Lister Engine Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ajaffa1 on November 28, 2018, 07:24:10 AM
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Hi Guys, another massive power outage. The power is out for about 300 km up and down the coast from Urunga to just north of Lismore. So much for the gold standard poles and infrastructure promised to us when they privatized the distribution network. Guess all the executives are too busy investing their ill gotten and drinking champagne to worry about the customers they are supposed to service. Third outage in the last month.
Fired up the old ST2 and we now have power, I`ll be having a nice warm shower while everyone else will be going to bed dirty. I have phoned a few neighbors and invited them to come round.
Got to worry about the guys in Queensland who are facing catastrophic bush fires, with unprecedented threat to life and property, hoping they are not getting the 80 Km winds we are.
Got to go check the genny isn`t leaking oil or fuel.
Bob
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When we first moved to the farm I was all excited about installing a backup generator. As I was shopping for disconnect switches my favorite electrical equipment salesman asked kind of the same questions. "How often does the power go off?" and "How long are those episodes?". I decided to live here for six months and see. We have better service out here 20 miles from town than we had back in the suburbs of Seattle.
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I've been doing some research on power co. grounding practices around the world.
Bob's comment:
''The power is out for about 300 km up and down the coast from Urunga to just north of Lismore. So much for the gold standard poles and infrastructure promised to us when they privatized the distribution network. Guess all the executives are too busy investing their ill gotten and drinking champagne to worry about the customers they are supposed to service. Third outage in the last month.''
reminded me that Australia, most of the US, and Canada are the worst offenders in the world. They all use T-NC (terra-neutral connected) with "MEN- multiply earthed neutral" of the distribution neutral, and bypass transformer isolation in order to use the customer's grounding for their distribution line. This is an abomination from the 1920's, which allowed the power co.s to save a few bucks by connected their lines to the customer water pipes (at the expense of customer safety and hugely elevated magetic fields).
This causes magnetic fields in homes and yards 100x higher than need be. To then add a digital meter to this 1920's tech abomination and call it "smart" is like adding a digital pulse rate monitor on a horse pulling a buggy.
Many other countries use WYE distribution with proper single point grounding of the neutral to avoid injecting current through the earth and aquifers. They use RCD main service breaker and independent earth connection for the home earth connection. This is called T-T (terra-terra) grounding and is the fastest growing system, worldwide. If you wanted to improve your countries grid, you should be bellowing for this, or I-T grounding, which is isolated, non-grounded lines- aka Delta, with earth grounding of the secondary (customer) neutral. A few older cities in the US still use Delta, or I-T grounding, but 90% of the US is the abominable T-NC.
Privatized energy systems suffer the worst from the "race to the bottom" for service of lines, customers and customer health. But they do make nice fat profits for shareholders and their executives. It's interesting that as far as I can find so far, no nationally owned grid system in the world uses the abomination of T-NC grounding practice.
Based on the independent research from the 70's through today, the cost of this basic infrastructure grounding practice in public health misery and costs is huge.
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The history of private power companies in the US is also a classic tale of graft and corruption at the expense of the public They invented what we now call "cigarette science" in the 1970's when independent research showed that EMFs were a serious health stressor. They spent a bundle on bribes and to "campaign funds" to get the system we have in the US, where they have a monopoly but are "regulated" mostly by regulators who they fund, now openly here in AZ. The public has no clue as the extent of collusion and corruption.
I moved off grid because of their insane T-NC with MEN (multiply earthed neutral), which caused my MS and epilepsy to flair up badly seasonally with load increases on our rural single phase power. I now say with the cheap PV prices that the time is ripe to tell them to STUFF IT. There is no chance of them behaving in a responsible way.
Load shifting and super quiet (CS ring a bell) backup generator can save you a bundle in batteries. The conventional houses and building codes were built with cheap power in mind, or just altogether ignoring operating power costs. A hell of a lot more insulation and redesign to improve energy efficiency is in order for retrofits. Propane is a good clean fuel as solar backup and I expect synthetic propane will come along in another decade or two.
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Up at my "retirement property" (a shed in a paddock with no services lol - and that's assuming there will be "retirement") I have one of the CS Listers sitting gathering dust & birdshit and a couple of 230V gen heads in the shed - a project for "when I have time". Plus there's a couple of big, 24VDC Leece-Neville truck alternators waiting to do some work - when I have time . . .
When I finally move up there, I'll put in some PV and batteries as the Bay of Plenty is NZ's sunshine capital - maybe in four or five years?
Meantime there's nothing to gain by having good batteries turning to sulphated crap by sitting around doing nothing for months on end - so solar can wait. So I have several of the much-maligned petrol "screamers"
Pride of the fleet is a 2.4kW Chinese copy of a Honda. New, 7 years ago, it cost $400. I couldn't tell you how many hours it has done - hundreds anyway. It has had a new carb ($40 and possibly unnecessary) and a new AVR ($27). Both easy-peasy fits. It's really quiet. When I'm up there I just plonk it out behind my old Camry wagon at the end of an extension flex. It has often run for 12-15 hours at a time on a winter's day. Being petrol it doesn't mind running no-load
I have a genuine Honda 2.2kW unit which cost three times as much and that's the one I lend to neighbours whenever there's a power cut as it has a very easy pull-start. There are lots of power outages up there due to steep terrain, storms and trees near power lines. Also it's the one which my lady friend uses if she's up there on her own as she can manage the pull-start easily and it always starts first or second yank. Otherwise it just sits under the shed doing nothing
There's also a big, circa 7kW unit which runs the hot-water-in-a-hurry cylinder. That's a 60-litre cylinder with a 3600W element that draws about 15A on a 20A Reyrolle plug and heats up from cold in about half an hour to 85 degrees. I use that if the sun isn't shining for the solat hot water or if the stove-with-wetback isn't running
For some reason I also have a "spare" It sort of followed me home one day - a 3kW Chinese Honda copy with an electric start - I haven't used it in a year. it was the electric start that sold it, I guess
All of them are kept full of gas with about a 1/0th of 1% mix of fuel stabiliser. They always seem to start up just fine
I keep a spare carb and a spare starter assembly and a spare AVR and a pair of (light and heavy) throttle springs up there "just in case" as well. I have long since established that - despite different stickers on the Chinese tinware, and different designs to the Chinese plastic bits - mechanically they are identical
Despite the bad press they get from purists - I think they're great. I have convenience, reliability, redundancy in depth . . . I guess the whole lot probably owe me something like $2200 spent over the last five years. I may never have to spend another penny on them
There's a lot to be said for convenience when you turn up at midnight after a day's work and a six-hour drive
Just my $0.02 on the generator front
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Well guts, yesterdays power outage has convinced me that it really is time to complete my Lister CS/ ST5 project. Running the Lister ST2 and only pulling one third of it`s available output is not going to be doing it any good. It needs a long run under heavy load or the cylinders start to glaze. Running the CS, with the same load, would be somewhere between half and three quarter power. Much better.
Dropped the head and cylinder off at the local engineering shop this morning. In a very strange twist of fate the guy who will be doing the work is the same guy that recovered, what was left of my Ute,from a field two years ago after my accident. Wonder if I`ll get discount as a regular customer?
I`ve got a couple of those Chonda engines running water pumps, never had a problem with the engines only the carburetors. Replaced them with genuine Honda carbs and they run a dream, I think the difference is simply a quality control issue or possibly poor gaskets.
Couple of pics showing the ST unloaded and loaded.
Bob
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I`ve got a couple of those Chonda engines running water pumps, never had a problem with the engines only the carburetors. Replaced them with genuine Honda carbs and they run a dream, I think the difference is simply a quality control issue or possibly poor gaskets.
Couple of pics showing the ST unloaded and loaded.
Bob
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By chance I live & work near an importer of these generators - they do anything that is portable-ish & has a Chinese Honda-clone engine - generators, pumps, log-splitters, concrete-cutters . . . and I have found them to be honest and capable.
They maintain their particular motor supplier also makes Hondas - as evidence they showed me a bunch of spare parts in Honda-logo boxes with the Honda stuff scribbled over with black felt pen . . .
As you say, Bob, QC is key, and I have never had an issue with any of these guys' gear. Fingers crossed
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Hey Glort, strangely enough the local machine shop also repairs/services motor vehicles. They have the NRMA franchise to tow/recover damaged vehicles. Very lucrative business considering how many hoons and f*ckwits there are on the roads these days.
I have also had big problems with fuel lines going hard and brittle. Not sure if the problem is with the fuel or cheaply imported fuel lines. I only ever run E10 in one lawn mower that is reasonably new and specifies it as the fuel of choice. It does not appear to be any more or less reliable than any of my other equipment. E10 is probably OK provided you don`t let it stand too long, once it has absorbed a whole lot of moisture out of the atmosphere it will cause corrosion to any metal parts it comes in contact with. The lawn mower in question has a plastic fuel tank, plastic and nylon carburetor and polyethylene fuel lines, nothing to corrode.
I have four chainsaws of various sizes and makes. One of them I made the mistake of putting E10 in. It ran perfectly well until I wanted to refill it and couldn`t get the fuel filler cap off. Apparently this is a common problem with these saws, the ethanol in the fuel causes the plastic cap to swell! Once I did get the cap off with a wrench I left it open overnight, the ethanol evaporated and the cap fits perfectly. If you are looking for chainsaw parts for Husqvarna or Stihl check out a company called Farmertec in Singapore, the prices are about a quarter of what you will pay here.
Hi Mike, pretty sure you are right about Honda having stuff made in China. Nothing wrong with that, the Chinese are perfectly capable of making very good quality machinery. The mistake people make is in trying to drive the price of components down too low, at which point the manufacturer will have to start cutting corners and reducing quality.
One trick I always use on Chonda engines is to run them for a few hours and then re-torque all the bolts including the cylinder head. I haven`t had to replace a head gasket since I started doing this. One of my Chinese Davey pumps leaked from day one, striped it and found that some idiot had put the ceramic seals in back to front, it`s run like a champion ever since.
I have another one which I need to connect up to the dam, This one will be used to irrigate fruit trees and will have a diverter valve to pump water up to a sprinkler system on the roof, in the event of another bush fire. Not sure I`m up to digging trenches at the moment so it will have to wait.
Amazing how many of these motors, pumps, chainsaws and generators get thrown out by incompetent home owners every time there is a council cleanup. I guess if it doesn`t start first go they just chuck it out and buy a new one. Great for the Chinese economy and very bad for ours, can`t be doing much for the environment either.
Bob
Bob
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Interesting comment about re-torquing things. I haven't made that observation
We have the Chinese motors in pumps & small gensets at work which we use pretty hard - issues are commonly limited to the odd AVR, replacement starter assemblies cos it's easier than pull-cords, and an annual oil-change
You're on the $$ re quality control and price point. After all, the Chinese make cars & high-speed rail and aircraft carriers etc. It's our own fault if we demand cheap and then get cheap
The downside is that our demand for cheap has driven suppliers of well-made, last-a-lifetime stuff into extinction. Look at the way an old 20-series John Deere or an old Ford 5000 is still running after 40 years as long as it's had a bit of maintenance. Or a proper Husqvarna or Jonsereds saw. Or a CS for that matter :)
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Hi Mike, another downside of our wasteful, cheap mentality is that most young families stick the cost of this awful crap on a credit card. The tool/machine is scrap before they have even finished paying it off. Their total lack of any practical knowledge of machinery just exacerbates the problem.
Bob
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I like reading the posts about generators always good to learn something. I am warming to Chinese machines a little but God there's still some crap around.
https://www.gumtree.com/p/generators/brand-new-silent-6.5kw-mill-german-generator/1322198385
These seem particularly cheap and nasty they are on all the local selling websites usually being sold by guys with thick Irish accents and driving white vans. I was reading somewhere recently that the windings in these generators are aluminium which I doubt is a good thing.
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Hey Johndoh, when I lived in the UK there were no end of Irish travelers trying to sell stuff to the workers on my building sites. It all looked good but was made from mild steel rather than high carbon steel. Had to ban these guys from site and make it by appointment only with reputable dealers.
Aluminium is a better conductor than copper but melts at 660 degrees Celsius, Copper melts at around 1085 Celsius, I`m sure you can work out the difference for yourself.
Bob
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I think that's bit of a moot point Bob.
The insulation varnish on whatever windings will be well and truly Kaput at 300o no matter what the windings are made of! There are a lot of advantages of copper over ally, price is about the only drawback but given the same units in each, I doubt the difference would be that much.
Maybe biggest problem with ally windings is if they cheap out on the coils, they probably make everything else as cheap and dodgy as they can as well.
In Ireland we refer to travellers as them fcukers!
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"Aluminium is a better conductor than copper but melts at 660 degrees Celsius, Copper melts at around 1085 Celsius, I`m sure you can work out the difference for yourself."
Copper is the better electrical conductor by far. (Also better for heat conduction.)
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/copper-aluminum-conductor-resistance-d_1877.html
The problem with aluminum wire is usually the larger size to carry the same current, and the problem of dissimilar metals and corrosion at connections. My neighbor's ST-3 with aluminum windings on the rotor failed- with an open winding on one rotor coil. The failure was NOT at the terminals, but somewhere in the middle of the winding. So I would conclude that it was a flaw in metalurgy. I've never seen that happen in copper but don't know enough about aluminum wire failures to be certain.
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FWIW the generator guys that we deal with say they have never seen an actual alternator failure on the China gensets and were quite dismissive of the idea - "you never get an alternator failure - things like AVRs, yes, but never the windings" Probably not a lot of load on a 2-10kVA unit actual copper windings?
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You'll see a lot of PCM or ice freezing A/C assist cool storage systems in the near future. The power co.s will push peak power rates so high you'll do anything to avoid them. It's going to get ugly, and the Power Co.s will do anything they can to keep the status quo.
For off grid, freezing/PCM to store cool is clearly the way to go.
Sydney's climate is pretty mild.
https://weatherspark.com/y/144544/Average-Weather-in-Sydney-Australia-Year-Round
If this is correct, a super insulated home would likely need very little cooling if any. Little enough that cooling the water for the in-floor pex could do it, as I plan to do and which is very well proven. The cooling could be during the sunny (PV) day.
In the past, mild climate homes get little or no insulation, and owners just throw energy at the problem. Those days will be coming to a close in the next 30 years.
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So the Australian power grid won`t be able to meet demand if it gets hot in the summer. When was the last time we had a cold summer? The energy companies need to wake up to reality and make the much needed investment in new generating capacity. Something they are not going to do until the politicos stop fighting among themselves and introduce a long term energy plan.
The idea that we should all switch from internal combustion engines to electric vehicles is plainly nonsense. I`m sure there must be scientists and engineers that know this, so why are we all being lied to?
Definitely need to get a wriggle on with my CS project. One of the questions I have is about my grid tied inverter. When there is a power outage there is no 50 Hz signal to drive it so it produces nothing, would the output from a generator be stable enough to provide that 50 Hz? My second worry is that the output from said inverter would then reduce the demand on the generator, would the governor react quickly enough to prevent over voltage or would I end up cycling the two against each other and blow something up?
Perhaps I should be looking at a second stand alone inverter and array with generator backup. If I did that the grid tied system could export it`s entire production and the electric company would end up having to pay me money! :laugh:
Bob
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As you suspected, Bob, you will need a stand alone inverter. The grid tie inverter won't do the job. There are some new models that do support a backup power mode when the grid is down.
If you hook it to a generator, the poor bugger will try to pump power back onto the generator, which will then overvoltage and turn off the inverter almost immediately.
All inverters should have at least a dual stage common mode choke filter on inputs and outputs. Dirt cheap health insurance.
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Thanks Bruce, thought that would be the case, I`ll start looking for a decent second hand stand alone inverter. Wonder if I should get more panels or put a diverter switch on the panels I have?
Bob
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Yes, PCM is phase change material. For a cooling system just water freezing at 0C is OK, but for colder temperatures, other materials can be used or a bit of antifreeze added.
Your bigger temperature swings don't change the situation regarding super-insulation. The peaks don't really matter; I have temps over 100F regularly in June, but the house stays around 68-71F. Cool night time air, with open windows is all I need to drop it back down to 68 overnight. I occasionally get tricked by late clouds and a warm night, but not often.
As long as the total demand for cooling isn't too high, and the humidity isn't high, the in floor pex for heating can be used for cooling, with water temperatures around 55-60F. If the water is too cold, or house is too humid, you get condensation on the tile floor. A higher volume pump would help avoid cold spots.
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Bob, I can't remember the big picture of your homestead power. One of the dual use inverters might be good for you, with a modest battery bank which could be augmented with Lister power.
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Good advice Glort. Auto batteries do very well for the "ballast" since they are designed for (and good for) very high discharge rates, and high charge rates too.
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Hey Guys...
Take a look here: http://www.digipoint.co.za:85 (http://www.digipoint.co.za:85) This is basically a battery ballasted system I have running - 48V DC buss on 4Kw of panels, offline inverter/charger... If power goes down at night, the inverter acts as a UPS until the emergency screamer auto-starts, when everyone has woken up from the noise, I start old thumper, then the emergency unit shuts down automatically.... To keep everyone in the neighborhood on their toes, I turn on a bloody great loud siren on the raw mains circuit, this lets us know "subtly" when the grid is back up and running....
Cheers
Ed
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Thanks guys for that enormous amount of information. I`m off to Sydney for more medical assessments in the morning so I probably won`t be posting until Wednesday/Thursday.
It is difficult to express the horror that I feel about this trip, I don`t want to go but it has been forced on me by the insurance companies and lawyers. I have PTSD and am terrified in motor vehicles, I have no idea how I will cope in an airplane. Guess we will find out tomorrow, if you see some nutcase going postal worker at Grafton or Sydney airport it is probably me. Unofficially my councilor has recommended I dose my self with Valium about an hour before the flight, I`m not entirely sure flying wasted is the best solution but it may be the only option.
How I am expected to cope with Sydney traffic is a total mystery to me, I can`t cope with the traffic in Grafton! Very much hoping this ridiculous exercise isn`t going to induce another heart attack but I can`t help thinking that is all part of the insurance companies plan. Dead men don`t get compensation so lets give this old c*nt the run about and see if we can kill him.
What I find really offensive about this entire exercise is that non of these doctors I am seeing are allowed to make a diagnosis or recommend a treatment/therapy regime that might help me. These guys work for the insurance industry so when I arrive I will have to sign a waver allowing them to share my information with others.They will then determine if I am fit for work or compensation regardless of the wishes and diagnosis of the doctors who are actually treating me. What a crock of shit! Depending on how it goes, I may have to hunt some of these f*ckers down and explain to them the error of their ways. Don`t have a gun licence anymore because I am on anti depressants but I still know where the guns are kept. :laugh:
While I am away, I would like to know how to rectify 240 volt AC at 15 Amps to smooth filtered DC at around 380 Volts at similar current. I`m hoping this should keep you guys busy and out of trouble till I get back.
Bob
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To take 240VAC to 380VDC with moderate ripple, and intended for a generator requires a large step up transfomer to 385VAC (or a few volts more than your desired DC output), then a well heatsinked bridge rectifier, a large choke of at least 5 millihenries, and at least 10000 uF of HV capacitor. For less ripple, add a second choke and capacitor. The chokes and capacitors are going to be large and spendy. This is how I do it as I loathe switching supplies and their unintentional emissions. I used this method for my 12 amp 230V AC to 146v DC battery bank charger. It used a surplus 230V to 115v step down transformer plus a motorized variac in series to adjust the charge current. It's been retired after about 10 years of reliable service since my PV has been increased from 875 to 2375 watts; even on cloudy days I now have plenty of power.
A power factor corrected switching AC to DC supply is the typical modern solution and might save some size and expense...but only if you can find one for a good price.
A two stage common mode choke filter could be used to knock down the conducted HI frequency emissions to the inverter I'm assuming you're supplying. The inverter may otherwise have troubles.
Sorry for your torture at the hands of insurance co. whores. I went though that about 30 years ago, to a very bad result for my health.
Sorry for the PTSD, that's a tough one. CBD oil alone or pot with 1:1 CBD to THC works for some, according to the AZ veterans support group. They had quite a fight to get pot approved for PTSD in our state. I use it periodically for head and muscle pain and for control of complex partial seizures. Compared to all the 2 dozen anticonvulsants I've tried (on some for 15 years, causing depression and liver, gallbladder, and kidney problems), it's pretty damned amazing. A good side effect is my depression is improved the next morning from a night time dose which helps me sleep on a rough night. Very small doses below getting "high" work best for me. Too much THC just causes pain and paranoia for me, though I know for some it's very helpful for depression.
My quality of life has improved greatly because of it.
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Good luck Bob
FWIW my lady friend - she who can only start the easi-start Honda genset - has suffered a life of PTSD as a legacy of ugly childhood abuse stuff and physical damage associated with that
Years before we met, ACC doctors & conventional medicine had left her wheelchair-bound, very unwell, very overweight, and unable to cope with normal social interactions and many physical situations such as your traffic/confinement stuff. Drugs like Prednisone were slowly killing her
A few years ago she began to research her conditions and situation and to take charge of her own medical processes (after a long struggle to find both a doctor and a pharmacist who "got it")
These days she is fit and active, takes no meds apart from an evening dose of an antagonist, lives independently and enjoys her grandchildren
She is a very smart woman who used the power of her intelligence and the information available in books and the internet, plus her bloody-minded determination, to take back control from ACC (read insurance) doctors and regain her life
It's worth commenting that she did that un-supported, largely, with no $$ at all - just living on something like a sickness benefit from ACC, and in very poor circumstances. Mostly just "determination in action"
I guess I'm saying that "if she can then you can". Good luck
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I'd make a screened room, and put Switching Power supplies in it, clean the DC power up as it comes out of the shield room. Much smaller inductors and caps with high freq switchers (and better power factor) and parts will be avaib in 5 years if it needs rework. Big 400V computer filter caps are really expensive.
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The high voltage caps for a simple linear supply are spendy. The PF for a linear supply with a choke over critical value is nearly perfect. Switcher's are hardly the robust and long lived solution. Good luck finding an affordable switching supply with good PF, the desired DC voltage, at 15 amps.
If you are running a generator for the 230VAC source, changing to a 3 phase head and modifying or adjusting an AVR to generate the desired 380VDC or whatever is desired directly might be a nice solution. Depending on the inverter, just 3 phase rectification alone (no choke or caps) might be all you need.
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Hi Guys, got back today, flights all OK. I had no idea my flight was being stalked by Glort but I wouldn`t expect anything less. :laugh:
The trip was a total waste of time and the governments money because when I got to see the specialist doctors their information was months out of date. So I have been sent home awaiting another summons to attend the government doctors, once the doctors,lawyers and insurance companies have got their acts together.
I haven`t had time to catch up on all the posts I missed while I was away, I`ll try to catch up in the morning.
Bob
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Hey buddy, this wasn`t a social trip. I would have liked to catch up with you but reason prevailed. I stayed with my Brother in Law who lives in the Eastern suburbs. He very kindly drove me to all the appointments and to and from the airport.
I also got to go and see my Father in Law, he has dementia and is in an aged care facility. I haven`t been able to visit him for over two years. He was a wonderful man before this terrible disease took him from us. Incredibly he remembered me and knew my name, we took him to the beach and fed him ice cream, he smiled and laughed. I guess that`s one thing ticked off my bucket list, hearing my Wife`s Father laugh again.
I`ve still got to pen a stinking email to my lawyers asking why I had to go to Sydney for assessment when my medical issues are still ongoing and undiagnosed/untreated.
Bob