Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Original Lister Cs Engines => Topic started by: saba on May 28, 2018, 08:09:32 AM

Title: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: saba on May 28, 2018, 08:09:32 AM
Maybe somebody knows wich liner to put in a standard lister block. By now i have a few blocks that could do with a new inner part. I have searched the forum but i cannot find the real pointer.
Ithink it is cheaper to go to a machine shop with a few liners under my arm then let him search for the good match.

Regards bernhard
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 28, 2018, 09:18:41 AM
Hey Bernhard, I`m in the same boat requiring a cylinder sleeving. There are two types of sleeve (wet and dry) the dry ones have a wall thickness of around 3mm and are pressed into place, with an interference fit of around 3 thou, before being machined top and bottom. Wet sleeves have a much thicker wall and involve machining the barrel out through to the water jacket. The sleeve is pressed into place and has o rings to maintain a water tight seal top and bottom. I believe that quite a lot of Indian clone engines now come with a wet liner which is relatively easy to replace.

You might want to check out Dieselspanner who did a very good restoration recently and showed a picture of a dry sleeve.

Good luck, keep us posted,
Bob







Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: mikenash on May 28, 2018, 09:58:13 AM
Hi Bernard, Hi Bob

I had this same conversation with a very good local machine shop last year

FWIW this was the conclusion:

There are plenty of liners around and they're cheap - maybe $100?  They can bore your barrel to size and press in a new liner and trim the top and bottom etc.  Then, if you have a piston - or dimensions of the one you want to use - they will use their experience to decide on a clearance and machine the liner internally (bore it) to make it circular and of the right size

This is where it gets potentially trickier.  Original Listers have a really clever, chrome-coated bore designed to hold a film of oil and resist wear - that "hard" bore is designed to work in combination with "soft" piston rings - I think I have that right and others, more knowledgeable, will correct me if I dont

Your new bore will be of "soft" cast iron and will require "hard" (perhaps chromed?) piston rings - and that may require machining work to the piston - depending on what is available?

That is my understanding

So a "rebore" is only half the question, I believe

"do your homework" is probably the advice

FWIW the finished job of re-sleeving, trimming and boring to suit a piston dimension and then "facing" the barrel square top and bottom was $390

I just bought  new, Indian, barrel for the same price

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 28, 2018, 12:22:17 PM
Hey guys, I concur. I can buy a whole new cylinder casting for about one third of the price of repairing the original. There are different qualities of replacements available, as far as I know, no one is supplying a chrome plated cylinder block to the original specification. If anyone knows otherwise please let us know.

Bob
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: saba on May 28, 2018, 12:35:10 PM
Thanks for the replies, I was hoping somebody could point me to "cheapliners.com" page 3 thats the one you need.
 A few years ago a machine shop did a job for me on a perkins 4 cil. I think it was around $450 for 4  new dry liners in the block, the liners came with the overhaul kit.
Some time ago i bought two blocks in india but the quality was so bad that I took them of again.One was seeping coolant from casting faults under the paint and the otherone just had a small casting fault in the liner surface I never even bother to use it.

So I have to do something with the original ones I have.

regards Bernhard.


Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: Johndoh on May 28, 2018, 01:57:14 PM
https://www.stationaryengineparts.com/home.php
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: 38ac on May 28, 2018, 07:52:57 PM
 You are over thinking it. ;)  Any shop that has the capibilities to bore and install sleeves knows what where and how to aquire the correct one for your application and most ( I wont) intall one unless I supply it. Has nothing to due with profit, has everything to due with who is going to eat the cost if issues crop up. You do NOT want to bore a non wet sleeve block for an India wet sleeve. You want a dry one. I use 3/32 wall sleeves made the two best in the buisiness. The material is superior to the OEM cast iron . The bore is finished after installation to Lister specs so you drop in a standard piston with rings for cast iron bore and that's it. If the shop know's thier stuff they will leave a ridge in the bottom of the bore, that way it is held from moving both by the press fit and by being captive by the head gasket and the ridge in the bottom.
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: mikenash on May 29, 2018, 12:35:21 AM
also:

https://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Lister-CS-type-Cylinder.html

I bought an Indian head for my Cs a while back.  seems to run just like a OE one.  I would consider an Indian cylinder

Cheers
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: saba on May 29, 2018, 02:30:52 AM
Thanks for the replies, I contacted the machine shop some weeks back and they are to busy at the moment. For them this is something to do in a spare hour.
I will ask him and will feed back the result to  here, might take a while .

About the cilinder of stationairy eng parts, maybe they have better control over the quality of the parts they reseave. I ordered a buch of parts directly from india most was ok but the cilinderblock I used first after mounting and running the engine I found out the coolingwater side cover was made of cheap putty and steel,of course the putty fell out after 10 minutes  could put my finger in the hole, but easy to replace with original cover. then after a few running hours the block started seeping cooling water from multiple places from the cast from under the paint. Come on...

Probebly I was just unluckey.

Thanks for the suggestions,

Bernhard
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: 38ac on May 29, 2018, 12:08:12 PM
There are a lot of reject castings that make their way out if India no matter who you buy them from. What does make a difference is who will do something about it after the sale.   

One of the posters had mentioned India blocks with chrome bores. Yes indeed their are chromed bore non-sleeved 7 stud blocks made in India. The parts kits I have in stock have them. To tell you the truth with today's ring materials and lubricants I think Id rather just have cast iron and no thave to deal with the idiosyncrasies of chrome bores.
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: listeroil on May 29, 2018, 03:36:56 PM
Saba

You do not say where you live in your profile but if you live in the UK.
 Westwood cylinder liners might have just what you need.
   
Part No.              Inside Diameter       Outside Diameter         Length      
                           MM    Inch              MM       Inch             MM            Inch    
WCL 40F      114.30   4.500   120.73   4.753   250.83   9.875   

https://www.westwoodcylinderliners.co.uk/products/browse-by-size/

Mick
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 29, 2018, 11:09:11 PM
I agree with 38ac, The Listard chrome was effective when originally used, nowadays with improvements in metallurgy and lubrication a steel or cast iron bore with hard rings should be reliable and have good longevity.
Which brings us back to the question of which oil to use and should it be filtered?

Bob
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: mikenash on May 30, 2018, 12:02:27 AM
Interesting.

I'm behind the eight-ball tech-wise on this . . .

So is the thinking that a "soft" iron bore, with the correct "hard" steel rings matched to it, will give good longevity?

(Bearing in mind - as has been discussed to death - that oil and filtration is much much better than 60 years ago)

And, not to re-ignite the debate but, with  a "rebuilt" engine would you think of using a modern detergent and filtering those suspended particles?  Or an older-style oil like that Morris stuff and allowing particles to sink

(I guess the big-end and mains are still 60 years old . . . .

Cheers
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 30, 2018, 12:41:09 AM
Hey Mike, There has been endless debate about which oil to use in slow speed diesel engines. I cannot see that adding a filter will do any harm and may do some good as long as it does not clog up and cause oil starvation. Some oil filter housings have a bypass valve to prevent this from happening.
I think a much greater cause of wear in any engine is cold starting when the lubricant is thick and does not flow easily. The huge mass of a Lister/Listeroid engine requires a long time to reach full operating temperature and condensation in the crankcase can also be a problem. I have wondered about building some sort of oil heater but it`s probably more trouble than it`s worth.

Bob
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: mikenash on May 30, 2018, 12:46:17 AM
Yep, as far as I can tell the oil in the sump of my old CS was an emulsion of tar, rainwater and diesel - it didn't seem to mind  :)
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: saba on May 30, 2018, 02:19:53 AM
Hello listeroil, thanks for the pointer. I am dutch.

I work abroad so for the coming weeks there's not gonna be much action from my side, but when i'm home i will visit the machine shop with a cilinder block  and ask his opinion. The perkins he did for me he later machined the inside to spec. I will hear what the guy has to say, for them it's just some extra pocket money there normal job is biogas engines, combined heat and power engines.
Here at my job I have equipment that i could give it a try myself but taking a cilinder block in my suitcase is not an option.
Maybee he will give me pointers of what size to order or he will get them himself we shall see.
If I would live nearby I would bring them to mister 38ac was it only to have look at his shop.

Thanks for the input

Bernhard
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: saba on May 30, 2018, 08:04:41 AM
Just looked again at westwood liners, there's a 1mm finish left so that must be the one.....
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: 38ac on May 30, 2018, 12:20:46 PM
The bore size listed  is not what you will have after it is pressed in a block!  It is a size that you can expect it will finish finish if properly installed. NO matter how round or what size a thin wall dry liner is when you purchase it it will be neither one after it is pressed in.  The actual process is you measure the sleeve O.D. in four spots, average the measurements and bore the block several thousands smaller depending on bore size. Because I do a few of them I have a fixture for the CS. After boring the block on the HBM I move the table back and press the sleeve in the block with a 25 ton porta power. Next the top is trimmed and a light deck cut is made on the same machine. Then the sleeve is bored  .010 under size and then honed to size.

Here is a couple videos taken before I made up my block jig. The HBM was built in 1939 and is true within .0002 length of the bed, amazing.

Boring a CS block on the #25 Giddings Lewis   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M6cVL-M5Gs

Facing a CS head on same machine  https://youtu.be/bV1EGJ43YB4
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: glort on May 30, 2018, 12:56:18 PM

The cheapest Crap supermarket oil you can get your hands on these days is at worst one rating specification below the good stuff.
That makes the cheap oil about 5000 times better than could have been dreamed of when the engines were made.... or the originals were stopped being made.

I read up on oil a while back and something I read espoused that the old thing of changing the filter every 2nd change was the worst thing that could be done.  If there is enough crap in the oil to block it it 2 changes worth of running, once the filter blocks and goes to bypass all that will be chewing out the metal. They said better to run clean old oil than dirty new oil.  Makes sense to me.

On that end, putting a Filter on surely couldn't hurt. Question is, would it help?
Would the engine with the filter get appreciably longer life than if it did not have a filter?  Time the one without the filter needs a rebuild, would the one with a filter be tired and buggered anyway?

My guess is it probably would because as pointed out, the wear factor isn't just limited to the oil.

One thing that did and still does strive me as very ignorant and naieve is people that want an engine to start fast.
I saw this all the time in veg oil circles. People gauges the quality of their oil/ bio by wether the thing would fire on teh 2nd compression stroke.
I find this ..... Dumb... really.

I had a car in my younger days with a very worked engine. I had the ignition set up so there was a kill switch on the coil. This wasn't to deter theft, I put it there so I could wind the thing up a bit till I knew the oil pump was primed before I started it to avoid those few sec where she would be running dry.
Doing it this way, on start up the tack and the oil pressure needles moved at the exact same time when I did light.

When I had my mercc, the thing had a manual Glow plug button. Same thing, wind it up a bit to get the oil pump primed, glow the plugs then light it up.
The one I have now has auto plugs but I get in it and wind it over straight away  so it's primed a bit before the thing fires.

Merlin's and other aircraft  as well as tank engines had electric oil priming pumps as do/did some race cars and boats.  They are meant to have the engines at near or full oil pressure when they hit.  Once running the primer pump is switched off.

Would seem to me to be real easy to do with a Lister. Wind it over on the compressor to get the oil moving a bit longer in cold weather then drop the valve. For those with a pump, this would work well, For those without, hard to know if there will be enough splash but there soon will be!  :0)
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: saba on June 01, 2018, 01:58:19 AM
To 38ac,

Thats a machine.....you can bore tunnels with that.
impressive.

Bernhard
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 01, 2018, 03:08:22 AM
Wow, what a sweet machine, can`t tell you how much I want one of those.
Bob
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: listard-jp2 on June 02, 2018, 08:47:34 AM
Even Lister's themselves tired of the Chromard process towards the end of Lister CS production, as the later engines which have the modified cylinder block [the crankcase end has a lot less material in the casting, and the 3/4" BSW studs are completely exposed at the crankcase end] are un-plated in the cylinder bore.

It used to be possible [no more] to get finished to size chrome plated dry press liners from here: http://www.laystall.co.uk/cyl-products.php

But you can still get an Indian approximation if you know where to look, and indeed it is the case that some of the Indian manufacturers who don't have the chrome plating ability, buy these liners and press fit them to their own cylinder blocks.

See here for an example of what I mean: https://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Lister-CS-type-Cylinder.html

Did a bit of dry liner installation work myself back in the day, I used to leave an extra 0.001" in the bore, then with a cylinder bore hone we used to knock the high spots off, left by the Van Norman 777 boring bar. This made liner installation so much easier and with a lot less distortion.
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: Johndoh on June 06, 2018, 01:12:26 PM
http://realdiesels.co.uk

http://www.sleeman-hawken.co.uk/suppliers/lister-petter.html

Both these companies have obsolete and hard to find parts for old engines. real diesels have the lower postage rates!
Title: Re: witch liners for a lister 6-1 to rebore
Post by: saba on July 04, 2018, 07:16:12 PM
A small update on the matter, I got a quote from westwood liners, 38 pounds for a liner. Without tax and postage.

I found another workshop in the nabourhood they charge 60 euro's for boring 10 for pressing it in and another 60 for the finish.He could not give me a price for the liner but he mentioned it would not be breathtaking. So thats 130 euro without tax for the work. Not bad I think. I will think about it I have at least three that are maxed out on size if you add it up it still some money....

If I go ahead I will post the results,

Bernhard