Lister Engine Forum
How to / DIY => Engines => Topic started by: wess123 on July 19, 2019, 07:02:14 PM
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Hello!
i have a Lister ST1 diesel that was working properly but all of
a sudden it became hard to turn by the hand crank even when decompressed using the lever. can anyone help me
point out the problem knowing that it did not overheat at any point and it's well cleaned and lubricated.
Thanks in advance
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Hi Wess123, I suspect that we need a little more information but the most likely cause of the problem you describe is that the decompressor lever is out of adjustment. (please see the attached Lister instruction manual page) It could be that the valves are out of adjustment and fouling on the top of the piston at top dead center.
You claim that it has never been overheated, difficult to do with an air cooled engine, unless what you have is an STW1 which is water cooled. Water cooled engines are easy to overheat, inadequate fluid/water pump/fan belts etc.
You do not specify what your engine is coupled to but the fault could be with the driven not the driver.
Other possibilities include fluid in the cylinder water/oil/diesel. Excessive carbon build up on top of the piston, this is common in engines that are only lightly loaded. dribbling a little water into the air intake when it is running and hot will usually clear all but the most suborn deposits.
Let us know what you discover.
Bob
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All good advise offered by ajaffa (Bob) but then there are the ugly issues like bearings and rings. So start with the real easy simple stuff and progress down the list. Ensure you have plenty of oil in the sump and that it is NOT milky. Check the adjustment of your decompression lever to make sure it is working as designed. Lift the rocker cover off and check that the valves are fully closed and not touching the piston.
Then try pulling the injector to see if it is still tight to turn over. At this stage you might have bigger issues than first thought but hopefully not. If still having problems it is off with the head to see what is going on inside.
We can keep going with tips but lets see and hope it is an easy fix like an adjustment and keep us informed.
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Totally agree with Cobbadog, start by checking what is likely and simple to rectify then work your way through to more complex and expensive issues. Lister engines are reliable and long lasting, I`m guessing/hoping the problem is a simple adjustment issue.
Bob
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Thank you all for the tips i appreciate it. I will start with the adjustment of the decompression lever and valves then i will verify the oil quality and carbon deposits. Eventually if nothing solves the problem i will have to disassemble the engine and verify thr rings and all the bearings.
By the way the engine is coupled to a water pump
I'll keep you posted , have a great day!
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Disconnect the pump before going any further. That might be your problem.
Dirty oil in the sump wont make it tight to turn over but once running a full service will be a good thing to do.
When possible always add as much information when troble shooting a this helps identify possible issues.
Let us know how you get on as already mentioned by ajaffa, these are long lasting and usually reliable engines and is rare for a failure.
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Once again I agree with Cobbadog, disconnect the pump. An easy job if it is belt driven, much more difficult if it is close coupled.
I recently went to a neighbors property because she could not start her Honda/Davey water pump. She is elderly and I was expecting to be able to start it relatively easily, when I took a good pull on the starter I nearly dislocated my shoulder! I dismantled the Davey pump and found a length of fencing wire wrapped around the impeller. How it got there I have no idea but lesson learned!
Good luck,
Bob
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Thank you for your answers, i always disconnect the water pump ( belt driven) before cranking the engine since it makes the rotation much easier. However, i'm facing this problem without coupling the engine to anything. I'm going to take a closer look tomorrow and i'll keep you informed.
Thanks again.
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Keep us informed with your progress and good luck.
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Hello again guys! so i inspected the decompression lever and there was indeed some adjustment issues which i fixed. The engine became a bit easier to hand turn but not the same as before so the problem is kind of always there. The other problem i discovered is that it starts after a few attempts and by a few attempts i mean it starts when you're very close to dislocating your shoulder because you turned it too many times. When i turn it by hand to a reasonable speed and close decompression lever it usually doesn't start until the 5th or 6th attempt of doing the same procedure even when i continue turning a bit (with compression) even though i sometime see some smoke . This means i'm getting a power stroke but it's not powerful enough to start the engine which leads me to believe that the problem is with the fuel pump. When the engine starts, its behaviour is completely normal so my opinion is the effort done by hand is no longer sufficient for the pump to provide enough fuel to start te engine but the engine power is enough to properly turn the fuel pump. Since there isnt that many parts in this engine my guess is the fuel pump. what do you think my friends?
by the way the fuel injector is new.
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Are you using the 'cold start ' button when starting? Do you have the throttle open?
Check your air cleaner and try starting without it incase the filter is choking it.
Was the valve clearances checked and adjusted?
Your engine should start easier than you have described. Usually after you have the momentum of the crank and you release the decompression lever it should start and run with no problems.
Do you have a workshop manual and if so go to the section of setting up the throttle and adjusting the pump settings. If these are out a bit it could cause starting issues.
Our twin cylinder starts after just 2 cranks of the handle and release the decompression lever and so far I don't really need to use the cold start position but I have tried it and it worked ok.
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Hello and thanks for your reply, i can't seem to find the cold start button on my engine, the throttle is fully open when i crank start it and the valves are properly adjusted recently. However, i'm not sure if the fuel pump is properly adjusted or not and i have no idea how to do it but from what i can see the engine runs normally but the difficult starting problem remains. as i said before when i turn it manually and reach the proper momentum it doesn't start after releasing the decompression lever, it requires a few turns after the release and sometimes it doesnt start even with that. By the way the air filter is new. I did all i could to narrow my choices and now in my opinion it comes down to the fuel pump. how can i verify if it is the source of the issues and if it is how can i adjust it? thanks in advance
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G'Day mate,
Search this Forum or do a Google search for a workshop manual for your engine. This will help you a lot in finding where and how to set the cold start as it is not a button rather than a lever to lift and turn on the pump itself.
you also may have an air leak if it is not starting so well but does eventually so have a quick look at all your connections and that all air is bled from the system from the fuel tank to the pump including the fuel filter.
Once you have a manual you can then have a look at how your pump is set and timed. Sorry if I could I would describe it for you but I have not done this adjustment as yet as I have had no reason to do so. Keep us informed and the manual should be found and should be a freeby.
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First thing that needs answered here is it stiff to turn at any postion of the handle as if there is binding? Or is it stiff to turn because the decompression is not working properly? If you can not dicern which it is then you need to remove the injector, turn it and report your findings.
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Hello guys!
sad update: today the engine gave up and it won't start, all i see is some dark smoke and it failed to start after trying all day. I found the cold start lever, it didn't help and i fixed the decompression lever properly today and it became easy to turn by hand. I checked and there are no air leaks in the system.As for the injector it's less than two months old so in my opinion it's probably not the origin of the problem. I guess now it came down to the fuel pump and honestly i don't know where to begin with it.
As always looking forward to hearing your opinions my friends.
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It's unlikely to be the injection pump if it runs fine once started.
Things that affect diesel starting are compression, injection timing, spray pattern, valve timing ...also for an engine that runs well once started, air getting into the injection pump/fuel line is a common problem. The latter possibility becomes more likely if it is easy to start if run recently...as it would take some time for the air to slowly get into the line. Slow weeps of diesel fuel in lines, filter or at IP are also an indicator of air being your culpret.
The spray pattern should be checked as it's easy. Pull the injector, loosen the high pressure line and swing it away from the cylinder, reinstall injector. Being careful to avoid injecting fuel into your skin, use a coffee can or similar and watch the pattern while cranking. It should be a pulse of fine fog-like particles. A big of crud on the tip of the injector can foul things up, and yes, you could have a problem with a 2 mos old injector nozzle.
For valve and IP timing, you should check the manual. It's possible that having it off a bit will still allow it to run OK, but be hard to start. While your injector is out and connected, you can slowly crank and see where it's firing relative to TDC on the flywheel, assuming it's marked. Retarded injection timing will normally cause a loss of power and sluggishness to respond to throttle. Advanced injection timing will cause more diesel knock.
I don't have an ST-1 so these are only generalities, but I've seen them all on my other diesel engines.
The exhaust valve is now suspect since your failure was started by the decompressor getting out of adjustment. I'd sure listen to that carefully while it was pulled through compression, even going as far as pulling the exhaust pipe or manifold to hear better.
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Sounds right too but what is "GP's" never heard of this abbreviation.
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Hi Wess123, sorry to read that you are still having problems. I have a copy of the original service/maintenance manual. Sadly I cant post it to the forum because it is too large a file, send me a PM and I will try to email it to you.
Bob
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Cheers Glort, now I know what gp is.
Try to avoid feeding either down the throat of any engine on a regular basis. It will shorten what life it has left and is an indication it is low on compression or needs a major service on the injectors and pump.
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Hello guys
i checked all the syspect components but the fuel pump and nothing seems out of the ordinary, can anyone tell me how to check and/or how to adjust the fuel pump?
thanks in advance
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Here are some lousy, barely readable but still better than nothing picture I took with my ancient cell. Hope you have some way to zoom them.
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I see the resolution is over the top but let me know if you need this information but can't work with it. I can tone down the resolution and try again. Two more attachments.
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Pull the injector out and reconnect it so you can see the spray pattern when you crank the engine.
If the pattern is good then it's likely both pump and injector are good.
If it's not then it could be either, take the injector to the local shop and get it tested, if the injector is good, repeat the test and probably the pump, or it's pluming,is at fault.
Just 'cos the injector is fairly new doesn't mean it's not playing up.
Might help!
Cheers
Stef
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You put me on the defensive glort .
This is how it works for me. I use windows XP. I put my pointer on the images here in this forum and right click. I then select save image as and pick a place to put it in my computer. All I have to do then is point and click on the saved image and windows picture and fax loads it automatically. I can then zoom it in and am able to read what I posted. A couple of those pictures are high def and don't need zooming but they were taken on a much better camera.
I see where I have redundancy and didn't send one of the pictures so here is that one. All of this may be academic anyway as wess123 may already have this stuff.
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Just curious, when was the engine last decoked?