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Messages - Rob PetterPJ2

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16
Yes, the engine re conditioners should have made sure the clearances were right and this is why YOU need to check them.  In the end, the responsibility ALWAYS lies with the guy assembling  the engine not the guy that supplied the parts. Anything wrong should be picked up during the build.

ASSEMBLY GUY's FAULT...
Dang, that's what I once told a publisher who had the emailed LOW RESolution example of my illustration printed on a book cover, instead of the high res, sent on a CD together with the typography and the design. 2000 books were printed with low res cover, not showing the fine details I'd put in. I said the production leader screwed up, for not noticing the mistake, that those who assembled it, had made. So, I get the point you make.

But still, what were the honing guys thinking?
When the engine seized after the first two tests, I wrote them an email about it, asking them what could have made the engine seize. All they replied with was: "A pity it didn't work out as we'd planned".

OVAL shaped PISTONS, or not?
I've also been measuring and measuring, over and over again, both the old pistons and if there's a difference between the longer and the shorter diameter of the oval, it's not more than 0.05 mm, which is 0.00197 inch, roughly 0.002".
The Lister LD manual I have doesn't say anything about the oval shape, when measuring the piston clearance doing maintenance. It just says: "measure it, it should be not less than this".
Could it be, that with these old engines, the oval shape wasn't yet invented, or that it isn't applied for every engine? Or is the 0.00197 inch difference in length and width of the oval shape about the expected margin?

DAMAGE TO PISTON
Here's a picture of the damage to Piston 1. It has similar damage at the opposite side. The grooves rubbed off, here.
Piston 2 has tiny traces of damage. The grooves still there, and all around.

17
Rob - quite a long way back in this thread you said that you had been supplied with oversized pistons because the cylinders had been honed.  When I read that I assumed you meant the cylinders had been bored to an oversize and you were just speaking casually. 
But, reading your comment re the piston skirts, I wonder if the cylinder has been bored correctly to suit the oversize pistons.  Do you know?
Just checking . . .
Cheers, Mike

Hi Mike,
I had brought the engine revision shop the old piston that had little pieces broken off, and the two, scratched cylinders, and had them do what they had suggested: find a supplier of new, slightly wider pistons for this particular engine (given the type, model and engine number) and hone the cylinders accordingly.

When I later picked up the new pistons and honed cylinders, how could I expect the clearance then to be not OK? It was their suggestion to do it like that, and their job to do that right, wasn't?

I don't think I did anything wrong, with the reassembly, or it was that it didn't come up in my mind, that I should find a way to check if they'd done the job right.
I think... but correct me when I'm wrong.


18
Hi Rob,
            I'm a newby to this forum but am an ex motor mechanic, (retired).
Did you notice any scars on the piston skirts, assuming they are alloy pistons, if so, the pistons are 'grabbing' the bores, due to insufficient clearance, if not, then it's likely the top rings are too tight, ( too little end gap), this gap should in your case be around 4 thou per inch of bore, 4x4 = 16 thou.
Hope you have a successful outcome.

Hi Matt,
i can't believe I hadn't noticed it yet, but indeed, one piston is clearly damaged in four places at its skirt. The other one a tiny little bit, but hardly.

So, then I thought, is it the cylinder, or is it the piston? I measured the clearances, at the top.
Piston 1 had 0.3 mm, piston 2 had 0.4 mm clearance.
Then I had the cylinders change place.
Piston 1 had 0.3 mm (0.0118"), piston 2 had 0.4 mm (.0157") clearance....
Meaning: the pistons aren't exactly of the same size, right? Not at the top, at least.

In inches, the measured difference between the pistons' diameters would be 0.0039".

Your suggestion and Glort's very first response (and my own in my 'opening speech', but that more due to not being hindered by any other knowledge) that the clearance between pistons and cylinder might not be enough, seems to be correct.
That fits to the picture of the damage.

Two inches down from the top, the clearance is about 75% of that at the very top of the cylinder, I noticed when I measured the ring gaps at the top (0.4 mm) of the cylinder, and further down (0,3 mm).

I'm not happy with these traces at the piston skirt, can you imagine...
I have to wait for the manual Jim Perkins sends me to see what the clearance should be.


19
You can't be that helpless, Glort! I have to do it all the time, go from mm to silly inches...
Here's a tool
https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/length/mm-to-inch.html

20

Have you got both cylinders off and checked the gaps of both lots of rings yet?

If so what were the gaps on each one with each ring?  Did you measure piston Clearance.

Hi Glort
yes but I'd already written so. at the top pf the cylinder the ring gaps are 0.4 mm. But 2 inch lower the gaps are just 0.3 mm (0.118 inch). All rings the same.

The piston clearance is around 0.3 mm (piston, when I had it lowered in cylinder, pushed to one side, feeler gauge at other side).

21
Hi Rob,
            I'm a newby to this forum but am an ex motor mechanic, (retired).
Did you notice any scars on the piston skirts, assuming they are alloy pistons, if so, the pistons are 'grabbing' the bores, due to insufficient clearance, if not, then it's likely the top rings are too tight, ( too little end gap), this gap should in your case be around 4 thou per inch of bore, 4x4 = 16 thou.
Hope you have a successful outcome.

Hi Matt,
thanks for the extra info. I'll check for scars at the pistons, today. But the 16 thou may not be correct, at least not for this particular engine, as earlier written by dieselgman. According to his data is has to be like double that distance. The Petter engine collector Jim Perkins says the same. He'll snail-mail me the manual today.
When pushed the rings into the cylinder for about 2 inches, the gap is only 0.3 mm, which is 0.118 inch. According to the proper manual for this engine (PetterPJ2) it should be 3 times that.

22
Hey Rob, honing tools come in different sizes for different size bores. Look on fleabay for one that will adjust to at least four inch. They also generally come with different abrasive heads, coarse, medium and fine.

Bob


Hi Bob, today I mail-ordered the proper honing tool with the proper 'sanding stones', honing oil, a piston ring opener, a 'tension wrench' that can handle the in the manual described force for the cylinder head bolts, and some more delicacies from the tool candy shop.
Before all that arrives, there's plenty to do: draining the oil from the block and cleaning it, cutting new gaskets, checking the shims or making a new one with the desired thickness.
And when Jim Perkin's package arrives with the manual, operation handbook, oil banjo bolts (one put in my engine wasn't properly fitting!) and two piston + .020 oil rings, I bet I'm going to have an interesting week after this weekend!

Here's the monster in the state I got it in, in 2011 (here without air cooling cover). It took me three years before I dared touch it. But all it needed for its first start was cleaning the fuel pipes (and a scooter engine to get the flywheel turning with enough speed).

23

Hi guys!
This video shows a honing tool. I knew it was something like that, but would this size be OK for my bigger cylinders?
https://youtu.be/-NRUZNX0IAg?t=642
Indeed, I'm not going to buy new pistons. They were expensive: 245 euro each. But I could do some light honing, to just get that one hardly noticeable scratch away, right?

I took both cylinders off, with the finger nail I can detect just one light scratch. Other lines are visible but I can't feel them, and I'm quite a sensitive guy, really ;-)! Most of my working hours so far were spent on illustration and design.

I let the pistons sitting on their rods and the crankshaft. There's really no vertical 'play' of the pistons. All the pistons can do is move sideways, over the pins they're attached to the rods with. The rods can not tilt one bit. I see no reason to dig into the block and take it all apart.

I got all other rings off the pistons without breaking any. Did that with sliding them up over three thin metal strips, one of them being a valve clearance feeler gauge.

I'll wait for the manual to arrive in the mail (and stuff) before adjusting the gap of the piston rings. The manual I was using so far, of a one cylinder air cooled Lister LD, actually had measures of the gaps equal to the ones of the new piston rings.

I'll ad the flyer for this engine (earlier I wrote it weighed 300 lb, but that's in kilos. It weighs 611 lb).
I also ad a photo of the boat it sits in, parked in an Amsterdam canal. It was an open life boat coming from a cruise ship. I build the cabin over it. Last summer I painted the black figures at the white hull. The wooden roof part and windows can be taken all off in 2 minutes. There it also has a fire place in it, for wood fire, oh yes! So, that's why I need this engine to work again. I missed 3 months of boating fun already!

24
Now I'm confused. In a catalogue in Dutch, the "schraper-veer", which, to me, seemed the Dutch word for scraper ring, is not the one I thought it was.

The one I broke was the 4th one, at the bottom side of the piston. It hides a spiral in it, that goes all around the piston and it has horizontal slits in its side. The Dutch catalogue has another name for it, with the word for "oil" in it.

What's its proper name in English, for the bottom ring that I broke?

Jim Perkins says he may have one, the plus .020 size. He's going to send me some stuff anyway. Otherwise I contact the online lister-petter shop.

25
You might want to feel the Rods and make sure there is no freeplay in the bearings. If there is any detectable movement especially in the big end, You'll want to do those as well whether it's a big job or not. Otherwise you could do damage and be pulling the whole thing down again anyway pretty soon.

You're not making me happy with this... I expect horizontal movement to be not a problem (even a necessity). Vertical it would be problematic. Before I did not feel any vertical freeplay, when I checked it for that purpose.

26

Have a look at the pistons. They may have something like +.005 stamped in the crown. Might also be .010 if the bores were heavily scored or worn to start with.

The new pistons say 020 at their top side.... I guess that's 0.020 inch extra, then.
The old pistons have "196695  S" engraved, there. Now what can that mean?

27
As far as using the old rings, it would seem likley that they overbored the cylinders when they did them and the pistons are also larger. You'll need to know what size they went over.

When you rebuilt the engine, Did you do any of the bearings or just the top end? Also, did you get the specs for the head bolts and torque them down with a tension wrench in the correct order to the right specs? If not, best you do this time.

Ah, yes, of course. The engine revision guys said they'd order slightly bigger pistons, because of the honing.

I didn't do any bearings. I took the cylinders off, and removed the pistons. Nothing else.

And with the reassembly I followed instructions for how to bolt in the right order as I wrote earlier. No 'force meter', but an instruction of how the force used should feel/ I don't have all the specialists' tools.

I MAY BUY ME ONE, though, after reading about the importance of it (protecting the gaskets).


28

If you se a line ( or several) run your fingernail across them and see if you can feel them.  If you can, will definitely need a hone, if you can't.... probably OK.

Be interesting to see some pics of the rings in the bore, the insides of the bores and the piston walls.

Hi Glort,
I now see you already gave an instruction to see if the scratches caused by too cramped piston rings are a problem. Most of them I can not feel with the nail. One I felt, though. I'll check again, all around.

29
PJ1 and PJ2 ring end gap  .029 to .037 inch
bump clearance .036 to .042
bore 3.8175 to 3.8185 inch

dieselgman

Hey dieselgman, I just measured the gaps of the first pistons' rings, when taken from the piston and put into the cylinder at the top side, and that was a bit over 0,4 mm, less than 0,45 mm being around 0,0165 inches.
(Photo attached to next post)
So, then indeed, the gaps are too small. They'd need double the size.

It means that ajaffa1 was spot on with his first comment!

Now shit happened. I still broke the 4th ring, the scraper ring. Dang! Got a bit confident I guess after the first three went OK. So, I'll see if Jim Perkins has one for me, part from the manual and an oil banjo bolt (replacing a wrong one put in by the life boat's former mechanic) he'll mail to me.
I still have the old pistons with intact rings, but they're a fraction thinner. I guess, worn a bit. What you think, guys? Would that indeed be a cause a problem?

I also see the tiniest vertical scratches, all the way down, in the wall of the first cylinder I just removed. How would I know which scratch is severe enough to demand new honing? And what if a second honing means a tinier wider cylinder, for the same pistons?


30
How many times have you run the thing when it locked up? Was it ever under load or making any power as in above idle?
Locking up an engine like that is a mechanical cringe fest.  Hopefully nothing bad has happened.

Also you will probably want new head gaskets as well. 

Hi Glort
I ran the engine a few times with no load. The first time it stopped itself after 2 minutes. The second time, I stopped it when it slowed down. The third time I had it run as slow as possible, no load. It then slowed down after 9-10 minutes so I turned it off. After each time it was impossible to turn the flywheel by hand, for like a minute or two.

The head gaskets I cut from material with metal thread in it, especially made for the hottest parts of an engine. Don't know the name of it. It's been awhile that I bought it. But yes, I'll cut new ones.

I'm very curious to see what the ring gaps are, tomorrow!

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