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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: glort on March 14, 2018, 12:03:44 PM

Title: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 14, 2018, 12:03:44 PM

Long rant, make coffee and come back or skip to next post now....

If you are remotely interested in Vehicles, or even if you are not, you can't look at any form of media now without having something glossy and hyped rammed down your throat about electric Vehicles. The most sedate it gets is the never ending " Banning of IC cars by 20xx in whichever" place or that auto makers are working feverishly to bring out 100 new models in teh next 5 years..... Which coincidently, is an actual scale widely flung around.

We know there is now the technology for cars to cover decent distances, to recharge in a -reasonable- time frame and that many of the past objections are gone.  Today our " green" party, the biggest pack of Idiot ratbags Imaginable ( And yes, I must own up to voting for them once about 25 years ago) called for a ban of all IC car sales in OZ by 2030.

And therein lies the root of my face palm and urge to go beat my head on a brick wall.

These same whining morons are already responsible for STATE wide blackouts due to the blowing up of coal fired power stations.
To stop a grid meltdown, the gubbermint went and put in a stack of diesel generators that consume 40,000L of Diesel an HOUR! That is one standard semi tanker load.  per HOUR!
Yeah! that's doing wonders for the environment right?  ::)

The whole EV thing is a complex one but my biggest concern and where I see the real handbrake is feeding all these clean wonderful cars with power.
 I think it's far from the simple thing of generation growing to meet the demand that many Ev proponents make out.  I also think it's a lot more than a localised consideration. There are few countries with abundant power supply and fewer still that have or will go near being renewable.  Most of the western world does not have a lot of power to spare and even in this day and age, it only takes one hot day to have rolling blackouts because the grid can't keep up. Here it's getting much worse thanks to all the save the planet types and their " Renewable" generation that is unstable, un predictable and very undependable.

The demand on the grid worldwide is growing all the time.  The green washed thing of coal is evil and must be stopped now reduces capacity and stability.  On one hand you have the green washed trying to reduce generation at the same time promoting the increase of consumption. Nothing wrong with that hypocricy, much! It takes a LOT of renewable power to equal one fossil fired station and the renewable is far from stable and dependable.

In a decade, the demand on grids around the world will have grown through all the things that are reliant on it now. Population, business, industry, quality of life improvements Like AC, large TV's and so it goes.
I don't know where to find the info of demand Vs generation relationships but it sure would be interesting to see the projections.

I don't know about other parts of the world but from what I'm reading, The take up of PV is no where near like it is here in oz hich is understandable given the weather in a lot of the northern Hemisphere.  I think rather than have the big blattery, the money should have been spent on putting more localised power where it is needed in the form of solar. Unfortunately the green obsessed and Crazy SA gubbermint is so hell bent on being able to make stupid claims, they do it at the cost of sound practices and stability of power for the state.

I really don't think most of the greenwashed / EV proponents have any idea of the amount of energy contained in liquid fuels, the size of any type of battery to store the same amount of energy as in an average fuel tank and I don't think they understand what that energy equates to in electrical generation terms.  Multiply that out be every car however many there are in your street let alone suburb and city, and the numbers become overwhelming.
Compare that to the amount of power a city generates now and one will get some perspective how mammoth a task this switch to electric really is.

Here's a real quick one....
My 4WD has a 100L tank. Yes, large by sedan standards but around here, a significant part of the local transport.
Diesel is about 10.7Kw of energy per litre. Let's call it 10 for ease of my poor mathematics.
100L in my tank x10 Kwh = 1000 KWh.

My 6.5 Kw solar system is averaging with weather about 25KwH a day atm being summer here. 5kwh is the standard for new systems being installed now but a lot larger than most older ones being 1.5-2 Kw.
If I put my 25kwh a day JUST into my vehicle, Thats going to take 40 days on average to give me ONE tankfull of Diesel. And now of course I must dra everything from the grid for household needs.
Lets halve that as a closer to average sort of tank capacity.  500KWH, 20 days at 25KWH per day.

Look at it another way.  Average home here for a family of 4 my power bill says is about 30 KWH a day.  50L of fuel in the average family car, and few families have just one here, 500Kwh / 30 Kwh = 16 days average power use in that vehicle.
Most people I know fill up at least once a week. 2000Kwh month for the car,  30Kwh x 30 days = 900 KWH for the home.
Anyone getting the picture of the energy load we are talking about here?

That average family car electric needs is worth more than 2 average homes electric consumption per month. If they have ONE car. I l oked up the numbers,  2.28 for Oz with 35% of households owning 3 or more.
US, looks exactly the same, canada a bit less, 1,8 cars per family.

So in reality, the average home in these countries would have 4-5 times the demand on the grid for power for their ev's than they are using in their homes now.
At best, the number of houses in your street as far as power consumption goes just tripled. More likely, it just multiplied by a factor of at least 5.
In every street in every suburb in every city and town right across the country......

How many homes do you think will be able to have enough panels to charge their vehicles up in even a week even if they covered the whole block and used the panels as a roof?
When you break it down like this, you start to see the incredible change in the grid infrastructure that is going to be needed to replace  IC vehicles.
Sure it won't happen over night, it can't! If the the take up was too quick ( and ev sales are LESS than 1% overall atm) they would hit a tipping point where all the cars were taking the power and there was non left to run the factories trying to make the things!

How long before you think the grid where you live will be able to handle that 500% ++ increase in demand, and what do you think the price of power might be to pay for the infrastructure to supply it?
More over, is there even space to put the infrastructure in place?  Pretty sure no city is going to have the capacity to distribute 500% mo0re power on existing cabling and the question would then be, is there the space in the ground with everything else to put cables and distribution equipment in place 2with 5x the capacity of what is there now?

How big are the cables going to be on the power poles and how heavy? How expensive will they be with up rated substations, transformers and so it goes.

Of course then there is the thing that comes to mind for me with a personal ( repeated) experience.
My Father lives almost 400 KM away from me. The journey is basicaly up a highway for 2 hours, a 7 km crawl through the bypass of the next major city and then another 1hr, 20 min hop up the other side of the highway to his place. That highway goes another 600KM to the next major city.

In the middle of that 7 Km stretch there is a 2 petrol stations. The one opposite the McDonalds is the busiest and the Maccas can not be got near when its holiday time as it's the only thing on the highway till you get further up to when my father lives.
That service station is VERY busy with people filling up as it's the last fuel for about 2 hours. If you have come from where dad is which is the next major town and you are towing a boat or caravan, You are going to need a long range tank to make it with out a top up.

 EV's on average take an hour to recharge IF they are on a rapid charger. Many take much longer.   How long does it take one to fill their tank with petro fuel? 5, 10 Min?  I'd reckon there are about 20 pumps at that servo opposite Maccas.  that would mean that when the line is out onto the road, each pump should service a minimum of 6 cars per hour. 20 pumps, 120 cars per hour.

Now, if each car even takes 30 min to recharge bearing in mind they would have nearly all just driven 150KM and have another 200 to go to the next place that would have a charging station, those 20 outlets are only going to service 40 Vehicles. in other words, you are going to have to put in at least 3 times the charging stations as fuel pumps. And unless they are all super charger type setups, the far more likley charging time is 2-3 Hours.

Geez, won't that be fun turning your 4 hour trip into a 7 hour one and trying to amuse the kids at maccas for 3 hours. I can see a real possibility of the accident rate going up on that section of road due to fatigue and distraction by the extended journey time.
But wait, there's More....!

As its a big selling point to have " destination Charging" with tesla at least, put a charging station in every parking bay at maccas so people can go in , grab a bite and a coffee and have a break while their car charges up. Tesla luckily it's only an hour.
 I looked up that a tesla can suck down 120Kw at a charging station.  On 240V that's nearly 500A. Yes, the voltage is actually a bit higher but that's irrelevant.  it's the watts that count. A normal house connection here is 80A and it would be extremely rare to find a single place sucking down that much power.
Let say there are 20 Charging stations in the carpark at maccas, that's 2.4 Mw of power just at that site . Across the road in the servo, there is at least another 20 and another 2.4Mw. How many other sites will that segment of the grid be feeding and further back, how many will be in the area supplied buy the local sub and power stations? Those 2 sites are across the road from one another so how big are the cables going to have to be just to feed 2 places?
That sort of power wouldn't be used by factories of that size so to have 2 small sites  pulling that down.... Then of course there are the other food joints about 500M up the road that also fill up at holiday time and would no doubt also have charging in order to get business in the door be the power paid for or not.  Can't see how they could afford to give it away on that scale unless the price of a Burger in the restaurant became 25 bucks.

Another thing that's not mentioned with charging time with teslas is they quote an hour. That's true if the thing isn't completely flat which we'll assume it is not and people leave a small reserve as one normally would with a petrol car.  You go to the supercharger and plug in next to the guy that just pulled up. The charger is current limited and you are only going to get 30Kw being the second car to plug in rather than the 120Kw which is the max charge rate. Because the guy beside was before you but still needs to do a full charge more or less, your recharge could take 2 hours not 1.  And that is if it's getting full power in the first place and the site isn't limited on it's max current draw because of all the other stations and the wiring at the power pole.

To me the whole EV thing is one big distraction and bundle of BS.

Given the western world still pulls the majority of it's power from fossil fuel going electric is really only moving the emissions from one place of generation to another anyhow.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: broncodriver99 on March 14, 2018, 01:32:44 PM
Given the western world still pulls the majority of it's power from fossil fuel going electric is really only moving the emissions from one place of generation to another anyhow.

Add to that the efficiency of the grid with generation and transmission losses and electric cars end up being ~about as efficient as a IC fueled vehicle.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: AdeV on March 14, 2018, 10:35:42 PM
That is a hell of a rant! Unfortunately time pressures mean I won't have chance to read it before the weekend, but if I may ask a question?

Why is the interior of Australia (which, as I recall, is pretty bloody big - even by Australian standards - and mostly unpopulated) not being carpeted with PV panels? Surely for a country that gets more sunshine than it can possibly need, solar PV is the obvious answer? Or, even, molten salt thermal solar, which has the advantage that if enough heat energy can be banked during the day, can continue to generate power even in the hours of darkness, addressing the biggest problem solar PV suffers from?

Glort - apologies if you already addressed this... I WILL read all of your post, but not right now...
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 14, 2018, 10:56:52 PM
I wonder how much fossil fuel is used to mine the lithium for these batteries. The ore has to be extracted, refined. shipped to China for manufacture into cells. It`s then shipped to tesla for assembly, from there the finished product is distributed all around the world. The logistics must be horrendous.

What is going to happen to all the outback farmers that are not grid connected. how are they supposed to charge their vehicles? Does anyone make an electric tractor or combined harvester, how long would one of those take to charge?

What are the government going to do without the tax revenues from oil? I guess they`ll have to tax electricity, that should make the greens popular.

I have to conclude that once again there is no joined up thinking by the government, when are they going to start listening to people who know what they are doing, rather than following the dogma of the politically correct incompetent?

Mad as a cut snake,
Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 14, 2018, 11:27:58 PM
Hi Ade,

I have been writing statements for a couple of days so I was on a roll with this one and I could take my mind of things with so it got away on me.

Simple answer to your Question, I don't know why there isn't more solar here specifically but I do know from what I have researched, Desserts are not good places for solar farms.

First you have the heat killing panel efficiency. Also upsets transformers and other equipment further down the line and you have wide temp fluctuations. Next you have problems with cleaning and the dust and sand that gets on them again reducing output.   Another problem is vegetation.  Minute you shade something in the dessert the moisture content below it goes up and plants start growing, often right up and over the panel in this case.  That has been a problem in other places where they put solar farms is desserts. There is then the problem/ expense/ inefficacy of transmission of  the power back to the citys and the main centres are thousands of KM away from the red centre and dessert areas.
 Heiliostats suffer much the same problems for those setups.
No doubt rather than learn from this, we'll eventually get round to making the same mistake.

That is not to say we Don't have solar farms, they just finished a 20Mw one in WA that sits beside and 80Mw wind farm and the are starting on a 112Mw solar farm In Mildura. That is known as the Riverina area and is a cool, moist place that is a key farming area along the banks of the Murray river.  Long way from any dessert down there.
There are a heap of other solar farms slated atm as part of a nationwide initiative to get out green power levels up. We shouldn't be lacking for too much power during the day eventually but the price  remains to be seen despite the predictable Cheap power promise they tout to get these things approved which soon disappears once they are built.... usually as assets for private companies with gubbermint money.  Big battery anyone?

The bottom line is, renewbles here are all a great crock.  Australia is built on Coal and even our head green washed scientist said some time back, If Australia's Co2 emissions were nothing,  " It would have absolutely Zero impact on the global environment" .  There are new clean Coal technologies that are in place and working OS and would be logical to build here.
Still, looking politically correct is apparently worth spending billions on even if it really makes no difference and is a total farce that creates a heap of problems in doing it....... And because of it's limitations you have to put in diesel generators that burn a TANKER load of diesel an HOUR.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 14, 2018, 11:39:16 PM
Given the western world still pulls the majority of it's power from fossil fuel going electric is really only moving the emissions from one place of generation to another anyhow.

Add to that the efficiency of the grid with generation and transmission losses and electric cars end up being ~about as efficient as a IC fueled vehicle.

A good point.
I have no real idea what transmission losses are. I have seen them quoted as what I think would be unlikly low to what I would think was terribly high but not beyond possibility.
I get the feeling the losses are significant however.

This is yet another problem I have with the whole green/ environmental thing and another example of how it comes back to money first and foremost.
For the greater population of Oz, that on the eastern seaboard, You are only allowed to have a max 5KW inverter installed.  The BS excuse is they don't want the grid overloaded with power being backfed.  I won't even go into the laughable holes in that insulting excuse  but clearly the reason is they don't want to lose revenue.  That's why here the power you make you get .6 C KWH for and the power you buy is .30 cents and way on up.

If one were actually interested in the environment and not just making money using it as an excuse, it's pretty obvious with anything, the closer you cn produce it to where you use it, the better and more efficient it is.  Producing it on your roof and using it in the home is as good as it gets but If you are producing too much for your needs and some of it goes next door or to the shopping centre a few KM away, it sure is going to still be magnitudes more efficient than it coming from 500KM away or thousands as the case frequently is.

If they were genuine about being green rather than making profit, they would be encouraging everyone to put in all the solar they could so the power that had to be brought in from power stations  and things like solar farms could be reduced as would be the losses.

But once again, the environment is just a cash cow excuse for big biz and gubbermints to treat the people like idiots and squeeze every buck they can out of them for their own good, not the planets. 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 14, 2018, 11:43:16 PM
A tanker full of diesel an hour? How big is the injector pump on one of these things?
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 14, 2018, 11:51:20 PM

What are the government going to do without the tax revenues from oil? I guess they`ll have to tax electricity, that should make the greens popular.

Mad as a cut snake,
Bob

As Usual Grumpy, mad Bob, you make excellent points.
I hadn't even thought of the revenue from fuel excise aspect.  I would think thats a pretty easy one though.

In some places, NZ being one, they pay for the mileage the car drives, in advance. You buy say 5000KM of road tax credits and top up as you need.
Trucks have odometers fitted in the wheel hubs and first thing that happens when you get pulled over after someone says  " Sweet as Bro!"  is they check this to make sure the tax is paid up and you are in credit. If it's not, the fines are huge and more than sufficient to be a real deterrent.
These days they could probably run something off the car computer through the OBDII port pretty easily or you would give the mileage now and pay to some future distance.

I don't know about now but I know the Lithium for early Hybrids was a nightmare. It crss crossed the world being refined and being built into battery backs before crossing the world again to be put into the vehicles some of which were sent back to where the process began. The amount of toxis wastes from the process was also horrendous.  It may be better now, it may not but there is no way in hell the industry will tell you it's nothing but sunshine, unicorns and rainbows and you could feed your newborn on the waste from the process...... no matter how deadly it really may be.

It seems lithium is a limited material so the stupidity of basing a world wide and growing technology on that can only come back to the same old pathetic thing..... Greed.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 14, 2018, 11:59:28 PM
Perhaps someone could explain to me why the greens in the government allowed the closure of the Nymboida hydro electric power station. The water that used to feed it was redirected to Coffs Harbour so they can water their bloody gardens. The international slalom course at the canoe centre relied on the hydro outflow as did all the farmers along the creek.
Nice work by the greedy and incompetent.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 15, 2018, 12:10:10 AM
A tanker full of diesel an hour? How big is the injector pump on one of these things?

Not just one, there is a whole bunch of the things!
they are about semi trailer size themselves and installed as a bank all working together.

Went to find and article on it and looks like I got it wrong!  :-[  I can't link as it's behind a paywall but heres the headline:

Weatherill's 80,000 litres of diesel an hour solution to SA energy crisis

So I was wrong, it's twice as bad as I said.
That's 2 tanker trucks per hour.  The mind just boggles.

For our OS friends, Wetheriil is the green obsessed moronic zealot state premier that has been responsible for that state paying one of the highest power prices in the world while also at the same time one of the most unreliable with 2 STATE wide blackouts to date. There are  rolling blackouts around the state every day because there simply is not enough (renewable) power to go round.  He loves to boast that the state ran 100% on renewable power today.
Well the 10% of homes and businesses that HAD power might of, the rest were SOL and sitting on their arses because they couldn't work or do anything else. That's why business and industry is leaving the place like a sinking ship. When you can't be sure the lights are going to come on when you get it of a morning, you tend to look for other places that are a bit more !st world like to run your operation's from with all the modern luxuries..... Like electricity for instance!  ;D

He is also one of the idiots calling for all cars to be electric by 2030. When they are buring diesel at that rate to keep the lights on in the place, you really have to wonder how moronic and hypocritical they have to be to talk about multiplying the electric load by a minimum of 500% in just 10 years time.
Maybe the green washed Pollies like him could start taking the save the planet lead and ride bikes to Parliament.... In the 45o c  Adelaide Summers, pouring rain, Freezing Canberra cold.....  yeah, you can see them putting their actions where their mouth is can't you?   ::)

I think this guy is a great contender for stars with outstanding achievements in your " Idiots in charge " thread Bob.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 15, 2018, 12:12:49 AM
Perhaps someone could explain to me why the greens in the government allowed the closure of the Nymboida hydro electric power station. The water that used to feed it was redirected to Coffs Harbour so they can water their bloody gardens. The international slalom course at the canoe centre relied on the hydro outflow as did all the farmers along the creek.
Nice work by the greedy and incompetent.

I don't know anything about that Bob but I think you answered your own question.
" by the greedy and incompetent.".

Answers most questions of this type actually!
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 15, 2018, 04:30:06 AM
Tell me if I`ve understood this properly. The a South Australian government can`t keep the lights on despite burning 80,000ltrs of diesel an hour and they want us to trade in our IC engine vehicles and use electric ones instead.
The idiot in charge of this doesn`t deserve an award he needs a lobotomy.

Is there some sort of advanced stupidity course that politicians have to take before they can stand for office? I bet this guy aced it, a masters degree in BS and advanced incompetence.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 15, 2018, 04:59:52 AM

One of the major things wrong with the whole green, save the planet thing, apart from the fact it's a money making scam,  is that the deciples of the religion want to push it at each and every opportunity with NO thought or regard for the consequences.

So much of this green  rush of blood to the head actualy results in more energy being used, more resources being squandered, more emissions and more waste being generated that the method they are all hysterical busting a gut to get rid of.

They want change for changes sake rather than taking the basic and fundamental question of merely asking, " What's going to give the best result?"
Surprised you green washed zealots, sometimes, frequently in fact, doing things the way they are done right no is the best you are going to get.  No, not perfect, not " green" BUT, result in the best outcome for the cause you are trying to push.

Real easy everyday example, Ethanol fuel.
IF the very fact that the whole process of growing the crops and transporting the product to market relies HEAVILY on Diesel fuel for the fertiliser, fuel, lubrication for the machinery isn't enough to make you question the whole thing, the fact it at BEST merely substitutes the fuel that was used in it's production should be enough to wake anyone with a brain and without a blind preoccupation up to realise.

Some sources say that the fuel used in production is the same as the fuel yeilded. other sources say it's less and thats what I believe. Strongly. |
Simple energy conversion. Every time you change state, there is a loss.
But lets play devil advocate and say it's 1:1.  This now means the fuel amount may be the same but the EMISSIONS are DOUBLE.

Let say you started with 1000L of oil. You put that into fertiliser, fuel for machinery for production, transport etc. We won't even get into the non liquid fuel energy consumption.
You produced 1000L of fuel which you now sell and that powers Vehicles. You basicaly burnt Fuel TWICE producing more C02 and a lot of other things as well.  Had you taken that 1000L of oil you started with and put it to powering vehicles in the first place, it would have only been burnt once.

I'm thick as 2 planks but even I worked this out all on my own and I am amazed I have never seen the point made elsewhere but it pretty logical and obvious to me.  Every time you burn something you create emissions. Using  oil to create a product that is supposedly cleaner than oil which consumes it at the same rate but doubles the emissions in the name of saving the environment a beyond comprehension in it's bone headed stupidity!

Even if as some want to claim, the net yeild is greater, lets say 50%. You still created 50% More emissions than if you just put the fossil fuel straight in the tanks of the vehicles that consume it for transportation and other uses.  The only way to make a benifit would be to produce 2001L of fuel from the 1000 you started off with and NO ONE , even the green fruitcakes has ever come near that claim.

And as I touched on, this is only liquid fuels, they Rarely ever acknowledge the electric power used in making " Renewable" Fuel.

If you want to make the emissions from vehicles / ic engines as low as possible, just stick to burning fossil fuels as we do now because the fact is, at this time it's the best soloution for the job .

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 15, 2018, 05:33:57 AM
The problem is that whatever fuel you are burning there is only a finite amount available once you have burned it it`s gone for good. We are burning it at an ever accelerating pace. You don`t need to be a rocket scientist to work out that at some time, probably in our lifetime, there won`t be any left. can you imagine what that would do to the global economy? Don`t forget that fuel is only a very small percentage of the crude oil we use every day. Lubricants, paints, solvents, plastics and fertilisers are all oil based. With out that oil the world will quite literally grind to a halt.

As you point out all attempts to grow a crop for fuel have been an extravagant waste. I read one report that claimed the entire land mass of the United States would need to be turned over to ethanol production to service the demand for motor vehicle fuel. What are the people going to eat?

I believe that there is some useful research being done into using solar energy to convert CO2 back into hydrocarbons that can then be burned. The process is very energy consuming but doable. Perhaps a new purpose for all your solar panels. I`ll see if I can find the link and post it.
Bob

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 15, 2018, 05:52:57 AM
I went out furniture shopping with the Mrs earlier ( there's a great way to burn $12K in an hour!)  and in an irony of the world trying to tell me something, there was a Tesla Model 3 parked Right beside us.

Not too many of them around here, might see one on the road every few weeks but I have never been up close to one before. This was the P100D and I was surprised what a big thing it was.  The rear gullwing door looked impressive but worrying at the same time.
Don't think the woman that came back to it was all that impressed with me looking at it as there was s distinct tone of sarcasm in her voice when she " Asked " Do You like it?"  I gave a diplomatic answer that of knew of the things but had never seen one up close before.
The rug rat with her was screaming and she seemed the snobby, over botoxed type so I got in my planet destroying car and went to blow some more cash on light fittings..... which I got out of on the promise I'll go down the produce store, buy a galvanised bucket and some fitting and turn that into the lampshade she loved..... and save about 300 bucks in the process!

I don't know if I would like a tesla or not. I sure wouldn't mind something with the acceleration of one of those things  but to be honest, one would have to own one for a while or at least spend some time with it.  I could charge the thing from my panels for -my- use which isn't a lot and it would be home most of the day. Normally for the Mrs to take it to work, would mean I'd be paying for power when she got home.
As for the price of the things, I could actually afford one but I'd not be that stupid to blow a big chunk of my savings on any car. If someone wanted to give me one, yep, for sure be in that!  I might bag the company and the potential problems with changing the fleet from IC to electric but I don't have any experience with the vehicles themselves.


There is another bit of BS I have discovered about electric vehicles..... they are NOT necessarily cheaper to fuel than an IC car at all.
I took Tesla as the example because I can't think of any other electric cars here and found they skew the fuel cost by talking about the cost of a tank full of fuel, not on a per mile/ Km basis.

Yes, your tesla will cost less to " refuel" than a similar IC vehicle but the devil in the details is the Mileage you can travel for that cost.
If you look at say the price of driving 1000 KM/ miles in a tesla as against that of even a large vehicle here, the tesla is MORE expensive that the petrol and especial Diesel vehicle.

I ran the numbers for here in oz and the US and they worked out the same, Tesla is more expensive to run rather than cheaper for the same distance.

And tesla spin doctor that too.
Supercharging  at the tesla outlets is no longer free.  Tesla However give 400KWh of power with every new car sold.
They have charts on their site that show the tesla is cheaper to run than an IC car but in the micro print, it  tells you the comparisons were made taking the free 400Kwh into account.

Spose I should start selling 3 ton Pickups for Half a million bux and throw in the first 100K miles of free fuel and then advertise they cost nothing in fuel to run and they have the best fuel economy of any vehicle in the world.  :laugh:
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 15, 2018, 06:06:39 AM
Here is that research link https://e360.yale.edu/features/using_co2_to_make_fuel_a_long_shot_for_green_energy

I also went out to spend some money today. Sadly my debit card wouldn`t work. Went to the bank and complained. Turns out some f**kwit has been trying to hack my bank account details. The bank decided the safest thing to do was to disable my cards without informing me, they did this at 07:00 hrs on Sunday morning. I will now have to wait a week for replacements.
Very glad I wasn`t on holiday in Bali when this happened. Sh1t creek no paddle and no f`ing canoe.

Grumpy Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 15, 2018, 12:22:55 PM

I think 2 things come out of that article:

1. Making an oil replacement is not cheap,

2. The amount required is astronomical.

Seems there are plenty of ways to do it, none possible at the cost of oil and none that can be effectively scaled to the amount required even if it were cheap.

What I read about growing fuel was you'd have to cover a really big chunk of all the oceans to get enough.  There is always some article about a new hope or breakthrough but but 99.9% of the time they are just hype to attract investors or get gubbermint grants or the like for something they know doesn't really have a hope in hell. Keep people in a job till the grants or investment money runs out.  gets people's names in the media and gives Journos something to write about and keep the sheeple hopeful as well.

There is always a new engine around the corner that is more powerful, economical, lighter and cheaper to produce but there has only been one new engine come along in 50 + years and I think they have stopped making that now due to emissions, lack of economy and possibly Noise.
I'll believe in the next one when I see it sitting in the showroom.

They keep going on about Hydrogen as a fuel but I don't know why? There are more problems with that than enough in transport, capacity, Piping and other things, not to mention it's not a fuel in the first place, it's an energy storage medium that for practical purposes needs to be manufactured. Can't pull that out the air either.

I have a theroy/ belief with fossil fuels:
They will never be replaced and nothing will ever be " Found" to replace them until such time as there is not enough to go round and the oil companies are loosing money by not being able to charge anymore for what they have and profits falling.

No Business, especially a mega one, is going to walk away from it's existing infrastructure, spend untold billions on setting up another system UNLESS it can make more money than it did before. Anyone that thinks they will do it to save the planet or any other lofty idea is severly ignorant to the ways of capitalism and the fundamentals of global business operations.

When the oil does start to run out and the companies can no longer supply enough, there will be a great breakthrough discovery just in the nick of time.
I'll bet my arse it will be some basic thing they knew for the last 100 years but there will be some excuse of it being forgotten or technology wasn't viable or some other rubbish.

In other words, they could do it now but they just don't want to spend the money whichever they don't have to.


I had the same problem a few years ago with the CC and I was on Holiday.
Got to the airport and discovered  card wasn't working. Panicked call to the bank who confirmed it had been stopped due to suspicious activity. Turned out the suspicious activity was our pre holiday purchases.  Took them 24 hours to re-instate it but what a pain in the butt.  Had plenty of money in a savings account but the single brain celled woman at Auckland airport would not accept that and their wasn't a high enough limit on other cards for the deposit and the hire fee. She would not take 2 cards to split the money which we found out later when we returned the car, was perfectly fine. Luckily, friend had flown in and came and gave them his CC which robot girl was happy with.

If ever there was a Dumb Bit... cow I wanted to slap clean across the room, it was this one.  No matter how many times you explained things to her, she looked blankly and asked you for another card after we had told her at least 8 times we didn't have another credit card with enough on it. I had low limits purposefully set and had the no limit on the one they had stopped.  Aggghhh!

As it turned out, when we took the car back, the area manager for the chain was the one that served me. They couldn't find the paperwork which was no surprise and I did not hold back in ( politely but strongly) telling her what I thought of their employee.  I think the comment that I was glad she worked for them and not my business because my business couldn't survive and anchor like her pulling it down and destroying the good will and reputation I had worked hard for with my clients struck a chord by the look on the managers face. 

I told her this while the dunderhead was 3 ft away and she did not flinch, proving robots have no emotion.
We got on the shuttle bus and before it left, manager came on, apologised profusely again and said they had reversed the charge on friend's credit card and our hire was complimentary.  That was an unexpected twist!
Bit of a complication too as we had already fixed him up for the hire charge so he wouldn't be short on his holiday.

By the next morning, CC had  been restored, bank had called and emailed to let us know, reset password and the rest of the trip was far more stress free.  Not sure we used the thing then anyway.

We went to Cairns in November and as we were walking through the airport from the return flight, phone rang with the bank telling us CC had been stopped due to fraudulent activity overseas.
Last thing it was used for was to pay for the hire car  day before ( Bloody cars and holidays again!!)  and I was a bit sus on that at the time.
They had the CC obviously for the bond but after we dropped the car off, about 2 hours later guy rang and said he forgot to get the card to charge us. I said they already had the card on file but he reckoned he couldn't access it. Didn't think much and gave him the number but later thought it didn't feel right but probably just my paranoia.  Was definitely the guy at the rental place so didn't worry. May have been nothing to do with him though gut instinct tells me otherwise.

Anyway, same thing, wait for another card to arrive and carry on.
Stuffed up all my online shopping though. Had to put the new number into everything. Pain in the butt.

Got the 3rd degree off my father the other night.
Was complaining he had to go through all this drama a with a business licence online and couln't figure it out and would wait for me to come up and sort it for him.  While I'm talking to him I log onto his email and read the notice and tell him all he has to do is pay for it with a CC number. He wanted to know how I could see it. I said I set up your email remember and I kept the details for when you forget or bugger something up. He seemed a bit wary so I told him I don't bother looking at it much, you never get any discount coupons from the strip club so no use to me.

 He said OK, when you come up I'll get you to pay this for me.  We were talking a bit and I paid for the thing as we spoke and said your licence is all fixed up, I just paid for it and got the receipt number. He asked how much so he could reimburse me. I said I paid for it with your credit card so no problem.  Then he wanted to know how I had his CC number and I rattled off all the things he had asked me to buy or pay for him online before and he always had to go get the damn magnifying glass to read the numbers to me so I wrote that down and put it away too.

I then got told in stern tones " Don't you go buying stuff on it then".  FFS!
I said too late, they deliver the new Ferrari tomorrow I paid for on your card but I'll come up and give you a ride in it. One day.

Geez, no trust,  no gratitude and no taking you for a responsible adult rather than the 12 yo kid you were when you left home!
I'm sure he still thinks of me as a child!
Never a problem with trusting me when he gets sick and I have to take off up there and run the business for him at the drop of a hat.
Makes more damn money when I'm there as well!  >:(
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on March 15, 2018, 04:54:30 PM
My turn.

Electric cars are neat.

Yup.  That's it.

Cheers,
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 15, 2018, 10:38:44 PM
Thanks for reminding me that all my online services will need to have the CC number edited. What a pain in the ar*e that`s going to be. I  wonder how many passwords I`m going to have forgotten.
Strange thing is that the suspicious activity the bank flagged was someone PAYING me 43 dollars and some change! Doesn`t sound like the actions of a criminal mastermind.

I agree that electric cars are cool and probably an ideal way of reducing air pollution in built up areas. For those of us that live rurally and have to travel long distances they are completely impractical.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: AdeV on March 15, 2018, 10:45:07 PM
The problem is that whatever fuel you are burning there is only a finite amount available once you have burned it it`s gone for good.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. Coal - sure, definitely. Oil, however... well, the Japanese have proven that there are algae out there which eat CO2 & energy (ideally light, but heat will do) and shit out crude oil. I read, somewhere (can't remember where) that some formerly dry oil wells have, in fact, been found to have some oil in them again.

What is true, is at our present rate of extraction, there will come a day when effectively all of the earth's accessible (or, rather, known AND accessible) oil reserves will be consumed, and even if some are replenished by natural processes, it certainly isn't going to be fast enough. Plant-based alternatives are OK, but simply put we don't have enough space to grow the crops to produce the yields necessary to cover all oil consumption, even if that were possible (which, as glort points out, is highly unlikely at best). Well, maybe we could, but then there's no space left over to grow stuff to eat.

So... where do we go from here? Solar & wind could help reduce oil/gas consumption, but they'll never replace it completely. Nuclear would seem to be the most viable option for the short term - at least to cover the base load currently covered with coal/oil/gas. Unless someone finds a way to store the energy from solar/wind when it's not wanted & can be released back into the grid when it IS needed, then we'll need rapid reacting gas turbine power to keep or grids stable.

Personally, I think they should use surplus wind/solar to generate H2, which can either be pushed through hydrogen fuel cells, or even burnt in a generator (gas turbine or reciprocating, whatever works best); that at least allows solar/wind output to be levelised and made much more predictable (higher than predicted, store any excess; lower than predicted, burn into your store to supplement). H2 has the advantage of producing very little additional pollution when burnt (only waste heat).


It's all moot anyway. The plants are LOVING the extra CO2 that's in the air. So the odd polar bear gets it in the neck, it's all terribly sad, but lets face it - if Antarctica melts, there's a whole new landmass just waiting to be turned into a gigantic farm to feed the world (and the rising sea levels will have killed off anyone careless enough to live by the sea, so there'll be less mouths to feed as well! Perfect for a new low-oil economy...

... so I got in my planet destroying car and went to blow some more cash on light fittings.....

I hope you tweaked the "injector output" knob I'm sure you have under the dash, for that "extra black smoke" effect?  :laugh:

I drive a 4 litre supercharged Jaguar XJR about the place (20mpg *at best*). I'm just trying to feed the plants, that's all, and offset all of those damn Priuses!
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 15, 2018, 11:36:02 PM
You make a good point about solar and wind generation. The problem is that the sun doesn`t shine 24 hours a day so storage for use at night is essential. Battery storage works but is bulky and expensive and has only a short life expectancy. Pumped hydro is a possibility but the costs are astronomical. Nuclear has very nasty long term consequences which we are not technologically advanced enough to overcome. Experiments into the feasibility of fusion reactors are producing good results but a working prototype is probably fifteen years or more away.

Has anyone considered the idea of a world power grid that would transmit solar generated power from the sunny side of the planet to those on the dark side? Nice idea but probably too expensive and would require global cooperation.

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mike90045 on March 16, 2018, 02:02:10 AM
...
Has anyone considered the idea of a world power grid that would transmit solar generated power from the sunny side of the planet to those on the dark side? Nice idea but probably too expensive and would require global cooperation.    Bob


Giant orbital mirrors !
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 16, 2018, 03:18:50 AM
...



Giant orbital mirrors !
Great idea, until you realise that some stupid SOB would weaponize them and use them to fry countries which didn`t share the same point of view.

There has also been talk of solar shades being shot into orbit to reduce global warming. Great if you live near the equator and want to drop the summer temperature a bit. Totally rubbish idea if your an eskimo.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 16, 2018, 10:09:49 AM

Has anyone considered the idea of a world power grid that would transmit solar generated power from the sunny side of the planet to those on the dark side? Nice idea but probably too expensive and would require global cooperation.


Can you imagine the size of the cables going to feed an entire country not to mention the distribution network required to get it into the grid when it got there?

I know how thick the cables need to be just to feed my puny solar setup back to the house mains. Multiply that by a million or so...... Hooee!
You'd be lucky to load 10km worth onto a ship before the weight sank the thing!   

It's a mamoth problem and we might have to wait till the Aliens arrive to share their tech with us to solve the problem.
Of course being what mankind is, we'll probably shoot them down or blow them up before they have chance to say "G'day!"

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 16, 2018, 11:04:52 AM


It's all moot anyway. The plants are LOVING the extra CO2 that's in the air.

 but lets face it - if Antarctica melts, there's a whole new landmass just waiting to be turned into a gigantic farm to feed the world (and the rising sea levels will have killed off anyone careless enough to live by the sea,

I stirred up an environmental zealot on a greenwashed DIY site a little while ago with much the same sort of statements.

Said I didn't get what the green washed were so worried about Co2 for when they were always banging on about more trees. I pointed out they add Co2 in greenhouses to make plants grow faster and flourish. Plants breathe C02 and greenhouses are typically held at twice the normal atmospheric level so up to that point, the more co2 The better the tress will grow.

Didn't that send the guy into a flat spin. You reckon my rants are long....   :laugh:

Also said that globull warming is good. Again, greenhouses are warmed up to make the plants grow. If the ice caps melted there would be more water around and we wouldn't have to concern ourselves with " Saving" it anymore.

Guy went positively into orbit.  Think the names he was calling me were supposed to be insulting but I was laughing too hard reading his reply as he had a complete meltdown to care.  ;D

I didn't get much of a reply to my question to him about what were we saving water from?
Extinction? Famine? Bad hair day? 
Think he had a heart attack after seeing that or his keyboard had caught fire from his feverish typing of the last replys. 


... so I got in my planet destroying car and went to blow some more cash on light fittings.....

Quote
I hope you tweaked the "injector output" knob I'm sure you have under the dash, for that "extra black smoke" effect?  :laugh:

Oh come on Ade, what do you take me for?  I'd never do that!
Can't, injector pump is mechanical, not electronic so it has to be ajusted on the pump manually.

......Which is a real pain in the arse so I have the thing set where I can feel the extra weight of another spring I added to tell me after that, any thing less than full boost is going to do a James Bond getaway effect out the exhaust.

I do have to say though, it is SOOOO effective when you get those pelicans that want to sit right up your nether regions.
Change into top, push the pedal right down and they dissappear. when they reappear, they stay a good way back and a dad on the pedal if they get too close again soon has them retreating to a respectable distance.

[/quote]I drive a 4 litre supercharged Jaguar XJR about the place (20mpg *at best*). I'm just trying to feed the plants, that's all, and offset all of those damn Priuses!
[/quote]

Mate had a supercharged Range Rover.
Fuel consumption of a 747 on take off but man that thing had the best sounding engine and exhaust I ever heard with just that touch of blower wine to make it sound truly intimidating. 

Nicest, plushest, seats I have ever seen even in a lounge room and the sound system really was better than being in a concert hall.

Got to have some consolation for a stone smashing a headlight at a road works and finding out a replacement was $3500!!

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: AdeV on March 16, 2018, 07:44:36 PM

Can you imagine the size of the cables going to feed an entire country not to mention the distribution network required to get it into the grid when it got there?

I know how thick the cables need to be just to feed my puny solar setup back to the house mains. Multiply that by a million or so...... Hooee!
You'd be lucky to load 10km worth onto a ship before the weight sank the thing!   


It's not _quite_ as bad as you think... the trick is to use high voltage AC, as most national grids do. The conductors are still quite chunky, but nothing like the sort of chunk you'd need to send big DC voltage around.

The flip side of this, of course, is the losses become significant with long distance. Getting power from Australia to the UK, for example, you'd lose most of it (I hesitate to say 99%, but I bet it'd be around that) in transmission losses - aka heat.

That said, when you look at some of the stuff technology is coming up with these days, I think there are technologies which will knock solar and wind, and possibly even some traditional generation, into a cocked hat. My favourite is the molybdenum disulphide nanopore membrane - partly because it sounds cool, but also because it can generate some pretty spectacular amounts of energy - they reckon around 1 megawatt per square meter of material (!) And all you need (other than this fancy membrane) is a steady supply of salty water, and a steady supply of freshwater. So basically any river delta/estuary then.

Here's a typical article about the stuff: https://futurism.com/new-power-generation-system-membranes-will-only-be-three-atoms-thick/

Biggest problem I've seen mentioned with it, is making the actual nanopores. They can do it; but can they do it on an industrial scale? That remains to be seen... Also, if it's only 3 atoms thick, how big is the smallest fish that will simply swim straight through it...?

Even so. One megawatt per m2 - that means your typical reasonably sized river estuary could potentially provide gigawatts of power, in a relatively compact space/size, continuously day & night. You're not even desalinating the ocean or polluting the river water; you're just mixing them a little more thoroughly a little closer to the delta than would happen naturally.

Of course, some greenist will be along soon to tell us why osmotic power is A Bad Thing For The Environment. They'll probably latch onto "molybdenum", because it sounds a bit funny. Or disulphide (disulfide) because it sounds even more dangerous. Sulphide? Isn't that like Sulphur? Like as in sulphuric acid! Noooo! Run for the hills!
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on March 16, 2018, 08:20:20 PM
Looks interesting but technical content is absent.  Achieving large pressures across a 3 atom membrane seems a tad challenging on a substantial scale- we are talking literally hydro dam pressures AND FLOW RATE created in membrane units; the sun may be in it's expansion phase before this happens.

 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: AdeV on March 16, 2018, 08:25:57 PM
There IS a proper scientific article out there somewhere, I just can't spot it right now.

Actually, cancel that, there's links off this article: https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/nanogenerator-helps-turn-the-tide-on-blue-energy/1010066.article
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 16, 2018, 08:56:50 PM
I knew there had to be a snag, apparently river water is too dirty and would block up the Nano pores in the membrane. Filtration of an entire river could prove challenging.
What about using all that lovely clean water melting off the icecaps? Finally a positive use for global warming!
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on March 16, 2018, 10:40:55 PM
More detail and more interesting.  Thanks AdeV!  The only problem with this sort of gushing journalism on lab results is that most people then think magical technical solutions are nearly here, and thus avoid doing what should be done today.

It reminds me of the technical pitch about methods for nuclear waste disposal present in engineering school in 1975.  They said it was only a political problem, to pick from the many good methods available, and we covered 8 of the top contenders.  Oh boy, did that every turn out to be wildly technically naive.... it's 0/8 after billion$ and43 years later.  The current plan wasn't even in the list- because it is/was so obviously unsafe.  Don't worry, a good solution is right around the corner...and we did in fact count on that, which was dead wrong.

Denial is a  marvelous thing-  I take a big tablespoon every morning as I say to myself that "I'm OK" - when in fact, my health is unstable and declining. 










Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 17, 2018, 01:35:52 AM
  The only problem with this sort of gushing journalism on lab results is that most people then think magical technical solutions are nearly here, and thus avoid doing what should be done today.

Got to say, I am totally disbelieving and unmoved by all these never ending reports of world changing technologies that are being worked on right now and are just around the corner.

There has been hundred's if not thousands of new revolutionary Engines, battery's, ways to produce fuel, safe/ clean nuke energy, aeroplanes that will have spacious lounges, bars and discos, flying cars and so it goes on and on and ......

Yes, new tech does come along but for every thing that makes it to market, there are about 10,000 reports of things you never see or hear of again.
When it hit the stores and I can buy it, I believe it. Until such time, sorry, I'll wait for it to be proven fact not more media/ investment driven hype.
You only ever get one side of the story, the side that is all singing dancing making you think the world is saved.

Just like the basis of this thread.  Sure electric cars can perform great, go good distances, can be recharged in tolerable times and don't have a tail pipe.
That's great when there is a small percentage on the roads, up scaling their use to a significant proportion brings on a lot of problems they don't ever talk about. Have a heap of these things all at a point trying to refuel and there is problems. Lots of problems. The Vehicle may not have a tail pipe but the power station has a huge Chimney spewing out the emissions you were trying to avoid. They can crap on all they like about renewable power but thats a very minor part of the power generation in all but a very small amount of countries like Norway where they are all Hydro. It's going to take many decades to get the grid up to the capacity it would need to provide power for the transport fleet and would have to be upsized significantly over that to allow for future growth as well. Would seem to me to be bit of a case of chasing your tail and never catching up.

Really electrics are no different to me Using veg oil only have more drawbacks.  When there is a handful of nutters like me doing Veg, not a worry. We save fossil fuel, have low emissions, can get all the fuel we want nearly anywhere we go and it's all good and well. Put even 20K vegmobiles on the road and you have a whole heap of issues now.

People do like to kid themselves. Sorry to go on about it but the green movement is the worst.  the spin doctoring they profess and the blind ignorance to obvious fact and logic in order to have a one minded agenda to promote their cause is shocking.  Unfortunately they don't seem to realise the ones and the thing they hurt most is themselves and their cause.

There is always something new and wonderful around the corner no matter what form of media you see.
Until I can get it myself, to me now it's all just more hype and vaporware.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 17, 2018, 01:43:20 AM

The flip side of this, of course, is the losses become significant with long distance. Getting power from Australia to the UK, for example, you'd lose most of it (I hesitate to say 99%, but I bet it'd be around that) in transmission losses - aka heat.

Essentially Ade, You would be criss crossing the oceans with electrical heater elements. Not completely efficient ones but good enough.

Imagine the outcry if you raised the ocean temp ( or they modelled you would) by 0.0000000023%. The do do-gooders would be rioting in the streets.

In your example, I'd say the land mass of Oz when planted with panels could carry the needs of the UK and the isles with power.  We have the space and the weather.  When the sun sets here and we want the power back, it would probably not be possible to return the favour. Much less land, much less favourable weather.  If we look at supplying the US when the sun goes down there...... We are going to have to cover ALL of oz and a few other places to do that!

The energy problem is not at all an easy one to solve.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 17, 2018, 04:12:42 AM
I`m not convinced by the argument that one would loose most of the electrical energy in transit. In the UK they had a national grid system which transmitted power at 450,000 volts through overhead aluminium cables. At that sort of voltage the current is minimal so the heat generated in the cables is also minimal. They also built an undersea link to Europe and generated power is imported/exported at will.

I guess the problem with any system like this is how do you meter it, imagine the chaos if you had to pay your daytime electric bill to a local service provider but your night time bill to the USA or some African business. The yanks are always banging on about the free market economy but I`m pretty sure they would want to own the whole thing and reap the financial benefits. Building globally sensitive infrastructure in under developed countries also has pitfalls, lack of local skilled workers, the threat of military conflict and terrorism spring to mind.

I believe that the best way forward for electricity generation is small localised production using whatever resources are locally available. Keeps the greedy, corrupt and plain stupid out of the equation.

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 17, 2018, 09:55:53 AM
The beauty of these discussions is the curiosity they raise and what you learn from them.
I did some looking and learned a lot on this one.

In the UK they had a national grid system which transmitted power at 450,000 volts through overhead aluminium cables.

I will admit, I was a bit sus on 450KV.  Your cars spark plugs fire at 20 to 50Kv.
Seems though the upper limit for power transmission is 765KV. A biblical number but one which makes 450kV seem conservative.


 
Quote
At that sort of voltage the current is minimal so the heat generated in the cables is also minimal. They also built an undersea link to Europe and generated power is imported/exported at will.

Not quite. from what I found they are still pushing  in units of 1000MW so even broken down, it's still a ship load of current.

The other thing I found suggested that 2000KM seemed to be about the practical limit for power transmission at 765Kv.
Something else I found agreed with this by saying for every 100 Miles you transmit power at 765KV and 1000MW ( the most practical and economical unit) you loose between 1.1 and .5%.
 Given that NZ is over 2000KM away from Oz as the crow flies and I imagine even on the sea floor there would be obstacles and terrain the cable had to go over and down again, that distance would be probably getting to 2400Km minimum.

Given this, the idea of transporting power from one side of the earth to the other is impractical from an engineering POV if not a cost one.
Of course then you have again the problem of powering a Huge land mass like the Americas/ Canada from everywhere else on the other side of the globe which would be all much smaller. 

[/quote] the threat of military conflict and terrorism spring to mind.[/quote]

I don't imagine it would be all that hard to find an undersea cable. The sea is probably not all that deep all the way either and certainly not beyond dropping something down to it.  I would further thing that all you'd really have to do is break through the insulation and it would cause significant problems and power loss.



Quote
I believe that the best way forward for electricity generation is small localised production using whatever resources are locally available.

I think this could certainly be a help but is also fraught with danger.  When the sun don't shine or the wind don't blow you are in trouble is you don't have a regular supply from a power station.

THAT SAID......
In places like Oz where there is a lot of sunshine and people can make good power ( did over 40 KWh myself today and I only have about 9.5Kw of panels hooked up atm) the generation like that can take a LOT of load off the grid. No, can't do it every day but the days you can are a bonus.

Quote
Keeps the greedy, corrupt and plain stupid out of the equation.

Not really Bob, I'm afraid they are already well ahead of you mate.
On most of the eastern seaboard it's illegal to have anything over a 5 KW inverter installed if you are on single phase power. If you are on 3 phase, you can pump back what you like. The stupidity is, 3 phase runs past everyones house and they alternate what phase they put each house on in order to balance the load.  Don't matter if you are pumping 10 KW back into the grid because the guy next door can be doing it too and he'll be on another phase and the guy on the other side will be on the 3rd leg.

It's just another load of crap to stop you being independent and them not making enough money from you. If it were about renewable energy and savng the planet and all that crap, they would be encouraging you to put panels on your roof. To say if everyone did it is another insult to ones intelligence.
If the grid is set up so all the houses in the street can pull power, then obviously the capacity to send it back is there too.
Now while all the houses in the street may be power positive instead of negative, a whole load of places that don't have panels are not too far away.
Couple of KM from me there is a huge nursing home. No panels there and they have sub stations out the front to supply all the residences in the complex.
Couple more KM down the road is the shopping centre. again, no panels and 90o the other way, is the industrial area with large factories and heavy industry.  That area alone would suck up all the power quite happily from every home in a 10 KM radius.

On the nice sunny days the Power station can idle down and minimise all that co32 the plants love and which makes no difference to the globull air quality. When it's not, we can crank them up and keep the lights on knowing we have mad a great improvement in what we used to emit and be satisfied.

I agree 100% with the local Idea but I'm sorry Bob, I think the only way to keep the corrupt and greedy away is to be completely off grid.
.... And when too many people go that route, watch the new taxes and annual inspections and other revenue raising crap come into it.

I have to have a " Licence" to run the septic for my shitter. Imagine when everyone wants to look after their own power!!

When I get in office, I'll have gubbermint provided Listers and Panels for everyone.
Fixed!
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on March 23, 2018, 03:20:22 PM
If the power station is idled down during the daytime when the power prices are the highest . How does the power station pay it’s bills and mortgage if it isnMt selling power . Power prices do not pay the  power plant’s bills  at night and on weekends when there is a glut of power .
   For utilities with nuclear base load generation . What are you going to due with the surplus power on weekend days and daytime during the spring and fall when demand is reduced as here are neither AC or heating loads on the utility grid .
   For those that don’t know . Nuclear power plants by their nature operate at 100% power 24/7 for months at a time . You just don’t yank the throttle lever back on a nuclear unit to load follow .
  That said some plants try and have to work around flux tilts in the reactor core . The chance
If unit upset and trip due to xenon-135 poisoning if power is run back to fast and too far . The delay in Xenon-135 production makes reactor power control more complex due to the delay and having to maintain enough positive “K” .
   Other nuclear power plants keep reactor power up but blow steam to the condensers which is wasteful and causes wear condenser wear as most condenser heat exchangers were no designed for prolonged impact of high velocity and high temperature steam.
   If you want backup to wind and power , be ready to foot the bill for a fossil power plant to sit idle . And be ready to foot the bill for the high subsidized price of wind or solar power .
   As for Ontario. The rate payer funds the utility getting rid of excess daytime and weekend power by PAYING New York and Michigan to TAKE the excess power . Google how many billion Ontario has paid to do such over the years .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on March 23, 2018, 04:05:46 PM
EVs and green energy ? It has pretty well been covered . The voting public that doesn’t know anything technical and who have been convinced by repetition that CO2 is poison. Their guilt is absolved if they vote for EV’s and green energy .
    Professionally and perpetually irritated social justice warriers  have something to scream about .
   The politicians like EV’s and green energy as it obtains votes and kick backs under the table from contractors .
   Contractors and industry like the $$$ made tearing down fossil plants and building green energy .
    The wealthy ruling class is making $$$ with green energy subsidies . And they have bought coal mines knowing that power demands will cause a demand for coal someday . Plus $$$ made as their companies charge for getting rid of fossil , charge to build green and later again charge as they build fossil in the future .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on March 23, 2018, 05:50:49 PM
The big three. 

1)  Poop

2)  Piss

3)  CO2

Goodbye waste.  Ready for the new stuff.

The next step - electric cars.  What could be more rational.

Cheers
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on March 23, 2018, 05:57:29 PM
Lets all get mad at other people who direct their emotionally driven decisions (the only kind made by humans) towards "saving the planet".   

Oh wait, that might be somewhat based on a global scientific consensus.  Let's just ignore that.

Seriously, my concern about electric cars is the concern for human health from every increasing levels of EMFs.  Home EMF levels have dramatically raised due to cellular/WIFI and general wireless use, plus the insidious increase of poor quality switching power supplies in lighting, appliances and electronics.  This on top of the technical blunder of typical WYE system power grounding practice which puts 25% of the return current in the earth and aquifers and lack of maintenance of power lines with arcing on loose line hardware (from induced voltages near lines). Then lets add home power grid tie inverters with almost no filtration or EMI control to further radiate from the home wiring while the sun shines...while continuing to build homes with unshielded home wiring.  Lets ignore the increasing numbers of scientists and doctors warning that EMFs are a serious health problem. 

It's quite possible that we are ignorant enough to try to solve one serious problem with a solution even more damaging.





Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 24, 2018, 02:20:03 AM
If the power station is idled down during the daytime when the power prices are the highest . How does the power station pay it’s bills and mortgage if it isnMt selling power .

Nuclear power plants by their nature operate at 100% power 24/7 for months at a time . You just don’t yank the throttle lever back on a nuclear unit to load follow .

You are trying to defend high power prices and Nuke power plants. Sounds a lot to me like you have vested interests.
Let me take a wild guess here, You work in the power industry.... in a nuke Plant.

If that's the case, you'll understand if I take your comments with a bag of salt.
The power industry here represent and regularly demonstrate every example of big business greed, lack of concern for anything but their own self interests, and in basic terms, are a pack of corporate mongerals.

There is a BIG difference between making a profit and holding everyone to randsom when making HUGE profits and trying every dirty and deceptive trick in the book to make more.  They HAVE here used High consumption as an excuse to hike prices, they have used low consumption as an excuse to hike prices. They claimed increasing demand as a reason that people NEEDED to pay more for power when they let their infrastructure get to a dangerous point of collapse and conned the gubbermint into bailing them out. When they got things in order and demand had fallen because of the uptake of solar they pushed for to keep them afloat when they were sinking and take the pressure off then then claimed prices had to go up further because they were now not selling as much power.  This isn't heresay, it's documented FACT. I have read the submissions to gubbermint to get their rises approved... not that they would take much with the pollies in their pockets.

It's not my concern to worry about these entitys profits. There is no chance of them becoming unprofitable, they post profits of hundreds of millions per quarter. And the pay laughably low tax rates on that further sticking it to their  customers and society in general.

As far nuke, that could be the greatest evil in the world today. There is NO justification for it and the claims of clean power are complete and utter bullshit. Anything that produces the most deadly, long lasting harmful waste on the planet is NOT clean and anyone that claims it is ought to be belted in the head with a shovel for their lies, ignorance or both. Thank God we don't have any here but in the grand scheme of things, we are probably being poisoned like the rest of the world from Fukushima right now and will be forever more.

If an intelligent species ever did land on this blue ball and learn about nuke power, they would wonder how any society could be so stupid as to poison themselves with this garbage and if they were fair and just, they would eliminate any and all behind it and whom allowed it.

I am pretty sure that nuke powerplants can be throttled to limited capacitys. The fact they may not be is probably more to do again with corprate greed and BS excuses that anything else.  They may take many hours or a day to change output for all I know but there is no way they HAVE to be run full tilt all the time.  In any case, if they are not suitable for the demands of the grid and the job they need to do, shut the things down.  They are the most dangerous, polluting and expensive form of power in use so any other alternative is superior.

Surprisingly, I do completely agree with you on your comments about Ev's and green energy. Mostly.
Still being the power industry, it is rotten and corrupt to the core and beyond but If utilised properly, say with Clean Coal power generation which can be throttled and still turn a profit, green power has a definate place.

It is ironic the power industry and those that largely oppose it, the green movement have a fundamental core similarity, they want it ALL their own way.
Power industry do not anyone to have panels on their roof and miss out on making every cent they can. Green washed aren't content to make improvements and have some  green options supplementing traditional ones to give the best and most stable result, they want everything to be green, NOW, and lets deny and hide the problems that ideal causes.

Here in Oz we have lots of sun and NO nuke power stations that can't be throttled. The coal stations we have that supplement things like Hydro, solar and wind, ( loathe as I am to credit the 2 latter) can be adapted to demand are that is done daily and as a matter of course. There is no reason why people can't put all the solar they can on their roofs, particularly in teh citys where demand is highest, to supplement the coal fired stations which CAN be idled  with the only limitation being outright greed of the operators.

Solar and wind is NOT a viable option and wont be for decades to come, if ever.
The logical thing to do would be to use the best of all options available and put greed and revenue aside and put the well being of the planet and all whom infect it first.

Corporates and Gubbermints won't allow that though, anything that cots them a cent in revenue is dissuaded with any face saving excuse it can insult people with.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 24, 2018, 02:42:00 AM
It's quite possible that we are ignorant enough to try to solve one serious problem with a solution even more damaging.

Possible??
It's clearly demonstrable! Over and over and over again! Endlessly!
I'll give the example I just mentioned, Nuclear Power generation and leave it at that.

You, as usual, raise excellent and not often if ever thought of points.
I know beans about EMF but I can tell you, when we were looking at new homes last year, the ones anywhere near HV power lines we drove straight past.  Also passed one up that would have been perfect bar the fact it was right next to a water resivour tank  that had a huge Mobile phone tower also in the reserve. Water tank didn't worry in the slightest but the phone tower was a complete deal breaker.

I probably expose myself to more than my fair share of EMF in my ignorance about it but I'm not so stupid to ignore the glaringingly obvious.
People refute the existence of EMF but I have seen people standing under towers with Fluro light tubes that glow and that tells me there is something there and it's significant.

As for your comment on shielded wiring, could you link to something that one could use to sheild wiring in the home?
I can't ever remember seeing it listed for sale at any eelectrical place and don't have any idea what it would actually look like.  I remember as a kid the wiring in my grandparents place was all cloth covered in steel conduit.  An obvious hazzard in one way but perhaps with positive outcomes in another. Of course back then you could count the electrical appliances on one hand in the entire home that were permanent fixtures as against an electric frypan or drill that was used when required then put away.

Also with shielding, in a basic form, If one were to enclose everything in a steel box as fasr as say GTI',s breakers etc or appliance like computers, does a steel box essential ( apart from power cords) stop EMF? When my daughter was younger I made a " bed" fpr her phone to go in out of an old metal Biscuit tin with a lid.  Stopped the bastard going off all the time when the other kids sent some world stopping message about who said what to who at school today. Worked for a while till she worked out when she pulled the thing out of a morning there were no notifications and then the thing went nuts with messages sent hours ago.

I can well imagine that EMF shielding on electric cars would not be given a thought other than to dismiss it. I can also imagine being in that faraday cage
mobile steel box with the EMF would be essentially like being in a microwave with lots of the radiation bouncing around. Put a metal film tint on the windows and you could help keep it all in and concentrated even more!

Combining your concerns with electrics and my own, I wonder how much the elvesl of EMF would increase with the amount of power required to increase in the grid and in power lines running through the streets etc to power the vehicle fleet if it were all or majorly running of electricity?
My guess would be that increasing the power supply by 4 to 5 Times what it is now would not increase the EMF at the same rate but rather quite exponentially.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on March 24, 2018, 06:21:13 AM
Increasing the load in a Wye served neighborhood in countries with split phase Wye single phase power does increase magnetic fields.  During peak load periods, ELF magnetic field levels are typically 4x the off peak.  I'm not sure how that will affect things in Australia as I don't know your power distribution and grounding practice there.  If you are transformer isolated, no worries.  If they are hard grounding on conductor in multiple places and jumping it around the transformers, you're screwed.

ELF magnetic fields penetrate almost anything.  The magnetic flux can be redirected through mild steel to a small degree (50% reduction inside a car, 60-70% in a heavy walled water pressure tank.  Grain oriented silicon steel (GOES) or mu-metals (specially annealed high nickel alloys) are much more effective, but it takes multiple isolated layers, each worth about 50% reduction.
You can't practically shield a home from these, nor can you practically actively cancel it, as that introduces higher frequencies which are even more problematic. 

Electric fields from home wiring are readily shielded by EMT conduit with compression fittings which is sold in every electrical supply store, but is never used in homes.  Foil or conductive paint can be used with far less effectiveness.

A general principal in EMC, the engineering field addressing EMI, shielding, etc. is that solving EMI problems is best and most cheaply done by mitigating it during design and development, at the source.  Trying to bandaid the problem after the fact by add on filtering and shielding is far less effective and far more expensive.  In the home, the worst sources of magnetic fields, and EMI are most commonly ALL YOUR OWN FAULT, controlled entirely by you.  Just looking at one component, radio/microwaves, applying some basic knowledge of all radio wave propagation helps immensely.  All radio waves propagate with signal strength falling off with square of the distance.  So complaining about cell towers within a mile of the home (shown over and over to cause problems with depression, anxiety, insomnia, in part from elevated cortisol levels, a marker of stress shown to be affected by radio waves)  is rather foolish when holding a cell phone or using wireless phones and WIFI in the home, often less than 10 feet away.  Yes, the 1/4 watt transmitter at 10 feet is much worse than the 500 watt transmitter two miles away.

A broadband RF meter such as those sold by Cornet is about $170 US, and will quickly help educate yourself in how you are damaging your health.  They have one which will also measure lower frequency electric and magnetic fields in the same meter.  When we all read the studies that have shown brain wave changes that last for hours, after using a cell phone for 15-20 minutes, and affects quality of sleep in sleep studies, what these independent researchers are saying in plain english is, you are screwing up your brain and your health by using these things, no matter how convenient you may think them.

It's relatively easy to make 10 fold improvements in the typical home EMF situation, and often 100 fold.  That's across the board, ELF magnetic fields, VLF-HF electric fields from home wiring, and radio/microwave levels.  Usually it's a matter of eliminating or moving things, correcting minor wiring errors and grounding issues.  (No, more hard grounding is NOT the solution.)  Shielding is only used rarely and mostly just for bedrooms, as for retrofits, it's quite costly. 

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on March 27, 2018, 03:05:29 PM
It's quite possible that we are ignorant enough to try to solve one serious problem with a solution even more damaging.

Possible??
It's clearly demonstrable! Over and over and over again! Endlessly!
I'll give the example I just mentioned, Nuclear Power generation and leave it at that.

You, as usual, raise excellent and not often if ever thought of points.
I know beans about EMF but I can tell you, when we were looking at new homes last year, the ones anywhere near HV power lines we drove straight past.  Also passed one up that would have been perfect bar the fact it was right next to a water resivour tank  that had a huge Mobile phone tower also in the reserve. Water tank didn't worry in the slightest but the phone tower was a complete deal breaker.

I probably expose myself to more than my fair share of EMF in my ignorance about it but I'm not so stupid to ignore the glaringingly obvious.
People refute the existence of EMF but I have seen people standing under towers with Fluro light tubes that glow and that tells me there is something there and it's significant.

As for your comment on shielded wiring, could you link to something that one could use to sheild wiring in the home?
I can't ever remember seeing it listed for sale at any eelectrical place and don't have any idea what it would actually look like.  I remember as a kid the wiring in my grandparents place was all cloth covered in steel conduit.  An obvious hazzard in one way but perhaps with positive outcomes in another. Of course back then you could count the electrical appliances on one hand in the entire home that were permanent fixtures as against an electric frypan or drill that was used when required then put away.

Also with shielding, in a basic form, If one were to enclose everything in a steel box as fasr as say GTI',s breakers etc or appliance like computers, does a steel box essential ( apart from power cords) stop EMF? When my daughter was younger I made a " bed" fpr her phone to go in out of an old metal Biscuit tin with a lid.  Stopped the bastard going off all the time when the other kids sent some world stopping message about who said what to who at school today. Worked for a while till she worked out when she pulled the thing out of a morning there were no notifications and then the thing went nuts with messages sent hours ago.

I can well imagine that EMF shielding on electric cars would not be given a thought other than to dismiss it. I can also imagine being in that faraday cage
mobile steel box with the EMF would be essentially like being in a microwave with lots of the radiation bouncing around. Put a metal film tint on the windows and you could help keep it all in and concentrated even more!

Combining your concerns with electrics and my own, I wonder how much the elvesl of EMF would increase with the amount of power required to increase in the grid and in power lines running through the streets etc to power the vehicle fleet if it were all or majorly running of electricity?
My guess would be that increasing the power supply by 4 to 5 Times what it is now would not increase the EMF at the same rate but rather quite exponentially.

Have you priced nuclear per Kwhr vs subsidized wind,subsidized  solar and the subsidized shall generate NG turbines ? Are you aware of how much the rate payer spends to pay the US to take surplus wind and solar power ? Do you not see the greed and  corruption in that?  With cheaper hydraulic and nuclear power being rejected and paying for more expensive wind, solar and gas .
   How would you be qualified to speak to anything regarding nuclear ?
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on March 27, 2018, 03:13:20 PM
Where is this terrible smokestack on EPA approved fossil plants ? With clean soft coal, improved burners , fast reaction CEMs , scrubbers, precipitors and injection systems . The only thing thing going up the stack is moisture, nitrogen and plant food .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on March 27, 2018, 05:01:39 PM
Pretending nuclear isn't subsidized, and that coal is appropriate for new development is foolish but is right out the power industry propaganda.  The real cost of nuclear is being pushed onto your grandkids and great grandkids; there is no viable plan for the radioactive waste and the real downstream cost of decommissioning of old plants is still unknown.   Nor will any insurance company in the world insure a nuclear power plant.  No plant was ever built without gigantic overruns on cost and schedule. The rate and taxpayers foot the bill.  Right now we need our existing nuclear to keep us afloat but we ought to be pursuing solar with thermal storage and other renewables.

 As for coal- it is the perfect, stable, sequestered form of CO2.  What is the cost of relocating hundreds of millions of people from coastlines, and disruption of farming from climate change?  Most of the experts in the field around the world think it's way beyond serious, and military planners are assuming chaos will ensue as a result of disruption of food and water resources. "Clean coal" is a propaganda campaign just like the ones in the 60's for nuclear power- "too cheap to meter".

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/02/clean-coal-america-kemper-power-plant

But hey, let's believe power company propaganda instead.  Just because all of their previous predictions where utterly wrong, costing rate payers a fortune, doesn't mean we can't cling to their fantasy. 











Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 28, 2018, 10:53:53 AM

Sorry Bruce but this one we will disagree on.

I will never see the globull warming thing as anything but a money maker.  There is ALWAYS a price connected with saving the environment etc and anything that can be done and effective is ignored.  As I mentioned, if it were about saving the planet, there wouldn't be the restrictions and limitations on private solar. It would be encouraged not discouraged. Anything effective in the saving the planet initiative and that is pushed always has a high cost and good returns for big biz and gubbermints.

The predictions of the climate change scientists and proponents have always failed and had to be revised over and over.

It's going to take a LOT for me to give it all any credibility  and the first thing will be to put the cause they go on so much about before profits.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on March 28, 2018, 02:31:51 PM
Pretending nuclear isn't subsidized, and that coal is appropriate for new development is foolish but is right out the power industry propaganda.  The real cost of nuclear is being pushed onto your grandkids and great grandkids; there is no viable plan for the radioactive waste and the real downstream cost of decommissioning of old plants is still unknown.   Nor will any insurance company in the world insure a nuclear power plant.  No plant was ever built without gigantic overruns on cost and schedule. The rate and taxpayers foot the bill.  Right now we need our existing nuclear to keep us afloat but we ought to be pursuing solar with thermal storage and other renewables.

 As for coal- it is the perfect, stable, sequestered form of CO2.  What is the cost of relocating hundreds of millions of people from coastlines, and disruption of farming from climate change?  Most of the experts in the field around the world think it's way beyond serious, and military planners are assuming chaos will ensue as a result of disruption of food and water resources. "Clean coal" is a propaganda campaign just like the ones in the 60's for nuclear power- "too cheap to meter".

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/02/clean-coal-america-kemper-power-plant

But hey, let's believe power company propaganda instead.  Just because all of their previous predictions where utterly wrong, costing rate payers a fortune, doesn't mean we can't cling to their fantasy.

I don’t know what anti nuclear group s have been scaring money out of  the public with . The anti nuclear groups have bills too for wages airfare for trips , hotel rooms , meals out , entertainment etc
   Decommissioning coats and  fuel storage costs  are already in ear marked escrow accounts paid out of the nuclear units operating budget .
   Our units are covered by insurance as they are low risk.
   Then again if nuclear is mentioned and the conversation is not negative . You have chosen not to believe otherwise no matter what evidence is presented .
   Why would you believe some liberal arts paid protestor instead of those who are familiar with nuclear power .
   Do you see any suffering in Nagasaki or Hiroshima? Cancer rates there lower than the national average .
    If you want something toxic to worry about . Check out all the poisons in landfills, abandoned industrial sites and active industrial sites . What will get you is lead, mercury, cadmium, PCB’s , dioxins and assorted organic chemicals . Benzene, MEK just to list a couple .   
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on March 28, 2018, 02:46:14 PM
Al Gore and friends have made billions on rate payer subsidized solar and wind . Tax breaks and selling the carbon credits . Somebody’s company  gets paid for all the studies, surveys , engineering and legal work that was invented. .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: oldgoat on March 28, 2018, 03:20:52 PM
Which escrow account do you cover the costs of accidents such as Windscale Fukushima and Chernobyl from. Just watched a documentary on resealing the Chernobyl reactor it will last for 100 years but who will look after it until the radiation falls to a safe level which I suspect will take a little longer than that.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on March 28, 2018, 05:38:11 PM
While nuclear facilities in most countries are required to contribute to 3rd party insurance pools,  liabilities are capped by law and the hosting government assumes liability.  In the US the Price Anderson act does this and the pool insurance limit of $12 billion is clearly grossly inadequate, as Fukishima demonstrates.  Other estimates of $5 trillion for a major accident have been made, others at $500 billion.  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149197016300415

Saying that nuclear power plants are insured, while in fact they have pushed liability for a serious accident onto taxpayers is the sort of slight of hand the industry is famous for. 

The same slight of hand through manipulation is used to cover up the spent  fuel issue; in the US the spent fuel disposal cost is artificially low (set by government) yet the government has in fact no disposal system; the failed Yucca mountain program is scientifically recognized as a technical farce. 

The power industry has been manipulating governments and legislation and propagandizing the public since their inception.  They are masters at it, far better than the tobacco companies. They continue.  One good book on the topic is "Power Struggle" by Rudolph and Ridley. 

They will continue to do what any large corporation does by charter- maximize shareholder profits by any means possible. Our world needs to incentivize moral and social values for large corporations, somehow.  We have created a monster.

There are plenty of good articles about the grim financial realities of nuclear power; they have failed miserably on the economic level because of huge cost overruns in construction, high operating costs, and short operational life (due to radioactive embrittlement of the critical plumbing in cooling systems), even ignoring the real costs of waste storage.  The problem isn't a liberal conspiracy.

As a former engineer I very much like the look of new fission nuclear designs which don't rely on an active cooling system for shut downs.  This would avoid Fukishima type disasters.  (In retrospect, you have to wonder about why you would press into a service a design that required a huge functioning active cooling system for extended periods on "shut down").  Alas, initial trials of "pebble bed" did not look good from what I've read.  Perhaps someday we will even have fusion power, but for now, it seems that "fusion at a distance" (the sun) is our best bet for nuclear energy.

















Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on March 28, 2018, 06:42:35 PM
If you don't understand that much of the military industrial complex associated with the US endeavors in the middle East aren't a subsidy to oil then you should think about the lack of activity in tragic parts of Africa. 

I'd like you to tell people living near the Hanford project in Central Washington, USA that we've got the nuclear waste problem under control.  How many decades has it been now?

Wake up and smell the solar.

The fake news I listen to at this time reports that both solar and wind power are less expensive to build, maintain and decommission.  My observation is they don't go "Boom-Boom" so real men aren't attracted to them.  Planned, sensible and sustainable are just very tough sales in America.

I test drove an BMW I3.  A very nice ride but quiet and efficient; again, a tough sale.  How about those electrical producers that are now giving $10,000 rebates to I3 buyers in some parts of California.  What's up?

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on March 28, 2018, 11:45:05 PM
Regarding using Hiroshima as an example of the safety of nuclear power; very little hard radiation is left in the area of a bomb blast.  It is in fact now spread over the entire planet.  This is vastly different from the situation of Fukishima.
A good article and interview with the former Prime Minister of Japan, who was a physicist and former supporter of nuclear power.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-fukushima-disaster-and-the-future-of-nuclear-power-in-japan-an-interview-with-former-prime-minister-kan-naoto/5547438



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 29, 2018, 09:08:38 AM
   Do you see any suffering in Nagasaki or Hiroshima? Cancer rates there lower than the national average .

Are you trying to be insulting to peoples intelligence with the spin doctored comparison of a nuke bomb to that of a nuke reactor meltdown?
Why did you ignore the incomprehensible disasters that are Chernoybl and Fukushima and thousands of people who have suffered with those accidents?

And just to pre empt another insult, YES, there ARE thousands of people that have suffered and died so don't bother trying to quote some BS nuke industry/ Gubbermint Numbers.

Your diversionary tactics are typical of the nuke industry and those they pay off.  Too scared to argue the truth and have to fabricate a load of garbage instead to try and put their point across.
 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on March 29, 2018, 06:04:29 PM
Hmmmm - The sound of deep thought.  Yeah, I'm scared too.  Aren't atomic bombs designed to exploded high above the particulate matter referred to as earth and allowing half of the radiation to broadcast into space?  This system also might greatly reduce the molecular poisoning that hangs around longer than our time references really grasp.

This could be why so many educated people are so concerned about those stupid ole reactor meltdowns.

Back to basics.  Have you seen the two Honda electrics teased as 2019 and 2020 production cars.  Nice people sized cars going back to what cars are primarily for: Transportation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vddD1bOUMWw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vddD1bOUMWw)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4HQO-7btuM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4HQO-7btuM)
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on March 29, 2018, 07:25:53 PM
Next would be adding PV to "shaded" parking in the US southwest, at least.  What isn't being used for cars could feed the stores and/or grid.  Large employers could offer this so that slow solar charging during work hours could be the norm.  Covering the vast acreages of parking lots, now black asphalt, with PV might help lower the night time temperatures here also.   

It's difficult to come up with a carbon scheme that will not be a debacle, but with the right incentives, I think everyone in sunny climes with the capital to do it would be looking at parking lots and other open spaces as clean power revenue.  Shifting power use to daytime needs to be part of it.  Being off grid makes you think that way in a hurry. 



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: dieselspanner on March 29, 2018, 11:18:14 PM
Bollocks...........

The answer is Java

http://sourced.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2017/10/25/this-start-up-is-turning-your-leftover-coffee-grounds-into-clean/?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=exchange

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 30, 2018, 12:47:51 AM

Back to basics.  Have you seen the two Honda electrics teased as 2019 and 2020 production cars.  Nice people sized cars going back to what cars are primarily for: Transportation.

Takeaways from the Clips:

15 Min Charging,
350Kw Chargers,
Too small for American Market.

15min Charging @350KW?
Where the fk they going to find power circuits to tap into that sort of power?
You are talking the max ( VERY RARELY IF ever Reached) Consumption here of 10 Houses. In reality it would be more like 20-30 because you'd have to have the pool pump, AC, oven and hot water running all at the same time to be pulling that sort of power for a start.

Certainly one of these charging stations on it's own may be easy handled but 5 or 10 at a time..... Thats SERIOUS power draw!

I'm not sure what the max 3 phase power is in Japan or europe, lets say it's the same as here, around 440V.
350 Kw@440V is about 800 Amps!  at 240 it's about 1450A.
Here, our homes are wired for a max of 80A per phase.  IF you are on single as most places are, then you have about 20KW, 3 phase 60. But they are talking 350KW? That's a BIG jump and when you multiply it out... see my first rant on the difficulties of supplying power to replace fossil fuels and multiply it by 3.5.

It would cost you a bomb to have a circuit on your house wired like that. Pretty sure they wouldn't do it here.
What about at a shopping centre? Even somewhere like that is going to be severely taxed with that sort of draw added on. I have seen and helped run cables that were good for 300A @440V and know what they look like and they wouldn't be near enough for the draw Honda are talking about.

It's irrelevant what the supply or charge voltage is, you still have to supply the watts and that's a massive amount.
My guess is the 350Kw will be the " optimal" number but the realistic ones will be miles lower than that and the  charge time much longer. Probably only be a scarce few charging stations around that supply 350 Kw just so Honda can say it " can" charge in 15 min just like Tesla try to tell you charging an electric is cheaper than fueling an IC vehicle.

For a place to provide 350Kw/ 15 min charging, the setup cost would be substantial so I am then left to wonder what the price of charging at such stations would be?  Also substantial I guess as if you want fast, You have to pay for it.

I had to laugh at the comment the car was a bit small for the American market. Why is it that Americans can't get on with cars the rest of the word manage happily with and everyone thinks they need to drive an F250?
Only one of my Americans mates is anywhere near my size, the rest of them are of a far more compact stature. They have cars sold internationally though and don't have this general mentality they have to be driving a battle ship.

Given how many people in the US live in city's and apartments and don't need to carry 12 bales of hay everywhere they go, I would have thought this car would be perfect for them but that' is another problem electrics face and not an insignificant one.

I am reminded of the basic Failure of the Tata Nano in India.  It was a small, cheap. economical car targeted at the millions of poor indians that were putting a family of 6 On motor scooters because that's all they could afford to buy and run.  Tata produce a car that will give them far more comfort and safety and it failed to sell despite being an excellent vehicle because all these poor Indians that had the arse out their pants didn't want to be seen in a " Cheap" car. 
Nah, Take the entire family on a motor bike, that creates a much higher impression of status and wealth!   ::)

Ford will have to bring out a full size electric "Pickup" before electrics really get any Cred in the US.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 30, 2018, 01:34:39 AM
Next would be adding PV to "shaded" parking in the US southwest, at least.  What isn't being used for cars could feed the stores and/or grid.

I am back up North atm in our Sunny " smart" state and was in a car park this morning that has shaded parking spaces ( although oddly enough different to the multi levels everywhere at home) because of the severe heat up here.

Some places are utilizing this space to put panels on or are making the shade from panels themselves which is a better idea still.
It's a good way of doing things and one can see how the power generated could be worth while but when you start adding car charging into the mix, it really becomes a drop in the bucket.
Even smaller electrics now have 50Kwh batterys and if you work out how many panels that takes to generate in a day and the size of the area they take up, it's not hard to visualize how a large carpark is probably only going to provide enough power to fully charge 5-10 cars per day.

250W panel ( for comparisons sake, yes panels are more powerful now but proportionally larger) up here would do 1.25 Kw day. 40 panels to do 50 Kw.  That is a lot of panels, a lot of structure to support them, a lot of cabling, a BIG inverter and all to charge one car with nothing left over for anything else.
Panels Might put a decent dent in the power consumption of the centre but vehicles using about 5 times more than the average home... that power does not go far.

These alternatives are much the same. Not enough land to grow crops to fuel vehicles and not enough land to put enough panels either. Sure panels may get more efficient in future but not in the same time scale as people, gubbermints and vested interests want to push electrics on us.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on March 30, 2018, 05:10:33 AM
You forgot to adjust for marketing bullshit in your car charging calculations.  No way are they going to full up charge that thing in 15 minutes;  more likely it's only 50-80% State of Charge.

A PV parking charge at an employee parking lot would only have to do a slow charge (8 hrs) typically.  A single parking spot roof frame could hold the area of about (7) 300W panels so about an average of 1.5KW x 8hrs = 12KWA.
Tesla owners say 305WH/mile so 12KWA is 39 miles.   That might work for many.

For myself,  I hope algae oil progresses so I can keep my old '85 mechanically injected MB300D going all the way to my funeral.  It's got a PV panel on the roof to keep the battery charged instead of an alternator.  I tell people it cuts fuel consumption by almost 50% just for fun. 




Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: dieselspanner on March 30, 2018, 07:30:26 AM
That's interesting, Bruce.

It makes it sound useful for those who have 20 mile commute, from an RAC report I saw recently the average in the UK is a little over 10 miles, so there must be some promise in it, even allowing for our crappy weather.

I'm sure I could work this out, well probably, but how far will the Tesla 40 ton truck travel if the roof of the trailer was covered in solar panels and it was in full sunlight?

Glort, what size charging system would the truck need to top up over an eight hour stop?

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: oldgoat on March 30, 2018, 11:13:49 AM
350 Kw chicken feed. Our local IGA store had to fit a 4500 kva transformer supply probably to feed the miles of friges and freezers they have not to mention the acre of air conditioning. You could line up a dozen EV's at the same time and put 48 through in an hour and have traffic lights to co-ordinate them.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: AdeV on March 30, 2018, 12:32:03 PM
Quote
You could line up a dozen EV's at the same time and put 48 through in an hour and have traffic lights to co-ordinate them.

Given that's around 50% less than an equivalent petrol/gas station could handle with the same number of "pumps", you either need 50% more charging stations, of 50% more gas stations to accomodate the same number of EVs as you currently handle petrol/diesel.

Something else currently un-discussed: When the Government starts losing big chunks of revenue, because people stop buying petrol/diesel for road use (which, in the UK in particular, is very heavily taxed; the USA less so), they're going to need to raise it some other way. Expect each KW of "road electricity" to cost $$$ more than regular "house" electricity. And your shiny new smart meter (if you've got one...) will be neatly reporting every erg of energy that goes into your road vehicle, so you can be taxed $$$ on it.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 30, 2018, 03:58:01 PM
350 Kw chicken feed. Our local IGA store had to fit a 4500 kva transformer supply probably to feed the miles of friges and freezers they have not to mention the acre of air conditioning. You could line up a dozen EV's at the same time and put 48 through in an hour and have traffic lights to co-ordinate them.

You do realise that 4500 KVA that feeds all the freezers and aircon is only going to be enough to feed about 7 cars ( not quite) @ 350 Kw?
How many cars are in that IGA carpark at any given time? You are going to need a lot more power than 4500KVA to charge 12 cars at the Honda rate.  Try stacking all those IGa's next to one another all the way up the road and see how the grid copes.
And who the fk is going to sit round in their cars for probably an hour at least to charge their cars up?
Defeats the whole point of a 15 Min charge if you have to wait an hour to get it.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 30, 2018, 04:18:51 PM
Quote
You could line up a dozen EV's at the same time and put 48 through in an hour and have traffic lights to co-ordinate them.

Given that's around 50% less than an equivalent petrol/gas station could handle with the same number of "pumps", you either need 50% more charging stations, of 50% more gas stations to accomodate the same number of EVs as you currently handle petrol/diesel.

And you will need all the extra power generation to fuel them.

Something else currently un-discussed: When the Government starts losing big chunks of revenue, because people stop buying petrol/diesel for road use (which, in the UK in particular, is very heavily taxed; the USA less so), they're going to need to raise it some other way. Expect each KW of "road electricity" to cost $$$ more than regular "house" electricity. And your shiny new smart meter (if you've got one...) will be neatly reporting every erg of energy that goes into your road vehicle, so you can be taxed $$$ on it.
[/quote]

I did touch on that.
In NZ you pay road tax by mileage. Don't matter what fuel you are using, you pay to be on the road. THey may choose to do it a variety of ways and I'm sure they will do whatever they thing extracts max $$.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on March 30, 2018, 04:39:42 PM

It makes it sound useful for those who have 20 mile commute, from an RAC report I saw recently the average in the UK is a little over 10 miles, so there must be some promise in it, even allowing for our crappy weather.

The trouble I find with this short range, drive to the office type thing is you need another car, probably an IC to do other things like visit the rellies on the weekends or go on holidays.  You have to also then off set the cost of the electric and registration/ insureance etc against the cost of running an " all round" IC car.  IF the 9-5 commute is short, chances are the IC is going to work out a hell f a lot cheaper for the foreseeable future .

Quote
I'm sure I could work this out, well probably, but how far will the Tesla 40 ton truck travel if the roof of the trailer was covered in solar panels and it was in full sunlight?

I'd guess maybe 5 exrta miles in a day.... If it were really sunny that is. Even if you do 20 Kwh, THat's only 1/3rd the distance a small Ev goes on that amount of power.  What ever you put on it panel wise being flat, possibly shaded from trees near the road, tunnels etc., It's going to make bugger all difference that's for sure.

Quote
Glort, what size charging system would the truck need to top up over an eight hour stop?


I don't know the battery size of the truck, has it been specced as yet?
In any case, it would be a HUGE array.
One of the tesla cars has 100KWH battery. I would Imagine a truck would eed 5-10X that at least.

IF you have a car with 100KW pack and want to charge it in a day, If we take the 4X multiple of the KW of the array to be the returned KWH, a car would need a 25KW array.
5x that would be 125KW and 10x obviously 250KW.

That is going to take a LOT of surface area to generate that much power. If you have 250W panels which even though they are bigger now, would probably be a good number to allow for losses and the amount of power DELIVERED, THat's 1000 Panels. At 1.5 sq m ea, I make that one sq KW of panels.... and that' not allowing for spacing, that's total coverage. Maybe you an get 50% coverage, you are going to need at least 2 Sq Km to put all those panels. in. Even if the panels are 300 w they are bigger so the surface area remains the same.
A lot!
Of course if you have a few trucks.......
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mike90045 on March 30, 2018, 06:36:12 PM
...I'm sure I could work this out, well probably, but how far will the Tesla 40 ton truck travel if the roof of the trailer was covered in solar panels and it was in full sunlight?.....

"Full sunlight"   That means not flat on roof , but angled to be perpendicular to sun, on a moving trailer, not feasible

 Might add a couple dozen miles in daytime, >30 miles additional range, doubtful.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on March 30, 2018, 07:00:04 PM
"Java"  That's a neat program.  I wonder how pumped the article is compared to reality?  We put our grounds in the compost but we live in the sticks.  As fuel or new soil or ??? this represents interesting thinking for a waste product that will help clean up the waste bins and landfills. 

So while your thinking of all the reasons that this won't work you might remember that China is getting too rich to sort through our rubbish to eke out a living.  Perhaps their learning that burning our trash is a filthy solution because we throw in petroleum based crap that poisons the air all over again.  We need this kind of small but colossal thinking. 

https://fusiontables.google.com/DataSource?docid=1C-fn6nSe21acP0xJIO1T1x0wohqfMYCQyJjbqdk#rows:id=1 (https://fusiontables.google.com/DataSource?docid=1C-fn6nSe21acP0xJIO1T1x0wohqfMYCQyJjbqdk#rows:id=1)  The UK is 44th and the US is 25th.  How about thos scandinavians?  Now there are some heavy Java users.  Elon should start a coffee house chain with Tesla charging stations.  Of course this might be vertical monopoly and require a government study.

One of the interesting things I pick up in reading (Okay, the first couple of paragraphs) these many threads about change is the lack of a systems approach.  When change occurs, and it does all the time, is the failure to understand that real change is the result of many small changes to facilitate the new way of doing things.

The Hondas are small.  The same suit just doesn't fit everyone.  Smaller cars equal bigger roads.

The solar panels might provide enough energy to run HVAC needs of the trailer.  We need to stop looking for the Lone Ranger silver bullet solutions.  Polio vaccines are a once in a lifetime occurrence.   Did you know B. Franklin's son died of small pox motivating Ben to become very active in small pox vaccination programs in the early United states?  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/02/04/ben-franklin-lost-a-son-to-smallpox-heres-his-sobering-advice-to-parents-on-immunization/?utm_term=.c0e2f156a142 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/02/04/ben-franklin-lost-a-son-to-smallpox-heres-his-sobering-advice-to-parents-on-immunization/?utm_term=.c0e2f156a142)  Pretty interesting huh - How we have to go through the same old stuff so many times to get the message.  Polio still lives in a few countries that are religiously dominated. 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mike90045 on March 31, 2018, 12:00:40 AM
Here's an idea.
  Rechargeable on the fly, electric trains. 
 Put high voltage overhead lines in urban areas, (where here in USA, trains creep along at 10mph) and charge up battery banks, that then take over when out of the city.  Maybe leave a diesel/electric loco in the train for the long x-country hauls or hills
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: AdeV on March 31, 2018, 08:59:51 AM
Here's an idea.
  Rechargeable on the fly, electric trains. 
 Put high voltage overhead lines in urban areas, (where here in USA, trains creep along at 10mph) and charge up battery banks, that then take over when out of the city.  Maybe leave a diesel/electric loco in the train for the long x-country hauls or hills

Oddly enough, something like that (only without the rechargeable batteries) are being considered here in Blighty. Bi-modal trains, they're called; they can work off the electric catenary where it's present, and switch to diesel power where there's no overhead lines. Of course, the reason we need them here is because a bunch of railway upgrades have just been cancelled - including electrification of an old line - due to cost. £38 billion spent, and no end in sight... so I suppose it's hardly surprising.

Isn't the problem with US urban rail, the fact that the rails tend to be wobbly as hell due to to years of heat cycling, and if the train tried t go any faster it'd basically fall off?
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on March 31, 2018, 05:40:36 PM
Quite a few US financial media sources suggest that potential US electric car charging (at home) is being viewed as the potential savior of the power companies, so many are getting on the EV bandwagon.  It will be primarily a night time load so disfavors direct PV and favors their existing fossil fuel plants.

The current stats for the US are 29 miles a day, so the current ranges of electric cars are sufficient for many and few would be charging on the road.  Recharging while at work via parking lot PV works today for that, 300 watt hours per mile, 29 miles is 8.7KWH to be replaced daily and 1800W of panels (6-300 watt panels roughly 3x6 foot) could practically do that.   The need for fast charging is for exceptionally longer trips so that a gas vehicle isn't needed for the vacation or occasional weekend trip. It's a matter of statistics to make it work out well-  if the vast majority of charging can be done during direct PV time, this is a real boon in terms of fossil fuel reduction for the SW US.

It will be a battle of vested interests fighting it out.

The electric semi truck would be appropriate for trucked local delivery and transport.  They will have to have battery swapping as their power needs are great and down time for charging isn't OK.  Long haul obviously needs something more energy efficient like a modern fast rail with automated fast transfers of modular containers.

That will also be a battle. 










Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mike90045 on April 01, 2018, 04:55:26 AM
Isn't the problem with US urban rail, the fact that the rails tend to be wobbly as hell due to to years of heat cycling, and if the train tried t go any faster it'd basically fall off? 

No, it's because folks built housing right up to the tracks and then complained about the noisy trains.  So they slow them way down in the city,   and no noisy horns, or crossing bells, disturbs my beauty sleep.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 01, 2018, 04:54:02 PM
Plenty of good books have been written about how America go steered away from rail and into road freight by the usual mean$.  Those aging rails in urban areas are poorly maintained and could hardly carry a modern rail system.  Most Americans don't read,  and have never seen a modern high speed rail system.

Some recent news for US freight rail:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-csx-trade-cuts/trade-groups-call-on-u-s-to-investigate-csx-rail-disruptions-idUSKCN1AV1ZY

Some recent news for US passenger rail:
https://tedium.co/2017/04/25/amtrak-train-delay-history/

The sorry state of US rail doesn't seem to have anything to do with people living near the tracks complaining about noise.





Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: 32 coupe on April 01, 2018, 08:21:10 PM

Bruce got it right.

Ford, Firestone, as well as others, and the oil industries killed the
railroads in the states.

Big $$$ always wins.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mike90045 on April 02, 2018, 06:56:28 AM
Those dangerous trains must be stopped so that we can text
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq9srtsC990
   I came across this, not written by me:

This is a video I made in Lakeland Florida on the Kentucky Avenue railroad crossing in the no train horn town of a woman texting and walks right in to a CSX intermodal train. This video shows that Lakeland Florida has dangerous crossings due to the no train horn and no pedestrian gates in place. If there were a pedestrian gate this woman would never have been injured or possibly killed
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 02, 2018, 09:21:37 AM
The texting zombie apocalypse ?  Independent studies show your cell phone alters your brain waves,  opens your blood brain barrier.  The immediate direct effect is stimulatory at least initially, and probably accounts for the addictive behavior that sets in for some heavy users. 



 






Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: oldgoat on April 02, 2018, 10:58:45 AM
Darwin award entrants ?
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 03, 2018, 03:08:18 AM
Local rail transportation of goods failed because trucks are faster, cheaper, more flexible and deliver to any business's door.  Rail still exists for long haul of freight from shipping hub to hub.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 03, 2018, 03:31:23 AM
   Used nuclear fuel is loaded into concrete and steel flasks then welded shut . After 250 years the dose rate is less than 5 rem per hour contact.
   Today's used fuel works well in the next generation of molten salt reactors .
   Professional protestors make their livelyhood of scaring donations from the public they are scaring. With a vested interest what are the anti groups going to say. Anti vaccination, anti nuclear, anti wifi, anti meat, anti fluoride in the water, etc groups. They are a rallying point for the tin foil hat types who crave a crisis because they need  " Somebody is out to get them".  To obtain sympathy, political power, status , self worth etc.
   There is no use trying to use facts to change somebody's mind who is already made up. They just want attention and some excitement from a fight.
   If you want a long term health concern. How about toxic metals such as lead, cadmium, mercury etc.  Some nasty organic chemicals such as benzine , MEK or others. Or how about dioxins ? Then again these concerns are not sexy and exciting like nuclear.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 03, 2018, 05:01:32 AM
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nuclear-waste-lethal-trash-or-renewable-energy-source/

B&D you are making some very unusual claims. What nuclear power plant facility is disposing of it's spent fuel rods by mixing with concrete and welding in steel drums?

To the best of my knowledge this was proven ineffective over 35 years ago.  The concrete and steel decompose, as did the glass composite attempt.  Dilution and containment of particles is an was an ideal approach in concept in that water seepage would not carry particles and contamination to aquifer(s).  Not one of many materials promoted and tried for this worked. 

Spent fuel rods with thorium have a 10,000 year half life. 

To suggest that storage of radioactive waste is a simple issue belies the work of a lot of serious scientists and people that certainly aren't wearing tin hats, and have serious concerns.  These include people with serious educations and no financial interests. 

If you have some good sources to back up your claims, I'd love to read them. and so would the DOE, NRA and many more.











Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on April 03, 2018, 07:34:54 AM

Hey Glort

re this:

Your  "In NZ you pay road tax by mileage. Don't matter what fuel you are using, you pay to be on the road. They may choose to do it a variety of ways and I'm sure they will do whatever they thing extracts max $$.
[/quote]"

Actually no.  Here in our Paradise at the bottom of the world you pay Road User Charges ("RUCs") on diesel (and only on diesel) by the kilometre travelled; and the $$ rate per kilometre depends on the size of your vehicle - big trucks pay lots, small cars don't pay much

It is done this way because there's a great deal of diesel used in agriculture & industry (tractors, harvesters, logging gear etc) by machines which don't go on-road and so make no contribution to wear-and-tear on the roads, and so pay no RUCs.  Vehicles that do go on the road, and which do contribute to wear-and-tear, pay by the kilometre and have to buy their RUCs either on an automatic system or in advance

Other fuels (petrol, LPG etc) have a road tax component included in the price-per-litre or whatever.  The thinking is that petrol is used in "light-ish" vehicles which make a modest contribution to roading wear-and-tear etc (cars, utes, SUVs etc) so it's fair to tax them per litre.  The bigger your car, the more gas you use (loosely) and the more tax you pay

What this overlooks of course, is that the government - as governments are wont to do - takes, say, $0.40 per litre in tax, uses maybe  $0.20 of that on roading and diverts the rest into the general "consolidated fund"
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 03, 2018, 03:02:10 PM
You often get what you've paid for whether it's out of pocket cash or liens against your and others future.  There will always be sharks and folks that don't mind living in shit holes (just using my wonderful, brave, imaginative and very intelligent President's language).  If you want better stuff then just reach down into your pockets. 

Worried about an early death in the US.  The top three killers we kind of understand are cardiovascular, cancers and diabetes.  These three tragedies are a function of diet and lifestyle.  That makes premature death for most people a personal choice.  These choices may be state supported but they are still a matter of personal choice.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 03, 2018, 03:09:55 PM
 Used nuclear fuel is loaded into concrete and steel flasks then welded shut . After 250 years the dose rate is less than 5 rem per hour contact.  (http://Used nuclear fuel is loaded into concrete and steel flasks then welded shut . After 250 years the dose rate is less than 5 rem per hour contact.) I thought radiation half lives were measured in thousands of years? 

250 years.  That would mean that if George Washington and Thomas Jefferson had sealed something up it would now be down to 5 rems.  What is 5 rems?  What does it mean if you drink water that has a 5 rem radiation load?
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: oldgoat on April 03, 2018, 03:25:12 PM
Depends on which element or isotope you want to pick som e have very short half lives and some take 24000 years to decay to half life.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 03, 2018, 04:32:19 PM
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nuclear-waste-lethal-trash-or-renewable-energy-source/

B&D you are making some very unusual claims. What nuclear power plant facility is disposing of it's spent fuel rods by mixing with concrete and welding in steel drums?

To the best of my knowledge this was proven ineffective over 35 years ago.  The concrete and steel decompose, as did the glass composite attempt.  Dilution and containment of particles is an was an ideal approach in concept in that water seepage would not carry particles and contamination to aquifer(s).  Not one of many materials promoted and tried for this worked. 

Spent fuel rods with thorium have a 10,000 year half life. 

To suggest that storage of radioactive waste is a simple issue belies the work of a lot of serious scientists and people that certainly aren't wearing tin hats, and have serious concerns.  These include people with serious educations and no financial interests. 

If you have some good sources to back up your claims, I'd love to read them. and so would the DOE, NRA and many more.

I have no idea where where you developed the idea of mixing fuel
Rods with concrete.
   Read again . Placing used fuel bundles into steel and concrete flasks and welding them shut .
   Why are you talking about thorium?
    All isotopes have a half life and most elements have radioactive isotopes. Don’t blame me, it is the way the AllMighty made things .
  So what if the half life is 10,000 years . What is the half life of the soil around Elliot Lake ?
  Material with long half lives is rather benign and interactive . It is the isotopes with a short half life that emit alpha, beta and gamma of any concern. Short lived isotopes decay down to stable elements in just hours weeks a decades . Any idea how many rem from a fuel bundle just removed from the reactor vs the same bundle in just 250years.
   If you want radiation to worry about, check your own basement for Alpha . Naturally occurring from within the earth. No reactor required .
   
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 03, 2018, 04:36:33 PM
The problem is here that the general public knows so little about nuclear power that telling them facts leaves them more confused then prior to the explanation.
  I bought my farm and house within sight of an operating nuclear power plant and I  don’t worry about it. I would not purchase down wind and downstream of a chemical refinery or smelter yet that doesn’t bother the majority of the same population that panic when they hear nuclear .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 03, 2018, 04:42:18 PM
Depends on which element or isotope you want to pick som e have very short half lives and some take 24000 years to decay to half life.

If the isotope has a half life of 24,000 years , don’t worry about it. The decays per second is too low to give any measurable dose .
  Anyone ever research how much does aircraft pilots and passengers receive? Or the locals in areas where Uranium and thorium deposits are on the surface ? http://hps.org/documents/uranium_fact_sheet.pdf
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 03, 2018, 06:37:23 PM
The presently used on-site dry cask storage is a temporary measure only, since no permanent storage system exists.  No one considers this a permanent solution, not even the industry. 

Concrete and/or glass composite encapsulation methods were attempts at creating a stable watertight mass that could be safely buried for thousands of years.  The mix was to dilute the material and add mass such that heat levels were reasonable. They were some of the many failed approaches funded by the DOE,  after I was taught about them  in engineering school in 1975.

Dismissing long term hard radiation sources as a non issue is certainly a novel and original perspective.

I agree that barring a catastrophic failure, you are safer near a presently operating nuclear plant than downwind of a chemical plant, and that most toxic sources of chronic health problems are foolishly ignored.  Not so in hundreds or 1000 years when the water supply is contaminated... that's the whole point of long term storage.













Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 04, 2018, 02:49:05 AM
The presently used on-site dry cask storage is a temporary measure only, since no permanent storage system exists.  No one considers this a permanent solution, not even the industry. 

Concrete and/or glass composite encapsulation methods were attempts at creating a stable watertight mass that could be safely buried for thousands of years.  The mix was to dilute the material and add mass such that heat levels were reasonable. They were some of the many failed approaches funded by the DOE,  after I was taught about them  in engineering school in 1975.

Dismissing long term hard radiation sources as a non issue is certainly a novel and original perspective.

I agree that barring a catastrophic failure, you are safer near a presently operating nuclear plant than downwind of a chemical plant, and that most toxic sources of chronic health problems are foolishly ignored.  Not so in hundreds or 1000 years when the water supply is contaminated... that's the whole point of long term storage.

  Long term storage would be in a DGR. Far below the water table in seismically stable non porous rock.
   The used fuel is too value to "get rid of".  Used PWR fuel works just fine in molten salt reactors.
  The concept of waiting for anything radioactive to decay to "nothing" is just a scare tactic from the anti nuc types. How low do you want this nuclear material to decay down to? You had better start worrying then about all the uranium naturally occurring in the soil. Don't go too near the granite counter top in the wife's kitchen , it is radioactive too. So is Aunt Mildred's false teeth and Coleman lamp angles. So are ordinary tungsten grinding wheels. 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 04, 2018, 12:13:32 PM
  Long term storage would be in a DGR. Far below the water table in seismically stable non porous rock.
   The used fuel is too value to "get rid of".  Used PWR fuel works just fine in molten salt reactors.
  The concept of waiting for anything radioactive to decay to "nothing" is just a scare tactic from the anti nuc types. How low do you want this nuclear material to decay down to? You had better start worrying then about all the uranium naturally occurring in the soil. Don't go too near the granite counter top in the wife's kitchen , it is radioactive too. So is Aunt Mildred's false teeth and Coleman lamp angles. So are ordinary tungsten grinding wheels.

Please Just stop talking your Biased shit.

Clearly you are a disciple of the nuke industry and will spin doctor any ridiculous crap to protect the hand that feeds you.
If you do have any knowledge whatso ever as you profess, You well and truly know that comparing radiation from counter tops and false teeth to hot particles emitted from Nuke accidents is more pure and utter Bullshit.
For you to even try an compare natural and background radiation to the hot particles and other emissions that occour in nuke accidents with the unlimited contamination such disasters produce is a conscious and calculated LIE your part.

You may get away with it with some people but for others that are more knowledgeable than convenient for your garbage, it reallysays a lot about your lack of personal integrity and honesty.
Your position is typical of the Nuke industry.  Nothing but lies and BS designed to cover up the catastrophe of a criminal industry and the incredible danger it poses to mankind in the name of profit.

You sell out your own integrity and the health and well being of everyone and everything else on the planet including that of your own family.
I can hold no respect for anyone that cannot even be true to themselves and if you try to argue you are, then I can hold no respect for someone so gullible, ignorant and easily bought off.



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 04, 2018, 01:49:40 PM

Up Here in the playground of Oz, The Mrs and I went to the most upmarket shopping centre in the country. All the big names are there, Gucci, Prada, Tiffany &Co...... The stuff in Bvlgari is incredible, and down the end of the corridor of the most expensive brands in the world, there was Tesla.

Bit surprised the P100D sitting there with the gull wings open was attended by a couple of young Kids. The personable young man I spoke to clearly didn't know as much about the thing as I did which is a real worry given they are trying to flog a car which is $170K+.

Certainly is something to see these cars in the flesh.  I don't know how big they make garages in the US but there would be VERY few garages here with enough space to open the rear doors of one of these things.
The other thing is the apparent Complexity.  The BMW I'm driving is bad enough as is the Mercedes but the Tesla looks to be something on a whole different level. I would be accused as being old fashioned but there is something beneficial about turning a knob to get the AC or the wipers working instead of scrolling menus and tapping screens.  Pretty sure the attention with the " analogue" method is a lot less leaving more for driving the vehicle.

The other thing that strikes me is these cars that are supposed to be so enviromental are so large.  I understand not all electrics are but physics are the same. Bigger cars, more weight, more energy of any type  to propel them..... and the often single occupant.

They are still concerned up here about having sufficient power. One can see the limitations of solar when Sitting here watching the opening of the commonwealth games about 5KM away from where I am right now and the power being pumped into that, the rest of the coast and seeing how crap the weather has been the last week.  Minimal solar generation in a place famous for its good weather. Goes to show even if you can generate it with solar and store it somehow, you are still going to have a backup for when it rains.... like it has here virtually everyday for the last 6 weeks.

Again, Multiply Current demand and projections for growth by a factor or 4-6X, we better hope the oil lasts a good while yet because there is no way to convert the vehicle fleet to electric in anywhere near the ambitious time the environmentalists and PC crowd wants.



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 04, 2018, 01:53:12 PM
Amazing how those outside of the nuclear industry know more about it than those who have educated , trained and working in the nuclear industry for decades .
   Have you researched actual deaths caused by radiation ? Have you researched deaths by CO , H2S, lead, mercury etc?
   Explain how the residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki survive onngeoujs zero of atomic bomb blasts.
   What is so different between industrial radiation and natural background radiation . Do you know how much lung cancer is caused by Alpha particles in homes?
   Then again some people hear “nuclear” and they go into 100% denial mode and won’t even consider facts .
   
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 04, 2018, 02:26:21 PM

I don't have to taste shit to know it tastes bad and I can smell it when someone is shoveling like you are.

Typical Nike industry Vested industry Spin doctoring. Just because you have Drunk the cool aide and been brain washed, does not mean everyone else has.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: cujet on April 04, 2018, 02:57:33 PM
(https://memeguy.com/photos/images/pic-1-charging-his-electric-vehicle-226450.jpg)
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 04, 2018, 06:49:54 PM
I think these last few contributions have been really informative.  I don't know anything more than I did before but I'm sure better informed.   ;D

What I really like are the arguments about solar and wind that use much the same attitude as the arguments about nuclear whether it's for or against.  Again, I warn you about the real dangers we all face.  Meats and meat byproducts (from wild caught fish to grass feed beef), dairy stuff and all sugars.  These seemingly innocent lifestyle choices almost universally have greater impact on your life expectancy than all the nuclear plants in the world.

Why is it that only the blind can clearly see?  Yes, the Tesla is a large car.  No, it's not in my price point.  I can park my 64 Morris Cooper S in just about any garage.  (That's the old hidden brag.)  That is if it were running.  (The truth.)  I've driven the BMW I3 and thought it a really nice car.  Not cheap but a really nice car with sensible proportions.

This is going to be an interesting year for cars with power cords.  We'll be making some big decisions in the next two to five years.  My favorite bumper sticker.  It was on a mature and well used Ford Bronco.  "Get In.  Set Down.  Hold on.  Shut Up.  And Listen."

Musk is an extraordinary person and has changed the course of human endeavor.  You may not care for the altered direction of the canoe nor be comfortable with the current in this new stream but Wow! what a fantastic ride.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 04, 2018, 10:13:52 PM
I loved the photo of the generator-trailer charging the electric car.   Something like one of the Honda quiet inverter-generators combined with a super lightweight mini camper will no doubt be on the road within the next 10 years.  If you could get the engine quiet enough to sleep with, (maybe a detaching roll away muffling box) you could have 8 hrs of charging for that road trip in the back woods where no power hookups were possible, plus a pop-top lightweight trailer to sleep in. 












Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 05, 2018, 12:07:01 AM

I don't have to taste shit to know it tastes bad and I can smell it when someone is shoveling like you are.

Typical Nike industry Vested industry Spin doctoring. Just because you have Drunk the cool aide and been brain washed, does not mean everyone else has.

       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose             
       Considering the cost to mankind in illness, injuries and death in all the known energy sector.  Nuclear still has the best safety record of all.
    Why let nuclear bombs be a deterrent to nuclear reactors ?  People fear arson, forest fires or building fires. Yet they don't think twice about the same fire on a cigarette , camp fires, home furnace or inside an engine.   
      Reminds me of my Great Uncle who refused to switch from horses to tractors. Or my Amish neighbours who know that us English are going to h#ll for "being of the world" and using technology. 
     Some paraphrased quotes here. "Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not . Understanding cannot be forced on someone who chooses to be ignorant."
    Still haven't heard back on what your plans are to stop this terrible  nuclear radiation from natural occurring sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_radiation
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 05, 2018, 02:18:15 AM
I'm thinking nuclear is about over.  Unless these much smaller plants catch on there simply won't be much new construction or planning for the big ones that are now filling in where an alternative just wasn't a real consideration a few years ago.  Now that solar and wind are getting cheaper nuclear just isn't in consideration.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 05, 2018, 03:08:04 AM
I agree Casey, no matter what the enthusiasts say, the nuclear power industry has shot itself in both legs with cost (and time) of construction and service life.  Not one nuclear plant has ever built built on time and projected costs have always been fantasy figures.  Westinghouse was the last big US nuclear plant builder and they just went bankrupt.

The good point B&D made  is that the true health risks and other costs of other power plants aren't great either...but that's why the rest of the world has been shifting to wind and solar ASAP.

I do like nuclear molten salts-  but I prefer "fusion at a distance" (solar) as the way to do that at least here in the SW.
Much more the kind of thing I would trust the better than average Joe to build and operate.  We all get cavalier about things we work with daily for a long time, it's just the way our wetware works. 

China has the first large modern design fission molten salt system scheduled to be on line around 2024. We'll see how that works out for them, though it will be difficult to get real cost and operation data from China.  Using spent fuel rods would be great but every single promise of such a thing in the last 50 years has so far proven to be vaporware; and the NRC has not approved a single fuel reprocessing plant in the US. 

Continuing operation of our existing nuclear plants to the end of their safe service life seems both likely and wise at this point.

I just hope safety oversight won't get lax.   Our Palo Verde plant upwind of me in AZ has had a long history of bad marks on NRC safety inspections and long delays in making corrections. There were some questions raised from retired NRC experts in the last year over a failed backup generator (blew up on testing) where they continued operations anyway and eventually got an NRC "exemption" despite clear rules that 2 regularly tested, backup generators to run the cooling pumps are required or the plant must start shut down procedures.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: M61hops on April 05, 2018, 09:43:59 AM
I would like to have an electric car that I could charge from solar panels on my carport roof or from the Listeroid on a cold night.  A Chevy Volt would work for me but I keep hoping that they will make a van or mini-van version and I'd be all in on that one.  I don't have to drive very far or often most of the time so would only run a few hundred gallons of gas per year through a Volt engine.  Almost bought a used Prius a while back and was going to double or triple the battery pack until I saw how many computers run the car so I'm holding off.  The truth is I'm driving the wood burning stove of the automotive world, MB240D and 300D's and they will probably last me the rest of my life.  I'm content to be a Luddite and would be happy to have Amish neighbors!  I doubt that if the entire life cycle cost of any Nuclear Waste making Station is considered the amount of power it made won't cover the costs imposed on present and future generations.  A giant swindle on the human race by the military industrial complex.  And yes, I liked what George Carlin says.  I think somebody might notice when the Pacific Ocean is dead, the background radiation where I live has doubled to 45CPM since Fukushima and I consider myself lucky that it's so low so far.  Can anybody on this site tell me if Oz has noticed any extra radiation?  I've considered moving there to flee Fukushima but I'm not sure it's worth the bother at 63.  If I was younger and wanted to have kids I'd head South for sure.  I need to re-roof the barn and I'm thinking maybe the 35 year shingles are a waste of money!   Leland
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: oldgoat on April 05, 2018, 03:09:21 PM
I think a trip to google to find out the types of radiation emitted and the dangers thereoff would take some of the fire out of the discussion.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 05, 2018, 05:18:23 PM
I'm thinking nuclear is about over.  Unless these much smaller plants catch on there simply won't be much new construction or planning for the big ones that are now filling in where an alternative just wasn't a real consideration a few years ago.  Now that solar and wind are getting cheaper nuclear just isn't in consideration.

This I thankfully agree with.

Apart from anything else, solar and wind is flavour of the month and the favored approach which will be supported at all levels.  Building a nuke plant will cause nothing but grief and I can't see any politician backing it and I can't see there being enough grease in existence to sufficiently lubricate their palms.

As for charging an electric on a regular basis from a generator..... Basic law of Physics, Every time you convert energy, You loose  some...... Or in the case of turning fossil fuel to power to charge a battery for an electric car, You loose a heck of a lot. 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 06, 2018, 04:32:27 AM
At present, the solar-molten salt storage approach looks promising and there are quite a few 100 megawatt scale molten salt projects around the world working since 2009.  No new tech for the generation plant, it's still a steam turbine, so water use is still an issue.

www.solarreserve.com/en/technology/molten-salt-energy-storage 

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 06, 2018, 06:50:00 AM

 When you say " water use is an issue" is that from a practical, supply POV where the plants tend to be located which seems to be dessert regions or from what is the position of the environmentalists that using water for anything is wrong and every drop has to be " saved".

Still trying to figure what they are saving it from and what they are going to do with it once it is all saved up and reserves filled.

Where I am atm they are releasing water from dams and have been for months but there are still stupid " save water" messages on buses and billboards.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 06, 2018, 05:52:55 PM
The water use by steam turbine power plants is substantial-  a non-issue for some locations, but sometimes a serious issue in desert areas, where you might like to locate solar heliostat/molten salt plants.  No different than for a coal plant.  There are ways to reduce water use dramatically but it is always an issue for everything except pure PV. 

The 773 Megawatt Coronado coal fired plant near me in St. Johns, AZ (completed in 1980) had quite a debacle when they found the local ground water of such poor quality (highly mineralized, full of radon, and corrosive) they couldn't use it.  They have pumping stations and pipes that extend 30 miles to suck ground water from elsewhere, including 1/2 mile from my home.  It is solely owned by Salt River Project and I can't find water use data- a sore subject as our aquifer is also being used faster than it's replacement.

Palo Verde (3.3 Gigawatts) is the largest nuclear plant in the US.  It operates on treated Phoenix "waste water", which is no small feat.  Every other plant in the world is near a river or large body of water.  It uses 20 billion gallons per year, which accounts for 25% of the "overdraft" on groundwater in the Phoenix area.  The overuse of ground water grossly in excess of it's natural replacement is a very serious issue in the southwest.  It's one of those "screw the grandkids" kind of situations.

The future of the SW US will largely be dependent on water, and the piper will have to be paid.  It makes water use an important consideration in planning for future power generation.  It's a real issue here in the SW, not greenwashed foolishness.




Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 06, 2018, 07:24:18 PM
Nice link to the basics about salt based power plants.  So here's an educational moment and one that I've wondered about since I saw my first cooling tower.

If these plants are making steam to turn the turbines WHY do they need to cool the water only to re-heat it again?
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 06, 2018, 07:32:12 PM
Water Conservation and the routine of living:

I think we still pound the drum of water conservation even when the reservoirs are full because we have been brainwashed into believing that there just might be another drought in the future.  Another demonstration of how stupid the democratically elected leaders are in the "Free World".  To actually believe that there will be another drought.  WTF?  Do they believe we live in East Africa or something?

As a friends grandmother used to say as we left the house to play; "Habits are a Pleasure To Do!"
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 07, 2018, 12:23:26 AM
I agree Casey, no matter what the enthusiasts say, the nuclear power industry has shot itself in both legs with cost (and time) of construction and service life.  Not one nuclear plant has ever built built on time and projected costs have always been fantasy figures.  Westinghouse was the last big US nuclear plant builder and they just went bankrupt.

The good point B&D made  is that the true health risks and other costs of other power plants aren't great either...but that's why the rest of the world has been shifting to wind and solar ASAP.

I do like nuclear molten salts-  but I prefer "fusion at a distance" (solar) as the way to do that at least here in the SW.
Much more the kind of thing I would trust the better than average Joe to build and operate.  We all get cavalier about things we work with daily for a long time, it's just the way our wetware works. 

China has the first large modern design fission molten salt system scheduled to be on line around 2024. We'll see how that works out for them, though it will be difficult to get real cost and operation data from China.  Using spent fuel rods would be great but every single promise of such a thing in the last 50 years has so far proven to be vaporware; and the NRC has not approved a single fuel reprocessing plant in the US. 

Continuing operation of our existing nuclear plants to the end of their safe service life seems both likely and wise at this point.

I just hope safety oversight won't get lax.   Our Palo Verde plant upwind of me in AZ has had a long history of bad marks on NRC safety inspections and long delays in making corrections. There were some questions raised from retired NRC experts in the last year over a failed backup generator (blew up on testing) where they continued operations anyway and eventually got an NRC "exemption" despite clear rules that 2 regularly tested, backup generators to run the cooling pumps are required or the plant must start shut down procedures.

  The Chinese and Korean Candu 600 plants were build on budget and on time. In the west politicians/lawyers milk the system to fill their pockets.
   it is not technical issues stopping the build of new units. It is the lack of political will.
   The glut of  power occurring  spring and fall when heating and cooling loads are minimal . And when wind + solar power combined generation are highest. This depresses the wholesale price of power paid to nuclear producers who used to pay the bills with Mon-Fri daytime peak rates.  Even with the reduction of wholesale electrical rates. The retail price of power has increased due to the subsidies paid to wind, solar and some gas plants.   
   Politicians only think as far ahead as the next election. The average citizen who has no idea where the sources of food, power, water and raw materials. They vote based on the trendy fads they hear as they don't want to be mocked for being unpopular. 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 07, 2018, 12:32:49 AM
  It is less trouble to build 500KV AC or a high voltage DC power transmission line than it is to build a power plant away from sufficient cooling water. 
   Cooling towers waste a lot of water from evaporation . Plus the sight of the cooling towers scare the daylights out of the general public . As they consider anything out of a stack as "pollution".
     Always wondered why two power plants on the Saint Clair River between Lake Huron and Lake Erie. The Canadian side withdrew cooling water from the river and returned the water 3-4 degrees warmer. In the over all average temperature of the river , the increase was about nill.
    Yet on the shores of the same river on the US side in Michigan. The power plant used cooling towers. Go figure ???
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 07, 2018, 01:05:54 AM
Casey, not sure if you're serious but the answer is, the exhaust steam is much lower pressure than that needed to spin the turbines.  There are schemes to recapture the energy in the "waste" steam.  Recapturing more of the water is done based on the local water situation. It takes massive condensers and more energy. 

If only we had 100 gigawatt hour batteries for direct PV to battery storage.  For now they are relatively small and viable for peak shaving only.  Thus the molten salt approach becomes appealing since solar conversion to heat is about 80% efficient instead of 17% for PV and storing of molten salt is a relatively low tech way of storing massive energy. 

The 750 MW Springerville, AZ plant has had some big upgrades just a few years ago; again, no river or large body of water.  TEP and SRP power companies will keep it going, they say. 

The Springerville,  Coranado, and Cholla plants were all located in rural areas with rail access to the 4 Corners area coal mines.

We also had a paper mill running entirely on pumped groundwater outside Snowflake AZ, operating for about 55 years-  pumping ground water and pouring their waste in large ponds...and thus polluting the aquifer all the way to Holbrook.  Go figure.

The water rights laws in the western US are bizarre... in Phoenix farmers were/are pumping groundwater from 1000 feet depth, from a 2000 year old aquifer no longer being replaced for flood irrigating low value crops such as cotton. 

 











Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 07, 2018, 09:58:02 AM
I'm still waiting for HELCO to phone to let me know that my 20KW battery system is ready for installation.  That's part of my dream program where the progressive utility corporations start beefing up neighborhood grids.  You know, making the paperwork easier.  Providing design support.  Financing plant and equipment.  They are going to be selling power from my batteries just as surely as they sell power from residential PV systems that are installed today.  100% per day with net due in 30 days as well.  What a sweet deal.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 07, 2018, 05:26:37 PM
We'll be waiting a long time for power companies to begin acting in the best interests of the public instead of their own profits. 

I thought B&D's comment about "lack of political will" was a hoot.  I heard the same power co. propaganda as a naive young lad in engineering school, relative to the lack of radioactive waste disposal/storage.  In 1975 and 18 years old, I believed it.

This article helps clarify that and the reality of nuclear power economics:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2014/02/20/why-the-economics-dont-favor-nuclear-power-in-america/#4576a4ee470b

Meanwhile, we do have a sustained fusion reactor with a long history of reliability; look up at noon. 




Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 07, 2018, 08:49:29 PM
Okay.  I've been over at YouTube-U and see lots of articles on how cooling towers work but none of them explain why the water needs to be cooled down before it's heated back up to super steam.  I just don't get it.  Would someone take a minute and tell me where to go?  That's a place where I might learn the "Why?" of cooling the water.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 08, 2018, 12:13:19 AM
Casey, if you are talking about steam turbine water supply,  the steam needs to be cooled so that water will condense.  Cooling that water futher is counterproductive.  A heat pump can be used to capture  the steam heat energy to be reused to boil the water again.  It's more energy efficient to generate the high pressure steam by boiling water than it is to run an air compressor to compress the old low pressure steam.

Cooling towers are used for chilling (cooling) water and getting rid of waste heat that can't be practically reused.  They would not be used for the boiler water supply as that would be counter productive.

Cooling towers (water falls down, air is sometimes forced upwards) can approach the wet bulb temperature; in dry climates about 20F below ambient air temperature.  I built a 16 foot tall test tower coveted with a tarp for an experiment on water chilling for house cooling via in floor pex.  Alas, when the night time temperatures are at their lowest prior to sunrise, the humidity is at it's highest so performance was disappointing and I couldn't get the 55F- ish water I was hoping for.  If I had been smarter I would have just done wet bulb testing every couple hours through the night. (wet fabric over spinning bulb of thermometer).

Trickling water down barely sloped steel roof panels worked better with less energy due to night sky radiation (10F below ambient), with bonus evaporative cooling with any wind.  The water only has to be lifted a few feet so Lang D5 pump can be used.  Alas, without wind, I need a LOT of roof panel surface area; a minimum of about the square footage of the super insulated house to be cooled (1100 SF). There is no free lunch.







 





Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: M61hops on April 08, 2018, 02:03:14 AM
Good question Casey.  The way I understand it is that energy flows downhill such as from hot to cold to start with.  They say that heat is motion so heat is pumped into water until the molecules are moving very fast and pushing hard on the inside of the container it's in like the boiler and pipes.  There are formulas that express the direct relationship between pressure and temperature, all that pesky detail stuff called laws of physics.  A power plant has a mostly closed loop where the high temp and pressure steam pushes on the turbine blades doing work but losing a bit of heat and pressure as it passes through each stage of the turbine.  After many stages of pushing on the blades the water molecules have slowed and cooled down to where the pressure is reduced and the steam is in danger of condensing back into liquid water that would be rough on the blades if it struck them.  A drop of water turned to steam occupies something crazy like 1700 times the volume of space so it's kind of hard to pump steam back uphill so to speak to the boiler especially when it wants to turn back to water as the temperature and pressure is lost.  Plus I think that if you compress steam you can turn it back to water according to the pressures and temps.  Somebody made up these crazy rules for how matter behaves in this dimension but it's very handy that the rules have a consistency to them most of the time so we can get predictable results.  I think that it's just a matter of being able to handle the water molecules in an efficient enough manner as they go around the loop, pumping a little volume of water gets you a large volume of steam after you add heat.  The massive amount of energy involved with changing the state of water from liquid to steam and back again is a kink in this process and I suspect that is why you are asking the question.  If you could skip the phase change steps at each end and just shove the steam right back into the boiler and reheat it I'd think it would be more efficient.  But the main thing that drives the turbine is the pressure difference between inlet and outlet and condensing the steam greatly reduces the pressure on the low pressure side of the loop.  Seems like maybe you could use the steam leaving the turbine to boil Freon or ammonia and run some of the plant machinery off a smaller steam engine system loop rather than dumping the heat from condensation, but maybe not worth it in the overall energy flow.  To me it seems that if you want 1000 Megawatts out of a fission power plant you have to make 3000 Megawatts of heat.  It would be nice to use all the heat to do something useful although heating the night air could be considered useful in some circumstances.  I used to live 30 miles downwind from a Nuke plant and on some cold nights I could feel a warm fog coming from the power plant.  The homes that heated with heat pumps were pretty efficient compared to homes on the upwind side of the valley!  The power company relocated some vent lines from the cooling towers to a purpose built tower so they could point at the cooling towers and truthfully say that no radiation was coming out of those towers.  That was about the time that I was starting to think that Nuke plants were not the best way to make electricity.  The big fusion reactor in the sky seems to be very reliable and somewhat safe... so far.  :-\
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 08, 2018, 09:49:24 AM
Would someone take a minute and tell me where to go? 

There are many times when you get on your sarcastic high horse that doesn't befit you  i'd love to tell you where to go but I refrain.

I'm guessing like many you are concerned it is some massive waste of energy to condense the steam before reheating.

It's not.

Even if you cool the water down to ambient, lets say 20o so it's water not steam, You would be giving up 80oC max. As steam, the water runs many hundreds of degrees initially and is in fact true dry steam which is invisible and very high pressure.  If you kept the steam as wet steam and raised the temp, you would not get the expansion you get going from water. I don't know the numbers but I do know the energy lost in cooling the water back to liquid would be a hell of a lot less than the energy invested trying to pump and reheat steam that would have a lot less expansion and therefore efficiency.

You are probably giving up less then 50oC from the initial 300+? the steam was initially at.  The steam has already had all the work taken out of it, from there it's just water vapor at a temp that no more useful work can be extracted. Rather than trying to deal with that, easier just to change it back to liquid and go from there.

Some places in Europe that burn municipal waste to generate power close to the consumers often use this very low grade energy for heating buildings and pools etc.

That's about all water vapour is good for on an industrial scale.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 08, 2018, 06:31:58 PM
We'll be waiting a long time for power companies to begin acting in the best interests of the public instead of their own profits. 

I thought B&D's comment about "lack of political will" was a hoot.  I heard the same power co. propaganda as a naive young lad in engineering school, relative to the lack of radioactive waste disposal/storage.  In 1975 and 18 years old, I believed it.

This article helps clarify that and the reality of nuclear power economics:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2014/02/20/why-the-economics-dont-favor-nuclear-power-in-america/#4576a4ee470b

Meanwhile, we do have a sustained fusion reactor with a long history of reliability; look up at noon.

There are no technical issues storing waste . The problem is politicians who are afraid of non technical voters who have been frightened by special interest groups . The people in the anti nuc organizations make their income by scaring cash out of middle aged grandmothers who have been frightened about the grand babies future .
  Then there are the consulting firms that make fortunes by only pushing paper.  They don’t want any construction go aheads as them they will be out of work.
   Uranium and thorium came out of the ground in the first place . What is wrong with putting it back.
   Some people are as convinced about nuclear as I am about liver and onions .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 08, 2018, 07:52:17 PM
Thanks for the help with Why we need cooling towers and lots of reserve water to run steam plants. 

So how about the future of electric vehicles?

I spent two hours chasing down a really neat three wheel roadster Friday only to discover it was powered by a two stroke.  From super clean to the dirtiest in one utterance of "Huh".

Have you seen the Edison 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMWveqqMUY0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMWveqqMUY0)  Cleaver way of getting around the safety stuff "real" cars face.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 08, 2018, 10:55:02 PM

So how about the future of electric vehicles?

Right now they are an over hyped impractical idea pushed by car makers looking to stir the market and the environmentalists whom want everything done to their appeasement today.  Electrics may have a future but not until many issues are solved and the infrastructure of modern living is adapted to suit them.

To try and rush them into mainstream use will be a severe mistake and probably won't happen anyway as there is not the power in the grids to support them on wide scale use and won't be for some time to come. Like everything else, the introduction of electrics won't be about saving the planet, it will be about making money and until more money can be made from electrics than oil, they won't happen from that POV alone.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 09, 2018, 01:45:47 PM
Thanks for the help with Why we need cooling towers and lots of reserve water to run steam plants. 

So how about the future of electric vehicles?

I spent two hours chasing down a really neat three wheel roadster Friday only to discover it was powered by a two stroke.  From super clean to the dirtiest in one utterance of "Huh".

Have you seen the Edison 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMWveqqMUY0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMWveqqMUY0)  Cleaver way of getting around the safety stuff "real" cars face.

Modern direct injection two strokes meet and exceed emissions regulations . In common use on boats, snowmobiles and ATVs.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 09, 2018, 01:53:23 PM
There is no practical way to exceed approx 50% thermal efficiency . The metal becomes more expensive to purchase and expensive to manufacture for high temperatures . Even exotic alloys erode or corrode . Efficiency comes from a greater delta T of the steam between the primary turbine first row of blades and the last row of blades in the secondary turbine.  prior to the steam entering the condensers .
  There is not way around the thermal loss with change  of state from steam back to water . Well except on Star a trek and it has to be true as we see them do it on TV.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: AdeV on April 09, 2018, 10:15:55 PM
  The Chinese and Korean Candu 600 plants were build on budget and on time. In the west politicians/lawyers milk the system to fill their pockets. 

I don't know about Korea, but China can do a lot of things cheaply, because Health & Safety (OSHA, whatever) take a back-seat when it comes to Getting It Done. Human life in China is very much a secondary consideration (if it's considered at all) in industry. I suppose when you've got the thick end of a billion workers, most of who live in abject poverty and would welcome any job, especially one which pays well (by Chinese standards - most of us Westerners wouldn't get out of bed for the sort of salaries the Chinese offer) on account it's risky, then why bother trying to protect them?
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 09, 2018, 11:53:44 PM
In this Wikipedia article, under Economics, the heavy water CANDU designs are presented as an economic bust. 
This older design is used where unenriched fuel must be used for security/proliferation issues.  The fuel section covers more about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANDU_reactor

The cost of power produced was substantially higher than coal or hydro.
An exerpt from the economic section in the link above:

"Based on Ontario's record, the economic performance of the CANDU system is quite poor. Although much attention has been focussed on the problems with the Darlington plant, every CANDU design in Ontario went over budget by at least 25%, and average over 150% higher than estimated.[67] Darlington was the worst, at 350% over budget"

Back to cars-  electric cars will be very popular as soon as the price comes down a bit, despite Glort's dislike and my concern about raising daily EMF exposure for the public, and I think that will happen in the next 4 years. Both Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf should be popular in the US.  Charging is a non issue for the consumer with home off peak charging with a range of 200 miles and daily average in the US under 40 miles. Charging by coal does nothing for CO2 reduction, obviously, but it's a good base load for nuclear power, today.  The improvement in air quality could save a lot of money for health costs as well.



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 10, 2018, 01:32:47 AM

Been looking at some YT vids.
There are a lot more people in the know saying electrics are not at all the great thing for the environment they are made out to be and why and also a lot more raising the power supply and emissions from that concerns.

Pretty obvious, unless the power put into the things is 100% renewable ( as in solar)  then they are just going to be using fossil fuel for the main part somewhere further down the line. Several vids I watched also raised the point that the emissions in making an electric with it's lithium battery is FAR greater than with a conventional vehicle.

Always the way. Whenever something is new and particularly when it's pushed as being green, the hype is spin doctored in a completely biased view to hide the ( many) negatives and skew things to look all fine and rosy.
And the worst part is people fall for it and never do any research beyond the fictitious headlines.

On another forum I had a bet that electrics would not represent the majority of the private/ car vehicle fleet in the next 20 years.
Was pretty funny as the predictable green washed members jumped in to rubbish that position and then the best they could come up with was there -Might- be 20% of cars on the road being electrics on that time.  Well, majority to me is 51%+ and 20% is a significant MINORITY.
Predictably the opposition to my wager fell off very quickly when even by their own supporting numbers, they  could not show my position was incorrect.

Maybe in 50 years the majority of cars on the roads ( or in the air) might be electric but to me that's far too  long away to be so hyped up about now.
I also think in 50 years there will be some other technology that will make the whole concept of cars as we know them obselete. We may be teleporting around and we may be using some other energy source that isn't even discovered now.

Actually more I think about it, the less I believe electrics will ever be the dominant road transport form of power.
Might be a bit of a distraction in the middle but mainstream, I certainly won't live near long enough to see it even if it does happen.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 10, 2018, 01:45:33 AM
      The price of power from Darlington , Pickering and the Bruce was on par with coal fossil. The exorbitant retail price in Ontario is paying for subsidized wind, solar , gas , native partnered hydraulic and to pay the US to take surplus off peak power.   
     Darlington's cost over run was not 350%. The problem is a OPG capital generation project is not paid from reserve funds or operating fund budgets  during construction.
   All construction money is borrowed,  accumulating compound interest.  Until years later when the generating station is commissioned, THEN the payments are started on principal plus the accumulated compound interest. Remember interest rates in the early 1980's ?
       With the long lead time of months and years to manufacture components such as Heat Transport Pumps, boilers, pressure tubes, calandra parts, pretty much everything. The manufactures are paid on the contract's delivery date, no matter if the plant is ready for the components or not. When construction was frozen for 18 months, the penalties, fees and high interest rates snowballed.   
     A certain liberal Premier froze the Darlington construction while interest rates were over 20%. And when jobs were needed the most. If you want someone to blame.........there you go.
    As for Pickering restart in the late 1990's, Bruce units 1 & 2 and now Darlington.  OPG and Bruce power are doing the work "the American way" with outside contractors. There should be people doing jail time for what went on. btw the same cost overruns occur in hydraulic , fossil and transmission, not just Nuclear. Nuclear just gets the headlines.
   From the early to late 1980's . The Pickering A unit 2  retube was done from scratch, without tooling, spare parts or a plan with full time OPG staff and OPG construction . It took 2-1/2 years to return Unit #2 to service. By the 4th unit's retube, it took 9 months from main breaker open to main breaker close.
   How many years did it take Bruce 1 & 2 retube when they went into it with years of planning with external contractors. 7 years of filling offshore bank accounts in shady deals.   
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 10, 2018, 01:56:22 AM
    The Candu design with it's high neutron efficiency and ability to thermally moderate neutrons was chosen for a couple of reasons.
   The previously mentioned ability to use natural fuel without the complications of enriching fuel.
   The ability to run on Thorium, MOX fuel and left over fuel from PWR reactors that a PWR and PBWR couldn't even maintain a chain reaction with . All without complex and expensive enrichment.
   The Candu with it's large and less concentrated core. Along with only a modest amount of positive reactivity vs an enriched PWR. It is like comparing a team of oxen vs a team of race horses. The Candu can't run away very far or very fast.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 10, 2018, 03:12:20 AM
Good points on what happens when financing a huge capital project that runs long over schedule and runs into inflation and high interest rates.  Alas, these Ontario CANDU plants were all  the same design so it's pretty damning, economically.  The fuel flexibility and slower development of critical problems in CANDU are certainly big pluses. 

The Bruce Nuclear Generating Station is very impressive and I see that the major planned refurbishment starting in 2020 should take it to 2060.  I wonder if that's also part of the plus of the CANDU design, as that has not been the case for many US plants where refurbishment cost is deemed to exceed replacement cost.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 11, 2018, 11:42:37 PM
I did a bit of reading and see that Ontario province has weaned itself off of coal entirely since 2014.  Impressive.

Nuclear isn't going to be optional for Canada,  I suspect, as their climate warrants a very high energy use per capita, ala Norway.

I did some reading on the newest nuclear molten salt designs and was impressed at the much greater inherent safety of the proposed designs;  there is no Fukishima event possible even with total loss of power and pumping capability.  The design also generates a fraction of the high level waste. 

A Canadian company, Terrestrial Energy, has a molten salt design that I hope will prove to be highly successful. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMSR

I've worked with a Canadian engineering firm on a military related project and my impression was that Canadian engineers are very capable and honest. They did their part of the R&D project very well, on time and budget, and were a pleasure to work with. Management is also more honest than in the US.  Canada's safety record has been quite good, comparatively.  So far only one ''Homer Simpson'' type operator error dumping tritium in Lake Ontario and a couple fuel rod failures...one with a total loss of the plant.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/a-closer-look-at-canada-s-nuclear-plants-1.1194756


 

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 12, 2018, 01:07:51 AM

Every nuke reactor has supposedly been safe, foolproof and better than the others that have  had problems.

Trouble is even if that were true, ( and 99% is industry bullshit!) they never take the old " Dangerous" reactors off line even when they are fully aware of their problems, limitations and potential for disaster.  What does happen repeatedly is these old reactors are pushed beyond their intended design lives with their inherent problems and weaknesses being well known so they can continue to pose the huge danger they do to the whole damn planet and everything on it.

Hopefully the green movement will achieve something VERY worth while in seeing no more nukes are ever built.
Wishful thinking but something worth hoping for.

I cannot think of a more real or significant danger to mankind than nuke reactors. Forget about globull warming and co2, over population and all the rest of it.  A nuke accident has the ability to affect life on planet earth tomorrow and I suspect we are already ALL being poisoned and detrimentaly affected by the accidents that are already happening. 
Happening because they never actually come to an end.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: dieselspanner on April 12, 2018, 01:23:20 PM

Hopefully the green movement will achieve something VERY worth while in seeing no more nukes are ever built.
Wishful thinking but something worth hoping for.


Would this be the same 'greenwashed bunch of clowns' you've slagged off in almost every other thread, Glort?

Cheers
Stef

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 12, 2018, 02:47:53 PM

Yes, it would be exactly them!

I detect an implication of hypocrisy in your comment.  I would refer to the old adage of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
 
In this case, I consider Nukes to be a far greater enemy than any one or thing on this earth for the simple reason it has such immense potential to take us all out so quick and so easily.  I reckon some of the greenwashed ( and honestly concerned) might even welcome me into their ranks for the very same reasons.  We have a combined enemy and a united position on this issue.
 
I have no problem backing anyone if they do something worthwhile and productive. That's my major issue with the  green cause, it's more about money than doing things that are beneficial for the planet.  The world has to tolerate  all this over the top green washed rubbish and all problems it causes so if for once they can do something worthwhile, I will back them all the way.

I will admit, I am sometimes torn between deciding who is the cause of the issues I have with the green movement. There is a lot of gubbermint and big business influence that don't give a shit about the cause they feign support for, they are only interested in the $$ and thats clearly demonstrated and Inarguable.  There are the vocal and idiotic private elements who are ignorant and one track minded and just think that everything should be what they see as green tomorrow and will rant and rave in complete ignorance.

Then I suspect there are those that are rational, supportive and honest in their intentions and beliefs.
I have a good and old friend like that. He does what he can, puts his money where his mouth is to support his beliefs but looks at the big and true picture and has no hesitation to call BS when he sees it because he's concerned with doing the right thing for the environment not just doing the " green " thing.
There is a big difference between the 2 if one is honest and truly believes in their position on this.

My friend does not just go out and spend money because something is labeled green. He looks into it and makes informed and honest choices. He recently renovated his house and was telling me about all the products pushed as supposedly being green which he found when looking into their production and composition were far more detrimental to run of the mill things that never made any environmental claims at all. He drives a regular diesel vehicle and can bury you in facts and figures about how for his needs, this is the least damaging choice and why he'd never own a current hybrid/ electric and the environmental drawbacks they have in production, disposal and in between. 

He's anything but greenwashed, he's honest to himself and makes real effort to make sure his actions are the best he can do to support the cause he believes in. My admiration for him and his honesty is Immense and if they put him or somone like him in charge of the green movement and looking after the earth, then real and beneficial change would occur.

I doubt your see him screaming about closing coal fired power stations but nukes would be wound down as soon as there was any sort of viable alternative. You would see him trying to get solar on every roof possibly lessen demand on the grid the same as he has. He wouldn't be spending Millions building BS batteries in the middle of the dessert for companies to profit from but he would be subsidizing  home batteries to again create a real and significant reductions in emissions from non nuke sources where it would count. 
 I'm sure he would put an end to many industrial practices and waste and put tangible benefits over profit. We have discussed all this at length and many times.

He would change the world for the better be his actions be deemed green or not. The environment and the planet would become cleaner and more sustainable.


I am not in any way against saving the environment/ planet etc, what shits me to tears is the endless bullshit people/ entity's go on with PRETENDING they are doing something when 9 times out of 10 their ideas, proposals and actions actually cause more harm than the ways and methods they are so against.... or are based on profit not benefit at all. 

It's about damn time this green religion did something of real and tangible benefit and stopping any more nukes being built would be a huge step forward for the entire world

I'll back it all the way even if Jack the Ripper is behind it. 

 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 13, 2018, 07:55:26 PM
I did a bit of reading and see that Ontario province has weaned itself off of coal entirely since 2014.  Impressive.

Nuclear isn't going to be optional for Canada,  I suspect, as their climate warrants a very high energy use per capita, ala Norway.

I did some reading on the newest nuclear molten salt designs and was impressed at the much greater inherent safety of the proposed designs;  there is no Fukishima event possible even with total loss of power and pumping capability.  The design also generates a fraction of the high level waste. 

A Canadian company, Terrestrial Energy, has a molten salt design that I hope will prove to be highly successful. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMSR

I've worked with a Canadian engineering firm on a military related project and my impression was that Canadian engineers are very capable and honest. They did their part of the R&D project very well, on time and budget, and were a pleasure to work with. Management is also more honest than in the US.  Canada's safety record has been quite good, comparatively.  So far only one ''Homer Simpson'' type operator error dumping tritium in Lake Ontario and a couple fuel rod failures...one with a total loss of the plant.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/a-closer-look-at-canada-s-nuclear-plants-1.1194756

What nuclear power plant  was a loss ?
The D2O originally came out of the lake . That little bit of tritium in the D2O compared to an emergency exit sign . Is like comparing a birthday cake to a forrest fire .
   Load following peaking power is still supplied by fossil, natural gas instead of coal.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 13, 2018, 08:12:18 PM

Yes, it would be exactly them!

I detect an implication of hypocrisy in your comment.  I would refer to the old adage of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
 
In this case, I consider Nukes to be a far greater enemy than any one or thing on this earth for the simple reason it has such immense potential to take us all out so quick and so easily.  I reckon some of the greenwashed ( and honestly concerned) might even welcome me into their ranks for the very same reasons.  We have a combined enemy and a united position on this issue.
 
I have no problem backing anyone if they do something worthwhile and productive. That's my major issue with the  green cause, it's more about money than doing things that are beneficial for the planet.  The world has to tolerate  all this over the top green washed rubbish and all problems it causes so if for once they can do something worthwhile, I will back them all the way.

I will admit, I am sometimes torn between deciding who is the cause of the issues I have with the green movement. There is a lot of gubbermint and big business influence that don't give a shit about the cause they feign support for, they are only interested in the $$ and thats clearly demonstrated and Inarguable.  There are the vocal and idiotic private elements who are ignorant and one track minded and just think that everything should be what they see as green tomorrow and will rant and rave in complete ignorance.

Then I suspect there are those that are rational, supportive and honest in their intentions and beliefs.
I have a good and old friend like that. He does what he can, puts his money where his mouth is to support his beliefs but looks at the big and true picture and has no hesitation to call BS when he sees it because he's concerned with doing the right thing for the environment not just doing the " green " thing.
There is a big difference between the 2 if one is honest and truly believes in their position on this.

My friend does not just go out and spend money because something is labeled green. He looks into it and makes informed and honest choices. He recently renovated his house and was telling me about all the products pushed as supposedly being green which he found when looking into their production and composition were far more detrimental to run of the mill things that never made any environmental claims at all. He drives a regular diesel vehicle and can bury you in facts and figures about how for his needs, this is the least damaging choice and why he'd never own a current hybrid/ electric and the environmental drawbacks they have in production, disposal and in between. 

He's anything but greenwashed, he's honest to himself and makes real effort to make sure his actions are the best he can do to support the cause he believes in. My admiration for him and his honesty is Immense and if they put him or somone like him in charge of the green movement and looking after the earth, then real and beneficial change would occur.

I doubt your see him screaming about closing coal fired power stations but nukes would be wound down as soon as there was any sort of viable alternative. You would see him trying to get solar on every roof possibly lessen demand on the grid the same as he has. He wouldn't be spending Millions building BS batteries in the middle of the dessert for companies to profit from but he would be subsidizing  home batteries to again create a real and significant reductions in emissions from non nuke sources where it would count. 
 I'm sure he would put an end to many industrial practices and waste and put tangible benefits over profit. We have discussed all this at length and many times.

He would change the world for the better be his actions be deemed green or not. The environment and the planet would become cleaner and more sustainable.


I am not in any way against saving the environment/ planet etc, what shits me to tears is the endless bullshit people/ entity's go on with PRETENDING they are doing something when 9 times out of 10 their ideas, proposals and actions actually cause more harm than the ways and methods they are so against.... or are based on profit not benefit at all. 

It's about damn time this green religion did something of real and tangible benefit and stopping any more nukes being built would be a huge step forward for the entire world

I'll back it all the way even if Jack the Ripper is behind it.

  The damage from nuclear accidents is over stated . Look at the other environmental damage from other industry and nuclear is a tiny fraction.
   Is lead , cadmium, arsenic, asbestos,  PCB’s , plastics and dioxins a hazard to health? They just lack nuclear which causes some weaker folk to have an irrational knee jerk reaction and panic.
   How about the millions of people living on ground zero of two atomic warhead blasts . Does  Hiroshima and Nagasaki come to mind ?
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 13, 2018, 08:14:44 PM

Yes, it would be exactly them!

I detect an implication of hypocrisy in your comment.  I would refer to the old adage of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
 
In this case, I consider Nukes to be a far greater enemy than any one or thing on this earth for the simple reason it has such immense potential to take us all out so quick and so easily.  I reckon some of the greenwashed ( and honestly concerned) might even welcome me into their ranks for the very same reasons.  We have a combined enemy and a united position on this issue.
 
I have no problem backing anyone if they do something worthwhile and productive. That's my major issue with the  green cause, it's more about money than doing things that are beneficial for the planet.  The world has to tolerate  all this over the top green washed rubbish and all problems it causes so if for once they can do something worthwhile, I will back them all the way.

I will admit, I am sometimes torn between deciding who is the cause of the issues I have with the green movement. There is a lot of gubbermint and big business influence that don't give a shit about the cause they feign support for, they are only interested in the $$ and thats clearly demonstrated and Inarguable.  There are the vocal and idiotic private elements who are ignorant and one track minded and just think that everything should be what they see as green tomorrow and will rant and rave in complete ignorance.

Then I suspect there are those that are rational, supportive and honest in their intentions and beliefs.
I have a good and old friend like that. He does what he can, puts his money where his mouth is to support his beliefs but looks at the big and true picture and has no hesitation to call BS when he sees it because he's concerned with doing the right thing for the environment not just doing the " green " thing.
There is a big difference between the 2 if one is honest and truly believes in their position on this.

My friend does not just go out and spend money because something is labeled green. He looks into it and makes informed and honest choices. He recently renovated his house and was telling me about all the products pushed as supposedly being green which he found when looking into their production and composition were far more detrimental to run of the mill things that never made any environmental claims at all. He drives a regular diesel vehicle and can bury you in facts and figures about how for his needs, this is the least damaging choice and why he'd never own a current hybrid/ electric and the environmental drawbacks they have in production, disposal and in between. 

He's anything but greenwashed, he's honest to himself and makes real effort to make sure his actions are the best he can do to support the cause he believes in. My admiration for him and his honesty is Immense and if they put him or somone like him in charge of the green movement and looking after the earth, then real and beneficial change would occur.

I doubt your see him screaming about closing coal fired power stations but nukes would be wound down as soon as there was any sort of viable alternative. You would see him trying to get solar on every roof possibly lessen demand on the grid the same as he has. He wouldn't be spending Millions building BS batteries in the middle of the dessert for companies to profit from but he would be subsidizing  home batteries to again create a real and significant reductions in emissions from non nuke sources where it would count. 
 I'm sure he would put an end to many industrial practices and waste and put tangible benefits over profit. We have discussed all this at length and many times.

He would change the world for the better be his actions be deemed green or not. The environment and the planet would become cleaner and more sustainable.


I am not in any way against saving the environment/ planet etc, what shits me to tears is the endless bullshit people/ entity's go on with PRETENDING they are doing something when 9 times out of 10 their ideas, proposals and actions actually cause more harm than the ways and methods they are so against.... or are based on profit not benefit at all. 

It's about damn time this green religion did something of real and tangible benefit and stopping any more nukes being built would be a huge step forward for the entire world

I'll back it all the way even if Jack the Ripper is behind it.

  The damage from nuclear accidents is over stated . Look at the other environmental damage from other industry and nuclear is a tiny fraction.
   Is lead , cadmium, arsenic, asbestos,  PCB’s , plastics and dioxins a hazard to health? They just lack nuclear which causes some weaker folk to have an irrational knee jerk reaction and panic.
   How about the millions of people living on ground zero of two atomic warhead blasts . Does  Hiroshima and Nagasaki come to mind ?
   Here is no alternative for economical, clean and safe baseload power except nuclear .
   It is not possible to built enough lithium battery backup capacity to supply power with wind and solar generation .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 13, 2018, 09:23:14 PM
There's a good article on Thorium reactors on Wikipedia that covers some of the unfortunate design decisions that led to the current reactors with the inherent risk of melt down and explosion ala Fukishima, etc., and the generation of lots of very "hot" waste.  Both were avoidable.

Basically, the US military pressure for nuclear weapons grade plutonium guided the decision away from safer designs with much less and much shorter half life waste.  The thorium fuel designed plant that was built in the 60's was operated for a number of years successfully.  They fired the guy who ran it and openly promoted it's inherent melt-down proof design.  Raising safety issues was not acceptable, we had bombs to build.  He has been vindicated, in my mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium-based_nuclear_power

The present designs should never have been built in large numbers, and the continued work on safer (ala thorium or molten salt) designs should not have been abandoned AFTER being successful.  CANDU was a step in the right direction but not nearly far enough.  There is a difference between "safe if we don't hire Homer Simpson or have Mr Burns managing", and safe by inherent design, where at any time and with any number of failures, plant operators could walk away and there will not be melt down, explosion and contamination of the air and water.  There will still be Homer Simpson type incidents, because all you can hire are humans, but sadly, there were well proven design approaches that would have prevented Fukishima.

So linking nuclear bombs to fission plants, while seemly irrational, is in fact what got us into this particular mess.  And it does raise the issue as to the ability of our various regulatory agencies to be able to make good decisions for the public when real threats to public safety are present. Eisenhower tried to warn us about the excessive influence of the military industrial complex and this is a prime example of just that.


A key section from Wikipedia to get your interest up:
After World War II, uranium-based nuclear reactors were built to produce electricity. These were similar to the reactor designs that produced material for nuclear weapons. During that period, the government of the United States also built an experimental molten salt reactor using U-233 fuel, the fissile material created by bombarding thorium with neutrons. The MSRE reactor, built at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, operated critical for roughly 15,000 hours from 1965 to 1969. In 1968, Nobel laureate and discoverer of plutonium, Glenn Seaborg, publicly announced to the Atomic Energy Commission, of which he was chairman, that the thorium-based reactor had been successfully developed and tested.

In 1973, however, the US government settled on uranium technology and largely discontinued thorium-related nuclear research. The reasons were that uranium-fueled reactors were more efficient, the research was proven, and thorium's breeding ratio was thought insufficient to produce enough fuel to support development of a commercial nuclear industry. As Moir and Teller later wrote, "The competition came down to a liquid metal fast breeder reactor (LMFBR) on the uranium-plutonium cycle and a thermal reactor on the thorium-233U cycle, the molten salt breeder reactor. The LMFBR had a larger breeding rate ... and won the competition." In their opinion, the decision to stop development of thorium reactors, at least as a backup option, “was an excusable mistake.”[4]

Science writer Richard Martin states that nuclear physicist Alvin Weinberg, who was director at Oak Ridge and primarily responsible for the new reactor, lost his job as director because he championed development of the safer thorium reactors.[7][8] Weinberg himself recalls this period:

    [Congressman] Chet Holifield was clearly exasperated with me, and he finally blurted out, "Alvin, if you are concerned about the safety of reactors, then I think it may be time for you to leave nuclear energy." I was speechless. But it was apparent to me that my style, my attitude, and my perception of the future were no longer in tune with the powers within the AEC.[9]

Martin explains that Weinberg's unwillingness to sacrifice potentially safe nuclear power for the benefit of military uses forced him to retire:

    Weinberg realized that you could use thorium in an entirely new kind of reactor, one that would have zero risk of meltdown. . . . his team built a working reactor . . . . and he spent the rest of his 18-year tenure trying to make thorium the heart of the nation’s atomic power effort. He failed. Uranium reactors had already been established, and Hyman Rickover, de facto head of the US nuclear program, wanted the plutonium from uranium-powered nuclear plants to make bombs. Increasingly shunted aside, Weinberg was finally forced out in 1973.[10]

Despite the documented history of thorium nuclear power, many of today’s nuclear experts were nonetheless unaware of it. According to Chemical & Engineering News, "most people—including scientists—have hardly heard of the heavy-metal element and know little about it...," noting a comment by a conference attendee that "it's possible to have a Ph.D. in nuclear reactor technology and not know about thorium energy."[11] Nuclear physicist Victor J. Stenger, for one, first learned of it in 2012:

    It came as a surprise to me to learn recently that such an alternative has been available to us since World War II, but not pursued because it lacked weapons applications.[12]

Others, including former NASA scientist and thorium expert Kirk Sorensen, agree that "thorium was the alternative path that was not taken … "[13][14]:2 According to Sorensen, during a documentary interview, he states that if the US had not discontinued its research in 1974 it could have "probably achieved energy independence by around 2000."[15]




Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 13, 2018, 10:04:24 PM


  The damage from nuclear accidents is over stated . Look at the other environmental damage from other industry and nuclear is a tiny fraction.
   Is lead , cadmium, arsenic, asbestos,  PCB’s , plastics and dioxins a hazard to health? They just lack nuclear which causes some weaker folk to have an irrational knee jerk reaction and panic.
   How about the millions of people living on ground zero of two atomic warhead blasts . Does  Hiroshima and Nagasaki come to mind ?
   Here is no alternative for economical, clean and safe baseload power except nuclear .


Does Fukushima and Chernobyl Register with you at all?  There is no way to fully state the amount and severity of the damage from any nuke accident let alone over state it. That's already been proven beyond doubt.

Please stop insulting us with your ludicrous and biased lies and absolute drivel. 
It's clear you are employed or have financial interest in the nuke industry and will spew any ridiculous crap in an effort to defend the hand that feeds and brainwashes you. Maybe you have been drinking the heavy water like others have Drunk the Coolaide.
Either that or you are the most ignorant fool on the entire internet.

No one is buying your ridiculous garbage so enough already.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on April 13, 2018, 10:31:39 PM

Well, here's the thing Mr Glort

Firstly and most importantly folks like Mr Buickand Deere and Bruce M are entitled both to express an opinion and to have that opinion listened to or disagreed with without suffering personal attacks.  To coherently attack their arguements would be the work of an intelligent and thoughtful man.  To attack them personally, just because you happen to disagree with them . . .

Secondly, they have valid points.  Death and damage from nuclear plant accidents make great headlines and receive wide coverage because they are "newsworthy" - that is, lots of folks will read/watch a story about them, so a large pool of readers is delivered to advertisers; which is what media news is all about after all

However, the slow, steady, daily killers such as air pollution from the dirty old coal plants run in third world countries, the endless deaths in the unregulated mines supplying the coal; or the infant mortality rates in third world countries where unregulated mining poisons the rivers that feed poor communities; or the endless toll of workers killed, mutilated or crippled with industrial diseases in the third-world sweatshops that supply out iPhones, laptops and cheap shoes . . . these slow, relentless, daily killers account for more lives every week than the nuclear industry has over its whole lifetime.  But they aren't "news"

A little bit of balance and a little bit of courtesy might help here

I've got a few days off next week and I'm off up to my off-grid site in the Bay of Plenty where there's an old Dursley 6/1 I bought a while back waiting for me to fit a new pump and injector.  I'm going to do my small bit to add to the pollution, I guess

Just my $0.02
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 14, 2018, 03:51:44 AM
Quote
Firstly and most importantly folks like Mr Buickand Deere and Bruce M are entitled both to express an opinion and to have that opinion listened to or disagreed with without suffering personal attacks.  To coherently attack their arguements would be the work of an intelligent and thoughtful man.  To attack them personally, just because you happen to disagree with them . . .

Maybe you should get yourself up to speed before YOU launch into the attacks you protest.

Firstly I have nothing against what Bruce said and had you paid attention, you would see nothing I said addressed his comments. Bruce may disagree with me but he does not gush with flawed garbage to push his vested interests that insult my intelligence.
 I have the absolute highest respect for Bruce and his position on things I don't agree with because he gives creditable and logical points for his position which have merit .  He's helped me wit a lot with things and he does not talk garbage and is open minded clearly unlike the person I did address.

I have raised issues with B&D's comments before in the way he talks about people living in Nagasaki etc and how he sticks his head in the sand and compare irrelevant examples to his position instead of ever even acknowledging related incidents like Chernoybyl and Fukishima.
To try and shove it down peoples throats that those catastrophes are over blown is ignorance in the extreme by anyone that believes that, be it him, you or anyone else.
I don't just look at headlines or media at all but always try and dig deeper to find what the truth not the garbage the sheeple are fed and lap up like idiots  as the majority do. The fact that has been addressed before but he keeps going on with biased heresay trying to convince people it's true is a personal insult in itself.

How anyone can believe in good conscious that something that produces the most toxic, long lived deadly poison known for which there is no treatment, disposal or recycling of and have the audacity ( or stupidity) to champion the process that creates that evil as " Clean" , is totally and utterly beyond me.....
Except for the phononema we have here were people are extremely biased and have financial interest in doing so.

That makes them either ignorant or Liars. Take your pick.

Quote
Secondly, they have valid points.  Death and damage from nuclear plant accidents make great headlines and receive wide coverage because they are "newsworthy" - that is, lots of folks will read/watch a story about them, so a large pool of readers is delivered to advertisers; which is what media news is all about after all

The fact that these accidents are COVERED Up and spin doctored to be magnitudes less severe than they are and are proven in time to be, shoots that theory down in flames. World changing and damaging events are headline worthy wether you like them or not.

The Japanese gubbermint and TEPCO were found to be lying through their arses as well and independent sources ( when you take the trouble to dig for the truth not the headlines) showed the media were just as guilty of downplaying the real situation with facts they well knew but didn't ( and don't ) ever report. 
If they were blowing it out of proportion, they would have had endless material to work with over several years but now all you are lucky to see is a buried article about another anniversary and what the latest problem is as if it is of little concern.

The media is a political and big business puppet. If you think they report the facts or care about them, one way or the other, you are very deluded.


Quote
However, the slow, steady, daily killers such as air pollution from the dirty old coal plants run in third world countries, the endless deaths in the unregulated mines supplying the coal; or the infant mortality rates in third world countries where unregulated mining poisons the rivers that feed poor communities; or the endless toll of workers killed, mutilated or crippled with industrial diseases in the third-world sweatshops that supply out iPhones, laptops and cheap shoes

That's the best argument you have got?
Comparing situations in 3rd world countries to high end tech of first world nations?  Really?
Is there anything better in the 3rd world than the " rich" countries? Do you know what makes the 3rd world what it is in the first place?
The fact they are shipfights compared to other places.
I could argue about every standard of health, living, food production, safety, quality of life and everything else kills more people than  in the west, asia and other places so comparing 3rd world coal stations to Nuke reactors is the exact sort of crap I am talking about.

If you are offended and take that personally because you are the one also issuing such drivel, that's your problem not mine.

Would you like to talk about the Lithium minining in these poor back arse places that go into the electric vehicles batteries those in the first world champion as being so clean and wonderful and think they are saving the planet driving them?

Lets talk about that shall we and compare first and 3rd world standards and effects. 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 14, 2018, 04:24:05 AM
Nuclear materials are not the most toxic or long live poisons . How about the medial isotopes used in medical imaging ?
  How about the half life of nuclear materials ? Nuclear materials particularly the highest dose sources tend to have very short half lives of seconds, minutes or hours . The half life of uranium or thorium naturally laying along the side of the road in many areas of the earth does not incite panic . The half-life is the same as the uranium stored in used fuel flasks .
  Nuclear materials can be detected immediately with a simple low cost frisker. How about all the lead , cadmium, mercury, PCB, Dioxins and nasty hydrocarbons from the petrochemical industry . If anyone want a source of health problems to worry about, there you go. However the general public with no clue regarding chemistry or biology , they have been conditioned by anti war/anti nuc groups and the Simpsons . That any amount of radiation is an instant and gruesome death. Why do people not understand what they are being exposed to while standing outside  in the sunlight . Yet they fret about nuclear marketable behind multiple concert and steel Barriers .
   If anyone wants to do something about the one of the worst menaces to the environment and wildlife . They would be calling for a ban on the plastic rings that hold six packs of beer together .   
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 14, 2018, 05:24:14 AM

Well I'm glad to hear I was wrong and nuke materials are safe afterall.  Obviously you would have no problem going to Fukishima to help with the cleanup and going into the buildings to pick up pieces of the spent fuel rod.
Likewise,  you'd have no problem putting them in an ordinary metal drum and storing some in your own back yard?  It's been there for years now so seeing it only has a half life of seconds, there couldn't be any problem with it right?

To put my money where my mouth is, I'll take a ordinary drum of coal ash for every drum of spent nuke fuel you do.  That's only fair.  ::)

The stupidity and incredible bias of your arguments is embarrassing.
You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with known fact and science and the authorities in the religion you are so blinded by.
Their information says your opinions are ridiculously flawed.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: dieselspanner on April 14, 2018, 09:28:08 AM
Well said, Mike

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 14, 2018, 03:07:16 PM

Well I'm glad to hear I was wrong and nuke materials are safe afterall.  Obviously you would have no problem going to Fukishima to help with the cleanup and going into the buildings to pick up pieces of the spent fuel rod.
Likewise,  you'd have no problem putting them in an ordinary metal drum and storing some in your own back yard?  It's been there for years now so seeing it only has a half life of seconds, there couldn't be any problem with it right?

To put my money where my mouth is, I'll take a ordinary drum of coal ash for every drum of spent nuke fuel you do.  That's only fair.  ::)

The stupidity and incredible bias of your arguments is embarrassing.
You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with known fact and science and the authorities in the religion you are so blinded by.
Their information says your opinions are ridiculously flawed.

Everything requires a level of precautions . Is welding done without helmet, eye protection, leather apron and leather gloves. Is deep sea diving performed without Scuba Gear? Do glass blowers use blow tubes? Are gloves and respiratory used when applying some paints and solvents ? Is a squeeze gate used when de-horning or trimming cattle hooves . Nuclear is no different , handle the risk with the appropriate level of protection?
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: AdeV on April 14, 2018, 06:57:25 PM


  The damage from nuclear accidents is over stated . Look at the other environmental damage from other industry and nuclear is a tiny fraction.
   Is lead , cadmium, arsenic, asbestos,  PCB’s , plastics and dioxins a hazard to health? They just lack nuclear which causes some weaker folk to have an irrational knee jerk reaction and panic.
   How about the millions of people living on ground zero of two atomic warhead blasts . Does  Hiroshima and Nagasaki come to mind ?
   Here is no alternative for economical, clean and safe baseload power except nuclear .


Does Fukushima and Chernobyl Register with you at all?  There is no way to fully state the amount and severity of the damage from any nuke accident let alone over state it. That's already been proven beyond doubt.


Chernobyl, being less than 1000 miles (and only a couple of small seas) away from here, is one that, despite happening some time ago, is still comparatively fresh. It's also brought up by every anti-Nuclear campaigner (or even non-campaigners, people like you who just don't like nuclear)...

Here's the thing about Chernobyl:

It was (until Fukishima), the biggest nuclear accident on the planet, released the most radioactive material over a larger area (most of Europe was, eventually, overpassed by the resulting radioactive clouds (there are stories of glow-in-the-dark sheep in the hills of Wales to this day), and it was news for weeks.  Thousands of Russians (as they were then - Ukrainians these days) were evactuated from Pripyat, the town just outside of which the Chernobyl reactor is located, which is about 150kms north of Kiev.

You know how many people are known to have died as a direct result of this enormous accident of deadly proportions?

I'll tell you.

Twenty nine.

29. Not even 30 people died as a result of the nuclear explosion, fire, or resulting fallout.


Of course.... I'm not saying that's a green light to scatter Chernobyls all over the world, that would just be silly. But it does show that even a dreadful nuclear accident actually isn't as deadly as people think it is.

More people die every single day around the world putting their trousers on than have been killed by Chernobyl.





Anyway. Whatever one's view is on nuclear power, it's a dead-in-the-water industry anyway. The nuclear scaremongers have frightened enough of the global population to make reactor construction and running costs so expensive that burning Amazonian butterflies would probably be cheaper; it's still a "fossil" fuel - Uranium is not a particularly common element, and as there's a finite supply there is therefore a finite amount of energy to be extracted.

IMHO the future is fusion power. There's two major onoging projects - ITER in Europe, and Polywell in the US. I believe the Polywell fusor is doing rather better than ITERs, and is likely to be producing usable power earlier. Fusion power produces virtually no harmful by-products (I believe there is some residual short-lived radioactivity in the materials which form the torus of ITER caused by plasma fusion effects, I don't know about Polywell), is self-extinguishing if anything goes wrong (it's completely impossible for a fusion reactor to explode, at least as a result of the fusion anyway), and - when it works, really DOES have the potential to deliver effectively unlimited energy at a knock-down price. That is, so long as the anti-Nuclear brigade don't get their teeth into it & somehow successfully conflate "Nuclear fusion" with "Nuclear fission".
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 14, 2018, 07:53:31 PM
Quote
Quote
Firstly and most importantly folks like Mr Buickand Deere and Bruce M are entitled both to express an opinion and to have that opinion listened to or disagreed with without suffering personal attacks.  To coherently attack their arguements would be the work of an intelligent and thoughtful man.  To attack them personally, just because you happen to disagree with them . . .
As you may have noticed I have been pretty quiet on this part of this thread.  It's because I'm blindingly ignorant about nuclear.  But I normally play nice with others.  Just like my reading impairment I have a hearing impairment.  Once the school boy crap starts apparently I not only go illiterate but my listening becomes challenged as well.  Another lesson from Donald John Trump.  He has taught me so much.  Especially about myself.

I'm just guessing that there isn't going to be a lot of mind shifting on nuclear on this website.  I do feel it's unfortunate that some of us don't think smoking is bad for our health.  The smoking - health pathology should teach or remind us that death, for most of us, comes in baby steps.  One coal car at a time.  One glass of tainted water at a time.  One hour of stopped in traffic at a time.  But if the gobernment libertard (do you respect me now) inspired health warnings don't convince you that smoking is bad for your health then what possibly could.  For me; I have buried a mother, father and brother all with cardiovascular causes of death that came about after thousands and thousands of puffs or pinches of tobacco.  Tobacco makes heroin, cocaine, fentanyl and all the other chemistry that are fought by most all national governments look like toy guns.  So where is nuclear power in all of this.  A tool we need to actually understand before go forward trying to save the world with it.  And understanding that the stuff we don't see, smell, hear or feel can be far more dangerous than the car wrecks we like to focus upon.  This is my rant for the morning.

Off to "Green Car Reports".

Aloha,
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 14, 2018, 09:31:42 PM
The economics of the present fission plants has been their downfall, not nuclear "whiners".  I have tried to make this point by referencing an article in Forbes explaining just that; Forbes is one of the most pro-industry right wing mags there is.  I suppose that subtlety was lost to folks here. In our world, the old adage of "follow the money" works pretty reliably.  Of course humans are irrational and emotional but that has not a lot to do with what industry or governments do except when they can exploit it for their own mean$.

As for the Chernobyl butchers bill, the figure of 29 people is an early figure from the Russian government of immediate fatalities. The range of people killed over time looks more like 4000 in the near term, and much, much higher for people made seriously ill.  Increasing radiation is much like other toxic exposures in that specific causality is impossible to prove.  And of course, it is a very good point that the true butcher's/toxic exposure bill of energy production system should be considered, and that relative risks and costs need to be evaluated objectively.

From Wikipedia:
"During mid-1986 the official Soviet death toll rose from 2 to 31, a figure that has often been repeated. Following the disaster itself, the USSR organized an effort to stabilize and shore up the reactor area, still awash in radiation, using the efforts of more than 600,000 “liquidators” recruited from all over the USSR. Some organizations claim that deaths as a result of the immediate aftermath and the cleanup operation may number at least 6,000,[8] but that exceeds the number of workers believed, by the National Committee for Radiation Protection of the Ukrainian Population, to have died from all causes (including, for example, old age and traffic accidents). The UNSCEAR report cites only evidence for thyroid cancers among children and teens (adults are quite resistant to iodine-131 poisoning) and some small amount of leukemia and eye cataracts among the most irradiated of the workers; no evidence for hard cancers has been found, despite waiting beyond the elapse of the usual ten year latency period.[1] For further information on the indirect health implications, see Chernobyl disaster's effects on human health.

The total number of deaths, including future deaths, is highly controversial, and estimates range from "up to" 4,000 (by a team of over 100 scientists[9][2]) to 93,000 or even 200,000 (by Greenpeace[10]). The controversy arises because most of the deaths cannot be measured: any cancer deaths that may be caused by the accident are negligible compared to background rates of cancer. Therefore, estimates must rely instead on controversial models such as LNT.[11]"


I'm all for continued research work on fusion,  but I'd like to see advanced development (refinement) of safer and less waste producing fission such as molten salt thorium as well, since sustained fusion has been elusively "just around the corner" since around 1970.  Since adopting enriched solid fuel fission, virtually no progress on anything else has happened.

We went down the wrong path with enriched solid fuel fission reactors, and we should not ignore the lesson that a system requiring a massive active cooling system to prevent a radioactive pollution disaster is a bad design choice when other proven, safer designs have existed since the early 70s.

Japan got lucky that the radioactive plume from the plant at Fukishima went out over the sea (and US Navy sailors on disaster relief ships) instead of populated areas.  That radiation event was so serious that those ships were subsequently taken out of service for a serious decontamination effort.  That lesson got Japan's attention, and others, as it should.  Calling a near miss a triumph of nuclear safety seems illogical to me.  Despite considerable effort to regulate this industry, the plant at Fukishima (by the sea) had it's backup generators located in a low level room that immediately flooded from tsunami.  This after the public is told that this plant is a safe modern design, well operated, etc.  This was NOT a Homer Simpson OR George Burns type event, where operator error or ignoring safety for profit was done; it was a failure by incredibly bad design that was missed by the plant design engineers, the operator TEPCO, and by the regulatory agencies.   

That error of design was compounded by the inherent design flaw of the present solid fueled fission reactors; a massive active cooling system MUST operate for an extended period during "shut down"; there is no f'ing OFF switch. 









Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 15, 2018, 01:18:05 AM
Is it me and my sick sense of humor but when you watch the tsunamis of Fukishima are you kind of wondering when Rodan or Godzilla are going to come around the corner and push all the water back.  Totally amazing to watch even today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2ZOmMH4WHA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2ZOmMH4WHA)

I'm thinking we still have back up generators below storm sewer level here in the states. 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 15, 2018, 02:19:00 AM
A good technical post mortem on Fukishima:
http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/03/06/why-fukushima-was-preventable-pub-47361

As previously noted in the article on Thorium/Molten Salt reactors, there is not one word in this assessment critical of the inherent safety problem of our present fission designs.  Everyone working in this field has accepted that this danger is inherent to fission power and is acceptable, since the know nothing of the alternatives that were proven viable since the early 1970s.

There is something basic in human wetware that has us accept whatever has been well established, never question it.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on April 15, 2018, 01:27:32 PM
Not quite sure how we got from electric vehicles to nuclear fission but this link suggests that allowing powerful corporations access to nuclear technology may be a mistake. https://uk.news.yahoo.com/fukushima-nuclear-plant-tsunami-wall-131403275.html

What a surprise, profits before sustainability and the health of the planet, it`s people and all other species.
Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 15, 2018, 01:58:56 PM
No Bob,

Tell me this is all a whimsical moment of liberal / progressive hatred suggesting that anyone, much less a no one or corporate entity as their sometimes called would put profits above public health.   "No!" I write.  No!

The US spends almost 20% of it's GNP on sickness care (you may know it as health care but they don't want to deal with you when you're healthy).  Gosh.  Let's not rinse this concept of greed over purpose across any part of our economy other than nuclear.    Sweet dreams brothers and sisters.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 15, 2018, 04:53:07 PM
Good link, Bob.  I stand corrected, the "Mr. Burns" (profits first) effect was an significant factor.  I also found that the incidence of earthquakes in Japan is astonishing- around 1000 per year, they live on a fault line.  Per the Carnegie report, safety evaluations of Fukishima  in 2008 showed that the critical cooling pumps were well submerged with estimated worst case tsunami levels...those pumps were not submersible type pumps.  The safety report was ignored for the obviou$ reason.  A failure of both TEPCO and Japans regulatory agencies.

Also astonishing to me is that most of the control and monitoring systems didn't have a secure power source, ala UPS, so that when power failed, and backup power failed, they had no way to even monitor the status of anything or know what was going on. They had no remote monitoring capability, either. 


Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on April 16, 2018, 12:01:29 AM
Hey Bruce, the Carnegie report make interesting reading. The most astonishing thing to me is that the technical staff remained at their posts and attempted to prevent this disaster. They must have been aware that they were risking their lives by doing so.
To compound the problems these guys were facing, some of them would have lost family and friends to the tsunami. Despite the risks they faced they managed to get some of the control equipment back online by cannibalising their own motor vehicles.
So a big thumbs up for team Homer and a big thumbs down for Mr Burns and the toothless regulators.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 16, 2018, 01:23:09 AM

The generation argument may be a moot point when it comes to electrics.
Reading up on grid capacity and expected demand, the prediction is for the rise in EV's by 2040, the demand on the grid will increase 300X.
That is only from electric vehicles and not increasing population and uptake of electric powered devices and conveniences.
The big problem seems to be that some places will take up electrics more than others which makes sense.

City drivers may take up faster than those in the country for instance but another problem comes in suburbia when families try to keep up with the Musk's and EVERY home in the neighborhood has an EV or 3 in the garage. This will cause local overloading and necessitate a strong bolstering of the local distribution network.  No problem technically but VERY expensive. Who do you think will pay for that? Yep, you the consumer.
If anyone is gullible enough to think the price of power would ever come down, think again about that really hard.

Electrics ARE already more expensive to run per km than Liquid fuel vehicles and will only get more expensive as grid demand increases.

It does raise a point and question though.
With gubbermints pushing electrics, why are they not also pushing homes instead of in most parts restricting, the adoption of PV?
Obviously the answer is greed, same as always, but again we are heading down a road of stupidity with this where profit dominates good sense and planning.  Maybe this should be in the stupidity of those in charge thread  as it's a classic example.

That said, it's a limited benifit as well. Not every place has lots of sunshing and every place has periods of a week or more where the sun is hidden.  In those times the grid is going to be really heavily drained as the input from solar and the load it alleviates is going to be nil and all the power demand will fall on it's shoulders.

Articles I read spoke of using the Ev's to smooth out grid demand. I find this to be spin doctoring.  There is a big difference between smoothing and making something run flat out all the time. It also flys in the face of the cheapest renewable now, Solar. They talk about recharging at night with scheduled programing and pricing. I think it will go the other way in fact. If you have solar input through the day and everyone seems to be busting a gut to to that way, then logicaly your input will be max through the day. when EV's become significant, they are already forseeing the grid demand at night equaling that of the day. If you don't have the solar input then effectively the peak time will become night.

There was also talk about charging at home.  If you have even a 50 Kwh battery, You would probably want 15-20 Kwh of panels on your roof to make that happen. Sure, you'll get away with less on a sunny day in summer but on a cloudy day in winter.... Ya!
Of course this overlooks the fact people generally have the car at work during the day or are out shopping or are NOT at home. Your solar could go back to the grid to be used elsewhere but I cannot see shopping centres and business carparks spending fortunes as they would have to in order to allow charging for all the vehicles parked there.  Just think of the costs of doing that both in equipment, materials and labour to do that then you have to put in the infrastructure with transformers and suitable power lines to handle the load.

Not so bad when you have a lot of little inputs from all over but when you have a lot in a small area..... Dynamics change and $$ add up fast!.

I can see gubbermints doing a real slowdown on the EV thing when reality becomes more apparent and the lights start flickering.
They don't want to build coal power plants, they don't want to build nuke, they do like solar and wind but one of those is highly variable and the other is limited availability.

The thirst for power from EV's WILL be around the clock and a huge beast to feed. To update the grid capacity in generation and distribution at a sufficient rate to match the Touted EV growth simply won't happen.  The EV fleet is 1% now. Predictions are that most grids could not handle near 15% of vehicles being EV because they represent at least one households worth of extra power consumption along with the increase in demand from traditional growth which is expected to ramp up disproportionately anyway.

It's s nice distraction and appeasement of the green washed but the reality of EV's is a very different and difficult thing.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on April 16, 2018, 12:15:39 PM
Glort is absolutely right in his assessment that the electricity grid is completely unable to provide the megawatts required to charge the Australian fleet of vehicles. At present our grid is incapable of supplying sufficient energy to cover air conditioning on hot days. The idea that my ability to travel to work or to go to the shops (100 km round trip) should be determined by an already over stretched distribution/generation system frightens the life out of me.

So what can we do about this? I believe that Glort has comprehensively proved that PV systems can produce more electricity than he knows what to do with, at a very low capital expenditure. The problem as always is storage/distribution of this energy and the gubermints dependence on the revenue from fossil fuels.

Perhaps what is needed is a complete change in the way we tackle this issue, imagine a motor vehicle with multiple fuel capabilities. It could recharge and store power from solar PV systems when you are at home but also act as a generator when the grid goes out or possibly provide an off grid supply. I don`t know how to build such a vehicle but I suspect that someone on this forum probably does and I look forward to their input.

Bob


 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 16, 2018, 01:53:58 PM
As usual, You add a slant of very insightful ideas and points Bob. I always enjoy reading your comments very much because of this.


At present our grid is incapable of supplying sufficient energy to cover air conditioning on hot days.

I know I rant and rave about the greenwashed but it's not out of spite as one might say but worry.
We have the ludicrous situation where the green ideals have become so blinding, common sense has gone out the window at a farcical rate.
South Oz has literally blown up coal fired power stations in the name of the environment and emissions etc only to have such a shortfall in reliable power they have had to install DIESEL generators that burn 2 tanker loads of fuel per HOUR to make up the shortfall.

I have never looked it up but common sense tells me that a coal fired power station is going to create a lot less emissions than mammoth Diesels pounding away... and that's from someone who loves Diesels.  The environmental movement/ religion is causing so much DAMAGE this way.

NO, coal fired power stations are not desirable but for the moment, the reality is they are the lesser evil as against Diesel Generators so why in the hell did we go backwards in the name of Improvement?  There is such a gut busting hurry to make everything green, we are making it black at a far faster rate than if we just left things the hell alone till there was a workable technology.
And please, before anyone insults my intelligence again with crap about having to do test or pilot programs for later technologys, get your head out your nether regions.  If they can computer model Space craft, Jumbo jets, buildings and other things so they are ready to go out the box, they can damn well do it with anything in the power industry.

Once again it's all green and money riding on the back of a worthwhile cause corrupting the shit out of it and sheeple too damn lazy and stupid to realise or do anything about it.

It's tragic, absoloutly tragic. The people that are saying they want to preserve the planet  for future generations are so often the ones responsible for accelerating it's demise.


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The idea that my ability to travel to work or to go to the shops (100 km round trip) should be determined by an already over stretched distribution/generation system frightens the life out of me.

I don't think you need worry Bob. I see 3 major factors at work:

1.  NOTHING will replace oil till it has run out and so expensive that the oil companies and gubbermints start loosing money.
Despite all the veste interests saying the opposite, I believe there is 50-100 years supply at least.  Ever notice the only time you hear about oil running out is when the price goes sky high for political and business reasons?  I haven't heard anything about an oil shortage for at least 3 years. Next time the arabs ( whom don't produce nearly as much oil as people believe) want to up the price, you can gaurantee the " Oil is running out" BS will be laid on 10 feet thick once again to distract how you are being ripped off and make you feel thankful to get it at any price.  Pure marketing and sales 101.

2. I don't believe Electrics will ever be the MAIN fuel replacement. I and others have highlighted so many problems with that and I'll gaurantee there are a lot more we are ignorant to and haven't thought of. The great majority of the touted plusses are in fact flawed and there is a lot the public is not told in order to spin doctor opinion the way business and gubbermints want it.

3.  NO current technology is really satisfactory.  Not electric, biofuels, Hydrogen..... None of them.
That leaves up with having to come up with something new all together and something none of us have yet heard of. I am certain it will not be driven by environmental concerns, it could be the most polluting thing imaginable But I guarantee it will be profitable and controllable.  You won't be crapping in a container and putting it in the reactor to drive to work. It will be a processed fuel that gubbermints and business can control, regulate and earn biblical revenue from.

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I believe that Glort has comprehensively proved that PV systems can produce more electricity than he knows what to do with, at a very low capital expenditure. The problem as always is storage/distribution of this energy and the gubermints dependence on the revenue from fossil fuels.

Like the biofuels thing I immersed myself in 15 years ago, I'm finding the solar thing just keeps me learning new things every time I think I have a handle on it.
Today was a prime example.  I have presently 8.5 Kw of solar on my 9x9M Shed. I have 1.5Kw on the back pergola and the 4kw I go running a few days back.  There is also 1.75 Kw lying on an unused bit of garden because I'm trying to squeeze something out of panels otherwise sitting there doing nothing and I'm hoping the heat from the things Cooks the bulbous weeds in that bit of garden for good measure.

My total generation for the Day was 38 Kwh.  Thats not bad, more power than I used today being I didn't run the air at all BUT.... It's less than I was getting a few months back when i only had 8.5 Kw of panels up and running.
yes, it was a slightly hazy day but it was still warm and there was no cloud shading.  With nearly 16 Kw of panels, I would still be well under the power required to charge a small EV. And that's with ALL the power diverted to the vehicle which means I'd be paying full tilt for what I used in my home.
And that is without heating or cooling and my only option here other than wood is Electric.

At one stage I thought i'd be going overboard with 10 Kw on the roof then I started crunching numbers and seeing what winter fall off was.  I have another 5Kw to put on the roof which will give me about 20 in total and I wonder how far under i'm going to be in winter. Sure, in summer I'll be able to power the homes either side of me and turn the hose in to a cod stores with the AC but when that inevitable fortnight of non stop rain comes as it does every winter, I'm going to have to hope it's early in the billing cycle so I have a chance to make it up.

There is also thing thing that I am fortunate enough  to have a big shed with half the roof facing the perfect direction and an even bigger house roof with enough roof perfectly orientated  to just allow 5Kw of panels and the entire west face having Minimal shading.... which I'll fix with a chainsaw to improve further.
Many places I have looked at have severe shading problems so they could cover their roofs in panels and still probably struggle to meet their daily home consumption.

To keep an EV charged, one of the 4 vehicles the 3 of us have, I'd pretty much have to cover my entire and unusually large roof area.
If I were buying new panels, I reckon that would easy be a $50K exercise.
But take your pick, pay it up front in solar or pay a hell of a lot in power..... Like triple your current home Bill PER Vehicle.  For us, that would be ( Counting 3 cars only) about $3100 a MONTH.
I can assure you, we don't spend that on petrol and power combined even without any solar offset.
Make's that $50K look like not so bad an investment afterall..... even though it's still going to leave up with a not inconsiderable shortfall on energy.

STORAGE is the key thing right now. Making power isn't that hard. I have many reservations over the effects of covering vast tracts of the planet with black PV panels or mirrors and the environmental effects that Might have but none the less, it does give us some reduction in fossil fuel use and therefore options and breathing space. |

I don't put anything in these new ideas as featured in press releases and editorials any more. i'm still waiting for this incredible breakthrough engine that uses no fuel, develops 1000Hp and weighs 10Kg to arrive. Been waiting for that my entire life and been told it's just around the corner. They will be still saying that the day they nail me in my mahogany box.
When I can go buy it, see one working or it be an everyday item, THEN I will accept it.
Until such time all these Safe, powerful, clean, environmentally friendly new reported ideas are just investment ploys and BS to me.


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Perhaps what is needed is a complete change in the way we tackle this issue, imagine a motor vehicle with multiple fuel capabilities.

As I said, I don't believe the mainstream vehicles of the future will use any technology we are talking about or are aware of now. I have no idea what that may be.  The bit that scares me is that I might be more right than I realise and no one else has a clue what the realistic and practical way forward is either.  It plays on my mind that I could be right and all this talk of hydrogen and electric is exactly what I think and just a distraction from the reality, that there is nothing and we may be headed into an energy crisis that will put us back to like the dark ages.

I don't think any of us here will be around to see it but those of you fortunate to have grandchildren might want to put some of your concern into that even before worrying about C02 and globull warming.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 16, 2018, 10:48:39 PM
  The Fukishima incident was much compounded by plant managers that did not want to loose face and be embarrassed by having to vent hydrogen gas from the units. If the explosive hydrogen had been gotten rid of.  The Fukishima reactor buildings would have remained intact. With the over heated fuel collecting in the basement.
   As for Chernobyl being "Toxic". Somebody forget to tell the abundant and thriving wildlife in the restricted sector around the facility. No three eyed fish and no more than the average amount of  animals with cancerous lumps.
   Too bad the anti NUC's have no idea or don't want to hear how radioactive that Coleman Lamp mantles are. Or smoke detectors , granite counter tops, home basements or the broad band blast of energy they receive from the sun while on the beach.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 17, 2018, 06:19:00 PM
No three eyed fish - No problems.

How many kilo tons or is it mega tons of concrete have they poured on the reactor or where the reactor used to be and continue to pour?
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 17, 2018, 07:37:53 PM
Here's an example of the kind of ignorant, tin hat wearing, nuclear phobic person B&D is referring to:

Admiral Rickover was the developer of the US nuclear navy and renowned engineer. Here's a quote from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyman_G._Rickover

"Given Rickover's single-minded focus on naval nuclear propulsion, design, and operations, it came as a surprise to many[46] in 1982, near the end of his career, when he testified before the U.S. Congress that, were it up to him what to do with nuclear powered ships, he "would sink them all." At a congressional hearing Rickover testified that:

    "I do not believe that nuclear power is worth it if it creates radiation. Then you might ask me why do I have nuclear powered ships. That is a necessary evil. I would sink them all. I am not proud of the part I played in it. I did it because it was necessary for the safety of this country. That's why I am such a great exponent of stopping this whole nonsense of war. Unfortunately limits — attempts to limit war have always failed. The lesson of history is when a war starts every nation will ultimately use whatever weapon it has available. ... Every time you produce radiation, you produce something that has a certain half-life, in some cases for billions of years. ... It is important that we control these forces and try to eliminate them." (Economics of Defense Policy: Hearing before the Joint Economic Committee, Congress of the United States, 97th Cong., 2nd sess., Pt. 1 (1982))"

Rickover knew by then that there is no such thing as a safe level of radiation; the incidence of illness just increases with accumulated exposure.  The incidence of thyroid disease globally continues to rise, thus more overweight, fatigued people who have difficulty thinking and are depressed.  I've struggled with thyroid disease along with other autoimmune diseases from a toxic exposure myself and it is no party.

The US Navy has one of the best nuclear safety records in the world.  I'd much rather they were operating our present civilian solid fuel fission plants until we can do something much inherently safer.







Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 17, 2018, 08:18:56 PM
Glort is absolutely right in his assessment that the electricity grid is completely unable to provide the megawatts required to charge the Australian fleet of vehicles. At present our grid is incapable of supplying sufficient energy to cover air conditioning on hot days. The idea that my ability to travel to work or to go to the shops (100 km round trip) should be determined by an already over stretched distribution/generation system frightens the life out of me.

So what can we do about this? I believe that Glort has comprehensively proved that PV systems can produce more electricity than he knows what to do with, at a very low capital expenditure. The problem as always is storage/distribution of this energy and the gubermints dependence on the revenue from fossil fuels.

Perhaps what is needed is a complete change in the way we tackle this issue, imagine a motor vehicle with multiple fuel capabilities. It could recharge and store power from solar PV systems when you are at home but also act as a generator when the grid goes out or possibly provide an off grid supply. I don`t know how to build such a vehicle but I suspect that someone on this forum probably does and I look forward to their input.

Bob

Extra cost, extra space required and extra weight will make the larger batteries impractical . When and where is there going to be surplus power to re-charge these batteries after driving to work or driving home . Having these batteries provide enough power to carry the utility grid ......then where and when will they be re-charged enough to drive the vehicle to work or home from work.
    How many electric vehicles would it require to supply the utility grid with an extra 1000 Mw for eight hours .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 17, 2018, 11:58:47 PM

Extra cost, extra space required and extra weight will make the larger batteries impractical .

Not sure what you are talking about but clearly, Neither do you.

The proposals atm for solar power is to have batteries in every home. They charge on solar during the day and then are controlled to release power back to the grid when it is needed as well as power the home.
There is a company here in Oz doing just that right now.  https://repositpower.com/
This isn't another load of ' The next generation of reactors will be safe and clean" Crap they have been saying for 50 years, it's working and in practice NOW.

It would not be hard obviously to incorporate EV batteries into this grid feedback scheme although being honest and fair unlike some whom want to push particular fantasy's at all costs, the charging of an EV through the day at work seems like it would be difficult for most.

As far as cost goes, What is the cost to construct a Nuke plant, how long does it take, what is the running cost per year and how many batteries and panels would that construction and annual running cost pay for to be fitted to homes?


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When is there going to be surplus power to charge these batteries after driving to work or driving home .

Well clearly for most people, there wouldn't be and no one is saying there would. The excess power would come through the day from your solar and charge the home battery which could then send the energy where needed, whatever application that was.
Most free standing homes and duplex homes here and I imagine else where would have more than enough space on unused walls to fit multiple battery systems. If solar arrays were installed for max generation, then 10 Kw would not be hard to do on an average home and I would imagine most homes here could do 20. Where I am where the homes tend to be large single storey with substantial roof are for both the shed and home, 50Kwh would be a walk in the park.  The smaller project houses they are throwing up ( which is what they make me want to do, throw up,) would still accommodate 2+ battery systems and have enough roof for at least 10 Kw of panels.

Round here they are proudly announcing 33,000 new homes in the next 7 years.  If each home has 2 10 Kwh batteries the same in panels, that's a LOT of power offset.  The space and weight does not matter because it is distributed rather than all lumped in one place.


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Having these batteries provide enough power to carry the utility grid ......then be charged enough to drive the vehicle to work or home from work.

That's a flawed argument from the start. Batteries are never going to carry the grid and there are other power sources in operation right now. Solar, hydro, wind in the renewable and coal in the undesirable sector.  There are NO nukes in oz thank god and we still have a grid as erratic as the green washed have destabilized it.

The 2nd flaw in your argument is even if your single minded, tunnel visioned, one track Nuke ignorance was allowed to put nukes everywhere, the generation is a secondary issue to the distribution.  You'd need power plants everywhere and there is certainly not the space in many parts to accomodate them. there is not a hope in hell in the current green climate that people would allow them to proliferate either and there would be rioting and the overthrow of Gubbermints.  You may call people ignorant or scared or whatever but the reality is the opinion is what it is and nukes for the best part are dead in the water.

In order to have a hope in hell of supplying EV's ( which as I have pointed out I don't think is practical) the generation and distribution would have to be localised.  Use it where you generate it rather than trying to supply gigawatts from limited locations and have forests of wires on ugly and vulnerable towers running everywhere etc.

Taking widespread use of ev's out of the equation, having every home fitted with solar and a battery or several would go a very long way to easing the load on the grid. If this would be allowed by gubbermints and big biz whom will miss out on revenue is another question but one thing is for sure, the chances of building nukes here in oz from a public opinion and cost aspect alone is zero. They touted it 20 years ago when the green sentiment was nothing like it is now and the opposition to it was so severe the idea was dropped in weeks.
You may carry on with outright lies and garbage trying to talk up your vested interests but all it would get you here is dismissed as a moron and probably a punch in the face if you kept insulting peoples intelligence with your false claims.
 
   
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How many electric vehicles would it require to supply the utility grid with an extra 1000 Mw for eight hours .

Lets see.  Shouldn't be hard for a smart person to work out even if I am not that person or smart enough.

Lets say every vehicle has a 50 KWh battery and they can " donate 50% of that to the grid.

1000/ .25= 4000 x 8 ( hours) = 32,000 Vehicles.  Maybe I'm off by a decimal point and it's 320,000 Vehicles. No matter.
Quick lookup tells me there are over 16M passenger vehicles and light commercials ( vans, trucks under 4ton capacity) in oz. 18.4M in total being Trucks, trailers, busses, etc.
That means there is 50X the amount of passenger vehicles required ( assuming the higher figure of 320,000) than required to power the grid for 8 hours at 1000Mw if each vehicle was able to donate 50% of it's assumed 50Kwh charge.

You can put endless error into that, assume only 20 % of the vehicle fleet is electric and you are still there very comfortably. Assume they can only contribute 5KW, no matter Assume only 20% are plugged in at any given time and so it goes. You still get a practical number and percentage.

So to answer your question, the answer is a very practical and Doable amount even in a relatively low populated country like OZ.
Run the numbers for the US and you are not even going to need 1 major city to get you over the line!

Of course the question is, With any sort of a first wold grid, why would you need the injection of that sort of power for that many hours in the first place?
The answer is more realistic than the question!
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 18, 2018, 03:46:40 AM
By most reporting there is excess grid capacity in the US, especially after the evening peak, though in some locales distribution will have to be upgraded.  As for solar during the day-  if your home PV is feeding the grid, and your car is slow charging at work after the morning peak is over, you have a net zero carbon situation. The power co's will love this as they will no doubt get a nice profit from your home PV power.

I think every region will have to rely on a different mix of renewables and power storage.  It will all shake out after climate change gets severe enough to wake people up...such as when food production is seriously affected.  The power co.s will still own the grid and despite all their whining they are guaranteed to profit no matter how that role evolves.

I disagree with Glort on public opinion against nukes. I think he's way too optimistic about the public. I think that if solid fueled nuclear fission plants were more profitable, a well funded propaganda campaign would easily manipulate the American public to accept them (or almost anything). Even without changing to safer designs, it would be easy to "safety wash" some trivial new safety feature such as calling them "smart nuclear" and sell it to the public. 

 “No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up.”  Lily Tomlin

I personally think electric cars will add to the daily EMF exposure burden and along with continued expansion of pulsed microwaves and soon millimeter waves (5G) will cause even more serious chronic illness. At some point chronic illness will cripple society. Humans have tremendous propensity to ignore warnings and discredit or marginalize those who either become ill or are the messengers.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 18, 2018, 05:45:02 AM
   33,000 homes with 20Kw hr of batteries . Given an average of 12hr of daylight, with the first two hours after dawn and the last 2 hours prior to sunset . There is 8 hours of charge time and 16hrs of every 24hrs  reliant on batteries.
  How large are the roofs on these homes to support enough PV panels to power the home during the daylight loads of heating, cooling, cooking, entertainment, fridge, freezer etc plus charge 20Kw hr of batteries.
   Over the 16 hrs of non PV generation per day all those batteries can produce is 41 Mw of power.
    As there are losses in charging, discharging and conversion to AC, count on a loosing 20% or more of that 41Mw per hour over 16 hours. Also consider short winter days with the sun at a lower angle .
  As peak demand on the Australian utility grid is 47,000Mw..............good luck with your battery storage. That is 47 million homes . Actually 59 million as lithium batteries should not be operated from 0% to 100% to 0% .
   PV and batteries all sound well and good with noble goals etc. However the practical combination is nuclear baseload, PV daytime peaking with fossil carrying the morning and evening peaks when PV production is lost.     
   Liquid metal or molten salt fission reactors are the solution for utility grid power.
   btw what was the retail price of power prior to the subsidized solar and wind generation being built vs after ?   
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 18, 2018, 06:09:53 AM
However the practical combination is nuclear

Yes, of course it is.  How could you have ever suggested anything else?  ::)
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 18, 2018, 06:14:26 PM
Some of us believe and some do not.  Few things are static.  In 20 years when there could be some possibility of most cars being electric with charging required lots of other factors will have matured including our centralized grid program.  We may even pull our nuclear boats and ships into the center of cities to provide the much needed power for our armies of robots - domestic of course. 

Most of the naysayers I've encountered are often standing right smack dab in the middle of where I want to work.

At this time, for me, electric cars have some real advantages.  While I'm getting my 64 Morris back on the road I'll be happy with the dream car of my thirties and forties.  This years dream cars all are electrically powered.  What would I do if someone developed a petroleum based fuel cell motor?  Buy stock in Saudi Arabia of course.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 18, 2018, 08:34:38 PM

 Buy stock in Saudi Arabia of course.

I never cease to be amazed at why Americans think all ( or the majority) of their oil comes from the Middle east??

As I have tried to point out, at length, electric cars are not the issue. Finding the power to run them is.
I have a LOT of clear roof space and certainly more than the average home owner which I'm filling with panels . I couldn't put enough panels up to keep an electric car charged for my wife's daily Commute let alone charge my Daughters and my car.

Just like oil, when the demand for power goes up, so will the price.  Nuke is not the solution there because completely opposite to the touted " cheap" power, it is in fact the most expensive.

The few times Nuke powered ships have come into our harbors, there have been huge protests and outcrys. Trying to dock one permanently to supply power would be a completely impractical idea and get which ever gubbermint who tried it thrown out on their arses overnight pretty much.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 19, 2018, 05:49:01 PM
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Buy stock in Saudi Arabia of course.

I never cease to be amazed at why Americans think all ( or the majority) of their oil comes from the Middle east??

A lot of stuff in this world amaze me.  Like taking jokes literally.  Not seeing the metaphor. 

Have a nice day.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on April 19, 2018, 06:22:19 PM
 plus one on that Casey
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 20, 2018, 12:32:08 AM

 Buy stock in Saudi Arabia of course.

I never cease to be amazed at why Americans think all ( or the majority) of their oil comes from the Middle east??

As I have tried to point out, at length, electric cars are not the issue. Finding the power to run them is.
I have a LOT of clear roof space and certainly more than the average home owner which I'm filling with panels . I couldn't put enough panels up to keep an electric car charged for my wife's daily Commute let alone charge my Daughters and my car.

Just like oil, when the demand for power goes up, so will the price.  Nuke is not the solution there because completely opposite to the touted " cheap" power, it is in fact the most expensive.

The few times Nuke powered ships have come into our harbors, there have been huge protests and outcrys. Trying to dock one permanently to supply power would be a completely impractical idea and get which ever gubbermint who tried it thrown out on their arses overnight pretty much.
[/quote

 Most of the protestors are bored people, that are not cold, sick or hungry with time on their hands . Hey are looking for drama , attention and meaning to their existence.
    These same malcontents need to spend A few months in nations where food, housing, healthcare , education, heating, cooling, transportation , communication , safety and security are luxuries .
 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 20, 2018, 12:38:23 AM
There is a lot of oil produced in the Middle East however most is destined for Eastern Asia and Western Europe . The US is supplied mostly from Canada and  Venezuela.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mike90045 on April 20, 2018, 02:46:01 AM
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......The few times Nuke powered ships have come into our harbors, there have been huge protests and outcrys. Trying to dock one permanently to supply power would be a completely impractical idea and get which ever gubbermint who tried it thrown out on their arses overnight pretty much. 

I'd bet the story would be different if 3/4 of the city had no power
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 20, 2018, 03:20:54 AM

I'm not sure it would.

What I do think would happen is there would be a huge outcry for more renewable investment and Subsidies for home batteries etc.
 Some people especially in the business sector would  accept a ship as a very temporary measure but I don't think that would change the overall protests and outcry.

The only thing nuke we have here is a reactor that makes Medical Isotopes and that isn't popular either.

 The trained mentality is already overwhelming renewable's and the gubberments here have been pushing that down our throats as well. Much was made of having to sign the paris agreement which is totally and utterly useless to us  but was hugely supported.  Whoever let things go to the point a nuke ship ( not that we have any) would have to be parked in the harbour to provide Power would only be heard of again when they went missing or their bodies washed up on the beach.

There was brief talk of putting a reactor out in the dessert a few years ago, a US company from memory wanted to do it but the population lit up about that so much even the nuke industry spin doctors ran away from it.

No power so we parked a nuke battleship in the harbour to provide it would still not go down well at all.
The only thing that would be accepted here is Solar, wind and you may get some Hydro past approval but that would be a job as well.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 20, 2018, 12:04:05 PM

I'm not sure it would.

What I do think would happen is there would be a huge outcry for more renewable investment and Subsidies for home batteries etc.
 Some people especially in the business sector would  accept a ship as a very temporary measure but I don't think that would change the overall protests and outcry.

The only thing nuke we have here is a reactor that makes Medical Isotopes and that isn't popular either.

 The trained mentality is already overwhelming renewable's and the gubberments here have been pushing that down our throats as well. Much was made of having to sign the paris agreement which is totally and utterly useless to us  but was hugely supported.  Whoever let things go to the point a nuke ship ( not that we have any) would have to be parked in the harbour to provide Power would only be heard of again when they went missing or their bodies washed up on the beach.

There was brief talk of putting a reactor out in the dessert a few years ago, a US company from memory wanted to do it but the population lit up about that so much even the nuke industry spin doctors ran away from it.

No power so we parked a nuke battleship in the harbour to provide it would still not go down well at all.
The only thing that would be accepted here is Solar, wind and you may get some Hydro past approval but that would be a job as well.

  I wonder how those in favour of wind, solar and demand coal fossil to be torn down. How do they accept the cost and pollution from fleets of standby/peaking medium diesel gensets ? Or are they so out of touch with reality that these social justice warriors and public . That they are either unaware of the diesel gensets or they believe anything is cleaner than coal ? 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 20, 2018, 03:07:48 PM

I think it's 2 fold.

Firstly, the gubbermint that did it try to hide it.  matter of fact, they outright blatently LIE about it and make false claims they are pulled up on but try to sell black as white in order to hide their guilt.
The independent media cover it now and then but the biased  mainstream pretend it didn't happen and just run another " Every car on the road will be electric in 10 years time" crap distraction article.

Secondly, the ones so hell bent on tearing down Coal power stations are complete hypocrites and will make endless garbage  justifications because the green washed Gubbermint of that state is responsible. That being the case, they turn a blind eye, make some more excuses, blame someone else and shove their heads further up their green backsides.

There is a LONG and well defined history here even in recent times of stuff ups of the Green movement in power. That's why their support has gone from on par with the major parties to a landslide of being completely out on there backsides come the next election.
This is just a recent one in a long list.

Still, you say the magic word " Green" and all the disciples forgive their worshiped Daiety, make all sorts of excuses to defend them and carry on with the next round of stupidity that causes more problems that what it was supposed to solve.


I was actually reading an article on these generators tonight.
The state run by the green goobers who blew up the power stations and caused the whole state to go into total darkness, Twice, are now blaming the opposition federal gubbermint for putting these generators in.  It's no secret they did this to stop the lights going out not only in that state, but causing a nationwide grid collapse as the rest of the country tried to prop them up.... which wasn't possible as there was no where near enough excess generating capacity to do so.

They spin doctor it to the other partys fault by saying they haven't supported renewables enough like the technology of today was here 20 years ago and there is unlimited barrels of money to construct things where the very people that want them protest about the location of each every damn proposal of where to put the things they say they want!!

Ummm, you planned to blow those power stations up for over a year.
 Did you not stop to think where the juice was going to come from after you took them out?
Clearly not. 

Worshipping their green religion and ridding yourself of your manufactured devil was more important than thinking about what the effects of cutting your own legs off might do to the rest of your well being.

A child would say to themselves they better hold on to that toy they don't like so they have something to play with till the one they want comes along.
If the greens had waited till the renewables were in place and THEN blown up their hated coal stations, they would have actually got some respect and seems like they had a brain cell between them.

Leaving the whole state in the dark because they were in such a gut busting hurry to do something that not only achieved nothing, but went backwards at a huge rate..... Well lets just say there is a reason they are slipping off the shallow end of the popularity polls.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 20, 2018, 08:19:18 PM
Quote
The few times Nuke powered ships have come into our harbors, there have been huge protests and outcrys. Trying to dock one permanently to supply power would be a completely impractical idea and get which ever gubbermint who tried it thrown out on their arses overnight pretty much.

Right out of the Trump play book.  Neat stuff. 
     First step is to discount the adversary. 
     Second is to cherry pick or redirect their protest.  (These do nothing fat, dumb and happy thrill seekers were anti nuclear explosive devices rather than just nuclear power systems.)
     Third is to discount the adversary.
     Fourth is to redirect their message or point to failures of the proposed agenda.

Freedom of assembly is part of the US Constitution.  Protesting is also an important part of our cultural political heritage.  It's also an important part of governance for all systems of government. 

It's tricky projecting changes that represent the future while holding on to current attitudes and capacities.  As in glorts example of solar panels supplying all of the household needs.  His assertions seem absolutely valid given efficiencies of today's panels, automobiles and use patterns.  The rest of the world will change our attitudes and choices. 

We may start choosing to use vehicles more realistic to our needs.  Smaller vehicles for most trips.  Cars and sustainable power generators will become more efficient.  Car sharing and renting should become more realistic.

Isn't a great time to be alive.  All of these exciting choices coming to the front.  Choosing between a bit more cleaner living vs a lot more cleaner living on this planet.

Hey campers!  Pack it in - Pack it out.  Leave this campsite better than when you arrived.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 20, 2018, 10:05:13 PM
Fairly powerful electric bikes/trikes (3k and 6kw at 30 mph) get about 30-50 watt hr/mile.  Telsa model 3 is it's most efficient car so far, around 237 watt hr/mile.  So there is plenty of room for improvement if we stop thinking of cars as a penis substitute/military tank, and match our needed range to our actual driving needs. (Hauling more batteries adds weight, which means bigger motor, which means more batteries...)

I'm still pissed that the 50+ mpg 3 cylinder compact diesel cars that Europeans have had for 20 years don't exist in the US.



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 20, 2018, 11:42:28 PM

I'm still pissed that the 50+ mpg 3 cylinder compact diesel cars that Europeans have had for 20 years don't exist in the US.

And this is a sticking point I have with Hybrids and electrics.

We have the compact Diesels here that run forever on the smell of an oil rag as they say.
The media and others are always talking about hybrids but some of those  Euro Diesels get as good or better mileage than electrics of similar size.
They cost less and because the Euro emissions standards are so High, You could all but breathe the exhaust directly.

Unfortunately being diesel and everything fossil fueled being the work of the Devil atm, they get rubbished rather than the revering they deserve.

I owned a Peugeot 405 years ago. 2L Turbo. Beautifully comfortable interior, Used 6L / 100Km on a trip loaded to the gunwhales with the family and half a ton of our crap. Rolling along in first gear with the clutch out and mashing the throttle would smoke the tyres with ease.  The rest of the time it would pull you back in the seat hard and this was not a performance model by any stretch.

A friend thought the consumption I was getting was High compared to his but I was running it on veg oil which has less energy than Diesel so that explained a bit plus I had the fueling wound up so it pulled harder still on the top end. With gentle driving on diesel he could get his down to 4.5L / 100Km and had plenty of figures to back it up.

In this rush/ proclivity to go electric, I think other more practical solutions for right now are being over looked. These economical diesels would give some breathing time to get the infrastructure in place to trans sist to electrics f that is the way things will go.  It's all one sided, must go electric NOW and then complain like in several articles I read yesterday the infrastructure with charging hasn't even begun in reality.

I was also reading articles yesterday of predictions of all cars sold here being electric by 2030. Another article quoted numbers that .01% of vehicles sold here now are electric. To go from that to 100% in 12 years would take a product saturation never seen before in the industrial world. Given the problems even the advocates of electrics point out, the chances of all the cars sold being electric in 12 years time ( we have 4 electrics available for sale here atm)  is a VERY long shot to the point of absolute fantasy.
Maybe in 20 years which I still very much doubt but in 12 years...... More over hype that does the cause more harm than good.


And one Comment I saw on a green forum was also very telling.
It was from a greenwashed guy that had spent a couple of thousand bucks on an electric 3 wheeler he was trying to import.  He wanted it for his wife whom worked close to home and wanted to provide her with a clean alternative to her car.
He'd done his homework and got something that was legal in other parts of the world and met 1st world safety standards with lights, blinkers etc.

He was saying how the thing was held up in customs here and was going to be crushed because electric vehicles of this type ( even electric Bicycles ) are not permitted on the roads here.
He lamented how the heck was all this electrification of the fleet going to take place when he wasn't even allowed to get a 3 wheeled electric bike in the place? He spoke of how something like this could do a lot for inner city congestion and electric cars still caused the same traffic jams and took up the same space on the roads.  He made valid and sound points and showed Gubbermint statements about the commitment to electrics, clean air etc but then how they were out of touch and preventing the ideal of what they were saying happening.

It is typical. All the hype, all the Hoo haa by the gubbermints and then in reality, if there isn't a buck in it for them, in fact a lost buck, Nope, no way. Just keep listening to what we say, keep drinking the Koolaide and don't try to do anything real and practical.


Having run into a few Teslas in the flesh of late, I have to say they look like a typical American car.  Huge.
When I saw one at the shopping centre a few weeks ago on display, most people were surprised at the size of them. I heard a couple of people say they were too big and they couldn't open the Gull wing doors in their garage. I have a barn type shed and there is no way I'd get clearance in my shed to open those back doors on the beams.  For the typical garage attached to the house here, laughable.  Car is probably too long to get it in anyway.
Couple more comments I heard were from people asking how they would ever park it. Young sales guy fresh out of school jumped on the opportunity to point out the cameras on the thing but he missed the point people are scared of outright bulk.

Maybe if they can ever get any model 3's built and they are more compact, they might be more acceptable.  People here have got away from the tanks of the '50's and 70's and the average Japanese cars suits most people fine whom don't have the mentality they need a " Pickup truck" to haul... whatever it is they think they have to haul around everywhere to and from dropping the kids at footy as they think in other places.

Given the biggest selling vehicle forever in the US has been the F-150, for electrics to get a real foot in the door they are going to have to make an electric version of one of those. When they do that, electrics will have some real credibility with the US public.
Of course they will have to carry 3 overloaded tons, tow an over weight trailer up a mountain side at 60 MPH and have a 400 Mile range as seems to be the expectation of many now.

Soccer Mums demand a lot from their Pick up trucks it seems!  :0)

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 21, 2018, 02:24:13 AM
Tesla is a large vehicle to have enough internal volume for all the batteries . With wide  enough wheel track and long wheel base to carry all that battery weight with a low enough Center of gravity .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 21, 2018, 03:26:36 AM
Agreed, the images I've seen of the Tesla show the entire floor pan filled with flat modules full of batteries.  The curb weight of the model S is 4400-4500 lbs depending on options.  The model S battery alone is 1200 lbs.

My first Toyota Corolla Sedan, 2 door around 1969 vintage had a curb weight of 1542 lbs. 

This lust for power and range in electrics is simply bad design to appease public insanity. The chassis, suspension, battery, and motor systems are WAY too heavy, with each adding more of the others.  Then tires, brakes, and wheels have be truck sized, and you must have power assisted steering and brakes.



 


 






 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 21, 2018, 06:28:49 AM
Tesla is a large vehicle to have enough internal volume for all the batteries . With wide  enough wheel track and long wheel base to carry all that battery weight with a low enough Center of gravity .

No need to make it big at all. 
Leaf and others are electric and they aren't anywhere near the size of the X.
I'd say the thing needs all the batteries BECAUSE of it's size not it's size is dictated by the batteries.

And the batteries may be another sticking point in the change to electric Vehicles. From what I'm reading, the current battery " ingredients" are in pretty limited supply so they are already looking at getting away from that tech but have no viable contenders as yet.
I wonder if anyone is Developing Flux capacitors? Could be a good business to invest in. Low frequency, Semi Braffed reversing tremoloid phase aligners could be in big demand in the future as well!  :laugh:

A motoring organisation here whom is pro electric did an investigation as to why the uptake and interest in electrics is low here.
A big thing they found with people who said they would like one but would not actually buy one was resale value. The few electrics here that get offered up for sale are extremely hard to shift and resale and trade ins are terrible.
This will be a big thing for electrics to overcome I think.  Another sticking point was repairs and spares.  People were concerned if they had an accident how long it would take to get parts and who was going to fix the things?  The other thing was is they did have a problem, how much and how long spares would take to get.  The organisation also found that there are only a handful of dealers around the country with people qualified to work on the vehicles they sell.... IE, Tesla, Renault and Nissan.
Seems a real Chicken or the egg dilemma

Those working on Vehicles  will go from being experts in mechanical things and often knowing beans about electricity to not knowing what  a " Gearbox " is but being electrical genius's!
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 21, 2018, 07:41:00 AM
After looking at some weight figures for cars, it seems you're right, Glort.  Tesla just made a big heavy car.

The Nissan Leaf is 3500 lbs and it's battery weighs 480 lbs. 
The newly hatched Tesla model three curb weight is 3549 lbs...can't find the battery weight but it's allegedly 30% less than the S model 1200 lbs.

A step in the right direction but still double the weight of my late 60's Corolla .  Curb weights of new Corollas are now up from 1500 (1968) to 2850 (2018) lbs, engine from 50 to 140 hp. 





Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 21, 2018, 09:18:26 AM

Tesla has been making a new size Cell. Currently they use 18650's, Laptop cells. The new ones are larger and If I remember right, a Higher voltage that is more in line with 12 V architecture.
The new Cells are supposed to be the most efficient size for packaging and energy density. They may be what's going into the model 3 and giving them some weight and Volume savings or allowing a greater capacity in the same volume.

Some of the Teslas are offered with different battery packs for longer range.  I don't know if they do one but an accessory pack may be an advantage for long trips but then the cost would probably make it prohibititive for occasional use.

Now, If you could have that pack plugged into your power wall at home and then put it in the car to give you more range when you are away, THAT would be something worthwhile!

It's funny how many people on the net talk about covering electric cars with solar cells to charge them up when they are parked or even give power when going along without realising a larger than normal set of panels on a home roof would take about a week to charge up a high capacity battery like a Tesla has.  Even a small electric car is going to take days in good clear summer sun.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 21, 2018, 07:48:52 PM
As a Elon fan I must admit I'm always surprised about how big the S and X unit are.  I too am tired of the "My zero to 60 number is better than yours."  However there is hope.  I like the new(ish) three wheel units that are just coming out.  Bringing into consideration the way cars are actually used VS the dreams of middle aged adolescents is a big step in the right direction.

https://www.arcimoto.com/ (https://www.arcimoto.com/)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gei5LgVwV0E&t=5s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gei5LgVwV0E&t=5s)

We all know these are niche cars but a refreshing direction for transportation to head.  The arcimoto would really work in Hawaii.  The Mecanica Solo might be more suited for the temporate zones.  And then there's this one that is a bit closer to the big peepee syndrome but would be a great way to commute to work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMWveqqMUY0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMWveqqMUY0) 

and the Buck Rogers anwer to Edison 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTvhkRn_R9U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTvhkRn_R9U)

Food for thought.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 21, 2018, 08:32:05 PM
Interesting links Casey, thanks.  By some miracle we're back on topic.

The Edison 2 very light car seems by far and away the most well thought out design.  Good mileage at higher speed is highly dependent on air drag/aerodynamics.  So unless it is to be a city car at low speeds, it must be addressed. The emphasis on light weight helps everywhere else.  Their design team are all well seasoned engineers with serious experience in their respective areas.  Very impressive work. 

edison2.com





Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 21, 2018, 11:49:35 PM

One thing those Links show is Tesla are not going to have the market to themselves as everything  they say and do seems to indicate. So many options and the big boys haven't even got started yet.  When GM, Ford, Chrysler Toymotor and VW decide it's time to get serious and leverage their Development. production and distribution might into the market, Hold on Tesla!

The press and public seem to think the big guys haven't got their act together yet.  I'll bet they are monitoring the market every day and don't believe the market potential is profitable so far. I bet when they do, it will be an electric avalanche. Once one plays it's hand they will all follow quickly in order to have market share.

2 Things strike me with the cars linked in the Vids:

Most of them don't look like they would pass our ADR's, Australian Design Rules which cover vehicle design, standards and safety to permit vehicles to be road legal here. 
As factory Built cars they would have two options. Come in under a limited import license which means they won't be able to have many which causes problems with dealers, parts availability and repairs... OR... They have the things certified which is a multi million dollar exercise and requires crash testing of at least one, I think 3 of the things.  I think that would be the sticking point for most of them.

We have 3 wheelers here in the form of Can am's  but they are a VERY rare thing to see on the roads.
Other big hurdle to these cars right now would be yet again, Price. I'm sure they would sell to the market that wanted an antidote to a Mid life crisis or as a gift from Daddy warbucks to his spoilt little Girl, but selling in any sort of number as a transport alternative..... Can't see it happening for a Long time yet.

There is another competitor on the scene actively being worked on by Vw and others.  Super efficient Diesels.
They have the futuristic look of the EV's and get 150 MPG or better.  Price is still way out there but you could take them to the dealers in established network and if you wanted to drive one cross country only stopping every 300 Miles for about 5 Min to fill the 2 gallon tank, you could.

While EV's are getting developed, so are conventional Vehicles despite the Hoopla about everything being electric by tomorrow.
Just isn't flavor of the month headlines right now.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 22, 2018, 12:09:04 AM

I was looking some more at electric bikes.
Hooley Dooley! They race these things and have Hubs they can get 20 Kw out of.... and more!
These Bikes will go as fast as the suicide Jockey in the saddle will take them pretty much. If one wanted to produce a cheap and economical form of electric transport for daily commute, the parts and tech are already there.

Stick a 20KW hub in each corner of even a small production car and you are going to have something that's fast as hell and would still have room for enough batteries to go any distance you wanted in a normal work commoute. A Subaru Impreza sans engine, gearbox and Running gear is only about 500Kg with interiour still intact. Picked enough up with forklifts to know. You could probably pull another 100Kg out of that if you lost the AC and a few other things before you really put effort into lightening it up.  Being an AWD, all you would need to do would be attach a bike hub  ( or similar small motor ) to each drive shaft, put in batteries and controllers ( heaps of space now the engine, gearbox, diff and fuel tank has gone along with exhaust)  and you have a crash test approved shell ( still with airbags etc) That's only slightly down on power but probably got a heap more torque the the original Vehicle.

There are a lot lighter cars around as well but an impreza is a proper 5 seater and has all the comforts bar the AC which amazingly, some people CAN live without.  For heating you could always duct air from the controller or battery cooling.

Maybe cottage industry's for conversions will really take off one day beyond the limited amount being done for real enthusiasts now.
Might also see at some point the same cars being offered in electric and IC in the meantime.

Still going to be interesting to see how the grid copes with the increased electric demand though.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 22, 2018, 12:56:22 AM
The electric bike stuff is getting pretty impressive and affordable. 

I've thought about a way-behind-me electric pusher cart for a recumbent trike for when I'm not able to drive anymore; I can't walk as far as my mailbox which is 1/2 mile away.  No registration, no insurance needed in my state which wouldn't hurt either. 

The 2018 Subaru Impreza has a curb weight of around 3000 lbs- minus engine and tranny for electric conversion, but still, not a lightweight car. Maybe the Australia version is different?

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 22, 2018, 06:26:06 AM
  The best all around compromise to build an EV is the Chevy Bolt.
  The Leaf is a kid's go-kart made street legal, doesn't even have battery thermal regulation.
  As previously stated the Tesla has impressive highway miles at the expense of cost, size and weight. The energy required to accelerate and decelerate all that Tesla mass in stop and go around town driving makes it little better than the Bolt in range.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 22, 2018, 09:57:42 AM
The electric bike stuff is getting pretty impressive and affordable. 

I guess it would depend on your outlook. To me it's still not cheap but 20Kw+ from a motor that is in the hub of a bicycle is VERY impressive to be sure!

Quote
I've thought about a way-behind-me electric pusher cart for a recumbent trike for when I'm not able to drive anymore; I can't walk as far as my mailbox which is 1/2 mile away.  No registration, no insurance needed in my state which wouldn't hurt either. 

Does not seem to me like it would be much of an option for you.  With teh motor and controllers I would assume there is a terrible lot of EMF there that would affect you Bruce.  Whats are the laws regarding something powered by a small electric start China Diesel?  they come 7 and 10 HP which should be enough for what you describe.
Would you get around the regulations as a mobility devise/ disabled driver?  Would seem to be a far better option for you. Take out the alternator stator and you should have no EMF at all.

Quote
The 2018 Subaru Impreza has a curb weight of around 3000 lbs- minus engine and tranny for electric conversion, but still, not a lightweight car. Maybe the Australia version is different?

No, they are heavy here too. Very little difference in them between Countries. You are right, the new ones are not light and have been getting heavier every model actually.  The new ones have the CVT transmissions and that is a Monster. Not sure what it weighs but having pulled a couple out now, I can tell you it's a heck of a lot more than the old ones.
They run fiercly hot as well. things have hig coolers on them and thermal blankets to stop the heat radiating into the cabin.  Engines are all variable cam timing as well  so thinking about it, Most of the extra weight over the older models is probably in the running gear.

I was more thinking of something a bit older in my comment though. Couldn't see anyone chopping up a current model car to electrify it but that was just my thinking and may not be everyone elses.

10 Yo car is still very comfortable and as you are going to remove most of the things that really wear out anyway... wouldn't make that much difference apart from the weight difference.

I don't know what would be a current model that is lightish in any make. I'd probably think something Korean might be the go.
Myself I'm not that concerned with driving new cars and it wouldn't occur to me to chop up a current model.  I like older cars anyway. 10 Yo would be perfectly satisfactory for me and give me all the comfort I needed.
If I am going to take out all the running gear, then I'm less worried about age than I am condition but price would be significant in the base car I started with.    :laugh:
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 22, 2018, 04:17:18 PM
I agree that for me, an electric pusher cart would be a serious technical challenge...but I suppose that would be part of the appeal- can it be done? (Which is a lot more fun when you have staff and budget not out of your own measly pocket.)  My shop at my first home here in the White Mountains was 24x24 feet and had a window mounted evaporative cooler for ventilation on the west wall, with my bench near the east.  The induction motor was a two speeed 1/2 hp.  I could only use it on low, and I put a loose wrap of grain oriented electrical steel (aka GOES) around the motor  to reduce the stray magnetic field by 50%.  Still, it was 4 microgauss at my workbench...the limit where I could work for a some hours and not have a whopping headache and MS flare up later.  So for the pusher cart I was thinking multiple insulated concentric cans of mumetal around the can type (not hub) motor (each a 50% reduction) and I'd have to do my own controller to reduce high frequency EMI.  Plastic optical fiber forward to throttle controls to avoid the antenna effect.  A 10 foot shaft from cart to rear of trike would likely be the minimum.  Motors are a bitch to shield, but the principles were developed in WWII to avoid magnetic sea mines.

I'm still ticked off that Mark Cherry's smartplugs didn't attract any interest besides myself and some DARPA one fuel forward program money.  A smartplug lets you convert any gas or propane engine to a low pressure diesel...  zero EMI from spark system or electronic injection.  I have a tough time with air cooled diesel noise and exhaust and would prefer a propane engine fueled car if I could get rid of the damned magneto-spark.  I did an alcohol fueled conversion of a Honda 2hp 4 cycle outboard to homemade smartplug that worked out OK, but that was possible because the catalytic reaction of methanol fuel and platinum is very strong so I could use a small RC glow plug in the smartplug chamber. Gas or propane fuel requires more platinum wire and more fuel/air flow over it per Mark's later patents.

PS  Glort was right on the mark on the used EV issue.  I read a couple articles and the 3 year depreciation is a horror show.  Interesting the article mentions the old Chevy Volt (not Bolt) as having very long lived batteries... like 300K miles. 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109640_lessons-learned-from-early-electric-car-2011-nissan-leaf-at-90000-miles/page-2

In reading about the batteries in the Leaf, Tesla and Volt, as B&D noted, the Leaf has no cooling and the poor cell management we noted in another thread...thus so many used leaf battery modules for sale.  When crowing about how little owners pay for charging (via coal), they conveniently forget the ongoing battery replacement cost.  If your replacement battery (probably $800 in labor to get to it or more) is $40k and you get 80,000 miles from it, that's $0.50 a mile for battery replacement cost plus pennies per mile charging.   Petrol fuel cost at say 30 mpg at $3/gallon, that's $0.10 per mile for fuel.  So with 400K mile batteries at $40K replacement cost, you can just break even with a gas car.



 

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 22, 2018, 07:18:51 PM
Quote
Most of them don't look like they would pass our ADR's, Australian Design Rules which cover vehicle design, standards and safety to permit vehicles to be road legal here.
The three wheel crowd are currently getting around this here in the states by getting them classified as motorcycles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMuubBNW4Tg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMuubBNW4Tg)

There is also some work being done on a new classification for light weight vehicles.  I sse mention of them but I can't find any links this morning.  I'm searching for "autocar" or something like that.

As for safety; you're just hanging your sweet ass out there a bit when you jump into one of these light weight units.  Single vehicle crashes might hold some advantages for them but the other irresistible force transportation devices could be really bad for the light weights.  They still look safer than two wheel units. 

Speaking of the two wheel units have you seen the stand alone two wheelers.  Wow.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Okf283Ct-NY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Okf283Ct-NY)  And electric too.

I apologize for getting us back on topic for a moment.  I'm thinking that we either get our heads out into the bright sunlight on personal transportation or dip the entire planet in concrete or tarmac.  I've always liked the "For Rent" and "For Sale" signs in downtown Seattle that over looked the freeways and also read: "If you lived here you'd already be home."

I still wonder if diesel will every really make a comeback.  Especially here in the states.  I like the power curve but the stuff that's too small to see or smell reports to really take away health outlooks.  The expected life of Americans has gone down for the last two years.  This is a really new wrinkle.  I think it has much more to do with stupid food and lifestyle choices than with dirty power generation but if we were making better food choices we'd probably also make better generation choices as well.  No, I'm not turning my back on Lister or Witte for that matter.  Extraordinary devices will always have a home here whether they were developed in 1920 or 2018.


Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 23, 2018, 05:36:49 AM
Read an article on the Chevy Bolt.  Presently $15,700 for a replacement battery, the original is under warranty for 100K or 150K miles depending on state. So presently 16 cents a mile at the 100K mile figure.  If you make it to 200K that's 8 cents/mile.   Add charging power costs and it's still no bargain compared to a gas car's fuel at 10 cents a mile.  If the batteries come down in price dramatically, or last longer then it will catch on.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 23, 2018, 10:29:52 AM

I don't know about other Electrics, but tesla's here ate least are WAAAY more exy to run than a petrol vehicle.  I Imagine other cars in other places bar a couple of the Nordic countries maybe are the same.

From The Tesla page at:
https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/supercharger
under the Bs heading of " Less than the cost of petrol"  (it's this kind of outright lies and Bullshit the EV/ green/ Tesla crowd have to tell that shits me to tears)

You will see a pic of a car and a super charger and a graph that shows a Model S traveling the FIRST 1500 Km costs $97 in Electricity.
Note the fine print here, that's AFTER they give you a 400 Kwh Credit.  They base the cost of power on .35c Kwh which is a creditable average figure.

They Price a petrol car doing 7.7L 100 KM @ $1.15/ L @ $133.
That sort of consumption would be what you would get from a largish vehicle here and the price per liter although widely variable is the sort of figure I'd expect to see where I am.

Now remember, This is for the FIRST 1500 Kw where you have the 400Kwh Credit. At 35c KWH, that's worth $140.
No one is going to drive a car just 1500Km ( 940ish Miles?)  so if we look at the next 1500 km and every 1500 KM there after, we see the tesla is now going to cost a whopping $270 in power but the petrol car is still going to cost the same $133.

So in fact, after the first 1500 Km, the Tesla costs $133 MORE  ( Over Double) than the petrol vehicle.

Seriously, I doesn't know who is more freaking stupid, Tesla to put something so transparent and thinly veiled on their site or the fan boys and people with too much money whom would buy one of these things or just the EV washed in general that claim EV's are Cheaper to run.  ::) ::)

I Looked at the Bolt in the US ( don't have them here and their numbers which they do not show the calcs for on face value have the bolt saving $300 a year over " Gas".
On our prices " Gas" is about half of what we pay and power about 1/3rd. Don't see the calculation and there is mention of a $7500 credit.  Wether the calculations include that to make the Bolt more attractive I don't know but seems likely. If it takes a $7500 credit which apparently isn't applicable in all US states to get ahead a measly $325.50 a year ( $7.05  week) then I'd certainly say the whole thing of EV's being cheaper to run is a great stinking, steaming pile of unmitigated lies.

Even if it's $325 saving straight up, how many people are really going to be concerned about a pissant saving like that?
And again, as predictable as sunrise, they harp on about the savings on oil Changes like you have to do one every damn week.  You can  get them done anywhere here for $60, $280 a year?  Yeah, go out and buy another house and pay off the mortgage with money to throw around like that.

And of course none of this is touching the very valid point Bruce makes about battery life.
Ironicaly enough again, I was just watching a Vid last night where a University professor whom is wheelchair Bound removed a battery pack as if replacing it.  I don't know what it took to get it out the car in the first place as they had what looked like the floorpan sitting on stands but if any of the rest of the procedure was anything to go by, it would not have been easy, quick or cheap to have someone do it.

I wonder how many of these cars will have their batteries replaced?
I can see the cars being offloaded cheap when the packs start getting weak but I wonder, who is going to be prepared to spend what will have to be the better part of $20K on a small car that's already done 100K Miles?
On our average mileage, that's going to be about an 8 Yo car.

Maybe some of the DIY 'ers will make up their own packs out of used laptop batteries like they do powerwalls now. Maybe some will just throw in an amount of Lead acid forklift batteries and have the things be able to do 50 Miles or something short just for grocery Getters.

No, wait, what am I saying???
In the US you need an F-250 with a 7.3L Turbo diesel don't you?  :laugh:
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 23, 2018, 02:18:18 PM
Bikes maybe an option in Australia but here not even snow tires make a bike rideable in blizzards .
 Regarding home builds, conversions and cottage industry EV’s . The percentage of the population that can spin wrenches and use a multimeter is steadily dwindling . Unless the vehicle manufacture is a large brand name with a dealership in every town . Who wants to risk being stuck without service support .
   Extreme mileage diesels in a micro vehicle at steady highway operation is one thing. It is simple enough to build a diesel with excellent efficiency operating at wide open throttle/full fuel rack at peak torque rpms . Fine for generators , irrigation pumps , marine propulsion and ploughing a thousand acres of corn field .   However operation of a light highway vehicle is every else than the conditions described above for high fuel efficiency and operation of tier IV emissions equipment .
   The EV is the environmentalist’s wet dream , charging on solar or wind turbines . Then again there is the real world where the greenie’s solution to all the world’s problems actually makes more trouble than it solves .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 23, 2018, 02:52:04 PM
Bikes maybe an option in Australia but here not even snow tires make a bike rideable in blizzards .

Hardly Likely to be a problem. Only morons would attempt to ride a bike in a blizzard and I imagine not too many people would take a car out in one either unless they really have to .
I'm pretty sure most places don't have blizzards all year round and for those that do get some sunshine and warm weather, a bike might be something they would enjoy.


Quote
Regarding home builds, conversions and cottage industry EV’s . The percentage of the population that can spin wrenches and use a multimeter is steadily dwindling . Unless the vehicle manufacture is a large brand name with a dealership in every town . Who wants to risk being stuck without service support .

True enough.
I don't see it as any different to the Veg fuel thing I have been involved with for 15 Years. It's certainly not for everyone but for some whom don't mind getting their hands dirty, like a challenge and independence, there are some very exciting options out there for them.
As for getting stuck without service support, I am one of the few people that could work on my own vehicle and I'd be so arrogant to say as far as where the fuel is concerned, there would be few if any in the world that know more than I do about it.  You get that way when you actualy experiment and test with something for 15 years instead of just doing what the guy before you did.

I see a good many people on YT for instance that are tinkering with EV's and making reliable vehicles for a fraction of the price of new production types.
These people will always be around and i'd venture to say are the ones that will give the the EV thing legs if it's ever going to get them.
Like the veg oil fuel thing, I think EV's will catch on at least in a niche market but I think there will be a LOT of problems if they are pushed as something for everyone and to replace the IC engine.


Quote
Extreme mileage diesels in a micro vehicle at steady highway operation is one thing. It is simple enough to build a diesel with excellent efficiency operating at wide open throttle/full fuel rack at peak torque rpms . Fine for generators , irrigation pumps , marine propulsion and ploughing a thousand acres of corn field .   However operation of a light highway vehicle is every else than the conditions described above for high fuel efficiency and operation of tier IV emissions equipment .

You are clearly unaware of the sort of Mileage European Vehicles get. They are neither micro Vehicles and they are not getting extreme mileage but 40-50 MPG+ out of a family Vehicle is a big improvement over what US made vehicles average.  Even my brother in laws Japanese 1 ton Pickup can get 1000KM on a 65L tank Highway travel.

 
Quote
The EV is the environmentalist’s wet dream , charging on solar or wind turbines . Then again there is the real world where the greenie’s solution to all the world’s problems actually makes more trouble than it solves .

I have to agree with you there.
Like many other green things, I'm not against them per se, I just get fed to death with the constant lies, exaggerations, spin doctoring and ramming these ideals down everyones throat like if you have a different opinion or even dare to question them, there is something very wrong with you.
The fact these religions have to be lied about and con people to believe in them like the Tesla rubbish I quoted above is a prime example.

You are also right about green washed solutions causing more trouble than they solve.
There is clearly an inability and discontent to work towards a better outcome, anything labeled green has to be rushed in to replace old tried and proven technology's as fast as possible and way before practical.

I give you our very own green idiot idea of blowing up coal fired power stations here and then having to put in DIESEL generators that consume a tanker load of fuel an HOUR to keep the lights on.
The green mentality does not allow for rational and planned thinking. they could have said  We need to get rid of those dirty power stations, It's going to take 2 years to get enough reliable renewable in place to do that, lets start working on it so we can get rid of them and keep the lights on.
Nup, greenie mentality is they are terrible things we have to get rid of right now so lets blow them up and celebrate..... in the dark.

I also think that EV's at the present time have a lot to answer for and they are FAR from the clean and green things they are hyped up to be.
I bet their cradle to the grave impact on the planet is a lot worse than IC's but there would be so much spin doctoring and greenwashing I expect it's impossible to find out.


I just cannot fathom why these people refuse to do things in an orderly and logical manner to make a seamless transition to renewables instead of being in such a gut busting rush to have everything NOW when so much clearly does not work or does more damage overall than what it replaces. 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 23, 2018, 03:12:04 PM

Was talking to my retired Mechanic Next door neighbour today about keeping an eye on his place while he is away on another great gray nomad Caravan trip.  I asked about his Nissan Diesel he tows with and was amazed to find it's 10 years old not the 2-3 I thought.

He's 70 and was saying that car would see him out. Something came up about Electric cars and he made a real valid point straight off.
If he replaced his Diesel with an EV, he couldn't even tow a decent box trailer.  We have a very small amount of EV's here but I'm not sure how many ATM can actually be fitted with a tow bar and what their capacity would be.  I think 1 of the teslas can tow but even so, I wonder how they would ever cope with towing a 20Ft van like my neighbour has.
Boats, Horsefloats, moving trailers and even box trailers going to the tip would be a problem for most EV's.

His 2.5L turblow diesel does fine with his big 2.5 ton van it and even has a fuel consumption down in the 10L/100Km range hauling it around.
-IF- an EV could do that, I would hate to think how long it would take to get anywhere stopping every 2-3 Hours if that, to recharge the things.

A "quick"  trip around Oz wouldn't take a month, it would take 6. At least.
And then you'd have to take a generator with you to make it from town to town on probably 3 sides of the country.    :laugh:

I can see the signs now.  Instead of last Fuel for XXX Miles signs, It will be " Last electrical outlet  for 50 Miles."
There will be a roadhouse with some Charging stations all powered by a thumping great Cummins Diesel generator recharging all the "clean " vehicles that have no emissions.

 :laugh:
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 23, 2018, 04:53:49 PM
I already have my last vehicle, and can't afford any new vehicle now but after crunching the numbers for operating cost it does appear they are selling these EVs based on a "green tinted illusion" at present.  Tesla had the right idea with the S and X models- a luxury status tech-toy for the wealthy. The model 3 is a status toy as well because it is in no way economical to own or operate.

The electricity prices here are low (coal - not accounting for the full health care costs and excess deaths and degradation of land from mining and  mercury and heavy metals spread in the downwind areas) compared to some places, about 12 cents a KWH, so for the Chevy Bolt at 3.5 miles/KWH that adds another 3.4 cents per mile to the battery replacement cost of 8 cents/mile (wildly optimistic 200K mile service life) and it is still over present fuel costs at 10 cents a mile. 

The ongoing battery replacement cost and cost/mile to recharge will be the figures to watch in the future.  Weight and aerodynamics will largely determine the car's efficiency for the latter as practical maximum efficiencies in electric motors and controllers have already been achieved. 

A battery weight and cost breakthrough is sorely needed. 















Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 23, 2018, 06:13:52 PM
Happiness is a state of mind.

I guess we all are just a mass of stupids being lead around by one fake news story after another.  The move to electric everything is on the march.  I'm tagging along.

Cheers,
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 23, 2018, 06:53:02 PM
Nothing wrong with wanting an electric car-  as long as you know going in what the true economics of it are.  It will improve air quality in cities, relocating the pollution to the rural areas with the coal/oil/NG plant, with no net benefit (yet) for the planet. (I'm avoiding nuclear on purpose.) In countries and regions where the grid is mostly renewable power, electric cars will be a net gain for the planet.  Today in the US, where you do your own charging via PV, it's a net gain for the planet, though not yet for your pocketbook.

Carbon tax on fossil fuels, if done well, could shift the power mix in a direction which would benefit future generations but public trust in governments to do things well and fairly isn't at an all time high and next month's mortgage, insurance, car loan, credit card bill is the focus for most.  In the US whatever simplistic media message is repeated the most, wins.

 

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 23, 2018, 10:02:31 PM
Okay, you forced it out of me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVter3vZMjA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVter3vZMjA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ejSbXb44qo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ejSbXb44qo)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVUASGY9HIc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVUASGY9HIc)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQYqJb91MiQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQYqJb91MiQ)  Not my best side.  This might be re-titled as "Where's all that smoke coming from?"  The reversing switch later caught on fire.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 23, 2018, 10:32:10 PM
Very nice job on the electric conversion, Casey, and a great utility hauler for your nut farm. 
Are those (3) 12v batteries wet or AGM?  How are you charging?  How many watt motor and what kind?

Give us the full details, please!



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 23, 2018, 11:46:34 PM
It will improve air quality in cities, relocating the pollution to the rural areas

I know it's not your attitude Bruce but it is a cornerstone of the EV Proponents.
I find it an incredibly selfish and hypocritical one though.  It amounts to the same old, " Lets do what we want and Dump the Shit in someone elses backyard. "
There are also the excuse makers that will talk about the trees and sunlight and whatever better absorbing the pollution but if that were real then it wouldn't matter where the emissions were created because they would blow away and be absorbed or recycled somewhere eventually.
The EV proponents talk about health benefits while the same time in effect saying " Lets dump the rubbish and  poison somewhere else so we can be healthier and cleaner" .

Isn't that the same attitude that we protest now with Dumping E waste and other things we don't want in 3rd world countries and got us into a lot of the mess environmentally we are presently in?

I think this attitude will backfire 2 ways.
I was reading about EV's creating more fine particles through Tyre wear. They also still have brake pads that also create a lot of harmful Dust.  To think that EV's will cause all the pollution to go away where they are is naive. May lessen it but won't eliminate it.
Secondly, if the fossil power stations are causing all these emissions, for the foreseeable future all we will do is increase them.... Right where our food is Grown.  You won't be breathing the Crap, You'll be ingesting it. 
Big win there, Not!


Quote
In countries and regions where the grid is mostly renewable power, electric cars will be a net gain for the planet.

Only places with truly stable Renewable power these days are the ones with unlimited Hydro.
I'm sure these places are NOT the ones bombarding people with the "Save water" message But certainly they are the places where EV's may be able to utilise a truly renewable and clean energy source. IF only there were more places like this with the clean and abundant energy they have.
Maybe places like NZ could use their Thermal energy which has massive still untapped potential to make EV's a Viable option that does in fact live up to the ideals of EV's and the green movement.
That is a beautiful clean country that is relatively unspoiled, not over populated and if done right, would do well to go the EV route as much as it could and provide the energy with it's natural non fossil resources.  Perhaps Hawaii could use it's thermal to power it's vehicle fleet as well?

In Australia, our head greenwashed Scientist has admitted, If Australia eliminated ALL it's emissions, it would not make one difference to world air quality.
Still, we follow the line of increased costs, lowered standards and benefits and do it all in the name of a useless goal.
"Stralaya, not the smartest gubbermint in the world. "

Quote
Today in the US, where you do your own charging via PV, it's a net gain for the planet, though not yet for your pocketbook.
Takes a LOT of PV to charge your electric car. As you point out, the ability to contribute anything to your EV this way is going to be another BIG expense of your EV Dream.

Quote
Carbon tax on fossil fuels, if done well, could shift the power mix in a direction which would benefit future generations

We already pay more in the price of a liter of fuel in tax than the fuel itself costs. We have the situation with all the multiple dipping where we do in fact pay a tax on a tax.

Quote
but public trust in governments to do things well and fairly isn't at an all time high
You can say that again!
Mainly this is due to the fact Gubbermints NEVER tend to do things right or sensibly.  I have shown recent examples here in this thread.


Quote
  In the US whatever simplistic media message is repeated the most, wins.

Correction: In the WORLD whatever simplistic media message is repeated the most, wins and the sheeple will blindly follow.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 23, 2018, 11:56:32 PM
This might be re-titled as "Where's all that smoke coming from?"  The reversing switch later caught on fire.

Do you have a master Cut off switch where you can reach it from the drivers Position?
I would say that would be a worthwhile Addition.  You can get them for race cars for big amps and they are not that expensive. Come with a Nice big red handle and snap action for fast shutdown. 

Is that Veg oil you have settling in the cone Bottom containers in the shed?
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 24, 2018, 02:47:30 AM
Thanks Bruce.  I'm upgrading to a more modern electronic voltage system (Not yet installed).  You don't really understand how much power there is in three old fashioned lead acid 12 volt batteries until you try to put out one of their modest fires. 

The power system is out of a 60s or 70s Cushman golf car(t).  Among purists they are cars.  Here's the data:

Electric Motor
   GE            DC Motor         5BC48JB248
   V36            A53
   Wind Series      GEJ312
Charger:
   Lester Electrical of Nebraska      

So far glort, including the smoke and fire dances, the main solenoid has taken care of everything.  The flashing light is to tell the operator that the thing is still on so he doesn't walk off only to return to a dead machine in the morning.  I tried to find a space ship sound out of old movies but had to go with the red light.

My neighbor that rides his golf car all over his farm has a weight issue and I've gotten my BMI down to 23 but that's too much information.  So maybe it isn't as good as it looks like for health reasons.  We recruit volunteers to work on the farm and a knowledgeable person could easily get transferred from pulling weeds to EV Engineer pretty easy with a simple skills test (soft pitch) .  We're booked through September at this time.  As many of you have realized I've got a touch of dementia so visitors really help me keep my mind.  Like this morning when I couldn't remember bird of paradise three different times.  I've got it now for a day or two so they are doing their job and having a great time here in Hawaii as well (second soft pitch). :)

Yup, that's part of my veg oil program from years gone by.  I just don't use enough diesel stuff to keep it alive.  One of this Summers tasks will be to get it to someone that will utilize it along with all the other bio-diesel crap (once you stop using that really neat stuff it transmigrates to "Crap").  An important thing to keep in mind is that giving away a project or selling a project is just like finishing the project as you get all that room back to put other really neat stuff before it becomes crap.  But I forget, Lister Engine Forum is a safe house for Horders.

Cheers,

Play nice others.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 24, 2018, 06:40:33 AM
The flashing light is to tell the operator that the thing is still on so he doesn't walk off only to return to a dead machine in the morning.

That's a good idea but have you also thought of a pressure switch under the seat? Could go to the solenoid and trigger it off and on when someone sat on the thing.  Ride on mowers have all had them a while ( Cursed things in that application) and a lot of cars have them now as a seatbelt warning as well.
If you have other people using the thing, maybe you should put a seatbelt on it just to cover your arse being that you live in the Sue SA and all.
Had to laugh the otehr night watching  Tractor Demo Videos.  Show you how to fit and detach an implement and every time the guy put his backside in the seat he did up the seat belt, pulled a lever o threw a switch, undid the belt and got back off it again.  Tractor never moved an inch!

I was thinking to myself have far has this liability caper got out of hand when they have to make vids like that? 

Quote
One of this Summers tasks will be to get it to someone that will utilize it along with all the other bio-diesel crap (once you stop using that really neat stuff it transmigrates to "Crap").

 I have seen friends move their bio stuff on the same way.  Kinda sad really when you think what often went into getting it all set up in the first place.
I have seen some people ask stupid money for things though. Typically think they should get every cent back they spent even though they already have and more in the savings they made.

 
Quote
  But I forget, Lister Engine Forum is a safe house for Horders.

Yeah, not this little black Duck any more. I have the ute loaded ATM with junk ready to put in the Dumpsters.
Learned my lesson, not going back to that insanity again. Still lots to shift but at least I now recognise the problem.  :0)
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 24, 2018, 09:24:15 AM
Good for you glort.  Admitting that there is a problem is the most common first step in solving it.  Whether you move onward to say "No thank you" or fall back on the ole buying better containers to store the crap in cycle knowing there is a problem is central to cure.

My name is Casey and I have no control on the amount of crap I've got stored and will probably never use.  Tobacco, alcohol or crap.  It's all connected in really subtle ways that are incredibly powerful.  The challenge is to replace the negative behaviors with positive ones like working on diesel engines, getting stuff to grow or having PV panels from one end of the yard to another.  (Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.)

Aloha,
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 24, 2018, 01:27:16 PM
The challenge is to replace the negative behaviors with positive ones like working on diesel engines, getting stuff to grow or having PV panels from one end of the yard to another.  (Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.)


AhHa!

See, I cured that one. All panels on the roof now.
Got to admit I keep looking at the yard and thinking about a ground mount and how many KW I could put on it!

Never mind, Have to load up tomorrow with panels and all the rest of the installation crap and go up to Dads and do a setup for him.

He has enough roof space with all his shed to charge an EV if it were covered with panels, Just have to knock over about 250M wide by 200M deep of 100Ft gum trees to cure the shading problem.

Can't see him giving up his New twin Turbo
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 24, 2018, 03:00:07 PM
Hey Casey,
Smart move to re-purpose the golf cart motor and controls.  Well done.
Didn't you also have another 36v project... a chainsaw?  Or was that someone else?


Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on April 25, 2018, 05:25:01 PM
I discussed putting an inverter on the ATV but 36 Volt inverters are expensive and my incredibly creative switching model was real expensive as well.  Another battery would almost require a trailer because of space. 

The next step is to install the newer electronic power components.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: AdeV on April 25, 2018, 10:03:01 PM
Quote
  But I forget, Lister Engine Forum is a safe house for Horders.

Yeah, not this little black Duck any more. I have the ute loaded ATM with junk ready to put in the Dumpsters.
Learned my lesson, not going back to that insanity again. Still lots to shift but at least I now recognise the problem.  :0)

Don't worry, I'm still here, and I'm a confirmed hoarder :D

See attached photos of my "work"shop (or junk pile, as someone uncharitable might refer to it). This does not include the motley collection of vehicles which live out in the rain... (3 cars, 1 van, none roadworthy).
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: Thob on April 25, 2018, 10:23:14 PM
Dang, AdeV, I wish my shop was that neat!  At least light reaches the floor in some areas of your shop.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 25, 2018, 11:01:02 PM

Don't worry, I'm still here, and I'm a confirmed hoarder :D


PfffT!

You are just trying to show off and make the rest of us Envious.... and it's working!  :-[

Look at that place!  The size, The machinery, The Treasure!!
Ok I'm sure some of it could do with a little organising and perhaps a bit of thinning out but Damn!, That is one magnificent shed!

I got rid of a utefull of crap yesterday. A small achievement as there is still so much I brought with me that i'm not going to use so has to go now.  Add to that the mess I have created behind the shed.  Lots of branches and wod I have cut off all the trees around here and general crap I have put out of sight.... for the most part.  A lot the crap I bought here is Metal so easy to dispose of But a lot of the stuff I have cleaned up .  Sorting it is the hard part as will be dealing with whatever you get rid of, and one month later something out of the blue comes along that it would have been perfect for and you are cursing you got rid of it!

I think we need to bear in Mind though, they are SHEDS. As long as the house don't look like them, we are fine. Then again, my office is heading that way.  Lucky I bought a new trendy desk and return along with office furniture. That's a new one for me!

Just have to clean up and take away the old folding tables and put in the new stuff with draws and Cupboards.
Thinking of also putting in a Surround sound and  big TV for watching YT and movies in there.
Seem to have a lot of TV's here that do nothing.

Won't know myself!
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: AdeV on April 28, 2018, 08:19:08 PM

Don't worry, I'm still here, and I'm a confirmed hoarder :D


PfffT!

You are just trying to show off and make the rest of us Envious.... and it's working!  :-[

Look at that place!  The size, The machinery, The Treasure!!
Ok I'm sure some of it could do with a little organising and perhaps a bit of thinning out but Damn!, That is one magnificent shed!


The shed's not bad (It has a god-fearing roof: very holy), but yes it's an awesome size: 3800sq/ft of floor space, approx. I occupy about 2800sq/ft of that, including a 400sq/ft office that I built myself. Lurking under the mezzanine floor is a pretty fully equipped workshop. Not everything works, e.g. the CNC lathe needs a serious coat of looking at, and some of it's not accessible right now (the shaper's tucked away, if I tried to use it it'd be like swinging a bull in a very small china shop), but eventually it'll get straightened out. And yes, thinned down somewhat...
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 29, 2018, 12:30:33 AM
Happiness is a state of mind.

I guess we all are just a mass of stupids being lead around by one fake news story after another.  The move to electric everything is on the march.  I'm tagging along.

Cheers,

Won't be leading due to limited energy capacity and long charge times .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on April 29, 2018, 04:06:17 AM
I wonder how much of how we feel about the potential for an electric "future" is to do with infrastructure - certainly much of the conversation so far has been around that

Down here at the bottom of the world 85% of our electricity is from the two renewable source of hydro and wind; and, lots of the time our wind turbines are turned off because there is adequate water in the hydro dams and that is a cheaper generation system

We have recently elected a more left/green-leaning government and they are talking about taking two important steps to grow an electric fleet:  having government & local bodies buy electric cars (which will put them into the national pool when they are rolled over) and adding a levy to the importation of new cars to subsidise/promote the importation of EVs (mostly used Leafs ex-Japan ATM I guess)

These are small steps, but, when added to the increasing uptake of grid-tied solar (not a particularly rewarding deal $$-wise, but a beginning), I think they represent the beginnings of a change of viewpoint around energy

Our is a small country, with a great many commuters for whom an EV is potentially a very good option, and - although it has been a failure the first time around - we have considerable experience with electrification of rail networks

I suspect that the "feeling" of the coming generation is that we have lots of green electricity, can easily produce more if we need it, and that the current model of individual ownership of several large fossil-fuel-burning vehicles is a relic of my generation, not theirs

Just to be clear - I personally own several 2-litre size vehicles, drive a Hilux ute something like 50,000 Ks a year, have owned dozens of "play" motorcycles and have just sold my personal "toy" 6-tonne Hino truck.  I'm not talking about my generation - I'm looking forward towards my grandchildren's future

Just my $0.02
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 29, 2018, 07:55:12 AM

Fuel in NZ is very exy compared to here.  Is there a lot of tax on it?  More of the price of a litre of fuel here is tax than it is for the product.
People bitch about oil co's and the arabs but ones really doing the rorting are the gubbermint that make more money than anyone else and do nothing but collect the taxes ( on taxes as it is here) .

If Fuel is the huge cash cow for the gubbermint there as it is here, They will be out to make sure they maintain their revenue stream.
They will phase something in to do that or keep the EV's as lip service only.

A realistic observation on the potenial of EV's would be generation capacity. There is a big difference between having the base product ( water in this case) and being able to put it to work ( Hydro plants) . If the infrastructure is there to turn up the wick and make more power to feed the EV's, you are on a winner. If there would need to be more/ larger dams and plants..... That's a whole different story as is the distribution capacity of the grid even if there is the facilities in place which will just allow opening another valve and making more power. 

Maybe if demand for power for EV's exceeds the current Hydro capacity, The gubbermint could make more use of the thermal you have there.
Seems an under utilised power source if ever there were one.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on April 29, 2018, 10:13:42 AM
Hey Guys and Girls, Glort is absolutely right about geo thermal energy being the future for electricity generation. The problem is the drilling depth that is required to harvest it. There are a great many countries around the world that have geo thermal resources close to the surface, the problem is that those countries also have volcanoes and earthquakes. Therefore the investment is too dangerous as any generating plant could be destroyed or disable the day after it opens.

My personal opinion is that public transport is the way forward for city dwellers, be that electric or fossil fuel. I am not advocating for the sort of public transport systems we currently have where you stand on a platform in the rain waiting for a train or bus that never arrives. I think something more along the Uber model would be ideal with fast shuttles regularly available at every corner.

When is the government going to start to encourage people to stop commuting and work from home? If your job entails sitting in front of a computer why do you have to travel across town to do it? The recent advances in robotics suggest that factory work is also going to be a thing of the past so we can get those commuters off the road.

For those of us that live in rural areas electric vehicles are a non starter; cost, reliability and the distance from town make them non viable. However us hillbillies don`t have to heat our homes with fossil fuels, we just burn the timber that naturally falls on our properties.

I suspect that governments are struggling with an insoluble problem; finite resources and a growing population. What they are going to do about it is anybody's guess.

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 29, 2018, 12:56:57 PM

I suspect that governments are struggling with an insoluble problem;

I think that about sums it up.

Most of these " technology's of the future" are nothing more than a distraction or appeasement for the sheeple.
NONE of them are actual solution's, they all have inherent problems that render them impractical or worse than the current methods of doing things.

Electric is NOT viable for much of the world and won't be for decades to come if ever.
This BS of making all cars electric in 10 or 20 years is ridicilous on so many levels already explained and pointed out here.
Hydrogen is a Joke that anyone that's got a brain can see.  Biofuels, don't get me started on that Frivolity and so it goes.

All this, " In years to come" is just more smoke and mirrors. What going to be around in 20 years does not overcome the problems we face today.
Most of these future dreams are completely reshaping life as we know it. Never seen them in my lifetime.  People still do basically the same things as they did 50 years ago.

You hit the nail on the head also with the mention of Population. That is the REAL key to a hell of a lot of problems but because all the economic models are based on growth, they will never really do anything about it. The world population is exploding and so will the problems we face with it. Once again, that's where the bucks really lie so they will save whatever appeases the sheeple and carry on doing as they have done to make sure the money keeps flowing in.

You want to really save the planet for your Children?  Then just have one for a start and make sure they have one for a few generations to put the brakes on overpopulating the world.
Pollution will level out, some resources may start to recover and the oil and other things will last longer till real and Viable solution's can be found that will work long term. 

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 29, 2018, 03:44:07 PM

Fuel in NZ is very exy compared to here.  Is there a lot of tax on it?  More of the price of a litre of fuel here is tax than it is for the product.
People bitch about oil co's and the arabs but ones really doing the rorting are the gubbermint that make more money than anyone else and do nothing but collect the taxes ( on taxes as it is here) .

If Fuel is the huge cash cow for the gubbermint there as it is here, They will be out to make sure they maintain their revenue stream.
They will phase something in to do that or keep the EV's as lip service only.

A realistic observation on the potenial of EV's would be generation capacity. There is a big difference between having the base product ( water in this case) and being able to put it to work ( Hydro plants) . If the infrastructure is there to turn up the wick and make more power to feed the EV's, you are on a winner. If there would need to be more/ larger dams and plants..... That's a whole different story as is the distribution capacity of the grid even if there is the facilities in place which will just allow opening another valve and making more power. 

Maybe if demand for power for EV's exceeds the current Hydro capacity, The gubbermint could make more use of the thermal you have there.
Seems an under utilised power source if ever there were one.

What is this very expensive shift to Electric and it's drawbacks supposed to achieve ?
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles. , fuel and road tax
Post by: buickanddeere on April 29, 2018, 03:46:31 PM
  Anyone ever wonder what will happen with all these electric vehicles and the government loosing tax revenue on fuel. The EV drivers will have to pay more taxes and fees to recover the loss of ICE revenue.
  The EV will cost more per mile than the ICE .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mike90045 on April 29, 2018, 03:55:04 PM
Geothermal power is not cheap to maintain. the water picks up lots of minerals and as the steam cools, the minerals settle out on the machinery, and have to be acid washed off.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on April 29, 2018, 09:03:46 PM



What is this very expensive shift to Electric and it's drawbacks supposed to achieve ?

I guess it depends on how you look at it.

Firstly, for government it is revenue-neutral and tax-neutral

Secondly, for users, there is a saving to be made if you adopt an EV at some point in the future.  There is no cost at all if you continue to drive your current vehicle.  There may be extra cost if you buy a new vehicle

For those New Zealanders who voted for the Labour/Green government I would guess that it reduces New Zealand's contribution to the greenhouse gas burden of the planet - but does so in a way that does not make us, as a country, less competitive than we were previously with those of our trading partners who do not adopt such measures - as we might become if we did other unilateral things like adding carbon taxes etc

That's just a layman's understanding, though

(and, of course you are right Mr B&D lol)

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on April 29, 2018, 09:56:43 PM



What is this very expensive shift to Electric and it's drawbacks supposed to achieve ?

I guess it depends on how you look at it.

Firstly, for government it is revenue-neutral and tax-neutral

Secondly, for users, there is a saving to be made if you adopt an EV at some point in the future.  There is no cost at all if you continue to drive your current vehicle.  There may be extra cost if you buy a new vehicle

For those New Zealanders who voted for the Labour/Green government I would guess that it reduces New Zealand's contribution to the greenhouse gas burden of the planet - but does so in a way that does not make us, as a country, less competitive than we were previously with those of our trading partners who do not adopt such measures - as we might become if we did other unilateral things like adding carbon taxes etc

That's just a layman's understanding, though

(and, of course you are right Mr B&D lol)

Cheers, Mike

And, yes, we have geothermal.  Cheaper than wind but more expensive than hydro - but probably coming down in price over time as the tech matures
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles. , fuel and road tax
Post by: glort on April 29, 2018, 10:00:31 PM
  The EV will cost more per mile than the ICE .

It already does.
Bruce and I have shown that in this thread.

The worry I find will be the cost of power going up for everyone when the demand goes through the roof.  Power is already expensive but you are going to be paying all the taxes and for the EV consumption / demand whether you use the power to cook Dinner when you don't have a car or wether it is to charge the EV.

A really predict EV's will be a flash in the pan. Right now they are something new and exciting for the industry to increase sales with.  I think thee will be a bit of a rush, people will get them and discover they are not all they are cracked up to be ( and in fact cost more to run) and then they will drop them going back to IC's.

Industry will be happy with that, that get to see 2 new cars.
Gubbermint probably won't be too unhappy either, they get the tax froom 2 car sales and they will probably put higher taxes on IC cars with the blessing of the greened sheeple so when they go back to IC's the taxes and fees are more.

Win win for big biz and gubbermints once again.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 29, 2018, 10:26:36 PM

I was again reminded of the limitations of EV's for holiday/ country trips.
Made a quick trip up to my Dads last week to take him to the eye specialist in the next Town. Not a good Idea to let him drive home in the dark after having his eyes Dilated.  Being near the end of school holidays, Traffic was busy.

The place in the Middle of the Highway that has Fuel and a road house was again packed.  They must have 40-50 Pumps there and as I went slowly past due to the traffic slowing to let in all the merging traffic coming out of there, I saw they were full with a line up behind.  That's a lot of cars and a lot of fuel going through there.  It's a big car park too and I thought that with EVS. that carpark may look more like an old drive in where instead of the pmps, every spot had a charging station.

Again I thought of the power consumption.  Even if every car just had a 10 KW outlet, That is a massive amount of power.  There is nothing else around there either so the lines coming to that one location would have to be massive. I bet they are considerable now but to uprate them at least 20x would be an expensive doing.
It was the same at the macca's up the road at the end of the highway. Couldn't get in the joint and they were using the parking of the Bulky goods place next door.  Servo over the road was lined up out the drive as well.

So many vehicles had trailers with tents, the Obligatory bicycles ( WTF is it with everyone taking bikes on holidays these days??)  Boats and caravans.
They obviusly knock the range of a vehicle to all hell when towing so I thought with an EV how many more stops would be required and translated that into hours added to the journey.
Not hard to see that a one day drive could quickly turn into two.  Also not hard to see how much more tired people would be after stopping to recharge for how ever long and the time that would add to a longer Journey.

I wondered about the knock on effects of this and that a proportion of drivers would ditch the EV and Fly... in a fossil fueled plane.

When I was up north a few weeks ago, Flying took me door to door as I would be if I drove, 8 hours to do a 12 hour drive.  Everyone goes on about flying being that much quicker but your air time is a lot different to your door to door time. Leave home to get to the airport an hour early, bugger around in long lines, be careful waht you take so your bag isn't overweight, get put in a space they would deem animal cruelty if you weren't a human, get hearded off at the other end like cattle, try to find your bag, more expensive transport getting out the joint  to finally get where you are going..... every bit as tired and for me far more frustrated than if I drove.

Going thousands of KM is different but for those 1000Km hops, I prefer to drive thanks.  Speed isn't everything.

The simple thing of a family holiday or even a Visit to a rellies has many complications to overcome for EV's.
What happens when the family arrives at Grandma's for Christmas and everyone wants to plug in to charge the EV which is going to take 4-8 hours each?
Not much to get 6 cars on a family Visit. Not enough juice for all of them and if there is, Grandma better hope the Christmas leftovers last till March because that's when she will be able to afford to eat again once the power bill comes in.

There is so much rainbows and sunshine made about EV's now and the gut busting hurry for everyone to own one but there are still a LOT of very basic fundamental problems to overcome with them in real life use. 

I can see a petrol/ Diesel Generator on the Drawbar of those trailers with the bikes and all the camping crap on them thumping away with a lead going back to the vehicle to Increase the range and provide a means of self charging  when on trips.




Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on April 30, 2018, 09:26:46 AM
Very interesting point Glort makes about Granny getting the bill to fuel all the relatives cars at xmas. I wonder how many employees will get fired for plugging their EV into the power supply at work without permission. I predict a whole new criminal activity with unscrupulous people craftily charging their vehicles from any supply they can find, at the expense of someone else. It is also likely that more people will illegally bypass the meter in their home to avoid the costs. (Not difficult, most cannabis factories do exactly that). I wonder who will have to pay to cover all this energy theft, insurance companies don`t cover it, so I guess it will just be added to the honest consumers energy bill plus the government taxes for using too much energy!

Lock up your power points, the criminals are coming to get you!

Bob

 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on April 30, 2018, 09:58:49 AM
Further to my previous prediction here is another. The government and energy companies will have to force the introduce of  on board metering on all EVs to prevent energy theft. In the name of consumer protection this will come with a built in GPS tracking device which will prove how much energy you have used and invade your privacy. Later that data will become available to the police to track your movements. This will be followed up by a massive data breach giving criminals access to your energy and personal information.

God help us, big brother is beginning to look like a saint.

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on April 30, 2018, 01:09:39 PM
Lock up your power points, the criminals are coming to get you!


If you look around, you'd be amazed at how many outlets are there for the taking.
When I was collecting Veg oil in the early days I had a 240V Pump.  Loads of places had outlets on the back wall, in shes where they kept the garbage and other places.  Also when I was shooting sports, I'd go to parks and there were always outlets somewhere on the exterior of the building and i have seen loads of them on light towers at fields as well.  Shopping centre cars parks have them every so often if you look as well.  Parked at pacific fair on the goldy a few weeks ago next to the fire stair and saw an outlet.  Mrs phone was running low and I had a charger with me so I went off and got a coffee and we sat sipping on that looking at the best view from a carpark in the country while her phone got a partial zap. Could have just as easy plugged in the car.

If you know where to look,  you can find outlets in the gardens at maccas and other small local shopping centre car parks.
Maybe an electric isn't a bad Idea after all!  :0) I could certainly find PLENTY of outlets to charge from.

I was reading today how the Power Authourity/ association head muppet is  " deeply Concerned" over all the solar electric people are putting on their roofs.

In typical affront to a persons intelligence, they were going on about how PV uptake may destabilise the grid and make it unfair for people that stay on it while others jump shit. The reasoning was that the grid has to be upkept ( all those 50 YO poles and wires that do nothing to gold plate!) and the fewer people on the grid the more each has to pay and that's not fair.
The insinuation was that it should be like water where you have to pay if it's available whether you use it or not.

The way it was worded was that everyone should have to help keep the grid stable and other carefully worded phrases that substituted the obvious word   " PAY".  Yes we get it. Your vested interests are starting to realise they are loosing revenue and the writing on the wall and are trying to get in early to make it the law everyone has to be connected or pay as if they were anyhow.

I think they will probably get that in because the way they are going, it will still be cheaper to be self succicent and pay the levy than to buy power.
I will second your prediction thought that if that happens, power theft will go through the roof and it will cost them more in the end than what it's worth.

You are also right about how easy it can be to steal power.
A friend that was not immune to the odd slight of hand did it in all the places he used to rent.  Just put a jumper wire across the meter terminals.  Some of the power bypasses the meter and other goes through. Result is your meter still goes forward, just you get a lot of " Bonus"  Power.
I was reading up on the new smart meters the other day looking at their emissions and saw some tech data on all the anti theft and tampering they are building into them now.  Apparently they can detect bypassed power. not sure how but that's what they say. Can also detect magnets, intrusions and other things.

If they ever put one of those goddamn meters on my house, I'll put magnets, back feed it and make the things look like they are haywire from the day they put them in. I figure they will get sick of testing and changing them and then I can do what I like and they will put it down to location or something else and not worry.

Another guy I knew used to microwave electronic devices just before the warranty ran out so he could get a new one. 2 sec in a microwave blows the crap out of everything and makes repair uneconomical . Did it with phones, camera's, tablets and other things.

I reckon a magnetron liberated from the oven,  put near the smart meter and activated for a few secs from a far distance would have a similar  disruptive effect. 
Wonder if they make these meters with anti energy burst protection?
My guess is No.   :laugh:

That reminds me, I have to go test that electromagnet I got from the AC compressor on the water meter. Read they can be stopped with a strong magnetic force.  Those things are incredibly powerful. Also read the old meters are due to be replaced with smart water meters soon too. Dad got one a while back and surprise surprise, his water usage has supposedly gone through the roof.

Going to have to keep an eye out for any old microwaves on clean up from now on!  :laugh:
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on April 30, 2018, 04:43:47 PM
I've read an engineer's report on the internals of the AMI brand smart meters.  Primitive in that there was no filtering on the supply side, thus the meter would violate an FCC conducted emissions test except of course the power co is exempt. No protection from EMP, spikes or EMI on the power line either.  It was cheaply made like consumer "disposable" electronics.   Anti-tampering would be through the detection of interruption of power if the meter was pulled; compared to neighboring meters with no interruption of power and you'll get a visit.   

Magnets were effective for the old style meters but other than perhaps saturating the current transformer core (unlikely to be effective), I don't see that being effective here.  Since big brother is watching your meter daily, a reduction in power use might trigger a site inspection. All they have to do is inspect the security seal/wires on the meter side of the box. 

I'm sure they would have no problem spending 1000x more on "security" than is saved by the effort; it all just gets passed on and the "regulators"; here in AZ they are openly bought by paying for their campaigns. 

This business of destabilizing the grid is power co. propaganda.  They are just protecting their vested interests instead of working on solutions.  Nationalizing the grid is one way to solve that problem, but it's possible to attempt to manage private grid operators; though Australia's experience with that, like California's early deregulation experience, has been painful for public pocketbook.  What a shocking surprise, each corporate interest acts to increase it's own profitability.

Denmark has had peaks of well over 50% wind power already...and their power reliability and stability is one of the best in the world.  It seems that tracking weather forecasts and actual vs predicted output does work, at least for a nationalized grid management.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/does-denmark-hold-the-key-to-integrating-large-amounts-of-intermittent-rene#gs.kYHAtAs

"Smart" meters were and are a farce. No savings have been demonstrated, anywhere, and the national security issues are profound since they have been proven to be readily hackable. These concerns were raised publicly by retired seniors of the CIA and NSA but were ignored.




Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on May 01, 2018, 02:24:46 AM
Actually the local distribution system can be destabilized by the surges and harmonics from the induction motors used as generators in large wind turbines . The trip parameters have to be widened or the turbines will trip protective relays .
  An cloudy day with intermittent sun can also trip line protective devices .
  Generally speaking , the max generating capacity in a distribution line can not exceed the amount of power used during the lowest demand intervals .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 01, 2018, 03:47:15 AM

Given the article on Denmark was from greentech media, I'll take it with a grain of salt.

It does seem however that they have embraced what is fought against in most places. Local generation and distribution.
They seem to be encouraging all renewable generation and spending a buck to control it properly rather than giving it lip service and in practicality discouraging  it because it loses the power co's and Gubbermint Revenue.

This is the difference between what we have here as do many other parts of the world. The gubbermints talk a load of utter shit about saving the planet and pump money into useless but flashy endeavors to get them in the news but real and effective efforts are made overly difficult or outright banned.

The whole green thing ticks me off for this reason. Not because I am against clean and emission free power, but because the whole "green" cause is insulted as is my intelligence by gubbermints and big biz.  It's a whole different things when the commitment is real and genuine.

Before I came in for a coffee I checked my inverters and am pumping about 6Kw back into the grid. For most people here that is illegal because you are limited to 5.  Wouldn't want to overload the grid now would we?   ::)

Less than 1.5 Km from me there is a massive Old folks complex. Separate dwellings as well as large buildings with individual rooms. Not a single panel in sight.  Next to them is a sewage works.  I will bet the whole district couldn't produce enough power with panels to feed those 2 facilities alone.
Forget the town centre not 3 KM away and the large industrial areaS about 7 KM away in multiple directions. There is also a Hospital about 4 KM away.
Bet they don't use much power!

Yet we can' t have too much PV going back or the grid will get overloaded.
What a crock!

Unless every house was pumping back what it is wired for, 63A, the grid cannot be overloaded. Pretty simple, if it will go one way it will go the other.

If the electric car thing has a hope in hell of becoming real, the infrastructure needs to be in place first. The very fundamental concern should be do we have enough power and that in most places is clearly a NO.

The whole solar initiative here was because the grid was in dire peril of collapse because it could not keep up and the infrastructure was so poorly maintained. The power cos pushed the Gubbermint to bring in solar to take the weight off them. It was close but thinks to the rapid uptake of solar the grid managed to get from Critical  to just serious Condition.  Now it's heading back to teetering on the brink again but they don't want the permanent revenue loss that the solar Initiative brought about.

I read an article yesterday about plans for load shedding here because the generation isn't keeping up at all. At the same time you have the head twit of the power industry association spreading garbage about all the PV growth may stabilise the grid because the more people that go off it the more the ones still on it will have to pay.

That might hold some cred if the power co's didn't keep posting record profits quarter after quarter and were in fact doing it tough. this mouthpiece goes on about concern for low income earners at the same time he's fleecing them for all he can get out of them with the record profits they keep posting.

Unless all the power to feed the electric cars is renewable, they are just going to be shifting from one fossil fuel to another with a net result of Zero.
But not to worry, the sheeple will feel good for a while till they wake up and the rich will get richer from it and then make more money again correcting the problem they knowingly made in the first place.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on May 01, 2018, 04:33:51 AM


Check out the Chinese

you guys have lots of sunny desert in Oz?

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2073747/powerful-images-worlds-largest-solar-energy-farms-are-china
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 01, 2018, 08:33:49 AM
All the latest windmill designs are now DC generators with an industrial inverter on the output, so harmonic distortions and destabilizaton are not the same issues as before.  California has also added new specifications for GTIs which will improve stability.  Obviously, that is the place to be doing it...just as Glort's GTI's won't over voltage the line, newer designs can correct power factor and line distortions as well.

I'm disgusted with green washing as well...alas, propaganda works.

I saw a youtube video on Thorium reactors that makes me angry about how all the safety problems of solid fuel reactors were well known and that a much, much safer and dramatically less waste producing system was designed, built, documented and then abandoned. Alvin Weinburg was then fired as head of Oak Ridge by prick Nixon in 1973 because he kept talking publicly about the successful and much safer thorium molten salt reactor breakthrough he had proven.  I was even more impressed with the safety details of this reactor; if anything goes wrong (core gets too hot) or power is cut off from the plant, a  plug of salt melts and  molten salt fuel is held in a vessel below the core.  Without the graphite core moderator, it can't sustain fusion so just cools itself off in that tank.  No high pressure steam, no hydrogen, no explosion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6mhw-CNxaE

Other information is that thorium is a waste product of mining for rare earths, and so we already have ample supplies. 

It makes me pretty pissed off at the US nuclear power industry and regulatory agencies of the 60s and early 70's.  Most of the current nuclear engineers don't even know that a molten salt thorium reactor was already built and operating back then, and just accept pressurized water- solid fuel systems as all there is or could be.  I was given the same indoctrination as a young engineer. 

















Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 01, 2018, 12:00:28 PM


Check out the Chinese

you guys have lots of sunny desert in Oz?

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2073747/powerful-images-worlds-largest-solar-energy-farms-are-china

Makes me laugh.

The greenwashed west can' t wait to make a big song and dance every time they build a bigger solar farm.
The Chinese build the biggest by far and don't say a word about it.

I'll say one thing for the Chinese, they don't have the BS and corruption in politics like the west does. They truly are there for the people. Not talking about human rights and other things, just that they do things to benifit the people, not what big biz that control elections and the officials want.
Bruces point about using one type of reactor when a superiour technology was available is classic case in point.

Like many things, People form a media driven Opinion of things and often just think something is all bad when thee is a lot more to the story.
China isn't the pack of bastards often Made out. they have their shortcomings like every other nation in the world but they tens to be highlighted and their merits never mentioned.

They must be doing something right, they literally own the US and are flat out buying up anything worth while in Oz and other places.  So much residential property is Chines owned heres it's a serious concern that should never been allowed to happen.
Spose if everything goes tits up at least they won't want to bomb us!


The solar farm in the dessert idea really is a misguided Crock. It's been done in many places, the US especially and is a failure even if not admitted.
There are a load of problems with solar farms in the dessert.

Desserts are dusty and that gets on the panels and reduces output. Just 1 gram of dust per sqM of panels can knock off the generation by up to 40%! Might be ok to clean the panels on your roof but when you have a million of the things.... It's a different story. And of course the best way to clean panels of dust is with water. Which desserts for some inexplicable reason seem to be a bit short of.

Desserts are hot and dry. Heat knocks off panel efficiency as well. Given that panels fall off in efficency below average dessert temps even beofe they are heated by the sun....
Being dry, shading the dessert floor makes it cooler and retains moisture better... which means plants like to grow which can interfere and even shade the panels.

Building vast areas of shade on the dessert floor also wreaks havoc with the animals and habitat thereof.

Sand moves in desserts. There are wind storms which move said sand, a lot of sand and the dunes change all the time.  You might build a farm today and not be able to see it next week. Location is very important.

In many parts like Oz, desserts are an effing long way from Citys where you need the power.  You have to build a strong transmission system and then when the power does get there, it's a whole lot less than you started with.  You may be OK in some places, Adelaide might be ok, but if you are thinking of Building tens of sq KM to power the significan't part of the population, forget it.

If we look at history, very recent history, we see that these great ideas of solar farms in the dessert have so far mainly been failures. Very costly failures.
At very best their outputs have been much lower than forecast or budgeted on, making the things largely white and expensive elephants.


In my mind, without doubt, the best, least damaging and most practical place to put panels is on roofs of houses where the power will be used at the premises or other premises such as factory's, shopping centers, hospitals, offices, University's etc which are probably less than ten KM away not thousands.


And just to pre empt the next usual ill thought out suggestion, please no one ask about putting panels on Roads!!  ::)
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 01, 2018, 04:04:10 PM

Was just reading  on another forum I gave away years ago because I couldn't stand what could only be describe as the pussy, limp wristed mentality there.
Seems some have grown a pair but the narrow one minded views and incredible.

They were discussing electric vehicles.
It really was an eye opener. it's clear that some people are so hell bent on the ideal, they don't even look at the bigger picture and when any problems are pointed out, they are just ignored.

I don't understand why people ( in general) who say they want something will only discuss a part of their cause.
It's talking about the problems, getting people thinking about them and coming up with soloutions that will get the job done. Making out everything is sunshine and rainbows, getting people involved who then have a bad experience and rubbish the whole thing is what will bring any idea or concept undone.

These people are just oblivious to where the power will come from.  they were talking about something I had not thought of, Electric busses. Apparently starting to catch on in some parts of Asia.  Someone pointed out range and the enormous ( 500Kwh) batteries these things have. the discussion went on about the charging time and it was concluded that buses spend many hours in the sheds so would be able to recharge and at worst case scenario, they could be rotated between charge and service time.

Someone pointed out the power consumption and that power lines may have to be upgraded to the bus depots. What an understatement that would be!
Then someone mentioned the amount of power and how much would be renewable in land limited places like hong Kong, Singapore etc.
Some discussion ensued where a bright spark then concluded that all would have to be done is divert some of the neighboring homes excess solar to the bus depot and all would be 100% renewable.  This was well received by the gathered sheeple and taken to be the conclusive resolution to the problem.

Putting subject matter aside, this is a real eyepopener in the ignorance of people and how they will accept the most stupid things as workable soloutions because they talk and listen a lot but do zero to actually educate themselves on what is real and what is a pipe dream. one misinformed person just follows another and goes with whatever poppycock they come up with as long as it is what they want to hear.

It did have me thinking but.... how much power WOULD a bus depot need to charge all their fleet when it was in operation every day and doing many hours which would mean the batteries would be substantially depleted. With 500Kwh to replenish, You would need some decent amps to get the job done in a timely manner even if that were 8 hours.  I make that about 60KW would need to be fed in and that's straight numbers not allowing for the fact batteries need more put in than their capacity.

If you have 20 Busses in the shed all recharging, that's 1.2Mw of power.  Gubbermit bus depots here would have at least 100 busses from what I have seen at several. If there are 50 Busses on charge at a given time......  Well lets just say the Gubbermint need not worry about the grid being overloaded with all the PV from homes being backfed!

i really can't get my head around the economies of scale for the power that is going to be required in an electric transport fleet.  I can't get my head round how all that power is going to be generated either. Wind and solar is all well and good but it does take up space and a lot of it and there are the fundamental problems of the wind not always blowing, the sun not always shining and the astronomical amount of GW that would need to be stored for when that happens.

Even the distribution system that will be required for all that power will be huge. There will be HV transmission lines in every street.
If people don't want to live under or over power lines now, just wait for the IC fleet to be predominantly replaced by the EV. Power lines will dominate every skyline and the EMF radiating out will be like standing in a microwave.

BUT..... while I can't get my head around these things, seems so many others don't even think of them and that's where a real problem lies.



 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 01, 2018, 05:34:06 PM
Democracy at it's best is reactive in nature, which makes long term planning a serious problem. Then when you add in mega-corporate manipulation of democracy it gets severely warped.  It may be the best system of government we can come up with, but it may also lead to extinction.  As world population is at 7.6 billion and increasing by 1.13% per year US population is still being fed messages of how we must have growth of our economy.

I note that the Australian government is similar though less blatant; while the public is fed green propaganda, the government is making a bundle licensing massive coal and gas exports to a consortium of the biggest oil/coal companies in the world. Meanwhile the Aussie public is paying grossly inflated prices for their dominantly coal fed power grid and for natural gas for domestic use.  This is an example of the sort of simple manipulation of democracy that is happening everywhere. 

While the US public is fed such baloney as LED light bulbs, electric cars and wireless everything, US fossil fuel production is up, up up. 

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=34572

Australia has better quality greenwashing but if you look at the first page of the report showing a chart of exports, you will see their gas and coal exports continue to increase...

https://industry.gov.au/Office-of-the-Chief-Economist/Publications/Documents/energy-in-aust/energy-in-australia-fact-card.pdf

It seems that there is a race to profit from mineral resources.

Germany doesn't have much in the way of domestic oil and gas, but I did find some charts that show that their imports of same are increasing.  Their coal production and use is increasing.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/11/13/germany-is-a-coal-burning-gas-guzzling-climate-change-hypocrite/

It seems the hairless apes are out of control.







Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on May 01, 2018, 07:35:06 PM
    Denmark for all their green posturing and socialist utopia. Most people are clueless about or willingly blind to Denmark selling gas and oil to fund EV subsidies , “free” healthcare, “free” education and a high minimum wage .
    They are rather tight lipped about the amount of income tax Danes pay or the tariffs paid on an ICE vehicle .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 01, 2018, 09:10:51 PM
Denmark is certainly engaging in "world class" major oil and gas exporting hypocrisy. They are a capitalistic democracy, after all.  No doubt the people get fed the very best quality greenwashed propaganda. That may be the best that democracies can do.

My older brother is in his last few years of serious heart disease, still working himself to death quite literally after 20 years of 80 hr weeks putting his 3 kids through college. (One with 1.5 years left to go and disabled.)  I don't view universal health care or universal education as foolish expenditures, or as things that don't improve the quality of life for most working men with families.  I recently had to forgo homeowner's insurance to pay for a medication 40 years out of patent and with cheap generics everywhere else in the world but not here in the US where Pfizer has a monopoly, so I'm not so impressed with America's "beacon of light" and "freedom", or "health care". My drug insurance co. doesn't cover it as it's not on their formulary and a letter from my doctor got me the usual denial.

Condemnation of another democracy for choosing to support their people with their wealth from oil, gas and coal seems like a strange position to me.  By all independent measures the Danish populace is much happier and satisfied with life than Americans. 

I can hardly imagine a place with good paid public schools through college and no worries about anything but getting well if you get sick or injured.  Parents only need to worry about parenting. I know a Dane who's Dad just died from Parkinson's in Denmark; social services came and reviewed his wishes and situation and he got in home care and help for his elderly wife, appropriate to their needs, all the way to the end where he had in home care round the clock. He NEVER had to worry about bankruptcy, losing his home, or not being able to afford the medications and extensive help he needed. 














Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: AdeV on May 02, 2018, 12:18:24 AM
I'll say one thing for the Chinese, they don't have the BS and corruption in politics like the west does.

At the "big showcase projects" level, you're probably right; the Chinese have a very JFDI attitude (Just Fucking Do It). Lower down the tree, though, and corruption is endemic. Every Party or government official you meet needs his palm greasing before things will happen... money which is supposed to be used on repairs or local infrastructure gets spent alright, but the roads remain in a godawful condition, water pisses out on the streets where they can't be bothered fixing the pipes, and god help you if you're on the end of the electricity line that got blown down in the storm... unless you're willing to let some official trouser yet more cash, so he can divert some of what was going into his personal account, into the actual job of making a repair.

Chinese society is not one that we need to copy... Chinese industriousness, on the other hand, well, the West could use some of that like a shot in the arm... but preferably without the palm greasing.

They truly are there for the people.

Hmm, again, even less that one. The big projects are there to say "Look how good China's Communist Government is" (much like any big National Showcase project in any country). China is criss-crossing the country with high-speed rail links, which sounds great, unless you live in the way... in which case you Will Be Moved On (No Arguments Will Be Tolerated).  That said, Xi Jinping is doing some good things for some of the very poorest in China (now that's really upsetting the Do Gooders - who've been bitching about China's one-party state for years, but when that party suddenly starts helping the very poorest, it kind of pulls the rug out from their do-gooding, and there's nothing that makes a do-gooder crosser than that!), so it's not all bad.

Those roads, though... I've genuinely driven (well, been driven, in a tax) down a major city street which had holes big enough - and I'm not exaggerating - to swallow an entire small car. It was like being on a roller coaster at times.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 02, 2018, 12:55:09 AM
Marvelous post on China, AdeV.  I also admire some of what they do (population control) and not others (ignoring pollution until people are dying by droves ).  I expect the ratting out of non-conformist neighbors to the party is much like in the old Soviet controlled countries.

Alas, every country is run by nothing but humans. 





Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on May 02, 2018, 05:01:32 AM
Democracy at it's best is reactive in nature, which makes long term planning a serious problem. Then when you add in mega-corporate manipulation of democracy it gets severely warped.  It may be the best system of government we can come up with, but it may also lead to extinction.  As world population is at 7.6 billion and increasing by 1.13% per year US population is still being fed messages of how we must have growth of our economy.



Bruce, I often admire your insights . . .

I would add to that that, in China the rulers don't have to answer to anyone but themselves.  Thus they can get things done in a way that we, shackled by the 3,4,or 5-year electoral cycle and by politicians who are short-sighted at best and completely captured by interest groups/industry at worst, are crippled by the need to get re-elected . . .

Of course the Chinese - since they don't have to answer to an electorate - can do whatever they like in terms of human rights abuses, political meddling etc etc

I often think some sort of benign dictatorship - if we could find such a thing - would be a good middle-ground

Cheers
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: oldgoat on May 02, 2018, 11:14:52 AM
At the rate things are going you might get your wish.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 02, 2018, 03:50:48 PM

I note that the Australian government is similar though less blatant; while the public is fed green propaganda, the government is making a bundle licensing massive coal and gas exports to a consortium of the biggest oil/coal companies in the world. Meanwhile the Aussie public is paying grossly inflated prices for their dominantly coal fed power grid and for natural gas for domestic use.  This is an example of the sort of simple manipulation of democracy that is happening everywhere. 

We certainly get fed the green propaganda all right.
The Gubbermint is making a fortune out of it in every regard.  The green thing is shoved down our throats endlessly and every new tax, increase in fees and charges or justification for gubbermint expenditure is put down to environmental reasons.

There is not a Single night where some pollie is not on the square Box talking green something or another as if they are really doing something meaningful and that will make a difference.


Quote
Australia has better quality greenwashing but if you look at the first page of the report showing a chart of exports, you will see their gas and coal exports continue to increase... 

Yeah, I'm sure our greenwashing is truly the very greenest. It NEVER stops. Nor do the idiotic ideas and proposals from the green ministers and activists.
I think they are in the pocket of big biz just as much as the gubbermint and may well be nothing more than a smoke screen.

The coal export thing is very interesting. For  the last 2-3 years now we have been greenwashed constantly that the coal industry is dead and buried and that we have lost massive export dollars because no one is buying coal any more.  We are also told there is a gas shortage and that may cause power shortages as we have a decent amount of gas generation ( nearly all the power in some states is gas fired)  but still we are exporting what we have left instead of providing for our own people first.

Not so long ago we were told the gas would virtually never run out. More recently we were bombarded with ads in all media about how we desperately Needed clean, safe Fracking. Yeah, the US experience with that has been great hasn't it?
Not sure but I have a feeling it's been banned here now. Thank god if it has.  Certainly I haven't heard a mention of it in some time where as a couple of years ago the marketing for it was saturated and everywhere you turned. I saw ads extolling it's virtues on the back of busses!

Friend of my uncles had a first hand experience with it. Couldn't have been any more in contrast to what the ads and propaganda made it out to be.
Might have been a good thing actually. Turned everyone off it for literally hundreds of KM around and no doubt stopped a lot of other people screwing their land the same way.
At one stage they wanted to put a well in a park in the inner city next to a school. looked like it was going to get through for a while as well till it was thrown out on a legal hitch at the last minute.

We were fed BS about the " New " way of doing it was different and the typical nuke like propaganda about about it being all safe and clean and not like the old ways.  Took about 10 sec on google to realise the " New " was was causing every bit as many problems where it was bing done OS as the old way did.  Same excrement, different dog.
Clearly another case of gubbermint BS.

Quote
Germany doesn't have much in the way of domestic oil and gas, but I did find some charts that show that their imports of same are increasing.  Their coal production and use is increasing.

So much BS and 2 faced lies.

When you see this going on, how can anyone take the EV dominance in 10 years or beyond thing seriously?
Clearly the gubbermints don't have any thing like the commitment that spruik  about green matters. They will talk the talk now to get the votes and line their own pockets and then when they are gone and enjoying their fortunes it will be up to the next guy to tell the public it was all a farce and can't be done...... Or be the ones seen to be costing tax payers Billions to for implementing something that solves nothing at all.

Really, could places like China be any worse than what we get in the west?
We are screwed over and abused more than they are I think, just in a more subtle and underhanded way and by a smiling assassin not one carrying and AK-74.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 04, 2018, 09:04:18 PM
I found a really well written technical article on molten salt thorium reactors also known as LFTR or liquid fluoride thorium reactor. Fluoride is the salt Alvin Weinberg used in his successful thorium fueled reactor at Oak Ridge in the 60's.

https://eic.rsc.org/feature/is-thorium-the-perfect-fuel/2000092.article

There some good links for more info at the bottom of it.

Be wary of articles about solid fuel thorium (aka fast thorium) which is not at all the same.

The very interesting aspect of this article was that Alvin Weinberg's LFTR reactor work at Oak Ridge was re-found by a NASA engineer looking for a way to have nuclear power on the moon- where water can't be used for the typical solid uranium fuel, pressurized water system. 

This benefit of LFTR (aka molten salt thorium) would be HUGE in the southwestern US or other landlocked desert areas.  CO2 or Helium are heated to drive turbines, instead of steam. That approach has been proven by the pebble bed prototype reactor in Germany and that component did work well, though the pebbles of graphite coated uranium had serious  problems.  Massive water use by all the steam powered (coal and the Palo Verde nuclear) electrical power plants here in AZ are a very serious problem; all our ancient aquifers are shrinking. We are living on borrowed time, water wise, and growth is continuing. Climate prospects for the SW US are hotter and drier. 











Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 13, 2018, 10:21:04 AM

Been reading up a bit over the last week on EV's and checking out the latest on my favourite sham company, Tesla.

They seem to be heading into deeper red ink and the only people that are denying that are Musk and the Tesla brainwashed Fanboys.

The one thing I have seen which proves something I have read and come to believe myself is that Tesla seems to be carrying on like it's the ONLY EV manufacturer.
There is a Load of new Vehicles coming out to enter the EV market and they will all be arriving in the next 18 Months.
Right here in Ozatm, I can't even get a model 2 for 18monts to 2 years..... which is tesla's forecast so it's an odds on bet that is the usual over promise and under deliver so to be taken  very lightly.

What I wouldn't take likley is the release dates set by the big companies like Hyuandi, GM and others as well as their offshoots like Jaguar.
There are going to be at least 10 new models in the market and production before Model 3 orders are near satisfied.  Looking through the specs of these Vehicles, it's interesting to note that no one has even bothered much to try and compete with Tesla on the acceleration stakes other than Maybe Ferrari which has an EV quietly being worked on. Obviously like it's not a requirement of everyone to have  V8 tyre shredder in an IC vehicle, it's not a requirement for a lot of Potential EV owners either.

One company CEO whom have many high performance cars in their line up now actually laughed at the idea that a practical family car needs to do 0-60 in 3 sec.  I'm sure thee are a lot of savings to be made in production of a vehicle that does the same sort of performance as people are used to now and probably don't use a lot over all.  All of these new ev's seem to have a range of over 400Km which makes them quite practical and the charging times on some are very quick.

One thing I noted though is from what I saw, the companies seem at this time to be all trying to build their own charging stations.  Maybe the car manufacturers see this as a way to pull back lost servicing Bucks.  Tie you into THEIR charger and make profit on the power they sell you.... which was related to something else I became aware of....

Tesla Vehicles are connected to Tesla HQ and they constantly monitor their Vehicles. They know how much power they are using, if there is a hot cell somewhere, how far you have traveled, when the things need a service ( and yes, the DO need servicing) and where the vehicle is at any given time.
Might sound well and good they are keeping an eye on their vehicles and can warn of problems before they occour but as to be expected, there are ulteriour Motives.

I saw a vid about a bloke who bought a panel Damaged Tesla.  No major hits, just light panel damage. He repaired the vehicle, got it passed for re registration with no probs and was happy as a monk in a Convent.... untill he wanted to take the thing for a long trip so sent it to a Tesla service centre.
Knowing everything about the vehicle they verified change of ownership and were told how the thng had been repaired and re registered.

Apparently all used vehicles are supposed to or desired to be serviced and onsold by Tesla which this one was not being all private transactions.
Guy get his car back, cload up the family and gets 400 Miles into the trip and realises that tesla have turned off the Supercharging capeabity an other features of the Vehicle.  Their reason being that as they haven't check the thing out, it COULD be dangerous so no supercharging for you  Fred.

Apparently they have the ability to turn these things off as well as track you.  Great if your car gets stolen they can shut it down remotely but if you have an argument with the service manager or they see the hasn't been back for it's scheduled brake pad change and you dd it yourself, they can get the shits and claim they can't be certain the Vehicle is roadworthy and shut thing thing down like a Bricked Iphoney.

Stuffed If I want anyone having that sort of control of my vehicle like that.  I might be in a hurry and drive above the limit and they turn the thing off on me or whatever else they deem to be a reason to interfere.
it will be interesting to see if the other manufacturers adopt the same big brother god like attitude where you are relian't on them letting you drive your own ( supposedly ) vehicle.
Another thing that will be interesting to see is the spare parts. Unlike cars now where you can blow your motor and get another from a smashed car and put it in and be on your way, Tesla parts are all coded and keyed to that car. You can't take from one and put on the other and expect it to work.
I imagine Tesla will have to approve the part replacement, for a Fee of course and enable it.  I can see delays and stuff ups there galore!

All this thing about saving on serviceing I can see being a real crock.  Bring it back to us to be repaired, approved and reset or the thing will be turned off/ or expire. One can imagine what the far and few between servicing costs are going to be. Your Local independent Mechanic will be well and truly a thing of the past.

The manufacturers/ Stealers may be going to take a bit of a dip on the endlessly parroted "" No oil changes"  But I sure can see a whole bunch of ways they will be able to make it up 10 times over by never letting you out of their grip.

Wasn't it Henry Ford that said he'd give the cars away if there was a way to make sure the owners had to come back to him for parts?
100 years later looks like the manufactures haven't forgotten that.  We may only be leasing/ hiring Vehicles per Month/ mile in the future rather than owing.
They are thee to make money not Friends after all.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on May 13, 2018, 05:04:41 PM
Quote
They seem to be heading into deeper red ink and the only people that are denying that are Musk and the Tesla brainwashed Fanboys.

I prefer to think of myself as a Elon Fanboy.  What an amazing person.  What an amazing life - so far.  I stopped by a Tesla showroom in a large shopping center East of Seattle.  Even the Model 3 is way big for me and the prices are closer to the land deals I still dream about.  There are more vehicles coming down the marketing road that make much more sense to me but they would not be here this or probably next decade without the Elon.

Another amazing thing to me is that oil companies still think of themselves as oil companies and not energy giants.  They're missing the electrical charging station scramble just as the railroads missed the pipeline phenomena.  Railroads are transportation companies but decided the transportation of liquids in tubes was and is outside their service in spite of all those right of ways.  Han't anyone told the oil moguls that much of the electricity they would be selling is made with petroleum and will continue to be produced this way for a couple of decades?

 I'm concerned that Elon hasn't read about Henry Ford and the tragedy of his life story?  Anyway.

Go Elon!  Turn this world on it's ear.  Go Elon!
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on May 13, 2018, 08:01:29 PM
  While Elon is an excellent salesman. Elon can not change the laws of physics.   
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 13, 2018, 11:24:13 PM
Not only can he not change the laws of physics I don`t believe he can change the way people work. The idea of charging an EV from your solar PV system is possibly doable during mid summer in Australia. The problem is that most people use their cars during the day to commute to and from work, so their car will be in a car park. Not at home on charge.

These commuters are going to drive home and want to charge their EVs over night, when there is no solar generation. Imagine the spike in demand at around six o'clock each evening. millions of workers returning home, turning on the air conditioning, TV, boiling the kettle, cooking supper and charging their EVs. Fossil fuel power stations will have to go into overdrive, belching out CO2 and other emissions.

The grid in Australia already struggles to power air conditioners on hot days, grid outages due to this overloading are common.
Elon Musk and co may be visionaries and great salesmen but they clearly  haven`t thought this through.

The government and power companies are going to have to engage in some joined up thinking if they want to ever make this work.

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 13, 2018, 11:29:54 PM
I never fail to be amazed how Gullible some people can be especially when they have the facts in front of them and still want to dismiss them for Ideals and pipe dreams never Fulfilled.
There are so many people hoping beyond hope for a Miracle to believe in they will put good sense and logic behind them to champion a cause they are so desperate to see one Miracle in their lives.

I have learnt a lot Observing Musk and Tesla  about sales that's for sure! It's more about the story and the dream than the actual product.  If you can sell a good story, you don't need a product in the first place. At last count Tesla has over 3 Billion in it's pocket from deposits on products  it's yet to deliver.

Casey,
I'm genuinely interested to hear why you think Musk is turning the world on it's ear?
I know of nothing he's done which hasn't been done before so what makes him such a hero to you?
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 13, 2018, 11:52:50 PM
Another issue that hasn`t been properly addressed is the longevity of lithium iron batteries. If you are anything like me you probably have a shed full of rechargeable power tools that no longer hold a charge. How many fast/slow charging cycles will the battery in a Telsa be able to handle? What will be the cost for replacements and what will this do to the resale value? Do they come with a meter so that someone buying a used Tesla can tell how long the batteries will last before they need replacement?

Too much hype, too many questions and not enough answers.

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 14, 2018, 12:35:44 AM

Elon Musk and co may be visionaries and great salesmen but they clearly  haven`t thought this through.

I have worked in sales myself and the biggest advantage I have in my service business is my ability to sell far better than the majority of my competitors.
To me, the difference between a salesman and a conman is one can deliver what they promise and the other does not.
Mush has REPEATEDLY  from years back made promises and broken them over and over and over again yet the deciples of the religion he has created are easily brainwashed by more promises.

He's still years behind on fulfilling orders for his model X and he's got the deciples all excited now about a Model Y. He's also talking dates for that he's never come within a bulls roar of delivering on any other product he's launched and would overlap production of the model 3 he can't even get out the door.  This is not a matter of being a Hater as the disciples love to label anyone, it's a matter of FACT and well documented history.

We ALL want to believe in a miracle, we all want a cause to champion and make us feel better about the world BUT, some of us are a lot more realistic than others.  When I see Musk or anyone else start pulling Rabbits out of hats I'll be the first on their bandwagon but untill I see they have done it rather than promised it, I'll reserve my excitement.

I have been reading on another forum and talking to people whom have bought these Tesla Power wall Batteries.
To sum up, these people make laughable excuses to justify the things.  It's more than clear they will NEVER return their investment in savings but these Muskwashed supporters keep telling me they bought the thing things for reasons OTHER than ROI and then ask how much ROI did I get out of buying a car or going on a holiday as if there is any comparison to a think that sits on the wall and Costs you a min of 12K to have there which you will NEVER get back.

They say they bought them for blackout protection, to make the most of their own self generated power to save the environment and other crap.
Right...... So you spent 12K becuuse last summer you had ONE blackout that lasted 4 hours and you never thought to go buy a generator and maybe even an ATS for a fraction of that price to prevent a one off event?  For self generated power you spent $12K so you could use power you could have bought for maybe 20 years from the grid because you are only using it at night, you still get to use it through the day.
You are saving the environment by using a product that's full of Lithium batteries that are one of THE most dirty and pollouting Mining and production operations and have NO way to be recycled.....
makes you wonder how these people every got enough money to afford the things in the first place given the ignorance and stupidity of their Justifications.

The truth is they were just Won over ( conned) by Musk and his fanfare. No one ( with a Brain) buys a battery for the enjoyment of it and isn't in it for a financial return especially when that's most of the products sales pitch.  The truth is they bought the things THEN woke up they were conned and are now trying to still champion the cause they believe in and save face at the same time.

The thing I have with musk is the ramifications of what will happen if he goes Tit's up.  Thousands of people will be adversely affected.  People will loose their Jobs, people will loose their money and people will have to clean up the mess of one persons self indulgences.
I was reading about some Investment fund that have gone with Tesla on Bonds I think they are. They are retirement funds and if they don't go through till the end of the year/ mid next year, they will be at a loss. If they do go through and tesla goes down in the meantime they loose everything.
IF tesla survives and they get to maturity and then the fund managers pull them out, that in itself could cause the Cashflow to dry up and tesla still sinks.

Right now, from what I can see, there isn't a financial analyst out there that thinks: A, anyone in their right Minds should invest in Tesla, B. they have a hope in hell of reaching production outputs they have repeatedly missed and extended only to miss again, C, they will be able to survive once the big guns like GM, Ford and CHrysler and all the other car companies they own unleash their offerings and global might and, D, Tesla will survive at all.

It's not just about cars either. Right now they are not making ANY money on ANY Of their products and they are all in a shortfall.
Power walls are not available in regular supply, Tiles never have been, semi truck is still a pipe dream and so it goes.
There are also a lot of loans and Bonds Falling due before years end and if they default on any of those, good bye tesla.

Anyone can make big promises, no skill in that but to make good on them is what makes a real world changer and so far Musk has done NOTHING new, original or outstanding. In many ways he's just paved the way for his competition to launch products which will undermine his fragile position even further.

If he does go down, watch what happens.  You won't be able to find any of these fanboys that will say they supported him and he was a visionary and all the rest of it. They will disappear into the ether and never put their hand up to admit they backed the wrong horse  OR... They will still be making excuses and blaming everyone else for Musks failure but the person responsible.

Probably the very human behavior people like Musk count on from the start.



Quote
The government and power companies are going to have to engage in some joined up thinking if they want to ever make this work.

Bob

They already are Bob.
They can see the writing on the wall and are preparing for it.

Tesla isn't the only one pushing batteries and EV's.  There are a number of other manufacturers with products in the market that allow people to charge from panels or at night at off grid Pricing and use said power in peak periods when power is much more expensive.  The EV evangilists have seen the light ( pun intended) and have the ability to program the time their cars charge  so they can take advantage of off peak rates as well. The writing on the wall is there will be little peak demand because all these other heavy power consumption devices will start kicking in when everyones asleep and the power cos will be selling a ship load of power at cheap rates but still have to be providing it with expensive coal/ FF generated power.  In the case of the Greenwashed state, SA, that would be with Diesel generators !

There is a submission right now in front of the gubbermint power pricing review board to do away with TOU ( Time of use) plans and make power one flat rate.  That's due to be decided on end of next month or July.
TOU when it was brought in was a method for the power co's  to maximise returns but screwing people on power prices when they needed it most.  Now with the uptake and growing demand for home batteries to get homes through that period with cheap/ free power, they see the flaw in the plan and are trying another plan of fleecing people.

The other think they are looking at is increasing Supply charges dramatically.  That's the thing you can't avoid if you want to stay connected. They are also pushing for the old water Board trick of if the power runs past your place, you have to be connected to it whether you are or not.  The more they can get out of the supply charge the more they get out of everyone.
It will be interesting to see how this goes as it is a breach of basic consumer law in that one cannot charge for what they do not provide.

The reasoning they are trying to push is the more people that go off grid the more burden is on people still remaining to pay for the gold plated power poles. It's all made out like the power co's are not posting Tens or hundreds of Millions in profit every quarter.

The other thing the power co's are going into damage control with now is more limitation on the amount of solar that can be installed on roof tops.
While they are busting guts to build solar farms and we know there is a great power shortage, they are trying to limit the amount of renewables  and power people can have.

Once again why I say over and over that the whole green thing is a complete and utter crock.  On one hand they carry on about closing coal fired power stations then they have to build Diesel fired plants after the y knock over the coal ones then while crying and sooking that we need everything to be renewable they Thwart that very idea when it takes a buck out of their  pockets.

They are carrying on now about there being an over supply of power from home solar. Oh shock horror! Too much clean , renewable power . What a Distaster...... For their greedy profit mongering that is!  Another excuse is the grid isn't set up to handle all that back feed. Well, what about fixing it so it can? Instead of building those solar farms 1000 KM from where the power is actually needed, how about investing in the infrastructure so it can be distributed ight where it WILL be used instead?  You have to build feeder lines from the solar farms, put the money into infrastructure  so every home can backfeed PV to the grid.

But of course, that's laughable. I am proposing something that will loose the power cos'  money so that's out the window along with all the bullshit about saving the environment with clean energy. 
Got to apply the Right BS at the right time because if you don't, you shoot their won arguments down in flames and make them look like the greedy corporate parasites they are.

/rant
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 14, 2018, 12:46:54 AM
Another issue that hasn`t been properly addressed is the longevity of lithium iron batteries. If you are anything like me you probably have a shed full of rechargeable power tools that no longer hold a charge.

The irony I see is a corner stone of the EV/ Powerwall hype is the world is running out of oil and it's a limited resource so we must find something else to supply the fuel for out Vehicles and industry. 
They are trying to offset the use of oil , one limited Commodity, with the use of Lithium batteries which is an even more limited commodity they know about right from the start!  Lithium is not like oil where they say we might run out in 50 years, they are talking 10 years or less!

Of course if you point that out to the proponents they will bring up the  " But they are working on....." typical Vaporwear crap about something not yet invented saving the world.  Heard that too many times before.

I do wonder about what you point out though Bob.
 I can't get batteries in a laptop that is always run off the mains power and never cycled to last more than about 3-4 years but they are trying to convince me that batteries in a power wall which use the same technology and are cycled daily are going to last 10-15???
At the same time they tell you to try and limit cycling because each time you do it's more wear and tear on the cells and they have a limited number of Cycle ability??

We really need put install a head banging on a brick wall emoticon for these discussions.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 14, 2018, 02:56:16 AM
Hey Glort, great and detailed rant.
The only good thing about banging your head on a brick wall is that it`s nice when you stop. Trouble is that involves admitting defeat. I have no intention of being defeated by the sort of greedy witless wonders that now run the world.

Your predictions of impending insolvency for Tesla are well founded. No doubt Mr Musk will not be personally liable for any of the losses and will walk away a very wealth man. The shareholders will get shafted, suppliers will not get paid and the public purse will have to pay to clean up the mess.

With regards to TOU, the government will do whatever is likely to bring in the most revenue. Expect massive inflation of prices with annual increases dialled in every year for the next decade.
Hope you have become fully self sufficient before then.

I have been researching the old Edison batteries that last an eternity. Trouble is they are expensive and bulky. If I find time I would like to experiment with building my own. Nickel and iron are plentiful and not too pricey. Wonder how much storage one might get out of a cell the size of an IBC tank?

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 14, 2018, 04:00:42 AM

 suppliers will not get paid

That was something else I was reading about that's come up in the last week I have not seen mentioned before.
Apparently suppliers are now becoming wary about Tesla's Finances and Impending loan repayments.  The position was if they fail on their production outputs again and burn through any more cash, it is likely suppliers are going to try to protect their butts and put Tesla on COD for the parts.
As Tesla runs and has pretty much always run on other peoples money, once that happens it's the certain death knell for them. 

I also read something that said the production output of Tesla model 3 were s top gap measure because they were losing $30K on each car.  Production keeps cash flow up but increases overall Debt. That may be ok in the short term but there is no profit coming in from anywhere else atm either so it really just puts off a bigger crash if they don't start making money.... which they never have in 15 years they have been going.  Got to give it to Musk for pulling that  one off but again, Just going to be a bigger mess if they do go down.

The whole thing with the cars particularly to me is somewhat laughable. Electric cars were around in the '20's.  The fact Musk made them fast and have longer range was no miracle either. He created no new technology, the things use Laptop batteries to power them! Toymotor and other use more advanced Power packs.

 This thing about being the first is also a delusion.
Why Didn't GM ford or anyone else do it? Because they knew all along what Mush has found out, the market was n't ready and unlike him, they weren't going to blow Billions on a product that was not profitable. It's ridiculous to think these mega companys don't have their finger on the pulse and are not doing market research 24/7.  they know what they can make a buck out of and when there is adequate demand, they service the demand.
They have dipped their toes in the water, probably for more R&D but as the market demonstrated limited demand, why would they go ahead and make a product that is not profitable?

Just because Tesla wants to come along and create a lot of Hype and make an unprofitable product does not earn them any cred or make the CEO a visionary, in my mind it just makes him a poor and in this case, egotistical business man especially when he's playing with other peoples money.
Yes, he has a stake in it but you can bet sink or swim there is still major bucks in it for him.

Of course the guy is so filthy rich that he could loose 20 Billion and still have more money than any one person could ever know what to do with.


Quote
With regards to TOU, the government will do whatever is likely to bring in the most revenue.

EXACTLY!

Environment, saving consumers money and all the rest of the rhetoric is just BS and lip service to appease the sheeple voters.  Say one thing and do something completely different.

Quote
Expect massive inflation of prices with annual increases dialled in every year for the next decade.

I do think there is a limit but I also think they too will be monitoring the pain point and just keep nudging at that level.

Quote
Hope you have become fully self sufficient before then.

I am, generation wise now.  Storage of course is the catch.  I reckon though that for about $7K I could get batteries, chargers and Inverters to become self sufficient in power.  Add in a lister for backup and it could be more economical than staying on the grid.

Quote
I have been researching the old Edison batteries that last an eternity. Trouble is they are expensive and bulky. If I find time I would like to experiment with building my own. Nickel and iron are plentiful and not too pricey. Wonder how much storage one might get out of a cell the size of an IBC tank?

If they were remotely reasonable, for people with a little space like you and I, wouldn't matter if we had 10 that size.

I'll have to look them up and see what goes into the things. From memory they are very long lasting but not very powerful capacity wise.
For 2500 I can get a real decent forklift pack that would provide a full days energy with me running the ducted AC, water heater and everything else as I do now.
The inverters/ chargers get to be the exy bit.

I really don't want to go that way. I'm getting over mucking around with things I don't have to. Playing is different, necessity where there is no fun is something else but if it  means I am free from being totally screwd on power bills, I'll be in it up to my neck. :0)


Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 14, 2018, 04:57:38 AM
The problem with the NIFE (Edison) batteries is price and performance.   The charge and discharge efficiency is quite poor relative to even wet lead, atrocious compared to AGM lead. If you try to pump too much current into them, all you do is end up lots of water loss.  They have much bigger swings of voltage than lead acid batteries for both charging and discharging.  All that would be livable, even with the very high water use that Mike reports on his 48V set, if only the price wasn't so steep. Iron Edison in the US makes them, but their smallest (100ah) cells for my 120V system would be $9500 plus freight. (vs $1000 for local wet lead with a well proven service life of 4.5 years).

I read about a tech breakthrough for improved NIFE batteries about 5-6 years ago but as usual, nothing has come of it.  According to this article in Forbes,  lithium isn't the big problem, but cobalt might be.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-lithium-battery-future/



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 14, 2018, 07:35:08 AM

I did a search for making ones own batteries and the only think I came up with for the nickel iron is toy batteries.
Everyone else it seems has gone to making the Tesla type packs out of used Laptop batteries.

From what I have seen, a source for those is more good luck than anything else.
Some people out there have invested a LOT of time and effort into building these packs and some seem to be running into a few problems with cells falling over which is to be expected. 

A number of them seem to be like me, get onto something and go overboard with it.  I could well see myself building up 100KWH packs as well.
I have the solar generation, now I need the storage to go with it.


Spose if you could get a supply of the cells they would be a cheap and effective way to go off grid.  If your supply was ongoing you just build another pack every so often to replace any crook ones and it's all good.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on May 14, 2018, 08:15:36 AM
Quote

I prefer to think of myself as a Elon Fanboy.  What an amazing person.  What an amazing life - so far.  I stopped by a Tesla showroom in a large shopping center East of Seattle.  Even the Model 3 is way big for me and the prices are closer to the land deals I still dream about.  There are more vehicles coming down the marketing road that make much more sense to me but they would not be here this or probably next decade without the Elon.

Kodak might be an illuminating lesson:

Remember when those little yellow boxes of film were everywhere and their logo was as recognisable as Coca-Cola?

But they missed the boat when digital came along.  I used to make a chunk of my living back then selling words to magazines - and words weren't worth much without pictures.  That Kodak 400 was a mainstay.  I owned a couple of Kodak's early digital efforts; but they were always a few months too late, always trying to play catchup . . .

And now they're gone.  Their billions and their grasp on the industry couldn't save them from becoming dinosaurs and ending up extinct

It would be a wonderful irony if the oil companies went the same way

And, I too applaud Mr Musk, Casey.  All visionaries are so focussed as to be flawed at best and self-imploding at worst.  It doesn't matter how he, personally, ends up; his legacy is already established IMHO
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 14, 2018, 05:52:14 PM
Bob, Your comment hits the nail on the head, and explains why used EVs don't hold value for resale:

Quote
How many fast/slow charging cycles will the battery in a Telsa be able to handle? What will be the cost for replacements and what will this do to the resale value? Do they come with a meter so that someone buying a used Tesla can tell how long the batteries will last before they need replacement?

As I noted earlier, with present service life of the lithium batteries, using the optimistic figures provided by Tesla, the ongoing battery replacement cost per mile is greater than present US fuel prices for a gas ignition vehicle, not even including the cost of the charging.  Thus Tesla did the smart thing in selling them as luxury cars.


Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 14, 2018, 11:51:08 PM
Thus Tesla did the smart thing in selling them as luxury cars.

Did being the operative word. With the model 3 trying to be the cheaper version of the Volkswagen, the car for everybody, they have run into massive problems.  Can't produce them fast enough, can't produce them well enough and probably using the wrong Tech to power them.

I was watching a very interesting Vid last night on the Teslas. t featured a guy called sandy munroe who owns a company that dissects products and does reports on them for competitirs to see how the other product is built. The do stuff for everyone from people making Kettles to aircraft and sell their reports to NASA and car companies.

They got their hands on a couple of Model 3's and the guys conclusions were interesting.
basically he said the " skateboard"  ( Chassis, suspension etc ) was  fantastic. Said the car handled fantastic.  Said the electronics were incredible, Fighter jet level.  The battery was extremely well constructed and had good balancing. He noted that on the BMW I3 a crook cell could be be pulled out on a card and replaced, in/ out.
The tesla battery is covered in a silicone substance and the construction means there is no way to replace a bad cell if one was to get one.

The battery uses the new size larger cells Tesla developed but when you are using 1000 or however many of something, particularly a new product, Myself I'd say there is a fairly high chance that in mass production you are going to get the odd Dud.  Happens with everything else made, Can't see Tesla avoiding it.

The rest of the car the guy equated to an early model Kia of the '90's.  He wouldn't even say how bad the fit and finish was for fear of peing persecuted by the Tesla fan boys.  He noted some of their comments to other writers whom have said negative things about teslas and noted their obsessive bias and dedication to the brand.

He was of the opinion the car was built in a rush by unskilled labour which was the only thing he could explain the mistakes like parts being fit backwards and other problems.  Mechanically he thought the car was junk and noted rattles, thumps and noises even he and his highly experience team could not explain and had not yet found reasons for other than poor and out of date engineering.

It was facinating to think there are companies out there that get cars and even aircraft, Dissect themm and then issue reports on their construction down to the number of spot welds, length of welds, materials, construction methods, costings etc. and sell them to competitors.
Also was interesting was the people he had sold his reports to...  Several to china, japan, Taiwan, Germany, UK, Canada, some Baltic countries and others. Perhaps Ignorantly, I had no idea there was anyone out there doing that. I certainly thought other manufactures may buy a competitors car and reverse engineer it but never you could just go buy a report and an incredibly detailed one at that.

It certainly puts a new light on the Competition tesla faces.  All their competitors can now use these reports to intergrate features and know eexactly where their competitors strengths and weaknesses lie and come out with a better, cheaper product.....
And that was something Munroe was fascinated or more accurately, dismayed by.  The model 3 is WAY over built. Might sound good but his conclusion was it's over weight and overly expensive for NO benifit. He noted they could achieve even better strength and rigitidy using well known construction techniques and save a LOT on costs but they were currently using poor design and construction methods.

This was a point that flawed him. He said they have do so well with the high tech but the basic, well known stuff that's been around for decades has escaped them.  He thought some of their tech was space age and incredibly advanced but then they couldn't get the doors to shut properly and that was due to problems well sorted in the industry decades ago......  When you start with a body shell and pile all the gear into it and add running gear etc and tighten it all down the body changes shape and moves.  A very basic and known thing in vehicle production but something tesla has missed and still is.

Something Very intersting both in general and in reference to Tesla was the guys insight to robots of which he is vastly experience. He was talking about how Tesla made the same mistakes trying to put robots on the production line GM did over 20 years ago. He said a Robot is Blind, Dumb and one armed.
He said you have to design process and even parts for robotic assembly. If  robot can't even pick up and hold the part, then the rest is useless.
They have limited range of movement and can't problem solve or adapt like a human. He said even today, robotics are limited in what they can do well and effectively and they don't save all that much money over humans in a lot of areas because they cost millions to by, more still to program, have to be maintained and repaired.

The Vid was about an hour and although just basically talking, was a fascinating thing to watch.
It was also a bit scary from the POV of Tesla. All their info is out there already and you can bet there are companies working to copy and improve what they can, get costs down and come up with a better. cheaper product.  In some things that won't be hard at all and they would probably do better already but in other things that are cutting edge, well lets just say they are not going to be cutting edge for long.

I'm sure this is something all manufacturers have to deal with but for a company like tesla that innovation is so important to, would seem to me to be a terrible threat to their business.
They too can buy the report and Munroe said he hopes Tesla will commission his company to make improvements to their process and production as they are employed by the aerospace industry to do because he could make massive improvements and changes.  That's OK for Future models that like any start up are generally questionable but the thing for Tesla is it needs to sell the model 3's to survive and get to the point of a new model.

Reading more about their cash flows, finances and market confidence, their longevity seems to be getting that bit more questionable every day.
Some are certainly backing and believing they will be around in years to come but they are definitely in the minority.
John Delorean was a visionary as well but that didn't end up doing them a lot of good either. Tesla is making more cars a week than delorean ever did so if tesla go under, there will be a LOT of people with cars that will become virtually worthless over night.  Doubt they will even be collectors cars in the future as there will be too many of them grabbed by the fan boys to become rare enough to have any value. they will just be a worthless old car you can't  even drive given how reliant they are on being connected to the Tesla HQ to allow them to run in the first place.

I do think Electrics WILL become available from a load of Manufacturers and we will be bombarded with them over the next maybe 5-10 years. I do not see them becoming the significant presence on our roads the greenwashed and supporters champion.
They are already starting off with a significan't flaw that will bit them on the butt the second they really get going.... availability of battery materials.

I am also reading more and more about Hydrogen being the new tech of the future. It's flawed in many ways as well However, being able to refuel the things in minutes rather than hours  and not crashing the grid doing so are Very big advantages.  Some companies like Honda are really developing them hard and other like Mercedes are working on them and Electrics so they have an each way bet should things become a VHS/ Beta type race.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 15, 2018, 12:09:56 AM
Hi BruceM, you are right about charging a premium price for a luxury product. The problem is that Tesla are trying to ramp up production to make EVs mainstream. You can`t charge premium prices for a mainstream product. At the same time Ford, GM and others are also trying to get into the EV market. This competition may be good for the consumer but could be catastrophic for Tesla.

If I were Mr Musk I would be trying to corner the market on Lithium, Cobalt and Nickel production but I suspect that the big mining companies are streets ahead of him knowing that Ford, GM and etc. have very deep pockets.

Hi Glort, we come back again to the issue of storage, it`s cost, longevity and reliability. Being a bit of a hillbilly, I live on a hill. I could easily build two mega litre dams with a head of more than 150m between them. I could use solar to pump water up during the day and use hydro generation to recover the energy at night. The cost of such a system is astronomical. The pump would need to be three phase so a three phase invertor is required and so on. Way cheaper to pay the power companies.

I agree that the cheapest is to use a deep cycles forklift battery pack with a Lister/Listeroid back up generator. Especially with the availability and your knowledge of WVO. I don`t know what it would cost to buy a forklift charger but there must be a few floating about, just a case of finding them.

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 15, 2018, 04:00:43 AM
Hydrogen would be a handy way of storing excess PV, despite the inefficiency (60% is optimistic) of electrolysis of water.  At modest pressures it can be stored in LOTS of propane tanks without embrittlement problems, but it costs a fortune in tanks since it stays a gas and energy density by volume is pathetic.  That sucks because larger capacity storage is what you'd really like or a battery would be much simpler.  There are hydride storage systems for hydrogen in the development stage but no big bucks behind that.  The hydride storage schemes I've read about would be suited to a vehicle storage (which would also be a nice size for a home); the hydride granules absorb hydrogen at low pressure and when heated, release it. 

Some serious advanced development in hydrogen storage and electrolysis efficiency would be very helpful.  I'd love to store up hydrogen gas for backup home heating, cooking and running my ammonia refrigerator with my excess PV capacity, as well as for a vehicle.  Alas, no big investments here that I can see, only very small scale, long term academic type research.  Until the hydride media or better yet a complete hydride tank with integrated heaters are available at decent prices, it's a bust.









Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 15, 2018, 05:16:44 AM

I wonder what the return would be on using PV to keep an insulated tank warm so one could do Methane as against making Hydrogen?  You would be adding in other energy in the form of waste so the returns may well be better depending on how much heat it required to to keep the digester where it's happy. Might be OK for a part year thing anyway.

In my limited experimentation, Methane is a lot more friendly to work with than hydrogen. That stuff wants to blow my head off!
There are a Number of Methane fired power plants round here. They are built on old garbage dumps. They cover the ground with plastic sheet and draw off the gas and burn it in gas turbines to produce power. There are a couple of such facilities near me.
These old Dumps must produce an LOT of gas to enable a Turbine to be run 24/7!
 Wonder what sort of area you'd have to cover to run a small 5 Kw engine off this gas?

Biogas is popular in India and some other warm Climates.  I had a lash at it some years ago but apparently adding sugar made booze not gas. I have a Black IBC up the yard I got just to try this. Might give it a go again when it warms up. I have a resource now I never had before... manure as well as Kitchen/ food scraps.

Something else on the list to play with.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 15, 2018, 06:10:48 AM
Alas, it takes a LOT of manure to make a useful amount of methane.  I did the calculations once for household septic system and found it produced a useless amount of gas. 




Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 15, 2018, 09:31:53 AM

Double post
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 15, 2018, 09:35:38 AM

The ones on YT I have seen are about IBC size and appear to generate enough gas for a family to cook on.

The one I did produced plenty of gas as well, just turned out to be the wrong gas apparently. I don't know how much Methane is produced but I am lead to believe it would be a similar amount.

Most of the Indian Digesters get by with whatever household scraps there are a day. manure is said to have lower production but is good for starting the process off.  I would guess a horse or a cow would produce enough " output" to fuel a digester pretty easy.
I can get all the manure I want round here and if you could get friendly with a  local restaurant to give you some food scraps....

My cousin is a project development officer with a bank. he was telling me a while back about a company that has developed a system for food industries.
They put the food waste in the processor which grids it up and it sets in a slurry in a tank.  The truck comes round, Pumps out the tank and takes it back to the company facility. They use the wate to feed digesters which makes gas they run generators on and sell the power and sell the output from the digesters as fertiliser.  Cousin said the business was going great gun and had huge potential.

I have also sen Vid where Dairys, piggerys and feedlots are using the animal waste  to power Biogas plants and produce power from that.
Pretty interesting Stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTJ4KFO50oc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbxI1R207B0

 

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on May 15, 2018, 02:37:24 PM
Best way to store energy is to add a little carbon to the hydrogen and make natural gas/methane . Or use surplus off peak nuclear steam and natural gas in the presence of a catalyst.  Various easy to store, easy to transport and clean burning light hydro carbon fuels can be manufactured .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: dieselspanner on May 15, 2018, 03:47:56 PM
If anyone wants to try a home made digester there's plenty of sheep shite up here in the Pyrenees, at the moment the local farmers are digging out the deep litter barns after the winter.

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 15, 2018, 04:49:41 PM
Interesting videos, Glort, thanks.  500KW 24/7 from the first farm and it's recapture of the NG fired generator heat for farm and home use was impressive.  Wish they had more details on the digester and handling of municipal trash.  I wonder how the project was funded; the up front capital costs seem way beyond most north country dairy farms, though the one shown was a pretty big operation.


Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on May 15, 2018, 07:47:19 PM
One of the farms I work on had a system quoted for them:

They milk maybe 800 cows and their effluent pond is the size of a swimming pool

Depending on the season their power bill is maybe $10-25K a month

The system quoted would generate enough power from "digesting" their dairy effluent to run the farm all year round - or so it was claimed

Cost estimate was $NZ 1 million

Those are just rough numbers, but that was the scale of it

Cheers
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 15, 2018, 10:00:41 PM
Very interesting, Mike. At 5% interest that system would be about 6.5 years payback just on the power offset. I guess the company selling the system probably has a financing deal as well. A win all around. 

Where I grew up dairy farmers worked damn hard and many were going under.  A decade or so later most had switched to just raising beef.  Pasteurizing (heating) all that milk would probably account for much of that power bill.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 15, 2018, 11:22:24 PM
Hydrogen production and storage has been done successfully. The trouble is that the catalyst is a precursor to a nuclear bomb and is therefore banned. The guy that built the prototype was a particle physicist and had access to a particle accelerator to make his own isotopes.

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 15, 2018, 11:54:37 PM
What is the name of the physicist who came up with more efficient electrolysis, Bob?  I'd like to find out more about his work.  I know hydride storage has been very well lab-proven, just not yet developed commercially. 

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 16, 2018, 01:17:17 AM
I wonder what sort of return ( in gas) one could get from a simple electrolysis system where you powered the thing with solar panels?

One would have to set up a system like an "H" shape to keep the oxygen seperate from the Hydrogen and for a connection between the 2 electrodes. Wonder if there is then any application for the oxygen?  I remember playing round in the shed years ago with a little 2 stroke motor I put a large Model plane propeller on.  engine wouldn't turn it very quick as it was oversized.  I used to wnd the mixture screw right out, get the thing spluttering along and then direct some oxygen into the carb from the gas axe and the thing almost tore the vice holding it off the bench.  Little engine survived that party trick  somehow, probably because I also pumped about double the oil into it.  :0)

Also leads me to wonder what the gas ratio is as far as a stove? With methane you can run the same jetting as with LPG. I suspect Hydrogen would be different then you have the problem of how to get the mixture for that correct for the stove.

I was thinking before about playing with a Chlorine generator. Same process only salt is used instead of Koh as the electrolyte.  You still get gas but it may contain some Chlorine gas. Wether this would be burnt off or produce some other even more toxic emission when used for cooking I don't know.
Perhaps a scrubber like a column of steel wool and or bubbling through water may remove it?

One advantage of this with solar is you wouldn't have to worry about power too much like is normally the holly grail for these things.  Get a few panels and pump in 500W and who cares particularly if you are using excess power anyway.
Sealing things is a problem with Hydrogen.  I wonder if Silicone or PVC sealer which I also use as thread locker and in place of Pipe tape which works well would do?

I did  make a Hohoho gas machine once.  Don't mind playing with DC solar and 600V induction generators nor mega oil burners but that Browns BS gas was beyond my sense of self preservation.
I did find the  setup made a very handy High power Dump load for testing generator outputs etc.  Unfortunately was also very effective as a kettle and the water boiled pretty quick at high currents  so would need to be a lot bigger and have cooling for continued use.
The gas output was quite impressive if scary.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on May 16, 2018, 01:47:57 AM
What is the name of the physicist who came up with more efficient electrolysis, Bob?  I'd like to find out more about his work.  I know hydride storage has been very well lab-proven, just not yet developed commercially.

    First I have ever heard of that . There is only going to be 1/6000 of the hydrogen gas being Deuterium which isn’t a big deal on it’s own. If deuterium is mixed with Tritium , this stuff goes Ka-Boom. Tritium is made from deuterium bombarded with neutrons in a PHWR reactor core .  Lithium-6-Deuteride is now used as a neutron source in the secondary instead of deuterium/Tritium mix.
   
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 16, 2018, 02:09:44 AM
Plenty of decent DIY electrolysis setups using stainless steel screens; the only bugger is the storage.  It is a pity to not be able to use the oxygen, since as you noted, it's a hell of a fuel booster, but like you, I found Brown's gas something to be be very careful around. It's shockingly explosive.  Isolation of oxygen at the plates seems to be the preferred method, as you noted, Glort.  You need a buck converter to dial down PV voltage or your efficiency will be poor and you'll boil off your electrolyte. If you need more gas production with reasonable efficiency it must be done by adding a lot more cathode and anode area. 

I did some experimenting with hydrogen when I was considering my off grid homestead plans. You can make it quite cheaply if you have access to scrap aluminum, just add lye-water solution but be prepared to deal with the substantial heat generated. It is a fabulous co-generator of heat plus hydrogen with relatively little aluminum consumed.  It can generate gas at moderate pressure without the need for a pump if your vessel can handle it as well as the lye water.

To use it in a conventional gas burner at 10" of water pressure, you must plug up roughly 2/3 of the holes and surround the propane burner element with stainless steel wool to act as a catalyst to lower the burn temperature.  With the stainless steel wool you can see the flame as bluish. You don't want air mixed in so stock gas-air mixers must be sealed well with foil tape and silicone caulk or lighting the burner will be dangerously explosive.  It did work, but for myself I found that the higher burning temperatures caused more oxides from air gasses, and I didn't find open hydrogen burning the odorless healthy panacea I was hoping for. (I did that testing with lab grade hydrogen.)  There will be similar issues to work out with it's use in IC engines, I expect.

I did find that the modifications for burning hydrogen instead of LP or Methane were manageable, though sadly, it could not be a single burner- dual fuel setup.







Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 16, 2018, 06:55:01 AM

 I found Brown's gas something to be be very careful around. It's shockingly explosive.


In the days when I was Younger, braver, sillier ( last week) and still thought life was fun, ( a lot further back)   I used to like to make bangs and explosions when friends had come round for a wood fired Pizza. I had made the Hohoho gas machine and fired the thing up and filled an ordinary Brown paper Lunchbag with the gas.
I sat it on an old plastic garbage bin and put a Cardboard box over the top to stop it blowing away in the breeze.  Made an electric detonator with just one strand of wire wrapped around a fire work wick. When I put it on a battery, Wire got hot and set off wick which ignited whaterver it was I didn't want to be near.

Told every one to stand back and set it off.
Holly mother of god! The thing went off and hit everyone with a shock wave.  The cardboard box turned to paper dust and the bin was blown to pieces.
Everyone just stood there in shocked silence with their ears ringing. Definitely a fo par that was beyond Funny. Of course the Mrs launched into me and the only thing I could say was sorry, I had no idea it would be like that.  I was hoping for a solid " Whummp!" but this really was a high speed detonation. I was a bit surprised we didn't loose windows and I was thinking of what the hell to tell the cops when they turned up as they surely would.  They didn't but that was a more good luck than anything else. Next day neighbours who were used to and amused by my explosive activities asked me what the hell I did? They felt their whole house shake.

I would have never thought I could have made such an explosion out of something in a brown paper bag.
Pretty much put an end to my explosion party tricks that was for sure.  That went from funny to not funny at all and scared even my equally normally hard to impress mates.

After that I always thought people that play with this stuff are either out their minds or don't fully comprehend what they are dealing with.
I saw people on YT using the Browns gas to fuel stoves. They are either incredibly ignorant or love life a whole lot less than even I do. With the fuel and the oxidiser in the same line/ tank, it's just asking for trouble IMHO.
I saw a YT vid where a guy had gone on previously about having a bubbler as a flash back arrestor.  Was playing with his little hohoho torch and the thing backfired into the Bubbler which was a hard plastic container with a screw on lid of about 2L Blew the thing apart and the guy caught some shrapnel in his arm.  How it didn't go all the way back into his gas bottle of the stuff and demolish him and his house I'll never know.
Not for me thanks!


Make me laugh when I hear about terrorists getting their hands on explosives.  If I wanted to Blow out a tree stump or something, I'd put about 10PSI of this stuff into a bit of metal pipe of about 5L capacity, put a spark plug in the side and uproot any damn tree there was!

 
Quote
If you need more gas production with reasonable efficiency it must be done by adding a lot more cathode and anode area.

I have a bunch of CPU heat sinks I was thinking would be good for the job and have lots of surface area.  had forgotten all about the KOH and ally.
I have bags of aluminum pellets from melting down cylinder heads with an oil burner and dropping the hot ally into a water bath. also have a 20Kg bag of Koh up there from my oily days for cleaning spills on concrete. have to see how much KOH an ally it took to make an amount of gas.

Using this method Bruce I take it the only gas produced is Hydrogen and there is no oxygen?


Quote
To use it in a conventional gas burner at 10" of water pressure, you must plug up roughly 2/3 of the holes and surround the propane burner element with stainless steel wool to act as a catalyst to lower the burn temperature. 

So make the burner area Smaller ?  Put steel wool over or around the outlet holes?  Why would you want a loer burn temp? Why not just lower the flame? Could you explain a  bit more about this please?

Quote
You don't want air mixed in so stock gas-air mixers must be sealed well with foil tape and silicone caulk or lighting the burner will be dangerously explosive.
Pure Hydrogen only into the burner?  One would normally change the jet in the mixer for natural gas or LPG but you are saying no mixing with air at all?


Quote
There will be similar issues to work out with it's use in IC engines, I expect.

Interesting. I thought half the reason people championed Hydrogen because all you get out is air and water. If there or oxides such as the ones they are trying to curb now with such effort, this will be a real drawback.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 16, 2018, 03:50:31 PM
The reason for reducing the gas burner holes is that hydrogen burns so much hotter than LP/methane that when adapting a gas cooking burner, you need less holes if operating at the same regulated pressure and with a standard lp/methane jet and metering valve regulating gas flow.  The stainless steel wool promotes mixing and as a catalytic surface helps reduce the flame temperatures and has the advantage of letting you see the flame.  Sufficient air mixing is at the stainless steel wool, premixing just creates an explosive mix so is avoided.  I found the information on the use of stainless steel wool somewhere on the web; I did not develop this myself, only experimented with it as an option for my off grid home.  I thought that variable gas rate generation under modest pressure to avoid pumping and storage was possible by raising/lowering the scrap aluminum into the lye bath or by controlling lye-water pumping rate, spraying the lye over the scrap aluminum. 

Various schemes have been proven for hydrogen generation via aluminum, including a water filled, aluminum wire feed against a rotating aluminum drum with electrical current applied to the wire. The drum speed and wire feed rate control the gas generation rate. One inventor used this successfully for an aluminum-hydrogen driven car.

Aluminum in lye water does NOT generate oxygen, which makes it an appealing hydrogen source.  Just make sure that you let it run to purge any air in your generation tank- the first gas you get will have enough air in it to be explosive.  An be prepared to deal with the rapidly heating lye water/aluminum solution...it will get very hot and will melt plastic unless you provide cooling. (You can imagine how I learned that lesson.)

The hydrogen car fantasy- that only water drips from the tailpipe, is only just that. The NOx problem is still there, when burning air.  If you burned brown's gas (with oxygen, not air) then it would be true.



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 16, 2018, 11:43:37 PM

Thanks Bruce, Very interesting.

Sounds like there are a good Number of ways to control the generation.  The one with the wire sounds like something that's an easy conversion for a MIG welder.

Once again it seems the promoters of an idea, ( Hydrogen Fueled Vehicles) are spin doctoring the advantages and BS'ing people over the advantages.
Nox is the evil of all  SI IC engines and it seems that Hydrogen does not over come it. Given the high flame temps of Hydrogen and thats what causes Nox in the first place, seems it could be a real obstacle with this fuel.

Never seemed a good/ efficent/ logical idea to me to feed exhaust gas back into an engine. I realise it's like " dead" air and why it's done, just I have always thought of engines in a performance application and that is you want all the clean air you can get in them.  Same with PCV. Only makes things dirty inside manifolds and ends up putting gunk back in the engine.  VW and Toyota have problems with this where it actually clogs the manifolds and they have to be removed and cleaned or replaced.

None the less it seems there is a strong push by some Manufacturers for hydrogen. I can see problems like how fueling stations store it and even how it's delivered but I guess they can be overcome. I still see a lot of resources put into making it though as the majority of it is commercially made now by cracking Fossil Fuels.  For all those people jumping up and down saying we have to get off fossil fuels, I think they yet again need to look beyond the hype and see what they are actually talking about.

Sound like home Hydrogen could be pretty easy though.  One could store it with inverted drums in water with some weight on the top to give the right pressure. Wonder how far 150L of the stuff would go for Cooking.  Don't know I'd put it in the house but an old Converted BBQ might be good for a conversation piece at a party!
Then again, People would ask me why I wasn't Burning Veg oil......
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 17, 2018, 12:03:45 AM
Don`t remember the guys name but he had a solar setup producing hydrogen which he safely stored in tanks filled with Lithium 6 deutoride. The tanks would release the hydrogen on demand when heated with an electric element.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 17, 2018, 12:37:04 PM

I'm sure that electrics are going to be a big thing in the future.  If nothing else, they are something new and hyped that manufacturers can sell and no doubly make premium profits on. Like any New product from colour TV's, DVD players, Digital cameras and mobile phones, they will have a Keeping up with the world sensation about them and be the talking point at Cocktail parties. You'll have to have one to be socially acceptable.... If you ever were which I never was! :0)

I wonder about futre developments with them.  Will in the next 20 years they have the power and capacity to pull your 3 ton trailer as is a big selling point now with towing capacity.  If they can pull it, will it be a decent distance or will you have to stop 3 times to get to the fishing hole normally an hour away?
Helped my neighbour this morning back his 30 Ft Caravan back into the shed.  Felt sorry for his poor Mrs gettng yelled at and knew he wouldn't yell at me and having reversed  big trailers and the like, I knew where his frustration was coming from.

I thought about them and so many others like my Aunt and Uncle whom I call the great gray Nomads.  Caravaning is a BIG industry here and huge part of the tourism scene. Neighbour was telling about how they did 3200Km in 3.5 weeks all around the state.
I was thinking about how electrics will influence this.  How long will it be before an electric can pull a 2.5-3 ton Van/ trailer? How long for they can pull it say 500Km which would be an expected distance? How long to recharge and How in hell are they going to get the power in these remote places?

I single petrol tanker, especially a B double can refuel a LOT of vehicles.  Even semi trailers carrying 1000L would be catered for 80 Times over.
A lot of these road houses and small towns have their own generators and aren't even on the grid or have a very limited capacity.
How in Hell is a road house on the Nullabor going to provide power for all the vehicles that come though?   They would have to have acres of solar panels or they would still be getting a semi full of diesel to run the gennys to recharge these vehicles.

In the mean time till there even is electrics with decent towing capacity and range, what's going to fill the gap? All these countries talking crap about banning IC sales in some stupid short time like 2025 might have to seriously revise their predictions.  What happens in the transition period?
Some places will have electric, some will have Diesel and some will have both but what a pain in the arse and an expense.

Might be OK for europe where you can drive through 3 countries in a day but in places like Oz, the US, Canada and others where it can easy take a day or more to get across one state, things won't be so easy.
 I also wonder who is going to foot the bill for the charging stations?  Lots of little servos Now with a few Pumps run by the family.  A manageable investment.
Getting high current lines and transformers put in or big diesel generators will be a very different thing.  Are the oil companies going to finance that like they do new servo's now? The gubbermints?  It's going to take a lot before these investments pay off and are worth while.

Also see a saturation point issue. Vehicles will have limited range so will need to charge sooner. As they hopefully improve, the range will get longer and these stations will become redundant. I would be very careful where I built or re-equuiped an existing property because you woudn't want the competition to kill your investment before it paid off.

Not saying these problems can't or won't be over come but I think they will be expensive and if people think their electric are going to be cheaper to run than an IC  probably in the next 30+ years, I think they are going to be in for a big Disappointment.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 17, 2018, 01:02:05 PM

I was reading today ( in between setting up yet more panels) about how green ev's are.  Certainly was interesting and again shoots a lot of the hype in the foot badly.

Between the emissions/ polloution/ expended fossil fuels and greater energy investment in production, Ev's are 20-to 30% Cleaner than Modern IC's at best.
A couple of articles I read accurately pointed out the spin doctoring of the green and EV proponents that modern vehicles are still blowing smoking clouds out the tail pipe like they did in the 30's or 50's.  They highlighted just how clean modern vehicles are and the emissions standards around the world that are generally so tight.  Even if the countries emissions standards aren't great, the vehicles usually are because they are sold in multiple countries where they are so are designed to conform .

A very valid point was the mining or the rare earth and exotic materials that go into EV's and where they are located. I was enlightened in thinking that there is a limited amount of lithium.  Seems there is millions of tond of the stuff, it's just all in inaccessible, remote areas that are untouched and unspoiled... unlike they will be once you strt mining lithium, cobaly and other things that go into EV's. You might be all clean and green driving Your ev in the city with no emissions but a whole huge area of natural habitat was wiped out and pollouted forever in making the thing in the first place.

There are only 16 Mines doing lithium atm and most of the deposits are in very remote and environmentally sensitive area's. Many of these are very dry places where water is scarce and mining or rare metals takes a LOT of water. The yeild of these materials is usualy less than 1%, some as low as .1% in areas still considered viable. Guess that's what makes them precious and exotic in the first place.  Even if the raw material is processed off site, there is still going to be a huge energy expenditure of taking the ore to the processing facility and more than likely, bringing 99% of it back.  Not really a viable option especially if you are digging the stuff out a steep mountain range. 

As most places still have the majority of their power derived from fossil fuels, the whole thing of no emissions is a farce. The emissions are really just being transfered from one place to another. while it is true that on a KW for Kw basis a coal fired power station still pips a modern IC engine, It's by 10-20%.

Seems to me we are going to a lot of trouble, expense and risk for very minimal margins that I have no doubt in practicality will be closer to zero than anything else by the time the normal figure fudging, corruption, shortcutting and every other human trait and deception kicks in.

I am sure however that it will earn billions for big biz and Gubbermints.

I do wonder though what the consensus will be in even 20 or 50 years time?
Will people be looking back and saying look how far we have come since the IC engine or will they be lamenting how the world got completely suckered and why it wasn't obvious the whole electric thing was a crock from the start?

One thing I have learned in life, NOTHING is ever what it's hyped up to be.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 17, 2018, 01:41:03 PM

And while I'm in a roll, I was checking out my favorite company of interest, Tesla.

Now I'll admit I am no fan at all but I am reasonably fair. I quick google of Tesla brought up so many negative stories, I started getting a bit sus myself.
I usually see lots of fag waving articles as the media tends to do at the mere mention of anything Green but the only thing I could find was pieces about a publicity stunt where a model x towed a Qantas 747 300M along a taxiway.

BIG EFFING DEAL!
My 25Yo 4wd could do that with ease! Select Low range 4wd, get a bit of weight over the wheels for traction and would pull a couple of locomotives tied to the back of the plane as well.  Still, they don't call them publicity stunts for nothing.
I thought it hilarious that one of the Quanta's officials noted in one report that they have been using electric tugs to to the planes in and out of hangers for over 10 years.  Ya.

Apart from that..... The news was all bad.
* They are going to shut down the model 3 line, again, for 6 days to fix the production line, again.
* The executives f the company are leaving in droves. so much so that even the fanbois on wall street who have been talking the company up are asking what the f is going on?
* Road safety mob in the US AND Switzerland are opening extensive investigations into crashes of Teslas.
* Tesla has been pulling some pretty unusual and risky accounting and Financing moves, one being effectively mortgaging the Giga factory itself.  Everything is pointing to them running out of money even faster than anyone predicted.

Anything on it's own is probably no big deal but with so many things happening all at once......

The crash in the US even to me seems a bit Meh.  Woman had auto pilot on and admitted she wasn't watching the road and ran up the back of a stationary Fire truck at 60 MPH and got out with a broken ankle.
 For once I have to agree with Elon's comment, that it was amazing she could  do that and ONLY have a broken ankle. I wouldn't expect anyone to get out of something like that in anything less than critical condition and it would still be surprising they got out of it at all.
 That to me seems one tough and safe car!

I think a problem is the very name of the technology, Autopilot.  They warn people to not take their hands off the wheel but I think the very name makes people think they can activate it and then have a snooze and wake up when they pull in the driveway of where they are going.
I think tesla would be a lot better calling it just " Driver assist"  Or " safety assist" or something that didn't make those short of braincells in the self preservation department think  it was like getting on a long distance train.

The exec thing is a worry as they are basically falling short of people with  experience in the critical areas that are the whole brands promoted USP's .
As was made out in one article, all these execs are going to competitors and people with electric car knowledge and experience are going to be VERY difficult for tesla to recruit given they are in fact the small player in the market.

Their whole premise of being the first to do affordable electrics with teh model 3 is crap anyway.  The Chevy Bolt/ Volt was years ahead and is the biggest selling EV in the US. China is gearing up to be a player and even if they take the lions share of the EV market in Asia, Tesla is going to be in trouble with that. they have invested a LOT into the asian market with showrooms, Superchargers etc and if they don't get a real fast return on that investment, that alone would  be a very serious matter.  Easy to dismiss the Chinese but thats what happened not too long ago with Solar panels and they are leading the world with them now well and truly. The chinese are already wiping the floor with Tesla in the numbers of Ev's they are selling and that's not counting the fact the Japs have the biggest selling EV in the world with the leaf.

Tesla is a very small player and while his predictions of 2500 and 5000 cars a week may sound impressive but one has to take into account the competitors churn out more vehicles than that in one model alone in some cases and there is no reason they can't do the same with an electric.
They have the car manufacturing process well and truly sorted. Musk is still making very rookie mistakes.

Certainly going to be interesting seeing how this unfolds and much to be learned on so many levels from them as well.

Their cash is being burned and drying up fast. They are behaving like a company in trouble, not one that Elon says is fine.  Their accounting practices and figures are based on calculations no one else does and therefore are fairly meaningless in the over all picture.
Must and the company have been pretty good at Pulling rabbits out of hats in the past but the more he keeps promising and failing to deliver the greater the miracle of them not going under is going to be.



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on May 17, 2018, 03:55:16 PM
Politicans will say anything to obtain votes at the next election . The electorate tends to have  a very short memory.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mike90045 on May 18, 2018, 05:56:39 AM
just wondering what the end-end efficiency of using refined aluminum wire and lye to generate hydrogen.
 Aluminum smelting is pretty power intensive, maybe it's useful as a "battery" but the cost is going to be pretty high.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 18, 2018, 03:30:37 PM
Both aluminum and other metals made by the Hall-Héroult process or electrolysis have been proposed as a means of energy storage. The efficiency is sub 50%...but storage is long term stable, and energy volumetric density is high. Alas, the aluminum smelting process generates a lot of "perfluorocarbons gases which are strong greenhouse gases with a long lifetime", and the hydrogen fluorides "tend to be very toxic to vegetation around the plants" (wikipedia).  So I doubt we'll see a shift to an aluminum based energy economy.

Synthetic propane (DME- dimethyl ether) is already being used around the world and may be produced via biomass and recently demonstrated biosynthesis via modified bacteria.  I like this possible solution for a renewable home/transport fuel as propane is a well proven fuel with a fairly clean exhaust.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: tiger on May 19, 2018, 03:40:10 AM
Some thing else to consider is the Vanadium flow batteries coming on line. Invented or made somewhat practical in OZ by a college student She developed a battery that stores the energy in the electrolyte and its capacity is determined by the amount of electrolyte one can store. They are practical so far only for stationary applications as large amounts of electrolyte are required. Several versions of electrolyte work including common sulfuric acid types. Many company's working on it, 1 in my neck of the woods, UNI Energy Technologys of Mulkilteo WA. USA.
There are several prototypes over 1 megawatts in operation.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 19, 2018, 07:40:26 AM

Inspired by all this hydrogen talk I went and had a play after I got back from looking at all the Listers and steam engines at the local engine show.
Met a fella there who was pretty youngish, 30-35 I'd guess that had a nice CS3 on display. This thing had the original radiator setup and the bloke was telling me it had everything when he bought it at online auction including the vale cover nut, factory fuel tank cap etc.  It was in its working clothes but he had it sitting on his beautifully restored lister Auto Truck.  Apparently he's a real lister fan and ha about a Dozen+ including a bunch of D's.

Stange Fella, sid he had 2 Cs's but wanted a roid! I told him, fine if you liked building model airplane kits as a kid.

I got a 3L Bottle and put a hose fitting in the top to attach some tube. I put about a litre worth of the aluminium flakes I have and maybe 150G of lye with about 2L of water. I put the bottle in a bucket of water to keep it cool and from melting the thin walled bottle.

Nothing much happened for a fair few minutes. I could see it reacting but no gas to speak of. The aluminium flakes were a bit oxidised from being in the weather about 12 months so maybe that had something to do with it?  Eventually I started to see some output and after a while it picked up to a steady output. I got another 3L bottle, filled it with water and inverted it and put it in the bucket with the " generator" bottle. But the hose up through the bottom and times it took about 5.5Min to fill the capture bottle.  I wondered how much gas could be generated before the lye needed to be renewed.  I was surprised to see the reaction was going stronger when the bottle was full than when it started.

It would seem this process would be one where the elements would be best put in a reaction vessel and then left to generate the gas which was captured over time.

It would seem to me that you would need to make a LOT of gas for the effort to be cost effective. Lye isn't cheap even if you have the ally  ( which is fairly cheap actually) but if you compared that to how much gas you get in a BBQ bottle and the cooking or running an engine/ whatever you can do with that, seems the ally/ Koh reaction will have to be pretty long lasting.

I was wondering if the process could either be sped up or made more efficient by adding electricity say from solar panels.
I have no idea but maybe the conductivity of the lye will remain in the solution when it's chemical reactance has reached saturation point.

Would be very interesting to get measured amounts of ally and KOH and see how much gas they do produce.
If the Hydrogen is burnt straight, that would add to the amount needed over a mixed gas.

To do anything meaningful with this one would need at least a couple of 200L drums inside one another and filled with water to make a floating lid type arrangement.  Drink bottles are't going to be very practical for anything other than seeing the process works.

Still a bit apprehensive about burning the stuff when it is made though.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 19, 2018, 05:33:39 PM
Nice experimental setup, Glort. 
I agree with your assessment that the start was slow due to oxides on the aluminum surface.  I used crumpled aluminum foil for my testing in a 5 gallon sealed lid pail as reactor vessal, which got a reaction going well in just a few minutes and had a good gas generation rate.  I used a bulkhead hose barb in the sealed lid and 1/2" outlet hose, and put it in a larger water filled trough for cooling.  I filled 30 gallon plastic trash bags with the gas.  Some became weather balloons.  I lit some off with a torch.

My original intention was for gas on demand, only enough to use directly for cooking. My limited testing showed that was possible with a modest sized generating vessel..perhaps 20 gallons for a gas oven.  The lye solution seemed to last pretty well but I didn't get very far on evaluation since burning lab grade hydrogen in air created NOx which was a project killer for me.

Aluminum plates can be used for electrolysis of water but you'd have to collect the oxygen separately...I think that would be the downside of trying to accelerate the process with an electrical current boost, as you were proposing...I think you will get oxygen in that case.

Thanks, Tiger for reminding us on the flow type battery progress.  The one commercial product for the US home power market went out of business last year...not enough market yet, and quite costly.  I didn't realize there were 1-4 GW grid connected systems like that in operation now around the world, with 1-4 day storage capability.







Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 20, 2018, 01:01:42 PM
Aluminum plates can be used for electrolysis of water but you'd have to collect the oxygen separately...I think that would be the downside of trying to accelerate the process with an electrical current boost, as you were proposing...I think you will get oxygen in that case.

Yes, that was obvious although completely escaped me!  :-[

I was looking some more on YT today for hydrogen videos.  Seems to be about 20X mor on hohoho gas.  On one vid there is a guy burning the stuff on a stove with a nice looking flame, on the next vid there is a guy setting off large balloons of the stuff going off like canons and he's merely lighting the end of a PVC hose and using the flashback like a wick to set them off.
How the people running stoves with the stuff don't end up with the same result, I don't know but suffice to say they either have much bigger hairy round ones than I do or a whole load less brain cells.

Once thing I came across right up your alley Bruce:

https://img.staticbg.com/thumb/view/oaupload/banggood/images/7F/A3/211ca719-dc1b-4691-958b-5a2a2fa28796.jpg (https://img.staticbg.com/thumb/view/oaupload/banggood/images/7F/A3/211ca719-dc1b-4691-958b-5a2a2fa28796.jpg)

(https://img.staticbg.com/thumb/view/oaupload/banggood/images/7F/A3/211ca719-dc1b-4691-958b-5a2a2fa28796.jpg)

Gas carburettor.  This would make it easy to run an engine on Hydrogen I imagine and at only $31 Au ( about .27 cents US :0) ) a very economical way too!
Supposedly for a GX200 Honda which is a 6.5 Hp.  I wonder if the 8Hp petrol's are the same carb mounting? I don't have a lot of petrol's but everyone I have is an 8hp for some reason. Pressure washer, Chipper, garden tiller, generator, water pump  and Vacumm.
If this carb fit, I'd be encouraged to try a bit more with the hydrogen and get one to fit one of the engines.  Genny would be the obvious choice if the things ran the engines stable.

I was also wondering seeing the output is the same, if they would be suitable for a CS conversion.  Capacity is vastly Different though so it would depend if enough gas could be sucked through the little carb.  Could always use 2 for a serious conversion.

Might try a large garbage bag on the output of the Aluminium  gas tomorrow and see what that does output wise. 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 20, 2018, 04:27:13 PM
Having done the full CS conversion to spark/propane for my neighbor, I can tell you with confidence that for a full conversion what you need is a gas carb like the Impco CA-110. It has a huge diaphram that can cope with the intermittent intake gulping of the CS.  Likewise, the regulator is critical and you must use the Garret/Impco regulator with the very large diaphram for the same reason. 

High speed engines are much cheaper to convert and the IMPCO carbs are much more common and thus cheaper for those. 

I know nothing about specific hydrogen engine conversion issues; I never go that far.

For hydrogen as a supplemental fuel there is a good chance hydrogen can be just jetted directly into the intake manifold of a diesel engine per CarlB's natural gas setup.  A diesel can run 85% NG, but only 20-25% LP.  I'll bet someone has tried adding hydrogen gas to a diesel.



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 23, 2018, 07:32:57 AM
Hey Glort, further to your rant about SA running back up generators, I came across this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2362762/The-dirty-secret-Britains-power-madness-Polluting-diesel-generators-built-secret-foreign-companies-kick-theres-wind-turbines--insane-true-eco-scandals.html

Makes the SA government look like amateurs at wasting money.

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on May 23, 2018, 08:08:27 AM
We were talking earlier about the amount of electrical energy it would take to turn a national fleet of internal combustion engined vehicles (or maybe most of that fleet) to zero-emission vehicles (I guess right now that's pedals or electricity)

Nationally, we have a formal goal of Zero Emissions by 2050.  Maybe that's realistic?  Maybe it's half realistic?  Maybe its govt bullshit? - you choose

But what interested me about it was the estimate of how much electrical energy we would need.  Best guess is "twice as much".  So that's one thing to think about it.  As a nation we could do that fairly easily if the political will & consensus was there to build more hydro and more windmills - those are a couple of big "ifs" though.

More interesting, at least IMHO, is contingency planning for events like a "dry year" (most of our generation is hydro, and if the lakes get too low . . .).  The 15% of our national generation that is non-renewable is gas/diesel/coal and they are our back-ups if the lakes are low

So along with issues around simple volume of demand; we have issues around security of supply

I'm an unashamed fan of EVs but I'm not naive or head-in-the-sand about the issues

I think we have interesting times ahead
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 23, 2018, 08:49:30 AM

What can I say Bob?
Lies, bullshit, corruption and endless greenwashing.

This green thing has become a total farce and a blight on the first world.
there's not much I can harp about I haven't already before.  Regardless if globull scamming is real or not, There are 2 insurmountable problems with it:

1. Too much money changing hands and profiteering to ever know if ANYTHING we are being told is right or someone has a vested interest in it.

2.  Probably because of point 1, the whole thing is in too much of a gut busting hurry.  There is this paranoia we have to be green right now and we are tearing up infrastructure and hurtling backwards with as much effort as we can muster. It's madness.

Sure, I'm all for clean, renewable energy, why wouldn't any one be BUT, FFS lets do it in an appropriate manner so we are not shooting ourselves in the foot with it. We can make cars fly right now too but doing that would be a huge mistake as well.  In time when the technology is there, Sure, cars can fly and all energy will be renewable but for the time being we need to pace ourselves so we don't end up worse off than where we started.... which is EXACTLY the way we are going with this now.

We did the exact same thing with biofuels about 10 years back. Yep, lets run all the vehicles on renewable fuel and plant crops.  they knew from the start it was a farce but still there was $$ in the charade so it was milked for all it was worth. Cost billions and squandered more resources and energy than Imaginable to go backwards.  A long way.

I think all this renewable thing is going to shoot itself in the foot.
Public support will evaporate fast once people are paying through the roof and the lights are still going out and they are unemployed because their work shut up shop because they couldn't trade profitably with the power bills.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 23, 2018, 09:00:50 AM
Interesting times and big challenges. I notice that the Australian government has ordered 20 Hyundai hydrogen fuel cell cars, for experimental purposes. There is presently only one hydrogen fuel pump in Australia so how they plan to fuel these vehicles is a mystery. I believe they have a range of around 800 km, so comparable with many gasoline vehicles. They can be refueled in about ten minutes which is bearable, plug in the fuel line, go get a coffee, pay and drive away.

I suspect that these vehicles will be very popular if people can generate hydrogen from solar and safely store it. I have reservations about home hydrogen storage in Australia due to the constant threat of bush fires. God help our firemen.

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 23, 2018, 09:10:54 AM
Hey Glort, no shortage of evidence to suggest we are all being taken down a blind alley at enormous expense to consumers and industry. The problem is that half the world has signed up to carbon emissions targets that are unrealistic. I believe that as oil starts to run out and prices start to rise dramatically, other energy solutions will become economically viable and common place.

As for flying cars, heaven forbid! Most of the idiots that learned to drive on an X Box can`t manage to control a vehicle in two dimensions please don`t introduce a third.

Bob 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 23, 2018, 09:50:21 AM

So along with issues around simple volume of demand; we have issues around security of supply

I think we have interesting times ahead

Generation with wind and solar is easy. Real easy.
Control and storage are the complete opposite.

I see more and more hair brained and inefficient ideas being put forward all the time.
It's more than clear we are not near ready to go renewable for at least 50 years but the distraction continues.

I think the whole issue is totally and utterly confused now.
On another forum there is a prized zealot of the green movement. He is greenwashed through and through but then argues against the idea of all new homes where applicable having to have PV on the roof. He reckons the grid isn't set up for it and too much power going back in is no good. He argues that the power companies will have to increase prices and those without solar are subsidising the owne with it and reckons people with solar systems should pay A$350 a year more as their share of supporting the grid.....
Like WTF?  Local generation will upset the grid but solar energy from 500KM away is fine?

These nutters can't make up their minds. He's not the only one that goes along with this either. Clearly he has some ulterior motive and vested interest as he shows his hand by insisting the little guy should pay more but the corporations making Millions should do nothing to affect their bottom line.

Another one on the same forum can't put up a usually longer than my posts ( and that's saying something!) without harping on about Co2 5 times.
When I asked him by what Percentage the earths co2 levels had increased in the last 100 years, I had to corner him to get a simple answer that was in fractions of 1 percent.   ::)

These fanatical green zealots unfortunately not only have their head in the sand, they have it firmly wedged up their arses as well.
They are just so desperate for a cause to champion, I am sure they have serious issues and deep problems in their lives. 
 I do too but at least I recognise I'm a screw loose! :0)

I know Bruce here is concerned about the environment and associated matters but I have NEVER seen him once over exaggerate or blow things out of proportion to make a point like is the trademark of so many of the  green fanatics.  He is realistic, truthful, honest and above all, believes in his position.
 People like him are the ones that need to be looking after this stuff. People who will actually do what's right, not what's the most profitable for them with corrupt backhanders and will make them and their friends even more money.

I see the generation issue of supplying the EV market downplayed all the time with figures saying they will only be another 5-10% of the total energy demand and other such BS.  The numbers and logic don't add up to that and the article Bob linked to above where gubbermints lie and twist figures is proof of the spin doctoring that goes on with this.

There are just SO many aspects of the EV idea on a mass scale that don't add up and would be massive hurdles to over come. Again, look at what Bob points to above.  Does anyone think the UK is going to have that fixed in the same time frame that they are saying Ev's are going to become more popular?  Given the problems they are having and the reasons behind it, the problem is going to get worse not better as they push for more RE without doing it as the technology allow it to be done stably.

 Does not add up and you don't need figures to see it, just logic.  Knock over coal power stations to put in diesel generators.  Brilliant!
and then they insult your intelligence again by saying diesel generators are a little cleaner than coal.  Can I put everything I own on that bet?  I'd love to see the emissions on a Kwh produced in a coal power station and one produced by an industrial diesel Genny. Who do these people think they are kidding?

Now I'm not to bright and often slow on the uptake, but wasn't a MAJOR goal of all this renewable energy thing to get away from fossil fuels in all forms, not just swap one fossil fuel for another said to be even more likely to run out in a shorter time frame?

Least I can see how we are going to burn through diesel faster than coal with this sort of mindset.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 23, 2018, 11:35:45 AM
Hey Glort, no shortage of evidence to suggest we are all being taken down a blind alley at enormous expense to consumers and industry. The problem is that half the world has signed up to carbon emissions targets that are unrealistic.

Honestly Bob, the more I look into things and look at the WHOLE picture, the more the whole thing contradicts itself.  There are a lot of tangents and aspects to the renewable/ Ev/ etc thing and despite what might be claimed, they are just NOT Pulling together as a team effort to achieve the objective.
It's all about individual interests and as much as I go on about it, it's offensively apparent it is all PROFT driven and real concern for the environment is non existent in big business and Gubbermints.
That's bad, Really bad.

I'll put my hand up and say I don't believe in all the globull warming idea but that's not even relevant now.  The whole thing is so corrupted and maligned, I hope to hell I'm right and it is just the patterns of the world in it's natural process because if Globull warming is real, we're fked already.
Those in a position to be doing something about it are making policy's based on everything EXCEPT the best way forward.  There are loads of ways to make real, tangible, measurable and no/low cost improvements that could be very easily implemented but they are forsaken for things that generate revenue and profit when literally 99% of the time they do NOTHING for the environmental objective at all.

Your link to the Generator thing is prime example and in what I have seen beyond media hype, the BS and lies are the norm well and truly.
The more I spend my idle time educating myself in it all, the bigger the gaps and contradictions become apparent.
Emissions figures are crap to pacify the sheeple and for the pollies to distract us what a pizz poor job they are doing.  Again, it's all about costing more money but never doing anything low/ no cost.

The approach to the emissions thing the world is taking is akin to putting in a bigger air conditioner to keep your house cool but not closing the front and back doors first.  That's pretty much the mindset with all the climate/ renewable strategies.


Quote
I believe that as oil starts to run out and prices start to rise dramatically, other energy solutions will become economically viable and common place.

I believe that while ever oil is available at a price people will pay, there will never be a mainstream replacement.
Firstly, the problems and cost of an alternative mainstream fuel are almost insurmountable. Take your Pick, Hydrogen, electric, unicorn farts, whatever.
Oil is in place with the infrastructure and the vested interests are very comfortable with the status quo.
Until oil becomes less profitable than an alternative, that's what we will have.

I also believe they have a real good idea how much oil there is. Ever notice the only time you hear about oil running out is when there is a price hike?  All the rest of the time there is not a problem. I think the time till we run out is a long way off yet. It is however in the interests of big biz to have people believe it is going to run out sooner rather than later. Always follow the money! :0)

I also believe that when oil does become too expensive and revenues start to drop, There will be some " Miracle  new Discovery Fuel " that will have been something  someone came up with 100 years ago but was hidden away because vested interests for a whole load of reasons, namely money and power, didn't want known.
In any case, as you say, what we can already do today but don't because oil is cheaper will come into play.


Quote
As for flying cars, heaven forbid! Most of the idiots that learned to drive on an X Box can`t manage to control a vehicle in two dimensions please don`t introduce a third.

Yeah, I reckon that's 50-100 years away yet.  In reality we can't even get a car to drive down the road without crashing at this point in time.
I think flying cars are talked about by people that have never piloted a small and basic light aircraft  and have any idea of what goes into flying.
Imagine the devastation of someone hooning round in the air and crashing into a building or other aircraft. The only way is down and god help anyone underneath.

It's a nice idea but so is teleportation so you don't even need a vehicle and fuel for it at all! You could move goods and be anywhere in the world in seconds.  It's probably a better idea than the congestion and problem vehicles of any type have and at this point in time, probably no harder to achieve in mass practicality and technology than flying cars.           :0)                                                     
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 23, 2018, 04:12:16 PM
Carbon taxes are/were an attempt to harness the amazing greed-power of capitalism towards generating solutions to the mess we're handing our great grand children.  Alas, legislation crafted by lawyers often creates windfalls for opportunists which don't solve anything.   

After more reading I think that the mass production of lots of modular 100MW LFTR (liquid fluoride thorium) fission reactors would buy us the 1000 years we need and let us us our stockpiles of thorium waste from rare earth mining while generating very little radioactive waste. The air cooled version would be a huge help for those regions like the SW US which are drying up.  It's about the only thing I've seen that is a proven design, that could actually provide the HUGE amount of cheap power we need to replace fossil fuels.  The data from Germany convinced me; their massive PV program didn't even offset their puny population growth; their total fossil fuel use has increased while electricity costs have doubled.

The only proven renewable (besides hydro) that is well suited to self storage of energy is the solar- molten salt system. Typically that's only storage of a day or two .  I doubt it could compete economically with a Thorium plant, but they probably would make sense for the desert SW US where air conditioning loads dominate and diminish on the rare cloudy days.

We have a fundamental problem in that our elected decision makers are mostly lawyers and don't have the technical background to make good decisions in this highly technical area. For technical decisions they are on the left hand side of the Dunning-Kruger curve; they know nearly nothing but think they do.  So they revert to decisions based on which corporations contribute the most to their campaign and what their polling experts think will get them re-elected.

Interesting times ahead; on that we can all agree.



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: AdeV on May 23, 2018, 09:02:07 PM
Since we're talking about electric vehicles... (I assume?), I rather like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGjOY4JBmy4

Hmm. I've got an old (35 years old) Ford Granada estate (station wagon, for you Yankees :D, not sure about you Aussies, erm, covered Ute maybe?) , like this, only mine is in Jewish Racing Gold:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8236/29097609492_8f32c32496_b.jpg)

(a note on scale: This is about half the size of an equivalent age US "full size" car  :laugh:)

I reckon I could get a stack of batteries in that, a couple of 120bhp motors would give it 75% more power than the asthmatic 2.8 litre V6 it has now (I was going to stick a 400bhp V8 in it... but actually I kind of like the retro-electric idea).
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 23, 2018, 11:50:01 PM

I like AWD so I'd be looking to put a motor in every corner.
Nothing electric is remotely cheap as yet so like any new EV, they are impossible to justify on cost.

That said, something with a decent motor in each corner would be one hell of a sling shot though. Getting the 450Km range I would need would be another thing.... and significant cost.  Then of course there is the thing, When I'm 400 Km from home, where am I going to charge the thing?

"Excuse me, can I borrow a power point for 6 Hours and add about a weeks worth of cost to your power bill? "
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 24, 2018, 01:25:10 AM
All you need is a Chevy Volt, Glort.  That's right, the Volt.  You get the 40 mile (64 KM) 100% EV range you really need, and the unlimited petrol range after that.  Charge the battery on your home PV most of the time and use nothing but battery for 90% of your driving. Because of your great work on your bargain PV system, you'll likely be one of the few who really does save money via EV.





Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on May 24, 2018, 02:12:02 AM
here in Australasia this is an option

https://www.mmnz.co.nz/vehicles/outlander-phev/

My neighbour commutes in one of these every day.  It's a company car.  Her round-trip is 46 Ks.  the Mitsubishi claims 54Ks range and that must be close as she never runs out of charge.  Her commute is 2Ks up and down a winding gravel farm track, 10Ks of country road (3rd gear in my Camry) and the rest highway with a couple of Ks of town at the end

She plugs it in every day at work and never puts any petrol in it - I figure the gas has probably gone stale by now

She has been driving it for maybe three or four years with zero issues.  One of them as a secondhand car might be an OK deal if you had a commute of that size

There are about 45 of them on TradeMe right now $26-35K depending on age/Ks etc
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 24, 2018, 08:22:16 AM

I had a look on fleabay for Hybrids. Not many I could find here at all. Did find a wrecked tesla not far away though.

60 Km range wouldn't do me a lot of good. Be ok for running round town which I do about every 10 days but that costs next to nothing anyway. It's 60Km to get anywhere from here so you'd save on half a trip.  Maybe.
Any of our cars will get over 10 Km/l down teh motorway so 6L @ 1.30 = $7.80.  The toll on the motorway is more than that.

No idea what power consumption would be but there is a cost.  Now in winter I'm just breaking even with my solar. Any more load and I'll be paying.
In any case, $8 per trip is going to be insignificant to repay for ME. 
I rather stick to  my veg oil where I can drive all over the country for free and never have to worry about recharging or prolonged stops or limited range.

And NO there is no  " You have to factor in your time for processing BS" because it's a hobby I do in my spare time and does not take me away from paid work, ever.  Even if it did, the returns I get for the time I spend on it are far greater than the hourly rate my limited and unspecialised skills would earn me in a paid job.  Last time I compared it, I'd have to be a specialist, not even a GP to come close.

I have seen on YT some of the DIY electric guys towing trailers with extra  batteries to extend their range on trips.  Maybe in the future there will be an opportunity for a business to hire these out or have the option of a little Kubota  Diesel Driving a 20 KW head to feed the vehicle as it goes or charge up in a more timely manner when stopped when there is no charger or they are all taken like in holiday time.

I love reading the comments about solar panels on the roof of Ev's. If they were that efficient, the car and the panels, our problems with transport would be over.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on May 24, 2018, 08:39:44 AM
IMHO the tech curve is both climbing & steepening

Remember this?

https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2016/07/flying-around-the-world-in-a-solar-powered-plane/493085/

Sure, slow, expensive and fragile, but powered just by the sunlight on its wings

At the other end of the scale - this fellow just shaved 20 secs off it's own lap record to lap the Nurburgring in 6 and a half minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcepG9Twa_8

Faster than any Porsche, Lamborghini, mad Nissan . . .

I suspect we're just beginning to see the edge of future energy achievements.  Maybe not in my lifetime, but . . .

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 24, 2018, 04:50:21 PM
Free used veggie oil is unbeatable in cost and renewable green star points.   :D
 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: AdeV on May 24, 2018, 08:31:37 PM
Hey Glort, have you heard of "black diesel"? 3/4 used motor oil, 1/4 regular unleaded petrol (gas) if I recall correctly...

Won't get you any green points, but it might make your local mechanics very happy bunnies, if they don't have to pay to dispose of their waste oil any more...
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 25, 2018, 12:17:39 AM

Unlike my good mate Ed, I'm what I consider blessed in that I don't have to muck round with that foul black Yecch.  I am most fortunate enough to be able to get enough veg to run a power station if I wanted.

Obviously I am biased but I also have 15+ years experience with veg so am comfortable with it and understand it.
I personally find Veg SO much better than WMO.  I have tried that and use it to get rid of the stuff when people kindly turn up with it thinking they are doing me a favour ( or not in the case of my brother in law who just wants to get rid of it) but mainly these days I use it for burner fuel so I don't have to process it.

The WMO Stinks both when handling  it and it's burnt in the engine, It stains everything it touches, looks terrible and is SO much harder to clean up than veg oil.  Veg I wasn't even worried about being careful with.  I'm too much of a Klutz for it to matter anyway. The more careful I tried to be, the bigger mess I made.
I didn't much care, I used to process whatever oil I wanted-400-1000L and then when I was finished, I put all my toys away and cleaned the area of the concrete driveway I used to play on with some KOH.  The mrs only complaint was that when I finished cleaning up, that spot on the driveway which now looked like new concrete made all the rest look Dirty. I was asked to please move to a new spopt next time so as to try and make it all look cleaner instead of one bit laughing at the rest.

WMO just stains everything.  I can pour veg down the driveway and clean it no problem. 100Ml of WMO and it leaves a black stain you can't get out with 3 concentrated applications of KOH straight on it.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great fuel, just not one suitable for an inherently messy and untidy mongrel like me.

My senses aren't what they used to be anymore but I still have no trouble telling when the cat box needs emptying .
 I must be so used to it, I can't smell the fish and chips or the Donuts cooking from a veg fueled engine any more.  I might catch a whiff on startup when it's strongest but after that, Just don't register now.  When I was playing with the roid a few months back I had some old bio in it and my wife and daughter were Commenting on that and the subsequent oil I put in it they could smell from the house but just didn't register with me at all.
Sure smelt the diesel I put in it later though!

Not that I would EVER do it myself... ::) But I have ... heard... the black diesel you describe is great for fence posts to stop white ants  getting to them as well as rotting. Had to laugh when I was at my Dads the other week. Every fence post on the length fence lines is a nice designer black colour from top to ground. He cuts the oil with old stale petrol he gets and throws in Tranny, brake, diff and gearbox oil and Power steering fluid as well.
The black posts looks really good actually!

I'll stick to keeping the restaurateur's happy.
Been raiding more than one Veg drum and had someone come running up to me asking if I would take their oil as well because the collector hadn't been and they were drowning in the stuff. 

They thought I was doing them a favour, I thought at the time I won the lottery.   :laugh:

I don't know what it is Bruce but every Veg oil vid I have seen has oil that is just so much better than what you get here. Maybe it's cheaper there or although Americans quaff down fried food they have higher standards with it. The oil I see is always this beautiful light colour and very thin like it was used once and changed.  the oil I have got over the years just isn't like that. Tends to be far more used, darker and thicker.

Some of the best I was getting was Off the cruise ships when they stocked up in port.  They had their oil in 1000L Cubies which was a god send. Garbage company that had the contract for the waste from the ships was glad to give it to me and it was so convenient. They just forked the IBC into the back of my trailer and I was on my way.  I have supplied a lot of my oil mates over the years but they weren't expecting me to slide an IBC out the back of the trailer with this light liquid gold.

The normal stuff everyone tends to get here is pretty dark although asian places in general have the best oil.  I remember this one place I used to collect from was this dingy filthy looking place that was a hole in the wall at an industrial complex.  I think they must have changed their oil daily. It was like it was poured from the drum it was delivered in to the waste oil drum.  Man that stuff was good!

When I had Helga and Heidi, My beloved Yellow 300D's, we used to go for a lot of drives down the coast to the beach and get take away.  First thing my my kids at 11 and 12 years old would do when we went to a new place is run round the back to look for the oil drum and check it out. If it was decent the place got the nod, If it were sump oil they weren't eating there and would rather go hungry.

Things you look back on and think that probably no other kids in the whole world did that when they went to eat somewhere.
God I miss those days so bad.

Need to go find some local sources now I have moved and the supplies I brought with me are drying up. Loads of restaurants round here and of course as one as demented as me does, already made mental notes of the locations of the oil drums.
I don't really have to go to the bathroom everytime I go to a place to eat but I know the facilities are usual y out the back near where the drum of liquid gold is kept too.

 :laugh:

(http://dare2bedifferent.com.au/Helga2w.jpg)
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 25, 2018, 02:44:18 AM
Helga's yellow looks great in that photo! My 1985 300D is still looking pretty good inside and out, and still has the original paint. It's a bit faded but beige fades towards white gracefully.



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on May 29, 2018, 11:56:09 PM
All you need is a Chevy Volt, Glort.  That's right, the Volt.  You get the 40 mile (64 KM) 100% EV range you really need, and the unlimited petrol range after that.  Charge the battery on your home PV most of the time and use nothing but battery for 90% of your driving. Because of your great work on your bargain PV system, you'll likely be one of the few who really does save money via EV.

This topic of:   electric cars/the future/ adequate power generation/advancing tech  - we have talked about it lots and there are many different viewpoints . . .

But it continues to interest me

There was a motoring industry chap on the radio this morning talking about the age of our fleet; and his words prompted me to go look at some numbers:

In our small country of NZ we register about 8500 new cars every month on average

If every one of those was an electric car it would still take 25 years to replace the whole national fleet of passenger cars

Our electricity use has been more-or-less static (sometimes declining slightly) over the last decade and we have surplus capacity (a lot of the times out windmills are braked and "turned off" as the hydro lakes are full)

I can't help thinking that with advancing tech and some smart decisions, a big electric fleet over the next, say, thirty years is probably do-able

just my $0.02
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 30, 2018, 12:20:19 AM
Hi Mike, I think that in any country with a surplus of renewable energy electric vehicles make perfect sense. Most people only us their personal transport to commute short distances to work, schools, shops & etc. so range is not a huge factor. Cost however is a big deal, why would anyone in their right mind pay a lot more money for a vehicle that won`t do what its predecessor did and will probably need a new battery pack in five years time?

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on May 30, 2018, 12:44:29 AM
Good solid points, Bob, and I think probably the answers are multi-faceted?

Firstly, I would think a forward-thinking and enlightened government (and, no, I don't know where we're going to find one of those either) would have been buying EVs exclusively for its own fleet and obliging Local Bodies to do the same - starting about five years ago - we would already be enjoying he benefits of the three-year-rollover of vehicles into the national second-hand fleet/pool if that were the case.  I think we are considering these moves now-ish . . . so in another few years . . .

Batteries?  I think the conventional wisdom is about 12 years life (with substantially reduced range for the last couple of these)  BUT we are already seeing market forces at work as aftermarket players begin to supply battery packs for the Nissan Leaf - and I guess others will follow.  Costs might be in the order of $4K landed as opposed to estimates of $7-12K as OE parts

On that basis, with a "fuel" cost around $0.02 a kilometre and "maintenance" around $0.01 a kilometre (depending on who you believe) buying a, say, $20K car as a five or ten-year proposition makes a lot of sense

IMHO it will be interesting to watch as market forces do unexpected things in this area, and as petrol costs and taxes change over time, and as tech advances change the market too

Cheers
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 30, 2018, 12:54:19 AM
I think that finding an enlightened forward thinking government is about as likely as finding fairies at the bottom of the garden.
Much more likely that market forces and advertising will dictate the direction we go in.
Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 30, 2018, 12:57:34 AM

I can't help thinking that with advancing tech and some smart decisions, a big electric fleet over the next, say, thirty years is probably do-able


I agree.

But that's not what everyone is pushing for. The green zealots and Gubbermints are trying to ram it down out throats that everything will be electric in 10 years.
It's not going to happen!
As I have repeatedly whinged, a big problem I have with the green movement is they want it all to happen NOW. they are not prepared to let the technology catch up, they want to blow up coal fired power stations because they are environmentally unfriendly instead of gradually easing into new generation as time, money and tech allows.

I think the EV thing is also being pushed hard by the industry as a cash cow.  They will be able to sell a whole load of new vehicles to replace perfectly good one sooner than they would have before. There is also going to be revenue made with charging, battery packs etc.

As far as having excess power, I think every 1st world country could say that. By definition if you didn't have excess you'd have a shortage because you can never have just the right amount.  In places that truly DO have an excess capability, the question is " How Much" ?

By my calcs an EV would at least DOUBLE an average homes consumption PER CAR.  Average house in US, AU and Canada has 3 cars.
Homes are not the only user of power  and n the scheme of things they are small users but combined, They suck a LOT of Juice.
Add to this the push that is taking place in parallel with electric buses and commercial vehicles in Trucks etc and we are not talking about the small BS amount of power I have seen published many times. 

I have an excess of solar power too 6 months of the year but right now on winters doorstep running heating. higher consumption on hot water due to incoming temp Diff and other things, I'm going slightly backwards.
That said, given even 20 years to ramp up for the extra loads EV's will impose is a different and doable thing. Very different to the " All cars sold will be Electric in 10 years " crap we are fed all the damn time.

Probably not for me. I'm trying to buy a new ( to me) Diesel 4WD I can continue running on Veg oil. That's going to be more practical for me for the next 15 years at least.

For a place like NZ, ramping up power would be easy, just put in some more turbines to run off Geothermal. You are blessed with a resource like that but few other places are. Yeah, there is solar but that's only good while the sun shines and Turbines have a LOT of issues, known and a lot more that are hidden and swept under the carpet!


8500 cars a month???
How?

Last time in was in NZ, like the time before, there was no bugger there!
You got the population ( or a little less) of Sydney in the whole 2 Island Country!!  You got more Boats in Auckland than you have people and lets not even talk about the sheep that outnumber the residents about 3:1.

Maybe that's it? ....... The sheep have learned to drive.
They couldn't be any worse than a good number of pelicans we have here behind the wheel!


Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 30, 2018, 01:34:41 AM

Cost however is a big deal, why would anyone in their right mind pay a lot more money for a vehicle that won`t do what its predecessor did and will probably need a new battery pack in five years time?


Where I ( and you) are, which is not a small segment of the vehicle market either, things are very different to city use.
When an EV can tow a horse flat a decent range or even a decent trailer and you can drive for a day making only the same length stops you would now, then EV's will have become on par with IC's.  That isn't going to happen anytime soon though.

As for cost, that's going to take a while too.  There is the hype now of musks $35K ( us) model 3 that's never likely to be built.  Buy one ATM and you are going to be a lot closer to $50K, IF you can get one, than 35K. They are talking about more expensive models but the only mention of the base $35K edition is they have to build the others first and fill those orders.  Ya!
Rate they are going it's pretty clear it's never going to happen and the whole affordable , 35K thing is just another load of garbage from the worlds richest and most prolific bullshit artist. 

When the Chinese and the Koreans get stuck into the market in another 2 years, THEN we might see a comparably priced EV but by that time, I have fair confidence Tesla in it's current form and as least as an auto maker will be gone. Any more crashes or missed production promises and they will be lucky to see this Christmas.


I have VERY deep reservations about the life of the battery packs.  The technologies they are using has nothing like the battery life in any other application it's used in so why would it last longer in a much more demanding environment?
batteries in my laptop that hardly ever get Cycled are gone in 5 years or less and they are the same as they are using in a lot of vehicles and power walls.
Would would cycling them everyday make them last longer?  No where in battery technology would you see that being a proposed or accepted theroy.

If you look at the flat Lipo packs of different chemistry's, they are the same.... only worse.
High energy density, light weight, High discharge Currents and fast charging but long life.... Nope. Maybe in relative terms like they lasted 3 years and now they last 4 but 10 years?  I don't think so  Tim!


Quote
On that basis, with a "fuel" cost around $0.02 a kilometre and "maintenance" around $0.01 a kilometre (depending on who you believe) buying a, say, $20K car as a five or ten-year proposition makes a lot of sense

I don't know where you get those figures from but both Bruce and I have demonstrated that running an EV is MORE expensive than running an IC vehicle atm.  I can't see power going down to anywhere near the prices that would make those figures remotely possible anyway.

The maintence thing is constantly maligned as well.  Have a look on the net at what owners of ev's ARE paying for maintenance.  Teslas yearly service is about $3k+ from memory.  If I read one moronic load of crap about " No oil changes" like it's something you do once a week, I'm going to scream.
There is a lot more to maintaining a vehicle, especially an EV, that just oil changes.... which BTW many DO  require in the running gear.  Anything mechanical needs some lubrication.

Quote
Much more likely that market forces and advertising will dictate the direction we go in.

Let me fix that for you Bob.....

Much more likely that Gubbermint / big biz vested interests and false advertising will dictate the direction we go in.


Just corrected that for you for  accuracy :0)
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on May 30, 2018, 06:19:47 PM
Systems people!  Whenever you modify one part of a system don't expect the other segments to remain the same.  The propaganda I see suggests that more and more vehicles just aren't going to have ICE power.  As selection opportunities evolve so will choices.

It's fun to stand on the sidelines and watch all the mistakes the coaches are making but I'm more interested in your resolutions to solve the problems.  Few will suggest throwing the coaches out of the game.  Governments have been around quite a while.

Best wishes,
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 30, 2018, 11:28:55 PM
but I'm more interested in your resolutions to solve the problems. 

You want to know what I will do to overcome the problems of electric Vehicles?

NOTHING!

What can I do? I'm not a decision maker on Gubbermint policy and I have zero influence on what it will be.  Don't even get me started on what I'd do If I did have a say in anything.

The one thing I WOULDN"T do would be implement idiotic policy's to appease the green movement like blowing up coal fired power stations as we have done, numerous times, to fit an agenda without first having ensured there is sufficient tested and reliable capacity from green sources to take up the slack.
This crap of taking out a coal fired station to replace it with diesel generators would have someone locked up and the key thrown away.... and that would only be if I couldn't bring back hanging.

When electrics can do what the vehicles I have now do and fill my needs in the same way, Sure, I'll get one if they are affordable.
I'll even build a new shed up the back with a skillion roof facing north and cover it in panels to charge the thing.

Until such time as they become truly practical and economical, I see Veg oil in my future for a long time to come yet.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 30, 2018, 11:57:21 PM
Hey Glort, I stand corrected. Perhaps I have slightly too much faith in government and business, I will try to be more sceptical in future.
Here is an interesting take on how to roll out electric vehicles https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/zipcar-plans-roll-electric-fleet-144740082.html

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on May 31, 2018, 12:39:41 AM
Very interesting link, Bob, thanks. I like the concept.



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on May 31, 2018, 12:49:48 AM
I can see how having little cars for rent in a congested city would work.  I'm sure that for a lot of people in the middle of citys who don't have to travel far or only go out of town very occasionally, electrics are perfect.

The thing most media seem to over look is while most houses have multiple cars, they are person not job specific.
There are not a lot of people that can afford to buy, register and insure a car for just going to work in and another for going away or weekend driving in the overall ownership of vehicles. Those that can here often have the toys on limited use club plates which means thy can only be driven for sanctioned events.

This makes owning vehicles, electrics, that won't do the majority of tasks difficult for many, especially when it would not be 2 cheaper used vehicles but an expensive new one.
The problem is of course that even IF you did save money on " fuel" with an electric, the cost of having it, repayments, rego, insurance servicing etc would not be less than the savings one could make. In other words, If you want cheap transport, stick to one Vehicle.  Your IC is still going to be cheaper to fuel for running around than having another car with all the associated costs for a very long time to come yet.... and of course the true reality is they cost MORE for the same miles at this point.

I'm not sure that will change anytime in the foreseeable future.
Power and fuel prices tend to be pretty well linked.  Certainly the way things are going with power being supplied by diesel generators they will be very linked!  I'll believe they rubbish about power prices getting cheaper when I see it. It does not add up.  Ploughing tens of Millions into renewable s does not make anything cheaper, it's an investment that has to be recouped and they are not going to cut their margins for some cause or feelgood. The power industry is worse than the fuel industry when it comes to gouging people.  Going from one to the other is like going to the hangman because you don't like the look of the guy running the Guillotine.

I really think in a lot of ways people are setting themselves up for a fall with this electric thing.  They are getting caught up in the hype without looking at the big picture.
What exactly are the REAL benifits of going electric?
They aren't nearly as environmental as hyped up, not by a long shot.  They won't mean an easing of congestion or it will be easier to find a parking space, They will unlikely be cheaper to run and they will have a lot of drawbacks.

For the most part to me, the EV hype is nothing more than a distraction and a marketing ploy by the manufacturers.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 31, 2018, 09:42:20 AM
Hey Glort, for once I disagree with you. I think that for city dwellers EVs are the way forward, your average commuter/house wife does not need a vehicle that will be able to drive from Melbourne to Darwin, nor do city dwellers need to be breathing in the toxic emissions from IC engines. They need a simple small vehicle that will get them to work and back and to the supermarket. Perhaps vehicle hire companies can fill the void by hiring out longer range IC vehicles to people planning a long trip.
I still have very severe reservations about the ability of the grid system to power the city EVs, however the idea that generating capacity could be maintained after midnight to charge EVs might have some merit. Cycling generators up and down to meet demand is very inefficient, so having a heavy night time load may make economic sense.
Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on May 31, 2018, 06:59:48 PM
The temporary car rental (is that redundant?) system is intriguing.  I'm thinking it'll be a lot easier for the less ownership minded folks in our economies than me.  I've watched a couple of articles about the rejection - vandalism the scooter ride share companies are facing in San Francisco.  Cars should be different as they aren't as scary to the sidewalk patrons. 

The two electric cars I driven were a nice ride.  The smaller ones that interest me the most will fully charge over night.  What a nice way to start out the morning.  Full tank of fuel and no toxic waste transfer stations to deal with or should I write gas stations. ;)



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles. Build cost?
Post by: buickanddeere on May 31, 2018, 09:06:23 PM
Has anyone found access to what it costs GM to build a Bolt vs a Sonic ? Or a Volt vs a Cruze ? Then there is “cost “. Wages for the day, materials and amortized wear on the rolling . Or all in considering engineering, legal, advertising , pensions and the actual build price .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on May 31, 2018, 09:09:19 PM
Overnight charging with L1 and L2 chargers should be reasonably well tolerated by the utility grid . Daytime charging while commuters are at work , not a good idea .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on June 01, 2018, 12:07:26 AM
I can see how having little cars for rent in a congested city would work.  I'm sure that for a lot of people in the middle of citys who don't have to travel far or only go out of town very occasionally, electrics are perfect.

Quote
I can see how having little cars for rent in a congested city would work.  I'm sure that for a lot of people in the middle of citys who don't have to travel far or only go out of town very occasionally, electrics are perfect.

I don't think you disagree with me as much as it seems Bob.  I think electrics would be in their element in the city.... even if it didn't come out that way because I put it badly.
My comments on multiple cars were based thinking about people more in the burbs whom I perceive have different needs to those in the inner city.

For those with a free standing house and lawn and kids, I think they need something with more versatility. Something they can load up and go and visit friends and rellies  further out, maybe tow a trailer  and take on holidays once/ twice a year.
It could be certainly argued one could Rent for those times except for 2 things..... Ever tried renting a vehicle at Christmas ??.. and you would could you'd be back to an IC.... that they are supposedly going to do away with and ban to replace with  electrics.

As for the power thing I see that being a HUGE challenge but it does depend on the time frame.  If you are talking converting the fleet in 10 years, yeah, good luck with that. No way in hell they will get the grid up to that in the time frame.  20-30 years... I think that's the sort of time it takes to make things happen.

There is one popular " Forecast" I DON"T see happening and that is the overnight off peak/ cheap power. I don't think the idea stands up to practice.
Right now they are talking about limiting solar on homes because there is too much power going back to the grid.  I can see it myself when the daytime voltage levels rise to a point that makes pumping my own power back often difficult.

They are also putting in solar farms everywhere and the power co's scross the world seem to be in a race for who can build the biggest.
Seems to me there is shiploads of power available at mid day but no one is complaining about too much power being available at night even when there are supposedly less users.
Massive solar generation is going in right now that gives huge power through the day but zero at night. Wind is only really used now for night usage because it's no where near as cost effective as solar to build or maintain and there are many environmental drawbacks to it that solar does not have as well. It's only redeeming feature is it works at night.....  most of the time when there isn't too little or too much wind...

I can see the night time demand equaling the day for a few reasons.
batteries are becoming popular and a lot of people can have them without solar. they charge at night in the off peak and use the next day at peak times.
People are getting smarter and hooking up the pool pump and other loads to run at night and of course you have your hot water which in my place, is the biggest single phase load by far.
Add in to that everyone wanting to suck down 20-100Amps for their EV, if even only for a few hours and I believe we are going to get the situation where thee is plenty of power ( from solar) in the day to meet a large demand but still a lot of demand at night when there is much less power.
Rather than having cheap off peak/ night rates from Idling generators, I see the off peak night rates Disappearing and we go back to a flat rate.

I look at other places that pay attention to the power market and it is clearly changing.  The great ripoff TOU ( Time of use) rates where you could have 4 or 5 times and rates per day are being phased out. Power companies are finding with batteries and other things like time programmable appliances, people are doing what they wanted, the " Changing their behavior" crap and the power cos are loosing out.  They are going back to 2 rates from 4-5 and coming up with other " Plan's" to flatten out the useage rates.  It is going to be hard to put the brakes on solar now although they are starting to limit and even export back to the grid. Tell me all about that green power they promote again?  Soon as they see they are losing a buck they change the rules, again, in their favour.

People talk about batteries backing up the grid but the cost of that is not viable, and never will be.  What did the big Bullsh....errr SA battery cost? $50M and it's good for 30K homes ( if those homes are REAL light power users..... in a state of 230K homes.... Nope, that's not going to be a road they are going to go down either.

My bet is that the off peak will either be done away with and power will be one flat rate or the off peak rate may in fact reverse and be daytime at very least with more controlled load 2 where they can switch it on and off at different times to load shed when there is too much power from solar and they want to burn some off.

It's clear that the poower cos are always hedging their bets to make the user pay as much as they can and all the time flat out lying that they are trying to drive rates down for customers.
Yeah, limiting or preventing you pushing solar power back to the grid, insulting feedback rates, charging .60C kwh for power when you need it most and all those other thing really prove they aren't out to screw people over as much as they can...

We hear oil is running out as a justification for price gouging.
Can you imagine what it's going to be like when they are telling us power is in short supply because everyone is running an EV?
That's EXACTLY what they did when AC became cheaper and popular and you can run that all day and still use less than charging an EV.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on June 01, 2018, 12:17:32 AM
Overnight charging with L1 and L2 chargers should be reasonably well tolerated by the utility grid . Daytime charging while commuters are at work , not a good idea .

As I pointed out above, the move toward solar power and massive generation form that does not support that idea.
The only ways to get power at night now are from wind, of which to my knowledge in most parts is very limited, and traditional gas/ Coal power stations.

I think the generation curve is going to closely match the demand curve for a while and to a point. Once everyone starts shifting these High demand loads to night time, the demand curve will flatten out but the generation will be exactly the same.
I think that charging while at ork WILL be a real good idea because that's going to be when there is so much solar generated power available, not at night.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 01, 2018, 01:04:33 AM
Another issue that has been completely overlooked is the availability of parking in urban areas. When I lived in London only the very wealthy could afford off street parking and a home with a built in garage was exorbitantly expensive. Ordinary mortals, like myself, had to find parking on the street. So how am I going to plug in my EV to charge? Are the government going to dig up every road in London to install charging points? What are the health and safety implications of having every pavement covered in electric cables, who will be liable when someone trips over one of these and injures themselves? Who is going to maintain these cables to prevent the general public being electrocuted?

Too many questions, not enough answers.

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on June 01, 2018, 01:39:03 AM


They are very good points Bob but in fairness, I'd have to say that there aren't fuel stations or very many of them in the citys either.
guess you would have to rely on range.  Of course the problem is if you run out of petrol in the city you can get some brought to you and be on your way.
I think this will be a business for the new age.

just last night I was looking on Alibaba for generators.  I got an alert of a new type. It's specifically for Charging EV's. At this stage it's for the Asian 3 wheelers mainly and does up to 48V but thats what the thing ( and several others) are clearly aimed at.
I can see Small vans running round with Diesel generators in them pulling up and giving stalled EV's a top up to get them to a charging station somewhere and off the road. The road service mobs won't be carrying Petrol, they will have a generator or a super High output alternator like the idiots with 10,000W car stereos have to give the EV's a quick Zap.

I have looked at those High output alternators. Would you believe some of them are doing 5Kw of power.... and these pelicans can run up to 6 of them to run a sound system?
Sometimes I am lost for words.... as many as I have!

I do see a big problem with the EV charging in the city.
Lets say a building wants to put in 10 Chargers... just for the execs to plug into. Maybe a few for important clients.
Unless these things are limited to whats going to take all day to charge a vehicle, the power load on that is going to be huge.  Say it's a mid output, 30 amps, that's another 300A. Have you seen what size cable that requires? 

Now one extra load like that is not a drop in the ocean but what about the company that has 50 vehicles for reps and managers etc and they want to have charging facilities.  And every single building is going to want them AND a lot WILL want the fastest chargers they can get.
NOW we are talking serious power.

What about parking stations and shopping centres that will want and probably have to offer charging facilities.  Plug 100 Vehicles in there most of whom are probably wanting fast charge and the mind boggles at the power that's going to suck down.
That's dig up the street type stuff from out beyond the city / town to get the increased power in for sure. 
And that's just the Businesses. What about the apartments where these city dwellers live? Garages are a big thing for them and they would have to have access to an Ev charging point of decent capacity. If you have 100 of them in one building....

I have seen articles where they say the power increase over all from EV's will be negligible. I don't buy that at all but anyway.
Certainly industry and business consumes huge amounts of power. Can you imagine what the local shopping centre or a hospital pulls down. I know how much the local swimming pool does.
These things were all planned and allowed for from the time they were designed. The sites were chosen with power supply in mind.
Now we are looking at providing many times more power in concentrated areas where is was never envisioned.  It's a very different thing.

If you know you are going to build a manufacturing facility you say OK, this place has the main feeder line 2 KM away so we can bring in 3 5Kv lines from there, Put in sub stations here, here and here and go from there. No biggie.
To suddenly want 4x the power you were using before in a residential area..... yeah.

Wherever you localise something it has to be brought in from further out and that's going to be a BIG issue as you point out.
It's going to be an even bigger issue when EVERYONE wants more Juice.

Rather than them limiting solar as they are now, I can see the day when they will be paying people for their roof and any other space.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 01, 2018, 03:24:10 AM
Hey Glort, I recently saw a review of the latest BMW EV, it comes with a wireless charger as an optional extra. You just park your vehicle over the floor mat charger and walk away. I guess BMW owners are too important or too busy to plug in their cars. What sort of exposure the drivers will get to dangerous radiation is any bodies guess. Bruce would have a fit.

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on June 01, 2018, 04:56:45 AM
Air coupled transformers are grossly inefficient, besides spewing huge stray magnetic fields.  Another triumph of the wireless marketing over all reason.  Imagine sacrificing 20% or more efficiency in charging a car, as much power as your entire home uses, just so you don't have to use a cord.





Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on June 01, 2018, 05:35:17 AM

  Imagine sacrificing 20% or more efficiency in charging a car, as much power as your entire home uses, just so you don't have to use a cord.

But Bruce, EV's are all green and environmental remember???  That means no matter how bad they are, they are always good!
If an EV needed 50 Kwh to charge it's battery, at 20@ that's an extra 10 Kw wasted.  Unbelievable.

To my way of thinking, if they can get a fuel hose from a tanker into a fighter plane doing 500 knots, there has to be a way of Driving a car onto some guides so it lines up with a probe that sticks itself in a charging port and the disconnects when you back away.
That's if it's so much bother for you to plug the bloody thing in which would take a fraction of the time filling a car with petrol would do anyway.

Isn't it incredible how goddam lazy and useless we have become?

" Save yourself the effort work of plugging in your EV with our wireless charging System. No need to unplug when you drive to the gym to get some exercise that you have every modern convenience to avoid lifting a finger otherwise, now you can just drive off.  Check out our app where you can find wireless charging to top up on your way home at your nearest fast food joint!"


Quote
Bruce would have a fit.

So might the rest of us well and truly!
I can only imagine what that would have to radiate but My guess is if you were over the thing while it was active, you'd probably know about it.
Your wrist watch may start burning into your arm and instead of removing a wedding ring from your finger, the finger would be removed by the ring.

You might come home at night and find all your metal tools piled up in the center of the garage Floor 1 meter high like some sort of modern sculpture.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 01, 2018, 05:46:02 AM
You can be bloody sure that If you have one of these thing lying on your driveway some Muppet is going to run over it with the lawn mower, killing themselves and knocking out the power to the whole street.

There is nothing green about an extra 20% loss in efficiency. In the EU they banned high power vacuum cleaners because they were too inefficient and yet they are actively promoting this sort of pointless sh1t.

F*cking speechless!

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on June 01, 2018, 07:48:57 AM
Wireless charging devices of all types have been proposed for many years, yet still "new" product promotions are made in the usual fashion made on a regular basis.  Most of them are lucky to get 60% efficiency. Even using resonant coils at higher frequencies, it's still grossly inefficient.

There is a reason serious engineers have been using stacked or wound silicon steel (aka electrical steel or grain oriented electrical steel) sheets for power transformer cores the last 98 years...

 



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 01, 2018, 08:39:34 AM
Hey BruceM, once again you are a fountain of knowledge and FACTS. When are we the dumb sheeple going to hand over control of science, engineering and the environment to people who have at least some modicum of understanding of the challenges facing humanity? I am really worried that those presently in charge are more interested in their personal wealth and social standing than the welfare of the ten billion people they are supposed to represent. I don`t see any of this ending well.

Still F*cking speechless, thank God I can still type.
Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on June 01, 2018, 09:45:58 AM


watch this get spin doctored and outright Lied about....

" The new geewizz crapmobile has a 50 Kwh battery that at XX cents per KWH, only costs $10 to charge up!"

....Plus the 20% wasted through the charger, plus the extra you need to charge a battery because it's not a 1:1  charge to capacity ratio, plus transformer losses and that's before you get to mechanical and electrical looses in the vehicle itself.

Then they will promote the wireless Charger feature....

"Are you tired of always having to plug in and unplug Your EV? Exhausted for the strenuous effort after a hard days work? Is your back aching, your feet hurting and it's all getting too much to handle dealing with cables tangling around everything posing a threat of life and limb to your family. Well now you don't have to put yourself through the strain of lifting that ugly and unsightly connector and charging cable off the wall and plugging it into your car any Longer!"

The way they Blow things out of proportion, I'm surprised they haven't come up with a Robot to feed you so you don't have to exert and tire yourself out  lifting that heavy Cutlery!

No doubt they will add in something about  Saving's on oil changes in there and no emissions like has become mandatory whenever speaking of anything to do with an EV.   ::)

Bruce, would these things ( floor mat layout Charger) have to have something to shut them off when the vehicle wasn't over them for health reasons?
I know beans about them but I imagine they are like a big radiating coil.  Surely that wouldn't be a good thing for anyone to stand over?
Would you feel any radiation or warmth whatever from it? Would metal warm up?

What if you were over the top and it was active, would your phone go haywire or any other effects?
Ironic. Here you are trying to minimize these fields and and warn people of the dangers and these pelicans are creating great big high power ones to install in your home!   ???
 

BTW, have you any idea how hard it is to buy an old style transistor radio these days? Since you have been mentioning them as detectors, I have been Looking for one and the only thing I can find are digital tech types that have microprocessors or something instead of the old style electronics with coils and chokes and things.

Looked in the Op shop the other day as well and everything was clearly too new to be any good.
Who would have thought something so simple could be difficult to get.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 01, 2018, 11:17:14 AM
Hey Guys, I am, I think, beginning to get a handle on how this is going to work: government will slowly outlaw IC engines and coal fired generation, in the name of environmental greenness. Big business and energy producers will slowly but surely build huge solar arrays to harvest the sun`s energy. All good so far, the problem has always been storage for night time/cloudy day use. Guess what, it won`t be the responsibility of the energy supplier, it will be the home owners responsibility to supply and maintain enough energy storage to power there home/EV & etc. This leaves the generation companies free to continue to rort the system without any guarantee of continuous supply. It allows the government to claim green credentials while continuing to tax people for their energy usage.
If you are poor and can`t afford the necessary storage you get to sit in the cold and dark, no doubt there will be some emergency night time power available at a hugely inflated price.
I can see the greedy B*stards rubbing there hands together thinking how clever they are for duping the sheeple again, watch your backs they`re out to get you. Investigate energy storage solutions and hope for a miracle.
Still F*cking speechless
Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: Johndoh on June 01, 2018, 12:53:51 PM
https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/electrified-road-sweden-first-ever-charge-cars-trucks-vehicles-stockholm-a8302656.html
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on June 01, 2018, 01:46:05 PM

Your theory sounds fundamentally  right to me Bob.

It's ALWAYS the little guy that has to bear the brunt and pay for the decisions of others that he has no control over. Not sure they will leave people without power, takes a LOT for your power or water to be cut off these days regardless if you pay the bill or not.  I do think that what there is will be extortionate though.

One upside I do see with EV's -IF- they add the function will be as a power reserve. Tesla batteries have 11 KWh storage. Small EV has about 50.
May be possible for some people to charge at work, bring the car home and run off it at night. If you live close to work you could have enough to get you there in the morning. Even if you bled 20 Kwh out the thing it should still get you a reasonable distance and I spose an EV wouldn't use a lot of energy in the city crawl to work.

Maybe we should look at investing in a chinese  factory that produces QUALITY ' Roids and horozontals. We could sell them as an alternative to batteries to power homes at night.   Buying into a used veg oil collection service might be a wise move too.
 
Former neighbour used to go to china 3-4 times a year and have parts made he sold through his car parts store. He'd get an original part, take it there, they would look it over and give him a price to reproduce it.  He said often they would say we can do it for this much as it but this has design weakness here. We can make it better for . 75 cents extra.  He said with parts they knew nothing about from cars they never heard of, they always picked the failure point that was well known here.  Pay the cents extra and they would change the design enough to take that weakness out and build a part that almost never failed.

Imagine taking a genuine Lister over there and saying  we want these only fix everything wrong and modernize it. They would give you a price, you'd offer $10 more to build it better and you'd have an out the box machine that truly was bullet proof.

You could get the injector and pump optomised for Veg or sumpgunk, have electronic controls and sensor ports to run the thing like a start o matic or just remote start and stop with monitoring and shutdown in the event of overheat, loss of oil pressure etc.  automatic battery charging.  Thing would be balanced, smooth and quiet. 
Oh to dream!

There is no way I can see batteries every getting cheaper. To me it does not stand to reason.  If they are in demand and people get to need them, why would they be cheap?  I don't see car batteries having got cheaper over the years even though there are millions of them made every year and production levels are still growing. I think the batteries getting cheaper thing is a misnomer touted by people that have no idea of manufacturing and more importantly, business.

Solar panels have come down in price too but they still aren't exactly cheap where people can afford to buy them and cover their roofs with the things.

You can bet the gubbermints will get in for their cut too. There will be all sorts of created levys and fees on batteries right to the end with disposal or recycling fees.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on June 01, 2018, 02:36:54 PM
https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/electrified-road-sweden-first-ever-charge-cars-trucks-vehicles-stockholm-a8302656.html

Look at that! New innovative thinking to solve modern problems. How fantastic!  Real life Size Slot cars! I had a slot car set 45 years ago when I was a kid. Who ever thought real cars would one day be like that!
 Can they have races? How many slots on a road can you have?

Why in fk would you put the slot in the road where it is going to get dirt and grit in the thing ( not to mention water) which will make the contact points wear like buggery and cause issues with the power going into the road and the ground around it.  I can only assume both poles of the power are in the one narrow track. That makes it vulnerable to water and metal objects shorting them out or at least leeching a lot of power.  I can see the whole middle of the road steaming as the water boils between the narrow rails.  That wouldn't bleed much power and be a waste now would it?

It's like a plot to send our beloved Bruce to an early grave just through the stress and worry of this sort of thing. Who the hell came up with this and whats' more, how did it even get to this stage without someone saying " ang on a minute there "ol chap, I see a problem with this 'ere idea..."

If you were going to do something like this, not that I would because it's stupid and an invented solution looking for an application to satisfy, why would you not do it train style and put the lines over head?  Yes, you would have to put in the supports to hold the wires but is that going to be that much more expensive that putting train track in the middle of the road? It would sure solve a lot of problems with dirt, water and other things though.

I'd like to see how things go when the driver spots something on the road and weaves to avoid it. I can see that  dragging Penis tearing off and being hit by the vehicle behind it and all sorts of carnage following.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: Johndoh on June 01, 2018, 03:59:54 PM
Apparently they can charge batteries wirelessly too. You'd have coils connected to the grid on main roads probably to reduce the risk of people running out of juice but if it were to happen I'm sure it would be at a cost. I know there's phones you can charg without a wired charger so the technology exists. I was reading somewhere the other day that they (they being car manufacturers) can modify a diesel engine exhaust to such an extent that a 2.0 diesel pollutes less than a 1.0 petrol. Maybe too late for the diesel now? I used to have an Audi A4 diesel but they changed the insurance rules in Ireland so nobody will cover a car over 15 years old in an affordable way. My car was well maintained old change every 6k all repairs done immediately they were needed it was sold for scrap.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on June 01, 2018, 04:32:10 PM
All wireless power transmission of the sort being discussed is based on the horribly inefficient air core transformer...with massive stray magnetic fields.  Technically foolish and biologically harmful.

it's very frustrating to watch the whole world get caught up in wireless and connectivity hype, while watching increasing numbers of people become ill and disabled from wireless.  The new push for 5G is an outrageous disaster in the making.  The 5G "small cells" are NOT low power, and they have manipulated legislation so that they can put 2K watt worth of transmitters on light and power poles right outside your bedroom.  There's that annoying bit of physics that all transmitted power falls off with the square of the distance; which is also why complaining about cell towers while using cell phones and WIFI in the home is irrational.  A broadband RF meter quickly helps you learn what you can't see or immediately feel.

The same falling off with the square of the distance applies to magnetic fields from transformers, power supplies and coils and such; often just relocating them somewhat can make very big differences in your daily (and nightly) exposure levels.  The night time exposures are especially important.

There's some very high quality research showing pulsed microwaves open the blood-brain barrier; given our well documented high levels of xenobiotics in our bloodstream this might help explain a lot of problems and alarming disease trends.

When helping with home mitigation there are two things I find most important. First, I look for low hanging fruit where 10 fold improvements can be made and do those first. Spending a bunch of time and money on small improvements is not productive.  Second, the typical non-placebo response is a slow improvement in health over the following 90 days after the home is fixed.  It is not an on/off switch, the health effects are deeper and more systemic.  Improvement in sleep quality is a very positive sign that someone will be getting better, but often there is just a very slow and steady improvement.

For some reason, it is very hard for most of us (including myself) to want to deal with the EMF situation. It's technical and scary, never a popular combination.  I only got started about 29 years ago when someone visiting me showed me a meter and the readings in various places.  The biggest hurdle is getting started.






Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on June 01, 2018, 06:49:31 PM
Sensible rules the EPA would breath life into the new and old diesels . I do not condone billowing  black smoke from exhaust stack but neither does the air coming out of the engine have to  be cleaner than the air that went in . Tier 1 is fine for under 100HP in light duty intermittent, standby or hobby applications
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 01, 2018, 11:27:37 PM
Thanks Johndoh for the link. I have to assume that the system is not running at grid voltage so probably something like 48 Volt DC, going to burn out a lot of brushes and produce horrendous radio interference.
They only have a bit over one mile of this track, A vehicle traveling at sixty miles per hour is only going to get just over a minute of charge. I predict huge traffic jams caused by people slowing down to get a longer charge.
I wonder if this sort of stupidity is being funded by industry or is the tax payer picking up the bill?
In the article it states that road side detectors energise the track only when a vehicle is detected, the vehicle owner is then billed for the charging they receive. What sort of relays are they using to energise the track and how robust and hacker free will the wifi detectors be?
Hundreds of thousands of miles of roads in Europe, how much is this going to cost? I think I`ll take the train and walk.

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: Johndoh on June 01, 2018, 11:39:59 PM
Thanks Johndoh for the link. I have to assume that the system is not running at grid voltage so probably something like 48 Volt DC, going to burn out a lot of brushes and produce horrendous radio interference.
They only have a bit over one mile of this track, A vehicle traveling at sixty miles per hour is only going to get just over a minute of charge. I predict huge traffic jams caused by people slowing down to get a longer charge.
I wonder if this sort of stupidity is being funded by industry or is the tax payer picking up the bill?
In the article it states that road side detectors energise the track only when a vehicle is detected, the vehicle owner is then billed for the charging they receive. What sort of relays are they using to energise the track and how robust and hacker free will the wifi detectors be?
Hundreds of thousands of miles of roads in Europe, how much is this going to cost? I think I`ll take the train and walk.

Bob

All electrical things are beyond me so the technology for this is way above my head. I like diesel engines the power, the torque and the fuel economy are great. A few years ago there were a couple of biodiesel plants round here one made diesel from waste cooking oil and another from rape seed and algae. Then the crash came and diesel prices dropped by about 40%. These were very clean fuels and probably environmentally good or neutral at worst. Of course the guys making the diesel were on pennies to the liter and couldn't compete with OPEC and then the frackers and sand oil guys got going. Now diesel is going up a couple of cents twice a week but the biodiesel plants are closed. Bugger
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 01, 2018, 11:45:11 PM
Hey Glort, very interested in your idea of having the Chinese reverse engineer a superior Listeroid. Trouble is you can be sure the government would ban their import to protect the environment (protect vested interests).
I`ll be very surprised if China don`t already make them. I`m sure a quick look on Alibaba will reveal the truth.

The good news is that I have finally had my income protection insurance claim approved. Only took 18 months! That will give me the money I need to complete my Lister 6/1 rebuild. Rob at old timer engines is going to think it`s his birthday when he gets the parts list. I will start to post pictures of progress once the spares arrive.

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 01, 2018, 11:57:00 PM
Hey Johndoh, I`m with you on all things diesel. Much rather try to fix something mechanical than electrical. Used to be OK before they miniaturised everything into silicon chips.

Shame to hear about the loss of biodiesel production, assuming that the raw/recycled materials are still available, you could try making your own. A couple of thousand litres per year wouldn`t be too taxing and should provide you with all you need.

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on June 02, 2018, 06:23:51 PM
There is some chance that once the electrified motor cars become more of a reality to the ICE people that they'll start coming up with some real innovations.  You know, all those 100 miles per gallon units that were purchased from independent inventors and then put in the giant warehouse of secrets out in the desert.  OK.  It's small chance but it's what I'm reminded of when I read some of the contributions made to this forum.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 02, 2018, 11:29:34 PM
Hey Lowgear, there is no shortage of conspiracy theories suggesting that big manufacturers and other vested interests own the patents on a great many cool inventions. One of the worst culprits is the US military who simply have to claim that an invention could be used as a weapon by a foreign power for it becomes a state secret. I suspect the US government aren`t the only ones using this tactic.

Bob
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on July 04, 2018, 02:09:59 PM

Spent some Time reading up on Tesla and the EV market.

What are peoples opinion on Tesla the company?  Do you think they will be around in the long term or do you think the clock is ticking before they close Down?

The opinions in the media are wide and varied for reasons for both sides.
They seem to have a very unique following and with the exception of Apple, I can't think of any other company with the same sort of dedicated fans.

Even Apple don't have a backorder list of 420,000 Customers though.

Will Tesla be a sink or swim company?
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on July 04, 2018, 03:59:02 PM
The only thing that will keep Tesla afloat is the utter irrationality of it's fans; it's clear that automobile production in large volumes is not in their skill set and the losses per model 3 out the door are not sustainable.  The arrogance is entertaining; he should have brought in the best in production expertise from the auto industry. He may have tried and been shunned for the obvious reasons. 

One more stone added to the ever increasing daily load of EMF exposure.  The increase in chronic illness, degenerative neurological diseases in the elderly and autism spectrum in children is already stunning.  Conventional gas and diesel cars are rushing to add more wireless transmitters, digital electronics and switch mode power supplies so that they can keep up with the onslaught.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on July 04, 2018, 05:49:39 PM
The only thing that will keep Tesla afloat is the utter irrationality of it's fans;

I'm not even sure that's enough Bruce.

The thing that amuses me is it's quite clear a huge percentage of their fans probably don't and will never afford to own a tesla product.  They sure quaff down incredible amounts of the musk flavored Koolaide though!
When I see things that are one sided in the media, IE, the majority consensus they are getting into hotter water, I start to look for the opposite opinion because usually there are facts not presented in the main stream. I looked for that with Tesla and I can't find a thing in their favour that would support their ongoing future other than blind faith and irrational hope.


There are SO many things that are against them right now.....

They did NOT hit their target of 5000 Model 3 cars last week.
They have a huge workforce turnover which means many unskilled and properly trained workers.
They are throwing stupid money at Model 3 with tents and FLYING in tons of equipment. Even if they did make 5000 Model 3's, they made NO money on them and shot themselves in the foot slowing down production of 900 other models.  It will be interesting to see how much wash was burned this quarter.

Next year there will be a load of new models from mainstream manufacturers competing with them.  The Jag is about to pounce for one thing.
If the Chinese put the extra tarrifs on US cars, that could hurt sales real bad and tesla has put a lot of money into that market.
They are under investigation from a load of Different angles from safety of the cars to workplace safety, taxes, and other things.
The only reason they are still trading is because of the Billion + they have in deposits, IE, interest free loans.  Other loans, bog ones are falling due within the next 6 months.
They are laying off people in the solar section, power walls which must be decently profitable are in short supply ue to all the batteries being taken by the car division.  Roof tiles are not selling well ( Just like every other time at least 10 other makers have tried them before) and it does not seem the company is making profit anywhere.
They are going through Senior management like they are going through cash. Maybe the 2 are related?

At current production rates, they have 19 months backlog of production.  In 12 months let alone 19, there will be a load of new models available from a bunch of manufacturers.  The choice will be wide and the delivery will be far quicker, probably weeks in most cases.
Of course wether they can go another 12 months will be interesting to see.


Quote
it's clear that automobile production in large volumes is not in their skill set

I laughed when I saw an article about a Ford boss having a shot at them. Musk did a tweet ( embarrassing in itself!)  about 5000 cars, 7 Days, team tesla.
the ford Boss Responded, 5000 cars, circa 4 hours, team Ford.
Funny as hell but it certainly puts things in perspective.  As one article rightly pointed out, Musk is trying to solve problems all the other manufacturers had figured out decades ago. The same article also pointed out that Musk was too proud to bring anyone else in to help them solve these rather menial problems that are really hurting them.


Quote
and the losses per model 3 out the door are not sustainable.


The profit on each vehicle is well argued. Some say he's loosing money, some say he's making good money.
Right now, they must be causing a shortage of red ink.  They are pushing workers to do 12 Hours shifts and working them weekends as well. Money is just being thrown at getting 3's out the door.
Somewhere along the line they seem to have lost sight of the fact that the whole reason they are there is to make money.  The model 3 was supposed to make them money but it seems they have spent more on it than they can ever recover.
Saving the world and all that won't happen if they can't pay the workers, suppliers and keep the lights on.

Speaking of Keeping the lights on, I see a great hypocrisy in Musk and all his change the world, renewable energy rhetoric.
If that's what he is really all about and making the world so much better, Why is the gigafactory not covered in solar panels on it's huge roof top and why are they not storing power in their own batteries to use at night?  they make the dam things and promote that to other people and lay on the guilt trip so why are they not leading by example?
Hypocrites.


Quote
The arrogance is entertaining; he should have brought in the best in production expertise from the auto industry. He may have tried and been shunned for the obvious reasons. 

The spin doctoring, untruths and plain lies are incredible.
NOTHING the guy says is the truth! One reporter was saying you ALWAYS have to check the details with musk and sure enough, he found the latest spin doctored caveat. The 5000 cars last week was counted using " Factory Dated" Units.  Means they weren't finished but went to wait on parts or labour to be finished.  In other words, the cars that went out the gate rather than the door were a LOT less than the 5000 claimed.


I do take an interest in how the guy can fail repeatedly yet still have a cult like following.
I think it comes down to telling people what they want to hear and giving people something to root for and believe in.
For many of the deciples, the fact they see him as " Trying" is enough and their fallback excuse/ defense.

ATM he can't fulfill orders he has yet he's talking about a truck and a ute and other things. It seems like if you just keep promising a better future people will keep their gaze fixed on the carrot at the end of the pole and forget about the pile of ship right in front of them they have to wade through to get anywhere near it.
The guys sales skills and ability to spin doctor and deceive people while increasing their support for him is astounding.
Isn't he south African? If he was US born, there would be your future President without a doubt!  With his power of persuasion, still might be. 



Quote
One more stone added to the ever increasing daily load of EMF exposure.

An interesting observation.  The occupants of the things must be Bombarded. From what I understand, they are in constant wifi ( or whatever) communication with the factory.  The circuits in the things and all manner of electric and electronic equipment must not only saturate the occupants but radiate out to anyone near the things a substantial amount as well.
For people like you Bruce, they could be a Suicide machine.  For the rest of us, might just give us the same problems.

Maybe the tin foil hat needs to be accompanied but the rest of the suit?
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on July 04, 2018, 06:19:52 PM
Alas, aluminum foil is utterly transparent to ELF magnetic fields, and only starts to be meaningful in shielding magnetic fields over 1MHz.  Electrical steel (silicon steel) or mu-metals are used for lower frequency magnetic fields and can't be made into fabrics as thickness is required.  A single layer of GOES (grain oriented silicone steel) typically provides only 50% reduction. Multiple insulated layers are used for higher shielding.  Shielding a high power electrical motor to a level needed to allow someone to sit two feet away will be a serious engineering challenge; the cost and weight will be substantial.  Pure DC does not cause problems so the battery issue will have to be addressed by LC filtering of the drawn current down to pure DC. Doable, but again adds weight and cost.

Full blown electrical hypersensitivity will be the far less common outcome.  Disregulation of the endocrine, immune and nervous systems, and toxic injury to the brain from opening the blood-brain barrier have diverse effects that will depend on your genome and epigenetics.  Sitting on top of the battery, right next to a high power electric motor on a VFD is certainly a good stress test for your body.

Toxic injury to the brain is no fun. Every aspect of your quality and joy of life will be greatly diminished. 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on July 04, 2018, 07:19:56 PM
The motor industry doesn't have large scale "middle ground market" players who are independent

You have Corollas as cheap cars and Rolls-Royces as expensive cars

In the middle - at Tesla price-point - you have the top half of Audis, you have Lexus, you have the middle of the Mercedes-Benz range, you might have the cheapest third of Porsche . . .

But these are all part of monster manufacturers, none "independent" like Tesla

The closest comparison might be the now Indian-owned Jaguar which is now certainly making better cars than it ever did in British ownership - but Jaguar has badge cred . . .

Tesla will survive if it can manage "scale", or if it gets into bed with a bigger company, or if it has a continuing willingness to absorb losses
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on July 04, 2018, 11:42:20 PM

 Shielding a high power electrical motor to a level needed to allow someone to sit two feet away will be a serious engineering challenge; the cost and weight will be substantial.  Pure DC does not cause problems so the battery issue will have to be addressed by LC filtering of the drawn current down to pure DC. Doable, but again adds weight and cost.

Seems like that could be a good way to Take down EV enthusiasm. Start a Public awareness campaign and let social media do the rest.
I note the Jag Ipace is DC Permanent Magnet motors.  Don't know if they are just DC or 3 phase which would seem likely and there would be a controller throwing out or causing EMF. If they are straight DC, Then they have the Kryptonite to dispatch Tesla.


Quote
Toxic injury to the brain is no fun. Every aspect of your quality and joy of life will be greatly diminished.

You have no idea of the irony and absolute  beyond co incidence of that statement today of all days.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on July 05, 2018, 12:25:34 AM

But these are all part of monster manufacturers, none "independent" like Tesla

that is yet another problem for Tesla, there are other independent makers in the wings that are also getting ready to enter the market.
There is one other EV company with a car to give Tesla a run in the performance stakes that is tooling up and just waiting on approval for their model before they go into production.  Unlike tesla you don't see much of them in the media, they are like the quiet achievers as opposed to tesla whom are like the loud failures.

I'm not sure if they will be a mass producer but they probably don't have to be. To take on the model X they would only have to produce about 5000 cars a month.  If they can do that with reliability and quality of the vehicles they produce, that alone could put a big dent in Teslas  sales and income.


Quote
Tesla will survive if it can manage "scale", or if it gets into bed with a bigger company,

Scale is Not the metric they need I don't think.  Their profit per vehicle is highly questionable on the 3's which is why they won't make the $35,000 media bait car.  Few, including Tesla seem to disagree that's a loss maker. It serves well as a Typical Tesla Distraction though. The $35K EV car that's mentioned in every media report that does not exist and possibly never will. Just like the Big battery in south Oz that was " Built in only 100 Days"..... when it was more than half finished of course. Nothing like starting the clock when you are half way through a job and then claiming it " only" took you so long to do it!  ::)

I don't think any bigger company would want to get into bed with Tesla.
Too much debt, way too much risk from a variety of angles from safety lawsuits, employee working conditions and massive financial exposure.
What would be the benefit to anyone going in with them?  Musk has made everyone else out to be the oppressors against them, soon as they throw in with anyone else they will loose at least half their fan club and be seen as traitors.  There is nothing for the company to gain in taking them over. They already have access to all the technology, what else is there for them? How to make a few cars a week in a tent on a production line that would have probably been a Joke in the '70's?

The stock price is ridiculously inflated so would cost a Bomb. Much easier just to sit back, let them fall over and pick up the remains for cents on the Dollar.


Quote
or if it has a continuing willingness to absorb losses

And that is the entire Rub with them now.  The INVESTORS are not prepared to take any more losses.  Mush has promised profitability. For a long time.
They have big loans falling due before the end of the year. If they can't make them, they are going to be in real deep Kaka.  Musk has repeatedly said they won't need any more money against everyone else saying they will. If he goes back on this, I think they are finished. There are few places to go for the money anyway. Most financial institutions would not give it to them.

Many are already questioning their " unique" accounting practices which of course like everything else about the company, hide the real truth in what they say.  The Securities commission is already investigating them over this.
They must have more Gubbermint inspectors hanging round the offices than they do employee's!

Clearly the investors are NOT willing to take any more losses and unless Musk can start posting some real profit, we'll be talking about the aftermath of the Tesla crash this time next year.
He's already propped up the company by buying tens of Millions in shares earlier this year.

His supporters have the " He's trying to change the world  and doing something new " mentality which seems to justify all mistakes and problems.
He's a fantastic Spin doctor, Fall short on a promised target and start talking about building new products when you can't even fill orders for the few products you have.  And his flock of disciples lap it all up and defend him.
 
The thing is he's not doing anything new at all.  Even Directly, people are converting Volkswagens and other cars that are as fast or faster than a tesla and have more range.  You can throw money at anything and make it work.  The trick is not doing it but as a company with employees and shareholders, the mark of success is doing it profitably and living up to your claims.

Musks failure in this critical area is what undermines any and all respect I have for him... except his incredible ability as a salesman, showman and Manipulator. 


I did read something that I thought was a real facepalm into the mindset of the fanboi's of the company this morning.
Apparently some Hairbrained celeb started a campaign to raise money for Musk to buy him a couch after hearing the weirdo slept under his office desk at the factory. 

Just think about that.... ordinary people chipped in to buy him a $9000 couch for his office. A man that's worth 50+ BILLION whom is running a company that's burning through a Billion per financial quarter and they think he does not have the resources to buy himself a couch to put in his office?

What in gods name are these people Smoking???
No wonder he can get away with the things he does when his supporters are this gullible and brainwashed.

I would bet my arse it's another musk spin doctoring.  I'll bet he fell asleep in there once or twice but any other time has a suite somewhere in the factory like a hotel room.  The sleeping in the office would be just another load of crock designed to win the hearts and feeble minds of his supporters to keep the cash rolling in and the misgivings swept under the table.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on July 05, 2018, 01:25:03 AM
"Seems like that could be a good way to Take down EV enthusiasm. Start a Public awareness campaign and let social media do the rest."
Not likely.  The power industry has spent hundreds of millions on cigarette science, and the WHO is loaded with industry insiders.  It's pretty outrageous-  Andrew Marino book covers it fairly well. Other absurd references to various bogus standards based on industry denial.

"I note the Jag Ipace is DC Permanent Magnet motors.  Don't know if they are just DC or 3 phase which would seem likely and there would be a controller throwing out or causing EMF. If they are straight DC, Then they have the Kryptonite to dispatch Tesla."
Nope, there really is no such thing as DC in the operation of a motor; all electric motors depend on either electronic or mechanical commutation or alternation of current.  It is true that with special attention to design, stray magnetic fields could be reduced substantially.  It's just not even a design issue now.  A good example is your home refrigerator -freezer.  The compressor motor is typically NOT a significant stray field producer; it's field will fall off to below 0.008 milligaus (8 microgaus)  in about 4 feet or so.  The small fan for the compressor coils is also not a major source. But the lousy open frame motor used to blow the freezer air down into the refrigerator is a nasty bastard and typically affects a radius of 24 feet to the same 0.008 milligaus. 

The urge to deny any potential problems and remove liability by large corporations is an overwhelming force.  Pity, because it just isn't that hard to reduce home EMF levels a hundredfold or two orders of magnitude.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on July 06, 2018, 06:12:08 PM
One of the two provinces in Canada that gave tax payer’s money to EV users is ending the subsidy. Ontario voters decided they did not want to give $9500-$14,000BEV and hybrid purchasers .
  Just leaves British Columbia iirc to try and make a mass market where none exists . Why purchase a $52,000 Bolt when $23,000 will bring home the same vehicle with the Sonic nameplate .
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on July 07, 2018, 10:21:24 AM

Just reading some more on Tesla......
It's now suspected by some analysts that Tesla fudged the production figures for the last week and did NOT hit the 5000 unit mark at all.

From some inside reports along with typical Tesla invention of new terms for industry standard's,  some believe Tesla actually either fully or partially built a number of cars in the weeks leading up to the end of Q2, put them aside and then pushed them out the door in the last week to count in the target of 5000 Vehicles being produced in that week... although they never say produced.... They use their own unique terms for that.

Seems more than plausible to me given the antics of the CEO and his propensity to spin doctor every thing he says. 

Some Reporters whom believe the Figures were fudged are calling on musk to produce a video ( or they will for him)  showing 42 cars an hour completed and coming off the production line which is what the 5000 Claim works out at.

While I am not a proponent of EV's,  I think the fan's who make excuses and dismiss all Musks wrong doing and failures are really undermining their EV cause.  If tesla go down, all the deception, lies and everything else will come out and probably be " enhanced" in typical Tesla Style.
This will undoubtedly cause a lot of suspicion and  ridicule for the whole EV cause. There will be a LOT of people loose a LOT of Money if they go down and no doubt that will cause great suspicion and a bad taste in the mouths of those whom loose out.

Goes well beyond  people whom directly invested, most of tesla's investors come from different funds like superannuation and various other savings people have put into other companies as nesteggs.  People loose their Retirement money or life savings and Tesla and electric cars will be dirty words for a long time.  I'm sure the Fan Boi's as always will make a lot of excuses as will musk who constantly plays himself as the victim whenever any of his statements fall over with regards to production goals, profits and everything else.

One thing seems certain, he's backing himself into a corner and the walls are starting to close in.
The market is growing very nervous. Even when he said he hit his production goal, stock value went down significantly and has stayed there nearly a week.  Anylists are scrutinizing every thing he says very carefully now and if he can't make good on his promises, Many won't give him a second chance.

A few weeks back he taunted the shorts saying they were about to loose a lot of money. That's been a face plant for him. They have made around 15% which is not insignificant.

Put up  or be packed up time is getting closer every day.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on July 07, 2018, 11:19:01 AM
Why purchase a $52,000 Bolt when $23,000 will bring home the same vehicle with the Sonic nameplate .

I think that's a point that's going to keep the marketing dept in EV makers very busy.
The media running out of things to push with the " cheaper to run and no emissions"  line are turning and starting to point out the things are not cheaper to run at all and DO have emissions in most parts of the world.  They hype is starting to settle just a little that having an ev, even if everything on the road is electric, is not going to fix traffic congestion and other everyday problems on the road.

I think for some time, an EV will only be practical as a second car and an IC will still be needed for a lot of peoples needs.... Like towing a trailer.
EV's are going to be very expensive 2nd cars and not everyone will have the money to put down in luxury car amounts.

When you can buy a much cheaper car that does 90% of what the more exy one does for maybe half the cost, that's going to be a big hurdle to Jump.

I also wonder how far the green Motivation will stretch?  I'm sure a great majority would say they are all for Renewable, clean energy yet the uptake of " Green " power here which comes at a premium add on price to your power bill has a VERY small uptake.
If people aren't willing to pay a few cents extra per KW hour to supposedly save the planet, I wonder how many will be inclined to spend double on an EV as they need for a similarly equipped vehicle they are familiar with the operation and workings of ?

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on July 07, 2018, 05:17:38 PM
My much cherished green publications report that 2019 is going to be "The Year".  Get ready.

I too; am worried about Elon.  What an extraordinary person.  What a disruptive force to deal with.  What fun to watch a "B" movie in real life.

Casey
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on July 07, 2018, 05:49:53 PM
My much cherished green publications report that 2019 is going to be "The Year".  Get ready.

They year for what?

The year Tesla Crashes completely?  Don't think they will last that long.

20 New Models of Electric cars hit the market and none of them being a Tesla?  That's likely!

Elon gets arrested on a bunch of fraud and business law charges? That's likely too.

Another globull warming fearmongering prediction to completely miss the mark with record cold temps?  That's even more likely, pretty much a given!
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on July 07, 2018, 05:59:13 PM
What's with "globull warming", Glort?  Do you actually doubt the scientific consensus or are you just reacting out of frustration for green party incompetence in Australia?
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on July 08, 2018, 01:25:37 AM

Both I'm afraid Bruce.

I do not believe there is really any evidence or real fact either way. It is just opinion rather than anything that follows the scientific method that applies to all else.  The predictions and models for Globull warming have repeatedly failed to come true.
It seems any time this gets into a debate, it turns into people posting  media articles to and fro to support their position.  To me, relying on media articles is a very unscientific thing no matter what position you have. As I have nothing else than my own opinion and observations to rely on, it's a debate which even I won't waste time on because no one ever changes their mind and I probably wouldn't either.

I consider you to be a very smart and well educated man for whom I have enormous respect Bruce and I have learned that a person like myself is generally wise just to follow the lead of people like you and not try to figure things out for myself. It saves a lot of time in coming to the inevitable same conclusion.
On this one, I'm afraid i'm not convinced.

In honesty I see the whole globull warming thing as nothing but a money spinner and any variations in temperature ( which repeatedly go both ways) as nothing more than the natural behavior of the earth and the sun which is the main factor in the earths temperature and behavior.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on July 08, 2018, 03:10:02 AM
The corruption of science by wealthy and corporate interests, and the spinning of propaganda by governments has made many people entirely distrustful of any science.  The oil and gas industries/owners have bought themselves many years of profits by sowing doubts just like yours, and I'm sorry to see them be as successful as they are.

In the case of rising CO2 levels,  among the scientists who work in this field, there is a super-majority beyond which there is no higher level possible with humans involved. I know how difficult this is since I worked in a military research lab with about 30 PhDs . Our larger organization had hundreds of PHD's. Getting a small group of PhDs to agree on anything was virtually impossible.

When you think that you know about a field of science in which people have spent their entire academic lives working in,  this is likely the result of the Dunning-Kruger effect which has been extremely well confirmed as an inherent human trait. You often see it in PhD's ruminating about fields outside there own field.  We are all susceptible.

I don't trust governments or scientists in general, and have a distrust of my own brain damaged intellect. In this case, having looked more closely at the CO2 data and the subsequent ocean temperature and arctic ice loss confirmations by NASA, it's pretty damned obvious the scientific consensus is warranted and we're in serious trouble.  Scientists get ridiculed and attacked within their own ranks for making exaggerated statements- so they intentionally understate and avoid grandstanding.  Some have expressed the situation in terms like "possible extinction event".  They just don't know what will happen to the worlds ecosystem balance as CO2 levels rise above those estimated for our current epoch, and they are very concerned.  They are concerned that by doing nothing, we may bring about our extinction.  While I'm not a huge fan of humans, I don't know of any better sentient beings, and I think we should try to use the best science available to guide us. 









Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mikenash on July 08, 2018, 05:09:32 AM
Bruce M says:

" . . . I don't know of any better sentient beings, and I think we should try to use the best science available to guide us . . ."

And I say  +1
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: mike90045 on July 08, 2018, 06:34:15 AM
So, does burning fossil fuel raise Co2, or chopping down forests and burning them to clear land, increase Co2. 
How about a month long volcanic eruption? (I guess that has some cooling aerosols too)

So many factors, different models that never converge, and raw data needing to be "processed" before it can be used.  And the largest factor, solar variability.

I'm quite skeptical myself, predicted cooling in the 70's , freon eating the ozone layer,  magnetic poles weakening and moving, dire warnings of warming. 
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: dieselspanner on July 08, 2018, 08:00:31 AM
I don't know either, however should we not take the action that may be needed then we'll regret it far more that trying to save a planet that was doing alright on it's own...............

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on July 08, 2018, 04:33:38 PM
All the skepticism Mike90045 raises are specifically from the program of misinformation funded by the Koch brothers and their program of using their inheritance tax avoiding foundation interest money to fund a political agenda for their increased personal and corporate profits.  ''Dark Money'' is a depressing but eye opening book about how they and others have gone about this, with amazing success. 

Freon was phased out worldwide to address the ozone problem, with global cooperation, and the result was that the problem was arrested and is now reversing (the molecules last 20-100 years). This is an example of taking action on the best scientific data, and having it work. Not the other way around.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/06/ozone-layer-mend-thanks-chemical-ban

None of the theories such as predictions of another ice age were in any way a consensus of the field. They were the musing of a few individuals based on some evidence of a repeating pattern of ice ages.  Using this type of distortion of science to confuse and delay action on CO2 is exactly the mission of the Kochs, and it has been highly effective in the US.


Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: LowGear on July 08, 2018, 05:50:18 PM
My father always questioned the conservation mantra of not too many years ago.  "Only YOU can prevent forest fires!"  He pointed out lightening strikes.  The part of the mantra that he didn't see was that only people can modify their behavior to reduce the number of forest fires.  We do many activities that reduce the consequences of humans being on the planet.  Natural phenomena does not release us from intelligent, responsible or moral behavior.  Back to the camp site.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: 32 coupe on July 08, 2018, 07:28:56 PM
Bruce,
"Freon"  being phased out in my opinion has been a joke.

R22  was supposed to be out 20 years ago. But it is still available. Can be purchased at
any AC supply house. You can't  buy R22 equipment any more but the gas is still out there.

R22 is not supposed to be manufactured now but look on line and you will see the Chinese
are manufacturing TONS of the stuff as well as exporting it every day.
I saw a documentary not to long ago about a man who went to China, saw it being made,
and asked about importing to the US. The response was that China could not directly import
into the US but by shipping through other countries they could eventually get it into the country.

It will eventually go away but I would.be surprised if it were any time soon.

Have you seen the replacement for 134a in cars ? That is scary stuff that is flammable !
Mercedes has been fighting it in court for a number of years. But it is here in a few cars
and widely used in europe. At $800 for a 10 pound jug it's going to be very costly for
consumers.

R410 was supposed to be the "end all" for R22 but it has come under attack as of
late and I can see another battle brewing over that.

No matter what happens it will only be more expense for the consumer.



Gary



Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on July 08, 2018, 11:04:59 PM
As badly implemented as it was, the improvement in the arctic ozone hole is measurable. I think you've missed the forest for the trees-  vast amounts of R12 was never put in service, with only mild disruption.  Perfection isn't in the available range of choices for any human activity, certainly not for regulations. 

The stumble ahead continues as HFC's that had less impact on ozone have been found to be highly effective as greenhouse gasses. 

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/epa-bans-greenhouse-gas-19197

Certainty and constancy are illusions.










Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: broncodriver99 on July 09, 2018, 01:12:54 AM
"Freon" is a trade name copyrighted by Chemours/Dupont. There are many other names used.

R22 was supposed to be out 20 years ago. But it is still available. Can be purchased at
any AC supply house. You can't  buy R22 equipment any more but the gas is still out there.

R22 is not supposed to be manufactured now

It will eventually go away but I would.be surprised if it were any time soon.

R410 was supposed to be the "end all" for R22 but it has come under attack as of
late and I can see another battle brewing over that.

No matter what happens it will only be more expense for the consumer.

R-22 is not officially slated to be phased out in the US until Jan. 1, 2020. It was allowed in new equipment until 2010. In 2020, production of new R-22 ends. Anything already manufactured and in the distribution network will still be available as well as recycled refrigerant. R-22 will be around for the next 20 years. The amount of equipment that uses R-22 is astounding. One can still buy virgin R-12 if there is a need, it is just very expensive.

Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: broncodriver99 on July 09, 2018, 01:13:27 AM
CFC's were the first to be banned and are the ones that have been attributed with causing damage to the ozone layer. It was found that the chlorine atoms were the culprit. They were replaced with HCFC's(R-22 being one) which have a lower ozone depletion potential but still have a high potential as a greenhouse gas. HCFC's have been replaced with HFC's(R-134a, R-404a, R-410A). HFC's have almost zero ozone depletion potential but have a high greenhouse gas potential. Most HFC's have a higher greenhouse gas value than R-22. HFC's also take much longer to break down in the atmosphere than HCFC's so their greenhouse potential sticks around longer. Now there is a big push to replace HFC's with HC (hydrocarbon) refrigerants, R-290 is the most widely used and is what most manufacturers are shifting to as a replacement for R-134a. R-290 is a high grade of propane. It has been in use for a long time in specialty equipment but is now becoming the standard in consumer appliances and small systems with a small refrigerant charge and therefore explosion risk is minimal.

A big problem with HFC's is that many are zeotropic meaning the compounds within the blend have different boiling points(called glide) and different leak rates. If a system using a zeotropic refrigerant suffers a leak and only part of the charge is lost the remaining refrigerant must be recovered and sent off for destruction and virgin refrigerant must be used to recharge the system. If one "tops" off the charge the pressures and temperatures become skewed and the equipment will likely not operate correctly.

Another big problem with HFC's is the oil that is required. They use a very high grade of POE oil that is extremely sensitive to moisture. It also has a tendency to plate out forming a powdery substance that blocks capillary tubes and TXV's when exposed to high condensing temperatures. This usually burns the compressor up causing a piece of equipment to end up in the landfill. R-410a has the added problem of running very high discharge pressure. There are a lot of leak failures in R-410a equipment and all of the major manufacturers have had a hard time with ruptured coils. So, even though R-410a might be marginally better for the atmosphere much more of it is making it's way into the atmosphere due to leaking equipment because of the higher pressures.

I can say that equipment using CFC's and HCFC's seems to last longer with much less repair being required. Some of this may be due in part to the recent onslaught of cheaply built imported equipment but the inherent problems with HFC's definitely cause a lot more service problems than CFC's and HCFC's ever had. The question is, is the environment better off with refrigerants that are marginally better for the atmosphere but have inherent problems that cause a lot of equipment to be land filled prematurely due to failure? If you add in the energy and resources used to manufacture equipment to replace the large numbers that fail prematurely are HFC's really better for the environment?

It will be interesting to see how the HC's do. One advantage to the new HC refrigerants is that manufacturers can return to using mineral oil like CFC and HCFC systems and get away from POE oil and it's issues. I would like to see a lot more large scale systems going back to ammonia chiller systems as they are extremely efficient and ammonia being naturally occurring has near zero effect on the atmosphere.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: glort on July 09, 2018, 01:31:06 AM
I have been running ordinary LPG in my aircon for 3-4 years now and it works great.  The AC has never been colder and That's fact not wishful thinking.
The new gasses are glorified LPG that's supposedly better filtered and de watered.  How much or if it's even needed I don't know but I guess if nothing else it's a good justification for the 10X higher price and to deter people doing what I did and undermining the vehicle AC servicing industry.

I really don't get the complaints about the gas being flammable as a danger in vehicles.  The Gas charge would be around 200G with LPG, about the same as one of those disposable canisters. Why the hell people would be worried about that when there is 50-100L of petrol under their backsides I have no ideal.
In the case of a gas leak in an accident the gas will dissipate far more quickly than a petrol spill and certainly diesel. If it does light it will burn off in seconds and not have enough heat to set anything else on fire.  More like a flash of flame than anything like a sustained burn. LPG based refrigerants have been used over 10 years on hundreds of thousands of cars and in a survey some years back on 500K I think it as vehicle accidents in cars that used LPG based refrigerant in their AC, not ONE had caused a fire. there were many cases where the fuel tanks had ruptured and caused fires or death.
 Those odds are good enough for me.

Sospe you also have to look at the accident. Not every collision is front on. Get hit at the back or sides by a fast moving semi and your AC catching fire is a very long way down the list on your concern priorities.

To be worried about gas in the AC is a totally irrational fear IMHO. even if you are driving an EV, i'd still be worried more about a ruptured battery pack and the gasses or fire that could cause.

I think most people have a bit of an irrational fear of gas anyway because it's under pressure and makes a noise when released. The fact is though it has nothing like the flamability or energy of petrol and in my book is inherently safer.  I'll light burners with gas going directly in and run them on it.
You won't catch me with petrol anywhere near anything I'm playing with like that.

I have done enough real world hand on mucking around to learn well and truly what a wise person avoids in order to not be a Darwin award Candidate.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on July 09, 2018, 06:26:59 AM
Thanks for the explaination on developments in HC, HCFC's, etc, broncodriver. Much appreciated.  Given the alternatives I agree that HC looks the way to go.  Are you familiar with lithium bromide refrigeration systems?  They have been used for solar (non-PV) driven refrigeration on commercial scale but not residential.  I read an article mentioning some technical challenges with corrosion and materials compatibility.  It seemed like a good solution for building cooling for the lower deserts of AZ...but has not caught on, and I wondered why.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: broncodriver99 on July 09, 2018, 03:45:57 PM
Are you familiar with lithium bromide refrigeration systems?  They have been used for solar (non-PV) driven refrigeration on commercial scale but not residential.  I read an article mentioning some technical challenges with corrosion and materials compatibility.  It seemed like a good solution for building cooling for the lower deserts of AZ...but has not caught on, and I wondered why.

Yes, they are an absorption type system and have been around since the 1950's. Lithium Bromide is an alternative to the Ammonia/Hydrogen absorption process. Absorption systems are Very interesting as they use waste heat or collected heat to generate a cooling process. The RV refrigerator is an example of an absorption system though it uses ammonia, hydrogen, and water. The lithium bromide "brine" that is used in the absorption process is very corrosive and requires a lot of maintenance to maintain proper operation. There is some new development going on with absorption systems but unless one has a lot of waste heat on hand they aren't practical as the compression refrigeration system is much cheaper and more efficient. There used to be a lot of "gas" powered air conditioning systems in the mid-west and on the west coast. They were absorption systems powered by NG/LPG. They were handy where electricity prices were higher than gas prices or electrical service was limited.  The company that made them halted production sometime in the '80's. One reason absorption systems may be slow to catch on in the desert is that most systems over a few tons of capacity are water cooled.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: BruceM on July 09, 2018, 04:29:47 PM
I  recall that the lithium bromide systems could operate on lower temperatures- so that a solar hot water loop with say 85% efficiency panels could be used instead of PV (16%).  The Audobon Debs Park building outside LA uses lithium bromide/solar hot water system for cooling; it uses 200 degree F water to operate.

I have a propane/ammonia  operated refrigerator/freezer. It takes a big burden off my battery bank. I modified it to be sealed combustion.  The complete absence of noise is blissful.  I just wish it was dual heat source so it could be PV heated during the day.  It uses about $15/mo worth of propane.  It's in a separate gas kitchen with good outdoor cross ventilation via windows. The gas kitchen is insulated from the rest of the house, so the waste heat doesn't heat the house in summer.  In the winter it heats that room.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on July 09, 2018, 06:04:21 PM
Looked it up , excellent reading and very enlightening. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: buickanddeere on July 09, 2018, 06:07:55 PM
CO2 only makes up .1% to .2% of all the combined greenhouse gases . 300, 600 or 900ppm is not going to make a flea phart’s difference  in a wind storm. 
  If worried about iceberg calving off Antiartica . Have a look at the unprecentes volcanic activity occurring under the icesheet.
Title: Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
Post by: broncodriver99 on July 09, 2018, 06:57:28 PM
........