Lister Engine Forum
Slow Speed Diesel Engines => Other Slow Speed Diesels => Topic started by: ajaffa1 on February 13, 2019, 12:28:10 AM
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Hi Guys, I am awaiting the delivery of a Southern Cross ETB 2.5 HP diesel engine. Manufactured in Australia circa 1950, they were also manufactured briefly in South Africa. This engine has sat in a mate`s shed for the last 20 years. I have finally persuaded him to part with it for free! :)
Sadly it is incomplete, missing the fuel injector, pump and fuel lines. The originals would have been made by an Australian company called Pyrox, who manufactured injectors and pumps under license from Bosch.
I have been unable to find much out about the missing items but believe they are very similar to the units used on a Lister CS 3/1. I suspect that I might have to change the injector nozzles and fiddle with the pop pressures a bit to get them to work properly. Any thoughts please?
I have attached a photo of a complete ETB I found on the internet, probably a breach of someone`s copyright, for which I apologize in advance. I will post photos of my unit once it arrives.
Bob
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Perhaps Rob at OldTimer Engines could help with a suitable pump?
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Thanks Mike, I`ve been looking at a few Youtube videos and it would appear that the injector pump timing must be adjusted with shims as there is no access to the plunger or cam that drives it. Interestingly the fuel injector is side mounted in the head.
I`ll flick an email to Rob once I get the engine here.
Bob
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Hi Glort. when I bought my Lister CS, the farmer also had a YBT. I chose the Lister because it turned over, while the other was seized. Parts for Lister engines are readily available,.New parts for old Southern Cross engines would have to be manufactured at huge cost. That said, you only have to look at the work being done by 38ac to see what can be achieved by a determined and skilled individual.
When it gets dark here I can see the entire Milky Way in the sky, No wonder that earlier people worshiped the heavens and learned to use them to navigate the globe.
Bob
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You guys have all the best old engines over there :(
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I'm "centrally located" aka middle of nowhere, at 5600 ft and the night sky is very bright here too; the plane of the Milky Way is obvious. A big reminder of how very small we are, even within our own galaxy.
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"A big reminder of how very small we are, even within our own galaxy. "
Or that someone stole the damn tent while I was asleep.....
E
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Years back I read something to the effect of....
'How amazing would it be if there was another sentient life form out there, somewhere. How amazing would it be if there wasn't?'
Cheers
Stef
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Well guys, the 1955 ETB landed in my shed today. It is missing a few bits but I am hopeful that I will be able to find these at old timer engines. An early inspection suggests that it has suffered water ingress at some time. The piston is OK but the bore is badly corroded and will need sleeving. I attach a couple of photos just to make you all envious. If anyone has any information about these engines please let me know.
Bob
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Hi Glort, sadly I no longer drive so going anywhere generally involves days of careful negotiation with She who must be obeyed!
Having looked at fuel injectors, I am convinced that an injector from a Lister CS 3/1 could work well if I adjusted the pop pressure a little. I might have to turn up an adapter sleeve to ensure a good fit and fabricate a hold down plate.
There is a guy in Toowoomba that has some spare parts for these engines, I will be contacting him this week and let you know how I go.
Bob
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Further to my last post, I have just taken the rocker cover off and found a missing bolt in the rocker assembly, nothing that can`t be replaced. I also noticed that the diaphragm on this engine is built into the rocker cover allowing hot oil fumes to lubricate the rocker gear and valves. I also noted that this must be one of the earliest engines to have tubular push rods with toughened steel inserts at either end, I thought that was introduced by the Japanese in the 1970s.
One of the cylinder head bolts is nearly rusted through (see photo)
Bob
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Hey Glort, It`s a nice dream but that`s all it is. Can I recommend you take your medications with food and maybe have a short lie down after.
The corroded cylinder bolt is very odd, I wonder if there is a leak in the cylinder gasket which blew hot gasses and humid air onto it for years. Either way it`s got to be replaced and before that I am going to have plenty of fun trying to get the old one out.
Bob
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Hi Bob
that's it Bob, nothing like having a "carcass", always on hand so the brain has to do it - a good old machine to do a "peeling".
And negotiations with "She" to drive, is only a necessary evil for a greater good. I'm in your page... she call's basement the "office", and other things "I don't remember".
Last thursday I asked for transportation assistance from a friend (82 years) to my 12/2 block, to lay it down in my parents' place, and along the way people asked the reason I wanted that engine (they see it as scrap). The only answer I could muster was that it was to preserve some history of the village.
I promised them that engine will show his smoke...
Cheers.
VP
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Well done Pedrosa for being the person in your village who cares about your history and heritage. Once you have it restored and on show, the local people will stand and stare in awe at the simplicity and beauty of this old engine. They will also be ashamed and wonder why they never thought to preserve such a wonderful item themselves.
Now that you have got it home you get the joy of cleaning 60 or more years of crap out of it. When I did mine I got so dirty my wife would not let me in the house. I had to strip off all my clothes outside!
Good luck, have fun.
Bob
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Hi Glort, having grown up and spent most of my life in the UK I learned that taking ones clothes off outside was a bad idea, not because we Brits are shy or prudish but because it is too bloody cold! :laugh:
Bob
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Having 13 acres of man
cave plain, a rule has come about: If you don't like what you see, look away...
Walking butt naked from the front yard through the house to my room to shower has happened before... Not because I am going to get shat out for leaving a trail of oil/grease/debris, but because I am the one that has to clean it up... One of the very few disadvantages of being a bachelor.... On occasion, particularly hot weather, the tenants bring me a beer while I am waist deep in grease and grime, closely followed by "Why don't you go have a nice cool shower...I'll clean up after you...." That usually means there are friends over, they bribe me with a frosty to avoid shocked looks from the visitors... ;D ;D ;D
Lol
Ed
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Hi Guys. I have been wondering how Butch manages to insert images in between his text rather than at the end. There is a button on the post screen called "Insert Image" it has a very small picture of the Mona Lisa on it. When I click on this icon it places IMG text on the post but does not tell me how to insert the image. I am guessing that the attachments and other options button is used to insert the first image up to 4 per post. Anyone know how this works?
Bob
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Hi Ed, I very much doubt I will be able to persuade the Wife to do the "clearing up after me while I have a shower" bit. If we have guests and I am dirty I just get banished to the shed until they leave. In the past some of the guys have come down to my shed to see what is going on, it`s usually more interesting than the conversation the Ladies are having. One cold refreshment leads to another (all quality home brewed beers), before you know it all the men are in the shed drunk as skunks and all the Ladies are furious with us for our bad behavior. No wonder we don`t have many visitors these days. :laugh:
Bob
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Hi Guys, sorry it has taken me so long to post an update. Even when I was a young man, I was never the quickest worker. Now I am old and buggered up things take forever. That said I have completed the tear down of my ETB engine. Not an easy task for a man who can`t pull on a spanner, every nut and bolt involves beating the spanner with a rubber mallet! >:(
While this rebuild will take me months I will post some photos as I go.
My first impression of the engine was that a 2.5 HP four stroke diesel engine is rather pointless, my push mower has a 6 HP petrol engine! I have changed my opinion, I can see how a farmer in the 1950`s might want a small cheap and reliable engine to run a small irrigation pump or charge battery storage, it could also have been use for driving conveyor belts or even cooling fans.
I am astonished at the build quality, that a small foundry in rural New South Wales could produce such good castings and then machine them so well in 1950 is extraordinary. Where did they get the foundry men and machinists from, who put up the capital for what must have been state of the art production equipment back then.
A few early observations are that this engine has a duplex drive chain to run the camshaft and a simplex drive chain to drive the oil pump. The crank shaft and all bearings are pressure fed with only the cam followers and open camshaft bearings being splash lubricated. Very advanced for an agricultural engine that must have been designed in the 1940`s.
While I have cleaned and primed the outside of the crank case, I am in two minds about painting the inside. This engine was built in 1955, so, working on the basis that the original owner was lazy and only changed the oil every year, this engine has had 50 plus changes and that should have flushed out any casting sand and other detritus. It has been degreased and pressure washed, there is some rust which I have mechanically removed, should I treat it or not?
Anyway a few photos to keep your interest.
Bob
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Did you have much trouble taking out the head bolt?
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Hi Guys, I was expecting terrible trouble with that corroded cylinder head stud but I think that the thing was so wasted that it had stretched and was loose. All the bolt are UNC or UNF, the head studs are UNC into the block and UNF at the head end. I`ll probably have to make replacements. I only broke one stud during disassembly (timing gear cover) fortunately there was enough stud left protruding to get a wrench on it. The engine came with one stud that had sheared off below the surface of the crankcase, I drilled it and got it out with an easyout, happy days! :)
This engine is intended to run at around 1500 RPM but the power take off is from the camshaft which will only be running at 750 RPM so Glort`s idea of running a car or truck alternator to charge a battery bank looks like a good one, just got to get the gearing right. I think that I will probably make a small trolley for this engine, it is small enough to easily take to a show.
I have tracked down a man in Toowoomba, where these were originally made, he has a limited supply of spare parts including an injector and pump, saves me the trouble of trying to source suitable alternatives from Bosch.
Anyway it`s time for me to go and get dirty again, got to get as much done as I can before the end of the month when I am having the first of two surgeries on my hands. I`ll post more this evening.
Bob
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Well done with the easy out, takes a level of calm and skill I struggle to attain!
Best of luck with the hands.
Stef
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Thanks Stef, I am just like you, I hate having to use Easy outs, there is nothing easy about them! They generally work well if you have a steel bolt in a steel or cast iron hole where you can apply a little heat to loosen things up. They are completely useless in the case of a steal bolt in an aluminium castings where they usually just strip the thread out. I remember many years ago having exactly that scenario and deciding to drill out the damaged hole before taping a thread into it, I then made a threaded aluminium stud which I screwed into the hole, this was cut off flush with the face of the casting. My intention was to drill and tap a new hole into the now filled hole, so to secure the aluminium stud in place I got out the TIG welder. Big mistake, turned out the casting was magnesium alloy and I nearly burned the shop down, took two buckets of sand to extinguish the flames and I couldn`t see properly for days! :laugh:
Not too worried about the surgery, it`s supposed to release pressure on the nerves. If it works then I will have no further deterioration and might even recover some of what I have lost. If it doesn`t work then I am f*cked, but since I am already f*cked it doesn`t much matter. I believe the recovery time is about a month and then I have to go for more physiotherapy. Not looking forward to having to sit and do nothing again, there is only so much Judge Judy and Dr Phil that a man can watch without going mad! :laugh: Unfortunately as soon as I recover from the first surgery they are going to schedule the second surgery on the other hand,. This will be followed by another round of daytime television and physiotherapy. I can only assume that this is my punishment for being a horrible c*nt in a previous life.
Bob
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Well Guys, I got good and dirty again and managed to strip and free up the seized oil pump, this is a very nice little unit with spring loaded impeller vanes, it has some surface pitting but should be OK. I also had a lot of fun with the oil strainer which was solid with a mixture of dirt, rust and solidified sump oil, it has been soaking in a vat of petrol for a week, hitting it with a pressure washer has cleared out the last of the crap . Both are now clean and functional and have been fitted to the crankcase.
I also had a go at cleaning up the camshaft, it also has some rust pitting but I think I can polish out most of this with some very fine wet and dry paper or flour paper.
Photos attached,
Bob
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Hi Guys, Yesterday I managed to get the crankshaft back in the ETB. It has some rust pitting on it most of which I have polished out. I did consider having it reground but having measured the journals I found the main bearings to be only a half a thou under size while the big end shows only one thou of wear. I do not plan to put this engine to work, instead I plan to get it to running condition and then take it to a couple of shows, it will probably run for less than a dozen hours a year. While I would have liked to rebuild this to as new condition I cannot justify the expense, so it is just going to be a toy, I very much doubt that the small amount of rust pitting will be a problem with those sorts of running hours.
The main bearing bushes are solid brass units with a white metal coating and are in remarkably good condition. I spent most of yesterday messing around making gaskets out of various sized material until I got the crankshaft end float down to five thou, the manual states a minimum of two thou but gives no maximum, I think five should be fine.
Today I refitted the camshaft with new bearings, the originals had corroded solid. I could not get open bearings as per the originals and had to pay for sealed bearings and dig out the seals, I also flushed out all the grease as these are going to be splash lubricated with sump oil inside the crankcase.
Tomorrow I am hoping to get the timing chain back on but I have come up against an interesting problem, the manual states that with the crankshaft at top dead center, the two timing marks on the drive sprockets need to be in line. The problem is that there are three marks on the crankshaft sprocket and two on the camshaft sprocket. Fortunately I took a lot of photos during disassembly and should be able to work it out.
Anyhow I`ve posted a few picture to give you all something to look at.
Bob
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Looks good Bob. Re those "unsealed" bearings. Do you reckon they'll be OK metal-to-metal if you have flushed them out until some of the splash feed dribbles down to them? Just a thought. Will be interested to see it running. Thanks for the photos & updates. Cheers, Mike
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Hi Mike, all good, everything is being lubricated with a heavy duty diesel lubricant as I go. This engine also has an oil pressure bypass valve with a spring load indicator rod which rises out of the crankcase indicating that there is adequate oil pressure before dropping the decompression lever, the idea being to ensure everything is lubricated before any internal fire begins. A very simple and ingenious alternative to an oil pressure gauge.
I got in serious trouble with she who must be obeyed today, she went out for what was supposed to be three hours, I decided that this would be a perfect opportunity to boil the old timing chain in detergent sump oil to remove rust and etc. I lit the barbecue and filled an old stainless steel cooking pot with sump oil, once it got to temperature I dumped the old chain in it and started stirring, at this point my Wife returned and was very unimpressed that the whole house stank like a car mechanic`s workshop! Wife is still pissed but the chain looks good.
I decided I would tackle the job of cleaning the aluminium flywheel shroud today, what a bastard of a job! The fly wheel oil seal must have been leaking for the last sixty years, the inside of the shroud was covered in a mixture of oil and dust which had decayed into something resembling tarmac! I hit it with everything I could think of: degreaser, petrol, diesel, pressure washer, caustic soda, sand blaster all to no avail. In the end I spent seven hours doing it with a hammer and chisel. I was planning to paint the inside of the shroud with an etch primmer but I think it will have to stay as it is, I just don`t have the strength to clean it any better than it now is. I did manage to clean the outside to a respectable condition and give it a couple of coats of etch primmer.
Anyway I`m knackered and going to bed, I`ll try to fit the timing chains tomorrow,
Bob
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Hey Glort, thank you for your encouragement. I suspect that this engine is probably good for another couple of thousand hours but only time will tell. I don`t believe that the reason for this effort is to produce a useful working engine but instead to salvage a bit of our industrial heritage for the next generations to admire, enjoy and hopefully appreciate.
I am hoping to have this done before my surgery at the end of this month, sadly I won`t have the new injector pump and injector by then so first smoke could be a while.
Bob
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Hi Glort, I to love the simplicity of an oil pressure indicator, the one in the photo is f*cked and I will have to make a replacement. The idea is so simple, there is an oil pump which delivers oil to one of the main bearings, this oil then flows through the crankshaft to the big end bearing and then on to the other main bearing. Once the pressure rises to an adequate level it overcomes the spring on the plunger mechanism allowing oil to bypass the main crankshaft journal and spill out onto the timing chain. The oil then flows back down into the bottom of the timing chain cover where it lubricates the oil pump chain which is immersed in it. Engineering perfection, everything lubricated with a minimum of moving parts! :)
I love the idea that you crank this engine until the pressure indicator rises before releasing the decompression lever, such a simple way of guaranteeing longevity.
I think your experience of women is similar to mine, love them to bits but couldn`t eat a whole one in one sitting! :laugh:
In fairness I wouldn`t be here without the nursing care my wife gave me and I can`t imagine a life without her.
I am glad you raised the issue of birthdays, it is my wife`s birthday tomorrow (10 March), I`m hoping we can go for lunch somewhere but she has a medical appointment on Monday and the doctors have prescribed beta blockers before those tests can be done. She took the first pill this morning and has been wasted ever since, she took another pill about an hour ago and I will probably have to carry her to bed. On the upside she probably won`t remember it`s her birthday and certainly won`t remember if we celebrated it or not. The best present would be for the doctors to find out what is causing her blood pressure issues and find a reliable treatment.
I had a play with model aircraft years ago, I loved building them and setting up the radio control systems, trouble was I was useless at flying them (sad for an ex-air force man). I built lovely models and then destroyed them during their first flight, I`ll stick to diesel engines on the ground for now, unless we need to drop some on Dresden again! :laugh:
With respect to what to do with my engines, when I am gone, I have given my wife very strict instructions that they are be gifted to a very worthy cause: The Glort museum of Internal Fire, they are to be delivered by road unless you upset her at which point she has my permission to deliver them from 40,000 feet!
Please wish you lovely wife a Happy Birthday from Bob and Narelle.
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Sorry Guys, I forgot to upload the photos, so here they are.
Bob
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One of these days she is going to read your forum postings...........then you are going to be in the brown stuff.
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Hi Guys, sorry for not having posted much recently, between my health issues and those of my Wife rather a lot of time has been consumed by doctors, pathologists and etc.
I have, however managed to finish the crank case assembly and also the flywheel. Took me three days to get the crud off the flywheel, a leaking crank case seal had covered it in oil that then mixed with the Australian dust to form a quarter inch thick layer of tarmac! I have also managed to clean and reassemble the rocker assembly. Photos attached.
We now get to the difficult part which is finding spare parts for an engine made in the 1950`s. There are a lot of bits that cannot be reconditioned so replacements must be found. I have had contact with a couple of Southern Cross experts and sent them a spread sheet detailing the bits I am missing. I am not expecting to find everything I need and so will have to resort to manufacturing or machining them myself, I will let you know how the process goes.
Bob
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Looking good!
Cheers
Stef
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Hi Glort, sorry to let the side down. You will be pleased to hear that my Wife is having her last tests tomorrow. I am hoping that this will result in a definitive diagnosis and a permanent treatment regime that works. My own surgery has been knocked back by two weeks so I have a little more time to spend on engines before I become temporarily disabled again.
There has been some movement in the legal battle I have been having with the insurance company. I am hoping that I may finally get some compensation for my injuries and loss of income. Once that has been dealt with I am going to have to sell my home and move closer to the medical care that we both require, and away from this beautiful rural property that I can no longer maintain.
I have no idea of where to start looking for a new home, I couldn`t live in a city again so I have to find somewhere rural but close to a city. My Wife has ambitions to live in Tasmania but I am unsure about how we would cope with the cold winters having lived in the heat of northern New South Wales.
Where ever it is, I shall being setting up a full machine shop with the intention of doing as much old engine renovation as I can, before my time runs out. I am not thinking of this as a business just a hobby which might bring in a small income.
If your mate with the lathe doesn`t know how to use it please advise him to go to TAFE or even the local Men`s shed for tuition. Operating any machine tool without the necessary skills is a recipe for disaster, I have personally witnessed the results of these sorts of industrial accidents and they aren`t pretty.
One tool that I definitely want is a boring machine, something that could easily be used to re-bore and sleeve old cylinders. I will probably have to settle for an older universal milling machine, with more modern tooling. I would love to own a Bridgeport milling machine, due to their versatility, but I doubt they would make a good boring tool for larger cylinders.
A Colchester 1600 or 2000 lathe is also on my wish list along with a smaller tool makers lathe.
Anyways it`s all just a pipe dream at present.
Bob
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Hi Guys. looks like I need to make a miraculous recovery or nurse Glort is going to hunt me down! :laugh:
I didn`t get much done today buy I did go to visit my old mate Tom the tractor collector. Here are a couple of photos of what he does for fun.
Also a couple of pics of old stationary engines he is willing to part with.
Bob
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I also picked up a nice little piston pump which I will be fitting to the ETB when it is finished.
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Hi Glort, the Field Marshal tractor is an amazing beast, single cylinder horizontal diesel engine. It can be started with a hand crank alternatively it also has the facility for a cartridge start, just like early aviation engines. You drop the cartridge into a hole, screw down the cover and then strike the firing pin with a hammer, bang, and away she goes.
If your Dad still has some of those little piston pumps hanging around let me know. I`m pretty sure I`ll get them going, this one is all steel brass and cast iron and corroded solid, what could go wrong?
Not a Southern Cross, sadly, but it is a 4 HP petrol Cooper engine, nearly as desirable. It has the original cast iron base plate and a cooper/sunbeam 32 volt generator head. It is intact except for the magneto and fuel tank, it is also seized. Tom wants $340 for it, which is what he paid for it ten years back. I would love to own this myself but think that it would take a lot of time, money and enthusiasm to restore. I still have some enthusiasm but not much of the other two. I`ve dropped a couple more photos of it at the bottom of the page.
Bob
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Hi guys, In did get a bit done today, piston and con rod cleaned, balance weights cleaned, made new replacement tab washers for big end bearing caps and balance weights.
I have a dilemma, (please see photos) if you look at the big end bearing cap it has a locating pin to keep the white metal bearing in place. I have two sets of ETB78 new old stock white metal bearings, the locating holes are different on the two options I have available. One set of bearings lines up with the joint between the con rod and the cap while the other set is offset so the bearing joint is parallel with the piston skirt. I am thinking to go with the second option. Anyway what do you guys think?
Bob
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Sorry Gents posted the wrong picture you need this one to make a sensible choice.
Bob
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Looking at the photo of the 32v generator it looks identical to one i have but it has a Westate plate on it. I'm wondering who made these and stuck the appropriate tag on it for the various buyers
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Hi Bob
I think the correct set is that is offseted, and parallel with skirt, or as we see perpendicular to con rod. But this engine is only to showoff, not to loads, so it can take any set. IMMO.
Cheers
VP
PS: By the way, have you find a suitable injection pump an injector?
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> Anyway what do you guys think? Bob
Glad you asked ! I think you are awesome
> a bit done today, piston and con rod cleaned, balance weights cleaned,
> made new replacement tab washers for big end bearing caps and balance weights.
That would take me a month to figure it all out ....
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Thanks for the support Guys. I think I will go with Pedrosa and use the off set bearing so the joint is perpendicular to the crankshaft. If it causes any problems I still have the other set available and can swap it in about a half an hour.
The old piston is a little corroded but shows very little sign of wear or scoring, the piston crown is a very unusual design and has a small chip out of it. (see photo) I am going to take it down to my local sheet metal worker and ask him to fill the dent with his tig welder.
I have found a guy called Len who lives in Toowoomba, where this engine was originally made. He has most spares available including fuel pumps and injectors. I will probably have to make the fuel pipes myself. I am hoping he can provide me with new piston rings. Failing that I will have to go through the catalogs and try to find a suitable set from a lawnmower or motorbike.
Bob
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Hi Bob
If the engine will run on without repairing the piston I'd be inclined to leave it alone.
Whilst there's every chance the repair will hold, if it does detach it's self (incompatibility of metals, thermal shock and stuff like that) a chunk of metal flying around the upper cylinder is going to play the cat and banjo with the valves and bore.
'swot I fink, anyway......
Cheers
Stef
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Hi Guys. Thanks Stef I was thinking of leaving the piston as is and see how it goes. So you just saved me having to buy the local sheet metal worker a sh1t load of beer, guess I owe you a couple now! I do have access to a new piston if this one causes problems.
Hi Glort, there is no mention of the compression ratio in the manual, however there is an oil filler plunger into the intake manifold which raises the compression ratio on start up. so I am guessing at somewhere around 17 to 1.
The piston crown is pretty radical, as is the cylinder head (photos attached). This is very advanced engineering for an engine that was first made in the early 1950`s and must have been designed in the 1940`s. There are no locating pins or dowels in either the block, cylinder or cylinder head, so the only alignment between the piston up-stand and the hole in the cylinder head comes from the 5 cylinder head bolts. That might well explain the dent in the piston. I will try to upload the PDF manual so you can get the overall view.(I have had trouble sending PDF files before)
I also discovered why this engine was taken out of service, the exhaust port was coked completely solid. I suspect that the piston rings were worn and burning oil choked things up good and proper, I did wonder about the valve guides but they appear to have minimal wear. Perhaps they were burning crude oil or something similar.
Bob
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Hi Ajaffa1, I buy hard to find piston rings from this guy in Greece. He sells them by bore size and ring thickness, and I have had good service from him.
In his Ebay store click on "cylinders, pistons, mufflers" then click on" individual piston rings". You can choose based on your old rings, and if necessary repair a worn ring groove by purchasing a thicker ring, them widening your worn ring groove in a lathe to match the new ring.
He advertises rings from 19mm to 450mm. That's 3/4 inch to 18 inches. That's some range :o
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Piston-Ring-Set-for-BRIGGS-STRATTON-76-2-mm-3-000-499921-391669/170915005624?epid=1400654809&hash=item27cb5404b8:g:grcAAOSwjKFZOb5u&frcectupt=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Piston-Ring-Set-for-BRIGGS-STRATTON-76-2-mm-3-000-499921-391669/170915005624?epid=1400654809&hash=item27cb5404b8:g:grcAAOSwjKFZOb5u&frcectupt=true)
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Hi Bob
+1 to Stef, I'm with him.
And I think there is nothing fancy with that piston, because from what I have studied and researched, the ancients spent much time studying things in detail.
I think the geometry of that piston was studied for the way of expansion of the combustion at the moment of injection, so that the pressure in the cylinder head does not cause stress in the metals.
Bob, you're restoring an engine that was dead, the small gaps will be the only thing that will allow it to work. You just want it to work, not the maximum speed.
My Bernard has the intake valve with a brutal axial clearance, so I know I should not squeeze with it.
Good work, keep on.
Cheers
VP
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Hi Guys, thanks for the ebay site Willw, I have ordered a couple of oiler rings from him.
Today I had to go see the shrink again, about renewing my gun licence, guess what she is not prepared to certify me as sane and worthy of a gun licence until I have undergone all the surgery I have scheduled and I have settled my dispute with the insurance companies. This is likely to take 18 months or more, while my weapons stay in my gun cabinet, on my property with my having 24/7 access to them. The shrink bills the gubermint $250 a month for each assessment, so she has every reason to continue doing so for as long as possible. Had I been homicidal or suicidal the regulators would have been two and a half years too late. What a crock of Sh1t! >:(
The Australian law states that a policeman/woman must inspect my gun storage every year, I haven`t seen one for six years! Typical of gubermint to enact laws they they can`t afford to implement and enforce. I have for years, wondered what would happen if I found an intruder trying to steal my weapons. Since my license is suspended, legally I am not allowed to touch them, so I have to stand by and watch the criminal steal my weapons, which he could then use to kill me and my wife.
The alternative is that I break the law and use my weapons to persuade the perpetrator to foxtrot oscar, at which point he will phone the police to report the incident and I will be arrested and charged because the perps will be long gone and it will be far too expensive to track them down and I will be an easy conviction.
I suspect that the answer to all of this is to report a break in, weapons stolen and wave my hands in the air. Any later intruder will be given the option to FO, failing that there are hundreds of thousands of acres of state forest around here.
Anyway, my rant for the day is over so I should tell you all about how my engine restoration is going.
I have stripped and cleaned the cylinder head. I spent eight hours with files, chisels and etc cleaning out the baked on mud wasps nests, I then sank the entire assembly into a vat of caustic soda. I left it overnight to soften and I then connected it to the battery on my ride on lawnmower, while still submerged (electrolysis). It has come out very nicely and has been spray painted with a high temperature exhaust manifold paint. I will leave the paint to dry overnight and then it will go on the barbecue to bake in the morning.
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Hi Bob
Nothing like your engine to get you out of those gun ideas.
I liked that of the "foxtrot oscar".
But if some intruder escapes into the forest, it gets easier to catch him, you throw fire into the forest that he's going to come out. Lol, just kiding... Winter just gonne and we have already fires.
I'll selling my "irons" to buy parts for the Lister.
And now we also have the psychologist for the renewal of the license (I do not need it because I'm still in the active, but once retired it has to be, so I'll dispatch them sooner).
You did eletrolysis with caustic soda? That is dangerous. Why not with sodium carbonate?
Cheers
VP
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Hi Guys, what irritates me is that guns don`t kill people, it`s people that kill people, guns just make it easier. If I wanted to off myself or someone else it would be easy. I have a kitchen full of knives and a medicine cabinet full of legally acquired prescription drugs. In my shed I have enough tools to build a house including four chainsaws, log splitters, axes, dozens of razor sharp chisels and etc. Why do they believe that I am now such a hazard to myself and the community when the really dark days were 2 years ago, and I got through them unaided and without killing anyone! >:(
Anyway back to engines. The painted cylinder head component went on the BBQ this morning, the temperature was allowed to climb up to 500 Fahrenheit. They were then allowed to cool slowly. Once cool, the valves were lapped with a fine grinding paste.(please see photos)
There is no seat for the bottom of the valve springs to locate in so the designers included a brass ferule, which goes onto the valve guide. Please note that I fixed these in place with some gasket silicon which should provide an oil tight seal and stop things moving around, I will clean off the excess once it has hardened. (see photo)
Finally I fitted the springs and rocker assembly, there is a little adjustment in the rocker assembly to ensure that the rockers strike the valves cleanly, I will adjust this later once the head is fitted to the cylinder and the push rods are fitted. (see photo)
I have now started the awful job of striping down the small piston pump that I intend to couple to my engine. It is very badly seized up and I had to cut the main shaft into three pieces to dismantle it. It will be easy to turn a new shaft on the lathe, trying to press out the old bearings and pulley wheels would have broken the base casting which would be a bugger to repair. I`ll post some pics tomorrow.
VP, why did I do electrolysis in caustic soda? Because I am lazy and couldn`t be bothered with swapping out all the fluids, worked out OK.
Glort, if there is something that gives you peace of mind and clarity of thought please go and do it, regardless of the cost and aggravation involved.
Bob
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Hi Glort, if I were of the homicidal type I`d not be buggering about with chemicals or hydrogen. Liquid Petroleum Gas is just as effective, you don`t need a licence to buy it and its available in every town on earth. I`ll leave designing a delivery and ignition system to your imagination. (I am in no way advocating this sort of behavior, just pointing out the inadequacy of government thinking).
Back to engines and etc, I have stripped down the old piston pump. It is in a very sorry condition with all the moving parts worn beyond repair, fortunately the main brass castings are in very good condition, everything else I can reproduce.
The cast iron base has been cleaned, primed and had it`s first coat of Brunswick Green. In the morning I will start to build the trolley cart that it will sit on. Looking forward to a bit of carpentry for a change, it will be nice to fire up the planner and thicknesser after all this time.
14 days to surgery, got a lot to do before then! :laugh:
Bob
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Hey Glort, the original colour was green. Sadly there isn`t enough of it left to determine the actual shade of green, so I`m going with what I`ve got. It was made in Brisbane and has a patent number but no date. Strangely all the moving parts are metric sizes rather than imperial. I guess the founders were European rather than British or American.
While I`m here I would like you guys to take a look at this: http://www.usdebtclock.org/
This is probably the most frightening thing I have ever seen, average income per capita in the US $32,000. Debt per US taxpayer at $180,000. National debt rising so fast the graphics can`t display it! Might be time to hunker down, bad times are coming. There is no way the US government can keep a lid on this indefinitely and when it goes bad you can be sure it will go bad worldwide.
Bob
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Hi Bob
You can't trust does figures. As US president daily says, it's all fake news, so those numbers are also fake numbers.
Those clocks are simple to hypnotize people, and so they think it's there won blame.
Enjoy a beer while they tik on.
Cheers
VP
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Well guys I`m sure you all think I`ve been sitting on my arse doing nothing, I have however built a nice little display cart. All of this has been done with out spending any money, with the exception of the new wheels that cost eight dollars each.
The wearing surfaces at the front are made from an old chopping board, my Wife got a new one and I re-purposed the old one.The front pivot is and old wrist pin from my Lister ST2. I think this is going to turn out rather well, once it`s had another couple of coats of boiled linseed oil.
Bob
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A couple more pics to show where I am trying to go with this
Bob
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Thanks guys, I do appreciate the kind comments. I have been busy making an adapter plate, three studs below and four above to allow me to mount the ETB onto the Marino pump chassis. See photos.
I have now mounted the engine and fitted the fan shroud, along with the wind driven governor assembly. See photos.
I will be fitting the flywheel in the morning, once the paint has dried.
God it gives me the sh1ts when I go to the steel stockist and ask him for a piece of 25mm bright steel round bar, when I get home I find that the muppet has given me one inch bright mild steel round bar that won`t fit in the metric bearings I purchased.
I have two choices, turn it down to 25mm or do a 100km round trip to get a replacement! >:(
Bob
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Just a couple more photos to keep you happy.
Bob
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Thanks mate, the day of reckoning for my left hand is this Friday, hoping things will work out OK. I have a mate who I hope will be continuing the work once I am incapacitated. I will be supervising him! :laugh:
Bob
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Well guys the last day to be useful is tomorrow. So I had a good day today, turned up the new pump shaft and bushes. I don`t have access to a milling machine so I can`t cut the slots for woodruff keys, I do have a decent drill press so I chose to drill and fit shear pins as an alternative. I doubt this will cause any problems as this is only going to be a display piece and will never be put to any real work. I think I might use it to filter and dry waste vegetable oil when it is not on display, or even as part of the display. I have always liked the idea of a diesel engine that makes it`s own fuel, might be an interesting thing to demonstrate at an old engine rally.
Tomorrow I will have to have a bit of a clean up and touch up the paintwork. I`ll also put a couple of coats of clear varnish on any naked steel to prevent it rusting while I`m incapacitated. Anyway a couple of photos to keep you amused.
Bob
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Hi Guys, while I have been crook, I have had the opportunity to polish a lot of brass and bronze, one handed. Soul destroyingly slow and boring but marginally better than daytime TV. I also managed to bush the small end of the connecting rod and file enough material off the mating surfaces of the big end to bring the clearance down to 3 thou.
The original brass nut on the Marino reciprocating piston pump was beyond repair and all my efforts to source a replacement were unsuccessful. I went to visit one of my neighbors, Ken Inglis, who has the ability to cast aluminium from waste. He provided me with a suitably sized aluminium billet which I was able to turn into the nut shown in the photos below.
I also managed to turn up a new stainless steel piston and wrist pin. I cannot begin to explain how tedious it is trying to work a lathe with only one good hand but I am very happy with the results. Tomorrow I have to got into town to get some gland packing, with a bit of luck I should soon be able to post some pics of the assembled pump.
I still have to find the time and materials to make up new inlet and outlet valves and seals for this old pump but I am hoping that I will have it all done for the local rusty metal rally in August.
Bob
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Hey Buddy, glad to hear you like what I`ve been up to, difficult to explain the grief I have had from Narelle about doing too much to soon or getting my hand dirty.
Aluminium casting is something I have never tried, I might ask to watch Ken next time he is doing some. If you can`t find a suitable template have you thought of sculpting something out of candle wax?
I have recently been watching a couple of YouTube videos about sand casting and the current trend is to make your patterns using a 3D printer. Looks to produce very good results.
Bob
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Lovely stuff indeed Bob!!
Well done!!
Try sheets of polystyrene expanded foam to make the positive for sand casting.... Works reasonably well too...
(That's if you don't have a 3d thingy to play with...)
Cheers
Ed
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Thanks Ed, I like the idea of using polystyrene to form a template for sand casting. I wonder if spray foam or fixing foam would do the same thing.
I don`t have a 3D printer but would be interested in the technology when the price comes down a bit. I read your post about moving the milling machine, I was lucky enough to spend several years operating these wonderful tools and I am hoping to buy one in the near future.
Not much achieved today but I did manage to fit the new piston to the connecting rod and fit the new gland packing, very pleased with how it all looks. Still a little too much play in the big end so I guess I will have to get the file out again.
Bob
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Hi Bob,
It might indeed, but haven't tried it yet...This does present an idea... If you silicon rubber coat a master positive, then peel off carefully, use that silicon mold with spray foam to make multiple foam positives for casting....
Milling machines are the best thing since canned beer....except for my lathe of course...or beer....or rum and coke....or....
You need to build one of these things (see pic below) all the pulleys and wheels etc I cast in ali as blanks and machined them to size (beer cans for the small wheels, coffee tin for the drive wheel mold)... You will hardly touch a file after that...
Incidentally, I did exactly what you are doing a while back... The big end on a Honda 340 petrol if I remember...only thing I did differently was to squash it oval on the fly press while bolted together, then separate and sand the half shell a bit smaller and undersized, re-assemble, then bore to correct spec on the lathe using a face-plate... About 50c worth of raw material costs/electricity, 1hr of hobby time, and a more than happy friend who had his genset up and going again....
Every bit achieved is a step in the right direction!!
Cheers
Ed
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Hi Guys, now that the stitches in my hand have been removed I can do a bit more. so today I tackled the pressure bottle that is part of this old pump. It works by moderating the pulsing water pressure from the piston to produce a steady water pressure rather than a pulsing water pressure. The problem was that the base of the unit was flogged out, so I have filed out the worn parts and fitted a new center bush which was soldered in place with plumbers solder. Please see photos. The bottle was polished and sprayed with a varnish, hopefully it will look good and be functional for years to come.
Bob
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Further to my previous post I now have a question for the forum. This old pump has two brass valves with sealing washers, one for inlet and one for outlet. When I acquired this pump it was in bits and did not have any springs behind the valves. Does anyone know if this unit originally had spring loaded valves or was it all done with gravity and water pressure? Photos attached.
I have calculated the number of piston strokes per minute at between 150 and 200, so I suspect that this pump originally had some sort of stainless steel spring above each valve, very similar to the valve springs used in a pressure washer, the travel on each valve is around 1/4", if anyone has any knowledge on this please share it.
Bob
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Bob, any of those old pumps I have seen have a stainless or brass thin washer that follows the rubber or leather sealing washer and which supports a coil spring. Most I have seen have a tapered thin coil spring made from stainless wire
Traditionally you bought a "service kit" for them when they stopped working every few years
See pic?
Cheers
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Hi Mike, not much chance of getting a service kit for a pump that was made in the 1940`s. I guess I will have to adapt whatever I can find on fleabay. I`m also going to have to rework the original valves, I was thinking to replace the worn shafts with stainless steel.
Any idea what sort of pressure I should expect to get out of this contraption? It would originally have had a pressure gauge which I would like to replace.
Bob
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Y'know, most rural service towns have a pump shop with some old fart who knows all about these old units - there's still a place here that works on ones similar to your cos people continue to use them because they are positive displacement units. So if you can find a pump shop and just ask them about springs you might get lucky with a close match
That said, if you look at what's happening when the piston goes back and forth - there's pressure on one side and suction on the other, probably? If that's the case, the spring isn't withstanding pressure, it's just holding the rubber "valve" in place maybe?
See the springs in the pic? They're light - maybe anything like that you can find will do?
If it was in good shape maybe it would do six or eight bar? Maybe 100PSI or a bit better? Just a guess - no way of knowing really. Gauges are cheap anyway - put a cheap one on and look around for a good one once you understand the pressure range?
If you have a look on google for some pumps with a similar physical structure, find a pic with a name/ID plate visible, then google the "pump curve" - that will give you an idea
I will watch with interest. Cheers
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Hi mike, went to my local pump shop last week looking for gland packing. Asked the guy about springs and seals to fit old piston pumps, sadly the owner cleared out all his old stock recently. He only deals in centrifugal pumps now.
Bought myself some 40mm nylon round bar that I am going to Sikaflex to the face of the valves, I will then face them off in the lathe to give me a decent seal.
Bob
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Interesting
Somewhere there will be a stash of that old shit - and the know-how. In a small town I bet
Wouldn't surprise me if the seating "valves" want something softer than UMWHE type stuff? But I don't really know why I think that. My memory is of rubber valves around 40mm diameter with a full-width washer behind them - kinda like a penny washer - so ghey may have been designed to be both soft and rigid?
You'll figure it out
Cheers
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Hi Mike, I have one of the original washers, it`s past it`s useful life but appears to be a composite with two nylon faces with a softer fabric or rubber layer in between, presumably these were reversible. The original is around 3mm thick, my plan was to use 2mm of Sikaflex and 1mm of MDPE, hopefully the rubberized adhesive will provide enough of a cushion to stop any hammering. I guess I will just have to try it and see what happens.
Bob
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Bob,
Good to see you version of the cart, that's different having the front wheels inside the frame, I like the concept. I expect to take delivery of an ETB in the next week or so, it's coming over from Magnetic Island, where it was pumping water for domestic use. Do you have a photo of the completed project? I would love to see them as I intend to couple my ETB up to a IBC piston pump.
Dave
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Hi Cockie, sadly I do not have photos of the completed engine as I have had a devil of a job finding any engineering company willing to fit a sleeve to the cylinder. I now have three cylinders and a cylinder head, for various engines, awaiting machine work in Alstonville NSW. They will cost me around $2,000! I would have done the job myself if I could find a milling machine at a sensible price.
If you need any advice with your rebuild please contact me. I have a few contacts for parts and etc. Once you receive your engine you should register it with the southern cross registry, they will email you a whole lot of information and a service manual. It`s a free service. Good luck
Bob
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Thanks Bob, Ian the SC register guy, is a fellow member of North Queensland Machinery Preservationists, yes he has a lot of information, on anything Southern Cross.