Lister Engine Forum

How to / DIY => Everything else => Topic started by: old seagull man on May 30, 2019, 02:57:46 PM

Title: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: old seagull man on May 30, 2019, 02:57:46 PM
Hi All;

I have been offered at a very good price an new old stock one of these units.

An was wondering if anyone had any experience with them?

What i was thinking is i could put the speed sensor on the output shaft of the gen head and control the engine speed with the unit and always have a 1500 rpm generator no matter the load.
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: glort on May 30, 2019, 05:42:51 PM

Seem to be working well for this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJs1tS4sJM4

Been thinking of one of these myself. Can you get more than one at the right price?   :laugh:
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: old seagull man on May 31, 2019, 04:10:32 AM
No Sorry mate, but this is not a bad price for the lot.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ESD5500E-Engine-Speed-Controller-MSP6729-Magnetic-Speed-Sensor-ADC120-actuator/143230026989?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144

Its exactly the same as the picture my mate sent. he works for a mining company, and it was in the stock to be cleaned up.
You you don't need a cheap 250kw 3 phase motor do you? make a good induction generator.
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 31, 2019, 09:43:18 AM
Hi OSM, thanks for posting that, I have been looking for a reasonably priced generator speed controller for a while, having watched the video posted by Glort, I think that may be just what I`ve been looking for. It has the huge advantage that, in the event of a controller failure (usually due to lightening strikes around here), it would probably only take about ten minutes to reinstate the original governor and be back up and running.

Bob

Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: glort on May 31, 2019, 10:35:15 AM

 That IS a good price. I have been looking at these things for years on alliexpress and Bangood and they were a good bit more than that, early 300's if memory serves.

A 250KW Motor?? Wow! I have a 5 Cyl, 3.0L diesel engine out my first merc  sitting here I haven't been able to part with, same as what Bruce has.  Even that wouldn't be able to drive the thing to full output.  I have a 12 Kw I have been working with ( thought it was bigger :0( ) and that weighs 170 Kg. I reckon a 250 KW must be 2-3 tons.  Not going to able to move that round with my Modified engine crane... ned a decent forklift to that thing.

One of those Governors would be good for putting on my 13 or 30 Hp diesels to drive the IMAG.
I wonder how they would go when the IMAG was hooked to a  Solar GTI ?  The MPPT of the GTI's tends to make the engines hunt as they ramp up and down trying to find the sweet spot for the power production.  Be interesting to know if these electronic governors could be set up to over come that.

Would be a big ask and very impressive if they could combat it even partially.
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: old seagull man on May 31, 2019, 11:56:39 AM
Thanks Guys, the most expensive part of the setup is the actuator.
Bob i have see the units as cheap as 60-70 Dollars.
So you could almost afford a spare if you needed it to be bomb proof.
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: glort on June 01, 2019, 04:55:52 AM

I have often thought of using the old Cruse Control for Vehicles as a governor. they used to be available as kits.
You put a magnet on the tail shaft and a sensor nearby and it basically tried to keep the shaft turning at the same rate I guess.  Couldn't see why it wouldn't actuate a throttle on a stationary engine the same way off a flywheel.
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: old seagull man on June 01, 2019, 12:48:30 PM
Thought the same thing, put one on dads holden statesman, years ago.
Most of the ones you can get these days have a vacuum operated servo, so no go.
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: glort on June 01, 2019, 01:07:50 PM

I wonder how much air/ vac they would use?
Might be possible to vac down an old BBQ bottle and use that as the Vac source.
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: EdDee on June 03, 2019, 11:02:43 AM

I wonder how much air/ vac they would use?
Might be possible to vac down an old BBQ bottle and use that as the Vac source.

Run a alt off a diesel ute - 12v charging plus a small vaccuum pump that normally gets routed to the brake booster....
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: old seagull man on June 03, 2019, 01:01:21 PM
Brilliant idea, looking on fleebay now.  :) ;D
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: glort on June 14, 2019, 03:10:10 AM

Have you looked into the speed controller or the cruise control any more OSM?
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: old seagull man on July 16, 2019, 12:51:37 PM
Yes and no. The unit uses a proximity sensor to count the teeth on the prime power flywheel. To monitor the engine speed.
The mighty Shifing is hand started so the flywheel has nothing to count. An one of the boys decided they needed it for a job they were doing so, I'm out of luck.
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: EdDee on July 16, 2019, 03:16:32 PM
As usual, I'm jumping in half way with no clue whatsoever...

What about putting the prox adjacent to the blades on the genhead pickup.... Don't forget to set up some sort of safety for belt breakage etc that would rev the guts out of the system when it thinks its at low/0 rpm....

Otherwise, an internal mount in the sump to pick up rpm from the cam gear teeth.....(Or maybe a hole drilled in the case?)

Just spitballin'...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: glort on July 16, 2019, 11:43:33 PM
Yes and no. The unit uses a proximity sensor to count the teeth on the prime power flywheel. To monitor the engine speed.

Have you bought one yet?
Just talking with no knowledge or experience but are you sure it needs teeth?

I looked up the manual and the standard range of the Pick up is 7000 Hz. That's not going to be a lot of teeth especially on a motor doing normal RPM.
If you were to place 4 magnets on the flywheel, at 600 RPM that would be 2400 Hz which should be plenty for this to work from.  If you did 8 magnets that would be 4800 and have to be enough for a sensor that has a normal range of 7000Hz. I can't see a lower limit so I'm thinking that a single point may also be enough.

As there is not settings on the controller for the number of teeth on the flywheel, it's just counting the interruption frequency and calculating from there. It says in the manual it sets idle speed at 600RPM from 1000 Hz. From that, would seem to me that on a 600 RPM engine you'd only want a single pick up point to tell the controller to throttle back otherwise the thing is going to think it's idling when the engine it's on is going to be flat out. Watch out if it decides to go to working speed!

In my non existent knowledge of engine control, counting teeth is usually done for timing purposes, so the computer knows where the engine is in it's rotation for fuel injection, spark, variable cam timing etc.
As this thing is only controlling speed, I would suggest a much lower frequency would be fine and from what I can see, it is.
I have a little electronic Tach from flea bay and that uses a small neo Magnet you just stick on the fly wheel and it counts from that. The pickup looks like what I see in these Speed controller Kits. I would be just sticking on 4 magnets as evenly paced around the flywheel as you could and I'd be more than certain that would work.

 I know beans about these but seems odd they would need an 80 tooth gear or whatever to count just for rpm and if they did, I'd imagine it would be in the kit.  In any case if they do need a gear which from the manual, I highly Doubt, what about just getting a ring gear ( or flywheel)  off a car engine and bolting that to the  engine or even the gen head Pulley. Shouldn't make any difference where you put it. 
If you need a ring gear let me know and I can probably acquire you one.

I would definitely encourage you to buy some little Neo magnets though and try them. I get the feeling one may be enough but would be pretty certain from what I'm reading you'd easily get away with 4. You could probably glue strips of  fridge magnet on the flywheel or pulley and it would work off that as the signal the pickup needs is very low and pretty much just an interruption. 
From what I can see, I wouldn't be surprised if these things would run off the keyway of the engine or generator shaft with no magnets at all or if the woodruff key protruded from the flywheel or pulley and you could sense off that. The key or Keyway   would be doing 1500 RPM/ Hz on the alternator and should be well in the frequency range of the sensor like that even if it were not fast enough on the engine. I think it would be though. 
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: BruceM on July 17, 2019, 02:46:38 AM
A two piece steel sheet "rim" bolted to the hub with holes or slots would also suffice to keep a inductive coil pickup system happy.  I did experiment with one before going another way.

I instead used a Cherry brand gear tooth sensor on my CS for speed sensing; it uses a tiny magnet within the unit and hall sensor to detect teeth or slots in ferrous materials. The spokes on the flywheel sufficed, I didn't have to use magnets.  I use the PICaxe 40X2 chip to compute RPM in this manner for starting and engine monitoring.  The generator isn't always operated as it's a dual air/genny setup. 

For my neighbor's setup we used 4 tiny magnets on the CS flywheel hub just as Glort suggested, with a hall effect sensor (about a buck each) and a little frequency to voltage IC to turn it into a DC voltage that could be easily remotely monitored via analog panel meter.

Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: dieselspanner on July 17, 2019, 07:24:54 AM
I don't know what my mate did for the rev counter, but the pick up is from a hall effect switch with four magnets mounted on the camshaft retaining collar. The whole thing then is hidden safely under the cover.
a very tidy set up

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: AdeV on July 17, 2019, 07:51:11 AM
In my non existent knowledge of engine control, counting teeth is usually done for timing purposes, so the computer knows where the engine is in it's rotation for fuel injection, spark, variable cam timing etc.

Even then, it doesn't count teeth. On most flywheels that are used by ECUs to set timing, there's a set of "fins" that kinda look like teeth, but are actually a make/break for a sensor. The gap between make/break tells the computer how fast the engine is turning at any given instant, and there's a single gap where one "fin" is missing; this gives the ECU the absolute rotational position of the engine. That's still not quite enough for a four-stroke though... so there's also one (or sometimes more) cam sensors; these tell the ECU which part of the rotation cycle it's on. So before your engine fires up, first it reads the crank sensor, then it reads the cam sensor, and once it's got known good signals to both, it can start applying fuel/ignition as needed.

If you google for "BMW S62 flywheel", look at some of the lightweight wheels, they clearly show the "tabs" that I'm on about, just inside the ring gear. I tried linking to a picture, but t'interwebs is being a PITA just now.
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: mikenash on July 17, 2019, 08:55:41 AM
Dunno if it's worth mentioning, but some of the big diesel engine controllers we use take a RPM signal off the alternator.

More revs = more hz I guess
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: BruceM on July 17, 2019, 04:10:58 PM
The inductive type pickups are also quite common - an oscillator circuit is applied to a small coil in the sensor, the presence of ferrous material close to the coil changes the inductance of the coil, which is sensed.  They use more power and generate a fair bit of EMI.

For my neighbor's spark modified CS clone, I decided to save a bit of power by quashing the wasted spark. I didn't think of the nicer far side camshaft -magnet-hall effect method Stef showed, but instead sensed a magnet on the IP cam follower.  That hall switch powered the second one sensing a magnet on the flywheel.  That was the trigger for a 555 cmos timer which generated a pulse for a GM spark module.  Pulse width determined coil charging time, spark at falling edge of pulse, so flywheel magnet location had to lead spark timing by the fixed coil charging time.  Took some experimenting to get the timing just right, facilitated by fast setting cyanoacrylate.
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: glort on July 17, 2019, 11:30:35 PM

I needed a comparator chip for a stand alone PWM solar heating circuit I'm building and bought 20x 555's on fleabay for  $1.20 Au Delivered.
I could have got 10 for $1 but for the extra .20C, I thought I'd buy a lifetime supply ( to go with all the other components I have a life time supply of sitting in boxes) and be done with it. 
I was paying more than a dollar each for those things when I was a kid. Can't believe how cheap they are now! They MUST be loosing money at that price just on processing the order.

Of course if I bought them from the US, the postage would have cost me $ 89.95. >:(

Might be able to use a couple to drive a fuel injector and make myself a Pulse Jet engine that is electronicly driven.
Save on those pesky reed valves and make tuning a valveless a lot easier.  :laugh:
Title: Re: ESD 5500E engine speed controller unit
Post by: BruceM on July 18, 2019, 12:12:18 AM
Most of the old famous ICs and microprocessors are still being made.  Not so with power transistors of various sorts; they pass into oblivion rather quickly. 

The newer micropower components by Microchip are damned impressive.  Quiescent currents of a few microamps for quad comparators, and around 20 uA for a 5V op amp with 100K bandwidth.  Others have them too, some are rail to rail inputs and outputs as well. Analog has never been better.

The range of applications for MOSFETs keeps getting bigger too, several manufacturers now provide full SOA data (safe operating area) for linear operation.  I converted my linear PV charge regulator over to MOSFETs instead of Darlington Bipolars last year...by luck of design, no circuit changes were needed but the power requirements dropped substantially, and the capacity increased nicely as well.

Alas, wildfire smoke has me laid low, health wise, so projects are on hold.