Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: Offgrid1 on October 01, 2018, 03:49:14 AM

Title: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: Offgrid1 on October 01, 2018, 03:49:14 AM
Hi, I'm new to the forum, and Listeroid ownership. Recently this engine and generator head was for sale on Craigslist. For once the opportunity and the finances aligned, and miraculously it was less than an hour away. I would have far preferred an original Lister CS, but this engine has been only briefly run, periodically, and was within reach. It started right up, and since there was a list of interested buyers (I was first) I paid the asking price. It comes with extra OEM Metro parts, but no manual. If anyone has a manual, or knows where to locate one please pm me. I'll provide more pictures as the project progresses.
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: BruceM on October 01, 2018, 05:40:03 AM
Good find!
I'm not sure what the "premium" stands for.  My older Metro 6/1 is a Listeroid; the head is modified to eliminate 2 bolts, the sump is modified to be a single sump, splash lube only.  It has been the prime mover/air compressor for my off grid homestead for the last 10 years.

I wonder if Metro made true CS clones and called them "premium"?

Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: mike90045 on October 01, 2018, 06:46:24 AM
I'll have to look at the label on mine to see.

Beware, many of the clones have internal casting sand in the crankcase
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: 38ac on October 01, 2018, 12:27:58 PM
Hello and welcome to the LEF,
As for the manuals the India supplied manual is most valuable to kindle a fire and a Lister CS manual is of limited use due to the many changes made to the India engines.  However if you desire an India manual I can send you one providing you are either in the USA or willing to pay postage.  I have several OEM Lister manuals but none I care to part with. They are downloadable from a few sources last I knew one of them being The Internal Fire Museum. You must join the site to have access to the manuals. Send me a PM if you desire.

As far as I have been able to determine  premium as applied to Metro branded engines means the engine has extra cost accessories included. Might be a starter or water pump or oil pump all or any combination of them. It does not mean the engine was assembled with any more care or any less sand than any other Metro,, at least in my experience. I haven ever seen a Metro branded engine that was a clone or close copy of a CS, all are roller bearing splash lubricated,  5 stud classic "listeroids"

The test for sand  is easy, pull the crankcase door and drain the oil. Then run your finger around in the bottom of the crankcase checking for grit and once found you have a choice to make. Just remember that it does not need to be 1/2" deep to destroy the engine. If you find ANY sand or slag it will do a number on the engine, the only variable pertaining to quantity is  how long it takes to destroy the moving parts.
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: mike90045 on October 01, 2018, 04:01:55 PM
premium = washed the salt out of the beach sand before using it.
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: old seagull man on October 01, 2018, 04:15:34 PM
Now that's a little harsh, i know for a fact, small children sieve the sand first.  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: 38ac on October 01, 2018, 05:14:01 PM
, or extra metal flake in the paint ;D
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: dieselspanner on October 01, 2018, 06:29:11 PM
Offgrid

Don't be disheartened by the replies, they're all correct, but there's more than enough information on this forum for you get to grips with every aspect of the Metro.

They're all simple, be it a CS or a clone, some common sense and a couple of evenings reading through the WOK - Wall Of Knowledge - and searching the various categories will get you through.

If all else fails, post up, remember, there's no such thing as a stupid question, mostly!!

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: broncodriver99 on October 01, 2018, 08:05:33 PM
Nice find. I have a couple of manuals I can email you. They are original lister manuals so some of the info will be useless for the Metro. I may have a PDF of an Indian manual, lemme dig around a bit.
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: mikenash on October 02, 2018, 06:21:28 AM
this may help?
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: BruceM on October 02, 2018, 11:10:30 AM
Sump wiping is one way of looking for sand, but another easy way to is to look at the upper main bearing shell. If you see scratches, and embedded particles, you've got sand.

If the engine is expected to perform long reliable service, treating any listeroid or CS clone as a kit of parts to be fully disassembled, inspected and the crankcase to be stripped and refinished is the best practice.  It's a simple engine and doing it once, right, is not that big of a chore.  38ac's written a wonderful guide that makes it much easier.  Everyone who has stripped and/or ground the crankcase interior has found a great deal of sand just painted over.  Generic red electrical varnish (aka Glyptal) in spray cans is inexpensive and makes a very nice, durable crankcase interior finish.




Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: 38ac on October 02, 2018, 12:12:01 PM
Offgrid

Don't be disheartened by the replies,

Cheers
Stef

I guess that I can see where that type of thought pattern could come about. If  I have disheartened by  informing of the short comings of India engine ownership I will state here that was not the intent. None the less what I have said is factual.   

Let's try this,,,

Offgrid1
There is a marked difference between right, and right enough as it pertains to an engine assembly. India quality controls are to assemble the engine, start it with "flushing oil" and let it run a minute or two,  drain the flushing oil and whatever sand ,slag and metal chips drain with it, and ship it.  therefore almost every Indian engine is/was right enough to  start and run when it left India and when received here.

But there is a catch, Running for 10 minutes doesnt mean the engine is OK. The crankcase could have a quart of loose  sand dumped in it and it will run for a 15 minutes or so, a hand full it may run for an hour or two. A teaspoon full will take longer.  Point being that over the long haul (in spite of what some would hope to believe) no engine will tolerate any amount of abrasive particles floating around with the lubricating oil.  Does your engine have enough sand floating around to be destroyed in 1/2 hour?  1 hour?  10 hours?  or 100 hours?  No way for anyone here to know including me. But to say there is a chance that it is clean would be a BIG stretch, personally I have never seen it.

  Because engine parts and pieces cost money I prefer to look instead of crossing my fingers and  installing the starting handle,,but that just me ;)
 
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: Offgrid1 on October 02, 2018, 04:57:32 PM
Thank you all for your input! I can now see that this is going to be more complicated than just plug and play, which was the sales pitch I made to my better half (who is not very pleased with me presently) I think the best way to look at it is that it will be a 6hp, slow speed,  water cooled diesel. With the recommended effort to rid it of internal abrasives, and going through and correcting free play etc. Among the spares was an open gasket set, which I am hoping (dreaming) might indicate that some or all of the cleanup has been done. Of course as soon as I purchased it an 8hp Witte came up for sale! I will still be on the hunt for a true Lister CS, preferably SOM, and not from Portugal!

Regards, Dave

P.S. I will follow up with more pictures
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: dieselspanner on October 02, 2018, 05:50:56 PM
Hey Butch!

My post wasn't intended to discredit yours, as I said of the replies, 'they're all correct' and I then made reference to all the information on the forum which will enable anyone to complete a rebuild with the minimum of hassle. If I offended you - or anyone else, for that matter I apologise profusely.

It's hard to read an email or a post and get the flavour of the writers intent I know, mostly from offending others! and the slant of my last one was definitely meant to be read in a positive and encouraging manner.

Cheers
Stef

Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: Barenburg on October 02, 2018, 06:36:03 PM
Mine wasn't a Metro, but I did consider it a kit engine and I'm glad......  Upon disassembly I found no loose sand in the crankcase, but probably took a 1/4 cup of sand out just poking around near the tappets.  I completely strippesd the castings cleaned, sanded and filled exterior porosity with bondo prior to applying 4 coats of epoxy paint.......

All the cleaning, blueprinting etc is part of the fun......

All the best!
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: 38ac on October 03, 2018, 12:03:13 AM
Was not taken that way at all Stef! All is good :laugh:
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 03, 2018, 10:49:12 AM
Hi Dave and welcome to the forum. I very strongly advise you to follow the wisdom dispensed by 38ac. Strip it clean it, get the sand out of it, seal the inside with something that won`t break down in oil. I found casting sand in my Dursley Lister, 60 years after it was made, the only reason it hadn`t caused a problem was that they sealed the inside of the crankcase with a red paint that was still in place.

If, when you dismantle your Roid you find scoring on the crank journals this can probably be safely polished out. The white metal bearings can not be salvaged as they are now impregnated with abrasive material which is impossible to remove. Toss the bushes/bearings fit new ones be totally anal about cleanliness during assembly, Flush out the sump before starting and you should be good for years to come.

Bob
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: glort on October 03, 2018, 01:42:47 PM

I think my roid is a " Premium" Model.
It has/had all the faults available..... Sand in the crank case, non rotating lifters, unbalanced flywheels.... and that's only what I have seen so far. I'll bet there are other things to do with the cam gear alignment and all the other common problems as well. Mine is an Imperial.  I think the difference between  all the brands is the name on the crankcase cover. 

They must go to extra effort to get all the faults in a particular machine. Laws of probability would dictate you only got half on average if it was left to chance!
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 03, 2018, 02:54:06 PM
Will you cut it out. There`s only room for one whingeing Pomie B*stard around here. That said you could be right, it takes an enormous amount of effort and ineptitude to produce a Listeroid in which nothing is right and everything is wrong. Recommend you ship it to 38ac, he likes a challenge.

Yes, I am ducking already, expecting a barrage of abuse and heavy tools coming my way.  :laugh:

Bob
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: Offgrid1 on October 03, 2018, 10:18:53 PM
Since I will be tearing this beast down completely; is it possible to add an oil pump, or has anyone here tried it. I would be much more confident in the long run if the engine were pressure lubricated. Even though the word "Premium" is written with raised letters in the crankcase casting, it seems that the only premium feature is the extra vee belt pulley and a water pump. Thoughts anyone?
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: BruceM on October 04, 2018, 03:08:22 AM
With a Listeroid you are stuck with splash lube only.  The sump has been changed so you can't just add the oil pump back in.  I suggest my ''sock in a box'' gravity fed bypass filter box just inside the big crankcase door.  Massive oil flow down that door due to the dipper. 

There's nothing wrong with the splash lube with the tapered roller bearing mains- that aspect of the Listeroid works well and no one has ever reported a lube related failure.  I like the utter simplicity of splash lube.






Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 04, 2018, 11:54:59 AM
Hi Offgrid1, I`m with BruceM on this, splash lubrication is more than adequate. Even on the original CS engines there was no pressurized lubrication, as you would expect in a modern engine. The oil pump just lifts oil and squirts it into a weir above the crankshaft bush bearings, after that it`s all down to gravity. I believe that some more recent Roids have pressurized oil flow but I doubt that is an improvement on the simplicity of the originals.

Bob
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: 38ac on October 04, 2018, 11:55:53 AM
Glad you have decided to take it down. It's really not that daunting unless one is very uncomfortable with a wrench in his hand.  Biggest challenge is usually the flywheel Gibb keys. If a suitable puller is used FIRST (instead of after the heads are messed up by bodge methods) they will come free.

The oil pump's role in a CS type can easily be misunderstood. None of the CS types are pressure lubed even when they have an oil pump.  The oil pump in a CS or clone serves two purposes, it supplies oil from the lower sump to the  bushing type mains after which the oil runs into the upper shelf in the sump where the dipper on the connecting rod picks it up and splash lubes the rest of the internal workings. The excess oil in the upper sump overflows into the lower sump.   Thus in the original design the lower sump can virtually empty yet the engine will still be fully lubricated as long as there is enough oil to keep the upper sump near full.

Several things for you to consider prior to going to all the effort and cost of adding an oil pump, this is assuming your engine is similar  to the handful of Metro engines I have had my fingers inside of.
A- Your Metro has tapered roller main bearings not bushings and they are happy with what ever oil gets splashed on them.
B- The Metro does not have the second shelf in the crankcase thus lubrication is dependent on proper oil levels being maintained.
C- Go on with your build without an oil pump. When you get it running again start it up and let it run for a minute or two. Shut it down and quickly remove the crankcase door (warning have plenty of rags handy)  take a look inside and decide if any additional oiling is needed, ;D
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: 38ac on October 04, 2018, 11:57:18 AM
Sorry Bob,
You inserted that reply while I was two finger typing up mine.

The lone pressure lubricated engine type that I am aware of is the high speed short crankcase versions sold as the GM90 by Satyajeet  or LG series by Lovson and likely others i have never seen.
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 04, 2018, 12:16:28 PM
Apology accepted, although you have nothing to apologize for.  I should perhaps apologize to you for suggesting Glort send his Roid to you for repairs.  :laugh:

Typing slowly is not a crime and allows one to think before typing. I wish some keyboard warriors would do the same. It also emphasizes how much effort you put into your posts on the WOK. Thank you.

Bob
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: Offgrid1 on October 04, 2018, 01:15:13 PM
Thank you for good advice and solid logic. In addition to all of the reasons stated for not using pressure lubrication, which in fact was more accurately pump assisted splash lubrication in the first place, is that this is a stationary engine. I don't think I need to be concerned about oil starvation because of operating at an angle (e.g.. hillside). Simple is better.
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: 38ac on October 04, 2018, 04:16:17 PM
Going back and looking over old postings on the subject I think that the guys were trying to fix sand problems with oil pumps. Many rod bearings were wiped out a few hours and it was speculated that they were not getting enough oil so things like hollow dippers and oil pumps were thrown at the problem.  One poster announced that  the real issue was the holes on top of the big end of the rod  because they let sand in the bearing and promptly went on the hunt for solid top shells. India was glad to respond to the request and added oil pumps to a few specially ordered  single sump, roller bearing engines where functionaly they did nothing,  but they did allow the owner a claim of the fact. 

Make no mistake about it  I appreciate what the guys were trying to get done on a dime and in an engine shed. My reason for posting is so that nobody goes towards thinking that ended up being wrong, it is  not to demean those pioneers as their hind sight is as good as mine, 20/20
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: BruceM on October 04, 2018, 09:18:54 PM
I remember the move to hollow dippers; it was in the era when I was new to Listeroids.  Several off us, including Jack Beck (Hotater) noticed a spalling failure of the upper bearing shells; the area was right at the impact point for power stroke.  The white metal would flake off in that area. This lead to the hollow dippers in an attempt to increase oil to the upper bearing, and with hollow dippers, the grooves in the upper shell where counter productive to maintaining a oil film.  It had nothing to do with sand damage, which is quite distinctive and obvious.

In hindsight, I suspect that G. Breckenridge and other importers had gotten a batch of poor quality bearing shells, and this was fundamental cause of the spalling of the upper bearing shell. I did have spalling after the dipper, but not after putting in the new solid upper bearing. I haven't tried going back to grooved upper bearings.


Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: 38ac on October 04, 2018, 10:36:44 PM
Ooops, I should have refreshed myself on those old postings prior referancing them. Most of the learning curve was accomplished prior to my arrival on the scene.

Bad batch of India parts?? Impossible ;D
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: Matt12 on October 26, 2018, 06:17:32 AM
premium = washed the salt out of the beach sand before using it.
It's not every day you get free 'lapping compound' with your new engine.
Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: Matt12 on October 26, 2018, 06:27:42 AM
Hello and welcome to the LEF,
As for the manuals the India supplied manual is most valuable to kindle a fire and a Lister CS manual is of limited use due to the many changes made to the India engines.  However if you desire an India manual I can send you one providing you are either in the USA or willing to pay postage.  I have several OEM Lister manuals but none I care to part with. They are downloadable from a few sources last I knew one of them being The Internal Fire Museum. You must join the site to have access to the manuals. Send me a PM if you desire.

As far as I have been able to determine  premium as applied to Metro branded engines means the engine has extra cost accessories included. Might be a starter or water pump or oil pump all or any combination of them. It does not mean the engine was assembled with any more care or any less sand than any other Metro,, at least in my experience. I haven ever seen a Metro branded engine that was a clone or close copy of a CS, all are roller bearing splash lubricated,  5 stud classic "listeroids"

The test for sand  is easy, pull the crankcase door and drain the oil. Then run your finger around in the bottom of the crankcase checking for grit and once found you have a choice to make. Just remember that it does not need to be 1/2" deep to destroy the engine. If you find ANY sand or slag it will do a number on the engine, the only variable pertaining to quantity is  how long it takes to destroy the moving parts.


38AC,

          Just wanted to commend you on your cam timing- valve lash article of a few years ago, did you end up with more info on Roid camshafts, I have always thought the relationship between the inlet lobe and the injection lobe to be the most important for making power without smoke. 
  Apparently the Indians aren't alone in their haphazard approach to valve timing, I have read an interesting article on a popular Italian sports motorcycle, where the as installed cam timing can be all over the shop, usually retarded from factory specs, sometimes up to 15 deg.

Also do they still just press the crankshaft timing gear on the Listeroid with no key to locate it, I suppose it would only end up about half a tooth out anyway.
Thanks very much for your good work ferreting out the info on cam timing and related info.

Matt.

Title: Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
Post by: 38ac on October 26, 2018, 11:45:16 AM
As I stated in my write up most engine builders would agree that  the intake opening point and exhaust closing point are the most important factors in valve timing.  I have not tried to make science out of the crank gear positioning. One  would assume there is a jig but maybe they just slap them on?  None including the original Listers had  a key that I am aware of.  Like everyone else I get a bit smarter with each one of the Indian engines that passes under my fingers, but so far I have found that bent camshafts, not placement of the gear or lobes is the primary reason for timing deficiencies.  One has to play with a degree wheel and indicator  to realize how much a slightly bent camshaft affects valve timing.