Lister Engine Forum

How to / DIY => Engines => Topic started by: fraggie on September 18, 2018, 03:16:02 PM

Title: Are there...
Post by: fraggie on September 18, 2018, 03:16:02 PM
Any modified injectors available for lister/petter engines? I own a lister lt1
i found a german site that has vegetable oil injectors for vw and mercedes,
it made me wonder if there are any for single or 2 cilinder stationairy engines..
would make running a direct injection on WVO a lot easier..
website is http://www.monopoel.de/catalog/kca17s42-plus-dn0sd297-p-1120.html
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: glort on September 18, 2018, 11:44:30 PM

I have run veg oil in vehicles and engines for 15 years. I have never seen a problem with an engine with a mechanical injector pump Running clean, Dry Veg oil.  And that is the key right there, Clean and Dry.

If you look at those kits and components for running veg there is a Hidden catch...... they recommend and only guarantee performance when running NEW or extremely lightly used oil.  When it comes to the normal level of used oil most people get which is where it is no longer suitable for cooking food, all bets are off.

Some of these injectors boast Hight Crack off pressures. That is a misnomer to think this will spray better. The pressures are so high already they are adding a few percent if that to crack point and it's the Nozzle that makes the difference not the crack pressure above what it already was  meant to be.
I have reservations if these Nozzles are in fact any different otherwise. These people sellinging them I don't think are getting specially drilled nozzles as that is a major manufacturing setup and expense and I could not see demand justifying the machinery let alone the R&D that would be required for each Nozzle.

There was a guy came here years ago from a company that did veg Kits and I could see very little different to the setup than what people normally did with conversions. The whole thing with the " Jump in, turn the key and drive off on veg oil" was the fact that one was supposed to use new oil. That is chalk and cheese to running most USED oil.  If Veg is very cheap where you are and you don't mind paying less over diesel then you'll definately have no problems with a stock standard setup operating as it should ( ie, not worn out or dirty). If you want to run used oil, then I would say these " Modified" components offer no benifit over the stock ones.  Again more is going to depend on how well you clean and dry the fuel than anything else.

Most people do not dry the oil thinking that as long as there is not water in the bottom it's good. It's NOT.
Veg oil is hygroscopic and can hold a LOT of water in suspension. While Pouring gallons of water into your Diesel veg fueled engine has a lot of benefits, it's one thing to put it in the intake and another to put it through the fuel system.  Undried oil gives significantly less easy starting and much lower performance than oil that has had the dissolved water removed. It is also important to have dry oil when running it through your Injector pump, injector and fuel system overall.

IMHO. you would be better off just making sure your pump and injector was where they should be and using new, standard components than what would be mis spent money on these other components and making sure your fuel is Filtered to at least 5Um and dried sufficiently to exceed passing a Hot pan test.  By this I mean you should have your oil dry enough so you can mix 2-3 Drops of water in a cupful and it will still pass a hot pan.

Does not matter how you put it in the engine, if the fuel is substandard, all other performance factors will be as well.
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: old seagull man on September 19, 2018, 07:14:46 AM
Mr Glort :Sir.

Would you consider writing a short Primer, on the basic,s of using WVO, and other waist Oils , WMO perhaps, if this is in your area of expertise.?
 Me like many new to this board and the whole Lister, and Clone, world are over run with misinformation, and dis information. On this subject.
And a real guide to what can be done. as opposed to what "people" say can be done would help many.

If my zs195 cold run on wvo, or wmo, generating power for fun would at least be economically "free".

Andrew
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: glort on September 19, 2018, 08:30:33 AM

Andrew, Nothing I write is ever short!  :0)

There certainly is a LOT of misinformation out there no question.  As i have said many ti9mes, it's because people copy one another rather than do their own testing.  It seems everyone is so terrified of making a mistake and Ruining their engine that they don't even think what they are doing through.

I'd be happy to write something for you and others whom may be interested in this but could you give me a few pointers as to any specifics you want to know?  I have been doing this so long it just seems second nature to me and I know it's easy to overlook the most basic things that are not easy to find when you are starting out.

It's really a fairly extensive subject. It's easy to say do or don't do this but as soon as you start to explain why so people understand WHY they should or should not do it, Things do get a bit more lengthy.
I did have a lot of stuff written out years ago but that has long been lost many HDD crashes ago.
None the less, if people are interested, I'll give it my best shot at information and brevity.
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: EdDee on September 19, 2018, 08:51:51 AM
+1
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 19, 2018, 09:24:24 AM
Hey Glort, make it as long winded and detailed as you like, there are still some of us that want to learn.  :)

Sadly not everything I want to know is on Google, the real knowledge and experience is stored in people heads, a great deal of it in the heads of people who are not good communicators. You may be the exception, please feel free to enlighten us.

Bob
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: dieselspanner on September 19, 2018, 10:18:52 AM
Glort,

Start a whole new thread and we'll ask Ade nicely if it can go on the WOK.

Cheers
Stef

Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 19, 2018, 11:44:54 AM
Got to agree with Stef, bring it on!  :laugh: Maybe your next calling is to publish a book about how to avoid paying the government and big corporations for what you can have for nothing, should p1ss off those wealthy, entitled b*stards enormously.

Bob
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 19, 2018, 12:22:47 PM
Just a thought Glort,( I`m a poet and I didn`t know it) my CS should be completed in about a month, the shed for it may take a little longer. It will be available for testing after that. If you would like to make recommendations, I am happy to implement them and post the results with pics.

Bob
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: old seagull man on September 19, 2018, 12:38:48 PM
My ZS 195 is running and awaiting its generator. And i'd be willing to feed  it some fryer oil.
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 19, 2018, 01:01:31 PM
Good on you OSM, lets hope Glort comes through with the manual on how to do it. I`ve got to be a little diplomatic because I`m fairly sure he has my phone number and will call me to tell me what a nasty, manipulative C U Next Tuesday I am. That said we need his input and experience so bring it on!


Bob
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: glort on September 19, 2018, 01:52:42 PM
I have started on my novel but a thought came to mind.

Would you all be interested in an overall veg tutorial with information on running vehicles on veg or just limit my rantings to Stationary/ industrial engines?
For the literaly challenged, excluding vehicles will shorten it a fair bit but might be motivational and sure will add a better understanding of the processes involved in the full version.


Bob I really want to get up your way before Christmas to see my Aunt and Uncle at Casino.  Been a while since I have seen them although I have been at the Goldie several times this year but flew rather than drove.  I'm not shooting on the coast this year, they want me to do the NZ gig instead as they can't find anyone in the whole damn country that can do what we do but I would have much preferred to do the Goldie event.  I like it there. For all it's said to be, I feel relaxed, comfortable and at home.  Best place to be in my line of work as well. Mrs will never move there so will be a longing unfulfilled.
Might do a promotion before I leave and just spend a few days there in a nice hotel and do some shoots to pay for spoiling the mrs a bit. Still have a couple of people that want to shoot with me that I couldn't fit in last time so that may be a good move.

In any event, I'd love to drop in and bore..... errr, visit you on the way up or back.  Be really great to see your engine and finally meet you in person as well.

The thing you'll find when you do feed your engine veg oil will be that it is terribly boring.
The only difference you'll notice is the aroma.  It won't run any different, sound any different or anything else, just run the same way as it does any other time. That's the thing that gets people. They are waiting for something to happen and it doesn't.  It's a big let down for some whom seem to be waiting for their engines to explode or just die!  :laugh:

Probably the most significant thing to occur is your pocket stays heavier with the money you save.  I drive 3000Km from Sydney to Brisvegas, run round everywhere there and between and come back home and my total fuel spend is Zero, sometimes $20 if I buy some ULP to blend in to make the old girl run a bit harder when I'm loaded and want to blow past the trucks and morons doing 15 under the limit as fast as possible.  On my old tank, that's a saving of about $500 in fuel with the economy it ( doesen't) get.
 Of course the organisation I work for still pays me travel money well over that so it makes for a well paid working holiday.

If you are thinking of running oil, start finding your sources and salting it away now so it has a chance to settle and will be less effort to filter and dry. You might also like to think about a processor like the one in my vids to filter and dry the oil. One batch would probably keep you going a month or more.
Also be worth about a $350 saving on diesel prices..... plus your power savings.
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: dieselspanner on September 19, 2018, 03:09:51 PM
Put it all in!

There's bound to be lots of 'crossover' and it's all about 'dino' replacement.

It won't be like you're going 'off topic' 'cos the whole forum is one HUGE topic from members welfare to the higher end of diy electronics, in fact anything apart from religion, politics and out right piss taking seems to be fair game.

It's like meeting the lads down the pub for me, honest.

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 20, 2018, 12:00:12 AM
Hey Glort, I agree with Stef, lets have it all. Before my car accident my fuel bill for the ute was about ten percent of my weekly income. If I ever get back to driving I will be buying an old robust diesel four wheel drive that can run WVO.

I haven`t got round to sourcing waste oil yet, it`s tricky when you don`t drive. I have a mate who collects it for his pottery kiln I`ll have to tap him up for advice.

If you are coming up our way please come and see us.

I`ve viewed your processing videos and am planning to do something very similar. I have a source for 45 gallon steel drums and will start looking for the pump, filters and valves.

Still got to build the engine shed. I`d like to have it close to the house so I can harvest the heat generated for hot water, probably have to use a heat exchanger  to avoid contamination. I am worried the vibration will shake the house and drive the missus mad.

I`m off to my mates house today, I have an appointment with his lathe. Got a lot of CS parts that need repair/modification. I`ll take some photos and post them latter. I doubt my photographic skills match yours so bear with me.

Bob
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: glort on September 20, 2018, 02:44:37 AM

Well I have written a novel so far but I figure those that are interested will read it all to learn a lot and those that have attention deficit disorders will whinge anyway.

I can see the problem with not being able to get around. When I was teaching my son to drive we would go out for hours each week to get his practice hours up. We would go far and wide always with teh collection tank in the back of the truck.  Never got so much oil in my life as what I did that year. I was supplying mates and even they were saying no more, were full  and had more than they ever dreamed of.
Usually though you can get onto a couple of good suppliers and satisfy your greasy needs from just them. Even if they are a bit distant, as long as you get a worthwhile haul it's worth the bit of the drive especially when you are running free fuel.


As for the gen shed, I would think if the engine wasn't terribly Unbalanced it should be OK. I had my jackhammer mounted within 8 Ft of the house on the concrete slab of the driveway and that caused no vibration problems. If that thing didn't, nothing remotely balanced will.
I brought an old Tyre down from my fathers place which I am going to try as an engine mount for one of my smaller engines.  You may be able to make a good mount for yours with beams along 3-4 Tyres to spread the weight. 

Bolt the sides of the tyres to the concrete  or pegs hammered into the ground and screw/ bolt the runners for the engine to the other side.  I think this would work well for vibration damping but I would try a conventional mount first as I think it will be fine.

One thing I would see if I could source for an engine shed would be Cool room panel. It's often available very cheap from the things being removed and has excellent sound deadening properties.  You can cut the stuff with a circular saw to size and screw it together with the aluminum extrusion or just brackets and Glue.  Might have to go to Brissy or the coast to get it but I'm sure it would be available cheap or free.

I think the sound will be a bigger factor than Vibration and Cool room panel would be a great way to address that without having to line a garden shed or muck around with sound deadening solution's which could quickly add up in time and cost.

You can get 30 plate heat ex changers off fleabay pretty cheap now.  Small circulation pump and you would have a good base setup. I'd try and find another old hot water tank and use that as the cooling tank for the engine. This will keep the water hot even when the engine is not running and as heaters tend to have ports on each side, you could rig in a radiator and a fan for a heat dump when you had enough hot water but still wanted to run the engine. Lot of ways you can do this though.

Are you going to try and tap the heat from the exhaust as well? I have read conflicting reports of how much heat is available there. Just because something gets hot does not mean there is a lot of heat energy. As I tell people on my vids, A match will burn at 1200o C+ but that does not mean you can melt metal with it. OTOH, 33% of the energy in the fuel is supposed to be lost in the exhaust but again harvesting it is a different matter too.
I think Ed does well from his setup though.

Don't worry about the pics. they will be plenty good enough.
I KNOW your machining and fabrication skills would leave mine for dead and I would prefer that skill set than the one I have TBH.
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 20, 2018, 09:23:42 AM
Glad to here the novel is underway, there are a lot of us looking forward to it.
 
Behind my house I have two 25000 Ltr water tanks I am thinking of building the engine shed behind them. That should help to reduce the noise and vibration. If I am smart about it, it could also double up as glass house for my wife`s collection of succulents, with the engine providing warmth in winter. Situating the engine shed behind the water tanks has one other advantage, the hot water storage cylinder is only a couple of meters away.

I have no intentions to try and harvest the exhaust heat but I have considered using it to increase the temperature of the oil in the sump. This would help to evaporate off the water that condenses in the crankcase, especially during short runs.

Still got a way to go before first smoke. Cylinder head need rebuilding and I ordered the parts last night. I`m still in two minds about the worn cylinder, sleeve the old one or buy a replacement Indian one for $200. I emailed Stephen at Ozlisteroids to find out if one of the JKSON wet sleeved cylinders would fit an original Lister. I haven`t had a reply yet but think that a wet sleeve would make servicing and ring replacement etc easier.

Bob

Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: glort on September 20, 2018, 01:39:57 PM

A limited amount of exhaust fed into the greenhouse could be highly beneficial Bob. Commercial greenhouses often double the amount of CO2 in the enclosures to make the plants grow faster.

If the engine was in the greenhouse, perhaps some worthwhile heat from the exhaust could be derived just from a long exhaust pipe which would provide good surface area for the heat to transfer.  You could run it in the ground a shallow distance and sit pots on top or have it elevated under racks to provide warmth by convection.  My guess is in winter even a small temp rise would be worthwhile and help production.
Another benefit to having the engine in the greenhouse would be the heat from the alternator a well.  I wouldn't expect that to be a lot but still it would be a benefit and increase your over all efficiency.

There is a guy from the US that lives in one of those hell hole frozen places that I helped build an oil burner to heat his commercial greenhouse.
He had an enormous LPG tank he used to have refilled several times a winter and cost thousands to provide heat so his plants didn't keel over.
He replaced the gas burner in his heater with an oil burner and saved thousands on his heating costs.  His brother ran a truck service center so he has all the oil he needs.  Gets it summer and winter so can run his greenhouse warmer than he could afford before and as well as saving money on the gas, he has an increased production now.

Was simple to replace the burner in the heater which also makes hot water to go to other seed hatchery's or whatever they are called and heats an office and packing area.

If you need more heat in the greenhouse than what the engine can provide, I can tell you how to build an oil burner to have the thing a cosy 40 oC all year round if you want!  :0)
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: BruceM on September 20, 2018, 07:27:19 PM
I've recently read a couple articles where vegetable nutrition is shown to be reduced with increased CO2- faster growth.   I suspect the same basic situation is the cause of some poor results for some hydroponic vege minerals and vitamins.

 It seems that plants that grow slower take up more minerals and are healthier for us.  Some hydroponic growers do take this into consideration and will back off on nutrients and water intentionally to raise plant Brix levels, which is easily measured.

In a sane world, this would be a focus of much and very well funded research.






Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: mikenash on September 20, 2018, 08:27:08 PM
Case in point:

Hydroponic tomatoes which are kinda red, vaguely tomato-ey and - much more important - consistent in flavour texture and availability all year round for the restaurant trade

But if you cut some slices of a fresh Beefsteak tomato grown in a sunny backyard in compost-rich soil it's kind of like an uber-tomato explosion, flavourwise

Tech is doing a wonderful job of "feeding the world" but it's doing nothing for flavour, nutrition or, probably, health.

Certainly, IMHO, the words "food" and "roundup-ready" shouldn't be used in the same sentence
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 20, 2018, 11:48:33 PM
Not sure my Wife would be happy with me filling her green house with diesel/WVO fumes. I`m not sure how much soot a CS produces but it`s probably unhealthy. When I was working on computers in central London, we had a spate of processor failures. It was traced back to cooling fans failing because they were clogged up with black soot. The soot was coming from the bus station/depot across the street. Very glad I don`t work or live there anymore.

I only have to worry about heating for a couple of months a year, the rest of the year we are trying to keep cool. Wonder if anyone has ever built an air conditioner that runs by burning WVO?

Bob
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: glort on September 20, 2018, 11:49:42 PM
It seems that plants that grow slower take up more minerals and are healthier for us.

I think this would depend on how they were grown and probably applies to conventional methods. I know with the aeroponics setup I favor the growth and the nutrition is  enhanced. You are giving the plant the best environment over all.
I would think in most greenhouses that use extra CO2, they also work on the minimal nutrition the plant needs rather than a full spectrum of available minerals etc.  Spose to really know you'd have to compare growing methods. that said, from what I have seen, it's not usual to use co2 enhancement with aeroponics.

I was watching some Vids last night where a guy in ireland was testing the difference in Potato yields growing them in the ground and in pots. In the ground because of the size area and leching of the water ect he could only put so much compost and fertilizer to go round. In the pots that was a much more contained and limited amount and therefor more concentrated.  The yeild from the pots was over double from what he got in the ground.... 2 years running.

Was funny yo read the comments from people claiming it was an unfair test because he used dirt in the garden and compost in the pots.  the point was it would not be practical to put that much compost as needed in the ground but it is with pots being a far more limited amount and the yeild is double.
For whatever reason people wanted to defend growing in the ground like they were insulted it was not the winner of the test.

I have experienced the exact same thing myself with tomatoes.  grown in small 25L drums with the lids cut off I can put in loads of fertiliser and compost material and it's easy to keep the water up to them in hot weather. Pots can be put more easily in ideal locations, control of weeds and pests is easier and it's just easier to give them more attention.  Sitting them on the back verandah makes them decorative as well. Looks great having all this fresh fruit at your back door when they are loaded and to me much better than a fern or other ornamental but otherwise useless plant.



Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: glort on September 21, 2018, 12:31:04 AM

 Wonder if anyone has ever built an air conditioner that runs by burning WVO?


I was in the process of doing one before I moved house. I can't find anyone with an engine driven AC on YT though. Thought somone would have dne it by now.

I Just took all the components from a car AC which have about the same power as a medium size domestic Split AC and was going to run that off a veg fueled Diesel engine instead of the car engine. I asked AC mate about belt driven Compressors and seems the only thing that works that way Now is stuff too big for your home and would weight a half ton literally.

Not a lot to doing it with a car AC actually. Just rebuild the car AC system and I was going to gas it up with LPG which works great. Have that in my Truck AC and it will freeze you on a hot day.

I suppose in fact you could just install a domestic Split unit and if that was being powered by your lister genny running on veg, that would be in fact the achievement of the goal you are after. It would be efficient too as they do get more heating/ cooling power than the input energy as they use the energy in the air to enhance the process.  In winter using the exhaust heat from the engine through the coils  would greatly increase the efficiency and output.
Soot wouldn't matter, give the thing a hose every so often like you are supposed to do anyway but few ever do.

I'm going to rig up the water spray on my condenser unit soon. I use  micro mist sprinkler jets to create a spray that the fan pulls through and cools the intake air by evaporation.  Makes a HUGE difference on the real hot days.  Takes the efficiency curve from outside it's operating zone to a comfortable area within it and makes the thing go from struggling to do anything  to being very effective.

Uses bugger all water and the trade off in energy is well worth it.  There is a down pipe from the roof near the Condenser unit so I can put a tank there as I was going to anyway and use that for the water. Will last a long time even if there is no rain.

I was looking for another AC unit from a car last week but everything still had the dash in and I was too lazy and occupied doing other things to pull another one out. It's a pain in the arse job and I had the ute loaded with logs for a water feature I'm building in the front garden for the Mrs and a bunch of other treasure for different things.

I have finally trained the Mrs and daughter with the AC here.  Got up this morning and the place is cold again thanks to a 2 oC night.  Inside is 15 so I put on the air and immediately got a lecture to put another jumper on and they didn't use the AC at all while I was away.  I know that's a lie because I can see how much power was used but then again, they were probably running the dryer at night or using the fan heaters I have to throw away.

Still, the idea to go sparingly is a good one. Not so long ago they would have had the heat on and the back door open and setting the temp at 30. Guess my naggin....errrr, educating them has paid off.
 I know I have about 100 Kwh of power up my sleeve atm thanks to the sunny days giving me 50-60 KWH a day this last week so I can burn some off, be comfortable, happy and still not worry about the cost!
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: BruceM on September 21, 2018, 03:15:53 AM
I agree, MikeNash, 4x more Roundup in the crop is hardly a step in the right direction. People are easily propagandized; Rodale proved decades ago that chemical free farming had about the same (slightly better) crop loss to bugs, etc, (20%) as full press Monsanto frankenfood dripping with all sorts of chemicals and pesticides. They had much higher yields in drought, because of the increased organic matter in the soil.  The "big improvement" with a new product introduction (pesticide) only last a couple years, then bug/disease resistance kicks in.

The Brix measurement (plant sugars) is a pretty good objective measurement of vegetable "wow" flavor.  Making plants grow fast don't boost Brix, nor does CO2 addition. Very fast growth is usually associated with tasteless, low Brix veges.  The better hydroponics growers manage Brix, which reduces yield.  It is NOT just a matter of mega- nutrients.




Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: mikenash on September 21, 2018, 09:25:10 AM
Fascinating.

Rodales "How to grow Vegetables & Fruits by the Organic Method"  (all four-inches thick of it and with a Glort-length word count)  - the 1968 edition printed before chemicals were really in use anyway - was the bible in my household for a couple of decades when we had kids at home, grew our own veges, ran fruit trees and waged war on opossums, had chickens etc etc

We were lucky enough to have an inexhaustible supply of almost-free barley straw so had big, permanently-mulched, no-dig gardens and big batch-load compost heaps that were built inside big boxes made of straw bales, got so hot they would smoulder sometimes, and produced the best, black, crumbly compost . . .

When I'm a REALLY old fart and am retired I hope to do that again as I am lucky enough to own an acre of prime growing dirt . . . just need to live long enough

Our kids grew up really healthy, too - running around in the country & eating home-grown stuff & living without a television
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: BruceM on September 21, 2018, 05:09:51 PM
Your kids were very lucky, Mike.  I grew up on hamburger helper, Tang, hanging Shell No Pest Strips (DDT) in the bedroom and our summer drinking/cooking water stored in rinsed out, new 2 gallon Xray film developer concentrate bottles, despite the red skull and crossbones on the bottles.  MD's can be amazingly ignorant. Didn't work out well for family health.

My climate here is a so dry, short season and harsh that there is no commercial farming (which is good for me). I had a nice garden with big cold frames and after a few successful years of the soap and oil spray bug and powdery mildew wars, I got hailed out 3 years in a row and quit.  I'd like to do a greenhouse but my health has been too poor for a such a big project.  Year round greenhouse growing here requires evaporative cooling from June through August and my thoughts were to incorporate tall tower with wind scoop inlet, evaporative chilling just below, and 3 x 6 foot air path.








Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: glort on September 21, 2018, 11:45:31 PM
and our summer drinking/cooking water stored in rinsed out, new 2 gallon Xray film developer concentrate bottles,

Do you mean this literally?   :o  :o  :o

No real difference between  B&W Film and Xray Developer, Same thing used for both but they had some Chemicals in them you would not think of consuming.
Apart from that, They would be hard if not impossible to wash off from a bottle completely due to the way they would crystalise then take a lot to re dissolve them once dried.  Even a spot of them in a bottle neck or under a lid would contaminate a bottle really well.

I can't imagine how anyone would think to use those bottles for drinking water. Just the smell of the stuff would tell you it was toxic and the last thing you would want to do is drink from anything that had come near it. I take it you are referring to the old Brown glass bottles? May have at least been better than the later plastic ones but Geez!

Might be someone out there now storing drinking water in empty Round up drums.....   :embarassed:

I planted out some Beefsteak and Roma Tomatoes yesterday in pots and put them in a semi shaded area near the back verandah. I think the summer sun is too strong here for them in the open. I like and have had good success with pots anyway.  When I came here I had several plants that were over 2 years old.  Last winters frost wiped them out which was disappointing.

I have also got over 50 Sunflower seedlings coming along nicely.  I grew a few last year and they looked great. As a friend said, they look like happy plants and I can do with lots of happy around the place.  I want to plant them all along the driveway which I think will look great.
Also put in some corn but they have failed to come up. I remember the same thing happening last year.  I had to resort to the old school thing of wet paper towel to get them up. Once I got them a few inches High I had no trouble from them on.... except with the birds .

Think I'll do some more lettuce and greens and get the aeroponic drum going again as well.
Been thinking I don't need a greenhouse, Just a regular pre-fab Shed will do. I can Cover the thing with solar panels and put LED lights inside. Long as I can control the heat and water it will be fine.
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: BruceM on September 22, 2018, 02:23:48 AM
Not glass, 2 gallon plastic (HDPE) jugs. Apparently, medical schools are a weak on practical toxicology. Solvents (and other compounds) leak into the plastic, then leach out. My Dad apologized a couple years before his death by ALS, after a lifetime of osteoarthritis so bad he only had movement left in three neck vertebra; his entire spine had fused.  He said he thought plastic was inert. He still didn't realize the full extent what he had done to himself and his family.





Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: mike90045 on September 22, 2018, 03:06:41 AM
Not glass, 2 gallon plastic (HDPE) jugs. Apparently, medical schools are a weak on practical toxicology. Solvents (and other compounds) leak into the plastic, then leach out. My Dad apologized a couple years before his death by ALS, after a lifetime of osteoarthritis so bad he only had movement left in three neck vertebra; his entire spine had fused.  He said he thought plastic was inert. He still didn't realize the full extent what he had done to himself and his family.

OMG !! wow, glass is tough enough to rinse, but plastic - impossible
Title: Re: Are there...
Post by: glort on September 23, 2018, 09:57:34 AM
Finally found this thread.

The Novel of using veg oil is here:

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8380.0