Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Petteroids => Topic started by: sirpedrosa on August 16, 2018, 12:51:38 AM
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Greetings my good fellows
I'm starting this new thread here because I did not find another more precise to make known the progress of this new project.
I took this afternoon to see if my "new" PAZ1 could be resurrected.
The bad news: fuel tank with a huge hole.
To do: disassemble the fuel line; improvise a temporary line (see photo - final version); bleed (+320 crank turns) the bubbles never stopped ... and finally it is alive.
Next step: disassembly, sandblasting, straightening plates, primer and paint.
Difficulties today: lack of English spanners. Once more improvising.
I'll post the project advance.
Best regards to all
Pedrosa
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At some point I realized that transpiration wasn't enough to fulfil the task, therefore I took a break to inspiration (see foto). Please note the important is that I cannibalized my 10 year ago hidrolizer project, because it has the BSP right to fit the injection pump.
Fell free to watch the video.https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dhZgPIi0LQkGf44bzjQNN_2lnCSRJu4g/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dhZgPIi0LQkGf44bzjQNN_2lnCSRJu4g/view?usp=sharing)
See you later.
Pedrosa
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Welcome sirpedrosa, and congratulations on the new project; considering it's age I would call it in great original condition.
I too am a fan of the PAZ1, and it is certainly in better condition than any of the ones I have, especially the sheet metal and fuel tank.
What are you planning on installing it on?
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Hi Willw
By now it's only to make it pretty. After i'll figure something to it to run.
This afternoon I changed the oil - there was some sludge in the bottom of sump.
3 lts (metric conversion) of good mineral oil and it runs smoother.
I want to strip it down, but i need the workshop manual. I all ready ask help with this task.
Please, if you have it in pdf format, send it.
Best regards
Pedrosa
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Greetings Everyone
Can someone share the PAZ1 workshop manual? Please.
BR
Pedrosa
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Greetings Everyone
Another good question for the comunity: does anyone know how much tightening torque of the "delivery pipe connetion"
(http://injectionpumps.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Bryce-Single-Cylinder-Injection-Pump-Diagram.jpg)
BR
Pedrosa
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NOT very tight if it's a flare fitting .
A compression fitting with ferrule is not as reliable. Ferrules can never be reused once they have been compressed
Finger tight, and then just a tiny bit more. The shape of the fitting is what seals, not the torque of the nut. Too tight and you ruin the fitting.
Again, it's the shape of the metal-metal interface that seals, not jamming the nut on super tight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flare_fitting
https://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/cth/cth_8flrdjts.html
The IP creates high pressure, much like brakes in a automobile.
Steel brake lines also use this sort of fitting, but since it's harder steel, it's more difficult for DIY at home, often it's easier/safer/reliable to but the pre-shaped line.
https://www.hoseandfittingsetc.com/our-blog/bid/76614/Brake-Line-Fitting-Identification-How-to
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Hi Mike90045
Many thnks for reply, but is not that torque I mean. It's the (20) tighten in the body (1). It took some strength to unscrew it, I say quite a bit.
the body BRYCE is Aluminium.
Now I need the toque limit to tight.
BR
VPedrosa
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Greetings Everyone
Does anyone have the Bryce model NSDLA052D0359 injector manual?
Some help apreciated here.
Good week to all.
BR
Pedrosa
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Updating...
Fuel pump rack extention - stop overload arrives from UK.
BR
VP
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Updating pile...
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Greetings Everyone
the air filter holder has gained a new nut
Good weekend to all.
BR
Pedrosa
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Hi Everyone
I saw a good deal (for parts) on the net of another PAZ1 - and I buyed it (same price of first, but lacking starting handle and exaust silencer, but... better fan housing, fuel tank, piping and a double V pulley)
Some cleaning, new oil, bledding, a dozen o crank turns and it fireed up.
Now I'm this cross, I want to go with both along - but this one when it reach the "normal" duty RPM starts to shake.
Good advice will be very aprecciate.
BR
VP
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I'm reading an interesting book at the moment about the British aircraft industry from 1945 till the mid 60's when it was basically finished, lost the plot. The Petter family, who made your engine apparantly also started the Westland Helicopter company. Teddy Petter became English Electric's chief designer, and was pretty much totally responsible for designing the English Electric Lightning, one of Britain's most successful planes of all time. Can't remember offhand, but from take off to 50 000ft took something like 2 minutes. Could only stay airborn for 40 minutes, then needed to find a tanker or land fast.
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Hi Dax021
I had made some digging on Petter's history, and there are several inventors and engeniers that made some spinoffs to their first company.
As you see Lister has clones in India, and so on. It's the price of time.
BR
VP
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Correction to my earlier post. The Lightning would take 2 minutes from "brakes off" to 40 000ft using full afterburners, then only had 15 minutes of fuel left
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Hi Dax021
Amazing, what a great machine.
For now, my real concern is my little PAZ1, which I want give it a nive overhaul and to make it work well.
Br
VP
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Hi Everyone
I need some help finding this parts, for PAZ1:
Fuel tank cap;
Coopers fuel filter bowl.
Thanks in advance.
VP
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Hi Pedrosa, try this. not a perfect replacement and a bit expensive: https://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Cartridge-Fuel-Filter-Assembly-Late-Type.html
Bob
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Hi Bob
Good to hear from you.
That part is a long time ago out of stock, and I subscribed for 'Back-in-stock' notification also. There is a similar on https://www.heating-parts.co.uk/EOGB-MINI-BOWL-FILTER-BIO-1-4-BSP-EQUIVALENT-TO-18489/product/231352/231352/
By now I want to spare as much as possible original parts.
Keep in touch.
Cheers
VP
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Hi Pedrosa, sorry to be out of contact for a while, been busy visiting doctors and trying to sue insurance companies.
You could look at second hand pneumatic lubricators, old ones have glass bowls and are designed for a rubber seal with a locking assembly externally. Stay away from modern lubricators which are made of poly carbonate and degrade with time.
Bob
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Hi Pedrosa
How about on of these?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SINGLE-WATER-SEPARATOR-ASSEMBLY-1-2UNF-FUEL-FILTER-GLASS-BOWL-WITH-DELPHI-HDF296/292041206904?epid=1269257951&hash=item43ff032c78:g:fnsAAOSw9GhYmcoe:rk:7:pf:0
It will keep the orginal look, they've been around for years, as a CAV 296, they can be a bit fiddly to change if they are in a tight location, for you that shouldn't be a problem.
Best of all the elements are one of the cheapest, less than £4 each if you shop around.
Cheers
Stef
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Hi Guys, I agree with Stef this is a very good and common filter. I used them on all sorts of construction plant, very reliable and you can see when they start to clog up, what more could you ask for?
Bob
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Hi Fellows
Me too, but.... if it is my very last option. I want to put value on the engine, and more like it was at it original condition the better.
So, I thank you all for the support, and all advices.
Cheers
VP
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Hi Everyone
Winter has arrived, the cold holds up better than the rain.
I want to wish, first of all, a good Christmas to all.
Regarding the fuel tank cap, and filter bowl, Jim Perkins has been the best and just already sent it (did you know that the oldest partnership in the world is between Portugal and GB, with Port wine?)
Now at the time of a Petter, there are two, which one was for parts (no compression, when I bought it, maybe carbon in valve seat), but as after a vapors of wd40, new oil, bleed, half a dozen turns of crank and started well - only upon reaching the rotations of work was beginning to vibrate.
Dismanteling the big end is badly scored. See attach... and the measurements taken.
Only fly wheel left... I have do make a gibkey puller... I already made a 17/32 from a 13 spanner.
The muffler was missing, but one was already ordered from Station.Eng. Parts, UK, and I have to buy a crank for this, which also did not have ...
The younger one needs more work... fan casing needs welding, fuel tank needs welding... and metal
Things are going... no need to rush.
The Lister 12/2... I have to go get the block out of the shack, and proceed with the repair ... will take some copper ...
Cheers to all
VP
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Main journal looks very good.
The measurements taken:
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Good luck with the project, keep posting as you progress.
Cheers
Stef
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Hi Everyone
Just an Update: One more pair of sheels to buy (there it goes two bottles for the white metal). Thoses ones are 030U/S.
So far pistons and cylinders are clean, with no major out bound clearences...
Pull out flywhells seems to be the harder task. After that a good clean, primer, paint and put all back again.
Marry Christmas
VP
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Hi Pedrosa and Merry Christmas to you and your family.
I`ve seen much worse damage to bearing shells than yours. When you can see the copper plating under the white metal you need to start worrying. I think all will be fine.
Bob
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Hi Everyone
just to make life proof!
The winter is not so wintry, we already have hot sun.
The repairs of the village - the old men do not ask only give orders, and we are here to fulfill them.
2 electric pumps (Italian !!!) to repair.
1 atrophied Chinese generator, and 2 Petter's waiting for D-Day.
The selected metals (lol) for recycling ...
The hardware laboratory;
...
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...
The BOINC cluster ... has a 486 DX2! (to relocate).
A petter handle already with enamel ..
The mechanic's desk ... This is the work in progress; (The lister 12/2 is not forgotten).
For Butch and Bob, a candy to say what this is. (a clue: it has to be done before proceeding to the next stage of the works, and the threaded rods are steel 8,8 - pic 4)
...
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...
The white board, and yes, it's really 1:17: Good morning, Australia.
And for now I do not bother you anymore.
Have a good week.
Cheers
VP
PS: Jim Perkins had been a very good fellow... send already the stuf I needed.
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Hi Pedrosa, I`m guessing you are building some sort of trolley to make your Petter more mobile, let us know how you get on, are you going to put wheels on it?
Bob
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Hi Bob
Good to ear from you.
Trolleys will be done later, for now its a homemade hydraulic press made with a 5 ton bottle jack.
We are also waiting to see your CS smoking!
Cheers
VP
PS: and yes, I already bought the wheels, they came from Spain. here is the link: https://www.todocontenedores.com/producto/rueda-en-hierro-fundido-alta-resistencia-natural.html
They only transport in Spain. 16.33 €+vat
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Wow, love those wheels, brand new 8 inch cast iron wheels for about $25. I haven`t been able to find anything like that i Australia.
Bob
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Hello people
For everything there is always a first time, and this time was the acetylene torch to make a large patch.
I had in mind that things do not always go the way we want ... but.
With the necessary care I made a few stitches to fix the patch, but from a certain point it began to buckle, and some holes in the time of closing ... opened more.
It was not very aesthetic, but the biggest problem was not getting it tight. The micro holes (with compressed air and detergent) never stopped.
Stays the experience - less one of red - and look for another tank that has no holes.
Well, there's the cap that was chrome-plated at zero cost.
Things are going ...
Cheers
VP
PS: The generator of my parents already snores.
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As a last resort with the tank, if you're down to a few pinholes which simply won't braze, you could try soft solder. Just be careful rubbing it back before paint in case you open them up again!
I once tried to braze an old petrol tank for my Vauxuhall Senator - well, Dad did, as he could braze, I've never tried. It was all going OK-ish, except the water in the tank was sucking the heat away so fast we were struggling to get the braze to stick; accidentally let the water level go too low and Poof! Tank expanded like a balloon, and the flame out of the filler neck burnt a perfectly circular hole in Dad's jumper! :laugh: :laugh: We were lucky it wasn't any worse... the tank was toast, though; not only was it now severely misshapen, but the explosion opened up about a million new little holes... Had to buy a new tank!
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To save the eyebrows there are several products like this available....
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POR15-Fuel-Car-Bike-Tank-Repair-Sealer-8oz-Fuel-Tank-S201/302310635103?epid=648783513&hash=item46631e365f:g:cCIAAOSw5cRZEYnc:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true
Cheers
Stef
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JBweld (putty or regular) or steel filled epoxy of other brands is also effective and durable.
The tank for my CS is a 15 gallon drum with JBwelded fittings, ABS filler neck. 10 years of bio and dino diesel so far. JBweld is only used as a filler/sealer for mechanically secure bulkhead type plumbing on the wet (bottom) fittings. Tacky but it does work reliably.
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Hi Everyone
Just updating the hidr. press task...
Have a nice day.
VP
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Hi Everyone
A coat of rust converter to look nice...
I'm not sure if I should add another half a meter and make a few legs and wide feet, or if I leave it small to work on the bench. Anyone want to give an opinion?
Note: I will leave only 25 ~ 30 cm tall useful for work.
All the best
VP
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I would leave it as it is. you don't need to use it every day, so most of the time it will be in the way, particularly if you have a small workshop - like most on here, Butch, Ed Dee you know who you are!
I would consider making a fixing on the bench so that it can be quickly mounted, firmly, for use and leave it at that. Doubtless, in the future you'll be modifying it for a one off task anyway!
Cheers
Stef
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Hi Stef
Thanks for your reply.
My bench is small, and fixing it will turn it smaller - and you are right, I don't need to use it every day.
I'll give it a corner in the shop to showoff the emanel...
All the best
VP
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What size are the threaded rods? I don;t think they will be able to take a lot of pressure. It would be more reliable as a box shape with an adjustable bed I'd have thought. Just my 2 bobs worth
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There are 4 'rods', assuming they are only 16mm, the nominal working load, in tension, is around 800 kg each, multiply by 4 = 3.2 tonnes safe working load, they ain't going to get broke by that 5 tonne Chinese jack, even allowing for uneven loading.
If there's a bigger jack involved only one will let go, after it's bounced off the ceiling there won't be too much drama! re drill for 20mm studding and try again.....
Cheers
Stef
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Hi JD
16mm 8.8 steel.
is just to remove valve guides and bushes, bearings - nothing that needs brute force.
it's just a 5-ton jack, if I need more, I'm going to a bigger workshop.
For now it will do just fine.
BR
VP
PS: Stef got the picture. Stef, it's 8.8 steel rods... and the ceiling over the bench is 1,9m on top is a cement floor where I throw materials, and other stuffs ... and where I keep the pieces already painted and wrapped up so they do not get damaged. So no drama at all!
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Fair enough, it's quite an interesting looking machine. I tend to over engineer everything I make, belt, braces and a bit extra.
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Belt, braces, and a bit of string,
Any doubt left, add a safety pin.
Having had a large portion of my career at sea, the word 'preventer' is never very far from my mind when setting up something that is going to cause me untold grief when I cock it up in my usual cavalier fashion.
NASA came up with 'fail safe' and 'fail soft' quite a few years back, deep sea sailors had been doing it for centuries.
And I've still got most of all of my fingers......
Cheers
Stef
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Hi Everyone
Finally the hydraulic press gained legs and feet.
All that remains is to fix the top of jack, and the extractor stud.
I preferred to give it legs to stand in a corner of the workshop, and also to get more height so I could work (I'm not getting younger).
Opinions are wellcome!
Cheers
VP
PS: Cotiemme engine of the reaper is striped and bathing...
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Nice work, SP.
I've all the bits to make one for myself, all I need is some time.......
Cheers
stef
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Very nice work Pedrosa, I do miss having access to a hydraulic press, it makes light work of even the toughest bushes. We also had a full set of broaches with which to cut key ways in pulleys or gears. I do miss having the tools even if I can`t use them anymore.
Bob
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VERY impressive I'd like that myself. Very well done
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Hello everyone
Let me then publish the recipe:
Hydraulic jacks> = 5ton.
50cm UPN/E 140 (table);
50cm UPN/E 120 (top);
43cm UPN/E 100 (crosspiece to fix the jack, adjust the measurement when necessary);
4 * 10cm of tube 20mm for the guides of the crosspiece (attention to the tolerances in the drilling of the beams);
2 * 6,5cm in steel L 45mm / 50mm, to fix the crosspiece to the guides;
140cm in steel L 45mm / 40mm for the shelf (50 * 20cm), works like the knees of the legs, and serves to have brass and the various push rods);
2 * 50cm in steel L 45mm / 50mm for foot locking;
2 * 50cm UPN/E 65 ... 80, for the feet;
4 threaded rods of 16mm, steel 8.8, for the press;
2 * 16mm threaded rods, 4.8 steel (normal), to cut in half and make the legs;
8 unions 16mm, 4 to join the rods and 4 to the table;
N 16mm washers;
28 to 32, 16mm nuts;
12 cm of 40mm steel rod for the extractor, turned and with 8mm thread for screwing in the crosspiece, underneath the jack;
2 or 4 springs to raise the crossbar with the jack, with 2 hooks to the top;
N 6mm bolts and nuts to fix the guides on the crossbar, and the fixing of the springs on the guides;
3 * (10cm * 5cm * 3mm) of steel plate to fix the top jack head, or other such invention;
Attention that the welds can shrink the measurements between guides!
Then just paint ...
My drilling was centered at 45cm * 6.5cm, but be aware that it was due to material limitations, because the steel was seized from debris that went to the scrap.
For imperial measures adapt ...
have a good job.
Cheers.
VP
PS: the idea was taken from the net, but it works!
PS2: the table can be lowered or raised as required.
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Hi Everyone
I hope everyone is healthy, especially Bob, who is a concern among us.
The hydraulic press is made, there is already the shelf and the extractor pin, and I have already inserted the valve guides into the Petter's head.
The engine of the reaper is already in the closing phase, and the critical phase only highlights the fine tuning of the valves tappets, to get the correct gap.
Good week.
BR
VP
Ps:the pull pin has a 5cm extender, which can be inserted between the crosspiece and the pin.
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Hello everyone
Finally we have some developments in dismantling the Petter's - I'll say more that it's a step ahead and a step and a half back.
Made the conical wedge to remove the gibkeys, one gib broke, and the other took off well.
"If you don't own a dog, catches with a cat" - it was improvised a fly wheel puller with a bottle jack. It is not easy ...
Let me see how things go.
Cheers
VP
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That's how I got the flywheels off my CS, only I used chain rather than studding.
I'ts amazing what you can do with a cat, if you don't have a dog.....
Cheers
Stef
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Hi Stef
It didn't move.
Now I'm following Jim Perkins's advice, I've removed the flywheel with the crankshaft, to drop end of crank on a concrete floor so this will allow flywheel mass to move... he said!
Let's see ... Meanwhile the sump and the oil pump is already clean.
Cheers
VP
PS: Now is time to trobleshoot dishwasher. Always something to entertain!
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I don't know if it will help, but you could try using 5% ATF (car steering fluid) in acetone as a penetrating fluid. I think I read about it on here.
Keep putting plenty on, load the 20 tonne jack up as much as you dare, and then pack ice around the shaft. keep hitting it with a hammer (not to hard, don't damage anything) as well.
Cheers
Stef
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Hi Stef
It was soaked with ATF for mounths!
By now I think only pacience and brains, to prevent damage.
BR
VP
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50% ATF 50% Acetone
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Hi VP, sorry not to have been in touch but I`ve been in hospital.
Stef is right, if you can cool the shaft and heat the flywheel it will come apart. You could mount it in your new hydraulic press. If all else fails you could buy a pipe freezing pack from you local plumbers store, this should get the shaft down to around minus 20 degrees centigrade. If that does not work, run a large bead of weld around the outside of the flywheel boss with an electric arc welder, do it both ends of the boss. You will have to grind the weld material off later but who cares how you got it off as long as it is off!
Bob
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Hi Everyone
It's done... finally, like Jim Perkins said. And that piece of spring blade gave utility. And yes, I gave it some heat in the flywheel
Let's go up!
Cheers
VP
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Well done VP, hope you didn`t damage the concrete floor.
Bob
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Hi Everyone
Hello Bob, is that hand recovering? Everything went well, The floor had the card board, that piece of truck spring blade with 2cm thickness, and above a piece of MDF for cushion.
Now it is begin to remove the parts from the basket, primary paint, and then enamel MBG. Cutting paper joints, puting screws...
One day at a time.
Cheers
VP
PS:Bob answer to email I sent.
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I`ll check my email.
bob
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Hi Everyone
Special thanks to Bob, and a wish of a quick recovery of his hand, (he will need it!).
There's nothing like seeing a machine "dressing up". Take a look!
Have a holy Easter, or another celebration that reminds us that Saint Peter will need to illuminate Paradise with, maybe a CS or, perhaps, a Petter...
Be Happy, please.
VP
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Hi Everyone
Just updating work:
Straitening oil piping, and make trolley project (on old milimetric sheet)
Be happy
VP
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Hi Everyone
Today was a good day.
I finally managed to find a store that produced the MBGreen painting.
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Before painting I had to repair the "office clothes", sew holes and put elastic for protection.
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I still have a headache to solve, and remove the broken gibkey.
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No doubt that green is really beautiful ... see the "clothes-line"
Things are going...
Have a nice weekend.
VP
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"He's taking shape!"
the other one is taking "plan B" on that gibkey.
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Hi Everyone
Some more work: oil piping done, cylinder and head "torqued".
A pair of pics for the enthusiasts.
Cheers
VP
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Good work.
I'm looking forward to hearing it run.
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It's starting to look pretty!
Cheers
Stef
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Your'e doing a lovely job I can't wait to see your video of her running.
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Hi Everyone
I hope everything is ok, especially with Bob.
More improvements. And it's getting nice. Decoration included...
A picture is worth a thousand words...
cheers
VP
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Hi Everyone
Some more cosmetic details, like shop manual point out, with red paint.
And mesure bumping clearance (fancy way, with tin [soldering] wire). It's in the top range, so the compression ratio will be smooth.
Lets see how it behaves at cold start...
Oil piping is primed and pressure seems ok.
Cheers
VP
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Hi Everyone
Injector tested to right pressure, and assembled in place.
Injector pipe is taking a copper layer, to look nice.
Cheers
VP
PS: Decompressor lever adjusted also.
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Wow, well done VP, she is going to be a beauty. Can`t wait to see her running.
Bob
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Hello everyone
Let me give you a brief summary of the last parallel tasks I have been involved with:
1st PAZ1 - it's being a headache, gibkey broken with the wedge, 2nd attempt with threaded rod and it jumped out. Now I urgently need a 5 / 16BSF socket to remove the crankshaft (main bearing housing).
To be continued...
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More 2 pics from 1st...
2nd PAZ1 - was destined to give parts to the 1º, but in the end was in better condition, and was easier to disassemble. Now it's almost set up to work.
Nothing like some pics.
Cheers
VP
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Well done VP, very nice pics of how to remove a damaged gib key. I have always suspected that the heat shock from the welding process helps to loosen the stuck key. I have used the same process myself with good results. I have also found that by applying a constant tension on the gib key over a prolonged period helps, especially if you can apply a little heat.
You are lucky to have a donor engine and are quite right to pick the best parts from each to produce one good one. Please try to ensure that, unless you are fitting new bearings and bushes, you need to fit the old bushes/bearings in the correct position for to original shafts. Failure to do this is not going to be a disaster but will result in a short period of wear until the old, non matching parts bed into one another.
Keep up the good work, I think you will beat me to first smoke but it was never a race!
Bob
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Hi Bob
Thanks for your appreciation. Indeed it's not a race, because I have to fulfill my daily job, and you must take care of your hand.
I'm enrolled to recover both, maybe after I'll sell one. Lets see how things go on.
Cheers
VP
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Hi Everyone
Further developments:
Trying Stef way to pull off flywheel in 1st Petter and not moving a mil. I'll try again Jim Perkins way, but - always a but - fist withdraw last 3 srews of main bearing housing, and for that I must buy a 5/16BSF socket.
For 2nd, the last part is done to fire it up. fuel injection pipe cooper plated. beautiful...
Next, bleed and crank... I'll try to make a video.
Cheers
VP
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Hi Everyone
test syringe with diesel, bleed, and crank.
Some pics before video.
It runs... See the video here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Xu8nECtnM2Kog1-7JDi-sxWxU8MjFnzM
Be happy
VP
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A class act, well done!
Cheers
Stef
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Well done VP, looks and sounds great you should be very proud of yourself. Do you know what you are going to use it for?
Bob
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Hi Everyone
It's all most done...
Some more fine tuning, and trolley.
Cheers
VP
PS: Bob, I'm asking everywhere for an old alternator ~2,5 kva with pulley, and the answer is: thats very old and therefore goes to recycle. So by now is just to showoff.
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Very nice work VP. She looks like a nice smooth runner.
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Well done VP, you did not disappoint.
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Hi Everyone
A few more pounds of patience, and a more lateral approach to the problem, I was able to remove the last bolts from the main bearing housing. Once again, the Jim Perkins method turned out to be perfect.
Now just clean, primer paint, MBG paint, mount everything and the other Petter already has mate.
Have a nice week.
VP
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Hi Everyone
All clean and painted with primer. Separate parts, cut joints...
Have a nice week.
VP
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Hi VP, sorry to have been out of contact for a while. Looks to me like you have been having a lot of fun while I have been away. Well done, keep up the good work. I`m looking forward to getting back to some of my projects by the end of the month.
Bob
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Hi Bob
I saw in other post, you are working arround issus.
As we say here "to improve is fine, for worse it is enough!"
While you have been out, my fun was splitting the Leslie wood for winter in village, and clean the Lister sump.
Meanwhile, this "1st" Petter is getting shape. It has had a hard life, very indeed. The fan casing has some patches, and a bunch of welding.
I'll give it the best face I can.
All the best for you and family
VP
PS: see your mail.
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Hi VP, all your hard work looks to producing great results, sadly it just makes me feel older and less capable. I can`t wait to get back to being productive and having something to post on the forum.
Bob
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Hi Everyone
I forgot to show my Bernard's signature, so here it goes... (it is in PT lang but what matters is the beginning) https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eA4kiglnbFnQm2-qBeP_xpLKRZGzJNBo/view?usp=sharing
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Well done VP, another piece of our heritage saved from the scrap man. Perhaps you should start crowd funding to build a museum to put all your restored engines in. The way you are going it will need to be a big museum!
Bob
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Hi Evereyone
Bob, don't worry about the museum... It's just some 50's madness.
I'm coming back from basement... closed crankcase, torque cylinder and head, timing and starting to straighten oil tubing.
Time to go bed.
Cheers
VP
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Well done VP, I think your talents are wasted in the police force. If you are as committed as a policeman as you are as an engineer the criminal class are in deep trouble.
It is now six weeks since my Wife`s surgery and eight weeks since mine. I have been given the green light by my doctor and wife to start restoring engines again. I have ordered a whole lot of parts for the ETB and am hoping to have it running in August.
Just so you know, we sat up late last night and drank the Mateus Rose to celebrate my Daughters wedding, it was very good, not like the Mateus available in the UK. I guess you keep the good stuff for home consumption! :laugh:
Bob
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Hi Bob
I'm very glad you appreciate it, just because you deserve it.
In our life, simple things, and sometime tiny, can make a huge difference.
We all have our sins. Now I know I have one less...
By now think priorly in fully recovery of your hands...and Narelle.
Have a safe week.
Cheers
VP
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Just an update
Today I received a Petter "head cover". See pic.
A pamper from Jim.
Cheers
VP
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Hi Everyone
It's almost done! Oil piping copper plated... fancy isn't it?
Just waiting for the oil seal and new gibkey from UK, and after I'll give it the first crank.
Fuel tank still an issue to solve... but i'll make it.
Have good weekend
VP
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while the parts do not arrive to finish the machine ...
One more water pump (Italian) seized in repairing after 10 years of service.
A primer paint to hold on for a few more years, a pair of new bearings, lubrication, stainless steel screws, a fan harnessed from another pump and is ready to install again.
Have a good week.
VP
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Hi Everyone
First project it's almost done!
After fine tuning the new gibkey, and tap it, it's ready to be fired up... Same modus operandi of the other one.
This one took me almost a year to rebuild.
Nothing like a pic with the before and now.
Cheers
VP
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It's a fabulous restoration well done, looking forward to seeing her running.
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Beautiful restoration work; even copper plating on the injection lines. Wow!
Well done, VP!
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Many thanks
But... let me see if it pays my efforts.
Remember that the fuel tank still a pain in the arse... to stanch it.
Lets see how it behaves.
Cross fingers...
Cheers
VP
Ps: all tubing is copper plated... to give it some charm.
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Another nice one, next you'll be opening a museum!
Cheers
Stef
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Hi Everyone
As promised, I made 2 videos (the cameraman is amateur, but the intention is that it counts).
I had already tested it once, but it knocked a bit, so I added a paper shim (I do not have steel ones) of 20/100.
In the first video I forgot to open the fuel cock, and it starved: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jJCQIi17ujkIfuUqhE51UvSfqdjhDiMB/view?usp=sharing
but in the second video as you see it is softer: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JwQe7dYk_enDMLN2t6SFZbftOpz-fpHg/view?usp=sharing
The injection point is more finely tuned, and this can be seen forcing it to rotate at very low speed, without stopping
Thanks for all support
Cheers
VP
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Congratulations VP, a job well done.
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Well done VP, another fine piece of work and an excellent end product.
Bob
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Hi Everyone
Here is the video of the 2 units working aside, as promised: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12buhNQtJIgAmGI2WEUOkxCw5Rn_pgb4P/view?usp=sharing
Cheers
VP
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Smooth running on those very lightweight dollies! Bravo!
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Hi Everyone
Fuel tank is getting shape...
Cheers
VP
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Hi Everyone
Now it looks nice... well, I decided to fit a fuel tap, just is case the line leaks!
And it needs a new fuel hose from filter to tap.
Have a shiny day.
VP
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Hi Everyone
Beams to make one trolley in french oak. 120€. Expensive... very expensive!
Have a good weekend.
VP
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Updating!
Trolly axle of the 416 is getting shape, and, finally, tap and fuel line of the 425 was placed.
Next, trolleys for both.
Have a nice weekend.
VP
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Hello everyone
Today I met a collector. Oh my! but a serious man and therefore a good man.
On a hill, 30 km from me. I saw a genhead advertised on the internet, and it says it doesn't work.
I got there to have a look. He said the windings were deteriorated.
It seemed good mechanically, and I discussed the price with him (practically scrap price), accepted it, and already dismantled it.
Check out the photos I need help with identifying it (the character plate has no letters on it).
I need help here on everything, please.
Cheers
VP
I think this is american plugs!
Anyone can identify the brand by the latch characters?
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More pics to help...
Fan with threaded rod, slip rings, and tapared tip of shaft.
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And more...
Multimeter readings in rotor and windings in ohms.
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more 4 pics...
Windings, Rectifier bridge, and a few figures in plate.
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Hi VP, I don`t recognize that generator however it is in a very similar condition to one I am working on. Mine is a 32 volt DC generator with an integral starter motor.
We both have the same problem with cloth covered rubber insulation having broken down. I will be striping the cloth insulating tape of each coil and soldering new wires in place before recovering the coils and varnishing them. I will probably start doing this tomorrow and will post some photos showing how it is done.
Here are a couple of photos of the coils as they are now.
Bob
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Hi Bob
My multimeter figures tell anything to you?
Cheers
VP
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Hi VP, the figures look good. The two things you do not want to see are 0 ohms (burned out with a short circuit) and infinity or open circuit (burned out with broken wires)
Looks like you got lucky so far. Been thinking about that generator and the letters PL, could it be that it is LP for Lister Petter? As far as I know neither Lister or Petter ever made their own generator heads, instead they bought them from outside sources like Brush, Markon and Dunlite but I might be wrong.
I do not know what nationality have that sort of electrical outlet, some countries in Europe have similar outlets. I am hoping it is not an American unit as it will be 110 Volt rather than 240 volt as used in Europe. If it is a 110 volt unit it may be possible to convert it to 240 volt depending on how it is wired. I would recommend that you visit your local airport or supermarket/hardware store and purchase an international electrical travel adapter and find out which one fits.
I will be starting to renovate the coils on my little generator tomorrow and will post some pics and info as I go.
Bob
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Hi Bob
Butch give also a hand, and he says the unit seem like a WINPOWER, and searching further I conclude for his opinion.
This unit have several hours of work - says seller - and is 220V, or 2*110, because wires of stator are connected serial.
It was direct connected to a Hatz engine, hand I think it will be a 3000rpm.
Lets see how it goes.
Cheers
VP
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Well done VP, yes it will run at 1500 or 3000 for 50 HZ or it will run 1800 or 3600 for 60 HZ, I am guessing at 3 KVA continuous but will cope with 5 KVA for short periods. The voltage regulation is via the bridge rectifier, as the current demand increases the current being fed through the field windings also increases thus regulating the voltage, the voltage stability is governed by the accuracy and response of the governor on the driving engine. It is possible to replace the bridge rectifier with an automatic voltage regulator to improve the output stability. If you want to run sensitive electronic devices I would recommend an AVR, if you want to run lights and power tools don`t worry about it.
Please pass on my best wishes to Butch.
Bob
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Hi VP, I started on rewiring the 60 year lighting plant today. The cloth covered rubber insulation on the wires has perished and they all need to be replaced. I am hoping your new generator head is in better condition but if not I am hoping that my approach to this will help you.
First thing to understand is that this unit has four sets of coil windings one set for north/south pole for generation and a second set for turning the generator into a starter motor. The set I have been playing with today is the starter motor windings. They are solid copper windings with a cloth insulation. When these were made the cloth would have been in perfect condition, they would have wound the coil around a former and then soldered on the external wires as needed. The coil would then have been tied up tight, with cloth, before the whole thing was immersed in varnish. Back in the 1950`s this would probably have been a shellac based varnish.
This process ensured good insulation between the coil and also fixed them in place to ensure no movement or chafing between the layers, under load. So what can we do to restore them without having to send them for an expensive rewind? The first thing is to check the resistance between each end of the coil. We do not want to see either 0 ohms or infinity ohms, in between is good.
The second job is to very carefully remove the cloth covering that holds the coil together, this will give access to the soldered connections between the solid copper core and the more flexible interconnection wires. Now cut out the damaged wires and replace them using crimp connectors with the plastic covering removed. (be sure to clean the wires before trying to solder them) Crimp them tight and then solder them in place, now cover the joint with heat shrink, I like to use two layers of heat shrink
The next job is to put some surgical tape around any part of the coil that has movement in it, now immerse the entire coil assembly in polyurethane varnish, let it soak right in before removing and allowing to dry, brush off any excess varnish to avoid drips/runs and etc. Leave to dry.
Next is to wrap the coil to make sure it cannot come apart. I have tried all sorts of insulation and cloth tapes and have found that Micropore surgical tape is second to none; it is cheap, strong, porous, self adhesive and readily available but most important of all the adhesive does not dissolve in polyurethane varnish. Once you have wrapped your coil with Micropore tape it`s back for another swim in varnish, pull it out, brush off any drips or runs and let it dry for a day or two.
When done it should look something like the photos below.
Bob
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Hi Bob
You are indeed a handyman. I'm light years from you. This only shows you have had a hard life, but overcome everything.
My last improvements, were search deep int the net to get every info available.
I'm writing to WINCO (USA), that acquired WINPOWER (quote), but documentation lost (as always, because nobody look at it as a asset).
As you can see in pics my stator winding are shorted, dispite showing resistence.
Next days will give a visit to a winding shop nearby.
I'll keep posting some news.
Stay safe
VP
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Hi All
updating: just received age of the gen head from WINCO (Bob Baron, Service Technician) saying: "The serial number said it was made in 1973 and that was the model. Other than there is no data available."
Not bad so far...
VP
PS: He says the model is BM2B2-B, but I think it will be a earlier model, like 2nd pic, a FM model.
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Well done VP, looks like your detective work is starting to pay off, lets hope one of our American cousins has a service manual hidden away.
Bob
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Hi Bob
They send several, but their site got plenty available. See here: https://www.wincogen.com/wp-content/uploads/PD/
I'll share it in my Gdrive.
Nice weekend to all.
VP
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Hi Gentle
One more step to the gen head.
"A good brushing and cleaning gives a new life".
A V pulley 1,5" saved, polished and varnished.
Happy day for everyone.
VP
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Hi Everyone
While the morning was cool I went for a walk in the garden to pull out the sweet potatoes ... not bad for a 10m row. The other have to wait maybe one or two more weeks.
After that, pressing new bearings in gen's rotor, and primer paint in some bits.
Have a sunny day.
VP
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Well done VP, looks like the crops are going as well as your engine rebuilds.
I have been busy restoring old generator coils, nothing wrong with the coils just the insulation on the wires coming out of them. Got the coils back in the generator today, looking good so far.
Bob
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Hi Bob
Just passing by to say you make the factory, that produced your gen head, red of shame, about the quality of your work.
Words for what? pics are enough evidence!
Have a safe day.
VP
Ps: next Thursday I will help my parents to harvest grapes to make wine.
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Hi Everyone
Gen head is back from shop. Now it will get paint and a custom pulley, to make 220v/50hz @ 1500 rpm engine with a 5in double V pulley.
Take a look of the shop job... They put a new bridge. They charged me 80€, lets see if it worth!
See shop page here: https://ebalvelos.wordpress.com/
Cheers
VP
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Hi Everyone
"Man shall not live on bread alone..." but have some sweet potatoes too (my way).
Last row pulled this morning: 10m - 46,8 kg (~100 pounds), next year it will be more, but first they have to be planted.
FWIW, making plans to connect PAZ1 to gen head.
Have a nice weekend
VP
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Lovely crop of sweet potatoes!
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Nice VP, you are a man of many talents
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Dax, and all members
We have - all of us - 3 social attributes. Education (parents to sons), instruction (teachers to students), and formation (what we do with education and instruction, intrinsic to ourselves).
Now make a combination 3 to 3 of this atributes.
I'd rather to have the best 3 of them: good education, good instuction, and good formation, but...
I'm just human, and I can not full fill, every hour, those 3 attributes.
I've my sins - evereone has their sins - our limitations.
Don not blame me - at this hour - about my limitations - it will be not fair.
Just my thoughts.
VP
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Hi Gentles
PAZeddes trolleys are going (slowly). Legs and handles are made, and gen head is getting painted.
Axles are waiting to be welded...
Things are going....
Cheers
VP
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Hi All
Gen head is done. It only need to fit a pulley of right size to give 220V*50Hz, with the PAZ1 @ 1500rpm.
Cheers
VP
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Hi Gentels
Maintance of my both PAZ1's.
One kart do finish, and the gen head to another. Look here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-NAconZy0-OYGRioBhrbbMmkYJldl29F/view?usp=sharing
Cheers
VP
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Hi Gentles
Kart for the 416 is "dressing up". It will look nice!
Cheers
VP
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Hi Gentles
Kart for the 416 complete, and the irons already have one coat of primer.
pics.
1 - self learning - trial and fail - rod welding. It won't break for sure;
2 - Leveling the footpaths;
3 & 4 - Final product.
Cheers
VP
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Hi Gentles
1st kart is finished and waiting for after lunch "muscles crane" to put the iron on.
One pics as appetizer...
Cheers
VP
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Hi Gentles
One part of PAZ1s is donne and ready to rally.
Nothing like a pic and a vid.
Cheers
VP
PS: Forgot to put links to videos, here it go...
Vid_1: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LSYHW7jOjU_8tN2aEdBEzvodgm-Uxsl7/view?usp=sharing
Vid_2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SDWNLokdhDVCiIX94lJ06a6LdSW-JrDF/view?usp=sharing
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That's a superb job you've done! Looks fantastic...
Now all you need is something (an alternator, or water pump, for example) to belt up to it for rallys, and you'll have a lovely display.
A rally favourite is the "magic tap", which has water coming out of the spigot but no apparent connection to a pipe... e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EboJj8xv0Wo
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Hi Ade
This kart and engine will stay as it is - by now.
I've been made drawings to next kart (for PAZ1 425xxx) and the genhead for it is only waiting a pulley from... China.
Lests see!
Cheers
VP
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Hi Gentles
A "A"class belt, 2 groves pulley fitted in genhead, after turned to shaft spec.
Things are going... slowly, but not halted.
Have a Merry Xtmas all.
Cheers
VP
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sirpedrosa,
I just viewed your video of the Petter running.
That is a beautiful engine !
You did a great job of refurbishing and mounting it.
I would love to have a Petter also but very few were imported to my country.
Nice job !
veggie
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Hi Veggie
Have a Happy year, if not yet!
2nd cart waiting for chestnut tree wood, and a pair of swivel casters, to make the genny.
cheers
VP
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Hi Gentles
Engine log book for all rebuilded engines.
Cheers
VP
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Hi Gentles
Today I looked to may press, and realised it is an amazing tool, not only for bushing or bearing, but also to glue my shoe!
Nothing like a pic...
Cheers
VP
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Hi Gentles
With all this idling life, and stores closed, geted a tip of pipe to make a support to stow start handle in the cart.
All cut and welded, angle grinder decide to blow a ball bearing at middle of job. It's all in a days's work!
Strip, clean... buy new set of bearings (after all it's stripped) and finish the job.
Cheers, and stay safe.
VP
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Hi Gentles
Resuming task... back on trak.
Stay safe
VP
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Hi Gentles
Just 2 pics to show off. one with general idea, and other show detail of the ratchet holder.
Cheers
VP
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More nice work!
And you repaired the angle grinder rather than throwing it away and buying a new one.....
Stay Safe
Cheers
Stef
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Hi Stef
3 ball bearing 7€. The nearby retailer had it in stock, so he pass bearings under the door and same did I with payment.
This angle grinder has been refurbish for several times, it has 15 years, and countless hours work. The inside gear case has the brass bushing with some worn.
Stay safe.
VP
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Hi Gentles
Start handle holder done, and a vid to stretch the connecting rod for a few minutes, so that the dust comes out of the cylinder fins... and boredom!
Here in FB: https://www.facebook.com/valdemar.pedrosa/videos/2935924463141315/?t=289
Stay Safe
VP
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Hi Gentles
Nothing like a pic of before state to appreciate our work.
Cheers
VP
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Hi Gentles
While life is idling, and stores closed we got to invent something to do.
This time a prototype trolley for 425 unit and seeing the set and offset of gen head, and wheels.
2 pics for enthusiasts.
Stay safe.
VP
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Hi VP, you seem to have an endless supply of old engines to restore. I'm sure it keeps you pretty busy, where do you find the time to do police work? :)
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Hi Dax
Just the 2 Petter, the Lister and Bernard, we can call engines; other are some pieces of junk I toke a few time and patience to see what they had to give.
The Force work is fine, people understand this times are not to joke, and I just lead the team.
Another rust piece of iron came from village to see if it come to life. A sickle bar mower, we call it comb mower. Engine is already restored.
2 pics for the curious.
Stay safe.
VP
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VP, you are lucky. Our understaffed police force have got their hands full trying to enforce the lockdown rules. Too many people in South Africa are just ignoring the call to stay at home and are out riding their motorbikes or driving around in their cars for fun. More people have been arrested for breaking lockdown rules, than have contracted the virus. Our government has just authorized 72 000 soldiers to be deployed to assist the police.
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Hi Gentles
PAZ1 thread reach 20th+ views.
It's always a pleasure when byond the project it self, and guest and members can appreciate and get some ideas for their projects too.
Tkanks to everyone.
Stay safe.
VP
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Hi Gentles
Taking a few time to give a clean face to my BIB (Burette Industrielle de Besançon) nº 1 french oil can. A pearl!
Stay safe.
VP
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Hi Gentles
As usually a Sunday afternoon, traditional engine maintenance, with a 30min run.
Take a look at FB: https://www.facebook.com/valdemar.pedrosa/videos/pcb.3459340470764210/3190812117652547/?type=3&ifg=1&__tn__=HH-R&eid=ARB5dtEsrk6MkIPEnh-OR-UfzdnLCPJjnKholMZdzx5NgTQuoSPJo36PKSS-V1QKS_CJ5kkeNAsHDl2_
Stay safe
VP
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Hi Gentles
No, its not a new project, neither new trolley. Just a tweak to see new look of trolley.
Start handle won new place too.
4 pics and a vid in FB. 1 before, and 3 now. the vid is here: https://www.facebook.com/valdemar.pedrosa/videos/3226770380723387/?t=0
Stay safe
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Hi VP, I`ve been off the Forum for about ten months. Looks like you have been busy and the quality of your work is now spectacular. I`m loving the oak frame and cast iron wheels on this, I do hope you are going to be showing some of your engines at local stationary engine rallies.
I now have satellite internet access and phone communication but it is very slow, expensive and limited in band width. Working hard at cleaning up the mess left by the fires and getting approval to build a replacement house.
Bob
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Hi Bob
Nice, very nice to hear from you.... again!
I know you are killing yourself with work!!!!! But at least stay safe.
Had you solve the 6/1 rpm issu?
Im trying to get a Bamford SD4 to amuse, see here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=9121.msg105551#msg105551
Cheers
VP
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Hi Gentles
6 inches casters already arrived from China... and they sent wrong wheels, in the right fork.
Fortunately I have a spair pare of "really" 6 inchs wheels (from spain), and changed them. Later ill see what to do with wrong ones!
Now I have to get a hard wood to make trolley for Petter 425xxxxx, with generator.
Lets see how its goes!
Meanwhile Im making a A frame crane, or Gantry crane!
Stay safe.
VP
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Hi Gentles
After getting more steel to make the crane, here is the latest developments:
Making plan to set angle of triangle, and trim bottom of pillars in order to be squared to weld wheels plate.
A few pics to enjoy.
VP
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Hi Gentles
Well, steel took its place in the jig (the wall and the floor with a bubble level, and a few sharps of wood to made all square).
A few knee calculations, and a fast read in NASA's welding book (dindnt work, or my reading couldnt get it). I made Stef's (dieselspaner) way: weld, angle grinder, weld again, a soft touch with angle grinder, and voilá! if not, repeat cicle!
After being satisfied, got supper.
Some pics for our members.
And, please stay safe.
VP
Ps: beam will be also 3" tube thicker wall, with a 2,5" thicker wall tube inside to reinforce (both 2m length). I'm expecting to lift my 12/2 with this crane. Any thoughts will be appreciated.
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Hi Gentles
Some more cutting, drilling and grinding. A few measures by eyeball...
Tomorrow a few more rods will be burned.
Slowly we will get there!
Stay safe.
VP
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Hi Gentles
A crane is almost done. put it on wheels to see leveling and squareness.
Still have a design flaw... can you identify it? Feel free to give some opinion!
Stay safe
VP
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Looking good, VP. I enjoy following your projects! Per your wish, I do note one issue:
The fore/aft forces on the legs have no bracing or diagonals so the legs might bend fore and aft from the engine. They are already braced well for outward splay by the lower brace. Gusset plates on the legs where they attach to the center lifting beam might be one solution for this, leaving the center clear for the engine.
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Hi gentles, and specially Bruce
Thanks Bruce for identifying the Z axis flaw.
Take a look for the solution I'm preparing, I will do the locking between the beam extension and the legs. (extension protrudes 0,5m inside, and out of the beam).
Off course it will need more improvements, but it will get somewhere!
Stay all safe.
VP
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That should do it, VP. Well done.
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Hi Gentles
After a while out, Im back again... just to show crane legs with primary paint.
Stay safe.
VP
PS: manage to do for first time gun painting... not bad for a noob.
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Hi Gentles
My apologies to not share in last post some TLC to my latest acquisition, a Hilux 1992, that needed to tweak the injection pump (spill time was set a beat early, making it to sound a dry knock).
To pull out crank pulley I made some basic tools from "NASA's" plans, in order to reach the timing belt.
A few pics to enjoy...
VP
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Hi Gentles
Gantry crane is done, and aproved.... by wife.
It only needs to be tested with the desired load limit!.
Cheers
VP
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Nicely done! The swing for testing adds scale; It's big!
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Hi Gentles
Please give me some lights here: Im wondering to make a simple log splitter with one of these Petters.
But for this task I need some help, this site (https://www.dieselworldmag.com/diesel-engines/petter-paz1-diesel-engines) states that the "peak torque value of 11 lbs-ft occurred at 1500 rpm".
That said, I need to know what kind of hydraulic pump I need (Im looking for a 2 stage, due to its way of work, specialy in low pressure) in order this engine can go with it (I think I need also some sort of rpm multiplier)
So please be my guests to give all help needed.
Cheers
VP
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Hi Gentles
I was leafing through some papers and I found a business card of a friend.
I think lots of members had him as friend too.
Cheers
VP
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Gentles, Bob
Bob give a hand here please.
Pay atention to my reply here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8333.msg102277#msg102277
Now I want to put the AVR in to get power as stable as possible.
Windings look like the sketch below. And the AVR is a cheap one.
How should I connect it to make it right!
Cheers
VP