Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Original Lister Cs Engines => Topic started by: saba on October 03, 2018, 01:39:20 AM

Title: New engine and parts from India
Post by: saba on October 03, 2018, 01:39:20 AM
Greetings lads,

I just bought the last engine untill I will sell some other thats a promise.  Few months ago I bought a 12/2 or10/2 wich was nothing but a heap of worn out parts and  rat poo.
Kept my eyes open and found a reasonably priced runner with 16/2 flywheels and magnetic aluminium pistons. According to the guy he took the top end from a just overhauled 10/2 with a broken crankshaft (30 years ago). I asked him 3 times about  the pistons yes aluminium, just checked it's some new kind of aluminium it's magnetic. Explaines why it was jumping around on the video he send me. Apparently also the cilinder heads are special the injectors are water cooled so firstdrain before you take them out.
First intention was to use it as a crankshaft donor for the other engine. but it's not that bad i gues so now I need a crankshaft and alu pistons.

Few years ago I did a fairly big order from anand india, it was really cheap but with fedexx and all the taxes it's was more then triple the price that I paid anand.
I was just wondering would it be hard to join up and order a partial container with other people in need of affordable parts. In my case I am talking about mainland europe you can pass parts on relative cheap. I think you could get parts at double the price as in India. Wich is not bad I think.

Next days I will try to upload some pictures.


Regards Bernhard
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 03, 2018, 10:17:05 AM
Hi Bernhard, My experience with Indian parts is not that good, some of it has been excellent and some absolute cr*p. The replacement crank shaft I bought was actually OK, the journals were within tolerance and it was straight to within about a thousandth of an inch. The problem I had was that, even without gaskets, There was too much end float. I had to make shims to go under the bush bearings to get anywhere near the 5 thou end float I was aiming for. I then had to elongate the locating hole in the bush bearings.

I had similar problems with Indian cam lobes that were beautifully hard and ground, but for no good reason the taper pin holes were drilled 40 thou different from the originals.

I would have no interest in importing parts to Europe as I am in Australia. I would however be interested in anyone who can have spares made to the original specifications and tolerances. India can make very good quality part, the problems lie with quality control and consistency.

Bob
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: 38ac on October 03, 2018, 12:00:48 PM
I would have stopped believing anything the fellow said after magnetic aluminum.  The water cooled injectors and the cylinder heads required for them  are of the very earliest type  fitted to a CS engine which would also explain the broken crankshaft as the early twins were plagued with that. Most, if not all were returned and updated according to  Edington's book.  I own a very early 10/2  but not as old as that one. The serial number of that engine would be of interest just to date iit. It is a nice find!

With out a doubt the India parts situation is hit and miss but for us in the states NOS Lister parts are not an option unless money means nothing. Certain dealers will sell you high dollar "genuine parts" that were produced at  the R A Lister India division that no body else knew about.  You can trust India MICO brand fuel injection equipment, piston rings,  valves, gaskets sets as long as you avoid the cheapest of cheap as it appears that it is recovered from reject hoppers. I will state that I have never personally received any junk parts  from Lovson and that Gary at DES will make right any junk that escapes undetected.   
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 03, 2018, 12:30:05 PM
Magnetic aluminium? That would be a very interesting alloy ideal for manufacturing generator stators. I vaguely remember an episode of Star Trek that featured transparent aluminium. What ever next?  :laugh:

Curious about the water cooled, early, injectors. Wonder if they could be used in reverse to heat veg or WMO prior to injection.

Bob
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 03, 2018, 12:40:16 PM
I recently dug out my old cast iron Lister piston to check dimensions before ordering a replacement. Interestingly it was covered in iron fillings which were stuck to it because it had some magnetism. I doubt this would be a good or deliberate attribute as it would attract all the sh!t in the crank case and cause premature failure.

Bob
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: glort on October 03, 2018, 01:01:01 PM
Curious about the water cooled, early, injectors. Wonder if they could be used in reverse to heat veg or WMO prior to injection.


Bob, if there is only ever one thing you believe in what I say, believe heating oil for engines is a complete and utter Nonsense.
I know, it's a fundamental base principal of the SVO world. And it is WRONG!

Next time you fire up your engine, run it under load for 10 Min and then grab the injector. You'll soon see why you do not need to heat the oil going into or through it.

Quote
I doubt this would be a good or deliberate attribute as it would attract all the sh!t in the crank case and cause premature failure.

I'm not so sure....
They would likley stick to the underside of the piston and they would be wiped off the sides if they got there and they are not going to do any damage underneath the piston unlike floating round in the sump.  Given the level of oil turbulence, I'm not sure they would stick anywhere other than to a strong magnet in the sump.
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 03, 2018, 01:08:39 PM
Hey Buddy, I wasn`t thinking of heating the oil, I was thinking of heating a cold injector to make starting easier, a bit like a glow plug.

Magnetism might have some advantages, what about additives like molybdenum, would they adhere better to a magnetized piston?

Bob

Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: glort on October 03, 2018, 01:36:56 PM
Magnetism might have some advantages, what about additives like molybdenum, would they adhere better to a magnetized piston?


I wish I was smart and educated enough to answer that Question!  :-[
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: saba on October 03, 2018, 01:49:41 PM
Ok this is the magnetic piston engine, of course the pistons are cast iron I just stuck a magnet threw the door to check. I'll upload some more later.

About the India parts, I now part of it is crap but there's not much of choise. It's just an Indian crankshaft for a 2 cilinder in england is 450 pounds and in India 190 dollar.
If you could order together maybe you can keep the cost down a bit.

Anyway I'll think will leave the engine alone for now better finish some other first.

Bernhard
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 03, 2018, 02:37:50 PM
Hey Bernhard, I hate to point out the blindingly obvious but they are both made in the same place: India, so the difference in price is all down to delivery, storage and profit.
I would think about ordering all the parts in one go to reduce the delivery charges. A while back one of the the forum members did a very good restoration after ordering all the parts direct from India. (DEV Precision, I think). They were reasonable on price, quality and delivery charges. I have found Gary at DES in the USA to be honest, reasonably priced and helpful. I also use Rob at Old Timer Engines in Australia, he has a large stock of used parts that are very reasonably priced.

Do your own research, don`t trust what you read on forums or anywhere else.

Bob
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: dieselspanner on October 03, 2018, 04:35:04 PM
I've used Devprecision and mostly it was bloody good. I had a problem and there was a lack of communication so I drew their attention to a post on here and it turned out they had 'been on holiday'....... anyway the dodgy injector pump and the wrong bearings were included in my next order, promptly and free of charge.

From the Pyrenees I could order Sunday night, my time, pay a Paypal invoice Monday morning and the Fedex truck arrived on Friday., I did it three or four times.

The taper roller main bearing carriers were incorrectly machined but I got around that by attacking the bearings themselves with the 4" angle grinder, the aluminium 8/1 piston and rings were great. same bump clearance as the original iron Lister one.

Both the Injector and the pump were coated inside and out with some sort of preservative that wouldn't yield to diesel so I had to strip them down, other than that no real complaints.

As I recall the freight wasn't too scary either.

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: saba on October 03, 2018, 05:25:51 PM
I should have a look at the old invoice but I also ordered two cilinder blocks and a crankshaft, that ways a ton. I holland you also pay import tax and vat on transportation costs. It was 3 times as the original price I recall. And the cilinder blocks were scrap.

I will see if I can still find it.

Bernhard
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: saba on October 03, 2018, 06:46:36 PM
Just a few pics,

Bernhard
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: broncodriver99 on October 03, 2018, 07:37:00 PM
That is one heavy looking pulley.
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: Johndoh on October 03, 2018, 08:43:57 PM
So what happens if a bunch of people buy into say half a 40 foot container of parts from India and they find 20 ton of junk in the docks? There would be no returns or comeback dead money IMO
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: saba on October 03, 2018, 10:00:41 PM
Gooday, just had a look for my old order. It was 635 dollar on parts , 127 kg, 737 dollar in transport and I have to pay import tax and vat on the total. Actually was not that bad if I see it now.

Asked for a quote of the crankshaft for a 12/2,  is $193  and $352 for transport.  So $545 times the tax is over $700. More than three times the initial amount. 

For this 12/2 ratpoo engine thats to much together with rebushing the cilinder blocks and the rest.....Better bring it away for scrap.

I asked for freight tarifs by sea 1m3 box 350kgs 1000euro approx, needed to fill in the figures to get a price so made some figures up, I guess its the volume that makes the price weight does not affect it as much. Door to door.
I could fill the box with 30 crankshafts and have 33euro transport cost for each crankshaft and I pay tax for (193+33) times 1.3 approx .

Ok thats my point I gues most of the people here are from other continents, but maybe there are people more in the neighbourhood.


Just an idea

Regards Bernhard
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: Johndoh on October 03, 2018, 10:33:01 PM
I am from Ireland so parts for lister engines or parts aren't that hard to get. I'd be wary of buying a pig in a poke
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: saba on October 03, 2018, 11:41:46 PM
You don't happen to have a crankshaft laying around.....
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: Johndoh on October 03, 2018, 11:48:50 PM
Nothing for a CS but you can buy a running 6/1 for about 400.00 in the UK, postage, paperwork and red tape would be horrifying. Did you try diesel g man on this site he sells diesel engines and parts he might even have some NOS engines
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: saba on October 04, 2018, 12:24:15 AM
Hey John, I know about the Uk I've bought my first two overthere. Here in holland it's a bit all or nothing most of the time there's nothing for sale and all of a sudden there's three at once. Thats also the reason I have to much engines. There is no demand so if it is a steal I cannot help myself.
When I was realy looking there was zip in holland for more then a year so I turned to ebay and by accident bought two. (i learned about auto bidding). Went to the Uk with my trailer and then the fun started.

Also for folks interested sometimes there are also JP engines for sale for almost free(ok my opinion). If somebody is interested I can pas the information on or just put it here on the forum.
Ok just had a look JP4 30 km from my house 1250 in euro's if you bid 750 you got it.

But fact remains if I order the parts from india by airmail it would be an absurd expensive engine.
If you find say 5 people in a 400km radius around you and every february of the year you can place your orders. When it is in the continent after that you can ship it around tax free.
I think I would have a 200/300 dollar order each year if I had the chance.

But if somebody is into jp engines there is at least 3 or so for sale each year and nobody is bidding. And just hear the sound. Amazing.

Greetings Bernhard
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: saba on October 12, 2018, 01:41:56 AM
Just thinking to start taking apart the 16/2, doesn't take much time and it will reduce the weight a bit, need to move it to a new location promptly.
I'll post some pictures off the disection.

Another thing I was thinking about a high pressure cleaner with sandblasting, anyone experiance with it...
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 12, 2018, 11:34:14 AM
Pressure washer is a great tool for cleaning old engines, a sand blaster is not! The one thing you are trying to avoid when rebuilding any sort of engine is abrasives. Yes it will do a great job of removing old paint, rust and etc but you will have to put in the hours after to ensure total cleanliness, before reassembly. I think it`s quicker and safer to use degreaser and a pressure washer.

Bob
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: saba on October 13, 2018, 12:09:31 AM
Hey hello, I meant you have like an add on for your highpressure cleaner so you suc up grid and blast it with the water.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y9sXOe8Rz4

At least it doesn't give the mess.

I spend a lot of time with my VA to get it in  a ready to paint state. I didn't think about it at that time..
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: glort on October 13, 2018, 01:58:22 AM

I don't think sandblasting is too much of a worry on a disassembled engine.
Can't think of anything that would really trap the grit that couldn't be washed out with a pressure washer with just water afterwards.
The heavy crap is likley to be on the outside of the engine anyway, mainly the caseing.

The other alternative is if you have the engine disassembled, just send the parts you want cleaned off for hot tanking.  This strips everything back bare and is what engine reconditioners use.
You could also use Soda with one of those blasters instead of sand or other media like walnut or apricot shells.

having a look at those attachments on Fleabay there are a good amount of Cheaper alternatives that should do just as  good a job. I am interested in getting one for cleaning stonework the water alone won't do. I have an 8Hp petrol pressure washer so I'm not going to get much more grunt than that so maybe I need to put something a bit more aggressive in the thing than just water.
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: saba on January 07, 2019, 12:41:19 AM
16-2 magnetic piston update.

I need to trim the engine down for weight a bit to move it to my new location and I am curious what to find......first some pictures...

Bernhard
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: saba on January 07, 2019, 01:20:17 AM
Ok here the update,

I've been busy with my new garage put a 65m2 atic in it and now slowly moving my stuff overthere. Most of my engines are allready there. The 16-2 is a bit heavy for the old trailer and I was really anxious to have a look inside...
So took the heads of with the watercooled injectors, didn,t open that yet, and had a look inside the cilinder. Could clearly see where the piston rings been sitting for years explaines why the guy filled the engine with oil to get some compression. So far so good.
Took the first piston out, big end bearing worn out pretty much, Thats a funny piston.......... especially the scraper ring tsss...
Ok next block.. I could not get the piston out...the big end is bigger than the bore of the liner... Took them of together. On the crankshaft you can see the imprint of the bearings this engine has been sitting for  many years.

So on one cilinder a piston with a scraper ring that has enourmous play, you can almost fit two, the other piston they left it out. I have the feeling it's a prehistoric cs piston that didn't use scraper rings ?. I have two different piston rods with one not passing the bore.

At least the crankshaft looks in a reasonable shape, 2 flywheels. Should be able to build something out of this.

If somebody has ideas about the pictures and the parts I really like to hear the opinions and ideas.

Greaatings Bernhard


Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: saba on January 07, 2019, 01:21:50 AM
pictures
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 07, 2019, 10:17:12 AM
Hi Bernhard, welcome back and congratulations on your new building, wish I had one.

If you look very carefully at the photo of the cylinder (first photo), it looks like this cylinder may have a wet liner in it. these can be easily pressed out and a new one installed. this will save you a lot of money on machining and etc.

Looks overall like it has done a lot of work and had long periods in between when water, condensation and the byproducts of combustion have eaten into the cylinder liners.

The tops of the pistons look to be corroded and pitted as well, the sides of the pistons and also the cylinders show a lot of scoring,

Bearing shells are past praying for but as long as the crank journals are OK you should be able to get it running without too much expense. Doubt the miss matched con rods would help with the balance.

Looks to me like this is a typical case of casting sand migrating into the oil and causing premature failure. Recommend you strip it and clean the inside before you consider rebuilding.

Bob
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: saba on January 07, 2019, 12:36:04 PM
Hey Bob did you notice the freeze plug in the bottem of the  cilinder block. I was also looking at the liners, that would be nice if they are wet liners. Size is 115.6mm liner and 115.4 piston. standard is 114mm so somebody been busy with it.
Some strange parts in this engine.

Bernhard
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 07, 2019, 11:16:50 PM
Hi Bernhard, I hadn`t noticed the freeze plug, the mystery deepens. On original CS engines the cylinder bore extends past the bottom flat face of the cylinder block by more than half an inch, yours appears to be flush. I am concerned that the bottom oiler rings on the piston will be very close to exiting the cylinder altogether at BDC.

115.6 mm is about 60 thou oversize, I have never heard of anyone making a plus 60 thou piston. The standard cylinder is 4 1/2 inch (114.32 mm), the next larger standard size would be 4 5/8 inch (117.5mm) Please see repair liner PDF attached.

I guess that who ever did the modifications knows some things we don`t.

Bob
Title: Re: New engine and parts from India
Post by: saba on January 09, 2019, 01:51:47 AM
Posted a picture from the water cooled injector head, A picture of the rods with pistons, put a normal piston in the middle for the contrast. One rod is wider at the big end, but if you tilt it it passes the cilinder.

And Bob you got a good point with the scraper ring, should do some measuring.
To be honoust I am totally not familliar with all the oversizes, has also to do with the inch/mm thing. But I have some cilinder blocks lying around that are a lot bigger then standard.

With these blocks(of this one) and pistons I have the feeling it is very early type, the guy also tried to sell me the old injectors with the push pin on the top.

i think I will move it to his new location and save the rest of the fun for a later time. Still got a lot of work to do in the new location, busy with heating now to make it more comfortable to be overthere.

And again if somebody has smart ideas distilled from the pictures I am all ears.

Bernhard