Lister Engine Forum
Slow Speed Diesel Engines => Other Slow Speed Diesels => Topic started by: 38ac on January 13, 2019, 02:46:07 AM
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Awesome engine project, Butch. Can't wait to see more.
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Nice project, just had a quick look on youtube,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1fd_cIVJ6A
That should be it I guess.
Bernhard
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That's a job to envy, Butch!
Cheers
Stef
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Wow!
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Does it start (with gas fuel) on a flame to heat the hot bulb? I'd love to see the hot bulb details as you get there, Butch. Hot bulb has always intrigued me. Thanks for sharing your project photos!
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Amazing engineering. Is the hot bulb because it's too low compression to run on diesel otherwise, or is the compression changed after the fuel switchover and the hot bulb is just for transition?
Mark Cherry's smartplugs- smartplugs.com are essentially a platinum catalyst assisted hot bulb. He did also apply a bit of current to the platinum wire to advance ignition timing when/if needed.
It's interesting how old ICE tech gets recycled as new tech.
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Am I right in thinking that hot-bulb technology was in place before diesel cold-start compression/combustion chambers were properly understood?
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Hi Butch, I`m already enjoying this new rebuild and you have only just started. Please post stuff about the governor mechanism and fuel injection set up. Where are you finding spares for an engine this old? I guess you will have to make a lot of it yourself. Can`t wait to see the finished product.
Bob
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Spare parts are mostly non existent other than things like rings and magneto parts that are not specific to this engine. What ever is broken or worn requires a trip to the steel rack followed by a few hours working the machine tools.
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Thanks, 38ac. I suspected they were fixed low compression. No penalty for that at 300 rpm, plenty of time for fuel burn, and the hot bulb solves the ignition at low compression issue.
A most interesting and very challenging engine restoration project!
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The size and weight of these parts is amazing. Thanks for showing the hot bulb details.
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Fascinating, the weight of the components is frightening, this was built to last unlike most of the crap available today. I noticed that the big end bearing cap has castellated nuts, can the bearing clearance be adjusted with shims?
How in hell did they transport something this big back then? The logistics of trying to move this from the factory in Grantham UK to a port then load it on a ship to the USA, unload it and then transport it to it`s final destination terrify me. Imagine trying to unload this off a horse drawn cart with a block and tackle. It would be easy nowadays with mobile cranes and forklift trucks but back then? Wow!
Thank you so much for sharing this with us, please don`t give yourself a hernia.
Bob
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Bob ,
There is a surprisingly large amount of documentation about how they were moved about and assembled. My information tells me that this size engine is about the largest that was shipped in one piece unless it was sold local to the factory. With the empire being what it was back then large engines were hauled to and assembled some very remote and difficult installations. Luckily some of the men that performed the task were also fluent writers and also took photos. I dont have any links saved but will spend some time looking soon.
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Looks like you are making great progress, first smoke can`t be far off. I can see how the piston would be well lubricated with that drip feed system but what about the little end bearing (wrist pin), is that one of the areas that need to be manually lubricated? Might be very hazardous to do while the engine is running.
Bob
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Looking good, Butch, thanks very much for taking the time to post all the small details and the general information too.
The ingenuity of Victorian engineers was almost beyond belief, after all, they weer the ones who did everything first.
Check this out, the first of several 'knock down kit' boats on Lake Titicaca.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavari_(ship)
Cheers
Stef
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Thanks Butch, I can just about visualize how that lubrication system could work.
How did we get to this mechanical illiteracy in only one generation? When I was growing up, I learned from my Dad. When I was old enough to drive a car, I bought service manuals and learned everything I could about the vehicles I owned. I serviced them myself and discussed any issues with local mechanics in the local pub. Weekends were spent cleaning, polishing and servicing, what do young people do nowadays?
I will never understand how the western world, with all it`s skills and technological superiority, have allowed it`s people to be seduced by the cheap, throwaway crap from China and India. Thank god for people like yourself, who keep the flag flying for quality products and high engineering standards.
Bob
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Hi Stef, I was wondering about how they transported Butch`s engine from the UK to the USA. The idea of building an entire ship as a kit that could be hauled by donkeys and then reassembled is mind blowing. I guess that is the definition of an engineer, identify the problems and then find a way to overcome them. I take my hat off to them.
Bob
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Hold on there. Bob!
I suspect that there's still a lot of 'engineers' out there, someone has to make the machines that make the 'Chinese crap'!
Given a choice between working on a farm, in a foundry or down a coal mine, a career sat in a nice warm office with a keyboard and a mouse, working with technology you grew up with, don't seem too bad an option, add in the lack of mashed fingers - or worse - and then scrubbing the dirt off at the end of the shift..........
We only repaired those Mini's, Cortinta's, etc. and the rest of them 'cos we were skint, and they were somewhere near the forward edge of engineering, at the time.
In much the same way there's guys out there today that can change the battery on an IPhone 5 or whatever, on the kitchen table.
Think about the vast increase in reliability in small cars from the time of our youth. In 50 years time, when electronic equipment goes that far up the scale of dependability, there's bound to be another generation, on a forum like this, bemoaning the lack of mechanical skills in the young and their complete reliance on the domestic robot to change light bulbs and toilet rolls.
Butch making Whitworth nuts and you and Bruce buggering about with generators, mosfets and soldering irons, will be on the same plane as bodgers, blacksmiths, wheelwrights. and the other 'generalist' engineers. Glort, veg oil and solar panels won't be in it either.
Well, unless the apocalypses we suspect is coming, actually arrives, then I hope that bloke in the kitchen has downloaded this forums WOK onto his steam powered tablet!
Rant over, I'm off up the shed to change the exhaust on the Landy, before tomorrows snow storm sets in!
Cheers
Stef
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This grasshopper is truly impressed.
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38AC's projects are a joy to follow and learn from, and this one is a beauty! I didn't realize that hot bulb (surface ignition) was largely a Diesel patent infringement dodge. It kinda looks like a variation on indirect injection.
What a great project!
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Hi Bruce, a quick search on the internet tells me that Ruston Hornsby was formed by merging two companies, the Ruston side of things had been building oil engines eight years before Rudolf Diesel built his first production diesel engine.
Stef, loved the rant, almost as long winded as Glort. You could have just told me I`m a f*cking dinosaur and to get a grip! :laugh:
Glort, not looking for an apprentice just now, but I`ll keep you in mind. Suddenly I have a vision of the sorcerers apprentice with all those buckets of water! I need to take my tablets.
Butch, keep up the very impressive work.
Bob
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You're right, Bob. The Ruston Hornsby hot bulb oil engines did predate Rudolf Diesel's work. There's an interesting article on hot bulb engines on Wikipedia. They were very low compression if that article is to be believed- it says 3:1 to 5:1 compression for hot bulb engines. It mentions the spark ignition on gas started variation like 38ac's also.
Operational issues are mentioned- like the unavoidable timing advance due to heavy load countered by water drip into intake.
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Well done Butch, quality work as always. It amazes me that every part of that engine would have had to be machined in house, hundreds, possibly thousands of hours of machining by skilled men. No CNC machines back then, no tungsten carbide tooling either. If we tried to build a new one nowadays, using their technology, the wages alone would run into hundreds of thousands of dollars. That`s why these old relics from a bygone era are priceless and I thank you for saving them and sharing them with us.
Bob
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I did read of the patent slug fest between Stewart and Diesel whose later patent in 1898 did precede his working engine by several years. Diesel's fuel efficiency was more than double the hot tube ignition, which was limited to very low speeds due to pre-ignition and slow/irregular burn.
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Fabulous lack of corrosion in a 100+ yr old engine. Since it's hot bulb is this a low pressure injector just to meter fuel into the bulb?
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Bruce my hot bulb Petter engines run about 300PSI injection pressure. I am not sure on the Ruston? probably in that range. Some details about delivery coming when I get into the pump.
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I didn't grok the size of the head gasket until your last photo with your feet next to the gasket. It's HUGE. No wonder the head weighs 350 lbs!
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AND I have big feet too!😀
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Lovely rotary saw rig, that Peterson mill. You have a marvelous shop!
The scale of this engine is still hard for me to imagine.
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Butch, I hate you. What I would give for a supply of ash, oak or walnut. Australian hard woods are some of the best in the world but they are so hard that they can only be worked using tungsten tipped tooling. They play havoc with planners, thicknessers and chainsaws. They also weigh twice what European or American timber does.
I hate you even more for showing your Peterson mill with snow on the ground, Australia is in the grip of a heatwave with temperatures of forty centigrade or more. Lack of national power generating capacity has left us with rolling blackouts as the electricity companies try to balance the load from AC units.
That said, I love that engine and the work you are doing on it. What are you going to use it for? It`s such a work of art and deserves to be put to a good use. Can`t wait to see what you have planned.
Bob
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Material clamped down and using simple tools to make precise gaskets. Divider, scale and punch, those lines are not pencil marks but one, I have one leg of the divider sharpened like a knife.
Hi Butch
Have you ever think to attach a bistury to that leg insted of sharpened it? (I know keep it simple make it work is far quiker, but some air of the finest engineering add for shure value to the WOK)
I'm already scratching my self to see that machine "flinting".
Very nice work.
BR
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Butch, I did like you suggested and looked at the weather forecast for your zip code. Tuesday night gives minus 4 Fahrenheit rising to a maximum of three Fahrenheit on Wednesday, ouch. Hope you have plenty of warm clothing and heating fuel. Might be a good time to check the antifreeze in anything water cooled.
Stay safe,
Bob
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Wow, the size of that thing is frightening, how big is the crank handle? Love the skid, great work as usual.
Very sad to hear about the losses to frost damage, not a big problem where I live.
Bob
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Thanks Butch, please expand on the carburation method when the new technology allows, also please loose the axe it looks like you are cutting gaskets with it! :laugh:
Bob
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No worries about the brick hammer Bob ;) i just used it to tap the gasket punches 8)
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Wow Butch, I have never seen a system where they have the spark plug in the intake manifold with a valve on the wrong side of things. I wonder how many operators have lost hair, eyebrows etc to a back fire. Please be careful when you try to start this absurdity.
Bob
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Hi Butch
...It stills a state of art piece!
It really worth to see it bringed alive... lets cross fingers.
Cheers
VP
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Well done Butch, looks like you are making great progress. How are you going with the arctic weather predicted for you parts of the world?
I have a couple of questions: how is fuel delivered to the fuel reservoir? I am assuming that you would just fill the reservoir manually with about a quarter pint of gasoline, drop on the missing cover and start her up, this would heat the bulb allowing you to switch over to Diesel.
My second question is why there is a need to cool the fuel injector, does it get hot enough to vaporize the diesel? I have seen a lot of fuel injectors on air cooled diesels and never had a problem with fuel evaporating.
Love that Fuel pump, it has more in common with an oil pump than a fuel pump. Can`t believe the good condition of the plunger after more than a century, They certainly new how to make things that last back then. 500 PSI is quite low but I guess that with a large volume, slow speed engine like this, the fuel is vaporized by the heat rather than the injector spray pressure and pattern.
Keep warm,
Bob.
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Hi Butch, glad you are OK and didn`t get the worst of the cold weather. The worst I have ever experienced was minus 30 C, while skiing in France. At that temperature your eyeballs freeze over and you can`t see where you are going, you have to keep blinking to clear the frost, even with goggles on!
Stay safe,
Bob
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An amazing replica machining job from an antique parts manual picture. Wow!
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Once again, nice work, I envy you the chance to go against the more usual time = money and ugly, and function over form.
Cheers
Stef
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Nice work Butch, I spent years working a lathe and know how time consuming this sort of work is, especially if you are having to make your own tooling.
Do you have the original fuel line or are you going to have to make that as well? Will it have swagged/flared ends or soldered/brazed brass ferrules?
Bob
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Your productivity is humbling and inspiring, 38AC. Marvelous job, I'm sure oil operation is not far away now. How hard is it to start?
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Hi Butch, you are an inspiration to us all, I can not begin to tell you how much I want one of those! :)
Bob
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Good to see, great work, thanks for posting.
Cheers
Stef
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The quality and clarity of your instructional guides here have been invaluable to me, Butch. I think you are an outstanding technical teacher, and I'd guess that your son got a huge leg up in the world thanks to you.
I'd love to see an air start and switchover to oil on this beauty when weather permits. This machine is an amazing piece of IC engine history, and the flameless gas/spark start option that it has makes it unique.
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Hi Butch
You exceeded our expectations. Nor do we expect less. Congratulations.
BR
VP
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Hi Butch, and thank you again for your magnificent contribution to the LEF and my own understanding of all things mechanical.
Could you explain to me why you feel the need to drag you Ruston Hornsby outside to run it on diesel. Surely it would be easier to fit a suitable flexible exhaust system rather than carry 10 tons of iron out into the yard? Sorry to be pushey but I so wan`t to see it running on diesel.
Bob
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Hi Butch
Around here, no news, it's bad news!
How things are going?
Cheers
VP
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That's quite the project Butch.
Well done !
It's also a chick magnet. When you display it at the county fair, all the female attention will go to you.
You know that right ! ;)
Veggie
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