Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: Viking66 on April 08, 2018, 09:55:10 PM

Title: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 08, 2018, 09:55:10 PM
Hi Everyone!!!

My name is Thom and I live in South Louisiana.  I have been reading on this forum for a good while and have enjoyed everything so far very much.

I have always liked Listers and Listeroid type motors since I first saw and heard them.  I was recently lucky enough to purchase a whole Motor/Generator unit.  I am trying to determine if it is a 12, or a 16 HP.  It has a 20KW Generator Head with it and the pair look to been together a good while.

Are the any easy determining factors on which HP it may be?

Once I reduce the pic sizes, I will post a few pics of this beast.  The entire unit, Motor, Genhead and frame all weigh in at 1710 pounds.  They had an industrial scale at the place I picked it up from.  They were nice enough to satidfy my curiosity and weighed it for me  ;D

Thom
Title: Re: Greetings All!!!
Post by: 38ac on April 09, 2018, 01:16:22 AM
 Welcome to the forum!
While most anything is possible out if India the bulk of the engines that are rated at 12HP have the 139.7mm stroke of the CS. But have up sized 127 or 130mm bores and are rated at 1000RPM.
The 16 HP engines that I have been around (3) have a 160mm stroke and same 127 or 130mm bore.
The crankcases are taller  and the cylinder blocks are taller on the 16 HP engine and all I have seen are D.I.  I can measure some blocks later if you wish, not at the shop right now.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!!
Post by: Viking66 on April 09, 2018, 02:21:36 AM
Thanks 38ac!!

I measured the Crankcase and it is 18.25” and the Cylinder Blocks are 9.25”. The Flywheels are 20” x 4”

Some basic measurements on this one.  The PO has converted it to no COV.  It appears he either replaced the Heads, or has the blocked off very nicely.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!!
Post by: 38ac on April 09, 2018, 11:55:52 AM
I have never seen an engine rated higher than 8HP with a COV but once more, anything is possible from India and I certainly haven't seen it all. I will measure some parts this evening and post.

I think it is pretty much a given that western standards do not apply to parts and assemblies from India but it would seem to be less known that moral and/or ethical standards are not western either. I was exposed to that part of the equation early on in my India engine experiances when I drove 5 hours to purchase what I was told was a India VA clone. The fellow who imported it knew better but was trying to palm off his misfortune on somebody else. He talked to an exporter and told them what he wanted, a VA clone. India says Yessir! send us some cash!  They sent him an air cooled Petteroid that had two flywheels and a tag that read 6.5HP and 700RPM,,, BuXXshXX!!! I bought the engine only because it was a curiosity.   What all this has to due with your questions? About the time a person assumes ANYTHING with India they will step out and make a liar out of ya, LOL.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!!
Post by: Viking66 on April 10, 2018, 02:31:05 AM
Hi again!

I re-sized the pics.  I am hoping I do this right so you can see this beast.

I read on the Power Line site that Flywheels that are 20" X 4" are on the big 24/2  Mine measure very close to this.  The width is 4.07"

Here is the chart I am referencing:

 http://www.poweranand.com/slow_speed_lister_type.htm

I tried to start it tonight, but my battery wore out, so i am re-charging it. :)  I will try again tomorrow.  I left the fuel feed open hoping that maybe gravity will get the lines totally filled overnight.  It may work.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!!
Post by: 38ac on April 10, 2018, 12:19:27 PM
Ooops, scratch everything I said, I assumed your were talking about a single cylinder engine.   :P

12 and 16HP twins have stock CS bores and strokes. The main difference is RPM. 12HP at 650 RPM, 16HP at 800 RPM.  If the engine follows CS specs the 12 will have cast iron pistons and COVs while the 16 would have aluminum pistons and COV blanking plugs, The pulley sizes on your setup indicates it is a higher speed engine.  You set the engine by the Hz on the head, not voltage. If the engin eis running much over 800 RPM at 60Hz I would change pulleys myself as I am no fan of higher speeds and the CS design.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!!
Post by: Viking66 on April 10, 2018, 02:32:04 PM
Thanks for the response 38ac.  I am very familiar with Generators.  I have done several re-builds on both Onan and Kohler Generators, so I am very familiar with setting by Hz, but thanks for pointing that out.  The gold generator in the background of the first pic is a recent Kohler build I did.  It has a Lister ST3 on it.  Needed new Rod bearing and a few other things and a good cleanup, runs and generates perfectly!

As you can see from the normal engine grime and stuff on this motor it is, or was a runner for a good while.  My understanding is the man who owned it died and the family was in the process of selling things off none of them wanted or needed???

I am going to continue to get it running today after work and then I can gauge what RPM it is currently set at.  I am with you.  I do not want it running at 1000 RPM.  It will be interesting to see once it fires up.

My plan is to make it look nice, make a cart of some sort so I can at least move it around and go from there.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 11, 2018, 12:33:42 AM
I am getting it to turn over nicely but it will still not pop over.

I am getting some white smoke out of the pipe, so that’s a bit promising.  I pulled the Injectors and put a bit of 30 weight in but that didn’t get it to fire off.  Life is always an adventure  ;D

I have no idea how long it has been since it was started, so this may take awhile.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: 38ac on April 11, 2018, 02:26:31 AM
 Are the injectors making a creaking noise when you crank it over with the fuel rack open?  If not you either have air in tbe lies or stuck pintles from sitting. A other things g that happens often when engines have sat a while is carbon falls off and gets stuck under the valves and they leak. Take a soft mallet and rap on the top of the rockers. This open the valves and knocks the carbon off.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 11, 2018, 11:15:15 AM
I believe they are, but I will ask a friend to crank it over and have a good listen for it.  It seems to get to that point where the compression is high enough to make it fire, but the starter/battery/my arm just cannot get it past that one point where it is about to fire.  My Nephew is a strong young man, so I am going to ask him to come by and crank on this beast some...LOL

I was happy when I found a small part I had noted as missing was found  :)  I was removing some dirt and yuck and I noticed the part.  I was happy.  It is the part on the rocker arm that holds the brass cap so you can apply grease there.  The brass cap was also there.  I was thinking it may be a difficult part to find by itself, so I saved a little time and cash for my further efforts!

I do appreciate the advice by all  ;D :D ;D :D
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: oldgoat on April 11, 2018, 11:42:35 AM
Borrow your wife's hair dryer and blast a bit of hot air down the intake that should lite it off with less damage  than starting fluid.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 11, 2018, 11:18:40 PM
Success...well sort of  ;D  I got it to run on one cylinder using a combination of hot air from my wife's blow dryer as suggested...Thanks, and some WD40.

Not sure what going on with the 2nd cylinder, but I have seen this beast run so now I am happy.

I know I can get the 2nd one working, but before I do I plan on doing a major cleanup of things.

I do not have a water source connected to this engine yet, so I only let it run maybe 30 seconds at the most.

My friends who were by to help loved it, even with all of the exhaust it created...LOL

I will keep everyone posted on things go.

Thom
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: mike90045 on April 11, 2018, 11:46:36 PM
...I do not have a water source connected to this engine yet, so I only let it run maybe 30 seconds at the most....

Just cap the bottom water pipe, and put an elbow and a bit of riser on the top pipe and fill it with water.   Then check the crankcase and make sure no leaks into the oil.     
You have just made a water hopper for keeping temps under control while test running .  I wouldn't run more than 10 min or so like this, but it will buy enough time to get the 2nd cyl lit.   Not sure, but WD-40 may be using Co2 as propelant, so only blow it in alternate cycles.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 12, 2018, 12:16:24 AM
Thanks, I will put the water in the way you discribed.  My neighbor who was there said his Dad who worked on Diesels used it so we gave it a try.  It worked so I was happy just to hear it run, even if just one cylinder so far :D
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 12, 2018, 06:48:30 PM
I was able to get it to pop off in the 2nd cylinder today, but it didn't stay going.

I am going to go through the fuel system and clean things up real good and give it another go.

I also noticed that oil pressure gauge is not working and I do not think the pump is working, so that is also on the agenda.

Tomorrow is an off day, so I will have a lot of time to goof off and get all dirty...LOL

Thom
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 13, 2018, 08:01:23 PM
I have begun my cleanup and tear down of this Beast and I discovered it is a 24/2.  I measured across the cylinder and it mics out at 5.11" and 129.7mm  According to the Power Line site that would be there 24/2  It also has the 20" x 4" Flywheels too.

Ok, does anyone know if there are parts available, such as a Gasket set?  It doesn't appear that I will need anything else as this was a complete motor when I bought it.

I never mentioned that I was able to buy this on ebay with a "Buy it Now" for $1199.00 and a trip to Waco, TX and back for a round trip of 1090 miles all on a Saturday...LOL.  I had been saving up for a new single, but when I saw this one I just had to make the move.  I am not sure the value of it, but my plan was to keep it anyways because I just love the look and sound of them!!!

Thom
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 13, 2018, 09:34:30 PM
It appears that the valves are touching the tops of the pistons.  You can see a shadow of them on the piston tops.

How would I prevent this in the future?

Thom

Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: BruceM on April 14, 2018, 01:23:48 AM
Valve clearance to the piston is small, so with some carbon build up, valve shadowing is noticeable by the 1000 hr decarbon time.

Check your bump clearance, and valve depth in the head just to be safe.  It's a good idea to not trust what comes from Rajkot without going over everything carefully.

 
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: 38ac on April 14, 2018, 02:13:19 AM
 You should be ableto get 130mm head gaskets from Gary at DES. If not then Central Maine diesel.  I have one but that doesn't help you.much. If those valve shadows are all black it's OK. If they are silver but no dents in the piston they are REAL close. All the high speed engines I have been in show similar patterns on the piston

.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 14, 2018, 04:19:04 AM
The Valve Shadows are all black, nothing indented into the pistons.  Thanks for letting me know it's a normal thing.

I drained the oil, that was not a pretty sight, and there is about 3/8" worth of sludge on the bottom of the sump, so of course that is getting a good clean out.  How does the front oil drain pipe get mounted?  I pulled it out so I could clean the screen, and it was totally plugged.  I figure that's why I wasn't getting any oil pressure.   I thought there would be a big nut like on the outside, but in the sump, but I don't see one.

I am having a lot of fun.  I really like doing this sort of thing.  If not Generators, it's old outboards. or old boats, or new boats, or building at my Swamp Camp.  I figure if I stop I will just get old.  I am 53 now, so there are a lot of projects in front of me...LOL
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: 38ac on April 14, 2018, 11:40:49 AM
Assuming your engine was made in the stardard manner you first loosen the suction pipe between the drain and oil pump, be sure to hold the fittings that goes into the pump and drain, you just want to turn the tube nut.
 There is a jam nut on the drain fittimg, loosen it just until it's free and them turn the entire drain fitting to the left as you jiggle the suction pipe and remove it when free. Then remove  the fitting and clean the screen and sump. There is a paper washer,  or sometimes string under the jam nut and that is what seals the drain fitting and it needs to be in good shape. If you need to make one the I.D. needs to be right, make a punch from a sharpened piece of pipe or tubing and use gasket paper the medium thickness type. Because the pump is mounted above the oil things need to be right with it to function. See my twin build thread for some info on that. They also need some oil in them or they won't prime and oump. Remove the guage and squirt oil in the top to accomplish that.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 14, 2018, 02:49:52 PM
I see now how it goes.  I was a bit tired last night when I was looking things over and missed seeing that there are threads in the block, or case...whichever we call it.  Mine had a string that came out when I loosened the Jam Nut.

I plan to do more cleaning today.  This is the worst part...but also the best part because you get to see what has been going on with the engine and it helps to give a plan on how to proceed.  ;D :D
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: ronmar on April 14, 2018, 04:44:08 PM
If the check ball in the pump is gummed up and not sealing, it wont pump either.  Had to do a bit of polish work on my single pump to get it working well. 

If your squish is too tight, the valves might be closer to the piston than they should be, but your pics do indeed look like carbon buildup...  #6 lead shot from a shotgun shell works great for measuring squish as the consistent size lead ball squeezes out very nicely.  The shot from a single shotgun shell will last you about a hundred years of normal testing.  The base gasket stackup is used to set squish.  i use a little dab of grease to hold the lead shot in place on the piston top directly over each end of the wrist pin.  Doing it like this will also show you if your cylinder is tilted In relation to the plane that the piston/rod travels in.  Pay attention to the placement of any half gaskets under the cylinder base.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 16, 2018, 03:03:14 AM
I believe I have the Oil Pump Straightened out, but I do have a question.  There are slots on one side of the ball housings, which way do those go?  I am think towards the direction of the flow.  Things were quite gooey and messy when I took them apart so I didn't notice the slots.  I can always take a pic for clarification if needed.

I have also discovered I have a huge issue!!!  I want to paint this beast and to do it correctly I want to remove the Flywheels.  I have removed the Huge Starter bracket and on the side that had the starter and car flywheel attached as a Belt drive.  I was able to get that to come off after loosening the bolts and then using a puller it inched its way off the shaft.

Then I found this as the Gib Key   Ughhhhh!!!  I have tried a few things already, but really need some advice on this.  I have a welder, although I am not the best at it.  I have some nice sized hammers.  I have lots of penetrating fluid and also heat.....  Advice Please  :) :D

Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: BruceM on April 16, 2018, 03:47:00 AM
Oh boy, that was a nasty surprise.  Hopefully 38ac will have a tip for you.   I think I'd make a side hammer with a shaft and weld that on.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: mikenash on April 16, 2018, 04:31:48 AM
FWIW I reckon there are a couple of options:

One - a slide hammer - a bit of shaft welded to it with a big sliding weight and a lump of something welded on the end - see pic?

Two - weld a length of something like M16 High Tensile threaded rod to it and make a bit of a "puller".  Tension it up with the puller and apply some heat and patience around the hub area - with CRC or INOX or whatever as a penetrant.  "Patience" might be the key

Others will have thoughts
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: mikenash on April 16, 2018, 05:49:28 AM
Also, I think keysteel is funny to weld?  Might want to use an RSP or some sort of rod for odd steels?  Again, someone more educated than me will know.  Good luck
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: ajaffa1 on April 16, 2018, 12:34:52 PM
Hey Viking66, I came up against this exact problem a while ago. I found that I could easily weld a length of threaded rod to the remains of the gig key. To avoid weld splatter damaging the crank shaft I cut out an old baked bean can to cover it. I then used a piece of 100 mm pipe and some 12mm steel bar to improvise a puller. Didn`t work first time but she came out on the second attempt, please see photos

Bob
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 16, 2018, 02:05:04 PM
Awesome!!!   Awesome!!!!  Awesome!!!!  Just they type of advice I am looking for!


ajaffa1, Thank you for the pics.  I have all of that in my Garage and I hope to make that work.  This board is a very cool place, and the knowledge is really appreciated.

Thom
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: 38ac on April 16, 2018, 02:52:48 PM
For as long as there has been gibb keys people have seen similar issues with heads sheared off and same people have been looking for an easy work around and so far none have surfaced.  What I do in the shop is same thought pattern I use with twisted off bolts and studs,  avoid methods that have the potential to make the problem worse. Unsuccessful welding makes things to hard to drill with ordinary bits, off center drilling has it's own set of problems. I avoid drilling except as last resort and have never had to do it,, yet.   You can google removing stuck gibb keys or similar and get all kind of information.  How I do it is not easily or cheaply replicated but neither do I make the problem worse with my methods.  If it makes you feel good spray some pen oil on it otherwise just avoid the mess and have at it. Hopefully there is at least a small bit of room between the flywheel and housing, if not then the first thing I do is cuss whoever installed them >:(  If there is even a small amount of room to move inward mount an old  taper lock pulley hub to the shaft right at the end. I then use two porta power cylinders between the hub and flywheel to push the flywheel inward. If the key stays put on the shaft it can usually then be knocked out with a long chisel working through the spokes. If it moves with the flywheel all is not lost as you have indeed loosened it to some extent.  Next tool is similar to what was posted, a length of pipe that fits over the shaft and long enough to reach the flywheel and a couple inches  past the end of the crankshaft. Make a cap for the pipe from at least 3/8" steel that has hole a bit larger than 1" in the middle. You need  1" fine thread grade 8 bolt and nut or a length of grade 8 all thread (warning! $spendy$$)  The nut gets tack welded to the cap and goes inside of the pipe. Weld the cap to the pipe. Adjust the length of the pipe so you maximize use of the threads you have on the bolt then cut a slot in the pipe the width and length of the exposed key. Do not make the slot so wide that you can get weld on the shaft.  Weld the pipe to the key and then tighten the puller bolt up tight to the shaft. I cannot type exactly how far to tighten it but you dont want to break your puller at this point.  Then go find something else to do for a couple hours.  When you return see if the puller has loosened. If not then its your judgement how hard to lean on the puller. I do NOT like to heat flyhweel hubs and avoid it except as only recourse. I will break the puller before I use heat and have only had one that required it and it wasn't much. If the flywheel try to come with the key you need a helper to knock on the flywheel hub while the puller is being turned
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: mikenash on April 16, 2018, 07:07:53 PM
anti-spatter aerosol spray  :)
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: ajaffa1 on April 17, 2018, 09:53:34 AM
anti-spatter aerosol spray  :)
Don`t use that expensive sh1t anymore, a mate who is professional welder, swears by olive oil spray which can be bought in any supermarket for 1/4 the price. Works great.

Bob
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 17, 2018, 11:23:09 AM
I gathered up all the bits I need to Make this happen...(Power of Positive Thinking ;))  So tonight after work my plan is set.

I will keep you all posted.

I do not have any Anti-Splatter Spray, or Olive Oil Spray so I will go for the old can method to avoid the splatter...

Thom
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: ajaffa1 on April 17, 2018, 11:49:01 AM
Good luck with it Thom. It didn`t work for me first time, the weld broke once and I stripped the thread on the stud rod the second time. Plenty of lubrication and washers recommended. Take your time and if it still won`t move tension it and apply plenty of penetrating oil, leave overnight and tension again in the morning. Heat is your last resort but can do more harm than good if overused. keep us informed.

Bob
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: ajaffa1 on April 17, 2018, 01:02:47 PM
Way to go Glort, the gentle use of a persuader can be very effective (shame we can`t use them on politicians) Another trick I have used successfully in the past is freeze spray. I haven`t seen it in Australia but in the UK it was commonly used to freeze water pipes where no stop valve was available. They come with a sealed bandage which you wrap around the shaft or pipe, you then vent the contents off the freezing canister into the bandage. The solvent evaporates very rapidly dropping the shaft/pipe temperature to approx. minus 30 degrees Celsius. Very good for sealing water pipes and shocking stuck components out of their slumber. A bit pricey but ok as a last resort.

Bob
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: mike90045 on April 18, 2018, 07:44:01 AM
Way to go Glort, the gentle use of a persuader can be very effective (shame we can`t use them on politicians) Another trick I have used successfully in the past is freeze spray. I haven`t seen it in Australia but in the UK it was commonly used to freeze water pipes where no stop valve was available. They come with a sealed bandage which you wrap around the shaft or pipe, you then vent the contents off the freezing canister into the bandage. The solvent evaporates very rapidly dropping the shaft/pipe temperature to approx. minus 30 degrees Celsius. Very good for sealing water pipes and shocking stuck components out of their slumber. A bit pricey but ok as a last resort.   Bob   

You can go too cold, and break things.  Common way to  steal bicicles, freez the lock with cold spray, whack it 1 time, and it shatters into dust
http://collections.dartmouth.edu/arctica-beta/html/EA02b-02.html
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: mikenash on April 18, 2018, 08:24:37 AM
Good luck with it Thom. It didn`t work for me first time, the weld broke once and I stripped the thread on the stud rod the second time. Plenty of lubrication and washers recommended. Take your time and if it still won`t move tension it and apply plenty of penetrating oil, leave overnight and tension again in the morning. Heat is your last resort but can do more harm than good if overused. keep us informed.

Bob

I'm a fan of heat.  If you use a propane/MAPP gas torch you won't over-heat the hub unless you hold it for a long time in one place.  But if you heat all around the hub - alternating spots around it - until dirt/grease smokes off it and paint starts to sizzle, you'll be fine.  Even better if you do it while under a bit of tension from the puller.  All you are wanting to do is to expand the hub a very small amount so that its bond with the shaft is reduced.  AND, once it has cooled down, then penetrating oil will penetrate much more easily.  Tension, heat, penetrant . . . good luck
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: dax021 on April 18, 2018, 08:58:02 AM
And, as has been mentioned before, the best penetrating oil money can buy is homemade, 50% ATF 50% Acetone.  Works very well.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 18, 2018, 11:17:35 AM
Well attempt number 1 Fail!!  It broke the All-Thread, but the part that I welded on to the Key is still there and stable.  I left enough space between the end of the All-Thread and the hub to be able to get something behind it like Gib Key Tool. 

I have tried a few things so far, but still no movement.  I am looking to buy a tool, but close to $40.00 (Tool cost + shipping) is a lot for a tool I may only use 2 times, so I am still mucking about in my Garage for something that may work instead.

I am not one to give up easily..believe me, so this too will one day be a fond memory on the journey of my New to me 24/2  LOL

I will take a pic later of what I am now working with and we can round table and throw out ideas  :D ;)

Just how long are the Gib Keys we deal with?

Thom
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: dieselspanner on April 18, 2018, 12:17:16 PM
For what it's worth.....

Tune the radio on to a station playing zydeco 24/7, get a cold one..........

Assuming all thread is what I know as studding, continuously threaded round bar, get a larger, much larger size.

Make an end cap for the shaft that will support the studding 'half on' the out board end of the shaft, after welding it to the gib head key.

Squirt plenty of 10% ATF / 90% acetone around the  place and grease the thread. put as much tension as you dare on the studding, making sure it stays parallel to the shaft. Keeping it all parallel is the key to gaining maximum force.

With the shaft at 12 o'clock, beat on the boss at 3 and 9 o'clock with 2 similarly weighted hammers, at the same time for a few seconds.

Have a good chug on the can, turn the radio up and repeat every few minutes, whilst doing something else, keep squirting the ATF mix on. Pack up when you've had enough, but leave the tension on.

Try again tomorrow.

The theory is that you will fractionally ovalise the bore, allowing the lube to travel along the shaft. I've had some success with similar methods removing marine propellers and couplings from stainless steel prop shafts.

As Butch said, if there's room try and drive the flywheel towards the crankcase, with the tension on. Above all take your time, more beer and zydeco.......

Cheers Stef
 
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: 38ac on April 18, 2018, 12:24:55 PM
The learning curves with such problems are pretty steep and often people get themselves in real trouble before they stop but at least you are not at that point, LOL.   I do realize that the average owner isnt going to invest in tooling like I have to do one job but there was a reason for the grade 8 spec for bolt or all thread in my post. 8) Remember that if it wasn't stuck hard the head would not be off of the key to begin with.

I had an engine in my shop that the owner had manged to mangle the key, shaft and flywheel so bad with weld, holes, and beat and bang that  I had to take the engine down and pull the main bearing housing crankshaft and flywheel as a unit.  I then had to saw and then break the main bearing housing  off the crankshaft.  I welded the key to the crankshaft and everything went to a 50 ton press to side the flywheel off the key. What a mess!  I once again go back to,, study what your about to attempt and dont make the problem worse!!!
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: ajaffa1 on April 18, 2018, 12:26:42 PM
Hey Viking66, like I said before My first attempt didn`t work either I also managed to the snap the all-thread. I simply ground it off and welded a new piece in place and tried again. Gibb key came out on the second go. I suspect that the heat from the welding process may have helped loosen things.

Above all else avoid Stef`s advice to consume dangerous quantities of cold beer. It does nothing for the gibb key and irritates the sh1t out of the wife. :laugh:

chin up mate,
Bob
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: dieselspanner on April 18, 2018, 07:58:39 PM
Don't be too alarmed by people who decry the use of beer whilst engaging in the fine art of Bush Engineering. It slows down the whole process, allowing for further cogitation after retiring early with the lads to argue over who's made the biggest cock up.

The same people probably confuse zydeco and prozac...............

Cheers

Stef
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 18, 2018, 11:15:19 PM
I do like Zydeco Music and actually have some on my phone that can play  8)  I do like beer, and shots of Crown on a fun get together.  I don't drink during the week though.  I have way to much to deal with at work, and it's so much easier not nursing a Hangover...LOL

To the matter at hand...here is what I am left to deal with.  Also I had some steel plate in my Garage and a friend has a big Ban Saw so we cut a tool.  It needs adjusting and I need a bigger hammer, but it may yet work.  If it doesn't I will get the next bigger size Allthread and try that route again.



Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: BruceM on April 18, 2018, 11:42:38 PM
Not much hope of the wedge working on a badly stuck key... I've used that method when fitting keys, but it didn't work for me for a stuck key.  I have one of the monster gib key pullers from Rajkot (I think) that Mike Montieth sold, a huge square threaded screw in a steel drum which pushes on the end of the crankshaft, and has a thrust bearing.  With a 4 foot steel rod it has not failed, so far. 

Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 19, 2018, 11:34:11 PM
Success!!!!! ;D ;D :D :D :) :)

Bigger bolt, stronger tube.  I actually used a real thick wall underground cable plastic pipe.  I found it at a construction site close to my work in their junk pile.  Man said "Sure you can have that"   Yaay


Now on to the other side.  I may just grind that one down too and do it the same way.  Thanks for all of the Amazing Ideas!!
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: mike90045 on April 20, 2018, 02:58:57 AM
Just be sure to mark the flywheels and get them on the side they came off of.   
(aren't they different - mirror image, not identical ?)
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 20, 2018, 03:26:59 AM
I thought that was the hard side.  The other side has broken two welds already  >:( :)

I am going to soak it with some Breakfree for a couple of days while I go do some work at my Swamp Camp.

Thom
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 20, 2018, 12:06:25 PM

I have never been a big Drinker although the last few years with things I have been though I have certainly given it a lot more of a nudge.
Thing is though, I can hold my booze way beyond what the normal person can. I have actually been properly tested, twice, in a research study.  They did it twice because I was so unaffected the first time they thought there was a cock up and so asked me to do it again. I got even better results the 2nd time.

Was surprising because I would have thought a non drinker would be a lot more affected than a regular drinker but apparently not so. I can drink a LOT of Booze and my blood alcohol reading is still easily within me being allowed to drive which was the purpose of the study which was done by a branch of the cops.
I can drink anything and don't like to mix spirits. Just over ice is perfect.  Only thing is I cannot stand Beer! About every 10 years I get talked into trying it again and it STILL tastes like cat's piss to me. Even the smell of it is off putting.

 If I go somewhere I usually have a Drink or 2 when I get there and then am happy to drink soft drink the rest of the night. If I ever pushed my luck, for sure I'd get done the way things go for me. I had a mate that was pretty fond of the turps. All the sudden I NEVER saw him drink a thing. I asked him once if something happened to change his habits or outlook. He said yes, I had Children. He also always had fairly expensive performance cars and he reasoned that if anything ever happened to the kids, he could get them to a hospital a lot faster than an Ambulance especially on the outskirts where he lived which would have been entirely true.  Now the kids are grown up, I guess he's used to not drinking and still never does.
Might be why he is so well off and cashed up.

Was funny a couple of weeks ago. Went and stayed at mates place who is fond of a drop.  We were going through half a dozen bottles of red a night and running out. His Mrs laughed how he would be off the planet and could barely speak and I was right as rain including the next morning.
I don't know how people drink like that regularly though, it gets bloody expensive! I thought I'd get something different one night and got some bourbon.  Mate was doing all the pouring in the kitchen and was just drinking red. Got a hell of a surprise when he said I had polished off the whole bottle and it wasn't even that late.

Turps seems to make people feel better about things. Wish it worked that way for me.
Just makes me feel worse when I figure out what it cost me and I really didn't get much for it. I can't even forget my troubles in my sleep! :0(

What is "red" ?
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: 38ac on April 20, 2018, 01:58:45 PM
Just be sure to mark the flywheels and get them on the side they came off of.   
(aren't they different - mirror image, not identical ?)

The flywheel keyway is tapered thus you always need to keep the same side out.  If the engine is externally balanced you also need to also keep them on the same side  or else the weight will be 180 degrees out.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 20, 2018, 02:02:19 PM
I just couldn't let it sit...LOL

I went at it again and re-did the weld, a lot more weld this time and I got it to go!!!  I did whack the threaded rod once everything was all tight and it made that sudden POP!  And I knew it was free.

Both of the wheels are also loose on the shaft, so I just need to get those off using my engine hoist and I can move on.  As far as remembering which is which, the one driving the Genhead has all of the paint wore off but I have a marking kit so I will number them  ;D

Now I can go to my Camp and do other things and my brain will not be wondering how to make all of this happen.

Thom
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 20, 2018, 03:58:31 PM
As tight as they were the wedge was not going to make it happen!!

Welding and a big threaded rod was the ticket.  I did grind down the head on the 2nd key so I could weld the rod to it.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Willw on April 20, 2018, 09:39:36 PM
Hi guys, I recently found this comparison of Penetrating Oils on YouTube. I realize that it is late for this instance, but some of you might still find it interesting.

[urlhttps://youtu.be/xUEob2oAKVs][/url]

https://youtu.be/xUEob2oAKVs
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 21, 2018, 12:14:41 AM
I have a Harbor Freight Vulcan Welder.  It's an Inverter type and runs on 120 and 240.  I currently only have 120 in my Garage so it works well for me.

It's not the usual HF type tool, this was a well thought out welder.

Thom
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 22, 2018, 12:56:24 AM
What a Fun Project!!!

It's amazing how simple things are, especially once you get those big heavy Flywheels off.  I have taken off the cylinders and the pistons, and plan on removing the crankshaft and Cam tomorrow.  Any special things I need to look out for when removing those items?

Once I have it tore down I will begin working off all of that wonderful India filler...Ughhh!

Here are a couple of pics of my progress.  I know everyone knows what these engines looks like, but it's fun to share.  The Crank Journals look really good to, and do the Rod Bearings, no obvious wear marks.

Crazy question. Which side is considered the Front of the engine?  I want to know so I can understand TDC.

As Always...Thanks!!!

Thom



Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: dieselspanner on April 22, 2018, 07:52:44 AM
Hi

Don't worry about which side is which....

Rotate the crank until the inlet and exhaust valves are 'rocking' i.e. one is opening as the the other is closing when you turn the crankshaft forwards and backwards 10 degrees or so.

As you are watching the valves (or, as you have the motor stripped down, the cam followers) when the inlet valve opens as the exhaust valve closes (inlet cam follower lifts as the exhaust descends) you are rotating the crank in the right direction and are on the induction stroke.

See this link for the complete four stroke cycle, its for a petrol engine, the only difference is that the ignition point is the injection point with a diesel.

http://www.mechanicalengineeringblog.com/5120-valve-timing-diagram-valve-timing-diagram-for-four-stroke-petrol-engine-valve-timing-diagram-for-four-stroke-diesel-engine/#.WtwrpOhua3A

The angles vary with the different type and model of engine, for the full story of how to put it all back together see 38 ac's fantastically detailed post on the Wall of Knowledge

After you've sorted it out get a white marker pen and mark the direction on BOTH sides of the motor, or the flywheels or you may well spend a few minuets wearing yourself out by cranking it backwards, ask me how I know..........

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 22, 2018, 04:12:53 PM
I think this engine sat up a good while given the amount of corrosion I am now seeing on the inside.  That's just adds to the justification of wanting to pull it down to Parade Rest and start over.

I think the light green paint on the inside is from India, but not sure.  I want to look around real well and repaint the inside a different color anyways.

As far as the end lobe that drives the Fuel pump I just drive that out and then take out the bolt holding the main center Cam Bearing and it should all come out...correct?  Any thing special on the Crankshaft removal?

Thanks for all.

Thom

Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 23, 2018, 06:41:45 PM
Been looking at tons of pics here on the forum and I see that red paint on the inside is really popular.

Is there a reason for this color, historical, or just better to see things in there?

Thom
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: BruceM on April 23, 2018, 06:55:57 PM
Glyptol or the much cheaper generic equivalent, red electrical varnish holds up very well to oil and fuel and so is the most common interior coating.  It's not a "color" choice, it's a pragmatic one.
Title: Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
Post by: Viking66 on April 25, 2018, 11:36:55 PM
Hey all  :D

I have the engine totally stripped down and I have also been working off all of the paint and filler off of the case.  There is lots of filler of course, and i can see some rough grinder, or sander work on the case in places, and not many big inclusions.  Overall not bad.

I am still deciding on how to go about making this engine look real good.  I could sand down the case enough to smooth it, or do the filler route.  Next up are the Flywheels for paint stripping.  My guess is there is a lot of filler on them too.

I am working up a parts list.  One of the fuel pump lobes is wrecked and so it the tapped for it, so those are added to the list.

What is the best way to determine if the TRBs are in good shape?  They appear good still, but I am no expert.

I also noted the name Standard on the bottom of the case.  I am sure this is on a lot of them, but it was cool to finally get a good look at the bottom of this beast.

Thanks for all  8)

Thom