Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: cujet on December 24, 2018, 01:23:33 AM

Title: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: cujet on December 24, 2018, 01:23:33 AM
I'm in the market for a car. No particular need for anything special, other than I don't want to spend a lot for an appliance. (Note, I prefer performance cars, but this will be a third car for my Florida home) The $7500 EV (electric vehicle) tax credit would be really helpful this year. Since the Chevy Volt is now heavily discounted, at about $24,500-$25,500 for a base model, it's worth considering. The tax credit brings the total out of pocket cost to just under $20K. Not bad at all for an efficient car.

The Volt goes about 50 miles on a charge, and after that, the gas engine kicks in.

If I purchase one, it might be very interesting to see just how effective the 6/1 is in charging the thing.

Note 2: The 2018 Volt takes 13 hours to charge on 115V and 4.5 hours on 240 (the charger is 3.6KW) .   My 6/1 has somewhat increased RPM (770) and makes about 4400W max, 4000 with clear exhaust. HMMMMMMM :) So I think it would be just fine charging at 240V.
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: BruceM on December 24, 2018, 01:52:14 AM
Great deal!
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: dieselspanner on December 24, 2018, 09:01:24 AM
Sounds interesting at the very least.

Is there enough sun in Florida to make a Glort style array of second hand panels viable? Come to that is there a big enough market in second hand panels in the US?

With a bit of adjustment to the lifestyle, like going shopping in the evening etc. it could be well worth mixing it up with a veg oil powered CS.

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: LowGear on December 24, 2018, 05:36:02 PM
I'm not a new car kind of person but if I were I'd surely look hard at this deal.  I kind of prefer the 2016 model but they all seem a smart decision for this time in our history.  I wonder how much the extended warranty costs?

We should all set down and think about how many days 50 miles would cover our total driving needs for that day.  A second thing to remember is how many days we would only need a partial charge.  How much does it actually cost to plug it into your friendly power utility for a 50 mile ride?  15 Amps at 240 Volts is about 3600 Watts for 4.5 hours is close to 16,200 total.  In Seattle that would be $1.62 @ ten cents a kilowatt.  Does my math this morning match yours?

If you're using diesel to generate that recharge I think you should just buy an F-350 and spend the next ten years mainlining the petroleum industry with those 10 plus quart oil changes.
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: cujet on December 24, 2018, 10:18:09 PM
I drive a lot.  My commute alone in FL is 75 mi round trip.  My commute in PA is 110 round trip.  I can’t charge an electric at work.  Generally 6 days week.  Plus the trip between FL and PA a few times per yeast. 

The volt could be charged by the Listeroid and my 550 gal of waste jet A while in FL.

Really, I’d love a performance car.  But this is interesting. 
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: LowGear on December 25, 2018, 11:02:20 AM
Just as a point of information the oil change in an F-350 really scares $150.  10 quarts I last heard.

It's a shame you don't have charging at both ends of your recurring commutes.  I wonder what the gasoline mileage is on the Volt?  A cheap 50 miles every day would catch up with you pretty fast.  $5 a day, $30 a week, $1,500 a year.  The world is also becoming much more EV friendly so who knows what your charging situation will be in two years. 

They've sold over 100,000 of them.

You might drive one to see how much of a slug it really is.  We'll want a review.

How much is a new Prius?  You might be very pleasantly surprised by the LE AWD.
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: dieselspanner on December 25, 2018, 11:33:38 AM
I have the answer, Cujet!

Buy two and charge them on the solar rig on alternate days!

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: LowGear on December 25, 2018, 06:08:52 PM
I think you can also get a pretty neat lightly used Corvette for about the same money.  What to do with all that jet fuel?
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: BruceM on December 25, 2018, 06:54:10 PM
Why not find a 1963 Chrysler turbine engine car to burn that surplus jet fuel!
50 were made, Jay Leno has one. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2A5ijU3Ivs
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: dieselspanner on December 25, 2018, 08:04:52 PM
HA!

Rover had it cracked in 1950.........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_JET1

Then check out Youtube for umpteen videos.

We had Rover gas turbine fire pumps back in the 70's to discharge fresh water from 90' landing craft, they were hand crank start, two blokes, one either side, and it was as much as they could do to flash one up.

They could shift 10 tons ashore in a few minutes and empty a 5 gallon tank in about the same time....

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: BruceM on December 25, 2018, 08:28:35 PM
Ear protective gear required for the Rover Jet 1!  Awesome. 

Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: LowGear on December 26, 2018, 05:34:12 PM
Attention span alert.  Attention span alert.  Attention span alert.

Back to the Volt.

How about going for a test ride and giving us a review?



Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: broncodriver99 on December 26, 2018, 10:33:48 PM
Attention span alert.  Attention span alert.  Attention span alert.
What's a span alert? Something too wide?  ;D
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: cujet on December 27, 2018, 12:07:19 AM

Back to the Volt.

How about going for a test ride and giving us a review?

The test drive was pretty good, with both I-95 highway and fast back roads. Not much city stuff except by the dealer.

The Volt has good acceleration, but better than that, it's instant response at any speed is quite pleasing. It's quieter and more refined than most cars I rent. (I rent 1 or 2 different cars per week and know what I like)  I had to listen hard to know if the engine was running. Cornering is acceptable, responsive and flat, but it's clearly not a sports car.

Overall, a true pleasure to drive, although seat comfort on the LT (low end model) was not as good as today's typical rental Altima or Camry. However, the big drawback: it's a smaller car than I'd like. This might be my only car in my FL location for a while. It will be called upon to transport me, mama and big doggie, along with whatever we need to carry (from groceries to aircraft parts and maybe bags of concrete) . For that it's likely to be too small.

I'm still on the fence about it. I need the tax break. I need another vehicle. I really could use something a little larger and more capable.

I own a 4x4 pickup and don't care for SUV's. My preference is performance cars.






Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: M61hops on December 27, 2018, 09:41:22 AM
I keep hoping GM or somebody would make a mini-van with the Volt drive train, or maybe a full size van.  This just seems like a good way to go for what my driving needs are, I could do at least half my driving without needing to start the engine.
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: dax021 on December 28, 2018, 04:53:06 AM
My preference is performance cars.

You have mentioned this a couple of times. now. I'm getting the impression a Volt is not going to make you at all happy and perhaps what you are really looking for is someone to talk you out of buying one.

That's exactly what I was thinking.  Why not just buy that Ferrari, I will certainly support you.
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: mikenash on December 30, 2018, 06:36:28 AM
Camry hybrid . . .
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: vdubnut62 on December 30, 2018, 07:20:04 PM
I am giving serious consideration to a Nissan Leaf, but I am NOT going to take the depreciation hit on a new one. They seem to lose value
at the rate of 15-16k the first year and less after that. Also it looks like Nissan is not standing behind the battery warranty very well, and the range drops off after a while, but still after all the cons, I think one would suit my daily commute very well.
Ron
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: LowGear on December 31, 2018, 05:01:13 PM
The Fiat 500E is a ugly duckling cute town car.  I know we were talking Volt but a year ago the used Fiats were down to $6K and now they're more like $8K.  Who else figured out they were more Bosch than Fiat.  To get into a fully charged car every morning is to many just a dream.  To ride in a car that is actually quiet is another dream.  To have a car that the interest on the loan is the most costly part of ownership is a dream. 

A turn around on going electric transportation would really be an interesting ride.  Face it.  China, the biggest player on the field is going electric.  While hydrogen energy storage has some very nice sides it's just, to quote Elon, "Stupid".  When we discover a cheap way to generate hydrogen then maybe.  Just maybe.

In just two years the EV world is going to explode.  I recommend buying your hearts desire and getting that troglodyte need out of your system understanding that soon, very soon, you're going to step up to a rocket ship disguised as a sleek SUV.  Just for jun and a peek at the future test drive a Model 3.
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: cujet on January 01, 2019, 01:34:51 PM
My preference is performance cars.

You have mentioned this a couple of times. now. I'm getting the impression a Volt is not going to make you at all happy and perhaps what you are really looking for is someone to talk you out of buying one.

I decided not to purchase the Volt. (remember, I need an additional car, the tax break, and really anything will do)

What drove me to avoid the Volt was the FACT that it actually costs more (in my area) to fuel it with electricity than it does to power it with gasoline!

Local elec power is 20-22 cents per KWH, 13.5+ taxes, fees, fuel charges, line charges, hurricane charges etc. Plus the rate increases when more is used. All the way up to 17c/kwh + fees....

A Volt will go 53 city miles, about 45 mixed or 37 highway on a full charge, consuming 16.5 KWH from the car's battery. (unless ya go stupidly slow, which some EV drivers do, in which case, 70 miles is possible)

Charge efficiency is 83.8%, meaning the power meter will run up a full 20KWH to charge the Volt. Or $4 to $4.40.
Quite simply, 10 cents per mile on EV power.

The Volt gets almost 40MPG with a dead battery, using gasoline alone. Local gas is $2 to $2.20 per gal.
Or, 5 cents per mile.

Sure, local prices affect the outcome. But one thing is clear, running an EV along with AC (or heat) reduces range significantly.

So in the end, it was tempting to get what seems to be quite a good car, but it simply makes no sense to pay more per mile for the pleasure.
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: cujet on January 01, 2019, 01:44:07 PM
Face it.  China, the biggest player on the field is going electric.   

The small, short range EV is perfect for China, limiting their citizens to a small zone of travel. It's no wonder the Chinese government is pushing EV's so hard.
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: cujet on January 01, 2019, 08:01:13 PM
EV drivers seem to be eternal optimists, often quoting range figures that are unhelpful, sometime there are no chargers when that range is reached.

The better Tesla cars seem to be able to go a predicted 250 highway miles at 80, with the AC on. Unfortunately, they end up charging far before that, due to charger location. A 400 mile trip typically requires 2 charge stops. Do-able, but not ideal.

Contrast that with the 2018 Nissan Altima that will get 36MPG high speed highway, and better than 600 mile range on a tank with plenty of reserve.

My friend gets 230 EV miles from his Tesla. 100 miles fewer than predicted, due to driving style. His "fuel" cost per mile is about double the Altima. I'm finding all of this fascinating, and I'm not at all sure the EV is the way to go.
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: LowGear on January 01, 2019, 09:02:27 PM
Interesting analysis.  I learn so much on this site.
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 01, 2019, 10:50:16 PM
Hi Glort, Australia is a particularly unsuitable place for EVs because of the low population density and distances involved. I can certainly see their value in city areas but rural communities don`t have the electrical infrastructure to support them.

When I was living in London I did some research into the vulnerability of the electric supply to a terrorist attack. I was shocked to find that London is supplied by only seven incoming power lines, six above ground and one below. All of the above ground lines run through rural areas with no security and are maxed out. A single terrorist on a motorbike, with some Semtex, detonators and burn phones could take out the whole lot in an evening and still catch the Dover ferry to France.

London has a population approaching 8 million, if anyone believes that many people should charge their cars using the existing overloaded and insecure infrastructure, they are out of their minds.

I am surprised that the motor manufacturers continue down this path, when it is clear that the electrical infrastructure is completely inadequate. Perhaps it is a cynical attempt to sell us something that isn`t going to work, they can then sell us another one, with an ICE, that will.

Bob
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: BruceM on January 02, 2019, 01:27:38 AM
I expect there will be some serious glitches on the road of EV transition. 

I think we will soon see even bigger spreads on power cost depending on time of day and load-  perhaps even more than just peak, off peak, and super off peak.  If you don't plan ahead and end up charging on peak rates, it will be brutal.  I'd love to be charging a car at the APS winter super off peak rate of 3 cents a kwh.

It will also be interesting to see what happens to the numbers of people developing serious ES from the increased magnetic fields in electric cars, plus the huge increase in pulsed mm wave of 5G.  Even in conventional cars, the wireless and electronics in the car have increased dramatically.  It's almost like we're in a race to see how many people we can disable and destroy their quality of life. 






 
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: cujet on January 02, 2019, 02:43:24 AM
I drive quite a few miles per year. Including a good number 1000 mile trips from FL to PA. The truth is, an EV can't make the trip in a reasonable amount of time.

Here is an interesting blog: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089948_tesla-model-s-ny-to-fl-trip-from-home-to-south-carolina
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: BruceM on January 02, 2019, 03:31:43 AM
No doubt battery improvement will continue, and range and weight will decline.  There seems to be a good number of people willing to pony up for the current EVs, and that can only help with battery research and development funding.  Pragmatists will certainly benefit from waiting.

By all technical reports, Tesla has done exceptionally well in battery management- by that I mean cell voltage control at the cell level, not hoping a bunch of cells in series will cycle and stay matched in charge level.  They use a boatload of tiny TI battery management ICs with serial bus communications.  Nissan is paying for their BMS corner cutting with lots of battery failures under warranty.  I haven't found the details on the Bolt battery management scheme, but knowing GM cost pressures on Delco, I would investigate closely and give them a few years to take their lumps.








Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: mikenash on January 02, 2019, 03:59:52 AM
I'm less of a pessimist than Glort et al re the EVs (not to say that I may well be proved wrong and they may well be proved right . . .) I'm just more glass-half-full about that sort of thing

That Blog is fascinating as it's a real-world guy driving at 130 km/h (end up in handcuffs here if you do that, sadly) and using the heater and lights and enjoying the performance of his car in real-world conditions such as snow, and accepting that you normally break a trip for lunch or whatever somewhere anyway

For a great many people like me an EV would be a perfect service vehicle if there was a fast charger at my work - and if suitable vehicles were available.  Our team of seven engineers have daily commutes ranging from 80Ks (mine) down to 8Ks.  Our normal travel-to-job-and-back is usually about an 80K round-trip for 90% of jobs and up to maybe 250Ks for the farthest one or two sites.  I get a $100 fill of diesel one-and-a-half or two times a week. Sometimes three times a week if we are busy

Our small country has old-but-acceptable electrical infrastructure and we are 85%+ renewable.  Our government says that projected infrastructure upgrades are showing a faster growth in the provision of electricity availability than would be needed with even the most optimistic EV uptake projections

We also have big proportions of our population who are 3/4-hour one-way-trip commuters twice a day on routes that don't have good public transport.  EVs would probably serve many of them well

FWIW the Toyota Hiluxes and Isuzu DMaxes we use are $50K vehicles but the Indian and Chinese equivalents (reliability still to be proven) are only around half that $$ as fleet purchases.  In the future, I suspect that if there's a demand, there may well be Chinese-built EV service vehicles in the pipeline

I'm optimistic about the contribution tech can make to the challenges around EVs

What I'm less optimistic about is local and national government leading by example, moving their fleets to EVs, and contributing to a pool of secondhand Leafs or similar as the years go by and government vehicle fleets "rollover" every three years

NZ government fleet is conservatively estimated at 25,000 units, with local government fleets possibly adding a similar figure.  Some of these are buses and rubbish trucks etc; but if just half were suitable (say 24,000 cos it's an easy number) and if a third of them were rolled-over annually - that'd be 8000 2nd-hand EVs on the market every year

Kiwis register something like 700 Corollas, 200 i30s and Mazda3s plus another 400-odd similar-sized vehicles every month.  Maybe, in very crude terms, you could say we register 1300 vehicles every month that could be readily replaced by small/mid-sized EVs IF THEY WERE AVAILABLE.  Call it 16,000 a year for ease of maths and you could see the contribution that ex-govt-fleet of 8000 EVs would make if our governments had some balls

We could generate and reticulate the electricity with ease if there was a governmental will.  If the average diesel/petrol tanker holds 28,000 litres, and my Hilux uses 7,500 litres of diesel a year, every half-dozen comparable vehicles or, say, 15 "Corolla"-sized cars replaced by EVs might take a tanker-and-trailer off the road

Should I hold my breath?

Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 02, 2019, 05:47:09 AM
I have to agree with Mikenash about NZ being a perfect candidate for EVs, plentiful hydroelectric power and short commuting distances are an ideal environment in which to test these new technologies.

BruceM raises a very valid point about the dangers of exposing ever more people to ever greater levels of electromagnetic radiation. I heard a very worrying statistic recently, in the USA 1 in 28 children born today will be diagnosed as having some form of autism. In the 1980s the figure was closer to 1 in 2000. Strangely enough in undeveloped parts of the world the incidence is almost nil.

Glort is quite right about the availability of the minerals/metals required for battery production and the difficulty off ramping up the mining operations to meet this new demand. I wonder how much fossil fuel gets burned in the mining, processing and distribution of these materials, might be more economically sensible to just use the FFs in an ICE.

I guess as we continue to deplete the available resources the prices will climb to a point at which only the very wealthy will be able to afford them and the rest of us will have to go back to walking, cycling, riding horses and siting in the dark on an evening. Pretty bleak future unless you own a Lister. Might be time to get back to finishing mine.

Bob
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: buickanddeere on February 04, 2019, 02:03:19 PM
18.4Kw hr if used 0-100% on the Volt .  The Bolt has a serious sized battery pack with 60Kw hr . https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Bolt
Title: Re: Now for a bit of silliness, possibly purchasing a Chevy Volt....
Post by: John (Boston) on February 12, 2019, 03:41:43 PM
Since this message came back up near the top I'll add a couple of comments...  First, the two people that I know who have Volts love them.  But, their commutes are such that they can charge them enough to make it worthwhile.

My commute is too long for an EV.  I actually HAD one (a 1996 Ford Escort conversion).  It was a cool car, built by a good friend who has sadly passed away.  I tried to come up with methods to "make it fly" but in the end the distance was too long, batteries too heavy (to add more), and charge cycles too deep (as most of you know this ruins the batteries).  I reluctantly sold it.

Then, two years ago I bought a used 2009 Prius.  This is the last year of the second generation (in USA).  I was never a "Prius hater" but I will say that I had no idea how good they were.  I wasn't interested in them at all until I was pressed into getting a reliable car that would "pay for itself" - and one that my Wife could also drive (not a manual shift).

In my search I did NOT want an automatic.  Modern automatics scare me.  They are very complicated and enough friends have had them go out - leaving them with either a very expensive repair, or - junking a perfectly nice car.  The Prius (not sure about the newest ones) really has NO transmission.  It has two electric motors and a gas engine, the three connected by a planetary gear set.  There is no shifting - nothing to wear out.  They make the setup work like a CVT by varying the motor torques.

So, I've been driving this car for nearly two years (put about 33K miles on it) - and I LOVE it.  What a nice car.  I can carry the strangest things in the back - and close the hatch (a claw foot bath tub, a 55 gallon barrel, ten foot long boards) things you'd never get into a lot of cars).  Once you learn how to "play" the computers you can get some pretty serious miles per gallon out of these.  On my commute (back roads) I get 55 to65 MPG, typically.  Highway I only get 50.  Cold weather makes the MPG go down, understandably.

Anyway, not sure if this will help anyone here but...  for some this is a darn good commuter car.

-John (Boston)