Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Original Lister Cs Engines => Topic started by: ajaffa1 on December 03, 2017, 01:24:47 AM
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G`Day all from down under. (Northern NSW, Australia)
I have been a member for quite some time but have never posted before. A few years back I purchased a Lister ST2 SOM in very neglected condition. With a lot of help and parts from Gary at Diesel Electric she now provides back up for our home.
Last year I had a very serious car accident and have been undergoing rehabilitation ever since. In a slightly mad attempt to speed up this process I bought a Lister CS 6/1 yesterday. Serial number 1510616 (1956) crankcase casting number 25 A 56 so January 1956 I believe. Four years older than me.
It is my plan to restore this to as new condition and add a three phase generator head to power my workshop machines.
The CS is missing a fuel tank, cooling system, inlet manifold and filter, exhaust silencer and push rod. I will have to strip every part of this and examine them to compile a list of required spares. For now all I plan to do is cover everything in penetrating oil and let it soak in for a while.
I will post some pictures as I go and all advice will be very much appreciated
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Awesome. Its the best way to disengage from reality and relax in another world. It will exercise you physically, improve coordination etc, and more importantly distract you from any nagging pain. Once completed, sitting down close and watching it run is akin to relaxing on a deserted beach, watching the lazy waves of the ocean breaking on shore.
I could drift off to sleep listening to mine....
Good luck with the healing process.....
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Very nice! I just pulled 10 units out of storage today and most of them looked like your photo or worse. It maybe too ambitious but I intend to get on with the restoration on these old beauties this winter - mass production style.
dieselgman
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Thanks starfire and dieselgman for the encouragement, doubt I would be undertaking this without this forum.
I am going to struggle with just one such engine, 10 is probably masochistic, good luck. do you expect to get ten running or cannibalise some to produce maybe 7 good ones?
A couple of early observations on my engine: 1. having removed gib key cover(1 missing) I note that the gib keys are numbered to match the corresponding fly wheel. I have to assume some level of individual fitting was employed, probably involving a file and some engineers blue. 2.Wear on the crankshaft from the starting handle is normally on the number one side allowing a person to use their right hand for cranking before using the left to disengage the decompression lever. On mine the wear is on the number two side suggesting that the previous owner was left handed. 3. No discernible play or end float in the crankshaft. Crankshaft is not seized but I will refrain from attempting to turn her over until I have investigated the condition of the cam shaft and idler.
Just a thought, has anyone tried driving an air conditioner with one of these? Temperatures here are set to soar to 50 degrees this summer.
They say that laughter is the best medicine, my wife is feeling great laughing at her stupid husband. I am hoping to have the last laugh when the CS fires up.
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Well it seems that you have learned a very valuable lesson, "never give up!".
I am sure that you will persevere and get the old girl running.
Ron in TN.
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Why not?
Plod along, no rush, take your time, chill out, and you'll have something occupying your brain along with a reason to get a couple of the lads around to give you a lift with the heavy bits whilst sinking a few beers in the shed.
Don't know much about direct drive but there's got to be an old unit from a 'reefer' container that would make a good starting point.
Do Well
Stef
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Thanks Ron and Stef, just finished for the day. "No surrender" was the moto for the Irish Republican Army, while I don`t endorse their policies or methods you have to love their determination and enthusiasm and I am trying to embrace both.
Doctors tell me I should take it easy as I broke my neck twice, bust my sternum and ribs and followed it all up with a heart attack. What a load of BS, I can sit around waiting for a word with God or I can get on and try to be productive.
Today was the best I have had in twelve months. I am excited by what I am trying to do and have already learned a lot. Love the idea about a cooler unit from a refrigerated container. if I did that the wife might think I was doing something useful.
So how did I get on today?
1. I hit everything with penetrating oil.
2. Removed water pipes, exhaust manifold &etc.
3. Removed rocker cover & rocker arm assembly.
4. Removed Fuel injector and pipes.
5. Removed fuel filter and pipes to injector pump.
6. Removed COV.
7. Removed cylinder head.
8. Remove water jacket access covers from cylinder.
9. Drained sump
Observations so far:
Cylinder head has been home to a family of mice, long gone, only to be replaced by a live red back spider (nasty toxic beasty) which is now an ex arachnid (no machinery was damaged during this extermination)
Some Muppet with a large hammer and a small brain decided the best way to free seized valves (due to lack of maintenance) is to beat the sh1t out of them. Picture of deformed rocker attached.
Cylinder bore badly worn, Listard chrome finish damaged and severe corrosion due to water contamination.
Sump filled with some primordial slime that appears to be a mixture of crude oil and sewage.
Information required as to best re-bore, fit high chrome/steel liner with soft piston rings or rebore and use oversize piston with high chrome rings?
I need a supply for Whitworth studs and nuts in Australia any info welcome.
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I need a supply for Whitworth studs and nuts in Australia any info welcome.
Try this guy for parts. I have never dealt with him but other members here have posted up good experiences. https://www.oldtimerengines.com.au/
There are also sources in the UK and USA.
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I need a supply for Whitworth studs and nuts in Australia any info welcome.
Try this guy for parts. I have never dealt with him but other members here have posted up good experiences. https://www.oldtimerengines.com.au/
There are also sources in the UK and USA.
Hey Jaffa. I'm in NZ and have bought lots of CS bits off Rob at OldTimerEngines. He's great. Can't recommend him highly enough
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Hey mate,
Rob has most things, and second hand parts too, and Gary (Dieselgman) can get you parts from the US, and they take bugger all time to arrive.
Samo
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The beating on the rocker thing is something that farmers did to reseat the valves, either carbon buildup with long runs of light loading, or valve seat rust through sitting for long periods.
Either prevented starting through low, or no compression, so a few "taps" on the rockers fixed this, and over time they developed that time worn "mushroom" look.
All Lister owners knew these little tricks.
I have always prevented this problem by narrowing the valve seats to increase the seating pressure without resorting to heavier valve springs, especially on the intake valve, these suffer the rust , exhaust valves suffer most with carbon, made worse when burning oil rather than diesel fuel.
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I guess I just need a lot of rehab!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qqF9yG0RBHozhQkbgdOz4BXvC1DPF9lbRQvOnJtWMJkZxjIWr3VjimgwspxSy_TVeRnwFHfQuxegwhQSfxPXZqN3nya8QOBvUs5qXuKEMqk3l9RR1bDP0OfjcCfUi5qfxIjFOyKo8-CbJWsXLx55IAFaU3ZQNq3O9GPq-AY4uRt0Dd3mKyvhBV-hz_mTFWPgPvvoo4CG289QbmEakH3lNNovH76rC51JCAJRN7usJWj9uPUbEFRNXVRtm7Xmk4lth_01cQh1fJuTbWmf9T4mIXim-_pORP1Lbp_pxIlCkHfWutATenzNeqit-VUY9rchcHiThqyjdrRjbc115zyFr91IOgnuj1nWUWCgc9QQB5AFDQFKYbR9evh3ZcBTbeAMdE1_gFlt3udbZrhFfR7l0o4daX8ENL96nJIbaKQq1c9WZzjOzL6LRyXcAyv-JvoFtL7nRw4ZOlIBO4hW2dkD3hX53ssskLVhIE7DnPaflGE7FvQgi3FLm1inIV6i-Nnc76-UebRF-hmO30TwJFFOVgt4_pcsTTiwOM9UX9Ud0fSrbriY3bizJ-Jch_r7FdWUoVdIRDzcJh61uVYLByBBSa4bKUYt53yBfJfBgXE46X0=w653-h870-no)
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Depending on where on's head is at, that photo is somewhere between a wet dream and a nightmare!
Cracking shot!
Stef
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Even though restoring my CS has been very cathartic for me I'm not quite sure what id think faced with that....😲
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Well guys, looks like we all need a bit of rehab except for dieselgman who appears to need help, if he doesn't need therapy now he soon will.
I had a real fun day:
Removed cylinder, badly worn/corroded.
Removed one gib key and fly wheel, came out easy. Wish I could say the same for the other one, broke my gib key puller. Made a tapered drift and warmed everything up, still no joy. More penetrating oil and will leave for a few days before trying again.
Removed piston and conrod. Main bearing shells badly worn down to the copper, crankshaft looks ok but will measure the journal to be sure. Anyone know if undersized bearings are available if it needs a regrind?
Managed to free up the fuel injector pump rack enough to disassemble the governor linkages. Any advice on decontaminating the injector pump?
Removed cam followers/tappet assembly, exhaust side has a lot of play, anyone know what the tolerances should be?
Just a couple of pics to prove the knackered old git is still having a go, No surrender.
Bob
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Nice rehabilitation project!
These engines all end up looking more or less the same after years of neglect - but I never grow tired watching them come back to life. Keep posting those updates.
Oh my word dieselgman... 10 engines... I feel like I need a break after doing just one :o ;D
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That liner will probably continue to serve if you want it to? As long as there's nothing "lippy" for rings to catch on? You gotta think "600 RPM" not "automotive" IMHO
You could certainly give it a scuff-up and put it back together and try? All that's lost is a couple hours work
Injector etc? Maybe throw the whole injector/linkage shit in a bucket of diesel and while it's soaking have a look on Old Timer Engines to see how cheap all that stuff is and just buy a new pump, lines, linkage & injector -then when you go to start it you will know all that stuff is good and when you get a solid, distinctive "CRINK" from the injector you'll know you are good
Just my $0.02
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I concur on the fuel injection stuff... both pumps and injectors readily available brand new MICO Bosch and their quality is good. The OEM pump does have a drilled shaft for the excess fuel (overload) pawl... maybe worth recovering an old pump for that feature.
dieselgman
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Spent about two weeks trying to bring my original pump back to life. Ended up just buying a new Bosch, works perfectly. It has a smaller inlet for the fuel so make sure you get the new pipe with it. I noticed it didnt have that pawl, but it doesnt seem to effect anything. What was it supposed to do?
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It forces the rack to full on, overfueling the engine for cold starting, rather like a choke in a carburettor. Very few owners use it.
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Ah got it. Never took notice of how the pawl fitted before i removed it to try to fix my pump. So the pawl was normally in the down position restricting movement and up for starting? Think I put mine back on upside down when i put it back together so it fell downwards. Couldnt work out how pushing it up and restricting the movement helped it to start, it was more like pushing it to the off position. Why doesnt the new pump use one?
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That picture at the start of the thread is a beauty !
Very nice unit.
(lister envy) :-\
Veggie
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That picture at the start of the thread is a beauty !
Very nice unit.
(lister envy) :-\
Veggie
Hope you are talking about the ST2 not the CS. looked like this when I got it(see photo). The reason it now looks ok is that dieselgman helped me find the parts. Don`t want to go into the cost but it probably explains why he has more than one CS to rebuild this winter. Only joking, prices were very reasonable.That liner will probably continue to serve if you want it to? As long as there's nothing "lippy" for rings to catch on? You gotta think "600 RPM" not "automotive" IMHO
You could certainly give it a scuff-up and put it back together and try? All that's lost is a couple hours work
Injector etc? Maybe throw the whole injector/linkage shit in a bucket of diesel and while it's soaking have a look on Old Timer Engines to see how cheap all that stuff is and just buy a new pump, lines, linkage & injector -then when you go to start it you will know all that stuff is good and when you get a solid, distinctive "CRINK" from the injector you'll know you are good
Just my $0.02
Thanks Mike, sadly it has a very profound lip. A re-bore to 20 thou might just about eliminate it. Still thinking about having it sleeved. Might be cheaper to import a new cylinder but have my doubts about the Indian Listeroid parts.
Think I`ll take your advice on fuel injection components: dump in a bath of diesel and leave for a long time. Its what I did with the ST2 and it worked a treat. I still had to replace the injector nozzles but everything else cleaned up real nice.I concur on the fuel injection stuff... both pumps and injectors readily available brand new MICO Bosch and their quality is good. The OEM pump does have a drilled shaft for the excess fuel (overload) pawl... maybe worth recovering an old pump for that feature.
dieselgman
Thanks dieselgman, where I live never drops below freezing so no problems with start up all year round.
Nice rehabilitation project!
These engines all end up looking more or less the same after years of neglect - but I never grow tired watching them come back to life. Keep posting those updates.
Oh my word dieselgman... 10 engines... I feel like I need a break after doing just one :o ;D
Thanks for the encouragement dieselsmoker. Read all of your posts on your rebuild. A lot of skills and innovations,
So how did the sick old git go today?
I managed to strip everything except the crankshaft and one flywheel. Managed to snap the head off the gib key, still no movement in the key. The crankshaft on this side has a lot of pitting from corrosion. Suspect that water has got into keyway and seized everything solid. Going to weld a length of 1/2 inch threaded bar to the remaining gib key and try to pull it off with a piece of tube 3 inch and 1/2 inch steel plate with a hole in it. Will post photos tomorrow. Could be some swearing if it don`t work. Anyone know how much heat I can safely put into the shaft and flywheel without damaging stuff?
I have a question regarding the profiles on the camshaft. The inlet/exhaust cam lobes are clean and nicely rounded, the cam lobe that drives the oil pump and injector pump has a different profile, looks worn to me(see photo) advice please.
Thanks guys
Bob
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hi Bob, yes I agree the profile looks wrong, no surprise as it's an area that gets little oil, well compared to the rest of the crankcase. in my 12/2 the governor pins and the cam follower wheels on the oil pump lifter were also very worn, I wouldn't be surprised if yours are similar....
Samo
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The fuel pump lobe has a completely different profile from the valve lobes... yours looks fairly normal from what I can see in your photo.
dieselgman
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Hi Guys, didn`t get as much done today as I had hoped.
hi Bob, yes I agree the profile looks wrong, no surprise as it's an area that gets little oil, well compared to the rest of the crankcase. in my 12/2 the governor pins and the cam follower wheels on the oil pump lifter were also very worn, I wouldn't be surprised if yours are similar....
Samo
Thanks Samo. the governor pins on mine are also worn(see photo), not as bad as yours. I haven`t measured them but think they have an original od of 1/4 inch. has anyone tried reaming the governors weights and camgear to take a slightly bigger pin. maybe with an increase in the lubrication hole? Any one know what these are made of, I was considering ordering some silver steel, cutting to length, drilling holes for split pins before hardening and tempering.
Cam follower bearing on mine looks ok but I will check it anyway. The fuel pump lobe has a completely different profile from the valve lobes... yours looks fairly normal from what I can see in your photo.
dieselgman
Thanks dieselgman, I have had a good look and they are very different. inlet and exhaust lobes look ok. anyone know what the lift should be? Are these lobes hardened steel that can be reground or are they disposable case hardened steel?
Jobs done today:
Failed miserably to tackle the stuck/broken gib key.No suitable welding rods.
managed to decontaminate and strip paint off head, cylinder block and it`s water jacket covers. Got a coat of primmer on them just to keep the heavy nigh time condensation here from causing corrosion.(Yes I know I shouldn`t be painting mating surfaces but I would rather scrape of paint than rust). See photos attached.
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I agree with your approach, make them out of silver steel and harden/temper. I'd only ream the weights and gear if the bore was sloppy, either that or bush it? With mine the pins were very worn, and I replaced the Cam gearwheel because it had broken teeth. The bore through the governor weights in my engine were still pretty good, because there's a lot more material to share the load. So in my case stock pins were good.
For my throttle linkages I made up silver steel pins, bored out the linkages from 3/16 to 5mm on account of the wear. Fiddly but now it's nice and smooth through the full range of travel.
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Quick way to repair clevis pins, worn elongated holes etc , bronze them up and redrill.
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Y'know Jaffa, IMHO I'd give the Indian parts a go . . .
They are agricultural but the machine is agricultural. I have an Indian head on my CS and I feel OK about it.
There are many quality issues with the Indian engines but I think there may be a consensus here that their export parts are better? And, I suspect most of the probs with Indian motors are fixed by good set-up not by dealing with deficiencies in the components so much
The basic architecture of the machines and their low RPMs makes them very tolerant
I looked into boring/sleeving my cylinder and i suspect NZ/Oz situations might be similar with machine shops etc etc? It was gonna cost around $400-ish to bore, press in a sleeve, re-machine bore to suit piston-plus-clearance etc. That would have left me with a cast sleeve, necessitating different rings. In the end I said to myself "It was going OK before so it will probably continue to go OK" and it has to date. I bought another whole CS for $500 so that gives me options
Also, FWIW I like the look of the new injector/pump components I have bought off Rob and. although the linkage bits look crude, they are cheap-as-chips and i think they can be made to serve well once minus all the green paint and set up OK
Just my $0.02
Also, FWIW I have heard of folks making a bit of a "weir" of plasticine or similar around the perimieter of the broken gib key to allow them to make a "puddle" of INOX or other preferred penetrating oil above the level of the top of the key, and leaving it to work its way through over time and topping-up as required. Personally I have found gentle heat and then penetrating oil after it has cooled right down to often be successful as I think the heat encourages a minor differential expansion/contraction of the different metals of the cast wheel, the steel Gib key and the rust/oxides in between/around them. I also reckon, again FWIW, that heat from a MAPP gas torch or similar is pretty safe as it takes a lot to heat up he hub area of one of those wheels
Good luck
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I agree with your approach, make them out of silver steel and harden/temper. I'd only ream the weights and gear if the bore was sloppy, either that or bush it? With mine the pins were very worn, and I replaced the Cam gearwheel because it had broken teeth. The bore through the governor weights in my engine were still pretty good, because there's a lot more material to share the load. So in my case stock pins were good.
For my throttle linkages I made up silver steel pins, bored out the linkages from 3/16 to 5mm on account of the wear. Fiddly but now it's nice and smooth through the full range of travel.
Thanks again Samo, taught I was on the right track. I will probably ream them out to 7mm the next readily available silver steel. Any idea how much clearance would be appropriate, I can buy reamers from China in increments of 0.1mm.
Quick way to repair clevis pins, worn elongated holes etc , bronze them up and redrill.
Thanks starfire, very ingenious approach any idea of the likely longevity of this approach. Brass and steel have been used as bearing surfaces for ever.
Y'know Jaffa, IMHO I'd give the Indian parts a go . . .
They are agricultural but the machine is agricultural. I have an Indian head on my CS and I feel OK about it.
There are many quality issues with the Indian engines but I think there may be a consensus here that their export parts are better? And, I suspect most of the probs with Indian motors are fixed by good set-up not by dealing with deficiencies in the components so much
The basic architecture of the machines and their low RPMs makes them very tolerant
I looked into boring/sleeving my cylinder and i suspect NZ/Oz situations might be similar with machine shops etc etc? It was gonna cost around $400-ish to bore, press in a sleeve, re-machine bore to suit piston-plus-clearance etc. That would have left me with a cast sleeve, necessitating different rings. In the end I said to myself "It was going OK before so it will probably continue to go OK" and it has to date. I bought another whole CS for $500 so that gives me options
Also, FWIW I like the look of the new injector/pump components I have bought off Rob and. although the linkage bits look crude, they are cheap-as-chips and i think they can be made to serve well once minus all the green paint and set up OK
Just my $0.02
Also, FWIW I have heard of folks making a bit of a "weir" of plasticine or similar around the perimieter of the broken gib key to allow them to make a "puddle" of INOX or other preferred penetrating oil above the level of the top of the key, and leaving it to work its way through over time and topping-up as required. Personally I have found gentle heat and then penetrating oil after it has cooled right down to often be successful as I think the heat encourages a minor differential expansion/contraction of the different metals of the cast wheel, the steel Gib key and the rust/oxides in between/around them. I also reckon, again FWIW, that heat from a MAPP gas torch or similar is pretty safe as it takes a lot to heat up he hub area of one of those wheels
Good luck
Thank you so much Mike, What are the listeroid bores made of? Do they have a high chrome liner so I can use original piston ?(will replace rings) I can always mothball the original cylinder to appease my conscience.
With regards to stuck gib key, I have jacked up that side of the engine and filled the key-way with WD40 I hope it will work it`s way in. Going to pick up welding rods in the morning. Hoping the heat from arc welding a 12 mm stud-rod to the broken key will free things up. I will post photos of the method used in the hope that it mat assist others in the same predicament.
I have checked out the old timer engine website and I have to say that Rob seems to be a very useful mammal to know. I will be contacting him next week with a list of parts.
Bob
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Maybe a help or not, but there is a guy in Aust, South QLD or Nth NSW (cant remember) who sells Listeroid parts etc. He's retired now but still has many parts in stock and import contacts. I can get you his details if you like.
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Stephen from Oz Listeroids? That's where I got my JKSon Listeroid from. The site is still active
http://www.ozlisteroids.com
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Y'know Jaffa I'm sure I remember welding to key-syeel and having it fail? Getting old and the memory-retrieval ain't what it used to be. If you warmed up the stub of the key and used an RSP electrode maybe? '
I'll be interested to see how that turns out as I have a snapped-off Gib on the crank of an old 3/1 I need to get out one day
Cheers
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Yep, stephen from Oz Listeroids. Helped me out with a few bits.
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Thanks to all for suggesting Oz listeroids. I was aware of Stephen. he is based in Woolgoolga just north of Coffs Harbour. I believe he is retired now but he emailed me list of parts with prices 6 months ago.
Y'know Jaffa I'm sure I remember welding to key-syeel and having it fail? Getting old and the memory-retrieval ain't what it used to be. If you warmed up the stub of the key and used an RSP electrode maybe? '
I'll be interested to see how that turns out as I have a snapped-off Gib on the crank of an old 3/1 I need to get out one day
Cheers
Thanks Mike, yes you are right it is asking for trouble to weld different grades of steel to one another, however very often the heat from the welding process is sufficient to shock the gib key out of it`s hole. Please see photos and explanations below.
Well. back to How it`s going. Sadly didn`t do much yesterday, had to go for a psychiatric assessment as part of my rehabilitation. Spent two hours with the guy discussing the merits of old iron. He will probably tell the insurance company that I took a much harder hit to my head than they thought. This morning was wasted on an occupational therapist that is so busy she can only see me for 45 minutes every 2 months. Whinge over, had a great afternoon:
Tackled the issue of the stuck/broken gib key. Welded a length of 12mm stud rod to the remaining key. Cut up an old tin can to protect the crankshaft from weld spatter. Improvised a puller out of some steel tube and steel bar(see photos). Worked a treat but not first time, managed to snap the stud rod first time. Worked like a charm the second time. Key is out! :)
Removed flywheel after a quick clean up of the shaft. Crankshaft looks good, no noticeable wear or corrosion to main bearing journals; less than 1 thou wear in the big end journal.(happy as a pig in sh1t)
Started the horrible job of cleaning out the crankcase, flushed out with Kerosene followed by degreaser and a pressure washer, No go, hardly touched the crap in there. Had to resort to a hammer and chisel to remove the gunk. I believe that this engine was probably used in the processing of sugar cane and over the last 60plus years it has caramelised onto the inside of the crankcase.(not so happy, more hard work)
Oil lines are similarly choked with something resembling toffee, how the main bearings survived without lubrication is a mystery and testament to the robust nature of these old engines. How long would a modern engine last with no oil pressure?
Looking forward to having that crankcase clean tomorrow.
Bob.
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Nice work on the welded threaded rod puller!
I hope your own recovery proceeds with the good pace of your Lister restoration.
Thanks for sharing your progress photos.
Bruce
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Good progress Bob! i think your ingenuity could evolve into a new style of gib key puller, you'd just need to modify the welded end to a sturdy hook/eye to reliably grab the key end. it would have some advantages over the collar approach that I currently use. I've had trouble with key gib ends that sit too high for the collar to slip over.
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Nice work on the welded threaded rod puller!
I hope your own recovery proceeds with the good pace of your Lister restoration.
Thanks for sharing your progress photos.
Bruce
Thanks Bruce for the encouragement and get well wishes. I`m going ok and will keep posting.
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Good progress Bob! i think your ingenuity could evolve into a new style of gib key puller, you'd just need to modify the welded end to a sturdy hook/eye to reliably grab the key end. it would have some advantages over the collar approach that I currently use. I've had trouble with key gib ends that sit too high for the collar to slip over.
Thanks Samo, glad you like it, worked in sawmills for a while, badly corrosive environment with lots of seized gib keys on shafts up to 150mm diameter, had to improvise a lot.
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The old git went well today. Got very dirty and banned from the house by the wife.
Managed to clean crap out of crankcase, it now looks like this:
Very disappointed to find a 2 inch crack in crankcase, I suspect that some f*ckwit bolted it down without the correct shims in place. I will try to braze it tomorrow unless someone here has a better suggestion.
There has been a lot of talk about the casting sand found in a lot of the Indian Listeroid engine, I found casting sand in the crankcase of my original Lister Cs.(see photo) I know it is blasphemy to question the skills of the foundry men who built these, so I guess the apprentice was having an off day. All covered in red oxide paint so not free to contaminate bearings & etc.
I mentioned yesterday that the oil strainer and oil feed pipes were clogged with something resembling toffee.(see photo)Could be that sugar cane/sugar has some lubricating properties we have missed.
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Vee that crack viciously with an angle grinder, LOTS of heat and bronze it.
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Vee that crack viciously with an angle grinder, LOTS of heat and bronze it.
Right, that crack doesn't look that threatening at all. I would also drill a small relief hole at the very top end of the thing to reduce the tendency it may have to spread further.
dieselgman
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The old git went well today. Got very dirty and banned from the house by the wife.
Managed to clean crap out of crankcase, it now looks like this:
...
I mentioned yesterday that the oil strainer and oil feed pipes were clogged with something resembling toffee.(see photo)Could be that sugar cane/sugar has some lubricating properties we have missed.
All that black sludge is present in most all of the older examples of this engine I have dealt with. I have seen gelled oil as well... almost impossible to remove with common solvents. Yours is looking good!
dieselgman
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Mine had the same goo in it. Nasty stuff. I found some industrial concrete cleaner/degreaser with 2 pages of warning labels that cut most of it out. The rest I scrubbed out with kerosene. I was covered from head to toes with it as well.
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Ah the joys of cleaning the crankcase. Went through about three sets of overalls that i just ended up throwing out rather than even attemp to clean. Made the mistake of putting them in the washing machine once before. For the next few days everything else that went through stank of diesel. Wife wasnt happy. Dont know how many boxes of rubber gloves i went through or cans of solvent and degreaser and a good few litres of diesel.
Now i have just bought a Bamford to restore so the joy starts all over again!
Looking good so far ajaffa1, and good luck with the rest of it and the rehab.
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Vee that crack viciously with an angle grinder, LOTS of heat and bronze it.
Thanks Starfire, one of my neighbours is a blacksmith. I`ll be paying him a visit later. Not sure how I`m going to lift that crankcase into the back of the car.
I like Dieselgmans suggestion to drill a relief hole at the top of the crack to stop it spreading, I`m thinking 1/8" hole that can easily be filled with bronze.
The Gunk in the crankcase and etc. dissolves well in a mixture of diggers degreaser and caustic soda. Used it before, nasty stuff that will burn the skin off you and even dissolve finger nails. Take precautions and don`t get a hole in your rubber gloves!
One great advantage of caustic soda is that it dissolves paint as well as grease.
Thankfully that is not another crack, just a bad casting mark that has been very badly fettled. Think they probably had to fire the apprentice.
I`m in two minds about brass serial number plate, should I remove it before painting or just mask it and paint round it?
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... Not sure how I`m going to lift that crankcase into the back of the car.
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I`m in two minds about brass serial number plate, should I remove it before painting or just mask it and paint round it?
How to get it in the car? One inch at a time.... :laugh: Obviously, the answer will depend, to a degree, on what equipment you have available, how strong you are etc. I'd be tempted to make a ramp up to your tailgate (assuming this is an estate/hatch car, not a saloon!), and slide/walk it up. The crankcase, sans all the mechanical bits, shouldn't be too bad to manhandle about. If you're worried about sliding, nail a few 1/2" battens across your ramp to rest the engine on every couple of feet.
Re the brass plate; it's easy enough to mask off, if the rivets are in good condition, that's what I'd do.
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Thanks Basewindow, developing a good collection of dirty clothing and matching dirty looks from the wife.
Looking forward to seeing the Bamford rebuild. I note that you own a 1962 Fordson Dexta. I used to drive one of those on a farm when I was a kid. Had to start it on petrol before swapping over to Kero, if my memory serves me right.
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Thanks AdeV, I`ve got a block and tackle but I`m worried about getting enough swing on it to lower the crankcase into the back of the wife`s 4x4. Don`t want to chip the paint she`d kill me.
Bob
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Just remembered an old trick we used to use in the Air Force for repairing cracked cast iron cylinder heads. Drill out the crack, tap a thread into the hole, screw in a suitable bolt. Braze the whole lot in place and grind back. Used to work ok in a bind. Not sure how I would apply this to a 2" crack, maybe one at either end and one in the middle would increase surface are for bronze to hold to. Any thoughts?
Bob
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Its a diesel super dexta (not much different from the earlier dexta, slightly more hp and different nose cone). Purchased it as a wreck from my neightbour and have bought it back to life. Works around the farm now ( not very hard) doing some slashing, grading, and lugging things around. Have a pulley bench saw for it as well but have never used it.
Its not the orginal colours but I like the red bonnet, nose and tank.
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Just remembered an old trick we used to use in the Air Force for repairing cracked cast iron cylinder heads. Drill out the crack, tap a thread into the hole, screw in a suitable bolt. Braze the whole lot in place and grind back. Used to work ok in a bind. Not sure how I would apply this to a 2" crack, maybe one at either end and one in the middle would increase surface are for bronze to hold to. Any thoughts?
If you've got the patience, you can drill/tap holes all along the crack; say M8 sized for example. grind flat & then drill/tap between the holes, screw in bits of rod, grind back & admire your new crack-free crank case. I'm not sure how easy this would be on the curved section of the casting. Personally, I'd be tempted to drill/tap/screw steel into the end of the crack, then vee it out and braze it. Other than the clamping forces if you bolt the engine down, it's not a structurally significant part of the casting, so it can afford to be a bit less than perfect IMHO.
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Be careful with the caustic around the Brass plate, it will dissolve it as fast as it takes grease off.
I'm with the Blacksmith trip, have him repair the crack, then heat it up, burn the stuff off, and then anneal / slow cool the crankcase. Cast iron wants a long slow cool down (2 days) for relieving stress, and the local heating from the welding will stress it for sure)
After it's all clean, you can use glyptal paint to seal the inside of the crack and keep all the oil inside.
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Nice thing about that crack... it does not pass into the internal (oil holding) section of the crankcase. Any repair to stop it from spreading will likely be just fine.
dieselgman
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I vote for drill, tap and "stitching" the crack also.
On a completely different tangent 'way off topic, (sorry ADD kicking in) is the USA the only place in the world where everyday people drive pickup trucks? I'm truly curious! I see UTE, Caravan and car, but I am clueless as to why no truck or pickup references, that seems to be a USA thing? I simply could not live without my pickups, I have two, a Dodge 3500 4x4 diesel and a Toyota Tundra with a V6.
Ron in TN.
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I own many trucks and drive a F150 every day. We have a luxury of very low fuel prices here in the US and plenty of utility vehicle choices... the pickup trucks don't get the best mileage but are plentiful and easy to use. I used to own a little Chevy HHR wagon with trailer hitch... worked almost just like a truck but delivered 30mpg when empty. I put on 100,000 miles in that heavy duty service. Fuel price did not jump to where it was anticipated to go, so time for a safer and better tool for the job - FORD makes a good one... many others of equal merit.
dieselgman
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Around here, there are two types of vehicles - pickups and targets.
I know, I drive a target...
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Once you own a pickup it's just very hard to live without one. The next couple of years should see the introduction of some pretty interesting electric ones. There'll be the F150s and the Edsels. I'm hoping for more along the line of the Bollinger B1.
And Thob is correct. Beat up old F150s just get more respect and road space than the Honda Civics and their sister ships.
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Nice thing about that crack... it does not pass into the internal (oil holding) section of the crankcase. Any repair to stop it from spreading will likely be just fine.
dieselgman
FWIW when I have had a crack like that to deal with I think in terms of (a) stopping it spreading further and (b) holding the cracked bits together
If you drill a wee hole (maybe 4 or 5mm) at the end, that should stop the crack creeping?
I have used arc welding with some success if it is done in quite a specific way (have repaired vices this way)
You need the right electrode, probably one with a fair bit of stainless in it, maybe? Your welding supplies will know
Vee out the crack at the bottom end - maybe not so much at the top
Put a small peening hammer to hand
Use the arc welder to make maybe a 20mm run and peen the crap out of the weld to expand it as it cools. The short run won't put enough heat into the casting to make it need cooling down?
Do maybe a couple of runs like that at the foot end of the crack. If that looks like "enough" grind it smooth and just fill the rest of gthe crack with something and paint.
This process doesn't put enough heat in to matter
Find some old cast scfrap and have a few "plays" and see what I mean
Just a suggestion
Cheers
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Hi Folks, haven`t posted for a couple of days, been crook (Oz for sick).Another round of visits to doctors, more expense, more time without work, no closer to a diagnosis. What a crock of sh1t. Got to go for another MRI scan more blood tests & etc.
Symptom: loss of feeling/numbness in hands and fingers shooting pains up my arms.
History: broken neck 12 months ago. Stiffness and pain ever since.
Doctors suggested diagnosis: celiacs disease, poisoning, alcoholism, vitamin deficiency, smoking.
Thank God none of these highly paid individuals service diesel vehicles or the entire Australian transport industry would grind to a halt.
Back to the main topic. Managed to haul my cracked crankcase to a series of engineering shops. Prices varied from $50 to over $200. Further conversation with these welding experts revealed that none of them planned to pre heat the casting, no annealing after welding, no peening of the weld, no facilities for a controlled cooling.
My crankcase is now back home. I have access to oxy-acetylene but no confidence to braze it myself. So I propose to do what I do know how to do, (an engineers solution). Today I ordered a pack of JB weld (very strong epoxy adhesive). I plan to make a 1/2" steel plate that I will fit to the back of the crack. I will grind and shape it to be as close a fit to the back of the cracked area as possible. I will drill a hole in each corner. I will then clamp it in place and drill through it into the crank case. I will tap the holes in the crankcase. I intend to score the steel plate and crankcase before applying JB weld and bolting. The following day, when everything has hardened, I will V-out the front of the crack and fill with JB weld.
This is not a perfect solution but requires no heat and should provide a lasting & invisible repair. I will post photos as I go.
Thank you Mikenash and Dieselgman, both of you suggested drilling a relief hole at the end of the crack to stop it spreading. I will be taking your good advice before proceeding with my repair.
I`m not sure how we got off Listers and onto the subject of pickup trucks but for what it`s worth, in Australia all pick up trucks are called utes. They come in all sizes and shapes and are all now made overseas mostly the USA, Taiwan and Japan.
Sadly the government felt that it was not economically viable to support a local motor vehicle industry here. So we now have to import all our vehicles and provide welfare to thousands of skilled people and their families. Way to go! The rich must get richer and the workers can go f*ck themselves. Who are the rich going to sell their products to when no one has a job?
Crook and cranky Bob.
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Drilling small holes to stop cracks spreading and getting out of hand is old, old tech.
Check out the female reproductive organs.........
Stef
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Hi Folks, haven`t posted for a couple of days, been crook (Oz for sick).Another round of visits to doctors, more expense, more time without work, no closer to a diagnosis. What a crock of sh1t. Got to go for another MRI scan more blood tests & etc.
Symptom: loss of feeling/numbness in hands and fingers shooting pains up my arms.
History: broken neck 12 months ago. Stiffness and pain ever since.
Doctors suggested diagnosis: celiacs disease, poisoning, alcoholism, vitamin deficiency, smoking.
Thank God none of these highly paid individuals service diesel vehicles or the entire Australian transport industry would grind to a halt.
Back to the main topic. Managed to haul my cracked crankcase to a series of engineering shops. Prices varied from $50 to over $200. Further conversation with these welding experts revealed that none of them planned to pre heat the casting, no annealing after welding, no peening of the weld, no facilities for a controlled cooling.
My crankcase is now back home. I have access to oxy-acetylene but no confidence to braze it myself. So I propose to do what I do know how to do, (an engineers solution). Today I ordered a pack of JB weld (very strong epoxy adhesive). I plan to make a 1/2" steel plate that I will fit to the back of the crack. I will grind and shape it to be as close a fit to the back of the cracked area as possible. I will drill a hole in each corner. I will then clamp it in place and drill through it into the crank case. I will tap the holes in the crankcase. I intend to score the steel plate and crankcase before applying JB weld and bolting. The following day, when everything has hardened, I will V-out the front of the crack and fill with JB weld.
This is not a perfect solution but requires no heat and should provide a lasting & invisible repair. I will post photos as I go.
Thank you Mikenash and Dieselgman, both of you suggested drilling a relief hole at the end of the crack to stop it spreading. I will be taking your good advice before proceeding with my repair.
I`m not sure how we got off Listers and onto the subject of pickup trucks but for what it`s worth, in Australia all pick up trucks are called utes. They come in all sizes and shapes and are all now made overseas mostly the USA, Taiwan and Japan.
Sadly the government felt that it was not economically viable to support a local motor vehicle industry here. So we now have to import all our vehicles and provide welfare to thousands of skilled people and their families. Way to go! The rich must get richer and the workers can go f*ck themselves. Who are the rich going to sell their products to when no one has a job?
Crook and cranky Bob.
I don't know if we have JB Weld here but American engineers seem to love it. Must be good stuff. I will watch with interest and hopefully learn something
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Doctors suggested diagnosis: ..... alcoholism, .......
Getting out and doing things is the best treatment for physical recovery. While I don't doubt the difficulties you face and the pain and frustration you suffer, You could still be worth off without any injury at all.
This looks a great project and I hope you keep us updated till it's completion.
Thank you so much Glort. It grieves me to know that you are also suffering health problems. You at least have found a doctor you trust. Every time I visit a GP I see someone I have never met before, so I have to spend most of my time explaining previous history leaving no time for diagnosis of problems
I will continue to post questions and progress reportsDoctors suggested diagnosis: ..... alcoholism, .......
That's a favourite fall back for doctors.
I have been Diabetic for a bout 10 years. Every time I have a blood test and a doctor who is not familiar with me and remembers will look at the results and tell me I have to cut down on drinking.
I'm lucky, as I point out with varying levels of contempt for the their Diagnosis, I'm lucky to have one drink a month.
When I have questioned the cause of the result that all makes them think I'm an alco, the usual response is to have another look at the test results and cross referencing them with other indicators, conclude that it's not actually drinking that's the problem but rather a side effect of the diabetes Meds!!
You are right, if they were doing other things with the "Suck it and see" and see methodology, there would be big trouble which is amazing seeing they are dealing with peoples health. Don't know how many things I have been given and told " Try these and we'll see how you go and if you have problems with them we'll try something else".
I saw a specialist about 3 weeks ago that cost me $400 for a 30 min consult. Told me 4 of the 5 last meds I had been put on I should have never been given and wanted to know who would do that.
The one Doc that I travel an hour to see because I have faith in him proved that was well placed. He was the only one that gave me the right stuff.
Getting out and doing things is the best treatment for physical recovery. While I don't doubt the difficulties you face and the pain and frustration you suffer, You could still be worth off without any injury at all.
This looks a great project and I hope you keep us updated till it's completion.
. Thanks Mike, I did the prep work today,(see photos). I believe that this gusset with JB Weld will stabilise the crack without resorting to welding and the dangers of cracking associated. Yes JB Weld is available here. about $13 on fleabay.Drilling small holes to stop cracks spreading and getting out of hand is old, old tech.
Check out the female reproductive organs.........
Stef
My experience of female reproductive organs is that they heal over in time, no need for welding. peening or heat treatment, Just time.
So few photos to show progress:
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I like your gusset solution plus the relief hole. The casting should be stable with that installed and tightened. The JB Weld is not something I would use on cast iron in that particular type of repair... but it surely will not hurt anything.
dieselgman
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G`day everyone, The JB Weld finally arrived today, so I have used it as a bonding agent/filler for the gusset I showed earlier.
I believe that this will produce a strong and lasting fix without having to resort to welding/brazing with the inherent danger of further cracking. See photos. Got to wait overnight for it to harden before finishing/painting.
I have used the time while waiting to continue with the cleaning process, I now have a bucket full of shiny nuts, bolts, washers, and assorted fittings.
All going to plan, will have to wait till new year to start ordering new parts.
Bob
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Looks like an excellent repair to me. I suspect you will want to avoid putting any excess stresses on that corner when you mount the unit.
dieselgman
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Thank you so much Glort. It grieves me to know that you are also suffering health problems.
Well you sure got that right. My problems are mental and grief related. I have never had any physical problems anything like what you have and I would have said a while back that mental problems were BS and all in a persons head..... till I got and suffered with them.
It's hard to get better when you don't care about anything, least of all yourself.
You sound like you have real motivation and drive and that's your biggest asset.
I looked after my father in law through cancer. He was incredible. He had to do these exercise as part of his rehab after being bed ridden for months.
the Phisio told him to do the exercises so many times a day and when he could do them easily, make another appointment and he'd show him the next lot.
If father had to do them 3 times a day, he did them 15. I had to help him and he'd no sooner do one lot, catch his breath and we were back at it.
After a few days he got me to ring the physio to make another appointment. Guy said must be doing them wrong, it should take him at least a week to get up to doing them properly, Bring him in and we'll see where he's going wrong.
Took him in, father reeled off a set and the guy was amazed. Told me I would have never thought he would be doing that. This went on several times.
Physio was in awe of him and said I can't understand how he's doing it. I said I can, he hates being sick and relying on other people. He'll get better or kill himself trying.
We went one day and the local first grade footy team were there who father idolised. The physio got father to come meet them and gave them a pep talk and said father left them all for dead in how hard he worked on his recovery and he was a real role model. After that, the physio would book father in whenever the bulldogs were coming in for their workouts and he trained with them which was a dream come true.
He went from hobbling along on on rail supports and a wheel chair to walking normally around the shops in less than a 1/5th of the time they predicted.
If you want to get better as you do, you will despite what the medicos tell you. The mind is the most powerful thing of all. In your case it's a real asset. Mine is the opposite. Physically I'm fine but there is more to incapacitation than the physical side. You have to make the most of what you have going for you and that's the determination you clearly have. There is no Physio, pills or anything else that can match that let alone outdo it. What they expect of you is always the Minimum. If you treat it as such and always exceed it as far as you can you will get better in a fraction of the time. I saw my father in law do it first hand.
I bought myself a 12/2 today with a gen head kind of thinking of this thread.
I have been told to do something I enjoy and find an interest I can stick with. I couldn't be bothered doing much past getting out of bed for a long time.
The solar thing I have been playing with is pretty much a goal reached now. i don't think there is much more I can learn with it and now it's on the roof doing what I want, all I can do is add some more panels to the system and enjoy the free power.
I have another roid I could play with but I want something that I can play with running rather than fixing. I wanted a gen head for the 6/1 but haven't found one in years of looking. This one came up, 600Km away and I thought stuff it, I'm going to try that one as some of my rehab. I'll do a road trip with the Mrs south near the Vic border and make a weekend away of it.
When I get it back I want to set it up in the shed and see if I can make it as nice as your ST. I have always had this thing about power independence and this will fill that nicely. I have other gennys but this one will be the icing on the cake. Promised the Mrs to offload some of the others to make room for this one. Might sell the 6/1 but I'll get rid of some of the China verticals I seem to have amassed first. From now on, water cooled engines only.
In two minds about my Merc engine. I won't need it but I have been talking about setting it up as a genny for years so I kind of want to complete that even if I offload the thing once it's done.
First thing to do will be clean the shed to make way for the thing. Still disorganised from moving in a few months ago. Mrs is partial to the new engine for the motivation to do that alone! :0)
I want to set this engine up in a multi configuration. I want it to be able to backfeed through the solar inverters if I want to play catch up and I want to put a transfer switch on the meter box so I can run the whole house off it. Not sure if I can wire the single phase gen head across all 3 phases but I can't see why not. Only the AC is 3 phase, everything else is single, so I won't be able to use the air but everything else should be fine. Might just be some creative wiring through the transfer but that will be something else to learn about.
I want to go north next year to Visit family and friends. Maybe I could call in and see your engines in the flesh?
I think it won't be long before this one is finished and you are running round all over the place like nothing ever happened!
Hey Glort. sorry to hear you are suffering black dog syndrome. I have had it myself(my father passed away and I walked in on my wife fu**ing the next door neighbour in the 1990s). The hardest thing for any man to do is acknowledge that they have a problem. Men are supposed to be tough and anything less is considered weakness. What a crock of sh1t! I was lucky, I spoke to my boss at the time and he phoned my Brother, that night I tried to take my own life. I failed(just another in a long line of personal failures). I was collected from the local hospital by my Brother and delivered to the Priory Hospital in London. I spent six weeks as an in patient and twelve months as an out patient, I underwent a lot of therapy. I am very glad that I did. When I had my accident, and was disabled for months on end, the lessons I learned in therapy kept me sane.
So, you have already taken the first step towards recovery by admitting that you have a problem. Well done!
The next step is to seek out and find the help that works for you, even if it scares the sh1t out of you.
One of the things that my Psychiatrist told me was to think back to when I was 18 years old and imagine that I had a pile of pennies six foot tall, for everything good that happens add one penny to the pile, for everything bad that happens take one penny away. When you run out of pennies it`s game over. Time to start stacking up those pennies.
My father told me that life is short and the way to a happy life is to find out what you like and then make sure you get plenty of it. Sounds selfish but still very sound advice.
I am very glad to here you have followed me in using your obvious mechanical abilities as a form of rehabilitation, I hope it takes your mind away from grieving and to a happier place. I look forward to seeing future posts of positive progress on the 12/2 and your own state of mind.
If you and the Mrs are out and about near Grafton NSW I would love to meet you, please send me a PM.
Bob
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A quick update on progress. Hotter than hell here today so a good day for painting. Sadly I was running out of red oxide primmer, I had a full can of grey primmer and considered mixing the two but thought better of it when I realised that posting photos of a CS painted pink would probably get me banned from the forum as a demented, homosexual communist.
So one coat of red, one coat of grey followed by two coats of Brunswick green all hand painted in a day. These are all oil based and each coat was touch dry before the next coat, might give you some idea of how hot it is here. I`ll give her one more coat of BG before assembly and touch up as required after.
Bob
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a demented, homosexual communist.
I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be the weirdest thing we've seen around these parts.....
Superb work on that engine BTW. At the rate you're going, you're going to need a collection of them to keep the rehab going. And I guess no-one will be complaining about that! :laugh:
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Will that red oxide oil based paint survive inside the crankcase with tepid motor oil sloshing around ?
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This is going to be one smick looking engine!
Was 44 today on the outskirts of " Sidiney". Funny you mention painting, I pulled out the paint I bought about 6 weeks ago to do the bedroom feature wall tomorrow. Too damn hot to go outside!
I would love to call in for a visit. I always stop at Grafton on the way up to the Goldie at the strangest maccas I have ever seen.
Hey Glort, feel free to drop in any time, please just PM me first so I know to tidy up, wouldn`t want you to find me too drunk or dirty. There is a more normal Maccas in town at shopping world.
Good luck with the decorating, personally I hate decorating don`t have the patience to watch paint dry and moving all the furniture about, bug*er that.
No surrender,a demented, homosexual communist.
I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be the weirdest thing we've seen around these parts.....
Superb work on that engine BTW. At the rate you're going, you're going to need a collection of them to keep the rehab going. And I guess no-one will be complaining about that! :laugh:
Hi Ade, pink would just be too much, would have been funny though.
The rebuild is going ok but will slow down over xmas/new year. I`ve got an ever growing list of parts I need and can`t order them till January. I`ve also got to think about where to mount the engine so the noise won`t drive the wife mad. I`d like to come up with a plan to make it mobile and possibly take it to the local show.
Just in case I run out of rehab projects I know where there is a similar sized Southern Cross air cooled diesel and a Lister L, both in need of renovation. I have also got a lead on a 3.75Kva generator head of the same age as the CS. Don`t tell Glort, he`s been looking for one for ages.
Bob
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Will that red oxide oil based paint survive inside the crankcase with tepid motor oil sloshing around ?
Hi Mike, yes I checked with the manufacturer, It`s epoxy based and should be fine, it also has three coats of epoxy enamel over the top. Worked ok in my ST2 for the last two years.
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Will that red oxide oil based paint survive inside the crankcase with tepid motor oil sloshing around ?
Hi Mike, yes I checked with the manufacturer, It`s epoxy based and should be fine, it also has three coats of epoxy enamel over the top. Worked ok in my ST2 for the last two years.
I know where there is a similar sized Southern Cross air cooled diesel and a Lister L, both in need of renovation. I have also got a lead on a 3.75Kva generator head of the same age as the CS. Don`t tell Glort, he`s been looking for one for ages.
Bob
Forget the gen head, I want the southern Cross!
What more Aussie engine could you have than that? Is it a YB? they seemed popular.
Hey Glort, sorry I didn`t reply earlier. We had a mini cyclone come through here on Thursday evening. Power out. telephone blew up, trees down every where, roads blocked and flooded. Normal unpredictable Australian weather.
The old Lister ST2 ran like a charm but the residual current breaker didn`t like the water pump starting up, kept tripping out, had to bypass it. Wife had a fit at me for playing with electrics in the pouring rain.
Spent all day today cutting up fallen trees, should have enough firewood for several years.
That Southern Cross motor is an air cooled single cylinder painted light grey, probably an ETB, late 50 or early sixties at a guess. Don`t know if the guy would sell it, he did ask me if I would consider restoring it for him. It`s up north west of Brisbane.
Should have known you`d like that. Being a Pommie I just take it for granted that everyone likes old British stuff.
I`ve got a mate who goes all over NSW and QLD fitting solar systems for farmers. I`ve asked him to keep his eyes open for barn finds. I`ll let you know what he comes up with.
So to my CS rebuild, haven`t had much time but I did manage to strip the injector and pump. Injector cleaned up pretty good and is now in a jar of clean diesel until needed. The pump is toast, the rack is badly worn and the lugs on the element are snapped clean off. I guess It was left outside and someone decided to try to free the rack with a hammer.
So to questions: I can get a replacement Bosch pump for about A$90 or I could get a Bryce or CAV for three times that price any advantages in using the more expensive items?
Does anyone know the diameter of the holes in either end of the rack on a Bosch. is it the same as the originals? I`ve tried to measure what`s left of the connecting pins on the govern assembly but they are so corroded that they could be 3/16", 13/64"
or 5mm. I was planning to order some silver steel and make replacement pins myself. I don`t have a problem with reaming out some of the linkages and fitting bigger pins but that ain`t going to work for the rack It`s just too bloody hard.
I`m not expecting to get much in the way of response at this time of year, hope you`re are all too busy plucking Turkeys. eating mince pies and consuming industrial alcohol.
Merry Christmas to you all,
Bob
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I replaced my orginal pump on my cs with a Bosch unit. It only has holes on one end of the wrack so you cant use the excess fuel pawl. The inlet to the pump is smaller than the original banjo as well, so make sure you order a new pipe for between the pump and the filter if it doesn't come with one.
On the governor linkage side everything seemed to fit back together with original parts no problem.
Starts perfectly without the pawl, but I guess its not quite 'original'.
Cheers,
Cam.
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Cam is right about the banjo being a different size, I've had a couple of 'Indian' IP's and one is better than the other, no leaks. The second, non leaking, one was so full of some sort of preservative / assembly grease I had to strip it down and clean it out. What it was I've no idea but it wouldn't wash through with diesel.
I've nothing to compare performance with but my tin ear say's it's somewhere close to good enough!
I might be teaching you to suck eggs but when you set the timing wind the adjuster bolt down and work up, if it binds on over adjustment it'll be expensive.
Have a good one, one and all.
Cheers Stef
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Hey guys, Happy New Year to you all. I`ve been busy cutting up fallen trees for a week so no progress on the rebuild.
Found these two engines on gumtree the first is lister S?1 possibly startomatic the second is a southern cross I think. Both are in Northern New South Wales, should suit Glort if he`s coming up this way soon.
Bob
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don`t know what happened there, only posted one picture so here is the other.
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Could be SR1, maybe also LD or LR or SL as they all have quite similar outward appearances.
dieselgman
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Thanks guys for all the support, Haven`t been able to make much progress but have done a lot of cleaning and painting. I now have a bench covered in shiny new looking parts.
I examined the cylinder head and found that it has corroded/worn to about 30 thou in the piston compression area. Would it be safe to have thirty thou skimmed off it? I checked how far below the cylinder head the surfaces of the valve faces are and they are both around 100 thou, so skimming the head would bring them back within tolerance.
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Hi guys, Just in case you think I`ve been slacking off here is a photo of my crankcase dry assembled.
Bob
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Looks like proper one!
Nice job.
Stef
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Thanks Dieselspanner. Still hoping someone on the forum can tell me is it`s safe to skim 30 to 40 thou of the cylinder head. I should be able to shim up the cylinder to achieve a suitable bump clearance.
Bob
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Thanks Dieselspanner. Still hoping someone on the forum can tell me is it`s safe to skim 30 to 40 thou of the cylinder head. I should be able to shim up the cylinder to achieve a suitable bump clearance.
I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be safe - although that's quite a skim (nearly 1mm @ 40 thou). Does it really need that much? Main changes would be: Increased compression due to smaller combustion chamber; possibly you might need to recess the valves by a similar amount to avoid striking them with the piston, although IIRC the piston doesn't come that close to kissing the head in a Lister anyway? And again IIRC (haven't looked for a while), it's a flat head?
Skimming the top/bottom of the barrel would be better, if that cures your issue; the barrel can be shimmed with copper shims as appropriate.
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Ummmm no, not always, Compression only needs to be enough to cause ignition via the heat produced. Any more than this actually reduces power output, as much of the developed power is used to compress the next power stroke. My 3.5hp Lister is very much more capable when running with the COV out, and will struggle with the same fixed load when the COV is wound in. Unlike a petrol engine, the cylinder pressure is largely constant over the power stroke as fuel, and combustion continues as the injector squirts, fuel burns and is available over a longer time. The same high compression benefits are not so pronounced with a diesel. Turbocharging a diesel does produce more power, not because of any raised compression, but because there is more air to allow a longer burn.
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Any increase in compression is a good one.
Don't think the valves on these things are near an interference fit.
Bring the thing up to TDC and push down on a valve and see how much movement there is. Pretty sure even like that you'll get more than 1mm on these things.
Be careful about that valve clearance assumption when setting up a new engine and figuring your valve lash. On our 18/1 engines it is possible to hit the valves with the piston crown.
dieselgman
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Hi Guys, I put a straight edge across the surface of the head and measured the divot in the head at 30 thou, so a skim of 30 thou plus is inevitable. The valve heads are circa 100 thou below that so reducing the head surface would bring them back to circa 60 thou below the head surface, this would be well within tolerance and shouldn't cause interference with the piston.
I guess we will just have to try it and see what happens, I`ll let you know.
Bob
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Hi Guys, I put a straight edge across the surface of the head and measured the divot in the head at 30 thou, so a skim of 30 thou plus is inevitable. The valve heads are circa 100 thou below that so reducing the head surface would bring them back to circa 60 thou below the head surface, this would be well within tolerance and shouldn't cause interference with the piston.
I guess we will just have to try it and see what happens, I`ll let you know.
Bob
Is the divot in the gasket sealing surface? is there enough meat around it the gasket would still seal ? 30thou is pretty radical
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Hi Mike 90045.
Sadly the corrosion/wear has taken a chunk out of the gasket surface. It isn`t as bad as the 30 thou in the compression zone and could probably be removed with a 15 thou skim. I don`t know what this engine was run on but I suspect that something like hydraulic oil was used which would explain the excessive wear to the piston crown and head. It could just be that it`s done a lot of hours but the lack of wear on the crankshaft suggests otherwise.
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Hi Mike 90045.
Sadly the corrosion/wear has taken a chunk out of the gasket surface. It isn`t as bad as the 30 thou in the compression zone and could probably be removed with a 15 thou skim. I don`t know what this engine was run on but I suspect that something like hydraulic oil was used which would explain the excessive wear to the piston crown and head. It could just be that it`s done a lot of hours but the lack of wear on the crankshaft suggests otherwise.
Soft cast iron will really erode quickly under severe service, it also does not do very well with constant water contact. The OEM crankshaft journals will live well beyond the rest of the engine unless they are subjected to a lot of dirt in the oil or water contamination. I have built a lot of them up from units left out in the weather for decades... cylinders and heads almost always replaced - bottom ends usually survived with minimal damages. The quality of steel and hardening of original parts is of very high quality.
dieselgman
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Ajaffa1,
Beautiful job so far! Perfect choice for a rehab project. As Glort pointed out it's 99% mental and I'm sure you will be back to normal soon. One thing to keep in mind is nerve damage takes a very long time to heal. It's not something that is gone is a few weeks. A year or two would be an appropriate timeframe to expect. Having suffered a neck broken in multiple places, you could easily have suffered cord damage that will take much longer than expected to heal. It's a pain in the back side, but it is how it is. You might ask your doc about supplementing with vitamin B because the nerve sheaths are primarily made up of the stuff.
Regarding your Lister, what did you end up using to get the crankcase so clean? I have multiple old engine projects to tackle at some point so the knowledge would be very helpful.
Again, beautiful work!
Wishing you the very best in your recovery and an excellent 2018!
Kind regards,
Steve
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Sodium Hydroxide - common Lye. They use the stuff in hot tanks for cleaning diesel (and automotive) engine blocks. Just mix the powder with water and heat to about 180F. Immerse your block for a few hours, or overnight. It comes out nearly spotless, minus all oil/paint/loose contaminants. Just a little rinsing and drying is required after that.
dieselgman
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Hi Apogee, Dieselgman is right that a good soak in sodium hydroxide solution is the easiest. I sadly don`t have such a tank so I used a mixture of industrial degreaser and caustic soda, followed up with a pressure washer. Took a couple of goes to get it clean.
Bob
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G`Day Gentlemen and Women,
I am sorry I have stalled on my rebuild but doctors(and Wife`s) orders are not to be messed with. Stupid bugger decided not to treat the disk in my neck that is pressing on my spinal cord causing pain in hands and arms, instead he tried to treat the symptoms with Lyrica. For those who have never experienced this drug, it is used to treat epilepsy and nerve pain. You start with a dose of 25Mg per day and work up to 600Mg per day. It is addictive and causes mental instability, suicide and heart failure, it is a treatment of last resort. At a dose of 600Mg it is going to cost $50 per day. I wish I had a video of the look on my doctors face when I pointed out to him that I have already had one heart attack and am seeing a councillor for mental health issues and would rather have the pain than become a zombie.
So back to my build, I have decided that this CS will be coupled to a three phase head to provide power for a lathe and milling machine. I will have to build it a brick enclosure next to my ST2. When I built the enclosure for the ST2 I dug out a deep hole and poured a concrete slab at the bottom, I then used a 100Ltr plastic dustbin as a former and poured a reinforced concrete chamber. This was connected to 8 meters of 3" underground flexible ducting(also set in concrete) which runs down hill to an exhaust. I later cast a concrete slab over this chamber and my ST2 vents into it. (see photo) It is totally silent.
My question is this: would it be ok to rig the CS to vent into the same exhaust system or should I build a separate underground exhaust?
Bob
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I'm a fan of underground exhaust systems myself since we did one for my neighbor's propane converted DES 8/1. Zero exhaust pulse noise due to cooling of exhaust in the earth is a wonderful thing. We used the "leach field" type which also pretty much removes any exhaust odor as well.
My concern for a two engines in one earth exhaust system is the back-pressure and exhaust leaks in the non-running engine. It seems to me that if it is tight and well sealed at the joints (I use high temp silicone on all exhaust joints in the engine room.) , it should be OK. Designing in some sort of way to close off the exhaust to the other engine would be helpful for when one engine must be serviced. I'm not sure how I'd do that.
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Provide an open outlet port of greater diameter (lesser flow resistance) than the two incoming pipes and backflow should not be an issue.
dieselgman
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Provide an open outlet port of greater diameter (lesser flow resistance) than the two incoming pipes and backflow should not be an issue.
dieselgman
Thanks guys. is there a chance that when I am running one engine I will get soot or condensation building up in the other?
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Hey Glort, sounds like they put you on the same sh1t they tried to get me to take. Glad you`ve found something that works for you. Calm is good, tired is bearable, wasted is no fun at all.
I`m thinking about a couple of brass gate valves to separate the non running engine, I think they would easily cope with the heat.
I just scored a Southern Cross diesel engine for nothing. Better still they guy says he will deliver it to me for free. I`ll post a photo when it arrives. Yes I know this is the Lister Engine Forum but an Ozzy icon for free just has to be seen.
Bob
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I have some questions about crankshafts.
1. How much wear is too much wear on the pinion gear? (see photo)
2. The main journals appear to have no discernible wear but one is slightly pitted with rust. Is it serviceable?
3. How is the gear attached to the shaft? It looks like it was probably pressed on or shrunk in place rather than machined out of a single billet. If so could a replacement be found?
Perhaps I should just order a new shaft and know that I`ll get the hours out of it in the future.
Bob
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Sorry Glort, I know nothing more than it`s bloody heavy and the guy said he would have to set up his winch to get it onto his ute. I am as excited as you are to see it.
I know the local solar installer and I asked him to keep his eyes open for barn finds. I am now at capacity for old engines, so if I hear of any I will let you know.
Bob
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Been raining here most of the day so I`ve been trawling the internet looking for a replacement fuel injector pump. I would prefer to keep with CAV or Bryce.
The original damaged pump is a CAV BPF1B70CS6253. On the old engine data sheets this is listed as the correct CAV pump for a CS 6/1. The problem is that when I look at the Bryce data sheets it gives Bryce FBOAB070C6655 or BPF1B070CS6655.
Which is it BPF1B70CS6253 or BPF1B70CS6655?
I have found a Bryce FBOAB070C665_ for sale in the UK for £125. C6655 as opposed to C665 is this the correct pump?
Bob
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thanks guys. is there a chance that when I am running one engine I will get soot or condensation building up in the other?
When I finish a run with my 6/1, I rotate the flywheel till I hit compression, and that means the valves are closed and will help reduce condensation in the cylinder head. It should also prevent anything from backing up from the running engine
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Thanks Mike but I`m not sure how that would work with my ST twin if I was running the CS. The problem is that it is a
Startomatic so when stopping both decompressor levers automatically engage.
Bob
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I have some questions about crankshafts.
1. How much wear is too much wear on the pinion gear? (see photo)
2. The main journals appear to have no discernible wear but one is slightly pitted with rust. Is it serviceable?
3. How is the gear attached to the shaft? It looks like it was probably pressed on or shrunk in place rather than machined out of a single billet. If so could a replacement be found?
Perhaps I should just order a new shaft and know that I`ll get the hours out of it in the future.
Bob
1. I would think you would have to determine that by checking the backlash with the idler gear.
2. That looks much better than mine. I am replacing mine. The galvanic corrosion on mine looks to be much deeper and has also pitted the pinion gear severely. You are likely within limits.
3. The gear is shrink fit over a straight knurl. It is a bear to get off. I made a custom puller and heated everything up and it took quite a bit of force to get off. I searched high and low for a replacement gear, even contacted a couple of the Indian manufacturers, they are not available. I have spoken to a gear manufacturer and will likely have one made just to save the crank as a backup.
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Thanks Broncodriver99, pretty much what I thought. Shame the pinion gear is not available, would have been easy to cut the old one off with a gas axe and press a new one onto the shaft.
I think I will dress up the existing one and then make an offset pivot for the idler gear to reduce the backlash.
Bob
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The gears are available - just a bit obscure because only the crankshaft forging folks will be using them during crank assembly. I think my supplier can source them though.
dieselgman
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The gears are available - just a bit obscure because only the crankshaft forging folks will be using them during crank assembly. I think my supplier can source them though.
dieselgman
I asked about one a while back. ? So, can you get them?
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Non-stock item, but I believe I had looked for them before. At least once I have pulled one for a client. If wanted/needed, that can be found for certain. They are in current production and use in India! They certainly want your dollars! What is uncertain at this time is how long it may take to get one in hand.
dieselgman
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The gears are available - just a bit obscure because only the crankshaft forging folks will be using them during crank assembly. I think my supplier can source them though.
dieselgman
Hi Gary, I would certainly be interested in one of these as the crankshaft is well within wear tolerance, so I guess the challenge is how much and how long. Could a pinion gear be shipped direct to me in Australia rather than shipped to you in the USA and then to me?
Anyone know how to fit one of these, are they a press fit or they heated to shrink onto the shaft? Would heating effect the hardening/tempering of the pinion gear?
Bob
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I have requested them along with our current parts shipment. Not yet confirmed. I have removed them before and that required both heat and a 30-ton press pushed fairly high in its range. This indicates a heated and pressed installation method as well. The trick is to expand the gear without killing all of its hardening temper. Great finesse is called for to avoid overheating and this is why they are generally not messed with outside of original assembly. Proper alignment is the other thing that is sketchy about the job. There is no keyway and no guide marking... you have to get it in place correctly for TDC on the crank to align properly with valve timing.
dieselgman
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Sound like a very challenging operation. Please let me know when you get delivery.
I am assuming that these are very hard so the old one could probably be removed by cutting most of the way through with a disk grinder and then splitting it with a cold chisel.
Bob
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Affirmative, the gear is of quite hardened material. I have not tried cracking one loose, but that should work OK as long as you don't have an accident that damages the crankshaft in the process.
dieselgman
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Affirmative, the gear is of quite hardened material. I have not tried cracking one loose, but that should work OK as long as you don't have an accident that damages the crankshaft in the process.
dieselgman
Thanks Gary, I`ve been splitting bearings off shafts for 30 plus years with no problem, so if this one goes wrong it`s because you put some sort of Dieselgman hex on me. Looking forward to the challenge and I think I can overcome the issue of alignment. Time will tell. The worst that can happen is that I will have to buy a new crankshaft, which is where this conversation started.
Bob
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Hi Guys, haven`t posted much recently, been poorly and will have to go to Brisbane to see a spine surgeon. Don`t know how that`s all going to work out.
On a more positive note I have managed to make some new governor pins. Used 8mm silver steel rod hardened and tempered. Reamed out the holes in the governor weights and camshaft gear. No discernible slop in mechanism :)
Today I received some 5/8 brass bar to replace the worn plunger in the oil pump. Does anyone know what the original length should be? I have measured what is left of mine and get a length of 3.892 inches. The nearest size in imperial size would be 3 & 29/32 inch (3.90625) very close to 99mm. This would be an odd size to use but I find it hard to believe that the plunger could have worn/deformed from 4inch.
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Well guys and girls, I have finally managed to get a small interim payment, for my injuries, out of an insurance company. It has only taken 16 months!
So today I ordered a few bits with the intention of recommencing my build. I found and have ordered Oilite bushes for the rockers and the camshaft. These are all oversized so they can be machined to match the originals. I have also ordered a length of 35mm cast iron for the other end of the camshaft. I have ordered silver steel in various diameters to manufacture various components to replace worn parts.
It is my intention to follow the example of Deiselspanner and machine the worn ends of the camshaft, before turning the replacement Oilite and cast iron bushes to fit. I have access to a mates lathe and will start to post pictures and progress reports as soon as I get the materials.
Looking forward to making some progress. Not looking forward to pouring concrete and building it a home or explaining to my wife where the money went.
R.I.P Peter,
Bob
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Thanks Glort, you know, from personal experience, what I am learning every day that there are no winners in these situations, only losers. The lawyers make a buck and everybody else gets royally f**cked. I actually feel some sympathy for the lawyers as they have to listen to whinging clients all day while the law determines that they can do little if anything to assist. What it does to their mental health and personal esteem I can only guess at. I have been told that doctors, lawyers and counsellors have some of the highest rates of alcoholism and suicide amongst the professions.
As for the death penalty I`m with you, for those that pray on the weak, innocent, naïve and infirm there should be no penalty other than death. This is not because I am cruel or bloodthirsty but because I am kind and would like the the money we spend on incarceration and policing spent on health care, age pensions, educating the young and treating the sick. I`ll happily stand beside you and pull the trigger to eliminate our society of some of it`s worst elements to divert care to some of it`s young, sick and old.
I think that if we could divert just some of the money spent on jailing people to providing mental health care, to the mentally disadvantaged in society, we could reduce the prison population dramatically and ensure safe environments for all our people.
I am sick and tired of watching violent offenders laughing at our court system and the will of the Australian people. For evil to prevail all that is required is that good men (and women) do nothing. We have a responsibility to bequeath a safe, stable and just world to future generations, one in which the violent, indolent and greedy have no place and the elderly, sick and infirm are supported and cherished.
If you want to go for public office I`ll support you, it`s time for good men (and women) to stand together against the tide of indifference, greed and incompetence.
Sorry for the (and women) bit, sounds a bit like a sketch from a Monty Python film. I guess I am lucky in that I care for my wife and respect her opinion.
Vote Glort,
Bob
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just in case I didn`t make myself clear about the death penalty take a look at this and tell me I`m wrong https://au.news.yahoo.com/sa/a/39572186/parents-couldnt-afford-to-vaccinate-baby-that-died-from-meningo/
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The 2 times I have called the cops, I was told both times " There were no cars in the area and it would be at least 1 hours wait".
My favourite (sadly, it's an urban legend) story along those lines is this:
Philip Hewitson, an elderly man, from Norwich, was going up to bed, when his wife told him that he’d left the light on in the garden shed, which she could see from the bedroom window. Phillip opened the back door to go turn off the light, but saw that there were people in the shed stealing things.
He phoned the police, who asked ”Is someone in your house?"
He said "No, but some people are breaking into my garden shed and stealing from me.”
Then the police dispatcher said "All patrols are busy. You should lock your doors and an officer will be along when one is available."
Philip said, "Okay." He hung up the phone and counted to 30. Then he phoned the police again. "Hello, I just called you a few seconds ago because there were people stealing things from my shed. Well you don’t have to worry about them now because I just shot them." and he hung up.
Within five minutes, Six Police Cars, a SWAT Team, a Helicopter, two Fire Trucks, a Paramedic, and an Ambulance showed up at the Hewitson`s’ residence, and caught the burglars red-handed.
One of the Policemen said to Philip, "I thought you said that you’d shot them!"
Philip said, "I thought you said there was nobody available!"
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Hey Guys, finally put in my order for $600 worth of parts to complete the rebuild of the bottom end of my 6/1, looking forward to being able to post some pictures of progress, also looking forward to bombarding all you knowledgeable people about end float clearances and etc.
Happy days, :laugh:
Bob.
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Hey Glort, parts being couriered to me this week. Camera charging, beer in the fridge and I`m off the antidepressants.
BRING IT ON! ;D
Bob
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Happy days, the first delivery of parts arrived this morning. Ordered on Sunday, sent on Monday, arrived on Tuesday. Got to be a record for Australia Post! A big thank you to Rob at Old Timer Engines.
I have spent a lot of time today unwrapping all the bits, Christmas has come early this year. I`ve also spent a lot of time checking out 38ac`s fine explanations of how to rebuild the bottom end of a Lister engine. I have therefor ordered a dial test indicator and magnetic base. I also ordered some micrometer blue to do the gib keys with.
Praying for rain now so I can justify spending time in the shed rather than doing the chores around the property.
I`ll post pictures once I get going again, ;D
Bob
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Hi Glort, lots of progress on Bromiliad house for the wife. No progress on CS, praying for rain so I can take a break from digging holes and leveling ground and get back to building engines.
Happy Wife=Happy life. :laugh:
Bob
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Well Guys, still no progress on the CS rebuild, sadly I`m back to filling in forms and emailing BS to insurance companies that don`t give a sh1t about my health or well being, only the share holders and the annual bonus they get for fending off anyone like me trying to making a claim. Got to go for another series of medical assessments to prove that I`m not real well, all at my expense of course.
If these idiots had paid me $20 an hour for the time I have wasted filling in the forms and traveling to their preferred doctors I could be retired by now! No wonder I am on anti-depressants and my Wife is about to have a nervous breakdown.
I am seriously considering refusing to comply with anymore of their requests, if they want to psychoanalise me or check out my physical health why do I have to travel hundreds of kilometers each time at my expense? These people earn a fortune why can`t they come to see me?
To add insult to injury the NSW firearms registry have just decided that I am a danger to myself and others because I am on anti-depressant medications. I am neither homicidal or suicidal but if these shiny arsed insurance/government C U Next Tuesdays continue to push my buttons I may well go Postal Worker. The really stupid thing is that I am no longer legally allowed to own a firearm, so I have transferred ownership to my wife who has a fire arms license (cost me $30). My guns are in the the same gun cabinet, in the same house and the keys are still hidden in the same place. A huge result for public safety and a big win for the revenue collection service!
If you read in the papers that some maniac has decided to shoot up a whole bunch of insurance companies. government agencies and lawyers officers It might well be me. If it isn`t me I applaud the poor sods who got driven to do it by the companies and agencies that are supposed to cover their backs!
Rant over, until the morning when the BS starts again,
Bob
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Well Guys I finally got to spend an hour on my rebuild yesterday, rain stopped everything else.
Could someone please explain the disparity in the geometry of the original Dursley governor linkage on the right and the new replacement on the left. What effect, if any, is this likely to have on the performance/regulation?
The only reason I ordered a replacement is that there is a large flat spot on the governor follower shown in the second photo, perhaps it`s meant to be there.
Bob
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4otiDKDiyk
With thanks to the eminent 38AC
This video will explain
Off the top of my uninformed head I would guess the answer to your question is - "as long as it can be adjusted as per 38AC's video, the apparent disparity won't matter"
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Thanks Mikenash, I`ve watched every video posted by the illustrious 38ac even the ones involving tractors ploughing. I`m sure the new assembly could be adjusted to perform well. I`m just curious as to why they would change the original geometry.
Just to p*ss me off the manufacturer has also reversed the taper on the taper pins so I can`t just swap parts between the two, Original has the pins driven from left to right replacement is from right to left.
I might just swap the governor follower wheel and bin the rest.
Bob
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Well Guys and Gals, we finally got a rainy day so I can play with my man toys in my man shed.
Having read everything from 38ac on the WOK, I decided to fit my new crankshaft and bush bearings.
The first job was to knock off any high spots, dinks and file off the key way edges on the new crankshaft before fitting the new bush bearings.
The second job was to fit the bushings in the housings. These were a little tight but half an hour in the deep freeze and they slid in OK.
The crankshaft, bushes and housings were then assembled with plenty of gaskets.
Problems encountered: first the new crank shaft must be bent as it binds the moment I try to tighten the housings, this will need straightening, advice please.
Second the end float on the crank should be about 6 thou. With no gaskets I still have about 20 thou. I can assemble without gaskets using aircraft gasket sealer. I am considering pressing the bearing bushes back out and fitting a shim between them and the housing to reduce the end float. I can elongate the holes for the locating screws. Thoughts please.
Bob
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Hi Bob, sorry to have been absent but when things kinda get going 10 different directions in a thread my feeble brain cant keep up and I sorta stay away. Nobodies fault but my own personality quirks combined with low IQ.
I am a bit confused with how you are checking end play if the crankshaft is bound up when you snug the housing bolts? First thing I would do is get that crankshaft between centers and check it for straightness. If you dont have that capability or have a shop nearby that will check it for you then there are ways to check in in the block but it's kinda dicey. Because of the tolerances in India gaskets they can get pinched at the bottom when you are assembling and that will lock the crankshaft when you snug the bolts. When more than a couple is needed it can be a headache to keep them all up on the lip of the main bearing casting while it is being tightened up. It is always best to use fewer and thicker gaskets than a stack of thin ones. the following is going ot get real wordy, sorry for that but trying to get in all the important checks requires it. A brand new crank at the top of the tolerance along with new bushings at the minimum tolerance can yield .001 clearance and will bind VERY easily if things are not totally straight!! however with .003 to .004 clearance things can be out of whack a bit and it all works out fine. Not knowing where all that stands makes diagnosing your issue kinda difficult.
Recheck both the block and main bearing castings for burrs. Then place the crankshaft in the block and mount one main bearing housing without any shims and tighten the nuts. Now move over to the other side and shake the crankshaft around to familiarize yourself with how much movement there is both side to side and up and down. Once that is established take the other housing and slide it on the crankshaft, again,no shim gaskets. When you get to the block studs it should stop if your not lifting on the crankshaft. Assuming it stops lift up on the crankshaft to the top of the slop and try to slide the housing inward, it should once more hit the studs. What your trying to establish is that when mounted the housing is more or less in the middle of the slop in the off side bearing. Assuming that works out OK slide the housing over the studs and up on the piloting ring. Install a couple nuts loosely so it will stay up on the pilot. Will the crankshaft turn? If so turn it carefully from the other end while watching the loose hosing. Is the housing walking around while you are turning the crankshaft? or does it turn freely partway and then bind? if so you have a bent crank. If that all checks out then begin to snug the nuts on the housing, while checking end play. If you loose end play then you need to add a thick gasket and proceed with snugging the nuts. Now if you are certain that the crank is straight and you are not bound up at the thrust surfaces and the nuts are tight but the crankshaft is either stiff to turn or wont turn then the next step is to whack the crankshaft around a bit. Use a hardwood block against the crank a few inched out from the housing and whack it a good one with a 4lb hammer, up ,down and sideways. Do both sides and then try to turn it. I have never seen where this didn't improve things when new main bushings are installed.
Do all this and report back.
Butch
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Thanks Butch. I have followed your advice to the letter and the crankshaft still binds. I am able to tighten everything finger tight and still have the crank rotate. I have checked the run out on the crank with a dial test indicator and it shows 0.03mm (1.1 thou)wobble about 6 inches from the bearing housing. This is probably acceptable and suggests that the crank shaft is pretty straight.
I think you have probably hit the nail on the head when you say that I have a maximum sized crank and minimum sized bushes, leaving me with only about 1 thou of clearance. That coupled with about 1.1 thou bend in the crank is enough to cause it to bind.
I tightened everything up, without gaskets, and measured the end float with a set of feeler gauges. There is about 25 thou float which is unacceptable. Fortunately only the bearing bush at the cam gear end is going to need to be shimmed as this will give good alignment between the gears Please see photo.
So what are my options? Try to straighten the crank, reduce the size of the crank journals or increase the size of the bushes. Advice please.
Bob
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Hi Guys did a lot of f*cking about with this binding problem today. Pressed the bushes out and looked for high spots on the outside, found a few and fettled them back so they no longer bind. Refitted the bushes in the housings and snugged the nuts, still binding very slightly.
Applied a little engineers blue to the bush bearings and crank, scrapped the high spots and I think things are looking OK, still a little tighter than I would like but should run in OK.
I still have a problem with excessive end float of 25 thou without gaskets, so I have cut a shim from 20 thou aluminium (please see photo). I intend to fit this between the bush and the housing to reduce end float to around 5 thou. I will have to elongate the locating screw hole but that should be easy with a round needle file. I am considering using a couple of drops of Loctite on this bush to ensure it never moves.
I will have to fit the housings without gaskets, any recommendations for a liquid gasket that will form a good seal? I have used loctite aviation gasket sealer in the past with good results.
Thoughts please,
Bob
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Hi Bob
I'd use bathroom sealant, in 'Transparent', wipe off the excess and no one will ever know, plenty good enough up to 100 + degrees. As the CS is designed to run with negative crankcase pressure you could probably get away with nothing at all.
Cheers Stef
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Thanks Stef, I have used silicon sealants on gearbox housings in the past, with good results provided the mating surfaces are clean. Wish I could find a source for Hylomar here in Australia, it never let me down.
Bob
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Bob,
I left it out of my other post because things get to wordy and thus hard to follow but my next suggestion was going to be to push the bushings back out and then fit them to the housings so they slide in half way by hand at room temps,,but you have figured most of that out ;) What happens when you have to chill them to get them in the housings is the ID also shrinks. The when you place them home they cant grow back and the ID then is below spec. I have had several India bushings that are just plain too large on the OD. Bottom line is if the bushing wont slide in half way at room temps with hand pressure the cause needs to be fixed. The other thing that happens is if the bushings are installed with the clocking off just a bit the stay bolt then pushes on the bushing and causes a bind. The stay bolts must screw all the way in with the fingers!. The check is to loosen them, if your crank frees up you found your problem.
Shimming the bushing inward will work if yo dou a good job of making the shim. Silicone will work fine, actually better than a gasket,, or is it a joint?? 8)
Butch
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Thanks Butch for all your help. I very much appreciate it. I also very much doubt your claim to being IQ challenged, everything you have posted makes perfect sense to me, maybe we share the same intellectual disability or, more likely we are OK and the rest of the population are just ignorant f*ckwits! :laugh:
I will post more as time allows,
Bob
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Well Folks, while I have been struggling to get my new crankshaft and bearings freed up I noticed a lot of nasty black crap accumulating under the new crankshaft. (See photo)
I couldn`t work out where this sh1t was coming from as I have cleaned all original parts and been scrupulous about avoiding dirt while fitting new white metal bearings. It turns out that it is casting sand and slag left on the new crankshaft. This stuff has no place in a crankcase so I set about removing it from the crank. Several hours with files, grinders, wire brushes and etc. It is now free of nasty sh1t that will contaminate my oil and damage my bearings. (see photo) I strongly recommend that anyone fitting a new crankshaft descale it before assembly and then paint it to prevent contaminants entering your lubricant. (See photo)
I also managed to press out the bush bearing and refit it with a shim behind it. Once the paint has dried I will fit the crankshaft and housings and check the end float. Looking for 5 thou, fingers crossed I got the maths right.
Bob
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or, more likely we are OK and the rest of the population are just ignorant f*ckwits! :laugh:
Bob
Bob
I will go with that ;D , get ready to dodge heavy objects thrown our way!
Actually I have come to the conclusion that I have an attention disorder of sort. I read along and when things get going 7 different ways I absorb none of it, on topic or not.
Back to your crankshaft woes many years ago prior to owning my very first Indian engine I read a LOT of old postings and looked at all the photos came to the conclusion that by and large filth was the reason people were seeing short life from Indian engines while owners were trying to blame other things making up all sorts of "fixes" when indeed they were just walking circles around the main problem that was smacking them in the face. And to tell you the truth nothing since has deterred me from that opinion with my India engine experience now approaching 100 engines total. The CS type engine is not highly stressed thus it doesn't require space age materials or lubricants to live long and prosper but engines no matter how slow they run will NOT tolerate ANY sand and slag circulating PERIOD. The sooner an engine man gets that firmly planted between his ears the closer he is to having and engine that will live. Yes there are occasional parts failures and we have to deal with poor assembly practices and with things such as the idler gear positioning but to deal with all that and not thoroughly clean and coat the engine is just wasted time, effort and money IMO.
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During the heyday of US Listeroid importing, few, including myself, were willing to accept that a complete strip down and refinish of the crankcase was necessary, as some importers were insisting that that was unnecessary and overkill by perfectionists.
Completely delusional baloney to increase sales, I'm now quite sure after just 2 engines.
Thanks, 38AC, for stating it so clearly:
'not thoroughly clean and coat the engine is just wasted time, effort and money IMO"
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Well Guys and Girls, I once again got a bit done on the old iron. Having checked the run out in the new crankshaft I am convinced that the new bushes are a fraction too tight. I have scrapped the bushes a touch and everything now turns freely. Perhaps a little tighter than I would like, so I intend to hook it up to an electric motor and run it in on the bench, a couple of hours with an oil change after should flush out any crap and ensure good longevity.
Sadly the keyways on the new crankshaft are about a half inch shorter than the original. This has made it impossible to refit the oil thrower rings as per the original. I have had to file off the lugs that located into the keyways and then set them with medium strength Loctite.
Flywheels have now been fitted, with an anti seize compound. Because the keyways are shorter I have had to shorten the gib keys and file a radius on the leading edges.
So now I need to address the issues with the camshaft and idler gear. The idler gear itself looks to be OK but does not mesh well with the pinion on the crankshaft. I will be turning up a new spigot with an offset as per 38ac`s instructions on the WOK. I need to know how to guesstimate the correct offset.
The camshaft is badly worn at the oil pump/injector end (lubrication issues) however the other end that runs in a steel bush is serviceable. I dry assembled that end of the shaft (see photo) and found 20 thou of end float in the old bush. I ordered a new bush, when it arrived it was of such poor quality that I wouldn`t dream of fitting it. It is also 25 thou shorter than the original, worn, item and takes the end float out to 45 thou. I am guessing that the correct end float is between 5 and 10 thou as per the crankshaft. Dieselspanner did a fine job of making new bushes, so I intend to follow his advice. I have a piece of 1.25" diameter cast iron for one end and an undersized oilite bush for the other end. I will turn down the worn end of the camshaft and then turn the Oilite bush to fit.
I am guessing that the important issue when doing this work is to ensure that the cam gear aligns well with the idler gear and then dimension the new steel bush to keep it aligned, clearly too much end float in the camshaft will also impact on the accuracy of the governor assembly and how accurately the engine maintains RPM under load. Advice please.
I also ordered a new cast iron cover for the non injector end of the camshaft. The new cover looked fine on the outside but was full of casting sand inside. It has now been cleaned and painted inside and out.
Info on end float please,
Bob
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I gotta 'fess up here, it weren't me wot made the bearings for the cam shaft, In WAS me that shamelessly copied Ed Dee's method of reeming out the hole in the crankcase and using a bush with an offset hole to move the idler bolt into the best position 'tho.......
Cheers
Stef
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Sorry Stef, I`m getting you confused with Dieselsmoker. Thanks for fessing up.
I`ll check out Ed Dee`s offset bush approach.
Bob
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Bwahaha..... Who uses my name in vain.... Who summoned the dark lord?
To measure the clearance.... aah..... forget it.... Ream the hole as large as you are comfortable with, machine up a piece of shaft to fit it snugly, cut off a suitable length and bore an offset to match your pin diameter .... guess it for the first one... if it is too tight, make another slightly less offset, too loose, go the other way.... within 2 or 3 tries you should be happy...
Maybe I was just lucky, but after an hour or 2 of making notes, calculation and measuring... well I just eyeballed it and got it more than satisfactory on second bush...
Ed
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Oh sh1t, didn`t intend to summon the Dark Lord. Which version are we talking about? The biblical scary demon, J R R Tolkein Mordor variety or the regular J K Rowling Harry Potter type. Should I be scared or just get on with building the engine? :laugh:
I like the simplicity of an offset bush, coupled with 3bac`s offset spigot we could have a completely adjustable setup which could be regularly adjusted during routine servicing.
Bob
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I ordered a new INDIAN bush, when it arrived it was of such poor quality that I wouldn`t dream of fitting it.
They always are :laugh:
The genuine item can be bought from here at a very reasonable price:
http://www.realdiesels.co.uk/listerparts2.html
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Well now I am totally confused. Today I dry assembled the cam shaft and fitted it. I aligned the governor sprocket with the idler gear and I have 75 thou of end float using the old worn components. Could the end bush and keeper have worn that much or am I missing something? I realize that there is little or no lubrication to the mating surfaces at the non injector pump end but 75 thou?
I am intending to turn up a new steel bush for this end of the camshaft but am concerned that moving the cam this far, to reduce the end float, will offset the cam lobes too much. Thoughts please.
Bob
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Offset on the cam lobes by up to about 2mm either way is normally not a major problem. Look at the other end of the cam shaft to make sure that the ip roller and oil pump are about centre, or not hanging off the end of their cam... you can reduce the end float by Counterboring the non ip side's camshaft end washer/retaining cap slightly, if yours has one.. on my roid, there was a small washer between the end cap and the cam shaft to give enough clearance....about 90thou or so... I removed the offending washer and found that the end cap was binding on the bushing, so relieved it a bit to give about 5 to 10 thou....
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Thanks Ed, I`ll reassemble the whole camshaft today and fit it. I`ll check the alignment between the gears and the IP roller and then measure the end float at the other end. I should then be able to work out the dimensions for the new bush aiming for 5 to 10 thou clearance. My Dursley Lister does not have a shim washer to set the end float, I suspect that was an Indian modification to allow for their greater manufacturing tolerances.
I`ll let you know what I find.
Bob
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"greater manufacturing tolerances". A generous term
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Much easier to make shim washers in various thicknesses than to get your manufacturing tolerances right!
Bob
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Well guys here is the info as promised. The gear on the crankshaft and The idler gear mesh very well and the faces are parallel. (please see photo) The camshaft gear is out of alignment towards the injector pump end by 20 thou, probably nothing to worry about.
The injector pump cam lobe is out off alignment, in the opposite direction, by about 30 thou. I have tossed the thick gasket I purchased and cut a thin paper replacement, this reduces the 30 thou to about 10 thou, hopefully within tolerance. (see pic)
The camshaft end float using the old worn bush and end cap now comes in at 25 thou. (see photo) I will take a very small skim off the end cap because it is pitted with rust and then turn a new cast iron bush to give me 5 thou of end float. I will also be taking a skim off the worn end of the camshaft(IP end) before turning the new Oilite bush to fit.
I have checked the lash in the timing gears, I have about 5 thou between the idler gear and the crankshaft pinion gear. I have about 10 thou between the idler gear and the camshaft gear. (done with feeler gauges)
I am thinking a new idler spigot with an off set of around 25 to 30 thou should get me in the ball park.
Advice please,
Bob
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Hey Glort, It`s a mixture of wear and manufacturing defects.
The first issue was the new crankshaft and bush bearings being too short and having 30 thou of end float, without any gaskets under the bearing housings. Had to cut shims to get the end float down to 5 thou and use a liquid gasket. The crankshaft gear now aligns well with the original idler gear.
The second issue is wear in the idler gear and spigot which leaves me with 5 thou of lash with the crankshaft gear and 10 thou lash with the camshaft. I am sure this can be resolved with an offset spigot bolt.
The third issue is the alignment between the idler gear and the camshaft gear. This must be a manufacturing error on the original Lister! (please don`t throw things ;D ) The wear in the steel bush and keeper have actually improved the alignment.
The last issue is the position of the new cam lobe for the injector pump. It is not centered under the injector roller. I have reduced the problem by using a much thinner gasket but it is still not right. I could get it spot on by adjusting the steel bush and keeper at the other end of the camshaft but this makes the gear alignment worse. I have wondered if this misalignment is deliberate allowing the non meshing 30 thou of the camshaft to act as an oil thrower to lubricate the brass bush and injector pump roller.
Anyone thinking they can repair a Lister cs by simply swapping worn parts for new Indian parts is going to be very disappointed, the tolerances and dimensions just don`t match.
Thoughts please.
Bob
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Managed to get access to a mate`s lathe today, so I turned down the injector pump end of the camshaft by 25 thou. Turned a new bush from an over sized piece of Oilite. I am not going to bother to cut an oiler groove in this bush as the original didn`t have one and lasted for nearly sixty years.
I`ll have a go at an off set spigot for the idler gear tomorrow. I managed to salvage a suitable piece of steel from an old Land Rover gearbox. It was so hard that I couldn`t mark it with a file so I put it in our wood burning stove overnight to anneal it, nice and soft now. I should be able to harden and temper it afterwards.
Bob
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Well guys, I found the problem with the new IP cam lobe not being centered under the injector pump lifter. The new Cam lobe is drilled about 40 thou different from the original. (Please see pic) So much for Indian engineering. >:(
Didn`t leave me with any option but to reuse the original. Annealed the old cam lobe, resurfaced it with a very fine file, followed by varying grades of emery cloth. It`s now about 10 thou smaller than the new one. Hardened it, then tempered it and a file won`t mark it now, so I think it worked out OK. I very much doubt that the loss of 10 thou will have a significant effect on either the injection pump or the oil pump although I wouldn`t recommend trying it on any modern high speed engines.
Machined up a new cast iron bush for the other end of the camshaft because the end float, due to wear, was excessive. (please see pic) I was about to cut the oil retaining groove in the far end of it to prevent oil from flowing into and puddling in the end cover when I had a revelation. The reason for the excessive end float is wear between the end of the bush and the face of the keeper which are deprived of lubrication by that oil retaining groove. So, instead, I have cut the oil slot in the new bush from end to end. (please see pic) This will lubricate the far end of the camshaft and keeper. The problem with this is that the end cover will fill up with oil. The solution is to drill a hole in the crankcase to allow that oil to drain back into the sump. I shall be doing that later this week and will post photos.
I managed to reassemble the camshaft, using the original components, I applied a couple of drops of medium strength Loctite to every cam lobe and taper pin before driving them in tight, I don`t want anything working loose, I don`t like surprises. (Please see pic)
Very disappointed, I turned a new offset spigot for the idler gear, I took a guess at 25 thou offset, no where near enough, I`m thinking 45 thou to get the gears to mesh well. I guess I`ll just have to make another.
Off to the doctors again tomorrow, so will try to post more on Tuesday.
Bob
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Hey Glort, I`m worried it will easily outlast me but so might my 7 year old dog. I`ve told Narelle (my wife) to make sure the CS goes to you should if and when I carc it. (hopefully not soon)
On another thread, I posted that I was going to bed and I would read you treatise on WVO tomorrow, I`m still here cos I lied and have no will power, I had to read it tonight. A fine piece of work, I`ll read it again in the morning and try to find fault with it.
Bob
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Hey Buddy, very worried to hear you are suffering funny turns after doing fairly mild physical activity. Have you spoken to your Doctor? I had several incidents like that before my heart attack. I don`t want to worry you or add to the stress you already have but please get it checked out. A simple myocardial profusion scan or a stress test could put both our minds at rest.
Bob
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Hey Glort, glad to hear the problem isn`t physical. Mental/motivational issues are hard to deal with but a heart attack can kill you in minutes.
I kinda understand your issue with young model types: young, dumb, opinionated in all the wrong ways, lousy company with exaggerated expectations of their own worth, just like my first wife. Now I`m much more interested in intelligent women than pretty ones. Sound like your wife has her head screwed on right.
I guess you feel a bit like a midwife: first birth is something special, after you`ve done 10,000 you just slap it`s arse and stick it on the tit. Hope you can find some motivation to restart the business, gives you a good reason to spend time on the sunshine coast where you are happy. Perhaps you could find a happy medium by working a month and then have a month off or possibly a week on and a month off, whatever works for you.
Happy to help if I can,
Bob
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I also wonder a lot if I will be seen as creditable or just another fat gutted, middle age, balding fella using a camera to get close to young women who wouldn't look at them sideways otherwise.
Now I`m really concerned, since when did you start giving a flying f*ck what other people think? Why don`t you just tell them you are gay, then sue them for their homophobic attitudes?
I`m wondering is you can`t merge your love of photography and machinery, always going to be a demand for photos of high end motor vehicles with scantily clad beauties.
I also think there will always be a demand for portraiture. Any fool with a smart phone can take photos, but it takes real talent to capture someones character in a picture. Digital imaging also allows easy editing so a portrait can be set against pretty much any background the client asks for. Cartoon characters for the little fellas, Star wars for the teenagers? The sky and your imagination are the only limits.
Bob
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Hey Glort, glad I could help.
I think you already know the answers, you`re no fool. You can make a living out of glamour photography but are worried about being considered some sort of weirdo pervert, so you need to involve your wife or employ a female or gay assistant to act as chaperone, makeup artist and back up if anyone ever suggests some sort of impropriety.
Start there and then follow what ever leads develop. Don`t be afraid of saying yes to something new, also saying NO to anything that you would feel uncomfortable doing. Anything you can`t make your mind up about, check the bank balance then discus with your Wife.
Love the idea of underwater photography, just the sort of niche you need to find. It is possible to get police record checks and permits to work with children for both yourself and any staff you employ, once again always ensure that there is another person to act as chaperone. Just be very careful that the photographs you take are only given to the parents, any originals you keep for back up must be kept secure to ensure the perverts on the internet can never get access, a stand alone server with no internet access is the way to go.
High school drop out eh? I got expelled! :laugh: Best thing that ever happened to me, until then I was on the path to university, followed by a predictable future in the corporate world. Thankfully, I can honestly say I have had a much more interesting and very satisfying life.
Bob
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Well guys, I got a bit more done today on restoring the old girl. The camshaft is now fitted and the IP end cover is in place, very happy with the alignment, all cam followers rotate and the IP roller lifter is centered on the cam lobe. The oil pump also appears to be working and well aligned. (See photo)
I have also turned up a new shaft for the rocker assembly, hardened it and tempered it ready to install. (see photo)
I`ve been trying to find a local machine shop to skim the cylinder head and put a sleeve in the cylinder block. I think I have found a guy to do the work and am hoping he won`t be to expensive. I`d much rather restore what I have than spend anymore money on imported Indian sh1t that never meets expectations and is usually a mile out of tolerance.
I will try to make up another offset spigot for the idler gear this week. 40 thou offset for the next one.
Bob
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Hey Glort, when are you coming? Always good to have a deadline even if I have no chance of meeting it, at least it will give me the motivation to try. Would love for you to be here for first smoke and to take some of the credit and a lot of thanks for all your good advice.
Bob
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Hey Buddy, the only things that are going to keep me from meeting You and your Wife are death and doctors appointments. I shall do my best to avoid both.
As for credit, I credit you and all the forum members for giving me the support, enthusiasm, knowledge and strength to see this through.
As for rain, it`s pissing down here thank God. Hoping some of the drought effected farmers are getting some. Give it a week and I`ll have to start cutting the bloody grass again, not an easy task with better than ten acres. Never understood how weeds can grow in pasture so dry the grass dies, how does fireweed survive, it`s roots are only 20mm deep?
Looking forward to more about the root terminator plough, just don`t let it get away from you, I have visions of it going cross country tearing up pipes, fences and the NBN with catastrophic consequences.
Bob
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Loving the lazy mans approach to weeding. Got to get me one of those veg oil burners.
In the UK if a tree needed killing we would knock a couple of copper roofing nails into the trunk, worked a treat, took a while but the council never worked it out.
Lawn mowing is done with a 42 inch ride on mower. Takes ages and stops me playing with engines. :(
Would love a tractor and slasher but they cost money I don`t have and can`t earn.
Can`t wait to see the new improved root ripping plough.
Bob
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Well guys, I dropped nearly $600 on parts today. Rob at Old Timer Engines must be a very happy man. Gone as far as I can with what I`ve got. Will be taking the old cylinder block to be sleeved tomorrow. Rob has found me a serviceable original CAV injector pump, it`s off a 3/1 so I have ordered a new larger element. Hope it fits.
So i`m unable to make any further progress on the engine for a week or two. Instead I decided to dismantle the new (non compliant) Chinese ST5 generator head I have. I`m not surprised it`s not compliant, it`s not as bad as it might have been but it`s certainly not pretty inside. I have a pair of new decent sealed Japanese bearings for it, so I pulled the old ones out. Please see photos. What sort of a maniac would fit unsealed bearings in an alternator in this day and age?
The slip rings have furrows in them that I could plant potatoes in, so that will be going to the lathe for a skim and polish. The carbon brush holders are a joke and the alignment with the slip rings is an absolute disgrace.
No wonder China has a reputation for delivering cheap cr*p.
Bob
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Bob is that the reasonably priced generator you got from ozlisteroids?
It looks like a fair bit of work to get it to reliable operation.
Is this the same generator as Glort has ? As I have one also in the pipe.
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Hi OSM, yes it is the one I purchased from Ozlisteroids. In fairness to Stephen Hutson ( the proprietor) he told me they were non compliant and would require the slip rings skimming and the bearings replacing. He provided the new bearings and an AVR at no extra cost. I believe that after the recommended modifications it will be a reliable unit. Re aligning the brushes with the slip rings should be a no-brainer for anyone with half decent vision.
Bob
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thanks Bob,
i just realized that muck that looks like rust on the bearings and shaft is the legendary, magic yak fat Chinese grease.
So Some sealed bearings from NSK Timkin or SKF, shold do the job properly.
I have seen new brush blocks on ebay far better than whats in these, so i should be ok.
Thanks Andrew.
will be following your rebuild with much intrest, hoping Stephen can get mine to me before Christmas. Would give me something to do over the break.
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Hi OSM, I`ll try to do some more on it tomorrow and post some more pics, think I can probably make a silk purse out of this particular sows ear. The windings are copper and look to be OK, I`ll check them with a meter in the morning. A little adjustment to the positioning of the carbon brushes should be easy enough. I guess we get what we pay for, I could have spent $1500 on a Stamford clone.
Bob
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The inexpensive China made AVR's my neighbor has for his ST-3 are "consumables". He has to replace them every couple years. This is likely due to marginal design and the high peak voltages of the harmonic output. He has no fall back to harmonic windings alone as they produce something like 400V as is. The harmonic windings are very sensitive to the clearance between rotor and stator, one of the many variables that aren't well controlled in the ST's.
Watch out for bum brushes- I got a batch with some contaminate in the graphite mix that would electrically insulate the brush contact after just a minute or two of spinning. Took some head scratching to figure that out but it did show clearly with the ohm meter between brush wire and slip ring.
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Thank you BruceM, very good to get a heads up from someone with much more experience of these heads than I have. I may have a whole load of questions later.
Hi OSM, I managed to remove all of the Yakfat grease from everything. I then removed as much of the red oxide sh1t it was covered in. Copper windings look good and read OK with an ohm meter. I still have to skim the slip rings in the lathe. I`ve replaced the nasty bit of painted rag that was holding the wires to the slip rings in place. I`ve replaced it with cotton string. The whole assembly has had three coats of satin polyurethane varnish(what I had). Shame that some parts of the plastic coil bobbins are damaged but shouldn`t cause any problems. This damage was done during manufacture or assembly as there are no loose pieces inside the casing. The new sealed bearing Stephen supplied look pretty good quality and should give good service. Photos attached.
I`ll have a go at the other half of the assembly tomorrow.
Bob
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Bob;
Most impressive work, and thank you so much for the step by step guide to doing mine.
I'm quite looking forward to it arriving and getting on with the job.
Andrew.
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Hi Andrew, I managed to clean the other half of the assembly today removed rust, yakfat, mouse droppings and sawdust. The most worrying discovery was a blob of solder that had fallen onto the field windings. The moron given the job of soldering the connections in the top box allowed molten solder to drip down from above. I doubt that it will have burned off the polyurethane on the windings but it is just another example of shoddy Chinese workmanship. I removed it mechanically and then made sure every thing got a couple of good coats of new varnish. Please see photos.
I also discovered that the lazy buggers hadn`t bothered to clear the casting sand out of the bearing housings. Not a really good idea when running unsealed bearings covered in Yakfat! :laugh:
Bob
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Hey Glort, this sort of lack of attention to detail amazes me. How do these people expect to have jobs in the future if they continue to make such simple mistakes? I guess that Chinese training and development is minimal, the supervision occasional and the quality assurance non existent. What a shame that the largest manufacturing base on earth is still wasting materials, resources and man power on these sub standard products.
Please don`t misunderstand me, the shafts, windings and castings are all of acceptable quality, why would you have them assembled with sub standard bearings by a moron? I can only guess that they never have to replace anything as the guarantee isn`t worth the paper it`s written on.
This is a common problem in communist countries. I have a friend who lives and works in St. Petersburg in Russia. He tells me that the performance of a factory is not determined by how much profit it makes but how much stuff it produces. This ends up with bizarre results, for instance a factory that produced a million drinking glasses last year, that no one wants or buys, is considered a huge success if it produces 2 million glasses this year! The weirdest example of this was a shoe and boot manufacturer that had two production lines, one making boots for the left foot and another making boots for the right foot. Incredibly they introduced a competition between the two lines with financial rewards for the winning line. They then built warehouses in which to store the boots they couldn`t make into a pair!
On the positive side, I think with a little work this will be a very good and reliable alternator.
Bob
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Bob;
Thanks for all the photos and info on the job, best of luck with it and the result.
I had been contemplating using a 7kw gen head single bearing gen in stead.
And building a drive for it knowing it would work with just a cursory inspection.
Even though it would be at 3000 rpm. But your investigation and photos, and Glorts moral support, has me confident, that at the end of this.
You may have a silk purse, but there is a fair chance i wont end up with a sow's ear.
I had been thinking about the metering of these generators, and an accurate speed measuring, and the penny dropped. The Chinese meters i use on the output of all my inverters would be perfect.
It measures volts, watt, frequency, Kwh, Amps, and power factor. Stick one in the Top box with the outlets on the other side, and i will always know were i'm at. Frequency and load wise.
Ebay about $20 for the 20 amp internal shunt version, comes in 100 amp as well.
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Well Guys, I finally got around to doing a bit on the old girl. I ordered a new replacement bush for the non injector pump and of the camshaft. When it arrived it was of such poor quality that I put it straight in the bin and turned up a new one, please see photo.
Instead of turning an oil control ring in one end I felt it would be better to allow the oil to flow through into the end cover. The problem with this is that there is no return passage for the oil to return to the sump.
Simple solution, drill a hole through the cankcase, please see photo.
I hope this will lubricate the end bush and reduce the wear that causes excessive end float in the camshaft.
Bob
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Hi Bob
The oil pump feeds this camshaft bush? Isn't it necessary to be a different pressure to make oil flow?
BR
VP
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Hi Pedrosa, this bush is splash lubricated by the oil thrower on the bottom of the con-rod. The oil flows in through a hole in the top of the bush and housing. The oil evacuates from the bush via the slot in the bottom. It can now evacuate at both ends of the bush. one end is in the crankcase the other end is behind the cover shown in the photograph. Hence the need for a drain hole.
Bob
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Hi Gentles, and specialy Bob
I'd been told Bob is Ok and rolling.
And his Lister is also running
Bob, I'll put the vid here in your behalf - with your bless ofcourse. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wycNPn00wDpmmHqEP4AfChHGbIFW8KcV
Cheers
VP
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Beautiful !
Immaculate and spotless.
Where do the cooling lines run to? CHP or hydronic heating ?
Veggie
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I've got the task now, of replacing brushes on a ST-5 head.
Vendor suggestions & part #'s or are they all different each week ?
Any videos of getting the brush out past the springs ?