Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Original Lister Cs Engines => Topic started by: sirpedrosa on August 06, 2018, 03:20:45 PM

Title: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on August 06, 2018, 03:20:45 PM
Hello everyone

Following Tiger's advice, here's a new 12/2 topic.

This Sunday was a day to visit the old machine. (Acquisition under discussion) Due to not deteriorate much more, it was all sprayed with WD40 - for now - I will experiment later on the ATF / acetone.

Bad news are: the whole system of governor seized with rust;
a fuel pump element seized with rust;
the two intake Tappets seized with rust.

All this at the first glance.

It's going to be a lot of work.

I kindly ask to anyone in this forum the 12/2 manual in pdf format.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on August 06, 2018, 04:18:52 PM
I forgot,

Is missing also the return fuel line (was stolen cut, due the copper/brass), and the starting handle is somewhere that the owner don't remember.

Best Regards
Sirpedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: LowGear on August 06, 2018, 07:59:52 PM
Hey Sirpedrosa,

What a great project.  I think the twin is the best looking of all the Listers.  You've come to the right spot for informed guidance.  (Not me, I'm just a Lister fan boy.)

Best Wishes,

Casey

I'm thinking you should be careful around paint you want to remain with the 50/50 release stuff.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on August 06, 2018, 08:20:20 PM
Hello Casey,

I recognize the 12/2 is a little beast (above 500kg), but this project means at lest to preserve history of my toddler time, as I had spent countless hours earring that POP/POP in my birth village.
But a single does't get out of my mind. One at time.

Please clarify me about that recipie of ATF/Acetone issues.

BR
Sirpedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: broncodriver99 on August 06, 2018, 10:00:03 PM
I kindly ask to anyone in this forum the 12/2 manual in pdf format.

I have a couple of PDF's I can email you. One specifically calls out the 12/2 and I have an earlier version that list the 10/2(they are the same except for RPM. If you want to PM me your email address I will send them over to you.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on August 06, 2018, 11:21:14 PM
Greetings everyone

I would like to publicly acknowledge the support already given by BroncoDriver99.

See you later.
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: mikenash on August 07, 2018, 09:23:39 AM
Hello everyone

Following Tiger's advice, here's a new 12/2 topic.

This Sunday was a day to visit the old machine. (Acquisition under discussion) Due to not deteriorate much more, it was all sprayed with WD40 - for now - I will experiment later on the ATF / acetone.

Bad news are: the whole system of governor seized with rust;
a fuel pump element seized with rust;
the two intake Tappets seized with rust.

All this at the first glance.

It's going to be a lot of work.

I kindly ask to anyone in this forum the 12/2 manual in pdf format.


Try this.  A 12/2 is really, largely, just a couple of 6/1s

Se attachment
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on August 07, 2018, 01:36:55 PM
Many thanks MikeNash

More good stuff to burn eyelashes.

Br
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2 - meanwhile a Petter PAZ1
Post by: sirpedrosa on August 14, 2018, 11:25:13 PM
My dear friends

Do not get me wrong but I said earlier that I was going to take baby steps.

The historic rivalry between RA Lister and the Petter brothers can not fail to honor both in contributing to the advancement of technology.

So I looked for an acceptable price machine to honor the Petter brothers too, and today I went to get a PAZ1.

Not working because it is dry. In a few days I give him a drink to see if he is resuscitated.

At first glance it has good compression, but the blower casing accuses the hard work of moving a cement mixer for a few years. It has some patches and a lot of welds.

Here are some pictures. Please be complacent because this is not the right place, and as soon as possible I will open a new thread in the right place - even because I need help and literature.

It seems to me to have been a good deal. The cost of going fetch it and the temporary wheelbase, is already higher than the cost of the machine.

Now I need your support with the workshop manual for disassembly and assembly this PAZ1.

However the 12/2 is not forgotten, but it needs more manpower.

Best Regards to All
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on August 16, 2018, 01:28:12 AM
Greetings my good fellows

I started the new thread of my PETTER PAZ1 here: http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8333.msg95728#new

Fell free to enjoy.

Best regards to all
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 02, 2018, 01:25:15 AM
Greetings my good fellows

Today (at this time I mean yesterday) was one day of the days.

I'm officialy woner of a Lister 12/2 1957  - to restore.

Long exaust pipes are all ready off, fuel line and tank too.

To do list: manage some way to get it out of shed, seat it on a trolley and strip it down.

Best regards to all, and please be happy
VPedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 09, 2018, 01:50:33 AM
Greetings my good fellows

Today (at this time I mean yesterday - again) was one day of the days (2*110miles).

Strip it down has begin!!!

after soaking for a few weeks.

Create some space in the shack ...

Exhaust pipes off, manifolds off, line fuel off, fuel tank off, decompressor levers off, rockers off, push roods off, governor connetings off (a few), fuel pumps off, and fuel pumps cleaning (a few minutes a go).

Next: figure out a way to get it home...

Best regards to all, and please be happy
VPedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 09, 2018, 01:51:16 AM
Some more pictures...
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 09, 2018, 02:14:04 AM
One last question for the community:

Should not the valve tappet guides, and the valves tappets, have left?
The bottom of the tappets does not pass in the hole where the guide rests.

Enlight me, please.

BR
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 09, 2018, 09:49:04 PM
My good fellows

One more afternoon in the shop, and one pump is cleaned.

BR
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: Willw on September 09, 2018, 11:14:40 PM
Looking good so far. :)

The camshaft must be removed before the lower half of the lifter can be removed.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 10, 2018, 01:55:34 AM
Hi Willw

Thanks for reply. tell me if they have to be unscrewed.

And for the comunity please give opinion of my drowing about CAV fuel pump. I dig a lot, but not find good info for reassemble.

This is a 12/2, so I toke more attention tearing apart the second one. and making my notes.

All the best.
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 10, 2018, 02:01:24 AM
Maybe a picture... Also

ATENTION! ATENTION!

My apologies to everyone. Today I assembled the fuel pump and I realised the alignment Control sleeve notch must match 8th groove of control rod (just in the midlle. More simple count 7 teeth for each side).

Here is the updated picture.

All the best.
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: Willw on September 10, 2018, 04:32:01 AM
[urlhttps://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Lister-CS-and-L-Tappet-Set.html][/url]
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 15, 2018, 09:28:46 PM
Good evening everyone

Another saturday in the cave. Both CAVs are ready to deploy (final tighting will be done when timing the machine).

To celebrante the endeavor it's fair some 30cc of barley cetanes.

Cheers!
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 15, 2018, 10:16:39 PM
Hi Pedrosa, just be sure you got it right here is a picture showing how it should be. Wish I could join you in having a beer but it`s 8 in the morning here in Australia.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 15, 2018, 11:26:12 PM
Hi Ajaffa first

For now this forum is still interesting, although I had better expectations, and of course that touching ideas and experiences with someone on the other side of the world makes it worthwhile to keep hope.

I have already told everyone that I am new to this - stationary engines - because I spent endless hours watching the 12/2 of the olive oil mill in my village - which is no longer working for 20 years - and is now mine.

Of course I need the help of the guys here from the forum, because they have more experience. My job is maritime police, but since childhood the machines have always fascinated me. I graduated in computer science engineering, but cogwheels will always be the evolution of the wheel itself.

Australia for me is a continent since elementary school, and I can not even get a slight idea of ​​the size of this territory. I just know that people work hard, because it will not be easy this territory.

As for the well-deserved beer, it is promised - I will make a package that will stand the trip - and as soon as possible I have the pleasure to share the same taste with you - send PM with address. (I prefere to make a toast with you than brake a leg)

Regarding the image of my CAVs BPF1B870CS6253, they have two dots - one on each side of the rack - so I'd contributed with an edited image noting that the pinion notch should match the midlle groove of the rack.

So far I have not yet been able to get someone to tell me the torque value in the "delivery valve holder". But I know that there will be a soul that hears me.

I wish you a sunny sunday.
All the best
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 16, 2018, 12:26:51 AM
Hi Pedrosa, thanks for the offer of a beer. Sadly I`m not allowed to drink them because of my heart medications. So while you are enjoying alcohol, I`m stuck with a cup of tea (not even allowed coffee). I do sometimes have a glass of red wine for medicinal purposes. (maintaining my sanity)  :laugh:

Yes Australia is enormous and mostly uninhabited. The majority of people live close to the coastline where the climate is better. Central Australia is pretty much a desert, we even have herds of wild camels!

Don`t know the answer to your question about the correct torque for the delivery valve holder. I`ve always just tightened them up tight with a spanner, don`t over tighten as it will deform the sealing ring. If it starts to leak tighten it a bit more. The critical issue in this simple system is the pop pressure which is set on the fuel injectors. You will need a test rig to set them up correctly. I have heard of people counting the number of turns during dis assembly. Replicating this would set the pop pressure pretty close on reassembly assuming that you don`t have to replace any parts.

Always sunny here, we are in the middle of a record beating drought. What we need is spring rain but then I`ll have to start cutting the bloody grass again (10 acres).

You are welcome to email me at ajaffa1@yahoo.co.uk

Bob



Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 16, 2018, 01:45:55 AM
Hi Ajaffa first

By now is 1h25, I'm arriving from the cave taking off brass rack sleve of bryce fuel pump of petter paz1, to order new rebild kit (i only need this sleves and rack and rack rubbers, but uk only selles all the stuff - and gold price!).

cheers again for that glass of sanity. I also take 2 pills for blod pressure, but there is nothing like that blood color (!). I know spring season is comming there, so don't bother let it pass thru, and count another year. A beer or a glass of 'good' wine it's not alcohol is realy sanity.

By the way, thanks for your tighten eye meter advise. I have already noticed that the indicated tightness is determined by the injector, that is, if there is no leakage between the pump and the injector (and this one works fine) the tightness is good.

BR
Pedrosa
PS: Is time to sleep.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 16, 2018, 08:57:43 AM
Hi Pedrosa, hope you slept well. Just a warning about fuel injector testing. Please keep your hands well away when doing the testing, the pressures involved will easily inject diesel through your skin into your blood stream. I have heard stories of diesel engineers having limbs amputated after being injected with diesel. Please be careful.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: glort on September 16, 2018, 09:05:17 AM

The safer working fluid to use is new Vegetable oil. 
The body can break that down if it does penetrate the skin as it's just a fat and it's non toxic to humans unlike Diesel.
It won't affect the pop off pressures or the spray pattern but it is a LOT safer to use.

 Firing injectors can cause Diesel vapors/ mist which is something one best avoid breathing where veg oil is harmless if it is inhaled. 
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 16, 2018, 09:18:40 AM
Hey Glort, very good advice. Vegetable oil is a lot safer than diesel and just as good.

Health and safety advice from Captain Dangerous should be heeded!

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 16, 2018, 10:02:30 AM
Hi Pedrosa, just a thought, you say that the engine you have used to run an olive oil press, when you were a child. I`m wondering if they used some of the pressed oil as fuel, could be the earliest evidence of Lister`s running on straight vegetable oil.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 16, 2018, 04:22:54 PM
Hi Bob

Making engines work with other non-diesel fuel, I think is a recent thing - maybe derived from experiences of lack of diesel in desperation, or the traditional crazy dudes of experiences.

Diesel (and all fuels) here in portugal - in ancient times (and now???) - was a highly state-controlled fuel, and making an engine work with something other than "official fuel" gave a prison sentence.

Check the photo of another engine 12/2 that my neighbor has: it has a registration plate of the motor, to say the effective power, issued by the government.

BR
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 16, 2018, 10:15:53 PM
Wow, locking up your citizens for not buying fuel from the state run monopoly is a new low, I thought Portugal was a democracy not a dictatorship. The American members are always complaining about their Environmental Protection Agency, no match for your government regulations.

Thankfully here in Australia fuel is reasonably cheap. The government would love to raise more revenue by increasing fuel duty but they know there would be a public revolt. The nearest shops to where I live is 100km round trip. The nearest city (Brisbane) is five hours away, the people just couldn`t afford it and the economy would collapse.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 16, 2018, 10:59:02 PM
Hi bob
Portugal stills a democracy, and all democracies are not cheap!
I mean in that time - and yes, it was dictatorship time - from 30's till 74.

And do not be wrong, fuels and gunpowder always be a monopoly of state.
Nowadays government does't care if you play with an engine running on WVO, or beer, since it is just for your one fun.
As far as I can see the ideal mean of transportation that suits you, I think is a plane or a shooper.

Have a safe journey
BR
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 17, 2018, 08:53:21 AM
Hi Pedrosa, if I had the money for a plane or helicopter I wouldn`t be messing about with rebuilding old engines to reduce my power bill.  :laugh:

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: glort on September 17, 2018, 01:18:12 PM

Have you hooked your solar up Bob?
If so, what sort of power you getting out of that?
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: dieselspanner on September 17, 2018, 05:41:22 PM
I can't remember when, but around 5 years back the EEC came up with the idea that every private citizen could use 2000 liters of WVO, WMO, biodiesel, or SVO without notifying the relevant authority, only one country refused to mandate it..........

France!

On the up side, provided your vehicle is up together and you haven't done something like rolling through a 'stop' sign or failing to leave cyclists 3 meters at the traffic lights, where the gendarmes an slap you with an on the spot 120 fine they'd rather carry on drinking coffee and sorting out the overtime sheets.

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 17, 2018, 09:26:53 PM
Hi everyone

DieselSpanner, please tell us what is bodering you most: that SOB gendarmes or the 120 fine? As we say, money is expensive and manytimes isn't available!

Of course rooling your car with roses or wathever other smelly flavor sorting by exhaust pipe, and escaping to the special fuel taxation, is the same that you can run but you can't hide.

Don't forget that a police officer is a job, and like all jobs there is good professionals and otheres not so.

I know you don't really mean it (I said before my job), but please tell us if you have the Bryce model NSDLA052D0359 injector manual.

That will be awesome.

Many thanks to you guys, for not letting me here talk to myself.

Cheers
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: dieselspanner on September 17, 2018, 10:09:24 PM
Hi Sirpedrosa

Neither bothers me, after almost 14 years in the military I'm more than happy with the phrase 'Don't do the crime if you can't do the time'

And I didn't refer to the gendarmes as 'SOB's, either.

Most of the things that police forces (in the western world, anyway) do are more than necessary, however France wide, the traffic section, and those on motorcycles particularly, are seen as an extra fund raising arm for the system.

On an engineering note, I don't have the manual for the Bryce pump, but bear in mind that the Listers we know and love were made for reliable service in remote locations. The knock on from this is that they can be repaired / rebuilt with the minimum of tools and information. Provided you don't hit anything too hard with a hammer or use too long an extension on your spanners you'll be ok.

Should you make a mess of something, you'll not do it twice, it's what Ed Dee calls 'Paying your school fees'

Cheers
Stef

Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 17, 2018, 10:22:01 PM
Cheer up Stef

We are in the same boat.
And yes those guys on motorcyles are ordered to raise fund for system, not only in france...

BR
Pedrosa

PS: I really need that manual, and others to have the same view from the point of view of the manufacturer.
PS2: Todays the only remote location is just our mind, a far as we refuse to learn... or relearn again anything.

BR
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 18, 2018, 12:25:05 AM
Hi Guys, very interesting discussion about traffic cops being used to raise revenue. I have a mate who is an Australian traffic cop and tells me that they have a daily quota of fines they are expected to issue. once they have met that quota they get to go and eat doughnuts and drink coffee. Always best to get stopped by a cop at the end of his shift, he`s already met his quota and can`t be bothered with the paperwork!

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 18, 2018, 01:01:42 AM
Hi Pedrosa, there is some injector and pup information available here: http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/injection/fuel1.htm

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: glort on September 18, 2018, 01:07:20 AM
My opinion of traffic/ general Duties Cops is very low.

Had a couple of accidents and other incidents in the last couple of years where people ran into us or we had problems through no wrong doing of our own and the cops treated us like we were criminals. Or plain didn't give a shit.  One guy was an absolute bastard.  You don't get to be the offensive smart arse he was without a lot of practice. Most of them here have an Us and them attitude. If you are not one of them, you are the enemy. The idea of looking after people is a joke with most of them. Yes, I know, there are the exceptions such as my cousin who is a country cop and always been a big teddy bear. I have no idea how he got in the job, seems he would be a very poor fit with the majority of them.
The exceptions should be the belligerent ones not the good ones but that has not been my experience with them at all.

I had dealings with a couple of Young general Duties cops a few years ago that had a lot of smart arse and superior attitude and zero compassion. They picked the very wrong day to give me shit and they got hammered in return and clearly didn't know how to deal with it. I ripped into them hard and told them exactly what I thought of their attitude and what amounted to incompetence.  They should have never been sent to deal with the job but none the less should have had the common sense to handle it better  trained or not.  As it turned out, I had to write a statement about the events of the day and made mention/ complaint of their behavior in my statement.

The young detective dealing with the matter was from the same station and was not impressed with what happened.  He showed the 2 Jnrs what I said and ripped them a new one as well. I got a sincere and lengthy apology from them obviously brought on by the detective who was clearly dismayed by my experience and was sincerely apologetic as well. He clearly had some authority over them and promised me he would make sure all the GD cops at his station would be trained so as the situation was never repeated again which I have no doubt he would have made sure of.  Hopefully it knocked some of the ingrained mentality out and put a bit of human compassion into them for future dealings.

The detective I have been dealing with for over 3 years is bloody brilliant.  Nicest guy you could hope to meet and a genuine person that goes above and beyond in his work. It's clear he DOES take things personally and does things for the sake of looking after people rather than just ticking things off his case list.  I feel lucky that he is working on the case and we get to deal with him. He's definitely the right person for the job and I'm sure has done a lot for a lot of people and made the world a better place by nailing scumbags and looking after people that need it and giving them some confidence in the system and sense of Justice.

They should have him at the academy instilling his attitude and outlook to the new cops instead of the gestapo like disposition they clearly are taught now and is the general attitude of the great majority of them.


While I have not had a traffic fine of any type in as long as I can remember, only an idiot would not see that most if not all traffic cops now are primarily a revenue raising instrument for the gubbermint and the thing of " Road safety" is just an insult to ones intelligence in being the moral cover story for a profit machine.

When there are speed camera's making Billions a year that are owned by private banks giving the cops/ gubbermint a slice of the pie, there is no doubt or denying the revenue creation aspect.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 18, 2018, 01:33:08 AM
Hi Pedrosa, there is some injector and pup information available here: http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/injection/fuel1.htm

Bob

Bob

It's all ready scavanged.

BR
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 18, 2018, 08:34:45 AM
Hi Pedrosa just a couple of images that may assist you with your injector repairs. Hope yours look better than mine, which after dis assembly has been soaking in a sealed jar, filled with diesel, for the last twelve months.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 18, 2018, 08:12:25 PM
Hi everyone

Today I toke some time do separate the injector needle from nozzle. It was a bit stuked. Well soaked with that WD41 (acet+atf) and an hot air gun (150) and some precision muscle, it came out.

Next: clean everything thoroughly, and reassemble.

Have a nice time guys.
Pedrosa

PS: Bob, this one is the Bryce form Petter, the others from Lister still in place. Next days i'll bring them to clean too.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 19, 2018, 10:15:09 AM
Hi Pedrosa, do them one at a time and reassemble before doing the second one. While parts are theoretically interchangeable worn parts are not. Jeweller`s rough can be used sparingly to lap worn surfaces back to a sealing joint, provided you flush everything after. If you find corrosion this can be removed safely by using the burned end of a wooden kebab stick, it is mildly abrasive but won`t wear steel. Light it, blow it out and rub. repeat until clean. Once again flush everything before reassembly.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 19, 2018, 01:50:19 PM
Hi Bob

thank you for your always appreciated advice.

For each piece I have a box or tin for, as there are no exchanges of pieces.

By the send picture of that "burned end of a wooden kebab stick".

I made some research and I find that the rust can be removed with oxalic acid "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid".

What is your opinion?

cheers
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 19, 2018, 11:20:16 PM
Hi Pedrosa, I`ve not tried oxalic acid. If you are going to use it, try it first on something unimportant like an old rusty nut and bolt. Let us know how well it works. Keep it away from copper or brass components, some rust removers/cleaners will eat through copper very quickly. Caustic soda is one such cleaner.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 23, 2018, 11:23:38 PM
Greetings Everyone

Another sunday "promenade" to the shed visiting the 12/2, taking off injectors (wonderfull shape), join them to other stuff in the basket and bring all to the "cave" to start the derust "chemical and/or electrical" to see the best results.

Fingers crossed!

Good week to all.
BR
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 26, 2018, 02:30:53 PM
Greetings Everyone

I need help, please. My body of 2 BKB injectors which has the very tight spring nut (4) and has no hexagonal shape to unscrew it, but only two notches for wrench, which can not unscrew them without damaging.

BR
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 27, 2018, 09:13:49 AM
Hi Pedrosa,  I`m not sure there is an approved method for doing this. You could try soaking it in penetrating oil and leave it for a week, you could try applying gentle heat with a small blowlamp. I don`t believe heat should ever be used on an injector pump but when all else fails that may be the only solution. If heat wrecks it you have to buy a replacement.

One other idea, that I have used in the past, is shock. Put the injector pump in a vice, put the best fitting spanner you have on the spring nut, lean on the spanner as hard as you dare while taping the outside of the injector body with a hammer.

Good luck,

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 27, 2018, 12:02:46 PM
Hi Bob

Nice to hear from you.

That nut is soft steel. it will ruins in a glance. I all ready soak it a lot, put it in the oven 1H @ 200C, soak it again, but it stills stuck.

I only use blowlamp in exausts or something rough.  hammers and injectors are not friends at all.

I'll try to get an hex nut to screw in the spring nut, with a counter nut. By now is the only idea that occurs to me to not damage the spring nut.

By the way, the oxalic acid is good to derust. I tried on a few masonry spoons, they get black color but no rust. need to stay some time (3/4 days...). the metal was not attacked. next experience ... electrolysis

Cheers
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 27, 2018, 01:20:33 PM
Hi Pedrosa, sorry you are having such a hard time with this stuck nut.

 The rack in my injector pump was badly worn and the element was f*cked. Today I ordered a second hand CAV pump to replace it along with a new element. I will photograph the old spring nut I have and post the photo in the morning. If it is compatable with your pump I will happily post it to you.

You can then be brutal with the one you have, a pipe wrench and a hammer will move just about any nut on earth, it will not be pretty, but it will be out.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 28, 2018, 09:39:06 PM
Greetings Everyone

The 2 Lister's CAV IP's are primed, and the Petter's Bryce too. All other parts rusted "are bathing" in the oxalic acid. And 2 bits os truck parabolic spring are ready to go to the cuting machine to make the gibkey puller.

Fingers crossed!

BR
Pedrosa

PS: Today I collect some of my 2 rows of sweet potatoes. The first one is amazing, take a look!
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 28, 2018, 10:43:52 PM
Updating the patato

1,333kg
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on September 29, 2018, 10:08:07 AM
Very nice sweet potatoes and injector pumps. Where I live sweet potatoes grow very well but can take over the yard if you are not careful. I like them dry fried in the oven like french fries.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 29, 2018, 01:26:54 PM
Hi Bob

I like them in the basement before someone takes them before me, like the peppers did (a two-legged rat took them before me).

Today I piked up thoes left, I think the two rows should give 70kg.

I like them even raw, just without peel.

to prevent they do not spread just change the foliage from one side of the row to the other once a month (i think).

Do you believe that until now I still have not gotten the help asked for Petter?

Cheers.
Pedrosa

Ps: the big ones where on the right row
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 30, 2018, 12:42:34 AM
Hi all

Just an update of patatos harvest (cleaned and sorted), while 12/2 parts are in bath.

BR
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: glort on September 30, 2018, 02:04:25 AM
Do you believe that until now I still have not gotten the help asked for Petter?


NO!

I don't believe it! Could not be possible. Are you Lying?
 You are ENTITLED to get that help and people are OBLIGATED to give it to you. How dare they!

If I were you, I'd wrote a letter to the management and demand the service you paid for. It's just not fair otherwise.  Maybe you could lodge a claim with the consumer claims tribunal in your country and make them give you what you want or get your money back?

 ::)
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 30, 2018, 08:44:02 AM
Hello glort

If in life it was all about money, half the world did not exist.

Perhaps the word comrade, solidarity, philanthropy, and so many others that helped the human being to leave the middle age. where there were only two types of people: the master and the slave.

If this forum is not for the network of knowledge, then what will it serve? to do business???

So who publishes in this forum is not bound to achieve its objective? which is the global knowledge network.

I believe that this forum has nothing to do with complaints or with the courts, because for this I could spend 5000 characters with prose every time I pronounce on a topic.

I just ask simple things, for simple problems and with simple answers: can anyone help with a simple manual?
Whoever has the manual and wants to share it very well.

I think this will be the spirit of this forum ...

Cheers
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: glort on September 30, 2018, 02:32:12 PM

I just ask simple things, for simple problems and with simple answers: can anyone help with a simple manual?
Whoever has the manual and wants to share it very well.

I think this will be the spirit of this forum ...



I think it is the spirit of this forum too. It's one of the most generous and helpful I have ever seen in many different ways.

That is why I also think that if anyone did have the manual you want, they would have already given it to you.  If they don't have it, then they don't have it and can't help you. You keep asking like everyone here has one and are withholding it from you.  It's clearly not the case.
Repeatedly asking for it as if you are being treated unfairly is not going to create what people do not have to share.

I have seen numerous suggestions of where you could get what you want and also seen you on at least one occasion reject that advise.

The answer to your question you have asked several times "  can anyone help with a simple manual?" is obviously, No, no one has the manual you are after and therefore are not able to assist you in providing one. 
It's as basic as that.

This being the case, your only alternative is to widen your search in other places. I would start with the suggestions you have already been given and  in some cases rejected, without apparent further investigation  into those sources.

This may be the extent of the help people here are able to provide you as they just plain are not in possession of what you want to be able to help you with it.
 
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: glort on September 30, 2018, 02:59:22 PM

Just looking back through this thread, You asked for a manual for a 12/2.
2 people linked/ offered one on the same day you asked.

Clearly proves if anyone did have the PAZ manual you want, the spirit of this place is you would have got it just as quick.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 30, 2018, 02:59:57 PM
Hi Glort

I think it's enough of a blow, I realize, you can put off the boot.

BR
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 02, 2018, 12:25:47 PM
Hi Bob

As I said, today I bought the nut and the counter nut, and incredibly the measure is metric 22 * 1,5 - who would say!

I had the nuts turned in order to save maximum thread.

It worked flawlessly. Now it's cleaning everything, closing and tuning it in the correct pressure.

One more thing: oxalic acid leaves a protective antirust layer, it should (i think) only be slightly brushed and cleaned before painting.

we will see...

Cheers
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 03, 2018, 09:55:59 AM
Hi Pedrosa,Looks very nice, quality workmanship. I recommend that you assemble it without the injector nozzle, then flush it through with diesel or new vegetable oil before fitting the nozzle. It only takes a couple of pieces of crud to block the nozzle and it can be impossible to clean out after.

Haven`t touched my restoration for a few days, a mixture of cost, depression and ill health. Hoping to get back to it next week.

Keep up the good work.
Bob.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 04, 2018, 12:10:11 PM
Hi everyone,

Bob cheers you up, I wish you the best. Health is very important, but we have to be more stubborn than disease.

Of course if we are tired we can lay the body down for him to rest, but our head never rests, and it affects the body.

But even if you do little in restoration, this can ease the rest because it keeps you busy.

yesterday was harvest day, few grapes, the climate this year was severe.
Let's see inside the barrel...

Today I left the injectors in a specialized company, it will cost me 1 hour of business labor.

All the beste for all

pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 04, 2018, 12:31:10 PM
Thanks Pedrosa, the reason I bought my engine was to keep me busy, while recovering from a very serious injury in a motor vehicle accident. I have probably recovered as good as I`m going to get. Makes me very angry and depressed that this is going to be as good as it gets from here on. This forum and the people on it keep me sane. I`ve ordered another heap of spares and will try to get back to the rebuild next week.

Good luck with your rebuild and the harvest.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 06, 2018, 01:05:05 AM
Hi Bob

Today was a national holiday, but the restoration continues. I did not do much, but the pile of pieces is already pretty.

The injectors are tuning and the fuel tank is in the oxalic.

Only the cart is missing to remove the iron from the shack. Plans are already made.

BR
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 06, 2018, 10:11:13 AM
Hi Pedrosa, all looking good. Be careful moving the old iron, it`s very heavy. Use the best mechanical handling tools you have and stay out of harms way. I have seen serious injuries from slowly moving heavy steel objects.

Good luck, let us know how you go.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 11, 2018, 02:29:42 AM
hello bob

So, how are these bones?

a lot of work and little restoration. I got my calibrated injectors today (and I got a compliment from the injector technician about the cleaning).

the plans for the fuel filter are in progress as you can see in the photos, the cart is already on the white board as well.

Tomorrow is the day to go get the wood for the cart, cut, drill, screw and put wheels.

Let's see how it goes.

greetings
Pedrosa

Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 11, 2018, 02:31:55 AM
Some more pictures...
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 11, 2018, 11:32:05 AM
Hi Pedrosa, looks like you are making good progress. I am a little concerned about your modification to the fuel filter, I`m not convinced the pressure holding the filter against the o`ring will be sufficient and could allow unfiltered diesel to bypass the filter.

Congratulations on the injectors and injector pumps. I striped my pump months ago and found the rack to be badly damaged. I recently got my hands on another old CAV injector pump with the intention of using the best parts from each to make one good unit. I have a new element for it so we`ll see how it goes. I`ll post some pics as soon as possible.

Good luck,
Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 11, 2018, 02:00:46 PM
I am a little concerned about your modification to the fuel filter, I`m not convinced the pressure holding the filter against the o`ring will be sufficient and could allow unfiltered diesel to bypass the filter.

Loock at plan above. I will make a threaded nut, where it inserts a bored tube (1/4 ~ 3/8), and carries another nut in the bottom, with orings on both sides. All brass metal.

The photo is to show that I can always insert the original filter.

The filter is an Rx9, quite common to many cars, and fits perfectly on the spot.

Cheers.
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 12, 2018, 01:57:14 AM
Hi Everyone

Just to update. Wood and wheels are ready to roll...

Wood is wet, rain came yesterday.

A few bolts and nuts and new kart will be done.

Cheers
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 12, 2018, 11:24:27 AM
How wet is the wood? It might be worth painting the end grain with polyurethane varnish to stop it from splitting as it dries out.

Like your design for the diesel filter, sorry I only viewed the picture not the drawing.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 12, 2018, 02:10:36 PM
Hi Bob

Just some overnight drops, nothing that worth any painting because it will be temporary.

Now my concern is to figure out the way to lift the block.

My idea is I have to mount a scaffold with good support to raise the engine, put the cart underneath and make a rail to get out.

Let's see how it goes.

cheers.
pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 13, 2018, 12:41:36 AM
Hi Everyone

Just to update. Kart is squared!

Cheers
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: Johndoh on October 13, 2018, 12:49:48 AM
will that wood and castors support the engine?
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 13, 2018, 01:28:27 AM
Hi JD

I believe that it is. The wood is 14x7cm, the castors will be fixed with threaded rod M10, the fastening of the crosspieces is with threaded rod M12. and the motor is secured with M14 threaded rod.

The casters are from an 1000L trash container (~200kg/unit).

We will see!

BR
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 13, 2018, 08:56:06 PM
Hi Everyone

Updating the Kart task. there is no need for that brute force planned. 10mm rods to hold the frame straight is sufficient.

And only 12mm for the engine. "Let's give it some room"

Bob, thanks for the warnig of the wet wood, when I tightened the screws I saw that the fibers were very soft. loosen and painted the tops with an enamel that lay there on the shelf - only for the wood not to breathe from the top.

Now let it dry more ...

Cheers
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 13, 2018, 11:05:51 PM
While the "Leslie" goes by nothing like shining the taps (the supply tank, the fuel tank and fuel return nipple)

BR
PEdrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 14, 2018, 12:00:00 PM
Hi Pedrosa, I heard on the news today that Portugal is facing a very rare and dangerous Atlantic storm. Hoping all is well with you and your family.

Stay safe,
Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 14, 2018, 01:32:20 PM
Hi Bob

Just a few showers to settle the dust, and in some places strong gusts of wind that knocked down some trees. So far there is no news of major occurrences.

Civil protection had warned enough. Everything is normal already.

How's the restoration going around?

I have to have the gibkey puller cut, to go forward ... and "take the little boy out of the shack"

I have some gas soldering to do on PETTER ... I had to buy the second hand apparatus for DIY.

Self-taught in gas welding... Let's move forward!

Cheers
Pedrosa

Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 14, 2018, 01:57:05 PM
Very glad to hear things are OK. Good luck with doing the hot work, soldering/brazing are not the same as welding. The first two involve the addition of a lower melting point metal to the original metal, this usually involves the use of a flux to prevent oxidization. Welding involves melting two similar metals so they fuse together as one.

Best of luck with moving your engine from it`s shed. Hoping your kart works well, please use ropes and pulleys and stay out of the way. 700 Kg of cast iron can make a mess of a man, even at very slow speed.

My build is slow but steady, I`ve finished the injector and pump and I will post some pics tomorrow.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: Johndoh on October 14, 2018, 04:33:10 PM
I'm looking forward to seeing it up and running!
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 17, 2018, 12:02:20 PM
Hi folks

Yesterday was the day to make the repairs left by the storm "Leslie" in the village house; some broken tiles, and quite a few broken pines.

The dismantling of the 12/2 took another step (before the shack fell on it with the winter).

I already have restoration for a few more weeks ...

Cheers
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 18, 2018, 09:54:03 AM
Well done Pedrosa, you are doing a great job in very difficult circumstances. Sorry to hear the shed collapsed, please put some polythene over the engine to keep out any water. Glad to hear you got through the weather event with only a couple of loose roof tiles and a few trees down.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 18, 2018, 11:03:08 AM
Hi bob

The shed is not yet collapsed, it rains inside but not on the engine - and yes, it is (and was) properly protectid. But another "leslie" and i think it dosn't hang.

By the way, pistons have a notch in bottom and as far as i remember it is oriented to exaust valve. Am i correct?

Br
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 18, 2018, 12:18:47 PM
Hi Pedrosa, when looking into the crankcase door there are two visible features: the first is that there are numbers punched into the conrod and main bearing housing these should be facing you at bottom dead center.
The second feature is that the piston has a notch in it which should be on the right as you look in the crankcase door.

Interestingly, if you purchase a new piston there is no notch in it, nor is there any other way of determining the correct orientation. I have measured them and I believe them to be symmetrical so you can fit them either way.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 18, 2018, 01:36:10 PM
Hi Bob

When I took out the pistons, the gudgeon pin slided better in the direction of the notch. That is on the cyl 1 to the right, and on the cyl 2 to the left (seen from the governor side).

It means - following your clarification - that the notch will be on the side of the exhaust valve, because the 12/2 exaust manifolds are simetric. do you agree with my point if view?

BR
Pedrosa

Ps: open crankcase will be donne when is seats on kart.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: 38ac on October 18, 2018, 04:00:47 PM

Interestingly, if you purchase a new piston there is no notch in it, nor is there any other way of determining the correct orientation. I have measured them and I believe them to be symmetrical so you can fit them either way.

Bob

I also measured them and came to the same conclusion as you.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 18, 2018, 04:04:19 PM
Hi 38ac

Do you agree with my conclusion?

BR
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 19, 2018, 01:48:09 AM
Hi Guys

Good news and other not so. right Cyl very good shape, left cyl has 2 pits 10cm below top. Right piston good condition, left more pitted on top.

By the way, the two pistons are aligned both with notch to left side (view from governor). Both has the light shade of inlet valve.

Cheers
VP

Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 20, 2018, 12:16:49 AM
Kart is on the wheels...
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 21, 2018, 10:22:42 AM
Hi Everyone

Cleaning blocks and heads began. Lots of decades os dirt.

Bob and 38AC: take a look at the shape of pistons and in particular for that worned valve, and tell of your justice. Your advice will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: dax021 on October 21, 2018, 10:30:22 AM
Don't want to piss on your parade, but i doubt that that cart would last 5 minutes with my Sr2 standing on it.  Hope you prove me wrong though.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 21, 2018, 10:36:35 AM
Hi Dax021

So am I, and it's a Lister 12/2 not a Sr2. I think 12/2 it's twice the weight.

"What would become of man if there were no faith?"

BR
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: Johndoh on October 21, 2018, 05:46:18 PM
The valves look ok they need cleaned and reground I wouldn't like to be near the 12/2 when it starts balanced on that cart, madness IMO
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 21, 2018, 09:46:18 PM
Hi JD

The cart, as has been said, is temporary to walk from side to side. Of course when it starts to work it has to have better stability and the platters have to be bigger.

Calm down that "Rome and Pavia were not made on the same day."

BR
VP

PS: That worn-out valve is worrying me ... a lot.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 21, 2018, 11:37:23 PM
Hi Pedrosa, opinion and advice:

Pistons: measure the diameter of the pistons, top and bottom, how much play is there in the gudgeon pins, what is the size of the piston ring slots?  If the pistons are significantly worn they will need replacing. If there is only minor wear then a set of new piston rings should be adequate. If you are concerned about the pitting in the top of the pistons a very thin skim on a lathe would probably be OK provided you allow for this when setting the bump clearance.

Valves: put the valves back in the head, how much play is there in the valve guides? Now put a straight edge across the face of the cylinder head and measure how deep into the head the face of the valves are. The correct depth is between 0.055 inch (min) & 0.100 inch (max)
If there is significant wear in the valve stems and guides they will need replacing. If the face of the valves is more than 0.100 inch below the surface then the head will need to have new seats fitted.

Cylinder: if there is pitting or significant wear then you will need to have a sleeve fitted and honed. Fitting new piston rings in worn bores is a bad idea as there is often a lip worn in the cylinder at the top. Your new top ring will hit this and very quickly fail. Some replacement ring sets come with a stepped top ring to allow for this but I doubt they are available for an original CS.

I am waiting for our local machinist to return from holiday, he is going to sleeve my cylinder and fit new seats to the head.

Good luck with the kart, I have faith in Pedrosa not in God, experience has taught me that prayer has no impact on the performance of anything mechanical!

Bob

Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: 38ac on October 22, 2018, 02:13:29 PM
Have seen that wear and damage at the top of the piston and above the top ring on many occasions and that would not cause me to replace them. The important things are skirt condition and wear, pin hole wear, top ring land wear (common)  and cracks(uncommon) and none of that can the determined from pictures.

Pictures can deceive but in the last picture the top valve face certainly looks to be worn beyond grinding and need to be replaced. The bottom one might clean up and still have a good margin left on it.  Proper attention to guide wear is important as is the valve depth once a seat is established. The entire procedure is kinda lengthy to type up step by step but suffice it to say that when I have seen valves in that condition in my shop they are accompanied by worn stems and guides and the seats are in need of serious attention.   

Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 22, 2018, 02:42:30 PM
Hi folks

I'll add some more pictures to update info.
 
38ac:
skirt condition and wear seems to be ok (but I will still see with "the magnifying glass");

pin hole wear I think its ok because I needed to hit to make it slide;

top ring land wear (common)  - I'll measure the clearance;

and crancks still in shed...

Possibly (most certainly) I have to put a new seat in the valve, and a new valve;

All guides seems to be in good shape... but

Cheers.
Pedrosa
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 23, 2018, 12:49:47 AM
Greetings

I made the measurements of the valves in the heads with the pachymeter, and I obtained:
Valve depth: Lin - 2.8mm (bad), Lex - 1.8mm; Rin 1.8mm, Rex 2.35mm;
Stems: Lin - 10.95mm, Lex - 10.95mm; Rin 10,95mm, Rex - 10,95mm;
Guides: Lin - 11.15mm, Lex - 11.15mm; Rin 11,15mm, Rex - 11.20mm.

Please state what is relevant to these measures.

Note that the measurements were made without springs, however I was careful to make the seating of the valves with whiteboard pen.

Cheers.
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: 38ac on October 23, 2018, 12:56:53 PM
I work in the world of inches, feet, and miles didnt do the conversions because I am lazy.   I shoot for .002" clearance on the intake stems and .004" on the exhaust when renewing ahead.  Lister spec allows for .010" wear which I think is quite excessive.

A link link to specs on this site http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7359.30 (http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7359.30) 

It helps to know that in the English engineering world you will find that the great bulk of the time that the I.D.  dimension will be to size and the clearance will be machined into the O.D. part.  Example A CS engine has a 2" crankshaft at the mains. The I.D. of a new shell will measure very close to 2.000" while the new crankshaft spec  is also 2.000" with a machining limit of -.002" - .0025"
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 23, 2018, 03:34:24 PM
Hi 38ac

I understand that laziness. You don' got that need as I am.

Now I have to think about the imperial measures (and for a simple calculation just think that 0.100" = 2.54mm, and so on).

We still use BSP for tubing and tapering. BSW and BSF only in special cases, as in this case.

I do not need to have my12/2 working like a Swiss watch, but at least work well. The lathe service is quite expensive, but not only, allied to this is needed new valves and guides, and may still need new rings ... or even reboring (this bill will be very heavy ...). Not to mention parts have to be ordered from UK, or somewhere else.

"Money is expensive and often lacking!"

Cheers.
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: dieselspanner on October 23, 2018, 06:59:10 PM
Hi VP

Having worked in both imperial and metric for years I can  switch between the two with little trouble, the only thing my head won't go around is fuel consumption for my car, it has to be in miles per gallon. Liters per 100 kilometers I can't envisage.

Down at engineering levels 40 thou (0.04") is a millimeter and easy to remember.

OK, it's 0.0393700787402 if you want to be picky!

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 23, 2018, 11:33:53 PM
HI DS

Take a look: https://www.calculateme.com/gas-mileage/us-mpg-to-liters-per-100-km

BR
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: dieselspanner on October 24, 2018, 08:12:58 AM
Hi Pedrosa

It's not that I can't find the answer on the web, but that it holds no 'real world' relevance in my head!

When I moved to France I found it weird that they use the 24 hour clock in normal conversation, ( speak and can count enough in French to understand it!) Having done the best part of 14 years in the military and Lord knows how long at sea I'm quite happy with the format, but I still don't like using it in general conversation, no idea why.

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 24, 2018, 12:05:41 PM
HI DS

Thats because you don't realy need it, and thats great. And not needing makes us much happier, don't you agree?

BR
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: Johndoh on October 24, 2018, 12:06:10 PM
Hi VP

Having worked in both imperial and metric for years I can  switch between the two with little trouble, the only thing my head won't go around is fuel consumption for my car, it has to be in miles per gallon. Liters per 100 kilometers I can't envisage.

Down at engineering levels 40 thou (0.04") is a millimeter and easy to remember.

OK, it's 0.0393700787402 if you want to be picky!

Cheers
Stef

It's interesting talking to a "modern" mechanic he uses " drive ratchet on a 13mm socket but he would have no idea what  a " spanner fits or looks like. The only people in Ireland using imperial spanners are guys repairing lawnmowers or restoring vintage cars  and not all of them use imperial either. I have imperial sockets and spanners and when using them you remember how few tools older machines needed. My car, a Seat, uses 16 mm spanners on M12 bolts and 18 mm spanners on M14. I wonder how much metal they save making a nut or bolt head that little bit smaller. My torque wrench is in ft lbs I tried to explain to a friend what ft lb means but I started losing the will to live.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 24, 2018, 12:26:57 PM
Hey Johndoh, I worked as a machinist during the transition from imperial to metric in the UK. What a cluster f*ck. The whole purpose of the exercise was to move everything to a decimal based measurement system that was easy for computers to understand and control. Thousands of very skilled men lost their jobs to machines because of this, apprenticeships went out the window and the government were able to shut down all the training facilities. Give me feet and inches anytime, I can do the math in my head. Good on the USA for sticking with what was a much better system.

Here in Australia I can still buy imperial thread nuts and bolts, problem is they are made in China out of metric hexagonal bar! So a 5/16 bolt might have a 12mm head, f*cking madness!

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 24, 2018, 01:30:58 PM
Hi Bob

It's to have an imperial bolt but with a metric head. The Chinese make whatever product you want - as long as it's sold ...

I printed this chart (https://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/science/wrench-conversion.htm), and pined it in my white board. It works great.

Cheers
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: Johndoh on October 24, 2018, 04:28:54 PM
An imperial headed bolt with a metric thread and vice versa is plain stupid. People are stupid enough without adding to their store of things they dont understand. My local hardware shop still sells loose nuts and bolts. They have a metal ruler on the counter with holes in it for various sizes of bolts. Buy a few bolts and they stick one into a hole until it fits, then they measure it. I can just pick out the bolts I want without thinking about it. Lucky for these morons they don't sell BSF or whitworth or UNF etc. Pipe thread is still imperial sized here it's a good idea to avoid any salesman or salesperson under 60 if you need pipe fittings
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: dieselspanner on October 24, 2018, 09:12:38 PM
I'm rarely the one to say 'You're wrong' but this time I must!

Ignorance is lack of knowledge, it will eventually cause wisdom - See several of Terry Pratchett' books.

The days of everything being made to a particular specification went along with the British motor cycle industry, as long as the thread of the replacement bolt conforms to whatever relic one is trying to maintain / rebuild what matters the distance 'across the flats' of the hexagonal bits? If there's nothing else to hand then I'll re drill and re tap to suit with whatever I've got to hand. Keeping it all running is paramount, IMHO.

If you want concourse, then there are endless motorcycle and car events every summer, for the ultimate 'gong hunter' you can even take your classic car or bike to the - long forgotten - site of the original works and fill the tyres with 'Factory Fitted Air'

And the 'Stupid' are going to cock it up anyway........

Cheers
Stef

Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 24, 2018, 10:19:09 PM
Hey Stef, my frustration with this is that I used to be able to determine if a thread was metric or imperial by the size of the nut/bolt head. I now have to spend twice as long mucking about with micrometers and thread gauges.

Please don`t get me onto pipe fittings, especially hydraulic and pneumatic fittings. AAARRGG  :laugh:

Intelligence is the ability to learn from ones own mistakes, wisdom is the ability to learn from the mistakes of others.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 25, 2018, 12:20:11 AM
Hi Bob

We must have enough white hair to not cut wrists. Leave the fustrations and rejoice in being able to vent with half a dozen boys from the rest of the world.

As the other said the mistakes are the bill that wasn't paid at school. But now what counts is that we can make a mistake and start all over again.

It only costs money? less cigarettes to burn or diamonds that ex-wifes never deserved.

And the children are happy because they realize that we still do not have Alzheimer's (it's better than Parkinson, because with Parkinson you turn your glass of good wine to the ground, and with Alzheimer's you drink and forget to pay).

Intelligence or wisdom are synonymous that we refuse to stop learning ...

Cheers to ALL
VP

ps: minor corrections...
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 27, 2018, 09:58:27 PM
Hi Folks

Another day scraping rust and scale, o'rings are clean, wrist pins are fitted and fine tuned. The pile is growing...

Cheers
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 28, 2018, 01:56:49 AM
Updating...

Does anyone know how to remove the main plug from VOC when the head has already been removed from the cylinder, as red pointed in the pic.

BR
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: mikenash on October 28, 2018, 02:08:08 AM
Mine was so seized in place I drilled a M12 hole through it, made a puller, dragged it out and just bought a new part
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: Johndoh on October 28, 2018, 08:13:47 AM
I see the prices in that photo are in pounds shillings and pence I somehow doubt the modern moronic shop assistant could cope with that currency and the alternative names for some things like a tanner, a bob, a guinea or half a crown. Decimal currency is definitely easier to count but back in the day 12 pence = one shilling was easy. If you had a few pennies in your pocket you felt good now in Ireland a 50.00 bill is regarded as pocket change.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 28, 2018, 12:21:57 PM
Mine was so seized in place I drilled a M12 hole through it, made a puller, dragged it out and just bought a new part

Hi Mikenash

I can not afford that luxury, I have to save as many pieces as I can. "Money is veeery exxxpensive!"

Even though I have to clean them when the engine is already fully assembled and working, and do as they say in the manual.

But I'm sure someone knows a good way to extrat it.

BR
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: Hugh Conway on October 28, 2018, 07:10:29 PM
Sirpedrosa:
We tried all kinds of things to remove the plug. first the recommended methods. No Joy. Then  few creative but non destructive ways........still no joy. Heat did not work, even threading and using a puller did not work. We ended up destroying it then buying a replacement. Maybe just leave it alone if your does not come out easily and you do not want to purchase a new one.
Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 28, 2018, 09:15:02 PM
Hi Everyone

One Sunday afternoon continuing the 12/2 restoration:

Withdraw the remaining studes - it took some imagination! but not even the stubborn ones were hypothesized.

Remove some more rust and limestone in water jackets... with special tools!
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 28, 2018, 09:16:09 PM
Soften the pistons ...
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 28, 2018, 09:18:33 PM
Measuring clearances:

Left Piston: Skirt - 0.10mm (0.0039 ") Head 0.20mm (0.0078").
Right Piston: Skirt - 0.10mm (0.0039 ") Head 0.25mm (0.0098").

I think these measurements are within the normal parameters...
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 28, 2018, 09:21:37 PM
One last question - I ask the opinion of the forum - is this "callus" of the pistons in the opposite side of the valves is normal? see figure.

Good weak
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 28, 2018, 09:35:01 PM
Hi Pedrosa, I have two questions. The first is: what position are they stuck in, where the COV handles screwed in as for starting or out as for running? The reason I ask this is that it is a lot easier to free up a stuck plug by driving it in rather than trying to pull it out.

My second question is why do you want to pull them out? I think that the first run of your engine will probably free them, a mixture of heat and the shock wave from fuel detonating.

In my case the entire COV assembly has had to be replaced as the threads were damaged. I also made up a puller to remove the old plug, destroying it in the process.

DEV Precision, in India make new COV assemblies they would probably just sell you the plugs if you asked nicely. Alternatively ask your local machine shop to make you a pair, they are only made of mild steel and could be turned up on a lathe in ten minutes.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 28, 2018, 09:42:02 PM
Hi Pedrosa, wear above the top piston ring is very common, it is generally caused by a build up of carbon and is usually accompanied by wear in the top of the cylinders. A lot of people now use water injection to prevent these carbon deposits from building up.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 28, 2018, 10:01:27 PM
Hi Bob

Nice to hear from you.

1) COV's are not stuck, just only the main plug, the other parts are out souking to be cleaned.

2) and was (is) just to clean it thoroughly, as all parts.

Explain more that "water injection to prevent these carbon deposits from building up"

Cheers
VP

PS: things are going well, but i'll order parts only when all disassembly is done. (Postage truly expensive!)

Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: mike90045 on October 28, 2018, 10:35:47 PM
....
Explain more that "water injection to prevent these carbon deposits from building up"

take your basic spray bottle , and fill it with water or 50/50 water alcohol, and with the engine
running under a load, and thoroughly warmed up, start spraying a spritz of water into the intake pipe
(not just into the air cleaner, where it will ruin the paper element) but past the element, and right down the intake.
I give a squirt every 3rd or 4th power stroke, and amazingly, it just flashes into steam, cleans the cylinder, and blows the crud out.   Some folks rig up a dripper, some use a metering pump.
 Used to be used in airplanes to control detonation in piston engines, and was found to have a good cleaning effect too.   There's a load of posts here about all the different ways and flow rates people use.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 28, 2018, 10:42:16 PM
Hi Pedrosa, sorry I haven`t posted much recently. My Wife`s father has had a stroke and was expected to die. I am very pleased to say that he is now recovering well.  :)

If you do a search on the forum you will find a lot of information on water injection. Some clever people have fitted venturie pipes in to their inlet manifolds others use gravity fed systems. The important thing with water injection is that it is only used in a hot running engine and that it is turned off before shutting down. You do not want water standing in your cylinders. You can also manually do this by pouring a small amount of water into the inlets, if you put in too much the engine will start to bog down. It works equally well with petrol engines. The water turns to steam and lifts all the crap out of the engine and blows it out of the exhaust.

Glort is a huge exponent of water injection and has a water pump in his diesel car, running on waste vegetable oil, he also sometimes adds ethanol or methanol which gives him a bit of a power boost. He swears that it improves engine performance and longevity.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on October 29, 2018, 10:42:41 PM
Greattings

Cart is finished, lets see if it manage...

Measuring ring clearence:

Cylinder n 1 (rgt)
ring n                TDC                              BDC
1 ---------- 1,55mm (0.0610") ---- 1,30mm (0.0511") ---- width 3,85mm (0.1515") ---- thickness [3,10mm (0.1220") outer lip] > {3,05mm inner lip}
2 ---------- 0,95mm (0.0374") ---- 0,85mm (0.0334") ---- width 3,90mm (0.1535") ---- thickness 3,12~mm (0.1228")
3 ---------- 0,95mm (0.0374") ---- 0,90mm (0.0354")
4 ---------- 0,85mm (0.0334") ---- 0,80mm (0.0314")
oil --------- 1,15mm (0.0452") ---- 1,10mm (0.0433")

Bob and 38ac - opinion requested please!

Cheers
VP

Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on November 03, 2018, 01:26:32 PM
Hi Everyone

Finally the first project is finished (only the throttle spring was missing), and rocking and rolling.

Bernard 18A - 1968, with the original color of clay brick.
(the water pump could not be saved, I put a polye)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eA4kiglnbFnQm2-qBeP_xpLKRZGzJNBo/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eA4kiglnbFnQm2-qBeP_xpLKRZGzJNBo/view?usp=sharing)

Nice weekend
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: 38ac on November 07, 2018, 03:10:15 PM
Several observations form you last few posts.  Measuring piston to cylinder clearance when measured at the bottom of the bore is almost worthless as for discerning the condition. In all but the most worn and abused examples the great bulk of wear occurs at the very top top of the top ring travel in the cylinder and the top ring lands of the piston. Your piston ring end gap figures do indeed provide some good information to go with if  I can assume when you were measuring the top ring end gaps at the top of where they travel and NOT at the top of the cylinder? If you measured at the top of the cylinder the information is worthless.

Assuming you measured the ring end gaps at the correct place in the cylinder my ready math,  which is diameter = circumference divided by 3 you have about .003 wear in that cylinder.   That cylinder  is OK  to use. Top ring side clearance is also important.New spec is around .001" If you have more than .005 you need pistons IMO. Also all those end gaps are excessive, I assume they are used rings? Once more I apologize as I dont read every post on the threads.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on November 08, 2018, 11:37:57 AM
Thank you 38ac

Yes, the clearances were measured at the location where each ring stays on the TDC.
The rings are the ones that were in service.
It means that - with these clearances - new rings should be installed. Right?
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: 38ac on November 08, 2018, 11:50:53 AM
If there are no other problems with the pistons you can reuse them. New rings are in order.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on November 08, 2018, 09:40:25 PM
Hi Pedrosa, be careful when ordering new piston rings. Hard chrome plated cylinder bores require soft piston rings. Some Listeroid engines have cast iron cylinder bores and require hard piston rings, others have steel sleeves and require  intermediate rings. Please make it clear to your supplier that you have hard chrome cylinders.

Bob 
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on November 24, 2018, 12:59:38 PM
Hi Everyone

Got the fuel filter adaptar done! Nice piece.

Cheers
VP

PS: Lathe bill takes away a few good bottles of red and green...
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on November 24, 2018, 10:48:10 PM
Hi Pedrosa, very nice work, love to see some polished brass rather than the normal cheap cadmium plated steel crap normally used now.

What is the make and number of that fuel filter so I can do the same ?

Sorry to hear the cost of parts and machining services is reducing your alcohol consumption. Stick with it, it will be worth it in the end.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on November 24, 2018, 11:33:05 PM
Hi Bob

Popular name for this filter is kx9 (Mhale) - and is a general porpose fuel filter for a huge number os automotive brands.

I showed it in Reply #67 - In AU you can buy a C4891 FRAM (view equivalent chart https://www.pecasauto24.pt/mann-filter-7280260.html)

About the brass, I had to buy the material for turning. The 3/8 pipe had to buy 1.5m, yes 1.5m, and it was just a spare, otherwise I had to buy 6m (it's all crazy, I was told it's normal to do everything now in stainless steel). Brass is brass... period.

And then I want to keep everything in the imperial standard. It's more expensive... less a bottle of green.

Bob, it is not a consumption of alcohol, it is a way of saying that a bottle ends quickly, but the piece we see will last longer. I only drink at mealtime, or a beer if it is warmer.

But it looks nice!

Cheers
VP

PS: Have you see the petter's air filter nut? nice design?
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on November 25, 2018, 10:41:31 AM
Hi Pedrosa, yes I saw the new air filter retaining nut, very nice to see someone still knows how to use a knurling tool in a lathe.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on November 27, 2018, 07:25:14 PM
Hi Bob

While the restoration does not advance, another brass tap saves from going to the container for china. And it's already polished and tuned.

BR
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: 38ac on November 30, 2018, 10:35:55 AM
I have been performing that same fuel filter conversion for several years, I guess fine minds think alike ;)?

Much easier to do here in the states as we can purchase a 3/8" to 1/4" NPT brass bushing and a 1/4" NPT brass nipple of the correct length at the hardware store. Only place I differ is I place a short spring under the element that serves to hold it up against the head. Somewhere on these pages is a write up if anyone has interest in it. Nice work.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on November 30, 2018, 06:33:13 PM
Hi Butch

I showed your idea in my Reply # 68, and I think it works fine. Bob had doubts about the seal...

Keep in touch.

Cheers
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: 38ac on November 30, 2018, 07:52:18 PM
Ah,  I see now. Your element differs slightly from the one I use that has rubber seals that fit tightly on 1/4 pipe. I can find the element number if there is interest in posting it.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on November 30, 2018, 11:44:38 PM
Hello butch

I looked for the filter element that fit inside the wick container, so everything was all inside the body.

And yes it seems to me well that you divulge the reference of the filter element, for each one to adopt the system that they find better.

Cheers
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on February 07, 2019, 01:07:41 AM
Hello everyone

Winter is just another month, and I'll see in spring the 12/2 to continue disassembly.

Meanwhile Braim's oil can arrived from the UK on ebay, for the Lister. It's already shining, clean and working.

Let's get going.
BR
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on February 23, 2019, 11:42:50 AM
Hello everyone

The good weather is coming, the week was working in the village, pruning the trees, especially the olive trees, planting some more with parents and relatives, and...

Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on February 23, 2019, 11:44:16 AM
Finally the 12/2 left the shack. Now I have to disassemble the block to see the whole picture, and check if the account will be reasonable.

Let's see ... and the hydraulic press is almost finished.

Good weekend for all
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on February 27, 2019, 01:28:39 AM
Hi Everyone

My 12/2 came with a 2 1/4" handle, but does not fit into it, because is too large, so I just restored it to sell.

It's a genuine Lister Handle. Take a look! new ratchet and new grip of exotic wood, and fresh emanel.

Cheers
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on February 27, 2019, 04:12:14 PM
Hi Everyone

Does anyone knows what models of Lister have 2 1/4" crankshaft?

Br
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on March 12, 2019, 07:00:48 PM
Hi Everyone

Today was time to disassemble con rods, to come to the shop to clean and verify clearances. Valve tappets too, only exhaust, because inlet tappets are sized, and need hammer, some heat and lub.

Cheers
VP

Ps: Crank journal only needs to be soften, it has just signs of being stopped for long time.
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on March 15, 2019, 01:13:48 PM
Hi Everyone

Finally tappets are all off, cleaned, fine sanded, and bathing in oxalic.

Next stage: brut force to get flywhels, main shaft and cam shaft off.

After that I hope the way will be up till head cover.

Cheers
VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on March 16, 2019, 10:54:25 PM
Hi Everyone

Meanwhile, the Cotiemme engine of the harvester is already mounted and spinning, only need to repair (plus buy) a new centrifugal clutch.

here is final work...

Have a sunny day.

VP
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 19, 2019, 11:01:39 AM
Hi Pedrosa, I am curious about the 2 1/4" crankshaft, early Lister CS engines had a smaller crank shaft diameter to later models but my experience is limited to single cylinder engines where the later models had a 2 inch diameter crank. It would make sense to increase the crankshaft diameter for a twin cylinder engine, I suspect that big end bearing journals will be smaller.

Looking good.

Bob
Title: Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
Post by: sirpedrosa on March 19, 2019, 11:48:24 AM
Hi Bob

I made some research and I found that the Lister CD and CE has 2 1/4" shaft:
CD: http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/ListerData/CDP4data.htm
CE: http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/ListerData/CEP4data.htm

Br
VP