Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Petteroids => Topic started by: Mr X on April 06, 2018, 11:50:03 PM

Title: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on April 06, 2018, 11:50:03 PM
I'm now the proud owner of a 07 k6 arrow engine. Got home and she's a hefty lil bugger. Good thing I still had a friends engine hoist. Any way I bought it cheep the price of a bottle and a case of beer. Which is a good thing cause right now it seems to be frozen. Eat her truly frozen or rusted. I gave it a squirt of w d 40 in the valves couldn't get the plug out. So I'll have to heat it up and check it out more. I sure am curious as to if these are Indian made. Cause I'm like to convert back to diesel . Looking at it I'd need a new side cover that contains the opening for the i p pump, then I'd need the cam follower. Then I'd need the fuel line and injector. I have no idea as to why the retired this and what is wrong, or maybe I'm the proud owner of a boat anchor. I just need a boat.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on April 06, 2018, 11:57:45 PM
I can find no markings of Indian Ness on it but u can see where parts were when it was a diesel. There are 2 bolt holes beside the plug hole, which used to be an injector hole. The side cover has been changed cause there is no signed of a hole foe ip pump. I read on a smokestack form that it could be a loveson sk,  ska,  or sh model.any ideas?
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: glort on April 08, 2018, 10:07:10 AM

If you are talking about an Oilfield pumping engine, I thought they were all spark  ignition to run off the well gas?

Might be it was never diesel but the provisions are there to convert it to rather than it be converted from Diesel?

Always surprised there aren't more of these things used among the DIY power community in the states at least.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: LowGear on April 08, 2018, 06:45:30 PM
I'm thinking along glorts track.  I didn't know they harvested gas from the wells but my Witte diesel has the fuel requirements as "Use no crude."  But manufacturing engine parts that will work on different fuel sources makes sense to me.  Mine did not come from an oil field but I'm pretty sure that's where Witte got their manufacturing base from.

This sounds like a case for Dieselman.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: listard-jp2 on April 08, 2018, 07:23:27 PM
Take a look at this thread on the smokestak forum, its talks about this engine, and gets real interesting at post 39

https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41957&page=4
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on April 10, 2018, 02:50:31 PM
Iv all ready been allover that smokestack fourm, there isn't much info about these lil arrows but they look sooooo much like an Indian product. There are 2 holes in the head beside the spark plug/injector hole. I'll bet the piston has been machined to reduce the compression ratio. The side cover oposit the injector side has been changed to a flat plate so there is no hole for the ip pump the spot where the fuel filter was is now converted to oil filter. And they went better by putting oil lines to the head to lubricate the valves.
I got the plug out yesterday and over the last few days the ice has melted and I can now turn the motor over, haven't really got into too much diagnosis on it cause my shop is friggin cold. Today seems a bit better so I may look at it closer. Ask the question when did petter amalgamated with lister, 60 s 70s the date on mine is 2007 where did these come from my guess is india. I'm emailing Indian suppliers to get the parts I need to convert this, well see.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on April 15, 2018, 02:38:38 PM
No it is Indian made product, I've been searching the suppliers and there are parts available to convert this back to the diesel it came from ,just a matter of a few parts. The only question is can I afford the parts plus freight, I guess I'll know soon.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on April 30, 2018, 03:47:44 PM
Voila. I found part, pretty reasonable. I need a new side cover the one I have has no bump out to accommodate injector pump. I need injector pump linkage, new governor drive, injector line, injector, hold Down for onjector and bolts. New intake and exhaust manifold. Con rod herrings and head gaskets, and other gaskets. 380.00 us. That's not too bad so I get a used  10 hp petter clone for the price of a case of beer and bottle of whisky, plus parts. Where can I find more. I can only hope that it works and I don't forget any parts cause I don't want to order and pay for more later. If you guys out there find these engines don't turn ur back on them they are a solid little engine, the crank is balanced and they look ,like a nice rig. X
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on August 05, 2018, 06:28:46 PM
Well An ad came through with some parts. I got a gasket set most fit but for the head gaskets and block shims. And I'm sure a few others. I got governor parts that fit. I got head gaskets but not fit, the blow hole is right but the bolt holes and a few water passages wont. Got new intake and exhaust manifold. And got new crank herrings not sure if they fit.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: LowGear on August 05, 2018, 08:08:37 PM
I think you might profit by upgrading your lubrication from WD 40 to just about anything including spit.  I'm now using acetone and ATF about 50-50.

A couple of photos would really be interesting.  I'm curious to see how much it looks like my Witte.

What part of the world did you find parts?
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on August 07, 2018, 03:26:04 PM
http://s106.photobucket.com/user/MRx_04/library/. Ok there pics this is going to be run on natural gas, it ran on well gas before so it's almost ready to go. I put up with running a listeroid on used veg for years. 11000 hr. I'm tired of fixing, every 150 to 1500 hr it needs to be disasembeled an decarboned and fix what ever stoped it from running. I'm getting older and don't have the ambition. It is my main source of power that and a back up Honda.
   I knew when I saw this petter it was Indian and who ever converted this did a good job, it has pressure rocker arm oil. I'm pretty sure it has pressure oiling of the con rod barring.has a nice spin on oil filter. Electric start and charging, has an oil sight glass, temp gauge, electric clutch. Shit I bet the electric clutch is worth more then I paid for the motor, which was 100.00 bucks. I have the engine rebuild shop looking around for more of these but they were never too popular in northern Alberta.  These motors were suggested to run at 400 to 800 rpm I know there good to 1500 rpm not sure where I'll run her, maybe 1000 or less. But now I have to weight for parts.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: glort on August 08, 2018, 12:56:04 AM

You have natural gas to your off grid Property?
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on August 08, 2018, 02:47:21 PM
I'm getting older and starting to think that if something happens to me my wife would be hit with a double Wammie. I don't even have to die I could fall on the ice and bust my head and never be able to perform the magic I performed around hear. And I know Mrs X wouldn't be able to turn the starting Handel on my 6/1. That leaves the Honda, very expensive power, especially in the northern winter runing up to 6 hr per day on gasoline. The power company wants 16,000 for 1 pole and transformer. And they don't finance, the ng will finance. Ng will supply both heat and produce power cheaply. I figured it out at -30 I burn 4 gal in my house heater, 4 gal in kennel heat, and 4 gal in the roid. That is 16 gal, if it was diesel instead of the free crap I burn it would cost 50 bucks / day. Converting to gigajoul it would be 9 bucks, big saving. Lotsa  people say oh u won't die, but shit happens and sooner or later it will happen. My operation is not just a turn the lights off and leave situation, thus the concern for our future.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: BruceM on August 08, 2018, 05:02:50 PM
Makes good sense all around.  NG is a bargain these days and you can always burn up to 90% NG in an your diesel.  Even a small addition of NG would eliminate your build up issues for your "free" fuels. CarbB has a great NG/diesel setup - super simple.  His setup has an AC solenoid valve that opens the fixed NG flow.

Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on August 08, 2018, 06:32:15 PM
Yah I was going to park the roid for now and this engine docent has an injector so wvo  is out of the question. I just got off the phone with big All. He used to sell these arrow petters and I'm getting a head gasket and rings, Anand won't answers my emails. If anyone is interested these are 10 hp Indian petters  that have been modified to north American oil field standard. Big All said he knows where there are more it's too far from me to take advantage of but u guys in the US can.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on August 08, 2018, 06:37:43 PM
Just to let u know Big all's is in Illinois 618 963 2619
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: LowGear on August 08, 2018, 08:58:47 PM
Wow Mr. X,

You're doing some very neat stuff.  I'm in the "very envious" line waiting for a tour of your system.  Thanks for sharing your photos.

Casey
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: BruceM on August 08, 2018, 09:46:32 PM
I think Mr. X's Arrow project is great, too.  I was very interested in these engines (to run on Propane) when I was first researching my off grid move.  Alas, I couldn't find any old ones and the new one's were way beyond my budget.

Thanks for taking time to share it with us, Mr. X.



Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: glort on August 09, 2018, 04:46:57 AM

Having Nat gas at those sort of prices would be a boon for your needs.

Gas here used to be cheap too, now it's so exy that in many places LPG is cheaper.  People that had gas hot water as was a much cheaper way to go over electricity, are now pulling them out and putting electric. No one thinks electric is cheaper but gas has got over the top here in most places.
Round here they are building a lot of new estates and not even putting it in despite us supposing haveing  gas reserves for Centurys.
Seems to be getting harder to find now after we sold so much to China for 1 C/ litre.

Maybe a small battery bank with panels would be helpful in further reducing costs for your daytime use?

Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: 38ac on August 09, 2018, 02:03:37 PM
I have driven right by Big Als but didnt stop to see what all they are into.  That used to be a big oil producing area 40-50 years ago.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: BruceM on August 09, 2018, 03:12:34 PM
Meaningful winter PV collection in N. Alberta would be difficult.  Summers would be the opposite. 
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on August 09, 2018, 06:12:52 PM
You are right solar power is difficult. An example of this ,I used to raise pigs and had an electric fencer  hooked up and charged by solar. This was in December and after 3 weeks of no sun to speak of the battery died and now froze. So after that lesson I ran a long extension cord from my house battery to the pigs, it worked from then on. But on the other hand come Feb when the day light hr get longer and there is still snow on the ground, it's like having 2  suns one from the heavens and one from the reflection off the snow. And of course solar pannel love cold weather. Another limitation is the lack of size of my pannel. I think I have 250 w of mostly used pannel, bought back when the price was still 12 bucks watt. Oh well if only my world was perfect.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: BruceM on August 09, 2018, 07:46:35 PM
At last, someone living off grid with less PV than I.  I had only 875 watts for about 10 years.  Just added 1500 for $0.64 watt (plus freight).  The new seasonal tilt ground rack ran me about $200 in steel. 

I assume your refrigerator, like mine, must be propane.



Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: glort on August 10, 2018, 02:09:42 AM

Amazing.  For the used panels I buy, I set the price for comparison of different panels at $100 Kw or 1 C watt.  Often I pay less than that.
Sure puts a different ROI on these things.
I was thinking that @ $9 day even for 6 Months would have a reasonable return but then I saw  that most of the use is heating which would not be needed in summer.  Add longer day etc, costs for gas for summer might be $3 per day depending on cooling used.
The change over with bright skies and Snow would be perfect though.  Panels would be Cranking. How many days this happens would be the thing. 
Be interesting to crunch the location on the PV watts website and see what they come up with for those winter months.

That's the big drawback with solar as I mentioned the other day. When you need it the most you get less and when you need it the least it's in it's greatest abundance.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: BruceM on August 10, 2018, 02:55:47 AM
There's the engineer in Ohio who makes hydrogen and stores it in a Propane tank farm for winter.
No one else that I know of.



Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: mikenash on August 10, 2018, 08:56:25 AM

Amazing.  For the used panels I buy, I set the price for comparison of different panels at $100 Kw or 1 C watt.  Often I pay less than that.
Sure puts a different ROI on these things.
I was thinking that @ $9 day even for 6 Months would have a reasonable return but then I saw  that most of the use is heating which would not be needed in summer.  Add longer day etc, costs for gas for summer might be $3 per day depending on cooling used.
The change over with bright skies and Snow would be perfect though.  Panels would be Cranking. How many days this happens would be the thing. 
Be interesting to crunch the location on the PV watts website and see what they come up with for those winter months.

I'd be surprised if $100 per kW wasn't $0.10 per watt?

That's the big drawback with solar as I mentioned the other day. When you need it the most you get less and when you need it the least it's in it's greatest abundance.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: EdDee on August 10, 2018, 12:41:16 PM
Interesting pricing comparison...

355W panel costs new here ZAR5/watt - that equates to AUS.50/W - A quick search on a marketing site lists the average pricing at around ZAR10/W or AUS1/W.....

Cheers
Ed

PS - 4.2Kw of array up and running  :) , overcast miserable weather  >:( ....result: 100W usable from panels......   :'(
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on August 21, 2018, 01:50:09 PM
Ok I got the gas permit and I'm now done plumbing the lines now I guess it's time to put my k6 back together. I'm waiting on rings and head gaskets from Big All s . A lot more pricey then from An ad but he quit talking to me after that last shipment of mostly the wrong parts. If any one needs some petteroid parts I'll sell u what I have. 5 head gaskets 87 mm bore, mine needs 102 mm and I think by the shape these are air cooled. I have some governor stuff including weights and springs.
       Now the reason I'm writing is I m clueless as to what do u set the tappets . Another is being I have no injector to set spill timing how would u set the timing. I was going to convert this back to diesel but now will keep as ng, so when I took apart I didn't pay much attention to some details. I haven't a clue what engine this is I'm leaning to a DM 10 and am guessing the reason they call it a k 6 may be it's a Koal or Kirloskar and probably at the recommended 800 rpm may develop 6 hp, I'll be running around 900 rpm so I now have a k7
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on August 21, 2018, 05:15:52 PM
Forgot to mention I found a number stamp on the block DM then 10 stamped sideways and a few other numbers I can't recall.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on October 12, 2018, 11:42:00 PM
It's alive!  And running on ng or propane. And purrrs like a beast. Not sure where I saw it but this is 900 something cc . Lots more to do now gotta  mount generator. And sin of all sins I'm going to pull the roid out of her closet and replace with Mr Petter ( k6 ) .
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: BruceM on October 13, 2018, 12:37:22 AM
Bravo!  Pictures and/or video, please!
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: glort on October 13, 2018, 01:06:32 AM

Yes, definitely like to see a good long vid of one of those running close up.

If you put a vid on YT, when you get the guaranteed inane fuel consumption questions, give them an answer in KJ, cal or Cu ft.  just to put the stupidity of the question in context.    :laugh:
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on November 01, 2018, 03:17:07 PM
I'm having a change of plans yes I love this k6 petteroid, haven't got running proper yet but am now thinking, and working toward using a k301 Kohler. Thinking of running ng at around 1800 rpm. It is a 12 hp engine and hoping at that rpm will develop enough power for my needs. I'm using a Honda at 3600 rpm and it drives me nuts after a while when I work in my shop. I also picked up for cheep a 10 hp and a 14 hp Kohler. These are old and obsolete engines but we're very popular so there are many parts. That is my concern with the petter I paid $100 and after some minor parts I'm into it for several hundred. A kohler though heavy about 170 lb it dosent  require a crane to lift, so sorry guys don't mean to be a turncoat but buying an American product can't be bad, after all the saying isn't make India great again
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on November 04, 2018, 03:08:12 PM
I'll just keep rambling on as not many are interested in Kohler engines. But this relates to the k6 because I now found the sweet spot to convert the Kohler carb. I took off the float bowl and with 3/8 drilled out the high speed idle jet where it goes from the float bowl to the venture In the carb. I then plugged the high idel adjustment screw. I had to plug another hole from the float bowel. The 3/8 copper tube I shoved in to the newly expanded jet and intruding in to the carb 1/2  inch. It runs good I have full throttle and govenor control and now I can open the choke compleatly. Before with the 1/4 inch line I couldn't open the choke. I had similar issues with the petter, so now I have new insights into my next experiment with the petter. But now to get the Kohler a frame and mount a generator so I can park the Honda.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: glort on November 04, 2018, 10:55:28 PM

I'm not understanding how the carb regulates the gas mixture.  What type of carb is it? Is there a needle that goes into the main jet Like an SU  to regulate the gas feed or will this be set up for a constant speed Load?

I take it the gas is pressurised so unlike liquid Fuel it will be admitted at the same rate regardless of the airflow.  Must be something different about this setup i'm not thinking of.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: dieselspanner on November 05, 2018, 07:14:08 AM
Mr X
Don't worry about rambling, almost everything that gets posted on here eventually turns up a nugget of interest. If, like your 'ramblings' on Kohlers and gas conversion, they are engineering based to start with, so much the better!

Keep it coming
Stef
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on November 07, 2018, 05:43:42 PM

I'm not understanding how the carb regulates the gas mixture.  What type of carb is it? Is there a needle that goes into the main jet Like an SU  to regulate the gas feed or will this be set up for a constant speed Load?

I take it the gas is pressurised so unlike liquid Fuel it will be admitted at the same rate regardless of the airflow.  Must be something different about this setup i'm not thinking of.

I bought one of those Chinese trifuel carbs for Honda they were so inexpensive I bought 2 at 26 bucks each. They have a demand regulator so the more vacuum created by the motor the more the fuel valve opens. I stole the demand reg from the spare carb and mounted on the Kohler. It seems to run it fine. I since bought a demand reg from USA it cost lots more, about 125.00 Canadian. I built a frame and today should be making power. The carb I'm using is just the stock gas carb from Kohler but I drilled it out so it's now only lpg or ng.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on November 09, 2018, 01:49:42 PM
It purrrs, I got this beast hooked up and producing power, running at 1800 rpm. I still have to fine tune the gov throttle but it has no problem running what I'm guessing is a 3500 watt gen. It dose this without making the noise the Honda makes. The Kohler wants to vibrate around the room so u should see the concoction of crap I employed to get it to stay put. More fine tuning to come. As always when u diy stuff. The funny thing about this motor is I've had it parked in a shed for at least 10 years, and because I was blinded by the slow speed bug I just didn't see it as a possibility as a prime mover. Sure I  have the listeroid and have burned thousands of gallons of wvo but I'm so tired of messing with it.  Every 1500 hr tear down and decarbon, usually a 2 day job. My old bones don't  enjoy it much anymore. I just hope ng stays close to $1.00 gigajoul or I may be back to running the roid.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: Mr X on March 05, 2019, 04:40:13 PM
Almost 4 months running the Kohler, runs really nice and I can't find any thing major wrong when it's time for my weekly oil change and service. It's an ongoing chore to clean the plug and tighten or fix anything that has loosened up but it's a real gentleman's motor, no need to get greasy up to ur elbows. That said I did have generator problems. I seized and replaced a berring, and changed new brushes. 135.00 . I'm using a new more expensive oil petrocan Centron, it's a ng engine oil and I'm hoping it will reduce the ash I see on top of piston and plug. I 'll up my hours for oil change to 100 hr, but have figured how to run an oil furnace pump to pump and filter my oil. Will rig up this spring, other then that it a great motor for producing power. So who wants to buy a Arrow k6.
Title: Re: Arrow k6
Post by: LowGear on March 06, 2019, 06:56:55 PM
I just caught sight of your engine.  Looks like a real hit at $100.  I'd email carlB to help with an informed decision about WVO and NG.

Good luck.