Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: saba on October 06, 2018, 01:20:53 AM

Title: chp video
Post by: saba on October 06, 2018, 01:20:53 AM

This was always the plan...
Title: Re: chp video
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 06, 2018, 09:36:17 AM
Hi Saba, very nice video, lots of very expensive plumbing on that. No explanation of what most of it does. More info please.

Title: Re: chp video
Post by: saba on October 07, 2018, 11:34:07 PM
Hello Bob, To be honoust I also don't know anything about it. Project is called Olm. In germany they were/are promoting combined heat and power from the goverment. So there's a lot of subsidies and garantied feed back prices. So that fuels inovation.
I just read a few days ago even if you have a system that did 50000+ hours you can get an overhaul and get subsidies like it was new.

But of course some home build system is not intitled for support thats why it looks so professional, it is. Think it has to pass some extensive testing to get an approval.
It just one video and a few pictures so most likely it didn't ad up.
You must have seen this one Listeroid CHP european Style, for the cost of the plant you can heat your house for 5 years..

gr Bernhard
Title: Re: chp video
Post by: glort on October 08, 2018, 10:07:03 AM

Interesting Vid.
Looks like the engine and genny were the cheapest parts of the whole install.

The setup is akin to taking a Tiger moth airplane and upgrading it to fly to space.

One thing of many I found with that vid is despite the complete lack of any exhaust noise, there was still considerable clatter from the engine itself. Exhaust is usually the first thing people try to silence but I think that vid shows just how much mechanical clatter there is even on an engine that would be considered quite.

The checklist of shutdowns was both impressive and worrisome.  Good from an engine protection POV, a nightmare from a trouble shooting perspective.
If it were mine, I would try to incorporate a master kill for the kill switches. That way if the thing wouldn't run, you could determine if the problem was with the engine or just the sensors.  Been down that road before.

Iunderstand this is to a set of standards and if you are getting a rebate that covers the setup cost then no problem BUT, if you are doing it for your own satisfaction, clearly there would be a lot that could be deleted and still have goo protection in place.
The use of an EGT gauge and monitoring for one thing is complete and uttter overkill on an engine like that. Only way you are going to run into trouble with EGT's on an engine like that would be if the thing did a runaway on it's own oil and then none of the shutdowns are going to stop it anyway. If it has a cast piston, then probably going to be even more pointless.

Love to own a bit of gear like that, just wouldn't want to have to set it up and pay for it.  I think it would cost a lot more than heating my house for 5 years. To make it remotely viable, would have to cool it as well.
Title: Re: chp video
Post by: Johndoh on October 08, 2018, 10:40:20 AM
Hey Glort thats way more complicated then the control panel you suggested I make!
Title: Re: chp video
Post by: glort on October 08, 2018, 10:49:12 AM
Hey Glort thats way more complicated then the control panel you suggested I make!

You're not Kidding!

I think somewhere there is a happy medium between functionaly impressive to over kill to the point of difficulty of the owner remembering how to operate the thing.

I'm sure a measurable percentage of the power generated on that setup would go to just powering all the controls!
Title: Re: chp video
Post by: saba on October 09, 2018, 12:38:12 AM
As i understood the video, it's a bunch of guys that are enthousiasts and more or less together they did this. Involved in shipbuilding industrial machinery, sometimes you have some wrongly ordered stuff or something falls of a lorry...
Thats just stuff but the amount of time....
I have been busy with automation off the 'plant' a disaster and a fight but I managed to get somewhere. So I have a small understanding how much time this consumes even if you are a pro in that feeld.

For people interested there is so much interesting stuff to improve your setup. I started with arduino, then esp8266 and now you have the pre desessor esp32. Superpower microcontroller and fairly easy to program.
Problem with me was I got cought up with tech progression, each time there was some new chip that was better.

But for people with an interest it's really easy to read a lot of temperatures and display them somewhere easy and cheap.
The DS18B20 temperature sensor is a 1-wire digital temperature sensor. This means that you can read the temperature with a very simple circuit setup. It communicates on common bus, which means that you can connect several devices and read their values using just one digital pin of the Arduino.


Magic and cheap.

Was also busy with electronic governer, put a substantial amount of neodium magnets on the flywheel with a hallsensor to get a read out witch had some data instead of a few spokes.

Ok enough

Gr Bernhard
Title: Re: chp video
Post by: glort on October 09, 2018, 02:18:40 AM

For people interested there is so much interesting stuff to improve your setup. I started with arduino, then esp8266 and now you have the pre desessor esp32. Superpower microcontroller and fairly easy to program.

There is an internet mentality as I call it with DIY stationary engines and generators that everything has to be as basic as possible in order to make it fir the farcical ideal of " Bulletproof".

There is no such thing and I believe this ideal comes from the ignorance and sheelpe mentality of just doing what the other guy did and what the assembled masses decree fits in with the socialy approved methodology. People get tunnel visioned into that and don't look outside the interest group to see or even consider how things are done in other areas.  They just do what everyone else says  to do and does and put little thought into the ramifications of that in THEIR application or what tech is out there that is working well in other areas that can be applied.

One thing as an example I have seen lots of times is discussions of cooling. The prescribed methodology is to use thermo syphon and drum cooling over a radiator and electric fan in case the fan stops and the engine over heats.
Electric fans have been used on vehicles for 30+ years and they are not an issue despite age or Mileage.  There is no basis to believe an electric fan is any more prone to failure than a hose connecting the cooling tank to the engine. None the less, many will shun the idea as being too risky or complicated when in fact there are a great many benefits and possible advantages to a setup like that. If the risk factor was anything more than miniscule, then tens of Millions of vehicles would not be relying on them for their cooling.

To lessen the chances of problems even more, one can easily add an over temp alarm or a shut down.  Drop a hose on a cooling tank and loose all your water and that " Bullet proof" dumb system will keep going till the engine welds itself together. Not a chance of saving it. With an alarm or shutdown incorporated, the chances of saving the engine are a million times better.
Yet people will still argue that this is too "complicated and they want something simple and bulltproof.

It's a fallacy to think you can build a setup that is not going to go wrong by using the minimalist approach.  WHEN something does go wrong, it's history with no safegaurds in place.
I'm not saying there should be controls and shutdowns to the level of those shown in the vid But I certainly believe if we get our heads out the stone age and use some of the infinately reliable basic tech all around us for decades, that we can improve the setup of out systems and make them in fact a lot more Bullet proof by in fact adding some complication than having the things completely unprotected.

I think a lot of this resistance and disparaging of upgrading things is because a lot of people have so little idea about electricity. Easier to rubbisht the idea than to admit it's beyond you or that you have an inherent fear and distrust of your own abilities.... Like I do with removing the flywheels of My roid to balance them.  :0)

There is so much available so cheap now from china and as opposed to the huge amount of ignorance and again internet mentality, it is very good and reliable. It would cost bugger all to get some gauges and control boards to rig up a cooling fan that came on at a certain temp to maintain engine temp and wire the same sensor ( or another) to shut down the engine Due to over temp, low oil  level, no power being consumed for a set time, low fuel level and other things that would make the setup over all a lot better protected and controlled. The electronic throttle you mention are a great example.
Cost under $200 here where 10 years ago that level of control and accuracy would have been thousands.

It is often mentioned that interest in our game is dying and the younger ones have no affinity for it but maybe tha'ts because we make it an old farts sport.  If you look at what kids are doing with cars now and the way they make things up out of arduino etc to control them, the same thing applied to our old iron might interest a few especially if it was don'e something like Ed has been recently shown with incorporation into renewable energy applications.
From Ed's lead I have been looking at those rasberry Pi things and it's clear you could do away with most of the control's on the enginie in that vid and run it all from a raspberry with just as many sensors and an even greater level of protection and control.

How many of us old farts would be prepared to learn that new trick and apply it? So far one I know of, Ed. Surely not everyone can be as stupid and fried in the brain as I am to struggle with it and a lot of other obviously very smart people here alone could do a lot with that sort of cheap tech.  I can only imagine what bruce could do with it if he could get near it.

But coming back down a few rungs, there is still a lot we can do is straight electric controll that would improve a lot of setups and make them far more reliable and protected.  We need more a mentality of pushing the envelope and improving rather than sticking our head in the sand and trying to make thing like they were in the 30's when the engines came out.
Lets face it, even they were pushing the edge back then. A start o matic must have been like black magic back when it came out and for a long time after and still would require a bit of smarts to make a working modern equivalent.

I think the tech like shown in the vid is what we should be aspring to rather than a steadfast reluctance to employ anything more sophisticated than sticks and stones.

Title: Re: chp video
Post by: dkmc on December 11, 2018, 12:48:33 AM

My gosh that video's impressive even at low quality.
Those dudes must be data collecting hyper-geeks.
Looks like a lot of fun, but hope they didn't pay full price for some of those goodies.
I've been watching the development of the Banks Data Monster, zero affiliation.
It's primarily a monitor and data logger, I don't think there's provision for shut down.
Interesting tho, and a lot of inputs plus recording capability for under $400 I believe.
Geared toward automotive, but also discrete sensor capable.