Lister Engine Forum

Alternative fuels => Waste Vegetable Oil => Topic started by: glort on April 14, 2017, 11:50:08 AM

Title: waste oil use over view.
Post by: glort on April 14, 2017, 11:50:08 AM

Taken from posts elsewhere in response to a request for info on my practices with waste oil......


My relevant experience is running waste oils for over 14.5 years in my everyday vehicle(s) and never having to replace a worn injector pump yet and only a set of injectors that I was told needed doing when I bought the Vehicle and eventually I got a stuck injector. Put new injectors in the thing and it ran like a stung cat. I turned the IP down quite a bit and it still went the same as before.

Obviously one does not run filthy fuel through their engine unless they are terminally stupid. I guess that's a misconception of people whom have never used waste oil but have made up their minds to rubbish the idea anyway.
I filter my oil CLEANER than the standard for Pump Diesel.
I also make sure the oil is dried as Veg oil unlike Diesel can hold suspended water and nearly every of the hundreds of lots I have picked up Has had suspended water in it.  I dry it as a matter of course. The fuel I produce is so dry that you can add 1 or 2 drops of water to a cupful and test it and it still passes.

 I don't run garbage through my engine, not that stupid no matter what some people who don't like the idea want to make up.
Clean fuel is one of the proclivities of people that run waste oil.  The mind set is not to tip rubbish in their tanks but rather to go to over the top lengths to make the fuel more clean than standards require. Many also heat the oil to thin it which in a lot of cases is unnecessary if one looks at the viscosity standards issued by the pump manufacturers. They also start on Diesel and shut off on it to avoid problems that are more imagined than real in most cases. Myself I run straight Veg oil with the addition of 5-10% ULP on occasion.  5% ulp brings the ignition timing of the oil back closer to that of diesel which is helpful as most people don't re time the engine for oil.  In winter if it gets real cold I may add up to 10% ULP to help mainly with starting.
Most of the time I don't worry. If the engine takes a few more cranks to light off it gives the thicker sump oil bit more of a chance to prime and come up to pressure when the engine does light off. Seems many people want the thing to light soon as they look at the key but having been involved in racing where you wound the engine over to get oil pressure before you switched in the ignition, I tend to think slow starts are a plus not a problem.
Thing always starts in a predictable manner so that's all that counts to me.

I have built a small, compact and cheap to construct processor that I merely tip the fuel in, set it going and come back 30-90min later and it is done. I then pump the fuel into 25L drums or an IBC and it's ready for use. I change the on board fuel filter on my car every 6 Months as a preventative as I get the filters for nothing anyway. They are a little underrated for the full power of my vehicle so I keep them clean to prevent loss of top end power.
As I have the engine on my vehicle Dialed up for extra grunt, I also have been running a DIY water injection system to remove any deposits from my engine. I have only taken down one small China Diesel due to a Cracked Cylinder ( that of course all the Naysayers will blame the fuel for in an attempt to prove their point) which I also ran WI on.  The Piston, Head and ring lands were so clean they looked like they had been buffed with a clean rag.
Lots of people whom don't know anything about WI rubbish that will all sorts of fear mongering but reamin ignorant to the fact it's been used for decades on everything from Cars to Aircraft to ship engines.  It's still Currently used on a LOT of ship engines and BMW just put it on one of their performance Vehicles.

In doing WVO for so long I have seen all types of excuses and BS about waste oil wrecking pumps and engines and all the rest of it. The people whom do run it, and I have several personal friends I see all the time running it, have never had any such experience. It's the old thing of sledge what you don't know and believe every negative thing your read to defend your position.  That's more than fine with me, if everyone was on this then oil would be hard to find and I wouldn't be able to enjoy it the way I do.  I have no reason to want everyone doing this and apart from the misinformation people like yourself spread, really don't care who uses it or who does not.

I have heard a lot about oil killing engines and shortening their life but the thing that never fails to make me laugh at such attitudes is no one can ever tell me how long an engine should last.  How can they say it shortens their life if they can't say how long they should last in the first place? The ones that have thrown numbers out there I have always beaten substantially.

I have also been running waste oil in my Lister, Hatz, Lombardini, Ruggerini and 4 Chinese Vertical and horizontal stationary engines for well over 10 years. More recently I have been Blending it with Diesel in my Fathers Iseki Tractor.  Only comment from him who doesn't know I have been putting it in the thing is it has been running a lot more quietly and smoothly lately.

I wouldn't recommend waste oil in electronically injected engines but for mechanically pumped units there is zero problems. All the IP's I have come across on stationary engines, (and I have a few of them now!) are all basically the same simple plunger types. They are tough as nails and almost impossible to break. That said, I am also aware of a company in Germany that are making conversion kits for modern electronic engines to run Veg oil. From what I can see, there is no change to the fuel system at all and they just run some different fuel mapping and bigger fuel pumps or boosters probably to handle the extra Viscosity.  I might look into this some more with a view of buying a cheap electronic injected Vehicle for the Mrs to run round in and see how it goes. Even if I blend with 50% Diesel, still halves the cost of fuel.  Better alternative would be just go buy drums of Jet fuel as it's cheaper and thinner than diesel anyway therefore reducing the viscosity further for a given amount than Diesel.

There is no doubt that waste oils given proper pre filtering are a perfectly viable fuel and cause None of the problems people accuse them of.  I have yet to see or hear of a single engine failure caused by veg use. Yeah, there are loads of accusations but when you look at the cases, you always find they are nothing to do with the oil at all and a little further digging turns up loads of cases of the same engine that has never been near oil having the exact same problem.

I Fill my 200L drum manually from the settling tanks because I want the exercise. Takes about 10 min walking back and forth and filling and emptying. I can pump it, I just prefer to not to be too lazy and it gives me some resistance and cardio exercise I can well use.
From there I set the pump going which circulates the oil and filters it and dries it as it goes. In ideal conditions it can be done in 15 Min while I'm doing other things.  Mainly depends on the humidity and how wet the oil is. Filtering doesn't take much and the turnover of oil through the filter is high.  Mostly I give it a min of 90 minutes. Once the processor is loaded I can do whatever I want. Don't have to be there, I can go out and let it do its thing.  If I have to process when it's wet and cold and shitty, I might let it run all night.  haven't had to do that in a while. When the oil is done I change a valve on the processor and pump the oil into the drums through the filter so there is no possible way any molecule hasn't been through at least once.
I used to do a water test on every batch before decanting it but I haven't bothered for a long time now. I know the processor, been doing it so long,  I can read the weather and the oil and on the odd occasion I do a test for shits and giggles, it always passes with flying colors.  Of course many people don't dry their oil and still have no problem.  I like to be careful and as I have the processor set up to filter and dry and it takes no extra effort, why not.

The only time I don't dry my oil is when I'm interstate and running short and have to do a pickup on the road.  I can look at what is there and know whether it's OK or to look for another source.  Being that this oil goes in with the other I am certain of the quality of, any moisture content is going to be reduced a lot anyway.  Being I am on the road, the oil will be burnt quickly and not have a chance to sit round long enough to cause corrosion or growth problems in any event. Fats hold a lot more water than straight clear oil so as long as I don't pump slop, I'm safe as houses.

If I look at the cost of Diesel here, been around $1.20 a liter and my hands on time, call it say an hour all up to process 180L, ( which is way over estimating,) it's not hard to work out that I'm pretty much on doctors wages if I considered my time as so many harp on about. I don't consider it because obviously this is my hobby not my living and if I did it full time I'd make  a better than average wage with it.  Of course the other thing to consider is if I was working that hour in a regular job, I'd also be paying tax at better than 33%.  I do an interstate trip of 2500km all up every year and it usualy costs me about $20 in fuel because I will add some petrol to the oil when I get there because I always go in winter and want to stop any fat dropout in the cooler temps and the thing is loaded so I want the better performance.

One thing that hit home to my Son years ago was when he was doing his practice driving hours. Here learners are required to do 120 Hours practical driving experience under supervision before they can get their provisional license to drive on their own. My son had his way before any of his friends.
We would go driving any time we felt like it,  wherever we wanted. Frequently I would pick him up from his burger flipping job and we'd go driving for an hour or 2 depending on how he felt.  Often we would go on oil runs to make the trips more worthwhile. I had more oil than I could use from this and passed on the proceeds to a couple of mates whom never had so much in reserve ever before.

When my son got his licence before most of his friends including those that were up to a year older, he started asking why they hadn't got their hours up yet?  The reply was that unlike him, they couldn't rack up 6 or 12 hours a week driving around just to get hours up, they could only get their hours in at an opportune time when the family had to go somewhere because their parents could not afford the fuel just for them to drive around.  We never thought of this but when we worked it out, we could see the significant expense involved if we were buying fuel.  If we had to buy it, we would never been able to afford it either!  My son always was a bit dismissive of my oily proclivities until that time and realization of the cost of fuel set in.

Of course once he had his license and was going out, I hardly ever saw my truck. He always took that and left his car because it saved him the expense of fuel.  Of course all his mates wanted him to run them around as well.  At first I was annoyed he made a welter of it but then I realised while he was driving, he wasn't boozing up like a lot of them so I was happy.
Being a smarter kid he also took advantage of the free fuel situation.  A group of them wanted to go away for an end of school celebration.  My son said he would provide the transport and everyone else could cover his share of accommodation, food and drink.  As part of the trip was camping, he also threw in the sweetner of my covered trailer so they could take all the crap they wanted.  Being the truck is a 7 seater, it was an offer too good to refuse for the other 6 so my boy got the trip for free basically.  I filled the tank on the truck and put another 200L in the trailer and they went everywhere they wanted and beyond.

 I have a small Pool heater with a converted burner I made which I circulate the water through and into a very admittedly bogan looking car radiator at the back of the house with a couple of fans on it turned around. This is because the outlets of the radiator face the wrong way and it's easier and neater to run the hoses straight out than put bends in them. Having a straight shot with the fans into the room makes for better heat dispersal in the house. I was in the process of making a cover for it so it looked better but it's become a talking point with friends and visitors now so I'm not worried.
I can push as low as about 7Kw of heat which can be a bit much but as low as the burner is capable or some completely impractical output like around 80KW.  Could do significantly more if I increased the size of the Hoses from  the heat exchanger. The electrical consumption of this setup is under 300W
The next thing I want to look into is an absorption cooling system so I can cool the house as well as heat it by burning oil.

For fuel for my burners and heaters, the only processing I do with that is strain it through some felt.  All I have to do is get the larger particles out and it's good to go. The Burners I build have no fine jets or orifices to clog so the once through the material is enough and a settle reduces any water content also to be of no issue.  I tend to burn the waste engine oil people give me and I get from my own vehicles and my fathers business.
Sometimes I use it in the stationary engines and the China diesels particularly don't care one bit what they are fed.

I guess if you have a bad experience with something you'll always be adverse to it but if you like something and embrace it to work out the problems and solutions for them, then not only do the problems go away but you can have a lot of fun and enjoy the benefits they offer. To me and a lot of other people that is a feeling of security and independence and really getting something valuable for nothing.

 I love my diesels, all of them and the bottom line is they along with the waste fuel I run them on has given my family and I a better quality of life and indulgences we would not have been able to afford otherwise. It's given me a hobby and interest for a lot of years that has in fact paid hugely rather than been an expense. The exercise I get carting fuel drums around and doing things with this seems like fun rather than the chore of deliberate exercise.


Here are a couple of Vids from a while back that show how I process my oil and engines running on it as well as one of my many burners.
I still filter my oil the same way as the results are excellent and the setup works well for me. Last vid is one of my many wast oil burners I build for a whole range of purposes and configurations.
Next one I'm planning I'm going to aim for 1200Kw and I think If I can get a petrol powered blower to supply enough air, it should do that very easily.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQL5ff9ICUs[/youtube]   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQL5ff9ICUs

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUE1RQRAXlg[/youtube]   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUE1RQRAXlg

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2re80yF4[/youtube]    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2re80yF4

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt9xvB_hmWk&t=8s[/youtube]    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt9xvB_hmWk&t=8s

 



Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: 38ac on April 14, 2017, 02:51:42 PM
Interesting, I dont run my engines enough to spend what is required to burn waste oil. I do however heat my shop with a Lanair waste oil furnace and it saves me enough to by all my fuel needs for the diesels and then some.
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: dax021 on April 15, 2017, 07:15:44 PM
Thanks Glort, nicely detailed write up. I've got some WVO settling at the moment and I'm busy making a filter plant on your design.  Will be trying it in a couple of weeks time.
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: BruceM on April 15, 2017, 09:43:52 PM
The filter/drying drum process sure is simple! 
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: dax021 on April 16, 2017, 12:35:02 PM
Hi Glort, how do those plastic irrigation type valves handle the heat?

BruceM, sounds like you have more on your mind.  Is there more to it than just this, and is the complicated part just starting?  I was just going to chuck it in the SR2 after this filtering stage.  Have I missed something?

Ed, waiting for you jump in sometime!  I have also read all your threads, by the way.

Still learning,
Peter
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: dieselgman on April 16, 2017, 03:41:44 PM
It will be interesting to see how the SR handles the alternative fuel since the SR uses direct injection and also a much different injector nozzle type (multi-orifice rather than pintle). If your filtration is perfect and RUG mixture is consistent and correct, I don't see any major problems. However, the SR is a MUCH lighter machine than the CS and could quickly suffer if it is unable to fully burn your fuel mixture. With just a slight nozzle problem, I have seen these frequently fully choked with carbon running on only clean diesel.

Good luck with your experiment! I look forward to reading about your results here!

dieselgman
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: glort on April 16, 2017, 03:49:10 PM
Hi Glort, how do those plastic irrigation type valves handle the heat?

A hell of a lot better than people give them Credit for!  :0)

I test all my plastic fittings by boiling them in a pot of water on the stove. If they don't melt, they are fine.
To avoid getting the pump too hot,I try to limit the temp of the oil to 70oC although I have had it above 80 several times.  Run that burner a bit hard, get distracted for a minute and there you are!
Makes for damn fast drying though!

As I run the system lower than I have tested the fittings to, Never a problem.

Poor Ed, He'd have a fit if he saw the engine oil quality I tipped on a bonfire to burn Rubbish today on the farm.  No sump gunk here, this stuff was thin, clean, no sludge to be seen.
 Even I felt a pang of regret just using it as fire starter.
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: glort on April 16, 2017, 04:00:32 PM
However, the SR is a MUCH lighter machine than the CS and could quickly suffer if it is unable to fully burn your fuel mixture. With just a slight nozzle problem, I have seen these frequently fully choked with carbon running on only clean diesel.


Which is exactly why Ed and I are such fans of water injection.
It cures pretty much all coking and carbon issues in the engine and exhaust.
Does not need to be at all complicated, sophisticated or expensive, just get some water in there and let it do the magic.  I wouldn't Run any alternative fuels in any Diesel without it. You don't always need it but it's cheap, reliable insurance against a lot of problems even if you are running that horrible, expensive stuff from the servo.

There are different theroys concerning veg/ WMO coking, most to do with having the fuel pre heated.
I think that is a load of Twaddle especially in simple mechanical Pumps like on listers and Chinese Diesels.
The real key factors I believe are injection rate and timing.

Over fuel the thing and it will Foul ( without WI)  Run it with the timing too far off ( which is usually retarded given oils slower light off rate) and that can cause trouble as well. Goes without saying your Injector needs to be in good health.
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: BruceM on April 16, 2017, 05:05:31 PM
Glort-  What do you think is the low end of temperature needed to dry the oil by your method?  I'm wondering because here at 5600 feet in AZ solar heating is more practical than elsewhere.  It's low humidity here, so I'm hoping 50-54F (Edit should read 50-54C)  temperatures might work; a few coils of 5/8 irrigation tube in parallel, covered with film come to mind as something very cheap to build.

Yesterday I ran a small air compressor, then my washing machine on my DIY sine inverter design...so I now have a viable power source for running your oil processor design pump and fan.  (I've had to run the Listeroid for AC, no matter how small the load, for the last 10 years.)  I already have a small pump which may be suitable.

Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: dax021 on April 16, 2017, 05:07:46 PM
Thanks everyone, will try my hand at a WI system one of these days (Ed gave a pretty good description in his chronicles).  As for timing, I know diddly squat about how to go about that.

I will keep you up to date once I start.
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: dieselgman on April 16, 2017, 07:03:51 PM
Timing is easy to change on the SR (addition or subtraction of shims under the pumps)... somewhat more difficult to determine though. On the 2-cylinder you will see TDC as well as Z (firing point) marks for each cylinder stamped into the flywheel... the firing point can be matched to the "spill point" for each pump. The Lister method calls for removing the delivery valve, installing a capillary tube, and rotating the cam back and forth until you can see the exact point where fuel starts and stops flowing through the pump. The manuals have a more detailed description of the process.

dieselgman
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: glort on April 17, 2017, 11:32:05 AM
Glort-  What do you think is the low end of temperature needed to dry the oil by your method? 


I'd say the only heat required is the oil be liquid.
Heat is not a necessity, it's an aid in speeding up the process.

The moisture will evaporate more readily the more the oil is above ambient temp but it's not needed.  Plenty of aeration is the real key.  I only heat in winter when the Humidity is High... which yes, it can be here. In summer, I never heat the oil although I might put the drum in the sun.  The pumps I have used always impart some heat to the oil so it is not at ambient for long but not far above it either.
 was
Humidity plays a BIG part in how fast oil Drys.  A few times I have dried oil the Humidity was really low. Threw me off.  Did a test shortly after loading the oil to see how wet it was and get an idea of the drying time and it was already dry... which I didn't really believe.  When I worked it was s was, I got 1000L through that day.

If you want some heat, you can always build an oil burner and usesome of the product to dry the rest.
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: buickanddeere on April 17, 2017, 03:42:32 PM
  Climate plays a factor. Here #2 summer diesel gells into wax on the fuel filters in the winter.
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: BruceM on April 17, 2017, 04:00:46 PM
Thanks Glort.  I didn't realize WVO processing could be done in such an elegantly simple manner. 
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: glort on April 17, 2017, 05:42:42 PM
  Climate plays a factor. Here #2 summer diesel sells into wax on the fuel filters in the winter.

Yeah, I couldn't stand living in some frozen for 3+ months of the year hell hole either. I like sun and warmth and the only snow I see to be when I drive 5 hours to the alpine region..... And I haven't been inclined to do that in 30+ years.
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: glort on April 18, 2017, 02:06:16 AM
Thanks Glort.  I didn't realize WVO processing could be done in such an elegantly simple manner. 

As I have said, people over complicate things in this game massively. For some reason that escapes me, people think that things MUST be complicated and expensive in order to work. Show them something simple and they ignorantly dismiss it.

I came up with the Jet bubbling as I call it watching my kids in the pool with the hose. They liked to squirt the jet of water into the pool breaking the surface and making themselves a Spa in the process.
I saw how much air went through the water and clearly it was massively more than any aquarium pump as was the standard to aerate and dry the oil.  People doing that leave it days and then you have air stones and pumps and more expense and complication.  I tried firing a jet of oil into the drum and it worked just like water although needs a little " Rougher " jet when it's cold to get the surface tension sheared and broken so as to entrain the air.
I guess i'm probably putting thousands rather than hundreds ( or tens in the case of a lot of smaller pumps ) through the oil and that is why the drying is so efficient.
Doing the filtering at the same time makes it even easier and more efficient.

I have a squirter line on the pump and a filter line which the return also has a jet squirter on.  To start if te oil is cold and might have fats I run it just in drying mode at first. when the oil ( in winter) is above fat melt temp, I thin open the valve for the oil to filter. If the oil has been running say an hour or so and the oil is still wet, I know it's filtered so I shut off the filter line and make all the oil squirt for more aeration and drying.
If it's a low humidity day and the oil has dried fast, I turn the squirter off and run all the oil through the filter.

The outlet of the filter comes off the return fitting and I use that to pump the oil into the drums ready for use.  I get a strange satisfaction out of seeing that clear, shiny oil coming out of that contraption and no matter how many times I do it there is always a sense of excitement and security in having my own energy reserves and independence.
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: veggie on April 18, 2017, 10:37:06 PM
Thanks for the write up Glort. Very interesting.
One point to make about diesel and WVO...
Different geographies dictate varied procedures. You mentioned that there is no need to start/stop on diesel. That my work fine in OZ but here in Canada and the northern USA it's quite different. If you forget to switch back to diesel before shutting down, a person can get stuck with plugged fuel lines when the nights dip to zero C.
The WVO in fuel filters can turn to 80 weight gear oil in cold weather.    ;D

I know of a few fellows who dare to run WVO in the early spring and late autumn here in the great north country, but very few people do it. And they suffer the consequences when they forget to switch back to diesel before parking for the night.

cheers mate !
Veggie
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: glort on April 19, 2017, 05:16:35 AM
If you forget to switch back to diesel before shutting down, a person can get stuck with plugged fuel lines when the nights dip to zero C.

True enough.

I HAVE on several occasions now had Straight WVO in the tank and lines down to -3C and have been able to start with little problem in my current Vehicle.
I wouldn't recommend  SVO in winter though unless you know and understand the variables.

My merc had difficulty starting at anything around 10o or under. Both the Nissans I have now aren't at all perturbed. I sense they have higher compression than the merc did.
Another significant thing is Drying your oil. Veg oil unlike Diesel WILL hold dissolved water. Obviously that makes the oil more prone to freezing up. With DRY oil, the freeze point and viscosity to it is much lower.
Adding some ULP helps keep that freeze point lower. I did tests years ago with mixing different concentrations of ULP in the oil and tested Dried oil and non dried.  The undried straight oil was solid enough to invert the cup and not spill a drop just in the refrigerator.  The dried oil was on the gel point but would still go through my Mercs tank crushing pump.  The dried oil with 5 and 10% ULP were clear liquid with no dicenable thickening.
I got the Fridge down to 0c and they were the same.  The undried straight oil was like margarine by then.

In veg circles they say to get a disposable cup of YOUR oil, leave it outside or in the garage where you vehicle is in your conditions and see what happens. If you come out in the mornings and its solid, you know it's no good in your Vehicle. If it's liquid, you know you are OK. You can do the same with adding ULP/Kero or diesel.

I think the important thing is to TEST under YOUR conditions.  The oil you get may be solid at 5 oC. It may also be liquid at -5.  Don't worry about what the other guys said, find out for yourself whats going on.

I have also found many people will crank a diesel to try and start it till the battery is flat or the starter or cables are glowing red. I used to carry a small bottle of metho or Methanol in my merc. If it wouldn't start within a reasonable time, I lifted the air cleaner lid, threw a small capful of meth ( or petrol if I ran out) glowed it up again and wound her over. NEVER in 3 years did either car fail to start in the dead of winter or anytime else.
The Nissan don't care. Mid winter, straight oil, worst that will happen is it will take 2 sec longer .Gives the oil pressure a chance to come up in my view.
The other thing if you are at home is to pour boiling water over the IP and Fuel Filter. Takes a LOT of hot water to get a decent temp rise but if you had solid oil, may get you out of trouble.

Dried Oil with  10% ULP will give you a very good safety margin over Straight non dried oil that is for sure.   :0)
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: veggie on April 19, 2017, 02:58:19 PM
Hi Glort,

Have you had a chance to play around with "blending"?
I have had good luck with 80%wvo / 20% Unleaded petrol.
I purchased a viscosity meter some years back and started playing with various methods of getting wvo down to a similar viscosity as diesel.
One mix that seems to run well in my truck was 70% WVO, 20%, Petrol, 10% kerosene. I also added a few ounces of diesel octane booster additive (costs only pennies per batch).
Admittedly, this mix costs more than straight WVO but is does allow cooler weather starting for those who only have a one tank system and it's still much cheaper than buying Dino Diesel.

Veggie
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: BruceM on April 19, 2017, 04:53:57 PM
I'm confused, Veggie.  Glort has been discussing the merits of ULP added to WVO regularly in his posts for the last year or two, and also in his prior post, yet you ask if he has tried blending???  Am I missing something or did you?

Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: veggie on April 19, 2017, 09:38:34 PM

Ha ! I probably missed some of the other posts regarding this subjet. Sorry BruceM

Veggie
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: glort on April 20, 2017, 08:02:14 AM

Guess my long winded posts must be more boring than even I thought!   ;D

In veg oil circles in it's heyday I was probably the biggest proponent of blending out there.  Blending seemed to be the poor cousin to 2 tank conversions and Biodiesel.  I thought it was the best of both worlds.
No 2 tank systems to much around with, no extra processing of the oil... at least nothing like the work that goes into Bio.

I have done conversions, quite a few for friends whom where not mechanical y confident as well as a few of my own Vehicles and I have made literally tens of thousands of liters of Bio.  I know what's involved in both things intimately and I still think the poor cousin being blending is the way to go where you can.

Again, coming back to the  theroy if it's not complicated, expensive time consuming etc, it can't be any good, I think one of the reasons blending never got the air time the other 2 did was money.
back in the heyday there were a lot of people selling 2 tank conversion kits and parts, just as many selling Bio production kits and parts and they were all making money for Jam.
What is there to spend in Blending?  Nothing more than drying and filtering your oil with the sock filters and a fish tank pump.  No easy serious profits to be made there.
And again, no complication, expense or glory factor and having all this modification or equipment to show your friends.

Wen I started out I was using 20% ULP in the oil.  Worked great for like 3 weeks.  Then I had trouble.  The weather suddenly warmed up real fast with some out of season hot days and the car wouldn't go.  having half a Clue I worked out it was vapor lock or at least air in the lines somewhere.  The car was heat soaking when I stopped for a short while and the ULP with the ethanol in it ( 10%) was boiling out.  At first I did the mental arithmetic of how much alchol was in the mix and thought it wasn't enough to do anything. Then I thought some more and worked out just 1Ml of boiled Booze would make 1litre of air in the system.  And it got worse.
I was running this in a Merc which have a pump on them that would suck a golf ball through garden hose.

 Pull a vac on a liquid and what happens?  It boils out at a lower temp. Alcohol boils at 70o C which is way below the temp you'd expect to find ouner the bonnet on a hot day when it's already 30oc+ so the booze could have been cooking off at 50  quite easily.  Wonder the thing ran at all really.
Solution was simple but 2 step. Back off the ULP and don't go anywhere near that alcohol laced rubbish.  I think that is garbage fuel in any engine and has given me trouble in every application I have used it.
As " Pure"" Petrol is getting harder to get thanks to the omnipresent " Environmental" cry babies, I found a way to treat regular petrol to eliminate the alcohol and vapor problems.
Wash it. Literally. With water.

I put 20L of ULP in a 25L drum and top it off with water. Give it a good shake and in about 10 min there is a clear separation line.  I give it about half an hour for good measure and then Drain the booze from the bottom or pump the Petrol off the top.  Alcohol is water based and Miscible. Petrol is oil based and not. The water holds the Alcohol and the petrol  is purified.  Works and works well.
But what do you then do with the water?
You put it in the water injection system of course because thats' where you want the alcohol and it allows the water to give the engine a nice kick in the pants  with the extra fuel value you are injecting.  The percentage is low so when I want a strong mix for the WI system, I go buy the E-85 and instead of washing the alcohol from the petrol, I was the petrol from the alcohol.  Same thing, 20L e-85, 5L water. Now you get a heap of clear and a little pink instead of the other way around. Drain off the booze, Dilute to the engines taste with water and all good. The petrol can go in your oil for blending or the lawn mower which won't attract moisture out of the air and corrode the shit out of everything.  E-85 is the cheapest way I can buy alcohol for my WI system and takes very little effort to purify this way.

E-10 - E- whatever creates vapor Problems when Blending, pulls water out the air in stationary engines, gives crap economy in vehicles and stuffed all the seals in the fuel tap and carby of My Harley.  Not  even good for burning weeds as it's too volatile. Cleaning it gives 2 valueable products and no waste..... or problems.

I have found that 20% ULP in the vehicles I have owned is too much.  It creates a loss of power and causes the engines to rattle through overly advanced timing.
People denounce blending with ULP saying it makes the mixture hard to light because Diesel works on cetane, the ability to light on compression and Petrol works on octane, the ability to resist compression ignition. They therefore argue that Petrol in a diesel is a bad thing.
Typically, they parrot the same thing the last guy said without ever thinking the theory through for themselves.
I have played with high performance engines.  at 10:1 in a spark engine, your well aware of trying to keep pre ignition under control.  With computers that can pull the heck out of the timing you can get away with it but still 12:1 would be way out there on the ragged and unreliable edge.  A Diesel at the lower mid compression range is going to be 16:1.  many run around 22:1 and some cutting edge engines are closer to 30:1.
If it takes " trickery" to get a 12:1 engine to not eat itself, how do people think that same fuel is going to resist or be slower to light off in an engine doing 16:1  and above?
It is illogical and makes no sense. It's also the very property I count on when I used it in oil to bring the WVO back closer to the light off point of regular diesel on engines that have not had the timing changed.

I like blending with ULP for several reasons..... It's cheap, it's thinner than anything else, it's available and it helps wit the timing as mentioned.
Given the choice, I'd blend with Kero or turps.  Their Drawbacks for me are nearly impossible to get in bulk as from a servo and costs double or more than ULP when and if you can get it.
Blending with Diesel is not great to me.  You are starting with the base viscosity  you are aiming for not something thinner. To me, blending ith diesel does not  give you thin oil, it gives you thick Diesel.  It would be impractical to bring oil down to diesel viscosity with ulp  but I would say you would do a better job in the real world than you would with Dino.

I don't blend with ULP over 15% I also found triple blends to work the best when things get real tough..... WVO/ ULP/ Kero-turps.  Once I hit the 15% ULP, the rest would be kero from there.
Mercedes advised up to 40% ULP in their old OM617 Diesels ( till late '80's  )  but the temp for that was similar, about -30C.  Their rules as I found in practice was back off the ULP as the temp gets warmer.
No need to run 15% in summer, 5% may be fine.  Listen to what your vehicle is telling you and get a feel for it.  I say anything over 5% looses power for the benifit of thinner oil and easier starts. Once the engine is ru8nning and warmed up, over 5% ulp is detrimental to performance.

Mate of mine works on military aircraft and get what is drained from their tanks which is Jet-A1 or JP4 ( or is it JP-3 ?? Can't remember now but it's glorified Kero with additives, anti corrosion and Cold from memory)  He " reverse blends" as I say and puts something like 30% oil in the jet fuel. He's running a late model common rail diesel on this mix and has about 4 years now with no problem. He reckons the thing runs far better on this than pump diesel.  I tried regular blending with the drums he gives me from time to time and it works great. I also went to the airport and got some Jet-A1 but it was still more pricey than petrol and the anti cold additives ( Liquid to -40 , yes MINUS 40) make the stuff hard on your hands and leave a thick powdery residue if you spill or splash any.

As mentioned I have also blended with Turps which came in the form of a drum of " Printers press wash". Used o get than from a place that got it by the IBC and always left close to 100L in the bottom of each drum.
that was good to blend with, just like kerosene. Tested paint thinners, much like weak ULP but too expensive for practical use unless you could get dregs from drums or the like.

To me blending is a very over looked and under utilized way of running oil . It requires virtually no extra work over just filtering and drying the oil and you can " Tune" it to the weather and conditions fpr best starting and performance of your engine. 
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: veggie on April 20, 2017, 03:03:09 PM
Thanks Glort,

Regarding ULP (Called RUG here in Canada), I found the same vapor issues as you, but in a different way.
My particular Listeroid model (smaller GM90 series) is a direct injection engine. I was attempting to drop the wvo viscosity to a level where the smaller injector nozzles could still provide a spray similar to regular diesel fuel.
During my viscosimeter testing with various blends, I realized that all my tests were being done at room temperature.
It then occurred to me that to get a true value of what viscosity my blend would be when injected, I need to warm the mixture to engine temperature and then test the viscosity.
Warming the various blends to 190f certainly did have a big effect on the wvo viscosity, however it also caused the blends with 20% gasoline to bubble violently and release a lot of vapors. So, unless under pressure from the injection system, ULP blends will be volatile. I can understand your point about gasoline vapor becoming an issue on some engines.

cheers,
Veggie
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: Tom on April 20, 2017, 05:28:24 PM
When blending we also need to recognize that RUG and ULP are blended different for region and season. Vegie's summer blend RUG may not boil at 190F. I'm still sitting on 110 gal of hydrogenated soybean oil that is a thick glop at room temp. I might try drying some and seeing if it clears up.
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: BruceM on April 21, 2017, 01:23:15 AM
Glort's solution of burning the washed gasoline alcohol/water for diesel water injection...wow.  Very truly green guy. 



Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: glort on April 21, 2017, 04:16:36 AM
When blending we also need to recognize that RUG and ULP are blended different for region and season. Vegie's summer blend RUG may not boil at 190F.

I'm not aware of variations in summer to winter petrol but that means nothing.
Comes back to what I say though, it's important to test things in YOUR situation and not just do what the last guy parroted.

I still think 20% ULP/RUG is too high in any engine I have tested  and apart from cold starting, I couldn't see a reason why to go that high.  For a stationary engine in extreme cold, I'd 2 tank it.  A " Hot" mix for starting and a running mix with 5% or straight oil.  I would probably triple blend the start mix. 50% winter Diesel, ( or Kero if you could get it)  40% oil, 10% ULP.
You don't need valves or anything fancy on a stationary engine for 2 tanking it.  Just a T piece with a valve each side so you turn on or off each tank.

I would also say that blending  in above freezing temps on a stationary Diesel with plunger type pumps is unnecessary.  They are more than strong enough to pump anything that will flow along a fuel line.
As odd as it seems ( to me anyway)  Viscosity has little to do with spray pattern through the injector. This is also a big fear in the veg world but outside of there, like in Diesel Mechanics circles, it's well known.
I suspect that as any old Diesel injector cracks at 20K + PSI or above, the pressure is so great viscosity differences are over whelmed. Could be that the spray pattern is so fine to start with as well it makes no difference.
the greatest viscosity change in oil is in the first 40oC.  IE, from 0-40o, the viscosity changes something like 60-80% ( forget exactly)  In the next 100+ the viscosity only changes 20-40% beyond that which is about 5% over all.  People always try to have their oil as hot as possible going into the IP but it is neither necessary or I wonder if the best thing for the pump. Some pumps rely on the fuel for Cooling and others have the engine oil running right through them which means the pump temp will be far more dependent on the engine temp through the oil than they would be on the fuel temp.

All I can say is I have run unheated oil in my truck for the last 5+ years and never had a problem and never run hot oil in a stationary engine and had no problem there either and I have run it in everything from the lister to the little China Diesel.  One may be able to look up the specs for their pump which will give the max centistrokes ( Viscosity) the pump will handle. I remember looking at it for the Bosch pump on my Merc and it was amazingly high. Certainly beyond what oil could ever be and still flow down a fuel line by many fold.  I can't see any other plunger pump being different just from design alone.

These are good examples of Veg theroy not adding up to reality.  Oil does not have to be heated to 80o+ although most will say it does.  Oil does not have to be thin to spray properly or avoid stress on the IP. These things can be looked up and clearly seen if people put the effort into finding the information.
So much easier to work to the facts than the misinformation that is constantly put out there and people believe because they have heard it so many times before.

Again, it's important and smart to test things in YOUR conditions because everyone does not work to the same variables.

Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: dax021 on April 21, 2017, 09:43:52 AM
Hi Glort, maybe a silly question, but at what point do blend in the ULP, during the drying/filtering stage, or after you have decanted into storage drums?  Also, does the blend stay mixed, or does it separate out with standing?
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: AdeV on April 21, 2017, 02:09:09 PM
I love the idea of simply washing the alcohol out of ULP! Tempted to do that on the fuel I feed my Jag road car (4 litre supercharged)... the only thing I'd wonder is, would that wash out any of the other additives they put in there?
Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: glort on April 21, 2017, 04:20:21 PM
Hi Glort, maybe a silly question, but at what point do blend in the ULP, during the drying/filtering stage, or after you have decanted into storage drums?  Also, does the blend stay mixed, or does it separate out with standing?

You could do it either way. Myself, I add the ULP when I fill the tank.  I used to pour the ULP into the fuel drums after I poured a bit off and shook them before putting it in the Vehicle.
Now I tend to throw the ULP in the tank then add the oil. I did some mixing tests and pretty much any agitation mixes them together.  People go on like it's trying to mix oil and water but it's pretty much the opposite. They mix together at any opportunity.  My reasoning is by adding the ULP first, the inrush of the oil causes it to mix as it goes. Been doing it that way a couple of years now and yet to have a problem so must be OK.

The other main reason I blend when I fill the tank is because I can blend to the temps at the time. IF cooler weather is predicted I can up the ULP. If it's predicted to be hot I can back it off and if I know I'm going to be doing a lot of driving like going up the country, I may not add any ULP at all because once the thing is going, it's going to be hot till most of the tank is used up. Also on the vehicles I have had, the return fuel warms up what is in teh tank after a while anyway as does I believe hot air from the radiator passing under the vehicle as well as the exhaust.

Another reason I blend when filling the vehicle is because THE ULP will expand and contract more than the oil meaning you have popping drums and Flammable vapor in them.  I'm far from a safety sissy but as I store a LOT of this stuff around the place, I'm much more happy with something that's going to put out a campfire if you pump enough on it rather than something that's going cause it to flare.
Easy to put a 25L drum of petrol somewhere it can't do any harm than a 200L drum of mix.

And the other thing.....  I use oil in different engines and forever tweak the blends so I prefer to do that at the time so I don't forget what it was or I may have to add ULP or oil anyway to get the ratio I want.

All that said, I have read of people that pre mix their oil before they filter it. They say it makes the rubbish and water drop out easier which makes for easier filtering.  They pump off the top of the drum where the oil is cleaner and drier and then put the last 20-40L into the next batch and let that settle out.  The idea of Filtering ULP laced oil does not appeal to me.
As I dry my oil, the ULP would be driven off before the water and I'd loose it's benefits... not to mention making the place smell like a refinery which is sure to go down well with neighbors and FAR more importantly, The Mrs. NOT!!  2ndly, I couldn't test for water initially to get an idea of how wet it is.

A lot of people ask about separation, like every thing else I have tested that too and no, it NEVER separates out.  I had one test going for well over 2 years.  Just put the stuff there in a jar, kept an eye on it for a while and there it sat. And sat and sat Until I accidently knocked the jar off the shelf......  Never changed one bit.



Quote
I love the idea of simply washing the alcohol out of ULP! Tempted to do that on the fuel I feed my Jag road car (4 litre supercharged)... the only thing I'd wonder is, would that wash out any of the other additives they put in there?

I have heard that a lot too.
I looked into the additives they put in fuel ( here at least) and everything I found was oil based and would not mix with water. I have no reason to believe anything but the Alcohol would be removed in the water.
The washed fuel i make goes in my mowers and my Harley and I have never had any problems. 
If one was worried about that and wanted to use washed fuel, you could always put it one of the endless additives in a bottle. I don't really believe in them but If they make people feel better... 

A tip on additives/ Flushes......
Read the MSDS. I bought a drum off a guy that used to make his own additive brand and that was what he put in everything.  I looked at all the products I could find on the Net including the main ones and EVERY single one I have read for fuel or oil treatment all contains one major Component..... Naptha.  Shellite. Coleman gas. White spirit..... all the same thing. 
I can buy a litre Bottle at the hardware chain for $9. Miles cheaper than buying it at 50-80% concentration in a 250Ml bottle for $14 or whatever.  I buy a bottle, fill the tank and throw in 500ml-1L .
The other main component in these additives is usually another hydrocarbon..... Kero, Diesel and I suspect Transmission fluid under another name.

I added a bottle of Naptha once on a newly acquired truck and nearly shipped myself. It was blowing this noticeable blue white haze and made the engine looked like something was majorly wrong. That went away about 3/4 the way through the tank and I could see it thinning the further I drove which was a country trip.  Must have been cleaning something out of the engine because it wasn't doing it before and it cleared up on the same tank.  I suspect it could have been something to do with the residue in the manifold from the PCV or EGR. Far more trouble than it's worth on a diesel those. Stuffs up modern engines regularly I disconnect it or block it off as soon as I get a vehicle or engine that has it.
I put some naphtha in the tank every so often when I remember it to help prevent any possible gumming in the IP.  You can also run it straight into the engine  as a more concentrated flush. Naptha is the main additive in those sort of fuel system cleaners as well.  I run the engine on it direct about every 6 Months and shut down after about half the bottle is used and let it sit for as long as I can. You see the bottle change from water clear to a darker colour. Black if it's a new vehicle to me and been running diesel.

In honesty, I find no difference to the way the vehicle goes after the treatment but then again, I probably don't want to as that would mean something was not right. It's a preventative and if it takes away any gumming or whatever before it causes a problem, That's the aim of the game.   ;D


Title: Re: waste oil use over view.
Post by: dax021 on April 21, 2017, 07:19:29 PM
Thanks for the reply.  I have heard of guys chucking mothballs (naphtha) into a tank of petrol.  Supposed to boost the octane level.  Here in South Africa we don't get 97/98 octane anymore, best is 95 and only at the coast.  My old Hilux is supposed to run on 98 so pinks with the lower octane.  I haven't tried the mothballs yet though.