Lister Engine Forum

How to / DIY => Engines => Topic started by: scott p on October 29, 2018, 06:36:49 PM

Title: HR2
Post by: scott p on October 29, 2018, 06:36:49 PM
Any body familiar with these engines? Finishing a rebuild and have it setup as  per the manual. Will run at 1800 rpm until loaded then the rpm falls off on account the pump rack coming up against the overload trip.

The spill is correct. The fuel pump and governor settings are correct to the last step,which is setting engine load.

This involves turning the overload stop downwards or upwards for various speeds. Not sure what they mean by that.
Title: Re: HR2
Post by: dieselgman on November 08, 2018, 12:59:55 AM
There are a number of different governor and linkage configurations for the HR.

If rack is hitting overload, then either the settings are wrong or the engine is not developing power to match that load.

Which engine model and what is your load?
Title: Re: HR2
Post by: scott p on November 11, 2018, 03:59:23 AM
Engine plate number  3629 HR2 A 20    Engine originally attached to a generator.  Generator plate DW 150 A serial 3153
Title: Re: HR2
Post by: scott p on November 12, 2018, 06:26:52 PM
The load is variable, it's running a (circle saw) saw mill through a hydraulic pump and motor.
       According to some formulas concerning hydraulic fluid pressure converted to HP the HR2 should be able to handle it but don't know for sure because of the above mentioned problem.
     I did though, clamp  the overload TRIP up out of the way and the HR plowed through the wood no problem. That of course shouldn't be necessary, the overload trip is very handy for starting.the engine
     I have checked and double checked the steps outlined in the manual as to setting the fuel pump and governor I am quite certain it is correct according to the manual  I am using, which is a Lister HR2 and HR3 workshop manual.
     Except for the last step, which is labeled, setting engine load.
     Final setting for engine application is carried out by turning the overload STOP downwards or upwards. At 1200 to 1800 rpm four flats down. I puzzled over that until I noticed there was only one way to get a wrench to the overload STOP so based on that I turned it four flats down, which moved the rack setting marks about an eighth of an inch away from the pump body towards the flywheel.

     This maneuver did not help, the racks still abut up against the overload TRIP,which slowly kills the engine when under load.

     So that's my story, I didn't want to get into that much detail on account sometimes too many words can make the problem blurry.
Title: Re: HR2
Post by: oldgoat on January 15, 2019, 11:56:28 AM
The HR2 only has 27 HP at 2200 it might be just too anaemic for your saw.
Title: Re: HR2
Post by: cobbadog on January 16, 2019, 03:47:09 AM
It is details that can resolve issues. I don't have an answer but maybe as suggetsed it is not big enough or there is an issue with the setting up.
Title: Re: HR2
Post by: scott p on March 08, 2019, 08:44:55 PM
OK, We start from the beginning and perhaps something will emerge.

I purchased the engine from a fellow who set out to rebuild it for a generator. He suffered a medical situation and was not able to finish the job. He had a machine shop do some of the work and did some himself.

Unfortunately he apparently let the engine be at least partially exposed to the weather or at least some of the parts, which were rusty. When I got it home I found a large mouse nest in the air cowling and the crankcase was contaminated with rodent waste and spider webs.

At that point it seemed appropriate to dismantled it completely and start from scratch. The piston cylinder assemblies were new. All of the bearings were new and assembled correctly.

Installed the crankshaft and set the end play. Installed the cam and the pistons, made sure the pistons were orientated correctly and the cam meshed with the crank. I set the piston to head clearance as per the manual. I adjusted the valve clearance as per the manual.

The fuel pumps are new and I messed around with the timing procedure until I had a good idea on how I could do it correctly.

The injectors didnít look so good so I sent them off to be cleaned up and rebuilt.

The governor weight numbers matched the numbers for weights designed to run at 1800n as per the manual. The speeder spring had lost its color so I donít know about that; it appeared to be in good condition, the windings nice and tight.

This I believe brings us to the part dealing with the fuel pump and governor setting, which I have already covered.

The sawmill is actually sawing wood probably less than half the time that the engine is running due to various reasons So I attached a small air cylinder to the speeder spring so that the engine idles down to about 1200 rpm when not sawing and 1800 thereabouts when sawing. I am using the 1800-rpm weights and spring. When the air cylinder hits the stops it does not move, guaranteed.

I did purchase a set of variable speed weights and spring, havenít tried them yet. I believe this is a build 20 engine designed to run at constant speed. Perhaps a engine that is variable speed capable has a lighter flywheel or some other design function different than this engine?? My train of thought is that once this engine is revving at 1800 with the proper weights and spring it shouldnít matter if I idle it down between runs.

The weather has been less than pleasant and I havenít really used the mill much since my last post. From what little I have seem I am relatively certain the HR will handle the load but that remains to be seen for certain. I have been looking through the steps for setting it up and will look things over again when the weather warms up.

Title: Re: HR2
Post by: cobbadog on March 10, 2019, 05:40:35 AM
Mate, it sounds as if you should have a brand new engine ready for any use.

More things to consider are,

What HP is required to run the hydraulics when loaded and does it match your engine?

Maybe the issue is you need a 2200 RPM governor setting

When you over rode the 'overload trip' that allowed the engine to rev over the 1800 RPM. Maybe and that is why it appeared to work.

It will be interesting if you get the chance to change over those variable springs and weights to see what happens.

I am only throwing ideas out there that may help you out, so hopefully something might twig for you and all come together and work.
Good luck and keep us informed.
Title: Re: HR2
Post by: scott p on March 10, 2019, 10:35:04 PM
Thanks for the input dieselgman, old goat and cobbadog.

The formula I use to get a hydraulic PSI to Horse Power is as follows.

HP = (PSI X GPM) / 1714

The hydraulic pressure usually doesnít go beyond 1500 PSI. It would be ideal to have a constant saw feed speed but that is not the case here. I can vary the saw feed.

21 GPM at 1500 PSI comes out to around 18 HP/ 22 HP at 1800 PSI, much beyond that and the pressure relief valve opens.

Concerning the variable speed setup. Iíve been looking at the various builds of these machines in the manual I have and have noticed some builds use a standard flywheel and others use a high-speed flywheel. It seems for the most part high speed flywheels are used for machines that can be revved to 2200 RPM but some 60 Hertz machines also have the high speed. If this engine is a build 20 it comes with a standard flywheel. Is it wise to run it beyond 1800 RPM? It looks like 2000 would clear all losses and have room to spare.
Title: Re: HR2
Post by: cobbadog on March 17, 2019, 03:57:38 AM
Going by what you have resolved is that you need a minimum of 18hp therefore a near maximum RPM of your engine so it should be running at or near the governed speed to operate.
I would not recommend the running of it over and above the recommended RPM. I know that in some cases engine manufacturers will lift the RPM to get that extra HP to be able use their engines on items that require that extra HP, not always a good idea as it could end up in shortening the engine life over time.Also by what you have told us is that a similar engine can be upgraded to a higher RPM BUT they did fit a differnt flywheel. The heavier flywheel helps in maintaining the revs under load but requires more fuel to get to that point and maintain that level of HP.
Title: Re: HR2
Post by: scott p on April 05, 2019, 06:44:02 AM

Well-said Cobbadog.
      The weather warmed up so I rechecked the settings on the HR. Everything was good . Itís interesting that the first step says to set the engine to the run position. This machine does not have that type of start, run, stop device. All it has is a fuel shut off lever.
I am not going to use the variable speed weights and will stick to 1800 RPM.
The last step, which is outlined below is labeled setting engine load. It seems obvious that setting the engine load is important. As I mentioned before the overload stop does have flats like a bolt head and can only be accessed from one side so I turned it four flats down. That put the calibration marks on the racks a strong sixteenth of an inch towards the flywheel. I wrote this before but to recap.

setting engine load
Final setting for engine application is carried out by turning the overload stop downwards or upwards. Settings are as follows.
1200 to 1800 rev/min                          four flats down
2000 rev/min                                      No further adjustment necessary
2200 rev/min                                      3 flats up
Rated engines no overload
(engines driving pumps or fans
and all marine propulsion engines.)        5 flats down

When I started the engine it seemed to have a more robust sound. I cranked it up and put a six inch full speed load to it and again the fuel racks abutted against the overload trip. The speeder spring pulls the racks against the overload trip and canít go any further, the flywheel weights simply shut the engine down, no stress no black smoke.
So I clamped the overload trip out of the way and tried again, the HR didnít even notice, which it shouldnít, the hydraulic registered 600 PSI and thatís only about 6 HP. The HR is, according to the manual, rated at 26 HP at 1800.
It seems to me the overload trip should be labeled the cold start overload in that when I pull it up the speeder spring snaps the racks into a full fuel position. The engine then fires at the first compression cycle and away it goes. When the rpm is high enough the overload trip snaps back down and then limits the speeder springs ability to compensate for the load.
As I mentioned before I use an air cylinder to give me a two-speed arrangement around 1200 to 1800 rpm. When I remove the air supply to the cylinder with the overload trip clamped up and manually lever the speeder spring out the spring snaps the racks to a full fuel position. The engine starts as before and settles down to the 1200 setting when I push the spring back to the idle setting.
Positive results of turning the overload stop four flats down. Is that the engine responds much better when I go from idle to full speed.
I ran some big logs through the mill at full speed and the engine handled the heavier cuts with ease The only down side to the HR is that it is quite noisy.
So whether itís right or wrong the engine is doing what I want it to do so I am inclined not to worry about it. The only thing I wonder about is that the engine is getting more fuel than it needs, although not getting any smoke.
   The air cylinder has a stop; it canít pull the engine beyond 1800 rpm so I am good there.
Title: Re: HR2
Post by: cobbadog on April 08, 2019, 06:37:57 AM
Sounds like you are winning at last with all your persistence, well done to you!

I do not know too much on diesel engines but I am led to believe it is very hard to 'over fuel' them as the pump and injectors only allow a limited amount of fuel through and if you are not getting black smoke that is a good indicator of running right, (in my mind). hopefully another member with a lot more knowledge than me can help you out here. As for the noise of the engine, we have a few old stationary hit n miss engines and the ones we have have a habit of 'barking' at you when running. Sounds great at first BUT you sit with it for a few hours and your soon looking for some head ache tablets. To resolve this I made a new muffler out of different diameter pieces of exhaust pipe. Started with a pipe flange that had the right 3/4" pipe fitting for the short 3/4" pipe that came from the head. I then welded a flat piece of steel to it to give me 4" OD. However a short piece of 2" OD pipe was welded to the inside of the flange so that the gases would travel towards the other end and was around 3" in length. Using a 4" OD pipe at 4" long I welded that to the end where the flange was and on the outside I started drilling 1/8" holes around the outer section. I worked out that I needed 12 x 1/8" holes to allow the gas out. End result was a lovely quiet engine that causes no headaches. The more you make the gases flow in opposite directions before exiting the quieter it will be so you could put a third pipe inside to make it really dizzy before exiting.
Another option is to put another muffler other than original on it and try it. Hit up a junk yard and try a small car muffler. I have also read of exhausts being run underground on stationary Lister engines and there were some plans for this on this site somewhere, but basically it was run underground to a box under ground and had gravel piled up on top, from memory.

Keep up the good work and have some fun with cutting of firewood.
Title: Re: HR2
Post by: glort on April 08, 2019, 11:53:14 AM

If a diesel is not smoking, it's not over loaded.... or even fully loaded in some cases.

 In my experience, effective exhaust Muffling is all about slowing down the gas speed so when it hits the atmosphere it does so gently and there is no straight line between the exhaust port and the end of said exhaust.

I always like to where possibly use an over size Muffler.  The bigger the muffler the less restriction and the better the noise attenuation as well.

One thing to be aware of with a lot of diesels is the intake noise can be as loud or louder than the exhaust.  This is particularly True on my China diesels.  The mufflers are quite effective  but the intake silencing is poor.  On the Ruggerinis  with the Big oil filled air cleaners, the intake noise is non existent. A new Muffler can be fitted with the air cleaner element on the end. Definitely recommend over sizing an intake muffler to avoid starving the engine for air.

The other thing is Mechanical clatter.  Aircooleds are of course the worst with this but some water cooleds aren't so great either.
Title: Re: HR2
Post by: scott p on April 13, 2019, 08:26:30 PM
Thanks for the input cobbadog and glort. It seems you both have different ways of saying the same thing. Slow the exhaust down and do that by redirecting the flow. I like the idea of fabricating a custom muffler out of exhaust pipe material. I would think it would be lighter than a regular muffler and then could be wrapped with a heat resistant material. I kind of shy away of getting to much weight on the exhaust manifold. This HR does like to vibrate. Unfortunately it is currently fitted with a simple straight pipe but as you said Glort, the mechanical noise from these old air-cooled engines is also considerable. I will probably deal with that first.
I have a ST2 that came with a good muffler and a special wrap. It is housed in a insulated shed so the mechanical noise is cut way down but the exhaust was still quite loud. When I put that wrap on, the exhaust noise fell off considerably. The ST2 runs at 1500 RPM and is belted to a 6.5 K Onan generator that I bought from a salvaged RV. I tossed the Onan engine and machined a bearing to the gen head.  The Onan has a nice feature in that it has the starter built into the generator so the prime mover does not need a starter.  These Onan RV generators are a dime a dozen on the local Graigs List and if your patient you can pick one up for a song.
The ST is one of my best buys; it offsets some of my (inexperienced, didnít really need) worst buys. The lift pump was stuffed full of junk and couldnít possibly work and the pumps needed to be primed. Other than that it started right up and runs fine no smoke. Handles a full load like a champ, very light on fuel, gota love it.
I think you raised a good point, Cobbadog, about fuel consumption with diesels. Turning the overload stop four flats down on the HR improved its performance and was per the Manuel. The governor is set to 1800 RPM. Follow the timing layout from the manual and it should be all-good. I did a sniff test of the exhaust, just a clean, light diesel smell. 
I am sorting through your explanation of how you built your muffler Gobbadog. I think if I read it enough I will get the picture.

Title: Re: HR2
Post by: cobbadog on April 15, 2019, 06:01:06 AM
I will take a pic of it on my engine and will describe it again. Wont be before tomorrow though as its out in a shed.