Lister Engine Forum

Slow Speed Diesel Engines => Other Slow Speed Diesels => Topic started by: 38ac on January 13, 2019, 02:46:07 AM

Title: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 13, 2019, 02:46:07 AM
Still trying to get the new tablet figured out.
Another shop project, Ruston Hornsby class M size 4  hot bulb engine. 17HP.  This one starts and runs on gasoline until the hot bulb is warmed up then you switch it over to fuel oil and kill the magneto.  To give size to it that is an 8 inch bore and 16 inch stroke. I cannot lift the piston and rod  by myself. This engine was sold new in Winnepeg and powered a prairie grain elevator.  This is one of my personal  treasures.

(http://i64.tinypic.com/2cnzj34.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: BruceM on January 13, 2019, 02:58:06 AM
Awesome engine project, Butch.  Can't wait to see more. 
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 15, 2019, 12:19:37 PM
Hopefully the picture sizing is now fixed.  Working on the Ruston. Everything is large and heavy. Piston and rod installed. Took all day to fit the bearing as some "mechanic" had beat the snot out of the rod cap for reasons I will never know.  The 3/4 drive ratchet and my gloves give some scale to the size of things. That is a 4" crank pin

(http://i65.tinypic.com/309jzhs.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: saba on January 15, 2019, 12:26:10 PM
Nice project, just had a quick look on youtube,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1fd_cIVJ6A

That should be it I guess.

Bernhard
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: dieselspanner on January 16, 2019, 07:55:18 AM
That's a job to envy, Butch!

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: LowGear on January 16, 2019, 11:02:54 PM
Wow!
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: BruceM on January 17, 2019, 12:44:38 AM
Does it start (with gas fuel) on a flame to heat the hot bulb?  I'd love to see the hot bulb details as you get there, Butch.  Hot bulb has always intrigued me. Thanks for sharing your project photos!
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 17, 2019, 02:56:16 AM
No Bruce it actually starts just like a gasoline engine spark ignition via  magneto. This heats the hot bulb and when warmed up you turn on the fuel oil injection and kill the magneto as it is  not needed.The carburetor is a piece of engineering, I will post some pictures later. I was told that the flameless heating of the hot bulb was required due to the I installation in a grain elevator.
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: BruceM on January 17, 2019, 05:31:51 AM
Amazing engineering.  Is the hot bulb because it's too low compression to run on diesel otherwise, or is the compression changed after the fuel switchover and the hot bulb is just for transition?

Mark Cherry's smartplugs- smartplugs.com are essentially a platinum catalyst assisted hot bulb. He did also apply a bit of current to the platinum wire to advance ignition timing when/if needed. 

It's interesting how old ICE tech gets recycled as new tech.
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: mikenash on January 17, 2019, 05:48:32 AM
Am I right in thinking that hot-bulb technology was in place before diesel cold-start compression/combustion chambers were properly understood?
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 17, 2019, 09:33:37 AM
Hi Butch, I`m already enjoying this new rebuild and you have only just started. Please post stuff about the governor mechanism and fuel injection set up. Where are you finding spares for an engine this old? I guess you will have to make a lot of it yourself. Can`t wait to see the finished product.

Bob
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 17, 2019, 11:30:33 AM
Hot bulb engines are very low compression and use what is called surface ignition. The fuel is injected into the hot bulb as the piston is coming up on compression but does not ignite until the the chamber pressure reaches a given point. Diesel's patents covered ignition at the time of fuel injection and the process cleverly circumvented his patents and royalties payable to him. When the patent rights expired so did not bulb ignition for the most part.
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 17, 2019, 11:34:41 AM
Spare parts are mostly non existent other than things like rings and magneto parts that are not specific to this engine. What ever is broken or worn requires a trip to the steel rack followed by a few hours working the machine tools.
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: BruceM on January 17, 2019, 05:22:25 PM
Thanks, 38ac.  I suspected they were fixed low compression.  No penalty for that at 300 rpm, plenty of time for fuel burn, and the hot bulb solves the ignition at low compression issue.

A most interesting and very challenging engine restoration project! 
 
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 18, 2019, 01:32:18 PM
A few more pictures of the Ruston innards.
The piston side of 350 lbs of cylinder head. The hole leads to the hot bulb
(http://i63.tinypic.com/2hd6vcx.jpg)

And the hot bulb side
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2dc8k7b.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 18, 2019, 01:38:32 PM
Here is the hot bulb fuel is injected here where it steams and then is ignited by compression
(http://i64.tinypic.com/amcxf9.jpg)

The outside of the hot bulb , the fuel injector mounts to the flange closest to you and the starting carburetor mounts to the angled flange.


(http://i68.tinypic.com/k48r9.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 18, 2019, 01:50:55 PM
The starting carburetor, lots going on with it besides mixing gasoline and air.  At the bottom there is a handle that operates a valve that either isolates the carburetor from the hot bulb or connects it. Above it is the mixture valve and above that is the reservoir  for gasoline. The spring to the right is on the valve stem for the atmospheric intake valve. Not seen in this view but between the mounting  flange and spring is the spark plug hole. I will expond on this later  if there is interest  as it is easier understood when mounted.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/20958cw.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: BruceM on January 18, 2019, 03:34:39 PM
The size and weight of these parts is amazing.  Thanks for showing the hot bulb details.
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 18, 2019, 06:26:34 PM
Previous owner lost most of the hardware. Making up some heavy pattern whitworth nuts.
Starting out with hex bar saves a bunch of work
(http://i65.tinypic.com/nweyhz.jpg)

The OEM nuts appear to have been made by apprentices so I tried to duplicate them.


(http://i63.tinypic.com/kammup.jpg)

They are the mounting nuts for the magneto bracket,  cant be seen but I know they are there and correct ;) the lever on the bracket shifts the collar back on the shaft so it misses the lever on the mag when not needed.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2zsa2br.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 18, 2019, 09:17:43 PM
Fascinating, the weight of the components is frightening, this was built to last unlike most of the crap available today. I noticed that the big end bearing cap has castellated nuts, can the bearing clearance be adjusted with shims?

How in hell did they transport something this big back then? The logistics of trying to move this from the factory in Grantham UK to a port then load it on a ship to the USA, unload it and then transport it to it`s final destination terrify me. Imagine trying to unload this off a horse drawn cart with a block and tackle. It would be easy nowadays with mobile cranes and forklift trucks but back then? Wow!

Thank you so much for sharing this with us, please don`t give yourself a hernia.

Bob
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 19, 2019, 12:45:31 PM
Bob ,
There is a surprisingly large  amount of documentation about how they were moved about and assembled. My information tells me that  this size engine is about the largest that was shipped in one piece unless it was sold local to the factory.  With the empire  being what it was back then large engines were hauled to and assembled some very remote and difficult installations. Luckily some of the men that performed the task were also fluent  writers and also took photos.  I dont have any links saved but will spend some time looking soon.
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 19, 2019, 06:52:45 PM
Some easy work today,  cleaned up and mounted the oilers. One for the big end lubrication one for the piston. The mains  each have their own oil sump and other points are manually attended to.  Manual says 9 drops per minute for the big end, 6 for the piston another lesson for those who think that things must be submerged in oil to be lubricated.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/am8ebm.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 19, 2019, 09:20:38 PM
Looks like you are making great progress, first smoke can`t be far off. I can see how the piston would be well lubricated with that drip feed system but what about the little end bearing (wrist pin), is that one of the areas that need to be manually lubricated? Might be very hazardous to do while the engine is running.

Bob
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 19, 2019, 10:41:14 PM
There is a rather elaborate system of channels on the top of the piston that gather oil and send it to the wrist pin bushings. Most of the manual oiling points are far enough away from harms way. Remeber it was built prior to the age of general mechanical stupidity and the always somebody elses  fault movement.
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: dieselspanner on January 20, 2019, 07:40:45 AM
Looking good, Butch, thanks very much for taking the time to post all the small details and the general information too.

The ingenuity of Victorian engineers was almost beyond belief, after all, they weer the ones who did everything first.

Check this out, the first of several 'knock down kit' boats on Lake Titicaca.....

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavari_(ship)

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 20, 2019, 08:02:55 AM
Thanks Butch, I can just about visualize how that lubrication system could work.

How did we get to this mechanical illiteracy in only one generation? When I was growing up, I learned from my Dad. When I was old enough to drive a car, I bought service manuals and learned everything I could about the vehicles I owned. I serviced them myself and discussed any issues with local mechanics in the local pub. Weekends were spent cleaning, polishing and servicing, what do young people do nowadays?

I will never understand how the western world, with all it`s skills and technological superiority, have allowed it`s people to be seduced by the cheap, throwaway crap from China and India. Thank god for people like yourself, who keep the flag flying for quality products and high engineering standards.

Bob

 
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 20, 2019, 08:14:35 AM
Hi Stef, I was wondering about how they transported Butch`s engine from the UK to the USA. The idea of building an entire ship as a kit that could be hauled by donkeys and then reassembled is mind blowing. I guess that is the definition of an engineer, identify the problems and then find a way to overcome them. I take my hat off to them.

Bob
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: dieselspanner on January 20, 2019, 09:30:54 AM
Hold on there. Bob!

I suspect that there's still a lot of 'engineers' out there, someone has to make the machines that make the 'Chinese crap'!

Given a choice between working on a farm, in a foundry or down a coal mine, a career sat in a nice warm office with a keyboard and a mouse, working with technology you grew up with, don't seem too bad an option, add in the lack of mashed fingers - or worse - and then scrubbing the dirt off at the end of the shift..........

We only repaired those Mini's, Cortinta's, etc. and the rest of them 'cos we were skint, and they were somewhere near the forward edge of engineering, at the time.

In much the same way there's guys out there today that can change the battery on an IPhone 5 or whatever, on the kitchen table.

Think about the vast increase in reliability in small cars from the time of our youth. In 50 years time, when electronic equipment goes that far up the scale of dependability, there's bound to be another generation, on a forum like this, bemoaning the lack of mechanical skills in the young and their complete reliance on the domestic robot to change light bulbs and toilet rolls.

Butch making Whitworth nuts and you and Bruce buggering about with generators, mosfets and soldering irons, will be on the same plane as bodgers, blacksmiths, wheelwrights. and the other 'generalist' engineers. Glort, veg oil and solar panels won't be in it either.

Well, unless the apocalypses we suspect is coming, actually arrives, then I hope that bloke in the kitchen has downloaded this forums WOK onto his steam powered tablet! 

Rant over, I'm off up the shed to change the exhaust on the Landy, before tomorrows snow storm sets in!

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: glort on January 20, 2019, 11:45:26 AM


Thank god for people like yourself, who keep the flag flying for quality products and high engineering standards.


Here here!

I frequently feel embarrassed at how little I know about things especially in the company of the caliber of people here.
The thing is, many of my friends and people I know think of me as some genius Mr. fixit.

As Bob says, the ability of people to be self sufficient has gone out the window.
There are many angles to that.  When looking for houses 18 months back, to find one with a shed garage that you could put the car in and anything more than a lawn mower and a folding picnic chair was far and few between.  There just isn't room for any tools in most newer, 20 years  or less places.

The other thing is the professional status of people.  Brother in law round the corner is entirely useless with anything DIY.  He tells me all the time, his greatest and all purpose tool is his chequebook.  As he says, he earns more an hour than the people he pays so it's not economical for him to do it.  I have found a few things like that myself lately and I'm certainly not pulling down what he does. Sometimes by the time you pay the costs you have to yourself you can pay a bit more and get some monkey to do it for you or cheaper as i have found on occasion.

Yesterday I amazed some friends that came over for a BBQ.  One of the old ceiling fans on the back verandah had carked it so we went and bought some new ones and replaced them.... all by myself.... and didn't call a tradie.... or die in the process.
Yep, undid 2 bolt head screws, undid 3 wires, put up a new bracket with the screws, sat the assembly on after I attached the blades, reconnected the wires, Changed the wall plate.... Miracle!
First thing one mate said when Mrs mentioned we bought them that morning and they looked good was where did we find an electrician to come on a weekend???  Say what???   :o

I don't feel smart or clever, I feel embarrassed I can't do a lot more but mostly I feel a bit sad and worried that other people are so much more useless than I am. I have never known any "father Figure" who c ouldn't do this stuff for themselves.
Dad was always repairing cars when I was a kid for extra money and what little he couldn't do around the house someone in the family or a friend could. Grandad had a thing against trades people and likewise my father in law had never come across a problem he couldn't fix including Moving his own house back on the block and completely renovating it.

So many other people however are hard pressed doing much past changing a light bulb and if you look that up on the net there will be endless saftey sissys telling you it's a job fr professionals but if you are going to attempt it yourself, make sure you are wearing PPE and have someone watching you at a safe distance with teh paramedics on speed dial just in case the only possible scenario of such wreck less behavior happens and you electrocute yourself.

There are still some young people getting their hands Dirty thankfully and as I always used to tell my son, the tradies are going to be the future wealthy because everyone else regardless if they earn $10M a year down will not be able to do without them and there will always be a shortage of practical hand's on people.

Sorry for the diversion, just brought back a lot of thoughts and memories after spending the day (again) planning out renovations here and what i'm going to have to do.

I wish there were people I could learn from to do things like this. If I ever came across anyone they would have an unpaid apprentice for the rest of their lives... or a week till they told me to piss off and stop asking so many goddam questions.  :embarassed:



Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: LowGear on January 20, 2019, 01:04:05 PM
This grasshopper is truly impressed.
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: BruceM on January 20, 2019, 05:04:36 PM
38AC's projects are a joy to follow and learn from, and this one is a beauty!  I didn't realize that hot bulb (surface ignition) was largely a Diesel patent infringement dodge.  It kinda looks like a variation on indirect injection. 
 
What a great project!




 
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 20, 2019, 10:54:00 PM
Hi Bruce, a quick search on the internet tells me that Ruston Hornsby  was formed by merging two companies, the Ruston side of things had been building oil engines eight years before Rudolf Diesel built his first production diesel engine.

Stef, loved the rant, almost as long winded as Glort. You could have just told me I`m a f*cking dinosaur and to get a grip!  :laugh:

Glort, not looking for an apprentice just now, but I`ll keep you in mind. Suddenly I have a vision of the sorcerers apprentice with all those buckets of water! I need to take my tablets.

Butch, keep up the very impressive work.

Bob
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: BruceM on January 21, 2019, 12:53:24 AM
You're right, Bob.  The Ruston Hornsby hot bulb oil engines did predate Rudolf Diesel's work.  There's an interesting article on hot bulb engines on Wikipedia.  They were very low compression if that article is to be believed- it says 3:1 to 5:1 compression for hot bulb engines.  It mentions the spark ignition on gas started variation like 38ac's also.

Operational issues are mentioned- like the unavoidable timing advance due to heavy load countered by water drip into intake.
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 21, 2019, 01:09:32 AM
I believe that Diesel had the patents for some time before he had a working engine. I am actually not a student of the history. I enjoy the mechanics and information kinda finds it's way to me. I do know that Diesel spent considerable amount of effort protecting his invention and actively pursued anyone who was even close to infringement including hotbulb,, so I was told.

As for the current crop of mechanical rum dummies it creates good opportunity
My sons grew up at my elbows in the shop and I told them if they wanted to be financially secure with never ending work to stay in the heavy mechanical field.  Both of them now have six figure income and  can go to work just about anywhere they wish. Heck I am trying  to retire and have people begging me to go to work at my old age. Getting dirty doesn't get a person into higher social circles  but if a person doesn't give a rat's  ass about that  then he can do well for himself,, at least  here in the states.

More Whitworth fasteners,  studs for the governor housing.
First operation thread and parting
(http://i65.tinypic.com/j9acyv.jpg)

Second operation


(http://i63.tinypic.com/i3ggsz.jpg)

Making such parts is tedious work for me but the results are gratifying.  Could have just used capscrews but it is now as it was made with studs and heavy pattern nuts. This is the governor box where both timing and amount of fuel is controlled.

(http://i67.tinypic.com/2namj43.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 21, 2019, 10:27:20 PM
Well done Butch, quality work as always. It amazes me that every part of that engine would have had to be machined in house, hundreds, possibly thousands of hours of machining by skilled men. No CNC machines back then, no tungsten carbide tooling either. If we tried to build a new one nowadays, using their technology, the wages alone would run into hundreds of thousands of dollars. That`s why these old relics from a bygone era are priceless and I thank you for saving them and sharing them with us.

Bob
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: BruceM on January 21, 2019, 11:31:38 PM
I did read of the patent slug fest between Stewart and Diesel whose later patent in 1898 did precede his working engine by several years. Diesel's fuel efficiency was more than double the hot tube ignition, which was limited to very low speeds due to pre-ignition and slow/irregular burn.

Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 23, 2019, 12:30:13 AM
I selected this engine because the important parts had been reasonably well stored. None the less I was worried about the injector as parts are custom  made only and far beyond  my abilities and machinery.  Took it apart today and to my great surprise and pleasure it looks like it ran yesterday,  in spite of the fact it has been sitting for over 30 years.  A testament  to the quality of the fuel they were burning for sure.


The injector innards, ,,, jewelry

(http://i63.tinypic.com/mrpjih.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: BruceM on January 23, 2019, 12:41:35 AM
Fabulous lack of corrosion in a 100+ yr old engine.  Since it's hot bulb is this a low pressure injector just to meter fuel into the bulb? 
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 23, 2019, 12:42:21 AM
Making head gaskets the  easy way.

Whoever decided it was OK to roll gasket material up in tight rolls ought to be hung!
Material clamped down and using simple tools to make precise gaskets. Divider,  scale and punch, those lines are not pencil marks but one, I have one leg of the divider sharpened like a knife.

(http://i67.tinypic.com/23upoib.jpg)

Laying out the bolt hole circle, 10 holes so first two are easy 180 apart,getting the other 8 was challenging as a good bit of my geometry schooling has left me.

(http://i68.tinypic.com/nn1l74.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 23, 2019, 12:53:37 AM
I center punched the table under at the pivot point for the diver so I wouldn't  lose center after the center waste  was removed. Here cutting the innner gasket using the sharpened leg of the divider. Material is 1/16" thickness.

(http://i68.tinypic.com/a44y0w.jpg)

And punching the stud holes

(http://i66.tinypic.com/2rpv3bb.jpg)

The result is nicely fitted gaskets using ordinary tools.

(http://i67.tinypic.com/sdoj8l.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 23, 2019, 12:59:38 AM
Bruce my hot bulb Petter engines run about 300PSI injection pressure. I am not sure on the Ruston? probably in that range. Some details about delivery coming when I get into the pump.
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: BruceM on January 23, 2019, 01:13:30 AM
I didn't grok the size of the head gasket until your last photo with your feet next to the gasket.  It's HUGE.  No wonder the head weighs 350 lbs! 
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 23, 2019, 01:27:05 AM
AND I have big feet too!😀
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: glort on January 23, 2019, 02:18:32 AM

I also didn't realise the size of things till that last scaled pic.
That sure is a lot of engine for 10 hp!

You could upgrade the pressure of the IP with a common car power steer pump. I belive they do 1000  PSi plus.
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 25, 2019, 01:07:45 AM
There are some fragile and irreplaceable pieces that hang down below the engine base so next order of business is to get the engine off the shop cart and on a suitable  base.
Some Ash from the farm on the Peterson swing mill
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2zh0apd.jpg)
Enough to make a nice skid and and lots left over
(http://i66.tinypic.com/o01cwo.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 25, 2019, 01:22:57 AM
Must have been a tax on cam lobes back in the day, only reason  I can think of that Ruston would have  gone to all this trouble just so they could get by with one lobe?..😀
Details of the valve operating mechanism.  Intake on top, exhaust on the bottom.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/2wdyozs.jpg)

Close up of the cam. The pin beside the roller is how you switch to half compression for starting. You pull the pin, move the roller out for full compression or in for half and reinsert it,, while running. The half compression bump is visable at the rear of the lobe.

(http://i67.tinypic.com/wqpyzd.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: BruceM on January 25, 2019, 01:29:18 AM
Lovely rotary saw rig, that Peterson mill. You have a marvelous shop!
The scale of this engine is still hard for me to imagine. 
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 25, 2019, 10:08:31 PM
Butch, I hate you. What I would give for a supply of ash, oak or walnut. Australian hard woods are some of the best in the world but they are so hard that they can only be worked using tungsten tipped tooling. They play havoc with planners, thicknessers and chainsaws. They also weigh twice what European or American timber does.

I hate you even more for showing your Peterson mill with snow on the ground, Australia is in the grip of a heatwave with temperatures of forty centigrade or more. Lack of national power generating capacity has left us with rolling blackouts as the electricity companies try to balance the load from AC units.

That said, I love that engine and the work you are doing on it. What are you going to use it for? It`s such a work of art and deserves to be put to a good use. Can`t wait to see what you have planned.

Bob
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: sirpedrosa on January 25, 2019, 11:39:24 PM
Material clamped down and using simple tools to make precise gaskets. Divider,  scale and punch, those lines are not pencil marks but one, I have one leg of the divider sharpened like a knife.

Hi Butch
Have you ever think to attach a bistury to that leg insted of sharpened it? (I know keep it simple make it work is far quiker, but some air of the finest engineering add for shure value to the WOK)

I'm already scratching my self to see that machine "flinting".
Very nice work.

BR
VP
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 26, 2019, 12:45:22 PM
Bob, Peterson sells a good many mills in your world because the blades are  indeed carbide inserted and they are almost local in New Zealand. Mine is the baby size, read "Affordable"   I have a good  supply of lumber and enjoy running it as much as using the lumber.

Send some of that heat my way!! Look up our next 7 day forecast for 43019,, :-[ :-[

There is no planned usage for this engine and it's too big to haul around to shows. Plans are to build an old style power house to house it and a couple other of my larger engines and run them whenever the mood strikes me.
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 26, 2019, 01:25:20 PM
There is a kit of divider tools made just for such work but I don't have enough use for them to spend the money. The dividers came from Harbor Freight (China tool outlet) for pocket change and work well enough. The carbide  hole punch also came from there. As a rule I deplore  cheap tools but in a few cases they work well enough for limited use.
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 26, 2019, 11:07:08 PM
Butch, I did like you suggested and looked at the weather forecast for your zip code. Tuesday night gives minus 4 Fahrenheit rising to a maximum of three Fahrenheit on Wednesday, ouch. Hope you have plenty of warm clothing and heating fuel. Might be a good time to check the antifreeze in anything water cooled.
Stay safe,

Bob 
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 28, 2019, 11:35:15 AM
Bob, we take a day to check and drain  everything in the fall. Sadley the hobby is loosing old engines every year to frosting. Mainly when collectors pass on and the estate doesn't take care of things.

The skid is complete and in position to install
(http://i63.tinypic.com/2i7bwhv.jpg)

And under the engine after  a few hours with jacks and cribbing.  This photo helps give scale to it with my old IROC in the background

(http://i66.tinypic.com/2zzqjj8.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 28, 2019, 08:56:34 PM
Wow, the size of that thing is frightening, how big is the crank handle?  Love the skid, great work as usual.
Very sad to hear about the losses to frost damage, not a big problem where I live.

Bob
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 29, 2019, 12:12:10 PM
No crank handle for this one, it is air  start,  more on that later. I do have  a 31HP Blackstone tbat is crank start.

The starting carburetor,  and interesting piece of work. This is the top half showing the fuel reservoir,  the mixture needle at the rear. The brass screen covers the air inlet.  The spring holds the atmospheric inlet valve against the seat. Not visible is the fuel fuel channel that terminates in the middle of the valve seat much like a natural gas engine. All the the air for starting must go through a 1/4" drilled channel in this section of the carburetor.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2dt8zyp.jpg)

All for  now as my photo host has decided to reject all attemps at uploads, grrr
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 29, 2019, 12:22:55 PM
Thanks Butch, please expand on the carburation method when the new technology allows, also please loose the axe it looks like you are cutting gaskets with it!  :laugh:

Bob
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 29, 2019, 12:33:12 PM
Ok photos working once more. The bottom part of the carburetor showing the valve that isolates it from the hot bulb after starting and the spark plug, pretty odd eh?
(http://i68.tinypic.com/b3vnsj.jpg)
I bought an entire case of these old AC plugs on Ebay for cheap because they are for some odd ball application.  They are the right length and screw in the hole.  I highly doubt that the engine will know it has a non spec heat range and I know that I dont care either :D
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2a9b5hg.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 29, 2019, 12:42:37 PM
No worries about the brick hammer Bob ;) i just used it to tap the gasket punches 8)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 29, 2019, 12:50:03 PM
Its hard to realize whats going on when things are in pieces.  This should help.
Think of it as an entire separate intake system, not just a carburetor.
Here it is mounted on the hot bulb. I have to machine a cap for the fuel reservoir as the original was lost. Also shown is the fuel injector and the injector cooling lines reinstalled.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/mh3e5j.jpg)

Another view sorry for the busy backgrounds,  I am no photographer actually

(http://i66.tinypic.com/nejjad.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 29, 2019, 01:00:35 PM
Wow Butch, I have never seen a system where they have the spark plug in the intake manifold with a valve on the wrong side of things. I wonder how many operators have lost hair, eyebrows etc to a back fire. Please be careful when you try to start this absurdity.

Bob
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on January 31, 2019, 12:45:54 PM
The fuel pump for a hot bulb engine is similar to the jerk pumps used on diesels in that it uses a close tolorance piston. It differs in how the delivery is regulated and that the pump stroke is very short. On the 4M it is .035" maximum.  It hangs below the engine where it is easily damaged  or destroyed and there are none available anywhere. That is why the engine skid  was  installled before the fuel pump. The system operates under 500psi To give scale to it the plunger is about 3/4"

(http://i66.tinypic.com/2j5j2w1.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: sirpedrosa on January 31, 2019, 01:22:25 PM
Hi Butch

...It stills a state of art piece!

It really worth to see it bringed alive... lets cross fingers.

Cheers
VP
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 31, 2019, 11:27:41 PM
Well done Butch, looks like you are making great progress. How are you going with the arctic weather predicted for you parts of the world?

I have a couple of questions: how is fuel delivered to the fuel reservoir? I am assuming that you would just fill the reservoir manually with about a quarter pint of gasoline, drop on the missing cover and start her up, this would heat the bulb allowing you to switch over to Diesel.

My second question is why there is a need to cool the fuel injector, does it get hot enough to vaporize the diesel? I have seen a lot of fuel injectors on air cooled diesels and never had a problem with fuel evaporating.

Love that Fuel pump, it has more in common with an oil pump than a fuel pump. Can`t believe the good condition of the plunger after more than a century, They certainly new how to make things that last back then. 500 PSI is quite low but I guess that with a large volume, slow speed engine like this, the fuel is vaporized by the heat rather than the injector spray pressure and pattern.

Keep warm,
Bob.
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on February 01, 2019, 11:56:27 AM
We weatherd the coldest just fine, low here was -7 with strong winds. Just to our west -39 was reported with same winds. BRRRRRRRRR!!!

Yes the starting reservoir is filled manually
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on February 02, 2019, 08:42:11 AM
Hi Butch, glad you are OK and didn`t get the worst of the cold weather. The worst I have ever experienced was minus 30 C, while skiing in France. At that temperature your eyeballs freeze over and you can`t see where you are going, you have to keep blinking to clear the frost, even with goggles on!

Stay safe,
Bob
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on February 08, 2019, 11:51:34 AM
Yesterdays project was fabricating a high pressure line safety filter that was missing from my engine. This was not designed to be the only fuel filter, just a safety net for any trash that might plug the nozzle.  I didn't  have a print, just the drawing in the parts book thus its close but not an exact reproduction.  The seating angles are 25 degrees, oddball. The male parts were easy enough duplicated on the lathe but I had to make tooling to ream the female sockets. All made from bar stock there is about 8 hours of machine time here, good thing it isnt a money making deal!! The screen is a sprayer part from the local farm store.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/111tff9.jpg)

(http://i64.tinypic.com/34t9vf4.jpg)

And installed in the injector housing

(http://i63.tinypic.com/msysjs.jpg)
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: BruceM on February 09, 2019, 12:03:59 AM
An amazing replica machining job from an antique parts manual picture.  Wow!
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: dieselspanner on February 09, 2019, 06:44:28 AM
Once again, nice work, I envy you the chance to go against the more usual time = money and ugly, and function over form.

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on February 09, 2019, 10:29:07 PM
Nice work Butch, I spent years working a lathe and know how time consuming this sort of work is, especially if you are having to make your own tooling.

Do you have the original fuel line or are you going to have to make that as well? Will it have swagged/flared ends or  soldered/brazed brass ferrules?

Bob
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on February 19, 2019, 11:22:39 PM
Here is a link to the engine running on the starting and warm up mode on gasoline
https://youtu.be/e-wzubj9zUw
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: BruceM on February 20, 2019, 12:00:50 AM
Your productivity is humbling and inspiring, 38AC.  Marvelous job, I'm sure oil operation is not far away now. How hard is it to start? 
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on February 20, 2019, 02:31:03 AM
Hi Butch, you are an inspiration to us all, I can not begin to tell you how much I want one of those!  :)

Bob
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: dieselspanner on February 20, 2019, 07:11:45 AM
Good to see, great work, thanks for posting.

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on February 20, 2019, 11:17:47 AM
 Thank you, productivity in the shop recieved large boost when I retired but this was a relatively easy project. Mostly requiring assembly. Missing bits slowed it down as they were made up.  Starting is effortless when using the air start. Place the piston just past TDC and push the valve and it spins over usually hitting the second time over.  Going to put this one away until it is fit to play with it outside and am VERY excited to be starting on another neat old generating set in a few days,,, going to start a thread but until then I am going to leave you to wonder what??? LOL.
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: glort on February 20, 2019, 11:40:19 AM

Before you mothball this one, would be good to see a vid of it starting from cold and then changing over to oil or diesel or whatever it runs.

None of it looked easy to me. I think you sell your skills well short.  If you were nearby I would come work with you every day I could to learn some of the vast knowledge of these machines you have.

Maybe you could consider writing a book or at least a more detailed website where you could pass on some of your very valueable knowledge of these machines as you work with them?
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on February 20, 2019, 03:54:29 PM
Limitations in the shop prevent running it on diesel for more than a few hits. Needs to have coolant running through the injector and can't effectively vent the exhaust thus the entire shop smells like following a bus for a month. I will get on with it when it warms up and I can do it outside.

Writing is of little interest to me sorry. I have to force myself to document what little I do to show you guys what I do to keep my fingers busy.
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: BruceM on February 20, 2019, 05:54:26 PM
The quality and clarity of your instructional guides here have been invaluable to me, Butch. I think you are an outstanding technical teacher, and I'd guess that your son got a huge leg up in the world thanks to you.

I'd love to see an air start and switchover to oil on this beauty when weather permits.  This machine is an amazing piece of IC engine history, and the flameless gas/spark start option that it has makes it unique.


Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: sirpedrosa on February 23, 2019, 11:25:20 AM
Hi Butch

You exceeded our expectations. Nor do we expect less. Congratulations.

BR
VP
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 08, 2019, 12:10:39 PM
Hi Butch, and thank you again for your magnificent contribution to the LEF and my own understanding of all things mechanical.
Could you explain to me why you feel the need to drag you Ruston Hornsby outside to run it on diesel. Surely it would be easier to fit a suitable flexible exhaust system rather than carry 10 tons of iron out into the yard? Sorry to be pushey but I so wan`t to see it running on diesel.

Bob
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: sirpedrosa on March 26, 2019, 03:16:21 PM
Hi Butch

Around here, no news, it's bad news!

How things are going?

Cheers
VP
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: veggie on June 01, 2019, 01:01:18 AM
That's quite the project Butch.
Well done !
It's also a chick magnet. When you display it at the county fair, all the female attention will go to you.
You know that right !   ;)

Veggie
Title: Re: Another shop project
Post by: 38ac on June 01, 2019, 12:08:58 PM
At my age the "chicks" I attract are actually spent hens :(