:21:59 AM »
Ive sent you a page out of the lister parts list which shows the gaskets for single and twin cylinder engines.

Hope this helps

Mick

176
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Thinking of mfg. and selling shim kit
« on: February 17, 2007, 09:29:49 AM »
I have just measured a genuine lister 8/1 base shim and it is 0.025" thick and made of mild steel.

The bump clearance for 6/1 and 12/2 engines is 0.075" to 0.080"
The bump clearance for 8/1 and 16/2 engines is 0.045" to 0.050"

Genuine Lister gasket sets included 4 base gaskets all the same thickness acording to the part no.

Hope this is of help

Mick

177
Listeroid Engines / Re: Listeroid Fasteners- Metric, Whitworth or BS?
« on: January 22, 2007, 10:02:54 AM »
The pitch angle on bsw is 55 deg and the thread on unc is 60 deg they are a close match and fit in most cases. However it is not good engineering to mix them up. Not all the threads are the same tpi 1/2"bsw is 12 tpi and 1/2"unf is 13 tpi.As far as  sockets and spanners are concerned there are af or metric equivalent sizes that fit. the only one thatyou need in whitworth is 1/4 whitworth (5/16" BSF) for the crankcase door and water jacket.

Mick

178
Listeroid Engines / Re: Listeroid Fasteners- Metric, Whitworth or BS?
« on: January 21, 2007, 11:14:59 PM »
I am sure the threads on listeroids are BSW (british standard whitworth) and and BSF (british standard fine).  I have bought a few indian spares for my genuine listers and they are bolt for bolt the same. It seems like the Indian engines pretty much copied the british design. All the threads on british lister cs engines are either BSW or BSF. This is a table BSW and BSF threads per inch and the link below is a good description of the british standard system.


BSW       TPI            BSF     TPI
1/4          20            1/4       26
5/16        18            5/16     22
3/8          16            3/8       20
7/16        14            7/16     18
1/2          12            1/2       16
9/16        12            9/16     16
5/8          11            5/8       14
11/16      11            11/16    14
3/4          10            3/4       12

http://www.timebus.co.uk/rlh/whitworth.htm

 In Britain, road vehicles, aeroplanes and  machinery until the 1970s used British Standard thread forms. The following families of threads existed;
miniature sizes known as British Association (BA). BA size numbers are in reverse. The lower the number, the larger the bolt size, so 0 BA is the largest and 16 BA is the smallest. BA sizes are mainly used in electrical equipment.
 
coarse threads known as British Standard Whitworth (BSW)
 
fine threads known as British Standard Fine (BSF)
 
The U.S. equivalents are the Unified Thread System formed by ANSI/NATO in 1948. These standards were agreed between Britain, Canada and the US and were based on the previous American National standard, except with rounded roots and optionally rounded crests. This composed the following:
miniature sizes below 1/4 inch (UNM), with roots from an old American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) standard
coarse threads (UNC)
fine threads (UNF), with roots from old Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) and ASME standards

Whitworth threads are used for most mechanical equipment in the RLH.

With the UNF/UNC system the number stamped on the wrench or socket is the dimension of the hexagonal bolt head measured across the flats (AF = Across Flats); so the wrench required for a 1/4 UNC bolt would have be stamped 7/16. Whitworth wrench sizes, however, indicate the size of the bolt, i.e., a wrench required for the equivalent 1/4 BSW bolt will have 1/4W stamped on it.

Whitworth heads are NOT the same size as the equivalent UNC/UNF - they are larger. For this reason, it is imperative that a set of Whitworth wrenches are purchased before working on any antique British machinery. Otherwise, expect rounded-off heads and busted knuckles, trademarks of the careless craftsman.

Whitworth wrenches and sockets are available through clubs that cater to British cars. It's also a good idea to get a set of taps and dies to fix the attempts of those who have gone before you in the vain attempt to convert, intentionally or otherwise, to SAE format.

Another area that causes confusion is the fact that some BSW/BSF nuts can be screwed on UNF/UNC bolts and vice-versa. Under NO circumstances should this be practiced. Most of the coarse threads share the same threads per inch, which means BSW nuts can be screwed onto UNC bolts and vice-versa (the exception to this being ½ inch, of which the BSW size has 12 threads per inch whereas the UNC size has 13). Whitworth and UNC/UNF thread forms differ greatly, the primary difference being the thread angle. Consequently, if these fasteners are interchanged, considerable loss of holding force, fatigue resistance and strength will result.

Some outfits in the US have been known to sell so-called Whitworth hardware, which has SAE sized hex heads mixed with Whitworth thread forms. This really only serves to cause confusion and increase the risk of the wrong equipment being used in future. Fully correct Whitworth fasteners are available in the US.
 
Abbreviation    Name              Introduced       Diameter/ Range      Thread angle, degrees    Notes
   l
   
BSW  British Standard Whitworth       1841              1/16 to 2.5 inches                     55                  Coarse
   
BSF   British Standard Fine                 1908                3/16 to 1 inch                        55                   Fine
     
UNC   Unified National Coarse             1918                0.05 to 1 inch                        60
     
UNF   Unified National Fine                 1918                0.05 to 1 inch                        60


Mick

     

179
General Discussion / Re: seeking an answer...
« on: November 24, 2006, 12:22:12 AM »
1936 LISTER BOOK NO 103 says this
                                                   Fixing
       The Engine should be securely fastened and reasonably level.
       Important Note.  For belt drive always arrange the inside edge of
driving belt as close to Engine bearing as possible. Where "Fast" and
 "Loose" pulleys are used always arrange the pulleys so that the drive is
taken on the side of the pulley nearest to the Engine bearing.
         Attention to the above will prevent undue strain on the bearings due to
overhang.


A slightly later book 103 says this
.
                         Fixing
       The Engine should be securely fastened and reasonably level.
       Important Note.  For belt drive always arrange the inside edge of
driving belt as close to Engine bearing as possible. Where "Fast" and
 "Loose" pulleys are used always arrange the pulleys so that the drive is
taken on the side of the pulley nearest to the Engine bearing.
         Attention to the above will prevent undue strain on the bearings due to
overhang.
                                      EXTRA HEAVY BELT DRIVES

       If the machine which the Engine is to drive makes the use of an exceptionally
heavy or tight driving belt unavoidable, the driving pulley should be supported
between two bearings on an extension shaft with a flexible coupling to connect it
to the engine. Pulley shaft bearings and engine should be mounted on a substantial
steel girder or concrete base.

1952 LISTER BOOK NO 103 says this

                                                     INSTALATION
The Engine must be installed where a generous supply of ftesh air is assured.
A portable electric light is recomended in addition to the fixed lighting of the engine room.
The most convenient hight for the crankshaft is 27in above the ground.
Keep the Exhaust and Water Pipes as short as possible.
Leave a space of about 3 feet all around the Engine for ease of access and maintenance.

Foundations     
       Our standard foundation drawings give the dimensions of suitable concerte beds. These
dimensions are the minimum for a good solid subsoil and modifications will have to be made where
the subsoil is soft water logged or otherwise of a special character.
       Set the Engine as level as possible packing under the Engine feet with thin metal strips, placed
aa close as possible to the holding down bolts.

Portable models
       Place Portable Models in as level position as possible.


1983 LISTER BOOK 103 says this

  INSTALATION
The Engine must be installed where a generous supply of ftesh air is assured.
A portable electric light is recomended in addition to the fixed lighting of the engine room.
The most convenient hight for the crankshaft is 27in above the ground.
Keep the Exhaust and Water Pipes as short as possible.
Leave a space of about 3 feet all around the Engine for ease of access and maintenance.

Foundations     
       Our standard foundation drawings give the dimensions of suitable concerte beds. These
dimensions are the minimum for a good solid subsoil and modifications will have to be made where
the subsoil is soft water logged or otherwise of a special character.
       Set the Engine as level as possible packing under the Engine feet with thin meral strips, placed
aa close as possible to the holding down bolts.

Portable models
       Place Portable Models in as level position as possible.


All the above references are out of genuine lister engine books  from 1936 to 1983 and they dont tell very much but what they do point out is that these engines were used as portable engines They were used in cement mixers during and after the war and lot of other portable applications The size of the concrete block mentioned at
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Technical/51P3data.htm is just for mounting the engine on.

The heavier concrete block is probably for the startomatic units

1952 Startomatic manual for 6hp 650rpm 2.5kw sets says this

FOUNDATION
Mount the generating set on a concrete block 2'  3'' deep. 3'' above floor level and 3''
wider and longer than the baseplate . When pouring the concrete leave four square holes
4'' square x 15'' deep for the holding down bolts.
When the concrete block is hard the set should be levelled up and a grouting mixture of cement
and sand worked in under the bearing surfaces of the baseplate. The bolts should be grouted in
but not tightened down untill the grouting has set hard.

The 1969 Startomatic manual for the 6/1. 3kw sets and  8/1. 4.5kw sets says exactly the same as above. but in the back of the the manual is drawing no 4526EP. This gives the layout of the engine room  and this gives the dimensions for the concrete block. These dimensions are 4' 4'' long 2' 1'' wide and 1'8'' deep including 5'' above the floor. This is totally  different to what it says at the begining of this manual.

Also included in drawing no 4526EP is this note just above the description in the bottom right hand corner

NOTE:-
WHEN FLEXIBLE MOUNTINGS ARE
FITTED FLEXIBLE EXHAUST AND
FUEL PIPES MUST BE USED




INSTRUCTIONS FOR 6/1. 8/1. 12/2 AND 16/2
PUSH BUTTON REMOTE CONTROLLED PLANTS  Says this aswell

Foundation.       A heavy block is required on which to stand the plant.
If a belt driven set is being installed, with seperate beds for engine and
dynamo or other driven machine, the two beds should be connected by a stout
section of re-inforced concrete floor.   Care must be taken to ensure that
the engine bedplate beds evenly on the concrete block. To insure this,
the plant bedplate should be grouted in (i.e. it should be let down on to
a bed of soft mortar).    It is an advantage to place a piece of steel plate
about 3'' x 1/2'' between the engine feet and the concrete block when an engine
alone is installed.   The whole should be grouted as above.
Where a bedplate is not supplied, the engine or plant supports must not
grouted in; this will facilitate easy removal of each component.

Plants and engines should be raised above  floor level on a plinth so that
the crankshaft is about 27'' above the floor for convenience of starting and
maintenance. The concrete used in foundation blocks should be 1 part
cement, 2 parts sand, 3 parts gravel up to 1 1/2''.

Foundation Bolts.          Foundation bolts of combined set should not be tightened
down too much, particularly with fabricated steel bed plates.


I hope this information is of some interest

Mick




180
General Discussion / Re: My God there is some crap going on here.
« on: November 03, 2006, 09:24:24 PM »
Guy


Yeah whatever, you're right and I'm wrong, and since I never made up, invented or discovered any of my knowledge, that means that everything I learned from everyone else is also wrong, it also means that everyone who can read an electromechanical schematic and clearly see the delay line built into the original lister design is also clearly wrong.

Show me where? in the SOM schematic where the delay circuit is to stop the engine from stopping untill temperatures have equalised as you stated.
The only delay on a SOM is the thermal trip which operates if the starting circiut is on for too long. This is because if you run out of fuel whilst running the set slows down and starts motoring itself round so the thermal delay trips the set out. It also has the same effect on starting if the set takes more than 45 seconds to start the thermal delay trips out and wont start again untill you manualy reset the trip. THERE IS NO DELAY ON SHUTDOWN  I suggest you read and learn the schematic before you drop yourself deeper into the hole you are creating. If you dig a hole for someone to fall into watch out you dont fall in it yourself.




Also what the point is there in having a more electrically efficient startomatic system. Its a generator and the original system only takes about 10 watts to operate it. Why bother about better efficiency its only 10 watts on a 2500 + watt generator who cares.

If it only takes ten watts to operate it, how come they are always warm to the touch, like there is at least 1 to 200 watts being dissipated inside?

How is it that MOSFET technology with sub microsecond rise times is suddenly outperformed not merely in overall efficiency, but also in switching speed and accuracy, so that the old electromechanical control system not only consumed less power but caused the alternator to generate more efficiently too?

This is really intriguing, because I have seen (not s-o-m admittedly) old gen sets with electro mechanical controls systems have them replaced by modern electronics and the gen head temperarure has dropped by several degrees, which, naievely, I assumed was because the electronics was switching faster and more accurately than the electromechanical controls and generating less waste heat in the head.... but then I'm not a sparky, you obviously are, par excellence.

Again you miss the point

I talking about the power cunsumed by the SOMAC system not the power required to energise the field windings and charge the batteries. The heat produced in the top box or the control cubicle depending on what model  is from the field winding resistor and the charge control resistor. I have no doubt these could be replaced with modern componants But nothing beats the rugged simplicity of 2 big fat resistors. Who wants transistors circuit boards multiple things to go wrong. When you can have a big fat wirewound resistor that you can rewind if it burns out.




Clearly, you are again correct, if the scram rods fail to engage properly and the core overheats and pressures within the containment vessel peak we could be looking at another chernobyl, on the other hand seeing as it is a unpressurised thermal syphon water jacket on a 6 BHP diesel that is never going to dissipate more than 1500 watts into said water jacket, and given that water + ferrous metals = rust which is several times larger than the primary compound, which is why leaky pipe threads rust tight, and given that it didn't leak a drop or blow a bubble with 15 psi of air and soapy water we might just avoid a china syndrome

You might have the pleasure of having a nuclear power station pluged into your arse.
My lister is my power station  and if the containment vessel fails the power station goes into melt down. I supply power for myself and 5 other light users 7 days a week and it is a big deal for me and I would not trust your repair. However if you made a metal plate larger than your repair area you could stick it on the side of the block with some bathroom silicone sealer and tie it on with baling twine this I would be happy with as if your repair failed the silicone would hold it all in place.


Bugger all, it did about 4 hours at 3 kw

I wouldnt dream of running such a harsh test on a 60 year old 2.5kw startomatic head. This is vandelism of the first degree 3kw for 4 hours thats 20 percent overload I hope you dont suggest anybody else test there 60 year old alternators like that.



Did it never occur to you that these engines clearly will run with no oil pump for some time, PROVIDED ALL OTHER THINGS ARE EQUAL AND ADEQUATELY MAINTAINED because they were designed that way with the splash lube system.

Try and understand this brainless. If the oil pump fails for whatever reason no oil will get into the trough under the crankshaft when the dipper throws out all the oil and it is not replenished there is nothing to provide lubrication to anything all the oil ends up in the sump which is lower than the crankshaft trough. A splash lube system only works if theres any oil for it to splash in do you understand this. Like I said mine ran for 6 hours and it was locked solid the next day Maybe the Indian crankcase design is better than listers because it only has one sump and the TRB engines run without oil pumps
 

Mick

Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14