Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Lister Based Generators => Topic started by: basewindow on October 08, 2017, 11:22:44 PM

Title: Identify this?
Post by: basewindow on October 08, 2017, 11:22:44 PM
Sorry to be vague and for the poor quality of the picture

It has no plate on it and the word 'BUSCH', apart from that nothing.

Came with the Lister CS 3.5 and a switchboard.
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: basewindow on October 14, 2017, 09:14:26 PM
A few more pictures that may help....
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: basewindow on October 24, 2017, 09:05:32 PM
Can no-one help?

Even a general description of how it works etc?

Which wires do what and go where?

Anyone?  Anyone?
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: broncodriver99 on October 24, 2017, 09:19:34 PM
Sure looks like a Busch generator head of some sort to me.

That's an interesting looking pulley. As far as wiring you would need a model # to track down a wiring diagram, or someone who knows generators/motors well enough to figure out what wire does what with a meter.

If it came with a Start-O-Matic set it may have a generator winding and a DC starting/charging winding as well. How about a picture of the wires and terminals from above. That may help. Pictures of the switchboard may offer some clues as well.
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: starfire on October 24, 2017, 11:18:24 PM
This appears to be a DC generator as it has a commutator rather than slip rings. These were very common in garages in the late 1800 /early 1900s when batteries were used to run tramcars and old valve radio equipment.... charging stations were everywhere. AC mains required high current rectifying equipment, it was easier and cheaper to use DC generators driven from either an AC motor, or a stationary engine to get low voltage DC..... thats my guess.
It could also be a DC welder, although the wire size suggests otherwise.
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: starfire on October 24, 2017, 11:30:23 PM
Looking more closely, Id say its a compounded DC generator. the output current will be found across the two green wires inside the unit. The brushes appear to be seriesed with part of the field coils (stator) giving feedback to hold the voltage stable under load. The exciter current is fed into the two black wires.
Chuck it in a lathe and spin it up with a DC voltmeter across  the green wires, and feed in a small current from say a car battery into the two blacks. It will generate, and measurements can be taken to identify is parameters. 
Another guess ... its a 120 volt DC unit at around 20  amps.... judging  by the winding sizes, probably needs around 15 volts at 2 amps exciter current.....
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: basewindow on October 25, 2017, 01:47:28 AM
Thanks guys. Ill get more pictures including its guts when i get a chance. This is the switchboard it came with.

Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: broncodriver99 on October 25, 2017, 12:21:10 PM
What is the wording on the copper tag around the toggle switch and the copper horseshoe around the adjuster knob?
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: basewindow on October 25, 2017, 11:07:26 PM
On the copper switch at the top is: RUN/START

Horseshoe adjuster: LOW - RAISE - HIGH

Down the bottom on each side: COMPOUND/START

Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: broncodriver99 on October 25, 2017, 11:10:12 PM
It sounds a lot like what starfire is describing from the wording on the tags. Sounds like it has the ability to be used as a starting motor and then switched over to generating.
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: basewindow on October 25, 2017, 11:20:11 PM
Only other pic i have. I'll get some more on the weekend.

Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: basewindow on October 28, 2017, 06:43:47 AM
Couple more...
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: basewindow on October 28, 2017, 06:47:10 AM
Inside back of the switchboard.
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: starfire on October 28, 2017, 07:34:25 AM
Scrap it. Its of no use as far as I can tell....  :(
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: basewindow on October 28, 2017, 07:46:32 AM
Whole thing no good? Coming from someone that has no idea, what tells you that?
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: starfire on October 28, 2017, 08:22:34 AM
Firstly, its either a DC motor, or  a DC generator, or both.

The armature windings are very thin, indicating low current.  equals low power...
Theres not a lot of winds either indicating low voltage.
What possible use for this to warrant hooking it up to an engine?
I cant think of one.
Even if its an old 32 volt lighting plant, its still has no present day use...
Unless you just paint it to look at...... but it has no real historic value.
That I can see.
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: AdeV on October 28, 2017, 08:54:30 AM
It might be worth trying http://www.stationary-engine.net/forum/, there's quite a few guys there familiar with olde worlde electrical equipment. Unfortunately, the site appears to be down at the moment, which is most unusual.

I googled Busch, as I'm sure you did, and got nothing, zip, zilch, nada. I wonder if it's an early foreign clone of a Bosch unit. Construction appears simple enough, and the method of operation of the generator is probably simple. If the brushes are OK, you could probably get some output.

That switchboard, on the other hand... looks lethal. If you plan to show this engine, then it's worth keeping (as it's original, presumably), but I'd not bother wiring it up. Or possibly re-wire the innards so the gauges work, but any adjuster should be replaced with something new and insulated... If you plan to make it work for a living, I'd probably ditch the alternator as well as the switchboard & replace with modern components.
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: glort on October 28, 2017, 12:20:46 PM
what tells you that?

" The Force" ??  ::)

Tell you this much, put that switch board on fleabay and attach the term " Steam punk" in the description and I'll bet you will get a stack of bids on it.
Would look freaking awesome on the side of one of my Photobooths and stacks of people are looking for that sort of thing every day.

If you don't like money and have too much already, by all means scrap it. If you want to make some worthwhile cash, fleabay is your friend.
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: broncodriver99 on October 28, 2017, 05:28:12 PM
Being as it came with a 3.5/1 it is likely a 1.5kw unit or less. It appears from the switchboard to be capable of being used as a starter motor which is a plus in my book. Since it appears to be a DC unit, I would think if the voltage is in an acceptable range that it could be used to run a small inverter.

What are you looking to do with it? I would replicate the switch board with modern components, the adjustment and start/run sections at least to make it usable.
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: mike90045 on October 28, 2017, 10:32:24 PM
I love the steampunk idea, get cash for it, and hook up some good modern gear
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: basewindow on October 29, 2017, 09:11:05 PM
Thanks all for your help and suggestions.

I have an small 'Off Grid' place and although I have Solar and Batteries and even a modern (if not problematic) backup  generator, what I'd really have liked (Apart from the simple pleasure of restoring the Lister etc) to do, is to have this as the backup generator.

The Lister is 95% finished, but as I said I have no idea as to this unit or how I'll intergrate it or repair or make it work or what it will produce if it does.

The switchboard looks cool, but I wouldnt intrgrate it into the system, I just hoped it would provide me with some idea as to how the generator/motor functioned. I may clean it up a bit and if I can find similar guages etc, keep it just for effect, if not maybe the fleabay suggestion could help fund another project.

I did apply a 12v battery to the various terminals with no apparent effect.  Could it be 24, 32 or even 48v?

Can anyone give me an idea how these 'Startomatic' units worked together with the engine? For example was the generator/motor hooked permanantly to a battery to auto start (crank) the engine to start, then switched over to generator mode to charge the battery and provide power by the generator?

Cheers,

Cam
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: AdeV on October 30, 2017, 08:18:54 AM
There were a couple of types of Start-o-matic, I think the main difference was DC or AC supply. The typical AC "lighting plant" (the most commonly seen Start-o-Matic for the 5/1 or 6/1 engine) was a 2.5kw alternator attached to the engine (which had "heavy" style flywheels, rather than the more common spoked design). A solenoid attached to the back of the engine operated the decompression lifter and the rack stop, and was normally held (by springs) in the "off" position. Via a control board, 24v batteries were connected to the lighting ring and the engine. When a load was detected (i.e. a light switch turned on), the control board switched 24v onto the starter circuit, which turned the alternator into a starter motor. Simultaneously, the decompression solenoid operated which allowed the fuel rack to open & the exhaust valve to operate as normal. Assuming all was well, the engine would then fire up, and start to "overspin" the alternator, which then switched to generating mode. This generated both 110v or 240v AC single phase, and sufficient DC voltage to recharge the batteries.

The system remained running until the last load on the circuit went off (i.e. the last light turned out), at which point the solenoid was released, shutting off the fuel and operating the decompression lifter, shutting the engine down. It then went back to waiting for a load to appear on the circuit.

Once the start cycle was started by a load, it would continue until the engine started to generate (even if the load was immediately removed); it would also only motor for a certain period of time, e.g. if the engine had no fuel, so it didn't flatten the batteries or burn out the starter circuit. This was all achieved using bi-metallic strips and other black magic... no computers back then!

The DC SOMs are slightly different in that the motor/dynamo are directly coupled to the engine, the engine itself is normally a CD or possibly a 9/1 (JP1) model rather than the CS we know & love, and they often had an additional "solenoid" (more of a motor really) attached to the compression changeover valve, so once started they could automatically switch over to low compression.
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: BruceM on October 30, 2017, 05:13:32 PM
Enjoyed your very well written description of the SOM actions and mechanisms very much, AdeV.  Thanks! 
Amazing how Lister achieved a full automatic start and stop genset with the technology of the day. I really admire how they distilled the functions and actuators to the minimum.

I've read that Lister also had a 110VDC lighting set via large series string of wet lead batteries, charged via engine/generator.  I'd love to learn more about that.  It was apparently only sold for a few years.
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: basewindow on October 30, 2017, 08:33:30 PM
Thanks for the explanation of the SOM. Was wondering how the decompression and rack issue was overcome with engine start. So it was a truly automatic system and would even detect a load such as a light being turned on etc to start. I just assumed you'd have to flick a start switch on a board to start the unit first. Very impressive.

So the DC head units were in general 24v?
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: AdeV on October 31, 2017, 02:44:08 PM
Thanks for the explanation of the SOM. Was wondering how the decompression and rack issue was overcome with engine start. So it was a truly automatic system and would even detect a load such as a light being turned on etc to start. I just assumed you'd have to flick a start switch on a board to start the unit first. Very impressive.

So the DC head units were in general 24v?

Hence the name Start-o-Matic :D There were manually operated versions as well, although I don't know if they were ever fitted with the CS engines (I've seen them with CDs, CEs and various petrol/paraffin/TVO engines).

I'm guessing a bit here - I think the alternator has 2 completely separate windings: A 240V (or 120V possibly), and a 24V. I'm also assuming the 24V side could be "driven", so basically it swapped from being a motor to a generator when up to speed. How any of that side of it worked, I have no idea...

Inside the house powered by a Lister SOM lighting plant; when you switched on a light, it came on dimly (50VDC), then brightened when the alternator took over. So you could tell if the engine hadn't started (the light stayed dim) or the batteries were flat (no light at all), at which point I assume you grumbled, put on 15 layers of clothing, clumped out to the shed & cranked the thing by hand, having diagnosed what the issue was by candle light...
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: BruceM on October 31, 2017, 02:54:44 PM
Adev- are you sure about 50V?  They'd have to have a notoriously unreliable mechanicial vibrator circuit to make 50V from 24V so that's why that seems less likely to me. 24V would make the 110V element glow...
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: dieselgman on October 31, 2017, 04:06:55 PM
We have all the schematics and manuals for a wide range of the SOM sets... they do vary quite a bit in designs for different engines and time-periods. The "black-magic" description made me laugh Ade! I do understand where you are coming from... to look at the components and wiring, it usually looks a mess!

dieselgman
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: AdeV on November 01, 2017, 02:20:46 PM
Adev- are you sure about 50V?  They'd have to have a notoriously unreliable mechanicial vibrator circuit to make 50V from 24V so that's why that seems less likely to me. 24V would make the 110V element glow...

Whoops, brain fart, I meant 24v of course!
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: AdeV on November 01, 2017, 02:21:55 PM
We have all the schematics and manuals for a wide range of the SOM sets... they do vary quite a bit in designs for different engines and time-periods. The "black-magic" description made me laugh Ade! I do understand where you are coming from... to look at the components and wiring, it usually looks a mess!

I've got an original S-o-M unit, with both the alternator top box & the control unit. As far as I can determine, it's either witchcraft, or operated by spiders...
Title: Re: Identify this?
Post by: basewindow on November 02, 2017, 10:01:09 PM
Now the spider part might just have some merit to it. The first thing to greet me when I took the rocker cover off the Lister was one of the largest huntsman spiders i have ever seen. It was stuck (thankfully dead) in a pool off grease and oil. Think a large number of things in my shed are operated by spiders.....