Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Original Lister Cs Engines => Topic started by: vegoil on October 20, 2018, 02:37:16 PM

Title: engine oil
Post by: vegoil on October 20, 2018, 02:37:16 PM
what would be the best type of engine oil to use in an original Lister CS 8/1?
I am using straight 30 at the moment. I am just looking for expert advice.

1.  straight 30 or
2.  a multi grade and fit a oil filter.
in the Lister book it recommend oil change every 500 hours which is not a long time!

Title: Re: engine oil
Post by: glort on October 20, 2018, 03:02:51 PM
what would be the best type of engine oil to use in an original Lister CS 8/1?

The cheapest multi grade Supermarket brand you can get.

That will be about 100X better than anything available when the engine was designed or even imagined when it was built.  No point getting too pedantic when any modern oil will be huge overkill for what the engine needs. :0)
A filter is not required ( or even all that helpful with the engines design)  but regular changes are advisable. With a modern oil you could probably extend the changes but it depend how you use the engine. If it's lots of short runs then i'd change it quicker. If it's started and run for hours at a time, You could probably get away with a longer period. Modern oil has many more detergents and additives than the old oil and it those that are used up and acids etc from the engine that make regular changes important.

500 hours is 2 months @ 8 hours per day. Sounds a reasonable time to me.  Myself, I'd be getting an hour meter and sticking to that.
Title: Re: engine oil
Post by: vegoil on October 20, 2018, 04:27:11 PM
thanks. I already have a hour meter.

I will have a look is the local shop for the cheapest diesel oil.

Title: Re: engine oil
Post by: glort on October 21, 2018, 01:28:36 AM

Most multigrades these days are Diesel Rated. I don't use Diesel oil in anything but my Vehicle and only then when it's on sale. Tends to be much more expensive than regular oil here even though it's often the exact same weight and specification rating.
Otherwise the castrol/ Valvoline/ Great western oils are all fine for diesels and I have certainly put many 10's of thousands of KM on the engine with those.

The car parts chain stores here have regular oil specials. It's about 1/2 price when on sale. I stock up whenever it's cheap because it's hard to pay full price after seeing it on sale so often. I think I have about 30L up the back now but one change on all our cars will nearly use that.
They are about due now  come to think of it.
Title: Re: engine oil
Post by: veggie on October 30, 2018, 01:47:01 PM

On the Lister CS engines the cylinder head (heat source) is physically very far removed from the crankcase.
Also, the oil is not circulated up to the head for valve train lubrication as in modern engines where much heat is absorbed..
The bottom of the piston and the cylinder bore are the contact points for heat in a CS (via splash lubrication).
There were times when I ran my roid for an hour and then checked the oil only to find it lukewarm.
Hence, as Glort stated, the conditions for lubrication are much different than modern engines and the Lister CS crankcases do not see the heat extremes that modern engine see. General purpose diesel lube oil should be fine. Straight 30W is very popular for CS engine users.

Title: Re: engine oil
Post by: EdDee on October 31, 2018, 08:24:20 PM
My thoughts on this....

I try not to run detergent type multigrade oils in engines with a 'true' sump, ie splash lubed with a weir below the big end falling off into the sump proper. There may be an oil pump present, and as long as it picks up oil an inch or so or more above the bottom of the sump and returns it to the weir, fine and good.... this sump will accumulate most water and metal debris, which will settle to below the oil intake. If a modern detergent additive multigrade oil is used, water and debris becomes émulsified' for want of a better term,  and remains in circulation with the oil - the modern oil is doing what it is designed to, keep the dirt in suspension until it hits the oil filter, where it can be removed... the water in suspension is handled differently, it is also held in suspension by the detergent, until the engine hits a temperature where it will start to cook off... Seldom does a lister or clone crankcase go above about 80C unless you work it hard for quite long...and then, certainly on my units, it takes a good bit of load to keep it there...

If you don't have an oil filter fitted and have a settling sump, non detergent oil is, in my opinion, the better option. If you do have an oil filter, use a detergent type oil. If you have neither a settling sump or a filter, either oil should be fine, but a more regular oil change would be in order...

As to multigrade or monograde...30W is my first choice, semitropical to tropical temperatures here... For easier starting in the frozen hells that some of you poor sods live in, well, a 10W50 or 20W40 would certainly make it a bit easier to crank in a snow blizzard...

Just my 5c worth...and probably not even worth that much anyway!

Title: Re: engine oil
Post by: glort on November 01, 2018, 01:10:50 AM

If there is one thing I DO know about it's getting water out of oil.
I have dried thousands of liter's of oil at and usually below 80oC. You don't have to boil the water to get the water out, in fact id say that actually does little extra benifit and in an enclosed space like in a crankcase where the walls are likely to be cooler, I'd suggest it could be counter productive even.

What you need to get water out of oil is air circulation. Having the oil above ambient temp is a BIG help and the hotter the better up to about boiling point.
We know the oil is well splashed around the engine and therefore exposed to the air  within so it can give up the moisture to that air but the amount of airflow is unknown to me. I know there is some and that may be enough but more is generally better.

Water in oil is also a Mystery to me. Never seen it in oil of anything I have ever worked on unless the thing had blown head gaskets or was poured in later. I know it can happen especially with short runs but the actual amount I suppose depends.

Certainly with splash lube, 80oC IMHO would be plenty to get any condensation out but it would depend on the airflow through the crankcase more than anything.

As for the debris, that is another thing.
My .05C worth is that metal deposits tend to be way over rated.
Engine loses couple of thou off the bores or bearings or whatever and it's considered pretty stuffed.  In the case of a vehicle that's easily upwards of 200K Km for the last 20 years.  If you change the oil every 5 or even 10K Km, that's 20 oil changes the thing has had the " Filings" have been distributed through.  If the thing has a filter, then it's all taken out bar any too small to matter.
If you divide the amount of powered metal an engine would produce over it's servicable life and divide that by the number of oil changes, the amount of material is going to be very low.  That said, if the metal is going through bearing surfaces....

I read and copied a great report by CAT years ago that found that  &um was the critical material size that caused almost all the wear in engines.
Anything smaller was of no consequence because it was not large enough to erode the surfaces and would be suspended in the oil film and anything larger would not fit between the critical surface tolerances to cause any damage.  They also said that changing the Filter  on a modern engine with modern oil was more important than changing the oil itself.

Modern oils still work well even when past their use by date. Dirty new oil just grinds the crap out of things.

I have always been of the opinion that clean, regularly changed oil was far more important than the type/ brand of oil used.

Also whenever I have got a new/ rebuilt motor, I change the oil 3 x by the first ( short) recommended interval.  Draining the oil into a tray where you can pan it like gold has ALWAYS demonstrated this was anything but being overly pedantic or a waste of oil by the amount of material I could see even on vehicle engines with filters after only 500 KM. 
On non filtered stationary/ mower/ pump/genny etc engines,  I thought maybe 5 hours was longer than I should have run them before the first change. 
Give them a flush with some diesel or kero and you get more metal still.

Title: Re: engine oil
Post by: 38ac on November 01, 2018, 10:59:10 AM

I have always been of the opinion that clean, regularly changed oil was far more important than the type/ brand of oil used.

In this application that is certainly true the great bulk of the time, I would only add that and engine that has been run extensively with non-detergent oils should not be switched to detergent with out a though sump cleaning.

 The fact that the well known expert out west uses and recommends gear oil is testament to the fact that just about any oily liquid in the sump will keep things revolving although I personally dont recommend the practice/
Title: Re: engine oil
Post by: glort on November 01, 2018, 02:10:29 PM

Gear oil is made for extreme pressure/ contact between surfaces. I can't see it would hurt but Winding an engine up and pulling a Dippier through that treacle on a cold morning to hand start would sure take some doing.  I doubt the  fuel consumption would be the most economical ever obtained either.

I have seen vehicles using ATF in MANUAL gearboxes and am also told some cars are now using ATF in the sump. Apparently the reasoning is the stuff is lightweight so circulates easily therefore reducing localized heating and the stuff is full of detergents and additives.

There are some Young guys on YT that do destructive testing on vehicles. Some of it is downright stupid like lets see what happens if we put handfulls of sand in the engine or drain the oil out or fill the sump with water.  I don't think you really have to test that to see the outcome.
A few things have been interesting and surprising.  They filled one sump with new cooking oil and ran out of petrol on their 200+ mile test before the engine stopped.  Engine appeared to suffer no ill effects at all.

Another one they did was dishwashing liquid. That also ran fine till they stuck a brick on the throttle and ran the thing on the rev limiter for about 12 min till the thing got so hot it caught fire and then blew up.  Who would have thought revving the shit out of it for 10 Min would make an engine fail??   ::)
There was one other surprising one I saw another mob do I now forget but driving the thing reasonably sensible if not overly thrashing it, that thing seemed to survive quite well also.

Might wear out in 10,000 miles instead of 200000 but still if you were stuck and only had veg oil in the car... you would get home without too much detriment.