Lister Engine Forum

How to / DIY => Engines => Topic started by: fikamu on August 28, 2018, 02:38:43 PM

Title: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: fikamu on August 28, 2018, 02:38:43 PM
Hi pro's  :)

Now after doing many hours of maintenace and "cleaning" plus painting, it seems like I'm gonna mont the engine to my brand new generator room.

I have read lots of documents about vibration possibilities etc. and that is why, I kindly ask if anyone of you has real and experienced knowledge, how to mount the engine in a proper way. Directly to concrete floor with heavy bolts, some wooden stuff in between or possible rubber vibration absorbers under the engine.

It will take between 1-2 weeks and I will be asking my neighbour to lift the engine with a tractor into my room. That is why, I ask this info and appreciate any valid knowledge into this.

Also I promise to send some pictures of my project when I proceed with it.

Cheers

PS. my generator room floor is 1.7 m x 1.9 m and thickness of the floor is about 12 cm. So, quite heavy and solid, I think :-)
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: dieselgman on August 28, 2018, 11:11:24 PM
Old-School Lister methods call for solid mounting to a large concrete mass. Modern genset methods always include rubber isolation mounts. Either way, your SR will be happy. If you go with the rubber mounts, you will still need an anchoring mass to bolt everything down to. Your SR1 is small and light enough to use a light duty steel skid and just bolt that to your floor or to a couple buried wooden skids, railroad ties or whatever you have to hand.

dieselgman
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: glort on August 29, 2018, 03:50:57 AM

Do you have any suggestion for the rubber Mounts Butch?

I tried some car gearbox mounts and they were scarily too soft.  Maybe the car engine mounts are better but then they all seem to come in weird shapes and mounting points.
Is there anything available world wide you could recommend?
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: cobbadog on August 29, 2018, 06:42:21 AM
I would use the 'KISS' method and bolt it to the concrete directly. Many old engines were mounted on concrete plinths with no problems. Usually the concrete plinth is a heavy lump as well and about 12" thick or more depending on the size of the engine. My 8hp CD Lister was a gen-set engine and was only ever directly bolted to an "I" beam skid and the gen-set was bolted to it as well, all with no issues.
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: glort on August 29, 2018, 08:24:12 AM

I think if you go direct to concrete, using a strip of rubber between the engine and the floor is a good Idea to take up any unevenness in the concrete.
I doubt there is much give in a cast engine casing and if you were out of level and torqued the thing down a bit hard, you are easily going to break off a foot if not worse.

I mounted mine on some timber and bolted the timber to the concrete so as to provide a bit of give and mainly sound isolation.

Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: Johndoh on August 29, 2018, 09:00:08 AM

Do you have any suggestion for the rubber Mounts Butch?

I tried some car gearbox mounts and they were scarily too soft.  Maybe the car engine mounts are better but then they all seem to come in weird shapes and mounting points.
Is there anything available world wide you could recommend?

Hey Glort, take a look at these Land Rover series engine mounts https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Land-Rover-Defender-Engine-Mount-Mounting-Rubber-x2-ANR1808/331510125083?hash=item4d2f8b121b:g:GXwAAOSwoj9bCEL7
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: glort on August 29, 2018, 12:06:24 PM

Thanks for the heads up! They look like they would do well for a lot of gear mounting.

Typically, any thing for a euro car here is ridiculously expensive where in the UK etc it's the exact opposite.
On these seems like a matter of the devil and the deep Blue sea. Buy from OS and get slugged with stupid postage costs, buy locally and get slugged with extortionate profit margins.

Tried some other sites and found some other mounts, ( thanks for more ideas and inspiration) and found the same thing, Item is cheap, price is a killer.
They look good though so I'll keep an eye out for a set of the things at the right price for the items AND postage!
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: 38ac on August 29, 2018, 12:11:07 PM
As they said solid mount it to a suitable structure or isolate it. There are pluses and minuses to both methods.

Solid mounting is how the engine was designed to be operated. It requires a mass, be it concrete or timber that is large enough and surrounded by enough earth that it resists the motions of the engine.  Pluses are it is kind t the engine, you wont be troubled by parts and pieces being shaken off of it during operation. Minuses are cost of installation and the less mass you try to get by with the more pounding is send to the earth and it travels a surprising distance to annoy whomever is affected.

Isolation mounts are quick, and relatively cheap as compared to concrete. When properly selected are very effective at  eliminating  the pulsations being sent to the earth.  They do have one glaring minus and that is they allow the engine to shake, how much it shakes depends on RPM, make model and individual balance.

 I just had an SL1 in the shop that had been run on soft mounts. It shook the fuel tank loose so many times it wore holes in the tank, the fuel filter bracket had been broken and welded numerous times.  The engine control where it goes though the block had worn the hole in the block oblong.   This engine runs lots of hours running a milk cooler and had been on a slab that was both a bit too light  a little bit too close to the house.  Ms Amish finally had enough and announced it needed to be fixed which they did by mounting it on soft rubber mounts. Made mom happy but made Mr engine unhappy. 

If you decide to go the soft mount route you need to get everything off the engine that you can such as fuel tanks, filter heads etc. When you fire it up look for things that are shaking to a different tune than the block because that means sooner or later its going to shake its way loose.Lots of major engine failures have happened due to important things shaking off of engines while running.  Personally I always suggest mass and solid mountings as the first choice for single cylinder sets.
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: Johndoh on August 29, 2018, 12:52:45 PM
Always positives and negatives! I know the Landy mounts can take a lot of abuse I didn't think they would be much difference pricewise in Oz surely they imported thousands of them? Why do the singles vibrate so much? Is it the small footprint? Would a piece of plate with double the footprint on rubber mounts make a difference? I'm curious because I have an old lister project that will need attaching to something.
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: 38ac on August 29, 2018, 01:09:36 PM
The singles vibrate because there is no practical means to counter the back and forth motion of the piston with an opposite back and forth motion. The only practical method is to  counter the piston motion as best as can be with a rotating weight, usually on the flywheel. Problem is that rotating weight is also trying to move the engine 90 degrees to the piston motion along with countering it.  Multi cylinder engines counter piston movements with other pistons moving the other direction which is a better situation than occurs in a single but if those two cylinders are very far apart the opposite travelling pistons deal has it's own set of problems as anyone who has tried to settle down a Lister CS twin can attest. ;D
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: glort on August 29, 2018, 01:51:15 PM

I didn't think they would be much difference pricewise in Oz surely they imported thousands of them?

9 years ago a close friend worked for a dealer that did a number of euro brands including Landrover, BMW, Alfalfa, Merc and Rolls.
Amazed by the parts prices, he put together a list of things where LR were more exy than anything else, INCLUDING Rolls.
I remember a car he had as his company car, a luxury Rangie got a cracked headlight when he was driving on the highway.
 List price? Touch under $4000.

Everything LR and RR, ( that's Range rover, not rolls) is worth a fortune here. 
Even many of the aftermarket parts.

I had a Peugeot  405 for a while. Very nicely appointed car and with some mods and the fuel pump turned up and the wastegate disabled, went like a cut snake.  Small parts for that were 1/5th the price to get from the UK.  I did the back brakes and needed new lines into the slave Cylinders.  Some astronomical price for a bit of 30 Cm line with some compression fittings. From memory it was well over $300 and no one had them non genuine.
Went to the Hydraulic  place and they made me a pair out of some high spec stuff they tested to 10K psi or something for $30.  Ready in an hour.

Sons mate came over one evening and I smelled him before I saw him. VW golf's alternator was smoking like it was about to catch fire.  Replacement from stealer, over $900.  Didn't take much to fab  a bracket to put one from a Subaru in there instead as they were the same alt ( Mitsubishi surprisingly) with different mounting width.
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: mikenash on August 29, 2018, 08:28:29 PM
As they said solid mount it to a suitable structure or isolate it. There are pluses and minuses to both methods.

Solid mounting is how the engine was designed to be operated. It requires a mass, be it concrete or timber that is large enough and surrounded by enough earth that it resists the motions of the engine.  Pluses are it is kind t the engine, you wont be troubled by parts and pieces being shaken off of it during operation. Minuses are cost of installation and the less mass you try to get by with the more pounding is send to the earth and it travels a surprising distance to annoy whomever is affected.

Isolation mounts are quick, and relatively cheap as compared to concrete. When properly selected are very effective at  eliminating  the pulsations being sent to the earth.  They do have one glaring minus and that is they allow the engine to shake, how much it shakes depends on RPM, make model and individual balance.

 I just had an SL1 in the shop that had been run on soft mounts. It shook the fuel tank loose so many times it wore holes in the tank, the fuel filter bracket had been broken and welded numerous times.  The engine control where it goes though the block had worn the hole in the block oblong.   This engine runs lots of hours running a milk cooler and had been on a slab that was both a bit too light  a little bit too close to the house.  Ms Amish finally had enough and announced it needed to be fixed which they did by mounting it on soft rubber mounts. Made mom happy but made Mr engine unhappy. 

If you decide to go the soft mount route you need to get everything off the engine that you can such as fuel tanks, filter heads etc. When you fire it up look for things that are shaking to a different tune than the block because that means sooner or later its going to shake its way loose.Lots of major engine failures have happened due to important things shaking off of engines while running.  Personally I always suggest mass and solid mountings as the first choice for single cylinder sets.


We have SRs here as on-site pump engines - rubber-mounted on transportable frames.  The things that really needs remote mounting, in our experience, are the diesel tanks and the controllers.  The controller will shake itself to bits in a few weeks on site.  Ditto the solenoids given time
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: ajaffa1 on August 29, 2018, 11:14:44 PM
You could try something like this

Bob
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: mike90045 on August 30, 2018, 02:01:40 AM
Many times, compliant (rubber mounts) will exhibit a resonance when speeding up or slowing down.  Since our engines spend 99.9% of the time at fixed RPM for AC generation, it's only an issue at start-up and shut-down, but you should keep an eye on it.   And as the rubber wears over the years, the resonance may change
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: glort on August 30, 2018, 02:10:36 AM

Looking more like rigid mounting might be the safer way to go?
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: mikenash on August 30, 2018, 04:03:54 AM
You could try something like this

Bob

The Last SR on which I re-mounted the controller and bits-and-bobs had mountings just like these.  I thought it had to do with what it was driving as much as with the engine itself, and the varying loads as that engaged/disengaged etc - in this case a multi-stack water pump lifting water almost 100 metres vertically and with which the pump stopped/started as the water tank filled etc

To be fair, the controller was stupidly mounted on a pedestal where it would pick up all the vibes . . . .
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: cobbadog on August 30, 2018, 07:43:21 AM
Definitely would mount it on timber skids and bolt the timber down solid. Earlier it was noted that if bolted directly to concrete there is a possibility that the concrete may not be perfectly even and level and can cause a foot to break. I know it does as I have a leg broken off a small hit n miss engine and now I need to weld it up and then use some timber between the foot and the steel frame.
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: ajaffa1 on August 30, 2018, 09:17:30 AM
I think timber is probably the easiest and most readily available. Just be aware that unseasoned timber moves, Australian hardwood might actually move enough to crack a casting. The other issue here is termites/white ants which will turn a railway sleeper into dust in about 18 months.

So I would recommend pine treated with copper chrome arsenate, it`s strong enough to take the load, weak enough to not damage the feet on you equipment and nothing is going to eat it. You will probably need to re-torque the bolts at regular intervals as the timber dries and shrinks

Bob
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: glort on August 30, 2018, 01:12:22 PM

I have some very decent timber slabs I have kept for such a purpose. Either for ground mounting or making a transporter.
Also had a great big log about 8 Ft long I sawed in half which took some time even with the chainsaw up at Dads.
Left it there knowing I was moving and to dry out properly.

Last time I was up there I went looking for them only to be informed they had dried out well and made great firewood.  When I said you  knew what I cut them for, Father replied well you left them there in the wood shed and I didn't think you wanted them any more.
Do you remember why they were left in the wood shed Dad?  Yes, to Dry!  >:(

Plenty of trees I can cut, but now I'll have to wait another 2 years or more to season them.

I like watching saw Milling Vids but I nearly cry when they get these massive logs and cut them into pissy little 1" boards.
 FFS, use the regular size plantation trees for boards and keep the big stuff for slabs and great hulking beams that you can't get out of many trees these days.
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: ajaffa1 on August 30, 2018, 01:50:08 PM
When I worked for Boral saw milling, it would break my heart to watch beautiful timber cut into 4" x 1" boards, it would then be sent to Lismore and Casino to be dried. After that is was turned into decking boards for verandas.  :'(

70% waste, 30% usable timber and they had to pay M I Organics to take away the waste. F*cking criminal they can`t even be bothered to recycle the waste into particle board or burn it to power their operations.

I feel for your loss of seasoned timber, it takes a year per inch thickness to air dry wood. It can be kiln dried but why use fossil fuels to do what nature does for nothing. Lack of foresight and planning as usual.  >:(

Bob
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: Johndoh on August 30, 2018, 02:09:50 PM
Im going to use my railway sleepers good seasoned timber I got for bending over to lift them!
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: 38ac on August 30, 2018, 02:24:47 PM
The prim and proper way to mount the engine to concrete is to place one 1/4" steel shim at the high spot to leave room for grout, them shim all the lower ones to same level so the base bears equally. Then set the engine and lightly snug the nuts, then grout under the base and finally tighten the nuts when the grout is dry and hard. This is in most of the older Lister manuals along with how to properly mix the concrete and how much is needed.  Lister was pretty thorough about how to mount their products properly.  I cheat that process by doing a good job with the concrete and use 1" hardwood boards under the engine instead of grout. Works out well if you keep after the nuts until they quit loosening.
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: glort on August 30, 2018, 05:14:47 PM
Im going to use my railway sleepers good seasoned timber I got for bending over to lift them!

Railway sleepers are a Commodity here.
The mill down the road from my father was buying all they could get when they were replaced by concrete.
They sawed them up thin for paneling interiour walls.  Another travesty as some of this wood was over 100 years old.  They guy that owns the Mill took my father for a tour and told him they were making fortunes out the stuff. Said they were also buying all the timber from old bridges they could get which was also BIG timber in many cases and sawing that thin as paper as well.

I have seen hardwood Sleepers at a hardware chain here. Some of them aren't bad looking timber at all.
 I would like to make a transporter out of those one day.  I think if these were sanded down fine and lacqured they would come up well.

The timber I cut also had a very nice looking colour and grain to it.


I was looking at Kiln drying timber Bob.  What I found was it does not have to be all that hot.  I reckon I could make up a one off setup and feed that with an oil burner and have any timber dry in 2 Days.  If I had something like a big lump of 36" Metal Pipe that I could really fire some heat into, probably do it in one day.  I might be able to use roofing Iron sheets to form an oven and dry large timber that way.  The only problem with supplying heat would be not to go too much and turn it into a charcoal Kiln!

I saw a couple of transports made from half sawn logs that were very old and they looked great. If I could find a set of old wheels.... perfect!
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: ajaffa1 on August 31, 2018, 10:07:06 AM
There are several ways of drying timber but the most important thing is to seal the end grain before doing it. Failing to do this will result in bad splits and checks in each end of your lumber. There are a great many wax based spray on sealers available for exactly this purpose.

The second issue is that timber tends to cup, warp and twist as it dries. I stack mine with battens between them at about 400 mm centers. I then wrap the bundle with ratchet straps and torque them down tight. I tighten them on a weekly basis until the timber is dry.

The trick with successful drying isn`t heat, it is air flow. Australia is quite hot enough and dry enough to season timber very quickly. A lot of drying sheds are fan assisted.

I would avoid applying excessive amounts of heat to timber as it can break down the cellulose structure and make it weak and brittle. I have seen over kilned pine as soft as balsa wood.

Another method a lot of wood turners use is to soak your unseasoned piece of wood in ethylene glycol (antifreeze). This  forces the moisture out of the wood very quickly but makes it almost impossible to polish.

Bob
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: mikenash on August 31, 2018, 10:38:08 AM
20 + years in the timer industry tells us:

Anything will do to seal the ends, but you are dead right about heat etc

Rule of thumb:  shade & battens & weights on top & ventilation but not wind & drying at the rate of an inch a year (board thickness)

Slow is best

Kiln drying is only good for production work not artisan timber
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: 38ac on August 31, 2018, 11:17:00 AM
More timber guys eh? Strictly armature here. I have a Peterson swinger we play with along with most of the needed bits to turn it into projects.
Title: Re: What is the right mounting method of Lister SR1 engine + generator
Post by: glort on August 31, 2018, 12:46:44 PM

Kiln drying is only good for production work not artisan timber

I would not regard the material to be used for Mouting an engine and making a transport something that required " Artisan Timber".    :laugh: :laugh: