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Messages - asavage

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Waste Motor Oil / Re: Wmo
« on: February 28, 2011, 04:36:51 AM »
[quote author=DRDEATH link=topic=5574.msg67004#msg67004 date=1296937201So back to the auto industry I remember in the 70's when unleaded gasoline came out everyone said it would not work in vehicles not built for it. That was a hoax just to get people to trade. We used it in vehicles that had always used regular gas. [/quote]

Induction-hardened cast-iron valve seats did not hold up well to the removal of lead.

I've had to have several cast-iron heads machined to accept hard seats.  The engines would have decent compression, but the rotating valves would wear the seats down so far that the valves would become shrouded in the head, and little airflow could occur.  They'd run, but poorly, and the compression numbers wouldn't tell the whole story.  Rebuild the heads, new seats, and bingo!  Back in the saddle.

Engines with aluminum alloy heads have hard seats already, so little change was noticed with the removal of TEL, but I was seeing only about 40-80k miles on cast-iron heads on unleaded before we'd have to pull them and install hard seats.

So, it's not a complete fallacy that going to unleaded caused more wear.  I know it was a good move, to substantially reduce the lead in our environment, but there was a mechanical downside.

Some of this is due to the additional viscosity resulting in higher pressures. If effect changing the way the pump operates.

More than you may think.

For those not familiar with the Bosch VE-style IPs (injection pumps), the automatic timing advance is purely hydraulic: there are NO mechanical flyweights to advance the injection timing at the RPMs increase.

The lift pump is built-in to the front of the IP.  It's a vane pump, similar to most power steering pumps.  It serves two purposes: it pulls fuel from the fuel filter, and it pressurizes the IP's internals.  There is a timing piston that reacts to the IP's internal housing pressure and it acts against the cam plate over which the plunger rollers move, changing the timing.

This is all background: the Bosch VE-style IPs vane pumps have a pretty high wear rate, and gradually are unable to properly pressurize the housing, though they'll still work well enough to pull fuel from the tank etc.  This means that the effective IP timing becomes retarded at the higher RPMs only.  From my testing, this can't be detected with a Tach-n-Time, Ferret, Snap-On MT257, OTC, etc. piezo pickup injection timing setup, and probably not with an optical glowplug-hole pickup either, because Bosch engineered the VE-style IPs to not advance unless under load, and even then they have a feature they call Torque Control or something that retards the timing even under those conditions.

Summary: higher viscosity fuel may change the timing of a worn VE-style IP in a positive direction and may be a variable in how well an alternative fuel works in an old diesel having a worn IP.

Most of this info comes from the Bosch "Distributor Type Diesel Fuel Injection Pumps" softcover technical "Yellow Book" from Amazon.  It is slim, at 134 pages, but fairly dense.  It is chock-full of illustrations that are better than average.  It is also, unfortunately, a starkly translated manual and as such must be read with that in mind; it is very easy to misunderstand the intent of a statement, and this will lead you to incorrect conclusions that can be hard to bend back to reality later.

Here, I reproduce three pages  (click on any image for larger):

(I have some of the text OCR'd in this post on my site.)

Listeroid Engines / Re: Need your opinion on these big end shells
« on: August 20, 2007, 04:26:55 AM »
Does it matter much either way?  Don't the rings rotate to some extent anyway?

No, the rings do not rotate in operation.

Listeroid Engines / Re: Air Intake noise?
« on: August 20, 2007, 04:24:56 AM »
Mike, the 6/1 is about 85 or 1.4 litres displacement per gulp.  With 325 gulp cycles per minute that is a flow rate of about 85 X 325 = 27625 or 27625/1728= 16 CFM.  Someone who is not half asleep please correct me if I`m out to lunch on this.

Good enough, as far as it goes.  Due to the <100% volumetric efficiency, it's std practice to apply a factor to the theoretical volume.  For gassers, I use 0.7 .  I don't know what is typical for an unthrottled diesel, but maybe 0.8 ?

Your post makes me remember the Jack Nicholson flick where he is at a remote hotel in the winter,
chopping thru a door, pokes his head in and says "HERE'S JOHNNY"

Ah, The Shining

Listeroid Engines / Re: Cylinder sleeve cross hatching and other stuff
« on: August 03, 2007, 05:31:04 AM »
This crosshatching allows the rings to rotate and oil to lubricate - too great an angle and the rings rotate too quickly . . .
Don't think the rings will be rotating.  ::)  Piston rings aren't designed to move laterally in their lands when in operation.  If they did, the ring land wear would be horrible.

May as well address the "springyness" of rings as well: only need a bare amount.  All the real sealing pressure of the compression rings against the cylinder wall is pneumatic: compression pressure and combustion pressure is directed behind the ring (in the ring land) and pushes it outward.  Which is why coked up ring lands are such a Bad Thing (esp. prevalent when using viscous alternative fuels with unaltered injector orifices and/or no preheating or thinning, so I'm told).

Listeroid Engines / Re: Lovson 20-2
« on: March 12, 2007, 06:35:50 AM »
I bought 2 of the mini dolly(s) 1kduty rated each I placed 2, 2x3 across them and rolled my 20/2 around with ease. I think 2 devided over the 1,000 lb duty rated frame made it work.  You just can't let the engine sit on the dolly it flattens the wheels after awhile.

Here's how I use them (click on image for larger):

That genhead (MEP-018a, 10Kw) weighs the most of those three  (black = A4LD, shiny = L4N71b, diesel spec.)  Two are mine, two are the shop's.  I talked to a coworker today about them, and found out he put an 800 lb safe on one last week: it flattened the casters for a while.  The safe wasn't left on the dolly very long, and the casters seem to have bounced back OK.  He said the frame deflection wasn't too bad.

I thought I would have better luck finding a small electric oil pump on the net. All I can find is those scavenge oil pumps and they are 200.+ . I wonder if anybody else knows of a small oil pump (10 psi)or so.

There are people using the ShurFlo (or equivalent brands) in automotive preluber duty.  While I have reservations about the temp of the oil and these plastic pumps, apparently some folks are doing it.

I have managed to buy a couple of preluber pumps off eBay over the past couple of years, all-metal, nice units, but I don't think they're rated for continuous duty.  Pumping oil requires a fair amount of HP, even hot oil.

Listeroid Engines / Harbour Frieght's mover's dollies
« on: March 11, 2007, 09:39:25 PM »
Harbour freight does sell a 1000 lb mover's dolly for around 10.00.  I could put 3 or 4 of these inder the frame and could move it around smooth concrete surfaces.

If you're referring to the blue plastic framed ones ("1000 lbs"), be sure to derate them appropriately. 

I bought four of the plastic-framed ones two months ago and use them around the shop  Screw a piece of plywood to them and they're great for moving genheads around or transmissions (I've got two ATs on them and one genhead right now).  However, I wouldn't ever actually load one to 1k lbs!  They seem OK to 300 or 400 lbs though, if the floor is perfectly smooth.

They aren't $10 ea. here though, more like $17 for the wood framed ones and $20 for the plastic ones.  Click on the images to go to HF's site for them.

Listeroid Engines / Re: Listeroid Fasteners- Metric, Whitworth or BS?
« on: January 27, 2007, 05:43:40 AM »
Heli-Coil.  Or Time-Serts.

Listeroid Engines / Re: Metro 6/1 Improvemsnts
« on: January 22, 2007, 05:49:10 AM »
I might be able to make the offset bolt if I knew what it looked like. 

xyzer drew this, in this thread:

Reading further on, he may have modified this design for an offset idler bolt.

Listeroid Engines / Re: EPA Regulations for Stationary Engines
« on: January 12, 2007, 03:24:41 AM »
So the question really is are the Listeroids below the 50 cm3 threshold?
Here's the dataplate from a 20-2 (20 HP, 2 cylinder):

That's 3160cc  . . . for 20 HP, or about 160cc more than my 130 HP Aerostar.

Listeroid Engines / Re: rpm
« on: January 11, 2007, 04:36:31 AM »
I tried the Tiny Tach on my Jetta a few months back, simple to install and etc. but the "refresh" rate (1 sec) was way to slow to suit me... I sent it back.
To some extent, that's a problem with every digital tach I've seen.  Even my expensive Kent-Moores are fairly slow to update  -- but they were state-of-the-art 20 years ago  ::)

Listeroid Engines / Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« on: January 11, 2007, 04:18:03 AM »
. . .  it's more efficient to run DC directly rather than convert from AC.
How do you think an alternator works?  It generates 3-phase AC (via a rotating field, in automotive alternators) and runs the output of the delta (or wye) stator windings through six diodes (rectifiers).

I don't know as this is more or less efficient that running a battery charger from the main generator's output.

Listeroid Engines / Re: rpm
« on: January 10, 2007, 03:23:07 PM »
I haven't purchased one.  They use a piezo pickup, like my Kent-Moore J-33300 Tach-n-Time units do, or the Snap-On MT257(a).  The pickup clamps around one of the injector lines and senses the injection pulse.

Listeroid Engines / Re: rpm
« on: January 09, 2007, 05:36:27 AM »
Two more: low-tech Vibra-tach (I've owned one since about 1976), and high-tech Tiny-Tach.

Listeroid Engines / Re: "Kit engines".......where?
« on: December 04, 2006, 06:58:40 AM »
. . . that would be a violation of copyright law.

Geno: only if the images are copyrighted -- and, if they were, I assume that the copyright holder would be Quinn, not George.  But that's a side issue.  Be that as it may . . .

Quote from: Geno
Maybe you should just suggest someone else violate the law? Oh, wait, thats what you did.

The law to which you refer being copyright law?  I only want to see the images that he "lets" IE users see.  I have no interest in copying them, and as a maintainer of several hobby websites myself, I know firsthand how it hurts to have others use my work and call it their own.  I have had extensive original work lifted whole and copied to another site.  But I don't attempt user-agent-specific code to avoid that situation, because when you put barriers between your message and the recipient, you lose audience.

So when I typed, "Someone should put the text and images on a web page so everyone can see them, this looks like an interesting article," I meant just that.  Just like 99.5% of the rest of the web.  If I make information available on a webpage, I make it available.  Not just to IE users or Firefox users or even graphical-interface users.  If you want to browse my site using Lynx or whatever, you still have all the info I wrote available to you.  George hasn't, and that's a shame because he has a huge collection of good information.

Joe: I assume that one or several folks reading this right now have an established relationship with George.  That assumption is based on his name coming up every five posts ;)  I am not an influencer in George's world the way some of you are.  I put my initial suggestion out there to see if the "problem" was really a problem: if it only affects 1% of George's audience, who cares?  But if it's a larger problem than that, then perhaps someone should tell George that that page has a bunch of black squares where many of Quinn's pictures should be.  I showed why that happens specifically, and why it's not a Good Thing.

Sorry if I've ruffled feathers -- Geno, I'm talking to you here.  I respect others work and their rights.  I am also a vocal critic of Things That Don't Work.  And I know things and appreciate others who also know things -- which is why this is a good place to lurk or speak out, as the case may be.

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