Lister Engine Forum

How to / DIY => Everything else => Topic started by: guest22972 on May 10, 2016, 02:01:05 AM

Title: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: guest22972 on May 10, 2016, 02:01:05 AM

While I know this isn't the place to discuss it, I have been looking into solar power lately with a view to DIY setups.

Here in Oz the price of used panels seems to be falling below .50c / watt.  There are a good supply of panels coming onto the market used where people are upgrading to bigger systems and therefore need more powerful panels to get the output to what they want with limited roof space.  In our northern and western states, Solar is particularly popular due to their never ending and intense sun shine. On a Trip north in January I was amazed to see probably 2 out of 3 homes have panels fitted.

The standard installation here now seems to be 5 Kw.  To me, that's a lot of power, especially if you compare it to our favored 6hp listers that typically do 3 Kw.  Where I am, The daily Yeild is said to average 15Kw/h which is a good 5 hours running an engine. Obviously the " On demand" factor isn't there with solar as it is with a generator unless you blow costs out with batteries but they are becoming cheaper too.
I read something yesterday which gave good reasons why battery backup would be a cost viable option by 2020.

I also have a good laugh at all the greenwashed talking about their tesla powerwalls and the myriad of similar but less well known units.  These things are miles away from being able to repay themselves with their cost/ output/ life expectancy but still championed by the green do gooders whom want to crap on about Co2 savings and the like they save while totally disregarding the amount of emissions they create in manufacture.

Here there is a mandated feed in tarrif of .6C per Kw/h. That ends at the end of the year on the gubbermints idea that competition will mean a tarrif is still paid. Given few if any power companies have offered above that rate, I have little doubt that most new solar purchases will be giving their excess generated power back to the utility companies with them crying all manner of BS excuses and crap as to why they can't afford to pay for it when they charge a significant amount extra and push " Green Power" like there are 2 different sets of power line for coal fired and solar generated energy.   ::)
The average cost of power here ranges from 22c kwh to 36C kwh which to me makes the 6C return another 

I have just got a small set of panels I intend to install at my fathers house. It's only 1 KW and he has a lot of trees around but with the rate he pays for power, I conservatively ( like 50% suggested) estimate that could save him $50-80 per bill which is worthwhile. I have a couple of inverters I picked up from the tip that were brand new and dumped due to being old model. Obviously they work fine and one being a 2Kw capacity will be perfect. I also have a 5Kw unit I will keep for my own install.

Rather than set up any  separate metering, all I am going to do is plug the inverter back into the mains.  They condition the power and disconnect in a micro second if the grid fails, or if the plug is pulled out.  Given my fathers meter box runs the old style meters, any excess power will simply sping them backwards using the grid as a battery for when he needs the power such as at night. Given he has a light industrial home based business, most of the power is likely to be used the " Normal" way offsetting his consumption.
If the setup proves worthwhile, I'll look at buying some more used panels and adding to the system capacity.  I know all his roofs are perfectly aligned north which is a bonus and he probably has enough for a 50Kw system but the question will be the extent of the shading from the trees.  The shed i have planned to use is pretty well back but the trees are monsters and i'm not sure at what point they will start to shade the panels. I'm hoping it may be at a point when the things were generating mimimal power anyway which will be late  afternoon.

  Even new, 5Kw systems are being sold and fitted for under $4k here.  i am wondering what they could be had for on a Supply only basis although I'm sure one would get a lot of flack about professional and licenced installation etc.  None the less, the price of the components has fallen to a viable level.  If one looks at a 5Kw system that could provide their power even through the day for 6 hours as to the cost of a generator and fuel to do the same, especialy on say a 5 yr basis, the solar is going to be a more than viable alternative.

I am not sure what the possibilities with new " approved Systems are.
If one could put on a seperate circuit that was solar only, it could be used to max effect. You could have the pool pump and the water heater for instance only come on ( unless over ridden) when there was solar, ie, free power available.  The clothes washer? dryer would ideally programed the same way.
I don't know if there are any such controllers that do this but it would certainly be an advantage if they could. Maybe something could be worked out with an arduino?

If I go to a home that has smart meters, the feedback things is stuffed. I would not be happy getting 6C kw h for the power I did make so a controller that engaged appliances only when there was solar power available would be an assett.  a $00L hot water system would only need one good days firing to last for about 3 or more in my house and if it took all day to come up, wouldn't really matter.  Even though the normal setup is to supply the home first then send power to the grid, like off peak one would want a controller that did not allow the heater to say " Top up" at any other time unless manually over ridden.

The thing is now with the availability of used solar panels, the cost really is becoming an expense that can be quickly recouped. May be different other places but here it's more than viable. When taken against the cost of a generator, not to mention ongoing fuel and maintenance costs ( and time) Solar is a very worthwhile alternative for many that can pump out a very good and usable amount of power for real and practical needs. 
Of course we'll always need our beloved lister roids on the wet dark days but to give them a break and not over tax them, solar is a good way now.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: quinnbrian on May 10, 2016, 03:01:35 AM
I've been off grid for a little over 5 years, and I'd never go back. My setup has 2800 watts of solar panel, with a 4844 inverter (48 volt,4400watts) and my Lister SR2,with a 10KW gen head.
The inverter is 120 volt and 220 volt out put @ 60Hz.Other than checking and putting water in the batteries, every once in a while, and keeping the battery terminals clean,there's not a whole to it. You have to mechanically inclined, or have someone that is. If something does go wrong....your the boss, no hydro company to yell at.
I live in Canada, in the winter, we uses the gen, almost every day, about 2-3 hour a day, to recharge the batteries . In the summer, ....maybe once a week, or two. We could uses more batteries, we have 8x6volt( they weigh about 110 pounds a piece) , think there 375 amp hours...can't remember, it's been a while. Anyways we run, in the winter a propane forced air furnace, refrigerator ,lights, TV, internet...etc. Nothing has really change (life style)  then , when we were on the grid. Well maybe something has change...we don't get a hydro bill !!! and that's a big plus...the cost of hydro here in Ontario, when we were on the grid was about $300.00 a month, I live in Ontario Canada, the most heavily, most expensive hydro cost of all the provinces of Canada ....why does hydro cost so much??? because they can charge and do charge what ever they like!!!
Used solar panel , sound like a good idea, depending what kind they are mono, poly...or something in between....big solar setups usually uses cheaper panels, with a known life expectancy, so by the time they get rid of them, there pretty much toast.  .50 cent a watts sounds good, here in Canada new panel are going for $1.00 a watt and you might be able to find a deal a $.90-.80 cent a watt. But look at what your buying...what type they are what is there pro rating( every year a panel is in uses there power output drops), so your 200watt panel that you just bought uses that is...say 10-12 years old will only output maybe 50% of it's rated power...and so on... So your 200watt panel, just became a 100watt panel....that could give up the ghost at anytime...you just don't know.
I have about $13000.00 into my setup, I install everything, The good part about doing it all, is if something does go wrong, you have some sort of idea , what it is.
Research your panel your looking at, and maybe look at the price of new ones...
Hope this helps, I'm not much of a writer/story teller LOL
Cheers
Brian
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on May 10, 2016, 06:15:10 AM
Quote
Given my fathers meter box runs the old style meters, any excess power will simply spin
 backwards using the grid as a battery for when he needs the power such as at night.

Maybe, maybe not.  Some of the old mech meters have a ratchet on them that only allows 1 direction.

And then there is the Power Company Auditor.    Hello Mr Smith, we see you are using a lot less power
these days, we think there is something wrong with your meter and it needs repair.  And if they see a
bootleg solar install, they may get quite upset.   Just a heads up.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on May 10, 2016, 03:47:37 PM
I've been off grid for a little over 5 years, and I'd never go back. My setup has 2800 watts of solar panel, with a 4844 inverter (48 volt,4400watts) and my Lister SR2,with a 10KW gen head.
The inverter is 120 volt and 220 volt out put @ 60Hz.Other than checking and putting water in the batteries, every once in a while, and keeping the battery terminals clean,there's not a whole to it. You have to mechanically inclined, or have someone that is. If something does go wrong....your the boss, no hydro company to yell at.
I live in Canada, in the winter, we uses the gen, almost every day, about 2-3 hour a day, to recharge the batteries . In the summer, ....maybe once a week, or two. We could uses more batteries, we have 8x6volt( they weigh about 110 pounds a piece) , think there 375 amp hours...can't remember, it's been a while. Anyways we run, in the winter a propane forced air furnace, refrigerator ,lights, TV, internet...etc. Nothing has really change (life style)  then , when we were on the grid. Well maybe something has change...we don't get a hydro bill !!! and that's a big plus...the cost of hydro here in Ontario, when we were on the grid was about $300.00 a month, I live in Ontario Canada, the most heavily, most expensive hydro cost of all the provinces of Canada ....why does hydro cost so much??? because they can charge and do charge what ever they like!!!
Used solar panel , sound like a good idea, depending what kind they are mono, poly...or something in between....big solar setups usually uses cheaper panels, with a known life expectancy, so by the time they get rid of them, there pretty much toast.  .50 cent a watts sounds good, here in Canada new panel are going for $1.00 a watt and you might be able to find a deal a $.90-.80 cent a watt. But look at what your buying...what type they are what is there pro rating( every year a panel is in uses there power output drops), so your 200watt panel that you just bought uses that is...say 10-12 years old will only output maybe 50% of it's rated power...and so on... So your 200watt panel, just became a 100watt panel....that could give up the ghost at anytime...you just don't know.
I have about $13000.00 into my setup, I install everything, The good part about doing it all, is if something does go wrong, you have some sort of idea , what it is.
Research your panel your looking at, and maybe look at the price of new ones...
Hope this helps, I'm not much of a writer/story teller LOL
Cheers
Brian

Where in Ontario ?
We have been considering a  2-3 KW grid tie system here without telling the power utility . Just to reduce the daytime peak rate consumption to near zero. The pool pump and AC will still cost however the AC season is only 6-12 weeks per season. The pool pump is on a timer so it operates 1/2 hour on and 1-1/2 hrs off around the clock. When the propane heater wears out a heat pump and some more PV panels will be installed . The hot tub may also have a 1KW , 48VDC heater installed . To have the PV panels heat the tub year around without worrying about freezing pipe work etc
   If the rumours are true. Ontario will consider surplus power that is flowing out to the grid for storage as income to be taxed. This will eliminate any advantages of " net metering".
     At the start of the Gerald Butts and Dalton McGuinty green energy love fest in Ontario . Net metering and feed in tariff wind-
Solar was a given to anybody. Then some pubic outcry rose from rate payers and people who understand technical matters instead of being liberal arts majors .
    I asked my utility if the 4.8/8.3KV lines could handle a new 600V 200 amp 166KW  service for my shop. "No problem , when do you want it "was the answer . Then I asked about connecting a 10KW net metering solar system. The answer was "sorry, can't do that. The system lacks enough capacity ".
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on May 10, 2016, 04:54:30 PM
I'm powering my off grid home with 120VDC ($1000 for batteries lasting 4.5 years) on 875 watts of PV panels, plus Listeroid 6/1 and ST-3 genny for laundry and water pumping (about $15/month for pump diesel).  Seasonal tilt only on panels, via $200 homebuilt steel ground mounted rack.  A big propane refrigerator/freezer is utterly quiet and takes about $25/mo. plus another $5. in propane cooking.  Eastern AZ at 5600 ft. allows for good solar charging even on most cloudy days.  I typically only run the generator for charging batteries on average 4 hours per winter season. (Two days.)  Batteries are fully charged every day and DOD is under 20% so cheap "marine" batteries can be used.  I do sunny day cooking with crock pots and rice cooker with steamer tray on 120VDC, plus a small toaster oven, propane for cloudy days.

My shop is Listeroid powered, for compressed air woodshop and occasional AC use.

Hot water (domestic) and space heating comes from direct solar HW, homebuilt flat panel collector 4'x32' configured as horizonal riser along my shop south wall. It's tilted at about 35 degrees from vertical to match gain with seasonal in-floor heat need for the house.  It's a drain-back system circulated directly from a below grade homebuilt 800 gallon insulated storage tank, sunk into floor (and earth) of my shop.  Tank is EPDM rubber pond liner inside 3 inches of foam board lining a hand dug hole in my shop floor.  Collector and tank design concept come from doitsolar.com.  The collector is formed aluminum fins over painted copper pipe with polycarbonate twinwall greenhouse panels for glazing.  The house in floor heating is run directly from the storage tank with no heat exchanger.  Domestic HW goes through 4 parallel coils of 1/2" copper heat exchanger (180 feet total) in the tank.  

Unlike PV, there is no useful heating from flat panel hot water collectors on cloudy or overcast days; the temperatures are just not high enough.  So I have to use propane for boosting water temps (as needed) for 2 months in the winter.  The storage tank is used as pre-heater and the propane HW heaters make up the difference when tank temperatures fall too low.

The 800 gallon insulated storage tank (145F max) can only heat the house 2 days without full sun in the winter, and "catch up" afterwards takes a couple days. For those two months my propane bill is $20/month higher.  The house is super insulated which makes this possible.  The 5" very well insulated concrete slab floor also allows me to not need air conditioning in the summer; open windows at night suffice, as the house only gains 3 degrees during the daytime despite a mid 90F high. Before solar, my winter propane bills were roughly $120/month total ($90 for heating).  I would have to double collector area and triple the storage tank size to go 100% solar (no propane) heating, while only saving $40/year in propane plus $50/yr for propane water heater replacement cost.

My new neighbor's home is using the same approach but we are upgrading his windows to triple pane, high performance vinyl type.  PV prices were so low he was able to get 1200 watts of panels for under $1000 including freight.  
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on May 10, 2016, 05:33:27 PM
Wow, really long writings.  I'm occasionally wrong but I'm under the impression that code calls for dedicated circuits for generators which includes solar panel / inverter systems.  Don't let your home catch on fire.  I'm also under the belief that if you're found to be tying generators to the grid without the utilities approval you can and may be disconnected from the grid. 

I will inquire the next email pitches for the "Greatest Invention Since Peanut Butter" (stand alone panels with built-in inverters) about their code and utility company compatibility and implications.
 
I also have to google the cost effectivity of wall batteries vs. lead acid arrays.

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: carlb23 on May 10, 2016, 08:29:45 PM
We installed our first solar array in 2004 it was a 7kw system.  We installed another 3kw in 2007 and another 11.5kw system in 2010 for a total of 21.5kw.  The system is grid tied and we generate around 32mwh a year.  In new jersey you can sell your energy credits back to the utilities to help them offset there required  amount of energy produced by renewables.  right now each mwh is selling for just under 300 dollars so we will recover around 9,000 dollars this year on our install and we pay nothing for heating or cooling for the year because we produce more than we could possibly use.   When we installed these system there were both state and federal incentives to install them making the payback for the systems less than 3 years.  In years past each mwh was selling for as high as 675 dollars earning a return of over $21,000 dollars some years.

I would never spend money on batteries i rely instead on my Lister or Subaru generator if the grid goes down.  Batteries are messy require too much maintenance for me since our grid does not go down often.   Also disposing of old batteries can be another problem especially if they are really big.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: veggie on May 10, 2016, 08:37:11 PM
Glort, why bother with grid connection or spinning meters backwards?
Consider running your panels to a battery bank, then to an inverter which powers some dedicated loads that are always on and powered only by the solar.
Maybe a freezer and/or a refrigerator, lower element in the hot water heater, night lights, etc....
It's the same as slowing down your meter because you are removing those circuits from your grid system.

just a thought mate,
cheers,
Veggie
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on May 10, 2016, 09:27:33 PM
Sweet deal on your excess power payback, Carl.  I wondered why you had such huge capacity, now I understand.  Smart move on your part. 

Batteries and their ongoing replacement can be serious $.



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Hugh Conway on May 10, 2016, 09:45:13 PM
Off-grid too, on the Canadian West coast. When they started forcing "smart meters" on us, I could see the writing on the wall regarding price increases.
Then too, the associated privacy and control issues. We just phoned up Hydro and told them to come take down their lines. That was 4 years ago.
I am under no illusion that this is "green power generation" Bunch of B.S. IMHO.
We set up this system ourselves with the help of a consultant who pointed us in the right direction. We're using a solar panel  array that is rated at just over 2KW. I made the ground mount racking to be adjustable to produce max output according to season, but in practice, have found adjustment to be un-necessary. Setting it at the proper angle for spring and Autumn seems to work best. In winter, it is usually too overcast to get much power output. In summer, we have a full charge on our batteries by noon. When building our house, we did not think we would be off-grid, so this place was not designed with that in mind.....works well anyhow.
This is a 24V system with 850AH battery bank. Out 6/1 listeroid will fully charge the battery bank in less than 2 hours run time on a winter day when we run nearly daily. Annual run time is about 300 hr annually. this system provides power for the house and shop. We do not necessarily use the generator when using shop tools or washing machine, the battery bank and 4KW inverter handles it easily, so long as only one large machine is running at a time. Our biggest single power draw is for a 3/4 HP deep well pump. Our average power usage is just over 2KWH per day.
There is a gravity water system for garden watering. This is an independent system that uses roof collected rainwater to a 2000gal tank, that water is pumped up to a gravity tank on the hilltop via a small 12V solar panel and $30 MPPT charger/power supply.
Hot water is via solar collector. In winter the coil in the wood stove provides ample hot water.
The whole system is pretty simple and relatively trouble free. Good thing too, because I am not a whiz with electronic stuff.Total cost for us was about 20K, it hurt initially, but now we do not notice the frequent winter (sometimes summer too) power outages. Have no monthly Hydro bills, and really like the additional independence this provides. My only regret is that I did not do this years ago. Should be even easier now that component costs are much less than they used to be.
If one has even a small amount hands-on abilities, it's the way to go. If you are clueless, maybe just stay plugged in and hope for the best.
BTW, one of my friends has 21 years on a similar battery bank.......if you don't abuse them, they can last quite a while.

Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Hugh Conway on May 10, 2016, 09:50:10 PM

@ Glort........You initially said that maybe this forum was not the place to discuss this topic: Looks popular to me!
Listers and Listeroids make good generators!
Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: quinnbrian on May 10, 2016, 11:58:36 PM
I've been off grid for a little over 5 years, and I'd never go back. My setup has 2800 watts of solar panel, with a 4844 inverter (48 volt,4400watts) and my Lister SR2,with a 10KW gen head.
The inverter is 120 volt and 220 volt out put @ 60Hz.Other than checking and putting water in the batteries, every once in a while, and keeping the battery terminals clean,there's not a whole to it. You have to mechanically inclined, or have someone that is. If something does go wrong....your the boss, no hydro company to yell at.
I live in Canada, in the winter, we uses the gen, almost every day, about 2-3 hour a day, to recharge the batteries . In the summer, ....maybe once a week, or two. We could uses more batteries, we have 8x6volt( they weigh about 110 pounds a piece) , think there 375 amp hours...can't remember, it's been a while. Anyways we run, in the winter a propane forced air furnace, refrigerator ,lights, TV, internet...etc. Nothing has really change (life style)  then , when we were on the grid. Well maybe something has change...we don't get a hydro bill !!! and that's a big plus...the cost of hydro here in Ontario, when we were on the grid was about $300.00 a month, I live in Ontario Canada, the most heavily, most expensive hydro cost of all the provinces of Canada ....why does hydro cost so much??? because they can charge and do charge what ever they like!!!
Used solar panel , sound like a good idea, depending what kind they are mono, poly...or something in between....big solar setups usually uses cheaper panels, with a known life expectancy, so by the time they get rid of them, there pretty much toast.  .50 cent a watts sounds good, here in Canada new panel are going for $1.00 a watt and you might be able to find a deal a $.90-.80 cent a watt. But look at what your buying...what type they are what is there pro rating( every year a panel is in uses there power output drops), so your 200watt panel that you just bought uses that is...say 10-12 years old will only output maybe 50% of it's rated power...and so on... So your 200watt panel, just became a 100watt panel....that could give up the ghost at anytime...you just don't know.
I have about $13000.00 into my setup, I install everything, The good part about doing it all, is if something does go wrong, you have some sort of idea , what it is.
Research your panel your looking at, and maybe look at the price of new ones...
Hope this helps, I'm not much of a writer/story teller LOL
Cheers
Brian

Where in Ontario ?
We have been considering a  2-3 KW grid tie system here without telling the power utility . Just to reduce the daytime peak rate consumption to near zero. The pool pump and AC will still cost however the AC season is only 6-12 weeks per season. The pool pump is on a timer so it operates 1/2 hour on and 1-1/2 hrs off around the clock. When the propane heater wears out a heat pump and some more PV panels will be installed . The hot tub may also have a 1KW , 48VDC heater installed . To have the PV panels heat the tub year around without worrying about freezing pipe work etc


Just outside of Kingston Ontario. About 20 minutes North.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on May 11, 2016, 03:44:49 PM
Off grid in northern California for 6 years here.   Listeroid backup in the winter when the sun don't shine for weeks of rain.  I run it about 90 min in the AM, and another 60 min evenings when the cloud cover is thick.   The 5Kw PV arrays (a 3Kw & 2Kw) cover all the summertime loads, often in float before noon.  We use about 7Kwh daily in winter (large ranch, 3 fridges/freezers, 2 laptops and gobs of electronics gear)  Summer when we are pumping water, we jump to 11 or 12Kwh daily.

Any simple Grid Tie system can be run without batteries, the PV inverter treats the Grid as a huge battery.

If you want to generate all your own, and not sell any to the grid, you need a "hybrid" inverter and that requires batteries for stability. When the panels don't produce you buy power from the grid.  if the grid goes down, your minimal battery bank might last an hour, since you don't generally install a full size bank.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on May 11, 2016, 05:15:22 PM
I've been off grid for a little over 5 years, and I'd never go back. My setup has 2800 watts of solar panel, with a 4844 inverter (48 volt,4400watts) and my Lister SR2,with a 10KW gen head.
The inverter is 120 volt and 220 volt out put @ 60Hz.Other than checking and putting water in the batteries, every once in a while, and keeping the battery terminals clean,there's not a whole to it. You have to mechanically inclined, or have someone that is. If something does go wrong....your the boss, no hydro company to yell at.
I live in Canada, in the winter, we uses the gen, almost every day, about 2-3 hour a day, to recharge the batteries . In the summer, ....maybe once a week, or two. We could uses more batteries, we have 8x6volt( they weigh about 110 pounds a piece) , think there 375 amp hours...can't remember, it's been a while. Anyways we run, in the winter a propane forced air furnace, refrigerator ,lights, TV, internet...etc. Nothing has really change (life style)  then , when we were on the grid. Well maybe something has change...we don't get a hydro bill !!! and that's a big plus...the cost of hydro here in Ontario, when we were on the grid was about $300.00 a month, I live in Ontario Canada, the most heavily, most expensive hydro cost of all the provinces of Canada ....why does hydro cost so much??? because they can charge and do charge what ever they like!!!
Used solar panel , sound like a good idea, depending what kind they are mono, poly...or something in between....big solar setups usually uses cheaper panels, with a known life expectancy, so by the time they get rid of them, there pretty much toast.  .50 cent a watts sounds good, here in Canada new panel are going for $1.00 a watt and you might be able to find a deal a $.90-.80 cent a watt. But look at what your buying...what type they are what is there pro rating( every year a panel is in uses there power output drops), so your 200watt panel that you just bought uses that is...say 10-12 years old will only output maybe 50% of it's rated power...and so on... So your 200watt panel, just became a 100watt panel....that could give up the ghost at anytime...you just don't know.
I have about $13000.00 into my setup, I install everything, The good part about doing it all, is if something does go wrong, you have some sort of idea , what it is.
Research your panel your looking at, and maybe look at the price of new ones...
Hope this helps, I'm not much of a writer/story teller LOL
Cheers
Brian

Where in Ontario ?
We have been considering a  2-3 KW grid tie system here without telling the power utility . Just to reduce the daytime peak rate consumption to near zero. The pool pump and AC will still cost however the AC season is only 6-12 weeks per season. The pool pump is on a timer so it operates 1/2 hour on and 1-1/2 hrs off around the clock. When the propane heater wears out a heat pump and some more PV panels will be installed . The hot tub may also have a 1KW , 48VDC heater installed . To have the PV panels heat the tub year around without worrying about freezing pipe work etc


Just outside of Kingston Ontario. About 20 minutes North.

East Coast of Lake Huron. Not down your way very much . Have a cousin north of Trenton, did some training at Morrisburg and toured the hydro electric plant Saunders . We Should be doing an Ottawa trip one of these days.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: guest23837 on May 11, 2016, 11:45:32 PM
We don't get an awful lot of sunshine in Ireland solar is mostly used for heating water or powering the flashing orange lights at schools. A lot of politicians and business types favour wind turbines, connected to the grid. Maybe it's because I'm a contrary person but I can see the logic of solar panels charging battery banks but I'm puzzled as to why gas power plants have to be kept running in case the wind stops. Anyone care to enlighten me?
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Hugh Conway on May 12, 2016, 03:44:24 AM
We don't get an awful lot of sunshine in Ireland solar is mostly used for heating water or powering the flashing orange lights at schools. A lot of politicians and business types favour wind turbines, connected to the grid. Maybe it's because I'm a contrary person but I can see the logic of solar panels charging battery banks but I'm puzzled as to why gas power plants have to be kept running in case the wind stops. Anyone care to enlighten me?
No wind, no power storage, no power..........got to keep the gas plants operational to pick up the slack.

I once saw a small wind powered generating system that nearly always worked.......the wind generator used some power to pump water from a large tank to another large hilltop tank. When the wind did not blow, the stored uphill water powered a small water turbine driven generator and dumped the water back into the down-hill tank. Made a god swimming hole too!
Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on May 12, 2016, 05:23:48 PM
We don't get an awful lot of sunshine in Ireland solar is mostly used for heating water or powering the flashing orange lights at schools. A lot of politicians and business types favour wind turbines, connected to the grid. Maybe it's because I'm a contrary person but I can see the logic of solar panels charging battery banks but I'm puzzled as to why gas power plants have to be kept running in case the wind stops. Anyone care to enlighten me?

Because the lights , homes and industry will shut down due to low voltage, low frequency and low current or high voltage, high current and high frequency as wind electrical power varies with normal minute by minute variations in wind speed. The governors in the gas turbines, thermal or hydro electric sites are racking up and down varying power to fill in the low and prevent peaks.
    Wind turbines also need to be connected to a stable utility grid for excitation and reference frequency.
    I am always surprised how the general public has no idea where and how vital services such as water, power, food and sanitation is provided.
     Keeping extra fossil or hydro electric power on spinning reserve raises the cost of power generation.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: quinnbrian on May 13, 2016, 01:10:02 AM
We don't get an awful lot of sunshine in Ireland solar is mostly used for heating water or powering the flashing orange lights at schools. A lot of politicians and business types favour wind turbines, connected to the grid. Maybe it's because I'm a contrary person but I can see the logic of solar panels charging battery banks but I'm puzzled as to why gas power plants have to be kept running in case the wind stops. Anyone care to enlighten me?

You could have enough battery storage.... but batteries are very expensive, I paid $2700.00 for 8 of them....that was 5 years ago, now the same batteries are $3700.00. I guess if you had lots of money...say...$12000.00-14000.00 you would have enough battery storage and "black outs" would be a thing of the past.
So we uses the genset to bring the batteries back up, when the wind doesn't blow and the sun, doesn't shine. With 4 seasons, its hard to tell what going to happen.

My gen hasn't run ,in...almost 2 weeks :-)...Things are looking up!!
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on May 13, 2016, 07:38:02 AM
Quote
Another interesting thing I saw is that a couple of solar retailers here are selling PV's that come in rolls like hall runner carpet. I have seen the flexible panels that are like thin plastic or plywood kind of flexible but this stuff is much more like fabric.  It would follow Curves and bends that the regular flexible stuff would look solid on.  Don't know what the performace is like as far as watts/ sq/m goes but the price is quite competitieve for the output. Not as cheap as regular flat panels but well and truly low enough to make it viable where other panels would be difficult.

The roll panels are generally "thin film" and start to degrade in sunlight, they loose about 10% per year.  I'd be VERY cautious before buying that.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: guest23837 on May 13, 2016, 05:19:19 PM
So what am I missing? The windmill sometimes turns and produces power. If it doesn't turn the gas fired power station that's running all the time starts supplying the power. The problems I have are 1. extra 5% on electricity costs for alternative energy 2. Running a power plant in case the wind drops is surely expensive and illogical. I like the double reservoir idea but the green party here are obsessed with wind and they seem to be the squeaky wheels on environmental issues. There's going to be a 630 foot wind turbine constructed below my house, below as in a valley. Logic? Very interesting thread this
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: quinnbrian on May 14, 2016, 12:18:47 AM
There's somewhere on the net , that goes through the different batteries type....car ..marine..forklift..etc. Car batteries , when used for "off grid" where there charged over and over again, don't do very well. I think the number is round 40-50 recharges before there NFG. The plates in a car battery are very thin, and will not take very well to deep cycling. A marine battery, like the ones you'd uses on a trolling motor, have the plates inside that are a little thicker, making...more usable as an off grid battery.
Car batteries are designed to hit hard/high short loads ( your car starting) and charged fast, for short periods of time. Ever tried to start you car and it just wouldn't start.....if you turn it over and over again , it doesn't take long to kill your battery. And if you do it enough times ...the plates in the battery will, warp...over heat and you'll need a new battery. Car batteries are a little different on the way they rate them, amps, cold crating amps and  reserve amps. The amp rating is how much the battery can put out for a very short time ( about 5-10  a temps ) at trying to start your car, with out damaging your battery. Cold cranking amps is an amp rating @ a given temp (- something)  , in very cold temps, a car battery or any battery with only have about 40-50% of it total amps available. And reserve amps (the one you want to look at) is the amps available after you've tried to start your car over and over again, and leave it for a while( the battery cools down) is really what you have for amps/deep cycle.
If the batteries are free, then have some fun!! It better to try something, then to never have done it before, because you listen (to me) and maybe other that say done do it. It will work for a short time...week... a month...who knows, but its a good starting point, where you can learn , with out spending a lot.
Right now, my system...inverter (48 volts) will provide 4400watts of 120 or 2200watt of 220, I have 8 solar panel @ 325 watt per panel (2600 watts) 8x 6 volt Interstate L-16dual batteries rated at 380 amps@20 hours( these batteries weigh 110 pounds  per battery, very heavy!! MPPT PVA charger and wiring...disconnect boxes fuses...etc.
Altogether I think I have about $14000.00, not including the Lister SR2 with a 10Kw ST head.
But I make all my power for my home...no grid tie in here....will there is, just down the road, but I don't want anything to do with it!! :-) I like the way it works, there is maintenance,but very little. And if the light go out, down call the hydro hot line...it all you.
Cheers
Brian
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on May 14, 2016, 12:42:21 AM
This from the windsun.com solar power site on ball park battery life for off grid use:

    Starting: 3-12 months
    Marine: 1-6 years
    Golf cart: 2-7 years
    AGM deep cycle: 4-8 years
    Gelled deep cycle: 2-5 years
    Deep cycle (L-16 type etc): 4-8 years
    Rolls-Surrette premium deep cycle: 7-15 years
    Industrial deep cycle (Crown and Rolls 4KS series): 10-20+ years.
    Telephone (float): 2-20 years. These are usually special purpose "float service", but often appear on the surplus market as "deep cycle". They can vary     considerably, depending on age, usage, care, and type.
    NiFe (alkaline): 5-35 years
    NiCad: 1-20 years

If a set of 8 L16's at $3700 were to last 7 years, that would be $44/month replacement cost, ignoring interest, inflation, etc.  That's not bad compared to some larger systems, or some other types of batteries.

One of these days the long awaited big battery breakthrough will come...right? 




Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Thob on May 14, 2016, 02:31:31 AM

[snip]

The idea seems amazingly logical and practical.

[snip]



...which is exactly why it will probably never happen!  ;D
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: billswan on May 14, 2016, 01:17:07 PM

Being the cheap, tight, always looking to buck the system type, I am thinking that a good chance of low cost equipment may lie with the IT industry.  I have several UPS units that provide really good power both in clean output and amperage. I had a beautiful 3Kw output unit that was given to me by a guy who dealt in used equipment for a couple of little favours I did for him. Again just run off car batteries, this was a great power supply and battery maintainer in one..... Till my damn Cat pissed in the thing and all the magic smoke escaped... from the UPS not the cat. Maybe fortunately, maybe not.  I found out about having it repaired and embarrassed, I lied to the guy about what happened. Said I spilt my Coffee in it. He said that was rare, usually the ones they got from domestic situations with liquid ingress, cats had pissed in them.  He thought it was funny when I said that's what happened but I was embarrassed to say.
Upshot was that it wouldn't be worth fixing as the cats piss really corroded the heck out of things and you could never trust  them again.

Glort
That above paragraph brings back memories. I am an avid talk radio junkie and many years ago one of my more or less local talk commentators had a guest on who was a VCR repair man. (for you younger readers VCR stands for video cassette recorder) Well during the interview the show host asked what some of the things were that killed VCR's and one of the responses was urine. Obviously there was a pause and the show host said what did you say? The guy went on to explain that most vcr's are right at a cats nose level and they seem to think that the electrical smell is the mark of another male cat.
So of course they just cannot stand that so they turn around and let fly with there own marking system to let the other guy know this is there territory.
Of course like your power supply repairman said that stuff is really corrosive and just the wreaks the hell out of copper wire.
 And on a personal experience level one day I hit the jackpot at a local golf cart builder going out of business yard sale. I Bought a big box of electrical wiring and you guessed it one of my farm tom cats started sleeping on top of the box. And much later when I opened up the box to get a chunk for some patch job the urine and its odors had penetrated up the ends of the wire and had turned new wire green. BASTARD CAT.

Billswan
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on May 14, 2016, 06:33:13 PM
1.4Kwhr of reserve is really only 0.4Kwhr of usable capacity. Deep cycling any battery, lead acid starting batteries in particular will cause rapid failure. 
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: guest23837 on May 16, 2016, 04:30:11 PM
I been reading about Tesla home battery packs that are 10kw hr, thats a lot of power on standby. Has anyone tried or read a review of them?
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on May 17, 2016, 03:09:56 PM
I been reading about Tesla home battery packs that are 10kw hr, thats a lot of power on standby. Has anyone tried or read a review of them?

Useful capacity of the 10Kw Tesla pack is about 6MWhr.
What is the cost of your on peak vs off peak power?  What is the loss in efficiency to charge, discharge and invert to AC ? What does the additional grid tie inverter cost.
    If planning on powering your home when the grid is down with your Tesla. Add in the cost of a transfer switch.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: quinnbrian on May 18, 2016, 01:21:57 AM
I been reading about Tesla home battery packs that are 10kw hr, thats a lot of power on standby. Has anyone tried or read a review of them?

There a guy on utube that show you how to build one...for a faction of the cost of buying one. He also goes through...the good and bad of them, and how there made. I'll see if I can find the link.
Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk50IuWXg-c
Hope this helps
Cheers
Brian
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on May 18, 2016, 05:31:10 PM
I thought Tesla stopped sales of the 10 KWH units.

Of course I covet two of them or maybe four.  I'm pretty sure they're 120 volts out so you need two for 240 volt use. Yes, as the Supreme Commander I shall edict "No 240 appliances aver 3:00 or before 10:00 but the naives don't always obey!  Remember my caveat:  I've been mistaken before.  Now to check out the above link.

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on May 18, 2016, 06:16:04 PM
I've read that Tesla's batteries have quite a bit of battery charge balancing circuitry, which this DIY hobbyist is ignoring.  If you just charge large numbers of cells configured in both parallel and series, individual cells will always over or under-perform and problems will result.  Lithium cells are somewhat simpler to charge manage as they just need to be voltage limited, and voltage can be used to determine state of charge.  But still, cell charge management of some sort is needed. Lithium cells will not last long if charged as if they were lead acid cells.

Typically they would have quite a bit of electronics added to monitor cell voltage and regulate charge, to redirect charge current around full cells, to underchaged cells, in order to conserve battery life and keep the cells balanced in charge.

I also don't believe the numbers have changed since I evaluated lithium for my off grid home over a decade ago, and gave them a thumbs down.  They only make sense if weight and energy density are a big issue, or operation at elevated temperatures would make lead acid batteries die very quickly.  Both those issues make lithium a good choice for cars, but a bad one for home power, at present.  If improvements lead to greater cycle life, that could change quickly.  We can only hope that the next big battery breakthrough, promised for the last 70 years plus, will soon actually happen. 



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Tom on May 18, 2016, 08:04:54 PM
Yes I to hope for new and long lived battery tech. The 48kw of industrial batteries in the basement are now 9 years old and starting to show some signs of aging. The were only $8k in '07, don't know what they'll cost now. The prismatic LiFePo high amp hour units do look viable as a replacement to me. There are other factors than KW and cycles. Acceptance and equalization burns a lot of amp hours turning H2O into gas.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: broncodriver99 on May 19, 2016, 06:39:47 AM
Watched the vid and the first thing that hit me was the price... $3000 for the smaller unit obviously being in the US
I had to check that was accurate and a look on the net seems it was along with the local price I had in my mind..... $15,000!!
I know there is a currency difference and other things that go with it but a 12K difference?  And I bet you yanks complain about 3500!

Dunno what you guys pay for power but the average 2 adult, 2 kid home here is taken to pay between 2500 and 3K a year for power and I'd say that is on the money.  If we could get them for even $4k allowing for dollar difference, they would be a 4 year return at very worst allowing for install etc.

WOW. That is a heck of a disparity. The currency exchange shouldn't be but about 40%. There may be some import tariffs on your end as the US doesn't do much of anything with export tariffs. Tesla did get a boat load of taxpayer money to aid developing their different technologies so maybe we in the US get to reap the benefit of our investment where the rest of the world may not. That generally isn't the case with our industry but who knows. We generally get hosed for high prices while the same company sells the same product in developing areas for pennies.  ::)

The US averages $0.12 per kilowatt hour for electricity. It is hard to nail down a national average for the standard family household as we have everything from dessert with evaporative cooling to northern areas that have basically 1 month of summer.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: guest23837 on May 19, 2016, 11:10:52 AM
The video was quite interesting however like others here I'd not be happy using old laptop batteries, the tend to be very old most people just leave the battery in situ and use AC power when the battery dies.

I saw mention of an Indian diesel scooter some time ago, http://motorbikewriter.com/india-unveils-innovative-diesel-scooter/, it seems to be a useful idea but like a battery that's affordable practical and long lasting the scooter never made it to production. An old guy like me would look silly on the scooter anyway! Surely there are better batteries coming down the line?
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on May 19, 2016, 04:11:05 PM
All in all I think we all know whimsical hot air when we see it. 

     1)   Compared used crap to brand new warrantied stuff.
     2)   Not including all of the included equipment.
     3)   Not discussing all of the not included equipment.

glort:     Oh my Gosh, I agree with you again and there's almost two weeks left in this month.

broncodriver99:   We have 6 KW of panels and still pay from $250 to $500 a month for electricity.  Yup, in Hawaii we are currently paying 31 cents a KWH.  And guess what?  The utilities commission just cut grid tie program by 50%.  Over generate at noon and get 15 cents a KWH credit and buy back a KWH at midnight for only 31 cents.  So HELCO is making 100% return per day on my investment.  Monopolies are good.  They make life simple.

X

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: broncodriver99 on May 19, 2016, 04:30:57 PM
broncodriver99:   We have 6 KW of panels and still pay from $250 to $500 a month for electricity.  Yup, in Hawaii we are currently paying 31 cents a KWH.  And guess what?  The utilities commission just cut grid tie program by 50%.  Over generate at noon and get 15 cents a KWH credit and buy back a KWH at midnight for only 31 cents.  So HELCO is making 100% return per day on my investment.  Monopolies are good.  They make life simple.

You guys in Hawaii definitely get the short end of the stick on a lot of things. Sounds like the greed is strong with your electric company.

Can't beat the view though, eh?
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on May 19, 2016, 07:14:32 PM
Casey, I was just wondering where all that power goes- A/C?  Is the house insulated? How many SF?  Solar hot water?  Electric clothes dryer?


Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on May 19, 2016, 07:33:05 PM
broncodriver99:   We have 6 KW of panels and still pay from $250 to $500 a month for electricity.  Yup, in Hawaii we are currently paying 31 cents a KWH.  And guess what?  The utilities commission just cut grid tie program by 50%.  Over generate at noon and get 15 cents a KWH credit and buy back a KWH at midnight for only 31 cents.  So HELCO is making 100% return per day on my investment.  Monopolies are good.  They make life simple.

You guys in Hawaii definitely get the short end of the stick on a lot of things. Sounds like the greed is strong with your electric company.

Can't beat the view though, eh?

Hawaii suffers from do gooders that would make California do gooders jealous. No low cost nuclear , limited coal base load utility grid power generation. Hawaii generation is reciprocating diesel and some heavy oil and gas turbines that burn lighter more $$$ kerosene or #2 diesel. Hydraulic power generation is rather modest being run of river as the bunny huggers and high land prices preclude water storage dams.
   A couple of ship mounted nuclear units that are earthquake proof is the only way to lower Hawaii prices .
    However the other existing investors make $$$ supplying Hawaii would differ in opinion about nuclear.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: dieselgman on May 19, 2016, 07:47:39 PM
It occurs to me that some types of geothermal should be practical in some places. Perhaps those active zones are just not stable enough?

dieselgman
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on May 19, 2016, 09:44:48 PM
Here's a thoughtful explanation of Hawaii's energy situation by a nuclear engineer. 
http://friendsofnelha.org/nuclear-power-for-hawaii/

Gary's suggestion of geothermal power makes me wonder about it's suitability for Hawaii; I know Iceland has developed that significantly. 
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on May 19, 2016, 09:58:12 PM
Here's an interesting article about the existing geothermal plant in Hawaii as well as a look at geothermal in the US and around the world. 

http://www.hawaiibusiness.com/geothermal-is-a-red-hot-topic/

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: dieselgman on May 19, 2016, 11:17:49 PM
As usual... local resistance to progress because most of the benefits will be taken away from the community, add in the greenies and a mess of politics. It is a wonder anything gets accomplished these days.

I think that almost all human activity will have some environmental impacts... the logical keys would be to accurately weigh all of the factors for costs and risks, educate all of the people involved, obtain fully informed consent and carry out any such projects with Justice as a guiding principle.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on May 20, 2016, 01:20:38 AM
  In Ontario the word is natural gas will be phased out in order to use all the surplus over priced subsidized wind and solar power.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on May 20, 2016, 05:22:34 PM
WOW!  Talk about button city.

Those Tuesday talks are given at the Hawaii Electrical Company (HELCO) "show n tell" auditorium.  It's always nice to know who's paying for the free somethings.  There is enough geo energy to easily supply the big island and there have been positive feasibility studies about running the excess to the other islands.  Of course the corporate leaders of HELCO might have to explain to the other corporations they serve why or how they have lost the oil shipping contracts and refinery revenues.

I'm still curious how my 6KW system challenges the grid but their acre sized solar arrays are just fine and dandy.

Please don't infer that petroleum isn't subsidized.  We have lost over 6800 troops in Iraq and Afghanistan so far this century.  Do you have any idea how much we spend on the 20,000 navy personnel in the Gulf alone each day.  Please.

Do you consider Grand Coulee Dam to be a subsidy?  Do you consider the US interstate highway system to be a subsidy?  Do you consider all of the research and development of nuclear power to be a subsidy?  (Or the clean up costs?)

Tax credits for home owners on solar is a drop in the bucket.  How is it that when a large corporation gets a "no stinking subsidy" it's for national defense or jobs but when I want a tinsy piece of the pie I'm a blood sucking tree hugging do-gooder?

LowGear

I think I'm wired up.  Now where's that gas powered lawn mower as I have some man's work to do.  Stinky, dirty, noisy man work!  Hmmmmm;  Where can I expand the grass area so I won't be faced with one of those wussy electric mowers on the next mower purchase.


Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on May 20, 2016, 05:31:46 PM
Hi dieselgman,

When you find that sane universe would you please let me in on the secret location?

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on May 20, 2016, 06:17:06 PM
Now to bring this thread back from the edge of politics and into the arena of solar power and the Tesla Wall thing.  When the giga-factory gets caught up with production and the price drops a bit I'll be going to the kiss my insulators grid system.  There are a couple of modifications needed:

4 KW more of solar panels.  (Subsidized)
Tesla Walls.   (Subsidized - I hope))
Some device to handle my SunnyBoy inverters so they can control my micro grid and charge my Tesla Wall or a US made competitor.  (I hope you all source your own suppliers before you start paying around the world shipping.)
Propane kitchen cooker.
Solar water booster and maybe a propane water heater.  (My next project to complete.)
Propane clothes dryer.
Conversion of my pond pumps from direct electric to air powered via small compressors with timers.
Maybe even getting the Witte tied into the Tesla Walls.

I like a 5 year payback.  OK, so right now I'm getting about a 50 year payback on my savings so it doesn't take much to push me over the edge.

Casey


Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: carlb23 on May 25, 2016, 11:32:14 AM
I bought a old water collector kit on ebay that had never been assembled for 150 dollars with glazing.  It was a 8'x12' design which i incorporated into the south side of my shed wall that i was building.  I set the wall 65 degrees to horizontal for best sun collection in my area in the winter.   I used  three 75 gallon ( filled to about 210 gallons total or just under 800 liters) plastic drums that are in the basement to hold the water with a 50' copper coil in each tank.  The tanks are coupled together so the water flows from one to the other.  The cold water is taken from the bottom of the right tank and hot water returned to the top of the left tank.   The drums were 30 dollars each the controller was 75 dollars and i had the copper tubing .    Cold water comes into the house and goes through the copper coils in the drums before it is sent to the electric water heater.   In winter the storage tanks stay around 120 degrees during sunny days and only drop back to about 100 overnight.   If we have several days of clouds and snow/rain it will drop back to 70 to 80 degrees.  in ths summer that are topped off early @135 which is the cutoff temp i have set.

It is a open system and there is no pressure in the storage water tanks.  A small circulator pump moves the water when the panels are hot enough as determined by the controller

I only have about 500 dollars US invested and it has been running very well for just under 2 years now.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on May 25, 2016, 04:19:12 PM
BruceM:  
Quote
Casey, I was just wondering where all that power goes- A/C?  Is the house insulated? How many SF?  Solar hot water?  Electric clothes dryer?
 We have a one unit B&B and a live on site volunteer staff so (2) full sized fridges; (2) under-counter fridges; 1 regular hot water tank and one assisted; 1 electric cloths dryer; (2) 24-7 water features & (2) air - water pumps; 1 swimming pool; 1 electric cooker and a cadre of people that just can't figure out how to turn @*%%!ing stuff off.  We're at 1000 feet so AC isn't needed.  The house has an insulated ceiling but since we installed vents we've never felt heat from the ceiling.  We have a couple of windows that are only shut to clean them.  As I mention before a solar boost kinda like carlb23's only plumbed directly to the bottom of the electric tank is on the top of the project list.

glort:  
Quote
Solar panels don't generate a whole load of power from 10-7 But I have never heard of anyone having their water heaters set up to come on when the panels are generating and the homeowner could be making the most of that power instead of selling it for less than half of what they have to buy it back for.
 I use one.  It's set for 10:00 AM to 2:00 PM to suck off the solar excess and then from 5:00 AM to 6:00 AM just so we don't suffer first thing in the morning.  B&B guests have expectations.  Once in a while we have to reach in and trip the timer because I can't figure out how to schedule cloths washing during lunch.  It's also a nice time to run the dryer.  However We're on the old grid tie where a KW to the grid is the same as a KW out of the grid.  The new program much like glort described is why I balked at adding new solar especially when I learned that the entire site would be converted to the new program.  I thank the Utilities Commission every time I get a chance for selling us down the river.

carlb23:
I'm surprised I didn't read anything about insulating those tanks.  I'm thinking just pasteboard boxes would be noticed.

I don't blame HELCO at all.  The supreme commandment of most corporations is to deliver profit to the stockholders - after significant compensation to top management.  If you don't think this is Truth then you're in for many disappointments in your life.  HOWEVER: The Utilities Commission is compensated by the state to protect the interests of the people.  They are confused about their mission.

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on May 25, 2016, 06:11:42 PM
Here in AZ the biggest power co., APS,  has found a way around that annoying elected corporation commission problem-  they fund their own candidates and now control the commission.  Glad I'm no longer grid connected.

You're doing quite well on the power consumption considering all that you've got going, Casey.  Lets keep our fingers crossed for that big battery breakthrough that makes home storage a winner and the power co.s wail.




Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: carlb23 on May 26, 2016, 11:54:10 AM
[quote author=

carlb23:
I'm surprised I didn't read anything about insulating those tanks.  I'm thinking just pasteboard boxes would be noticed.



Casey
[/quote]

I just didn't mention it but they are contained in a 9'x4' box which is filled with blown in insulation about 20" all the way around the perimeter of the tanks. the top of the box is 6" of rigid foam.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on May 26, 2016, 04:02:46 PM
Carl, you sure are a savy energy producer! The 80ish percent efficiency of direct solar hot water production is a real boon, despite all the plumbing.  My single 4x32' home-built hot water panel does almost all of my home space and domestic water heating.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on May 26, 2016, 04:49:21 PM
Hey carlb23 and BruceM,

Hats off to you two. 

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on May 28, 2016, 08:10:34 AM
micro inverters are nearly all grid tie models.   Sorry.  They won't sync to a rotating alternator, but may sync to a stable inverter-generator.  But then you develop high local grid voltage and fry things
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on May 28, 2016, 05:01:30 PM
Hi Glort,

Thanks for your consideration.  I'm working towards simple.  

I'm even unloading my bio-diesel equipment.  I'm still going to filter WVO but even when diesel was selling for $5.27 a gallon I just don't do enough fuel through flow to justify the time, and space.  Also a contact showed me his triple Duda filter into one container system that was world changing for me.

I hope you understand how dangerous DC is once you get 4 or 5 of those solar panels daisy chained.  Car batteries have sort of whispered us into lala land around DC.  Those prices are fantastic even if they're 10 years old and have lost maybe 1/3 of their capacity.

The two major advantages of micro inverters are 1) not having your "string" limited or brought way down by one bad or shaded panel and 2) individual panel reporting through your intranet or internet.

Gas dryers are about the same price here in Hawaii and in Seattle as I check the local craigslist.  The problem is bringing the gas into the house legally as we say but really mean "permitted".  Homeowners can't pull permits in Hawaii for much of anything but especially magic stuff like gas, plumbing or electric.  The lowest bid so far is $1250 for 30 feet of line.  And because there is so many un-permitted (Gee, I wonder why?) projects here the insurance inspectors really check for non permitted utilities.

I'm thinking about developing a campaign button.  "Ask Me About Our F$$k$$g Utility Commission."  Too subtle?

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on May 29, 2016, 06:29:15 PM
Quote
How about one that goes " Save the planet. As long as there is a buck to be made for Gubbermint or big business."

Just to get the record straight!  "" Save the planet. As long as there is a buck to be made for Gubbermint or big business."" is my quote of someone else.  I'm sorry but I'm just not in the government conspiracy world.  I'm just tired of incompetent people making far reaching decisions for masses of people without understanding the full consequences.    Is Hawaii's utility commission stupid, ignorant or paid for?  I don't know.  Did they kick the gonads off the camel that was challenging oil produced electricity - Yes.  Oh, and the quote is unfortunately very close to the truth.  Hence, sustainable energy must be shown to support big government and/or good profits for the capitalistic marketeers.  For me; it's driving me off the grid hopefully in the next five years.  That's the dream.

Casey

As one edjumacated fool to another.  My colleague was most lucky with the 120 volts DC.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: guest23837 on May 30, 2016, 10:05:17 AM
Quote
How about one that goes " Save the planet. As long as there is a buck to be made for Gubbermint or big business."

Just to get the record straight!  "" Save the planet. As long as there is a buck to be made for Gubbermint or big business."" is my quote of someone else.  I'm sorry but I'm just not in the government conspiracy world.  I'm just tired of incompetent people making far reaching decisions for masses of people without understanding the full consequences.    Is Hawaii's utility commission stupid, ignorant or paid for?  I don't know.  Did they kick the gonads off the camel that was challenging oil produced electricity - Yes.  Oh, and the quote is unfortunately very close to the truth.  Hence, sustainable energy must be shown to support big government and/or good profits for the capitalistic marketeers.  For me; it's driving me off the grid hopefully in the next five years.  That's the dream.

Casey

It's not always a government conspiracy sometimes it's the easy way out for those that are in power. For example in Ireland most governments are coalitions. A few years ago in order to make up the numbers a large party brought the green party on board in order to get into government. The leader of the green party is a one trick pony, interested only in wind power. Of course they are unreliable so oil and gas powered plants have to be kept running for when the wind stops blowing. If you erect a small wind turbine without planning permission you'll be made take it down. Planning permission will sometimes be granted for larger turbines that feed into the grid but something to charge batteries? forget about it.

This was "government policy" not because everyone in the government was fans of wind turbines rather it was because some politicians would agree to the tail wagging the dog so they could have power.

As one edjumacated fool to another.  My colleague was most lucky with the 120 volts DC.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: guest23837 on May 30, 2016, 05:13:56 PM
Sadly Ireland doesn't have enough sunshine to make solar viable although  some people have solar panels that will give you tepid water on a good day. The government is fine with this they charge 23% VAT (its a charge you can collect without a firearm) on the equipment and certification and they know it's not terribly efficient.

We do have plenty of wind turbines, we even pay a bit extra about, 10% on our electricity bills, to subsidize them, this is called a public service obligation levy. There are many wind farm and plans to build many more, there's a plan, plot? to build a turbine 169 meters tall in the valley below my house.

So Ireland is pretty much well covered with wind turbines Mr Glort and you may ask if electricity is unusually cheap in Ireland. Well it's the most expensive in Europe. And what about the wind turbines you ask in disbelief? Well ALL the electricity they generate goes to the UK through an inter-connector to the UK can meet "carbon targets"

This was and is a green party initiative. My wife doesn't understand why I want to go off grid!
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on May 30, 2016, 06:21:34 PM
So Johndoh, 

Our hearts are beating.  How expensive is a KWH in North Ireland?  I assume you're not in the Republic as the excess electricity is going to the United Kingdom. 

Here's a map showing how close the Irelands and Germany are  to the same latitude. https://www.google.com/maps/@51.528308,-0.3817765,5z (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.528308,-0.3817765,5z)  Just  a couple of clicks above Seattle.

Has anyone seen a good review of how the Tesla wall functions?

Casey




Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: guest23837 on May 30, 2016, 08:42:57 PM
I live in the Republic of Ireland, cost of electric is 17.26c KwH plus an annual charge of €146.00  plus PSO levy @ 10% plus VAT @13%. I'm on a rural tariff I believe it's marginally cheaper in urban areas
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on August 16, 2016, 04:00:29 AM
It occurs to me that some types of geothermal should be practical in some places. Perhaps those active zones are just not stable enough?

dieselgman

I have been to new Zealand a few times to do Photoshoots.  The geothermal in areas there is amazing. You could literally sink a steam well in your own back yard and some people have.
Around the most active area, rotoroua, Geo is huge for heating and spas.  I don't think there is a motel in the place that doesn't have a geo thermal spa in every room.  The water is so hot you generally have to add cold water to make it bearable.  Depends where you are and what your tolerance is but it isn't lacking in warmth, put it that way.

There is no tap to turn off the Geo water, don't know if they can't for physical reasons with pressure etc or they just don't bother. It just overflows 24/7 and no greenee seems to whine about water wasteage.

The rotoroua convention centre/ indoor stadium is totally geo powered. They have a turbine for power and of course the place is heated the same way.  It's on a very active lake where you can walk around and see small steam geysers coming out of the lake shore and around.  It's got a 18" fence around it but of course like all good tourists we couldn't read Kiwi english so walked around and had a good look. It was amazing.
We went to a thermal park and the gysers there were the ones that shot into the air on command and smaller ones coming out of no where. there was a lake that steamed even though the day was near 30C and was far too hot to put your hand in.

They have a few geo power generation plants around the area mainly around Taupo where the geo park we went to was. They are building more plants ATM but the Rotorua council has of course laws on tapping the go power even for homeowners.  They have regulations ( read taxes) on this basically inexhaustible supply of power.  The temps of the geo ranges from 40 which is warm to 140 which is well past saturated steam.
Being the type I am, I'd be looking into a mini Geo powered Turbine no worries.

One thing about the place we learned, it stinks.  We were looking in a tourist guide and in a sub headline on an ad from one place it had " No Sulphur Smell". We wondered what that was about till we were about 20 Km away ans started accusing one another of ripe gaseous emissions.  Of course when they hadn't subsided for 10 min, the penny dropped. You do get a bit used to it after a few hours but when you first get near the lake... Hooley dooley!


As an aside, the place really did my head in. having been self employed about 90% of my life and studied business, marketing and sales, I was surprised how quiet the place was. There was a strip of over 1KM down the main drag where it was only hotels one beside the other, both sides of the road.  each one only appeard to have a few cars there.  we went into town for dinner and the end;ess restaurants were the same.  miles of them, hundreds of seats and about 10% occupancy and that's being generous.
We found a Pub with a nice outdoor setting and when the girl brought us our food I started chatting her up saying that I supposed the busy season, Christmas was just around the corner. She looked a bit blankly and said , no not really. I said oh, when do all the crowds come?  She looked again and said we don't really get a rush at any time, it's pretty much constant.  I said Oh, ok, is this the quiet time then? No, it's always like this.

I'm thinking WTF?? I said, thinking she may not know the area, Have you been living here long? She said yes, I was born here and still live at home.  By now I'm thinking the nice girl must be on drugs or something.
You can't have 5000 hotel beds in a little tourist  town along with endless restaurants and have them survive at 10% saturation.
I asked some more people about the rush and got the same answers, it's the same here all the time, just like this..... W T F ???

Don't know how that works. It's just not little owner/ operator places, there is an international Chain hotel there with a 7 storey building and that probably didn't even have 20 cars in the carpark either.
I felt sorry for the locals so we stayed a couple of nights in the smaller places but although clean, they were woefully out of date.  No wonder the owners rolled out teh threadbare red carpet though and thanked us like we saved their lives.  the 3rd night it was the big hotel though for some real comfort and a bit of luxury. Didn't even take much talking to get a massive upgrade with them into a suite for a middle range room price.

I got to admit, my real "Idealistic" power is Hydro.  Solar is nice and practical and all that but not enough real fun involved as in no moving parts.  Hydro would be great to play with in my old age.
Of course i live on the driest freaking continent in teh world  so water  sufficent for hydro is limited here even if we do have the worlds largest hydro scheme at one point.
I have spent many hours looking for properties that I could do a hydro setup on and there are some around although always distant from any major town let alone city.  I could probably pick something up for $100K  But that is a lot of money to pay for a hobby!!  Not to say I wouldn't do it anyway.  I am not much of a traveler but I and the Mrs could be very happy in a remote bush location with a shack built from a few shipping containers and spend some quiet time away from the rat race.  I think we would still have to have a place in the rat race as well, too much quiet freaks me out so i'd have to acclimatise.   :0)

Lister in the shed, panels on the roof, water spinning up some various home made turbines and hydro generators.....  I could set up my own power company!  :0)


Hi there, Glort

Rotorua is an odd place - you can't extrapolate the Rotorua experience out to the rest of New Zealand

It had a big tourism development a bunch of years ago when overseas tourism to NZ was basically bus-load after bus-load of Japanese tourists . . .

That model doesn't exist any more but the infrastructure still does

And tourists want a lot more these days than some hot pools and a Cultural Experience or two - and so they should

I am oversimplifying here, of course, but that's the guts of it.

New Zealand is almost completely "renewable" electricity generation - lots of wind turbines and a big "battery bank" of hydro

Electric cars would be great here if the price came down - we pay around $0.20 - $0.25 per kw/h; but almost $NZ 2.00 a litre (sort of $US 10.00 a gallon-ish) for our gas

And we are ripped-off on our back-into-the-meter solar just like everywhere else in the world . . . .

I have an off-the-grid property in development at the moment & the budget looks something like:

(1) Old 1939 6/1 CS and 5kW ST-clone - about $NZ 2000-2500 once all up and running
(2) Solar panels, inverter, batteries - around the $NZ 4500-7000 depending on spec
(3) 6kVA Honda generator in use whenever I am there at the moment - I think it was $NZ 1600?

Call it $NZ 10,000 and it is workable at that level in combination with a house with solar hot-water in summer and wetback hot-water in winter, LPG (Propane) hob in the kitchen, and a bit of a hands-on approach to managing the technology

If the average NZ power bill is something like $NZ 200 a month - that's a lot of months to pay it all back . . . .

But what isn't mentioned is the cost of getting the power to a rural site like mine - often $NZ 10K - 40K up front

Got the old Lister in the workshop now with the head off - a work in progress

Very interesting Forum you guys run here.  Thanks
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on August 16, 2016, 03:13:10 PM
Propane kitchen cooker.
Solar water booster and maybe a propane water heater.  (My next project to complete.)
Propane clothes dryer.


As I understand Hawaii is a pretty warm place, have you ever looked into Biogas?
In places like india, they use anaerobic digesters that are small enough to fit on the balcony of a flat in Mumbai but still produce enough gas for home cooking needs. The digesters are just fed with household scraps.
In the country where there is an abundance of manure or grass etc, they make digesters large enough to power a bank of IC engine generators. Some they make as concrete pits or domed in ground tanks, others are thick rubber bags.

From what I have seen, something constructed from a 1000L IBC could produce a very worthwhile amount of gas that would do more than provide enough for just cooking.  If you could make a Hybrid gas/ electric hot water system, you'd really be laughing.  Use the electric when the sun is shining for hot water and the gas to boost it when the sun is not around.  Could also size up to suit the needs of your clothes dryer. 
are gas clothes dryers common in the states?  they are not here and extremely exy. Pretty much only the commercial units are gas.

I have to admit, I think of a lot of things like this in terms of panels cost now.  I could get a good used elcetric dryer for $100 every day of the week. I can't imagine getting a gas one under a grand, if at all.
If I add $900 worth of panels to the roof, even at preimum used price of $100 for a 250W unit, I have got another 2KW of panels, enough to run the thing plus of course a heck of a lot of other things when the dryer is not being used those 3-6 hours a week.

I'd like to give this biogas a go next summer. I think my Daughters Rabbits would provide the perfect start up fuel and the slops from my veg oil processing could also be used (Sparingly). Never a shortage of household scraps here either. It would be pretty amazing to run an engine off this gas even just for the wow factor of doing it once.


Quote
Conversion of my pond pumps from direct electric to air powered via small compressors with timers.


I saw on a YT vid a guy was talking about storing the energy from his solar panels in the form of compressed air instead of electricity in  batteries.  If this is what you are talking about, Could you elaborate on how you use that energy, IE, in what you use the air to drive?
Are you going to use an air motor of some sort to convert it back to heat or power or use it some other way?

It doesn't sound very efficient but then again, neither is the 6C a KWH we get for selling power back to the grid here.  I was thinking that Gas tanks out of cars that have expired are not exactly thin on the ground here so storage could be fairly economical if there were a practical way of reclaiming the energy.

Is there much availability of used panels in the states?  I imagine older ones of 80-100W wouldn't be hard to get but here 250W panels 3 yo or less are not hard to find. In our northern sunny state which has a very high uptake of solar on roofs, There are that many going that cheap I'm seriously considering going for a drive and bringing back a covered trailer full.

I didn't get my panels I was going to. Issues with my availability and the guy selling them however we are planning for monday.  I also managed to do a deal for 4 for $150.  I'm thinking I might hit him up when I get there and see if he'll do 6 for $200. That would give me 2.5 Kilo so  decent start to a system.

Does anyone know about these Micro inverters?
I understand the basic principal of them taking the panel voltage to mains voltage but I'm wondering if they have to be grid tied or could I couple a pair of panels up to a micro and then run an appliance direct from that?
They would be very hand for a system where one did not want to use batteries or go into the mains. The inverters I have are grid tie so won't work independently.
They still aren't real cheap here being something relatively new but they could be worth the result.



Actually the primary fuel source for those community methane digesters is the community outhouse that dumps into the vessel.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Hugh Conway on September 18, 2016, 12:51:38 AM
re batteries:
I'm off-grid with a 24V system. Using 2V cells like these http://www.davidsonbattery.com/product_p/85t17.htm That works out to about 20 KWH, of which I use about 10% daily. They do require distilled water, but not very often, maybe once every 3 months.
A nearby friend just had to replace his battery bank. Also 2V cells, but 85T15 that gave him something like 17.8KWH. His battery bank lasted 21 years, charged by solar panels and micro hydro.
The storage is really the sticking point, it is costly (and heavy when using lead acids)
IMHO, going with a grid-tie system to eliminate batteries is a non starter though. Many Electricity providers are cancelling their power buy-back agreements, or drastically reducing their buy-back rates. Those roof-top home grid tie systems are not popular with the utility companies, and when the power goes out, you are without just like everyone else. Apparently most grid-tie inverters cannot be used with a battery system.

Using solar panels as a roof.....+1. We did not seal between panels, but do use them as a roof to store hay.

Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on September 19, 2016, 09:51:44 PM
If you do cover the bottom side of the PV array for heat harvesting, be warned, that in summer, you need to be sure they will never overheat. If they overheat, the glues delaminate and it all comes apart. 
And the warmer a panel is, the less power it produces.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: EdDee on September 20, 2016, 11:17:02 AM
Hey Glort,

On the subject of back-feeding an old mechanical meter - Have you tried it?

I was fortunate a while back to get a few meters of various ages and vintage - all scrapped, with a bit of cosmetic/closure/lense damage mostly ... They were all working reasonably well, but needed calibration of course... While I was playing with them, I noticed an interesting little mechanism on the worm wheel that drove the counter/display digits. It was an anti-runback ratchet and pawl - when backfeeding these meters, they would spin a few revs in reverse and then hit the stop... All but one out of about 20 or so had this mechanism in place, deep in the innards of the meter, not easy to get at without removing covers and fascia... The one that didnt have the ratchet, had been tampered with, by the looks of it, so I reckon the ratchet mech must probably be pretty standard... And judging by the ages of these things, been around for quite a while too...

Just saying....

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: EdDee on September 20, 2016, 04:35:43 PM
Glort!

You are a man of wisdom and absolute integrity!! (Along with an unmatched sense of humour!)

Lemme guess.... All this.....and good looks too?

I love it!!

Cheers
E
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on September 20, 2016, 07:11:18 PM
Hi glort,

I'm sorry but I have to ask.  How fast do you type - keyboard?  

Now that I'm here.  Does anyone have practical experience with these http://aquionenergy.com/ (http://aquionenergy.com/)?

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on September 20, 2016, 08:27:52 PM
Casey-  look closely at the peak power output of the Aquion systems.  It is very low. 
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Tom on September 20, 2016, 08:49:39 PM
Pretty inefficient on the recharge cycle too.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on September 21, 2016, 07:08:08 AM
It seems like a big breakthrough in batteries is right around the corner, but then that's been the case for the last 100 years.  I bought 10 more cheap wet lead marine batteries 6 months ago; they give me 4.5 years of service for $1000.   

I'll be happy to switch to something better in 4 years, but I'm not holding my breath.

Wet Lead Acid batteries are still the best bang for the $ for off grid batteries.  Pity Moore's law doesn't apply to batteries!


Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on September 21, 2016, 06:57:30 PM
BruceM:  What a great point.  So what is the formula for converting the crank hours or ? into simple KW information?  I use the large ones in a farm-golf cart and my ATV project is based on the smaller deep cycle cheapski batteries. 

glort:  I think one of selling points is the lack of contamination crap on your property and the rest of the environment.  You know some people are not concerned with heavy metals or the lead contamination of drinking waters - you get the idea. The drinking water here in Hawaii is only 25 years old.  That means we are just starting to drink the stuff poured or spilled onto the ground more serious than lava ash.  Some of us are even willing to pay a premium for that margin.

I'll go back to the site and even read some of the information.  It's a nice video.

Thanks to you all for your thoughts.

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on September 21, 2016, 10:03:03 PM
Casey, it's getting harder to find good figures for Marine batteries.  My old Group 27 sized ones were rated 110 AH at 20 hour discharge rate (5a draw).  My new group 29 batteries aren't rated in AH.  The reserve minutes at 25amp draw could be used to compute capacity, but it will be quite low due to the high discharge rate.

Marine batteries work very well for me because I have a 120V series string, and my maxium current draw is 10a, and my typical is 1-3 amps.  My current 10 marine group 29 batteries would be roughly 125AH x 120 Volts= 15 KWH 

For a typical 48v inverter system, your currents will likely be much (10x?) higher and you will need a battery with more capacity. Nothing smaller than an L16 type will hold up well.  You really need to  take some daily meter readings and figure out what you usage must be.   Then after you price the batteries you'll want to find a way to reduce your consumption!

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Tom on September 22, 2016, 05:35:43 PM
This conversation reminds me how happy I am to be off-grid. My thought to rid my self from as much of the grid as possible, in a suburban environment, is to build a battery bank just big enough to get through the night. On cloudy days just use the grid to recharge. I'd imagine that could cut about 90% of usage.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on September 22, 2016, 07:01:03 PM
Tom: 
Quote
On cloudy days just use the grid to recharge. I'd imagine that could cut about 90% of usage.
How do you stop your battery power from going down the grid tie?

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Tom on September 22, 2016, 08:15:02 PM
Off-grid inverters will allow you to sell or not and recharge from the grid or not. In our system "extra" energy goes to an electric hot water heater when the batteries are full. That heater feeds a LP heater pre-heated water or not depending on the time of the year.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on October 14, 2016, 02:27:19 PM
How many of these "off grid" all green homes have municipal water a gas fridge, gas stove, gas water heater , gas clothes dryer and gas furnace ? 
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on October 14, 2016, 05:57:51 PM
Aloha buickanddeere,

As I coast towards Off-Gridness part of that delusion is moving my heating needs as much as possible off electricity and towards gas.  That isn't easy but it's part of pulling the plug.  Just so many of you lucky bums know, we're paying well over $3 a gallon for propane.  I like the hot water tank storage of electricity.  That seems to be the new strategy here in Hawaii now that grid tie has been converted into a 36,500 % annualized money maker for the power company.  Rather than hook up a hot water collector on the roof just install a stand alone PV solar dedicated hot water system.  Once you look at the butt kicking prices that are charged for hot water collection systems here PV looks kind of "Priced right."

And I've wondered the same thing how independent "Off-Grid" people are from their gas supply line.  Is anyone working with compressed natural gas for home use yet?

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Tom on October 14, 2016, 07:38:07 PM
There are new water heaters that work like a heat pump that will maximize the hot water per kw you get. As a bonus you can duct the cold air into the house in the summer.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 14, 2016, 10:16:27 PM
I think DIY solar flat panel collectors is the way to heat water.  Buiditsolar has the details.  My 4x32 foot panel is copper with aluminum fins per builditsolar.  I have endless hot water via 180 foot (4- 45' coils in parallel) of 1/2'' copper heat exchanger in my home built 800 gallon insulated storage tank.  The same tank is used directly for my home in-floor heat. 





Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Tom on October 15, 2016, 01:40:32 AM
DIY may be cheaper, but for a purchased system in HI Casey may do better with something like this. http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-water-heating/domestic-hot-water/heat-pump-water-heaters To heat water and cool/dehumidify the home is a 2fer. When the tank is hot the electricity from PV panels can be used for other things. 
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 15, 2016, 06:25:20 PM
It's true that flat panel solar panels, which are easy to build your own, don't work at all on overcast or cloudy days.  But if you look at the price of the evacuated tubes, and consider the amount of them to equal my 4 by 32 foot flat panel, you see why compromising on cloudy days is not a bad compromise.  My homebuilt EPDM lined 800 gallon insulated tank lets me ride through cloudy days, even in winter.  Domestic hot water use has no appreciable impact on my hot water storage temp.  Heating the house does!









Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on October 16, 2016, 06:36:20 PM
Gosh glort,

You whipped out all the reasons that PV hot water is becoming "The" choice here in Hawaii.  Two PV panels with micro inverters can be purchased here for under $1,000 while a water collector system is going come in around $6,000 but that would be installed and all new.  Of course getting micro inverters to fire without a grid tie hasn't crossed my desk as of yet.

Because I've got a flat panel water collector already on the roof I'm going with the DIY lines in the drain plug hole.  Sort of like this only without the cold water supply.  http://www.solardirect.co.nz/scv.html (http://www.solardirect.co.nz/scv.html).  (You'll need to page down once.)

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 17, 2016, 04:16:17 AM
You can build a flat panel collector for much less than PV, and there's the matter of 85% efficiency for hot water direct heating vs 16% for PV.
Check out the variety of diy flat panel designs at builditsolar.com.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on February 19, 2017, 06:09:26 PM
Wow.  I've decided to read your novelettes one paragraph at a time.  Reads like you're having a lot of fun.  Normally I'd mention thermos to someone that is hot water fixated But I respect the learning that is happening in your journey.  And then it struck me.  There is a correlation between caffeine abuse and hyper-keyboarding. 

We have some visitors from central Washington, USA and live about a 100 miles from Grand Coulee dam.  They pay 2.6 cents a kilowatt.  How'd you like to sell solar panels in that town?  Grand Coulee is one of the early 20th century make work projects sponsored by President Roosevelt.  I wonder what the return on investment that federal program has returned to the people.  I wander.

Thanks for the update glort,

Casey

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on February 20, 2017, 10:14:36 PM
You can build a flat panel collector for much less than PV, and there's the matter of 85% efficiency for hot water direct heating vs 16% for PV.
Check out the variety of diy flat panel designs at builditsolar.com.



In locations with freezing weather using a PV system can eliminate the complexity of draining, pumping and complex valving.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on February 20, 2017, 10:49:27 PM
Single tank drainback systems have become the new standard because they eliminate freeze/antifreeze and stagnation issues.  If the circ pump fails, the system is automatically safe. 

Certainly PV is at the point where it can be used for water heating and such. for retrofits. It just doesn't hold a candle to direct water heating for BTU's per square meter of panel.

My home (1100 SF superinsulated) heating and domestic hot water are heated by a single 4x32 foot homebuilt copper and aluminum fin panel. My backup propane was $60 a year last winter.  It would take about 6x the PV area in panels to match that winter performance.  That would be a hell of a lot of panels, racks, and wiring and electronics.  The average time between repair for the current transformerless grid tie inverters is 3-4 years.  They also put a lot of high frequency EMI on the home power which some independent researchers think is a serious health stressor.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on February 21, 2017, 05:22:14 AM
Glort, take a look at drain-back hot water systems at builditsolar.com.  I built one of his copper with aluminum fin designs.  Quite easy to construct.  Mine is a Hizer setup- horizonal "risers".  With drain back systems, you use a controller with a themistor attached to the solar panel close to the exit, and one at the bottom of your drainback/storage tank.  The pump only starts when it's hot enough, and stops when there is no net gain or with a max tank temperature.  The solar panels are designed to be able to stagnate without water in them.  Mine are tilted for best winter gain, when I'm heating the house.  It's shaded in the summer by a small roof overhang (intentional design) until afternoon to reduce excess capacity in summer and avoid extended stagnation.  I only have my backup hot water propane on for Dec-Feb.  It still carries all but $60. worth of propane a year. 



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: carlb23 on February 21, 2017, 10:46:38 AM
I built a drain back system into the wall of a my shed when i was constructing it.  The south facing wall is at a 35 degree angle to the sun for best winter performance for me.  The collector has vertical risers and is 8 x 12' for a total collector size of 96sf.  I use a controller that cost about 100 dollars and it has 3 sensors one at the collector one at the bottom of the tank and one at the top of the tank.  I also built a parabolic reflector that tracks the sun.  It is 4 x 8' and is a single axis design angled for winter performance as well.  both are drain back both work really well.   If you have the room they really do work great and produce a lot of hot water.   I use mine to preheat my domestic water.  Normal tank temps in the winter are 124 degrees and in summer i have it shutoff at 130 degrees.  I use two hot air heaters for aux heat in the winter one is 48sf the other 100sf and these also work great.  All are controlled by a simple snap switch. on at 120 degrees collector temp off at 90 degrees collector temp.  they have been running for over 10 years with 0 maintenance needed.   
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on February 21, 2017, 02:00:17 PM
I think DIY solar flat panel collectors is the way to heat water.  Buiditsolar has the details.  My 4x32 foot panel is copper with aluminum fins per builditsolar.  I have endless hot water via 180 foot (4- 45' coils in parallel) of 1/2'' copper heat exchanger in my home built 800 gallon insulated storage tank.  The same tank is used directly for my home in-floor heat. 

Not enough sun here for such a system from November through February. 






Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on February 21, 2017, 04:57:31 PM
Hi Carl,
I'm not surprised that you have a DIY, technically savy solar hot water setup; your projects are always smart, and technically impressive.  Reflector systems have the advantage of being able to produce useful temperatures on hazy or cloudy days (at reduced rate), which my flat panel doesn't. 

What did you use for reflector material, and did you glaze over the parabola or leave it open?  Did you use evacuated tubes?

Bruce

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: carlb23 on February 21, 2017, 05:46:04 PM
Hi Carl,
I'm not surprised that you have a DIY, technically savy solar hot water setup; your projects are always smart, and technically impressive.  Reflector systems have the advantage of being able to produce useful temperatures on hazy or cloudy days (at reduced rate), which my flat panel doesn't. 

What did you use for reflector material, and did you glaze over the parabola or leave it open?  Did you use evacuated tubes?

Bruce



The reflector is made from 4 2x4' mirror grade stainless steel sheets. the parabola is not covered and i couldn't get an 8' long evacuated tube so i encased the receiver in a Borosilicate Glass tube sealed it up good at both ends  and vacuumed the air out with a air conditioner vacuum pump to 10" of vacuum.
i has leaked some of the vacuum out but it seems to have stabilized at 6" which is fine by me.  I am using a simple cheap Chinese pump (12 dollars) with a cheap adjustable voltage regular (less than a dollar) to adjust the dc pump speed for optimal heat transfer and flow. a simple old laptop power supply is more than enough to supply the pump.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on February 21, 2017, 06:10:53 PM
Is it a full moon?  So many contributions in only one night.

I think the saving grace of using PV for hot water is that they also produce electricity when your tank comes up to 160 degrees or so.  How many showers can you take in the Summer?

Hey glort:  Thanks for being a good sport and taking my posts as intended.

Too bad photos are a bit tricky here as I'd like to see carlb23's system. 



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on February 21, 2017, 07:05:35 PM
Thanks, Carl.  I"d love to see a picture of your reflector setup!  DIY vacuum tube - a very advanced design!

For my neighbor's new place (superinsulated, double wall home in progress) we tried some of the cheap 12V Topsflow circulation pumps.  One for their in floor heat has been in service for a year so far.  My system uses a Lang D5 Vario 12V pump, which can JUST make the 8 foot lift to my panel with enough flow to fill the system at startup.  I added a circuit to slow it down after flow is established.

Casey, I certainly agree that adding PV to boost an electric hot water heater during the day could certainly be worthwhile.

I could justify the expense of a solar hat water system since it does both house heating and domestic hot water. Plus my home is off grid, so hot water storage as energy storage makes more sense. (You'd be nuts to use batteries ($) to store PV energy for water heating.)  The side benefit is that my DIY EPDM rubber sheet lined 800 gallon insulated storage tank needed for house heating (2-3 cloudy days carry through)  has a large copper heat exchanger (180 feet total of 1/2 soft copper in 4 parallel coils) in the tank that means ENDLESS domestic hot water for laundry.  I've gotten spoiled on the hot water situation. 




Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: carlb23 on February 21, 2017, 08:37:06 PM
I'll take a few pics when i get a chance.  If i can't get them to post here i will upload them to photobucket and put a link here.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: carlb23 on February 23, 2017, 06:33:10 PM
I took a few pics of my 8' x 12' solar shed wall and 4' x 8' parabolic trough I will try to upload them.  

http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/carlb2323/library/?sort=2&page=2

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: carlb23 on February 23, 2017, 06:34:30 PM
I  posted link couldn't get pics to work.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on February 23, 2017, 07:43:06 PM
The parabolic reflector is a nice piece of engineering, Carl.  (Flat panels job also 1st rate.) 
What is your actuator for the sun tracking and did you do your own hardware for the tracker electronics?

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: carlb23 on February 23, 2017, 10:27:28 PM
its a 21" linear actuator that i got for  30 dollars and a Tiny Tracker for the electronics.  the tiny tracker works great.   I could afford to move the mounting point on the actuator to get a little more travel but it is only missing about 1/2 hour of sun in early morning.  I have some constants based on the location of the trough to the house but it was my best option for the installation.   The collectors are feeding a 275 gallon tank in the basement.   I decided to opt for keeping the collector close to the house to minimize heat loss moving the water from the basement to the collectors.  Both are drain back systems 

I only use it to preheat our domestic hot water, the tank has a 250' copper coil in it that city water circulates  through heating the water before it gets to our electric water heater.   While we have natural gas at our house we generate so much electricity with our solar (33 Mwh a year) that we never need to use natural gas unless the outside temp dips below 0 degrees F or we get freezing rain which renders our air source heat pump almost useless.

We also have about 150 sqft of solar air heaters which do a fantastic job of heating our house during the day in the winter time.   On a sunny day at 25 degrees f outside the house (2675 sqft not counting the basement)will heat to 74 degrees by late afternoon. solar air heaters are very easy to build and very inexpensive. I have had zero problems with them.  I built the first one in 2004 and the second one in 2006
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on February 28, 2017, 08:59:38 AM
And I'm stuck repairing gutters for the April showers.  Up the ladder, down the ladder, up the ladder, down the ladder.  Where is the glory in maintenance?

Wow.  33 MW a year.  33,000 KW is worth over $10,000 here in Hawaii.  My math must be wrong.  Of course in Wenatchee, Washington it's only worth $828. 

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: carlb23 on February 28, 2017, 10:37:08 AM
And I'm stuck repairing gutters for the April showers.  Up the ladder, down the ladder, up the ladder, down the ladder.  Where is the glory in maintenance?

Wow.  33 MW a year.  33,000 KW is worth over $10,000 here in Hawaii.  My math must be wrong.  Of course in Wenatchee, Washington it's only worth $828. 
Casey

about $5100 here, last i checked 15.5 cents Kwh
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: oldgoat on February 28, 2017, 02:10:18 PM
The electricity suppliers here pay $0.5 per Kwh but limit the size of the inverter to 5 Kw and according to my contract will do so until 2025. Any changes such as change of owner etc. and all bets are off the price goes down to $0.08 per Kwh. Here in summer we have at least 6 hours when it puts out 4 Kw. so i have a big credit with the supplier. Some day I will ask them to pay me that credit and I will see how forthcoming they are. Then there is another problem the tax office treats this as income so I will wait till I have a low income year before I make a grab for it.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on February 28, 2017, 03:50:15 PM
Thanks, Carl, for the details on your actuator, tracker, and system.  Exceptionally well done!

 I was a fan of air collectors about 27 years ago; the first home I built had both passive and active hot air panel heating; 600 SF of hot air panels in the south (53 degree ) roof face heated air which was recirculated through  2 feet deep, 3 inch rock under the  the concrete slab.  I did this because it was well known by then that rock storage systems generally became too mold infested to use for direct air heating. They system worked well but took a fair amount of energy to move the around; total of 3/4 HP during the sunny part of the day.   A guy named Sanderson used it as a secondary heating system in his amazing 100% solar heated homes in Vermont.  The heat output of my roof air collector was comparable to 48,000 watts of electric resistive heating; the lack of insulation under the rock storage was a serious design flaw.  The soil and rock did warm up, but the ongoing losses downward to the earth were huge. 

I prefer hot water over air panels now that I'm off grid because it takes so little power to move it.  My house heat pump is 20 watts, the solar pump about the same.  Super insulation keeps the solar hot water heating demand very low and never needs maintenance or replacement.




Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: carlb23 on March 01, 2017, 12:03:20 AM
our two air heaters are powered by small blowers .80 amps @ 115 vac  each.  The design does not take a lot of power to move the air since convection is doing most of the work.  Good sunny day outside temp 25 degrees F  indoor air 72 degrees output from air heater at 100 cfm is 145 degrees f.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on March 01, 2017, 05:42:31 PM
carlb23

State of Washington, USA has a similar 50 cents a KW rebate program that will last a few more years.  Some folks have done rather nicely by it, thank you; but not me - darn it.  However they settle up every year.  I'd be very uncomfortable with a state agency owing money from years gone by.

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: carlb23 on March 01, 2017, 07:47:32 PM
our daughter and son in law live in Olympia Washington and they had a 6kw system installed using panels and inverters  that were built in state and they do get the 50 cent rate.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: veggie on March 02, 2017, 02:42:16 PM
Carlb,

Thats a really nice system you put on the shed.
I have 3 spare evacuated tube panels that need a home and heating my small barn would be a perfect application.
The wall to which I would mount the panels faces due south so that would be a great location.
In my part of the world we can get -35C temps so drainback systems are not used here. Gylcol circulation and differential temp controllers with a small circ pump connecting the system to a buffer tank and wall radiators is what I have in mind.

Carl, how do you dump your heat in summer.?
My plan is to tarp cover the panels. or...push the heat to an external radiator mounted on the outside wall.

Veggie
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on March 02, 2017, 06:45:45 PM
Minus 35C is pretty nasty.  I'm baffled though why that would make drainback solar unpopular. There is no water in the plumbing until the panel is hot enough to raise the storage temp.  Any system (pump) failure results in the same drained back to the tank state. 
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on March 02, 2017, 07:04:39 PM
As a sidewalk superintendent it would seem Drain-back is what -35 anything would be the best answer.  And the same would go for too high temperatures or just turn the darn thing off in the warm season.

Ahhha.  The system freezes before the sun comes up and can't be pumped?

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: carlb23 on March 03, 2017, 11:30:22 AM
Carlb,



Carl, how do you dump your heat in summer.?
My plan is to tarp cover the panels. or...push the heat to an external radiator mounted on the outside wall.

Veggie

With the angle of the shed and parabolic trough they are most efficient at winter solstice so they are much less efficient in the summer.   the controllers have high limit settings and will turn off water flow to the parabolic reflector and shed wall when temps reach the high limit.  Sitting stagnate will not hurt the parabolic trough.  In the summer i usually just turn off the linear actuator and leave it sit facing east and it will only add a little amount in the very early day.   The shed wall will provide all of the hot water needed in the summer without the use of the parabolic trough.  Again with the angle it isn't all that efficient in the summer     
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: veggie on March 12, 2017, 09:42:39 PM

BruceM,

Sorry I missed your comment above regarding Drainback systems and very cold climates.
I have read several sources that recommend against it if the snowfall is high in the region and temps stay below -15C for extended periods.

One is in my book "Solar Water Heating" by Bob Ramlow (A Mother Earth News Publication)

Here is another example..
http://shop.latitude51solar.ca/Closed-Loop-versus-Drain-Back-s/97.htm (http://shop.latitude51solar.ca/Closed-Loop-versus-Drain-Back-s/97.htm)
See the very last paragraph.

The reasoning seems to be that if the pump were to stay on (circulating) due to a switch or controller failure, then the coolant would freeze in the collector during the night and and possibly split the piping.

The issue I have with this reasoning in that there could be additional safeguards put into the system such as using "DowFrost" glycol or propelene glycol mixed in a ratio to give -40 degF protection.
Also, a flow detection device could be added to test if flow is occurring when incoming liquid is cooler than the interior.
(These additions do add some complexity to an otherwise simple system.)

For simplicity, I do prefer the drainback type system and I may still pursue it using some additional safety features.

PS: I scored a 50 gallon solar hot water tank !
It has two internal coils for heat exchange and also a heating element for emergency backup which can be powered by generator or wind turbine or PV panels.
It should make a good heat reservoir.

cheers,
Veggie
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: veggie on March 12, 2017, 10:02:33 PM
For anyone interested, here is a good tutorial on solar H2O drainback systems.
Commonly confused with solar H2O "draindown" systems. (There is a difference)

Drain back = GOOD
Drain down = BAD

Helpful design and installation tips for drainback systems:
http://www.uvm.edu/~gflomenh/CDAE106/readings/sdhw86.pdf (http://www.uvm.edu/~gflomenh/CDAE106/readings/sdhw86.pdf)

...and why drain down systems are problematic (are recommended against)
http://www.sunnyhotwater.com/draindown.html (http://www.sunnyhotwater.com/draindown.html)

Terminology is important in this instance because I found several sites on the web that were erroneously calling a drainback system by the frowned upon name of draindown system.  :-\

cheers,
Veggie
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on March 13, 2017, 01:43:45 AM
Dear Veggie,
The article you referenced was written by an idiot who forgot to learn about the topic he was writing about.  This is a common human problem, and affects most journalists severely.

There is NO VALVE in drainback systems, and they are fine for cold climates.  If the pump fails, the system drains back to the storage tank, period.  

Here's what the idiot wrote:

"A drain back system has critical weakness in cold climates. It relies on a mechanical valve to open and close the system to drain itself. Any mechanical item is prone to failure and a failure of a drain back system in freezing climates would result in nearly total loos as the collector and piping would be completely destroyed by the expanding ice. For this reason we feel the risk of damage is too great to overcome the small advantages of a drain back system and as such we do not offer any type of drain back solar water heating systems."

Drainback systems are well time and service life proven in cold climates.

Antifreeze is a problem because of cost and ongoing replacement cost.  When the panel stagnates, the antifreeze is ruined from overtemperature. It becomes acid and the pipes corrode faster.  It has to be replaced periodically, something humans do poorly.  Glycol systems really need a heat dump to not stagnate, but if the pump breaks down, oops, stagnation cooks the glycol.

Drainback systems require a bigger pump for starting since the water must be lifted the entire head from tank surface to top of panel, and at a flow rate high enough to keep the sloping return line full.  This can be solved with a multispeed pump, or a second pump on a timer for 10 minutes of starting only.  My system uses the 12 V, 20 watt Laing D5 Vario pump, and I added a little circuit to slow it down after 10 minutes.  It just barely had the flow needed at my 8 feet of head, I had to add a ball valve restriction on the return line.  




Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on March 13, 2017, 08:04:39 AM
One of the upsides of Hawaii - no minus temperatures.  OK, not even sub 60 temperatures.  I'm about half way there on a simple circulating system controlled by a differential thermostat.  Breaking through the roof is the next step.

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on March 13, 2017, 04:14:01 PM
By the way, the article Veggie listed for drainback systems shows a system which is much more complicated that mine.  A single tank drainback system only has one insulated storage tank, and only one pump. The top of the tank must be below the bottom of the panel and allow for slightly downward sloped plumbing from panel bottom to top of tank, and the pump MUST be mounted below the water level of the tank so that it stays primed.  I would avoid a complex system like the one shown in the article; each tank and pump has a service life and must be maintained.  These tanks with heat exchangers built in are very spendy. I say NO to anything that is not a SINGLE TANK drainback system.  

I dug through the floor of my shop building to get the tank below grade so I could have the simpler single tank system.  My 800 gallon tank is EPDM lined, with 3" polyisocyanurate foam board lining the hole.  The lid is two piece with 6" of foam, epdm covered underneath.  It's sturdy enough to allow me to use the space on top of it.  The water level is about a foot above the floor, which lets my pump be at floor level.  

For my neighbor's system, we are putting the storage tank outside, with the lid at ground level.  When we get to that next year, I'll post some pictures.

Here's a link to a short video that explains why I like single tank drainback systems: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlAfTYTA0Z0

I am using the storage tank water directly, with no heat exchanger for heating my house with in floor heat. I do this by modifying an air bleed valve to vent via silicone tube to a vacuum tank; the air bleed then works fine since it thinks it's still in a pressurized system.  A copper pipe heat exchanger preheats my domestic hot water. I shut down the backup propane water heaters all year, except for Dec-Feb.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: carlb23 on March 15, 2017, 11:16:29 AM
i am also using a single tank drain back system with both a flat panel collector and a parabolic trough feeding the same tank.  I use two pumps one for each collector and two controllers one for each collector.  there are no valves involved if there is any type of failure the water just drains back to the tank.   It can not freeze up gravity wont let it.  Once the pumps stop the collectors are empty in a minute or less leaving no time to freeze.
I control the flow by regulating the dc voltage going to the pump with a simple adjustable voltage regulator. 
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on March 15, 2017, 05:20:48 PM
So how hot do your tanks get?
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on March 15, 2017, 06:37:09 PM
My tank is limited to 140F by my pump controller settings.  The epdm rubber tank liner is rated to 170F but then I'd have to add an antiscald /temperature control mixer valve, so I decided to go the path of utter simplicity and longer liner life by reducing the max temperature to 140F.  My tanks stays at the max when I'm not heating the house.  In the winter the tank varies between 85F and 120F; the house heating load and cloudy days keep it working hard to catch up.

Flat panels are easy and fairly cheap to build, but they do not produce in cloudy or overcast days, ONLY in full sun. The evacuated tube type units fair better, though they may need variable flow rate to slow down enough for useful temperature gain on hazy days.  It's a storage tank size and cost trade off that you'd have to consider based on your own climate.  I prefer the simplicity of the flat panels, myself.



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: carlb23 on March 16, 2017, 11:26:06 AM
I only use mine for domestic hot water so i have the controllers set for 130 degrees
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on March 16, 2017, 08:12:03 PM
So you stop circulating water when the tank reaches 130 or 140 degrees respectively?  You'd also have a differential thermostat that comes one when the collector is a couple of degrees above the tank temperature?

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on March 16, 2017, 08:32:47 PM
You got it right, Casey.  My controller has temperature sensors at top and bottom of my tank, and one on the copper pipe coming out of panel. (Inside the panel on the backside.)  When that's at the set degrees above the bottom of the tank, the pump goes on high and starts filling up the panel.  If after running water through, it cools off below the bottom of the tank, it stops.  They difference between start and stop is called hysterisis, to keep the pump from short cycling.  

When the tank temperature is maxed out, the pump stops and the panel drains down and stagnates (sits baking in the sun) dry.  A stagnating panel gets to 350F, so you must choose materials and glazing with care.  In Hawaii, I think I would use nothing but tempered glass for glazing, since your sun is always overhead and your panel must be horizontal as well.  Here I can tilt my panel about 53 degrees and in the summer my panel is shaded except for a few hours in the afternoon at an oblique angle, so I can get away with polycarbonate glazing.  I have the most stagnation time in March,April, and Sept, Oct.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: carlb23 on March 17, 2017, 11:42:52 AM
my controller has three sensors one at the top of the storage tank one at the bottom of the storage tank and one at the collector.  It measures the hottest part of the tank the coldest part of the tank and the temp of the collector.   you can set what the differential temp is as well as max high temp and a number of other things.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on March 17, 2017, 04:28:34 PM
What angle do you set your panels?
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on March 17, 2017, 06:07:13 PM
Panel angle depends on your latitude, and you would normally optimize panel angle for the sun angle at your month with the greatest heating degree days.
Close counts.  If you are using polycarbonate glazing, you should also be trying to minimize stagnation time through the summer.

Casey, you are further north than I thought at 21 degrees of latitude.  If your goal is water heating alone,  your optimum panel angle varies between 45 degrees in on 1 January, to 27 degrees (from flat) at the end of June. 

For those farther north, you have to consider that winter optimum angle is steeper than the noon angle; take a look at your mid morning to mid afternoon optimum angles too.  Vertical isn't bad for winter gain in the mainland US, and can easily be in shade during most of the day in summer.

You can play around yourself using the calculator here:
https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/azel.html
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on March 18, 2017, 05:03:14 PM
Easy site.  Seattle is at 47.5 degrees latitude.  Then I tried this site.  http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php (http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php) which reports that the Sun is about 65 degrees to the surface of the earth at the Summer solstice.

The 65 degrees to the surface is what I find interesting.  This tells me that the optimal angle of the collectors would be 25 degrees as the complement for 90 degrees or perpendicular to the Sun.  Of course this is optimal for one day and starts to decay as the days accumulate before or after solstice.  On equinox the Sun is about 43 degrees so 47 degrees would provide the perpendicular relationship to the Sun.  I've decided to not worry about collection very much during the Fall and Winter months of the year.  Hence optimal collection angle for the Spring and Summer, without adjusting the angle, would be about 35 - 36 degrees.  http://learnframing.com/angle-calculator-slope-degrees/ (http://learnframing.com/angle-calculator-slope-degrees/)  suggests a 9/12 slope to achieve this attitude.

I feel like I'm missing something?

Casey

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on March 18, 2017, 07:35:19 PM
I think you got it well sorted out for your intended use.  Think about the middle angle for the  morning to afternoon for all the months.  Check the boundary months as well.  For winter, more vertical helps full day collection, for summer, more horizontal.  Close counts.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on March 19, 2017, 06:37:24 PM
  I kept track of the output of two sets of 10Kw grid tied systems on my road. One is a tracker and the other is fixed. approx 44.5 degree latitude.  Almost exactly  the tracker made 18,000Kw hr per year and the fixed 12,000Kw hr.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on March 19, 2017, 08:36:49 PM
That seems about right, B&D.  Now that PV panels are pretty cheap no one in the right mind would do a PV tracker except as a fun hobby project.  The cost of the tracer exceeds the cost of adding more fixed panels, which then don't have any ongoing maintenance cost.   

In the winter in the northern hemisphere off grid homes need energy the most,  tracking is pointless, since the total useful range in azimuth is so small.



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on March 20, 2017, 08:51:23 AM
Wow.  A 10 KW system that tracks.  That's around 40 panels isn't it?  Can you get any photos?

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on March 20, 2017, 03:36:49 PM
Wow.  A 10 KW system that tracks.  That's around 40 panels isn't it?  Can you get any photos?

Casey

I suppose, dozens of the buggers around here getting paid 80.2 cents per Kwh while hydro electric can generate at 5 cents but is spilling water past the turbines due to production surplus. Makes Ontario  power the most expensive in North America .
  I'll post a few images one of these days .
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on March 20, 2017, 04:46:48 PM
Well if I were one of the buggers I'd call myself a very luck bugger.  They have a similar program here in Washington state, USA but it's coming to an end in 2020. 

Don't you worry big oil will raise her pretty head pretty soon.  Too bad they're sloshing water rather than reducing fossil fuel consumption.

I'm still hoping to see a 10 KW array that moves.

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on March 21, 2017, 07:06:52 PM
Burning natural gas for 17cents instead or using hydro electric for 5-6 cents
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on March 22, 2017, 11:15:45 AM
Panel angle depends on your latitude, and you would normally optimize panel angle for the sun angle at your month with the greatest heating degree days.
Close counts.  If you are using polycarbonate glazing, you should also be trying to minimize stagnation time through the summer........

For my PV array, I set it for the optimum winter angle, to reduce the generator run time and enhance self-cleaning via rain, summer, worse angle, but much better weather and more hours to recharge the batteries.
 
For my rooftop water heater, I was stuck with the angle of the roof, good for summer, nearly useless in winter, it reflects instead of harvests.  But in winter the Masonry Heater has a hydronic coil and preheats my water in a 80 gal tank in a 2nd floor closet.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 22, 2017, 04:00:38 AM
I'll try and get some pictures of my tilt rack design for my neighbors soon, Glort.  Possibly tomorrow if my leg is better.

I'm in AZ so steel racks hold up just fine here.  We just bolt the angle iron frame directly to the PV panel aluminum channel. I laugh when I see the prices for store bought mounting racks and hardware. 

We are in a very remote, rural area so we are concerned about function, not appearance.  Your area is very different.  We have no "councils" meeting unless the natives are angry ;).   Seriously, the Apaches are to the south, Zuni to the East, Navajo to the north just past the Petrified Forest, Hopi NE.  My land has much worked stone from the Pueblo related people who lived here 1000 years ago and is covered by both marine fossils and softball to basketball sized volcanic rocks as well as some large petrified logs.



 
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Samo on October 22, 2017, 04:42:57 AM
Nice laboratory Glort very smart use of waste reflected sun to help dry the clothes :D  I think the only thing you're missing is a treadmill generator for your Border-collie...  if it's anything like mine she'd power your whole suburb :D

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 22, 2017, 09:24:21 PM
Here's my neighbor's racks; each as 3 panels (5 for 120V and one 12V which powers his engine room/120VDC power controller/wireless phone and internet.  They are partially cantilevered and one man can easily change the tilt supports, which are 3/4" EMT with smashed flat ends.   The uprights are 3"x3 x3/16 angle.  Each rack is 10 feet long. I split these to make them easier to tilt as the total length is 20 feet.  There is no visible movement or flexing with gusts of 100 MPH.  The panels go all the way to vertical and fully horizontal.  My neighbor and I both do just 2 tilts- one for the summer months and one for winter.  Our priority is for winter gain, we have excess power all other months.

On the next iteration we will go a bit over 16 foot in length for a single 5 PV panel rack with 3 vertical supports, probably 3" round pipe instead of angle depending on steel prices.  I will raise these vertical posts about 6 inches and put the pivot point just above the center of the panel.  The steel above the panel will continue to make it somewhat underbalanced.  We'd like it to be a one man job to tilt the single 5 panel rack. The seasonal angle support vertical posts will be only 12" above ground and perhaps 2x2x1/8 angle.

We need to keep the bottom edge of the panels about 1 foot above ground in winter mode due to snow. It is extremely rare that we would have that much standing snow in winter.

If you look at the commercial rack$, you will quickly see why it makes more sense to have your own custom racks welded up from a local steel source.








Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 22, 2017, 09:43:47 PM
Here's my original racks which are a two man job to tilt. When they were built 10 years ago my local steel supplier built them for $150 for steel and welding.  These are smaller 175 watt panels-  in larger panels it would take 3 men.  Thus the change to the split cantilevered design.

My next solar project will be to add an additional 1200-1500 watts of PV. This will provide additional power for my 120VDC inverter for well pumping and washing machine is a 5 panel rack with just 3 supports, and even better balanced.  The inverter will only be used on sunny days (plenty of those here in AZ), as we want to keep our bargain battery banks lightly discharged. The 10 - 110AH  Walmart Marine batteries cost about $1000 to replace, and are lasting  4.5 years. This is a minimalist 120VDC off grid system but it has served me and now my neighbor and our special disability needs very well.

 


Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 23, 2017, 01:06:26 AM
 I also was surprised at fairly good performance of PV on partly cloudy days.  So good, in fact that I abandoned my plans for a DIY windmill.  PV is easier and cheaper.

I have never seen tilting racks on a home's roof.  That certainly adds a serious new twist to the design.  I have 20 acres so ground racks seemed best to me.  I do have a single fixed 12v panel on each on my outbuildings...for those I only make steel brackets.  The largest is on my shop, and powers my one 110ah AGM BATTERY for solar hot water and house heating pumps.  It gets left in winter tilt all year.  That battery lasts more than 8 years. 

Your access to the big fork lift batteries for bargain prices makes them very appealing.  Tesla batteries are presently not competitive for stationary power by my calculations either, even with new wet lead-acid batteries.






Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 23, 2017, 04:33:07 AM
Yep, the ongoing replacement cost of batteries is a serious issue. 

I had to scale back my solar hot water plans after crunching the numbers.  With a super insulated home, my heating costs were too low to allow for a fancier setup.  What I settled on works great, but I didn't get surplus free heat to heat the shop, which would have been nice.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on October 24, 2017, 04:07:03 AM
Having a off grid battery bank is a pain, and actually limits what can be reasonably done with solar. A grid tie setup allows greater possibilities.
For me, I use around 2 KWhrs per day. To have a unstressed battery bank, it needs to be roughly 5 times this amount of storage to keep within a small  20 percent Depth of Discharge to make it last a reasonable time. Mine is 1500 Ah lead acid.  To charge the daily losses/use  takes around 2.5 KW hrs charging . To get this at my location with untracked panels requires around 500 watts of panels,  with around  5 hours of useful sun, easily achieved in summer.  On rainy days I see around 5 to 8 amps, worth having but unable to supply demand. More panels would easily increase this, but also supply way too much current in bright sun, they would throttle back via the controller in a very short time , therefore money not well spent.
Where battery banks really shine is with diesel backup, a few hours of generator time is all thats needed to give power 24/7 on demand via inverters.  It matters not to me whether the power is derived from solar or diesel, both are free energy sources for me, but not having to crank the Lister every single day is nice. Some things actually do work out in our favour, the Lister works harder in winter, just when the extra heating is a bonus for an example..
For anyone interested, and even further off topic, have been when time allows, messing with a charge controller that maximises low light  panel output. The concept I have come up with simply uses the panel/s to charge a largish capacitor to whatever voltage the panel can maintain in low light. A very simple differential comparator circuit monitors the delta, or rate of voltage change across that cap,  and dumps that "package" of energy into the bank when no further voltage increase is detected. The faster the delta, (DvDt) the higher the switching rate of the Mosfets. it is basically a high power relaxation oscillator the frequency of which is a product of volatge change and current.
 This reduces the bright sun performance by around half, but nearly doubles the low light performance, even allowing a few amps in average moonlight. I live in a tropical rain forest, so this kind of performance  I think will give me a better long term result  using solar.... as has been  said, panels are cheap, the limitation is now low solar radiation on shitty days.
A fascinating subject for sure..
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Samo on October 24, 2017, 12:11:09 PM
Glort,

Sounds like 2 steps forward one step backwards but you seem to be making progress  ;D  For my setup I used a serial to Wifi dongle to send the output of my inverter to a computer, it just displayed a line by line update from the inverter, after a while I wrote some software to massage it and send it to a web server, so I had some graphs and history... the Serial to Wifi dongle was called FIREFLY & was pretty powerful with all the options it supports....  took a bit of fiddling to get it configured, but once it was it just worked...

Just an idea if your inverter has a serial port, most of them have some type of port if they don't support BlueTooth.

cheers,
Samo

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on October 24, 2017, 01:52:43 PM
Your observations are similar to mine in that some cloud can actually increase panel output. I put this down to cooler panels being more efficient, and this is what got me into a "cloudy day" controller.
My power usage is low in a domestic sense,  lights, my biggest useage, and my electronic workshop.
The other workshop, where I do light engineering and car/motorbike restoration work runs seperately off the Petter, max 5KVa.
Cooking/water heating via gas/oil and wood burner. I have an old fashioned "safe" to keep food cool, refrigeration not really needed with vege garden and meat on the hoof so to speak. This way of living was common a century ago, and for centuries before that. I see no harm in forgoing coffee makers, heated towel rails and all the other crap you city dwellers deem  indispensable....
Would a Lister actually feel comfortable running a heated towel rail?
Clip a high impedance multimeter to one of your solar panels , and monitor the output voltage under varying light conditions. Low light levels effect current dramatically, but the voltage remains fairly constant and when in darkness it will suddenly drop. No commercial controller is designed to work at these levels.
The idea here is to create what effectively is an impedance converter, where the milliohm battery impedance is matched to the high impedance of a light starved solar array. The capacitor passively does this by charging at the highest possible rate, the peak stored energy then dumped into the bank as a series of high current pulses.This is the electrical equivalent of a ram pump, the battery bank being the equivalent of an air over water collector/pressure tank.
Now, connect a largish capacitor across the same panel, and connect a small load, a flashlight bulb will do. You will get a brief flash as the cap  gives up the stored energy. This is the rudimentary concept of current collection over time.
On cloudy days Its better for me to get 16 hours of 22 amps, than 16 hours of 13 amps, the tradeoff is to  take a peak current hit mid summer, but then  nights are shorter and less lightinng time required. 
Im not sure what differences there are in different brand panel performances in low light, I have a very  old mitsubishi 80 watt panel, and 4 similar no name 100 watt Chinese panels that are new, these are what Im working with. As I said, its an experimental setup right now,, lacking any refinements such as over voltage protection for the bank.... purely a proof of concept . The next phase will be to add a voltage up converter to lessen the static battery bank voltage threshold, the equivalent of seriesing more panels.... here it gets tricky, as circuit complexity increases, so too does phantom current draw.
Right now we have a partial moon surrounded by scuddy clouds, Im seeing around 4 pulses a second, with a  4700mfd cap this is around 2 mJ, which is bugger all..... a few hundred mA at most.
 A dull overcast day, this rapidly increases to 120/200 J, there is a  nonlinear relationship between photons and current (Coulomb',s law)
In  bright sun, Im getting around 250/300 J, around 1/2 - 2/3rds of the max, at this point the panels are effectively tied to the battery voltage with a 80/20 pulse ratio.... the cap cannot charge instantaneously.... hence the loss.  measurement  made more difficult as the cap dis/charge rate is logarithmic, so ball park figures  here.
With solar, there are so many variables.
But, as you are on the natiional grid, non of this has any relevance to you.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 24, 2017, 06:05:52 PM
Some of the mppt controllers are already buck/boost capable- so are capable of doing what Starfire is experimenting with via simpler means.  The losses of running the buck/boost converter will exceed the output for dark/rainy days or moonlit nights.  A tropical rain forest is certainly a climate that would be well suited to a buck/boost mppt charge controller or it's functional equivalent and I applaud his experimentation.

For my high desert climate mppt is unnecessary with my 120vdc system; charging is quite good at low light levels.  With panel costs where they are today,  mppt for most climates is a marketing ploy; as Glort suggests, in almost all cases you are better off putting the money in panels than electronics to try and squeeze the last 20% of power on a semi-dark cloudy day.

In my case, since ultra clean DC was the goal, I used simple analog throttling of PV power via low-side bipolar power transistors.  Today, that design approach is still viable for a higher voltage design.  I used 350V  automotive ignition Darlingtons with a current sensing resistor for each and micropower op amp for each (one is the master and 3 others just match it's current to keep the load spread evenly between the 4 big T0-247 transistors),  but I would now I would likely use the latest linear rated high voltage power Mosfets instead. (They did not exist 12 years ago.)  Regulating the PV on the low side (below the 0v battery connection, with the +PV tied directly to battery +120VDC) keeps my maximum DC voltage to earth less than 148 V; which better than 3x safer than 120VAC.   I would seriously consider high side regulation today, with a maximum of 220VDC, since so many server farms are now running 350 VDC.  Having been zapped by 120VDC many times over the last dozen years, I also have a better appreciation for relative DC safety; it hurts a whole lot less...more like a static shock. For the same RMS voltage, it takes 4x the current to kill you with DC.

I will have to consider my options for increasing the power handling capacity of my series regulator as I add more PV power for my daytime inverter operations. I can just add additional modules in parallel with minor mods or revise the design.  Either way I'll have to add a battery charge current limit since my new PV arrays will be able to exceed my battery charge rate. 

I am amazed that wet lead batteries are STILL best bang for the buck in 2017.  I viewed my original development  as something interim until the new battery technology breakthrough arrived.  A also thought AGM batteries with their higher charge rate and efficiency would have completely eliminated wet lead long ago- but they have not, and their cost remains too high to justify for my system, though it was designed for them, with 10 individual battery shunt regulators. Because of the individual analog battery shunt regulators, I only do mini-equalizations for 3 hours every 2 weeks, and only have to add water every two years. (I do check them annually.) So treating wet lead batteries as if they were AGMs does have advantages.
 
My night time power consumption in winter is about 1.5 KWH.  Lighting and computer/projector use are my night loads. 
My daytime loads include computer plus low wattage electric cooking (300w rice cooker, crock pot, immersion heater, 500W hot plate), but only on sunny days (the norm here).  My refrigerator/freezer is propane which dramatically reduces the load on my batteries (and thus my ongoing battery replacement cost of $220/yr) and I do enjoy the soundless operation.  The "waste" heat does heat the separate gas kitchen in the winter, as does the "waste" heat of my incandescent bulbs for lighting in winter.

My 6/1 CS provides the big loads- AC for pumping water to my 2000 gallon tank (gravity feed), washing machine, and compressed air for my all my woodshop tools.  This runs about $15- $25 a month of diesel depending on what I'm doing in the shop.  My new inverter should be able to take over most of this, as it can run a 2 hp compressor to keep the 500 gallon tank topped up, so the CS would only be used when maximum air is needed (sanders, ripping on table saw, and my air string trimmer for the yard around the house). 





Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on October 24, 2017, 09:12:57 PM
... The calculator shows that to raise 250L of water (as is the size of my service) 30oC I will need about 9 Kwh of power. To raise it 20oC will need about 6...

Just a thought, as this thread is already as far off topic for an engine forum as it's ever likely to be  :o have you considered water solar panels for water (pre-)heating? Rather than convert the sun to electrickery (at ~25% efficiency at best), then convert it back to heat in an urn or other water heater - why not just run the water through a bunch of copper pipe inside of a wooden box (IIRC you paint the inside black) with a glass lid. As with solar PV, you still get heat even on cloudy days (but not at night as with Starfire's system!). Even if the water only picks up 5-10 degrees on its way through the system, that's 5-10 degrees you don't need to find electricity for...

Biggest issue, as I understand it, with direct-to-heat solar panels is boiling them (or "saturating" them as I believe it's called - presumably because something somewhere bursts under the pressure and saturates everything around it ;D), which can be avoided either by dumping the water out of the system before it boils, or having a large heat-sink which can cope with shedding the heat generated in the solar loop. Another problem, which would certainly affect much of the USA and the UK (and Europe) is, of course, freezing - but standard auto anti-freeze can be used if the water circulates through a heat exchanger rather than heating drinking/bathing/etc. water directly.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 24, 2017, 10:11:25 PM
The cost of PV has gotten so low, while copper/ plumbing costs remain so high that many people are going Glort's route and just using PV with their electric resistive water heaters. Especially when bargain used PV panels and DIY setup can be done.  Purchased solar water hot water panels have not seen the volume and price reductions of PV.

The picture changes when there is a bigger hot water need that can be met, climate-wise, with 85% efficiency direct solar water heating.

I built my own hot water heating flat panels and my own EPDM lined 800 gallon insulated storage tank (mostly below grade to allow for a simple, low cost single tank drain back system), and my own copper heat exchanger in the tank for domestic HW.  Heating is direct from the tank to avoid the cost/complexity of another heat exchanger.  This handles my home heating plus domestic HW all year round.  I never use cold water for laundry, now. This made sense because of being able to do my superinsulated radiant floor home heating.  I felt the extra expense and my labor were well invested now, while I was still able to do much of the labor myself, to improve my financial situation post post age 65.

Carlb has posted pictures before of his nice solar hot water setup for just domestic HW, with both DIY flat panel and reflector collectors.  The solar wand heat exchanger made by Bulter systems makes for a simple add on to an existing electric or gas hot water heater.  I am now a fan of the 1/16 inch polycarbonate for glazing- the 4x8 foot sheets can be rolled for cheap shipping, and it will tolerate stagnation temperatures.  There's no question that PV to electric heating is much simpler to plumb, and has no leaks. :)






Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on October 24, 2017, 10:56:55 PM
BruceM, thanks for your comments....the phantom current from commercially built controllers is way too high for what I need. PV panels, like a hydro setup are  insidious in that power is available over time, even a few amps over a 24 hour period amounts to a lot of juice. Same goes for phantom drain, it adds up rapidly.
Digital Mppt controllers by design can never quite settle on a peak, will always be slightly above or below depending on the algorithm used , and theres quite a few active parts in the design, whereas the thing Im playing with uses a LM311 low power comparator driving a BJT switching stage, all less than a 4mA current draw. Because its already oscillating in use, the boost section can be nothing more than an inductor/diode on the series pass transistor, and  can be a largely passive design also.
I too use bipolar.... its not often realised the turn on resistance of a BJT can be even lower than a Mosfet, despite the intrinsic  voltage drop across it is  higher. They are also far more robust.
Im just messing with solar to see what is possible, all info I have seen concentrates more on peak outputs in bright sun.... here we have many many more overcast days over time.
Flooded wet acid still rule..... over the decades have tried many types. Gell cells died very quickly, gas pockets depriving the plates of electrolyte, either through localised gassing or heat.  A very large NiCad bank developed strange and random problems after just a few years of use. The most interesting was some genuine 110 year old Edison NiFe batteries I picked up from an abandoned coal mine.
These I simply filled with a caustic soda solution, all guesswork, and they appeared totake a charge no problems. Not very friendly to use for powering electronic s though. To charge at even a low rate saw the voltage increase from a nominal 12 volt bank to 17/18 volts, and a reasonable load saw 10 volts across the same bank, indicating high internal resistance. Have since found out this is normal... similar cells are made in China today.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 24, 2017, 11:16:34 PM
Looking forward to reading about your work on the small system, low-light charge controller as it progresses, Starfire. 

Take a look at the newer MOSFETs with a full SOA specification for linear operation.  Fairchild and IXYS both make some beauties, as do others.  While a bit spendy, they  can be very useful when you want low voltage drop when in full on mode than you can achieve with bipolars.  I use one for my linear 12V PV charge controller design.  Something like an LM10 for control (100 uA)...

But then I'm an analog fiend, and you're likely going to end up with a pure switch type design.



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on October 25, 2017, 12:46:41 AM
Many years ago, , worked on a small farm. The living quarters had no power, and it took hours to heat the water via the wetback., a real pain after a days hard work.
 A 100 meter coil of 3/4 ubiquitous black  alkathene pipe thrown on the roof would net a 44 gallon oil drum of near boiling water on even a medium sunny day thermo syphoned into  the drum on the peak. The good thing with hot water, it contains little oxygen, therefore steel drums dont rust, instead growing a protective layer of heat tolerant scum and slime.
Dont overthink this stuff.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on October 25, 2017, 01:22:52 AM
Lead acid  funnily enough are almost 100 percent recyclable, the cases, the acid, and the lead, even though the greenies would have you believe they are an environmental hazard. They are worth too much as scrap to end up in a landfill, unlike  zinc carbon and Nicad/Lithium etc that largely do pollute, ending up in the waste basket.
Lead is reused, over and over. where the more esoteric types require rare earths that are in limited supply. Lead acids are big and inelegant, but no problem in stationary off grid situations.  Despite being  the most studied and understood of all battery technologies. they seem to defy any attempt at "improving" them.
The "Y2K" lot of lighthouse batteries I bought in year 2000, I doubled my money  17 years later in scrap value. Looking from a financial prospective, they supplied 17 years free storage, and then gave a healthy profit.... I hope my new  220ah crown batteries do similarly..
Little known byproduct in old used batteries..... dueterium, ie, heavy water.
This stuff is used as a moderator to slow nuetrons in nuclear reactors, and is the fuel  for hydrogen bombs.
. Its produced over time when water is continually electrolysed  into oxygen and hydrogen...  as in batteries...rather like an enrichment centrifuge....
Now, where did I put that block of uranium??? Need a deterrent in case the mericans take an interest.....
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: 32 coupe on October 25, 2017, 01:56:41 AM

Check "virgin lead" batterys.
Expensive, but they are the ticket.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 25, 2017, 02:08:39 AM
I couldn't find a meaningful technical report showing that virgin batteries performance are enough better to offset the doubled price.  How about a link, 32 coupe?

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on October 25, 2017, 02:21:35 AM
Me too. One site reckons 400 cycles at 80 percent DOD, thats  only a little better than a top quality thick plate standard type.
Has anyone had experience with these?

https://www.hiteksolar.co.nz/blogs/news/106430214-why-should-i-consider-using-lead-carbon-batteries
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: 32 coupe on October 25, 2017, 02:45:24 AM
I don't remember the sites.
I did a lot of research a few years ago.
As some of you know I work on large private
yachts and deal with batterys up to an including
4d and 8d size.
Battetys today won't last for more than 2 to 3 years.
I haven't had a car battery last for more than 3 years
here. I don't buy cheap batterys. The jell cell batterys
don't seem much better. I am in Florida and heat kills them.

All batterys today are made with recycled lead and from what
I understand it is the impurities that causes the early death.

Batterys used to last years, as many as 10. Not today.

The virgin lead batterys are used in commercial critical backup
systems. They are made in the USA by 1 or 2 companies.

Expensive, heavy.

I have a few in the field but it's too soon for me to give an
honest assessment yet, but time wil tell.


Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 25, 2017, 07:22:53 AM
Lead acid battery life is seriously shortened in high temperatures, and even more so by charge controllers that aren't battery temperature compensated.  At high temps the battery charge voltages must be lower or positive plates get eaten up. So it's the double whammy if you have both fixed voltage charging and high temps.  Phoenix, AZ has the same problem with very short battery life in cars, due to fixed voltage alternator regulators are the problem there along with seriously elevated temps. The newer cars with always on electronics cam also be battery eaters.

I read that the big name battery companies such as Johnson Controls monitor their lead very carefully.  For positive plates they don't usually use recycled lead because of the antimony.  These are not fly by night companies; they assay their metals.

Modern equipped boats are more likely to destroy batteries than in days past because of the increased electronics power load, and continuous phantom loads from inverter and/or DC-DC converters. Lead acid battery life is also quite limited based on DOD (depth of discharge) or when left slowly discharging for days or weeks, which causes sulfation, loss of capacity and eventually shorted cells.

There may be something to the virgin lead thing-  but I'm especially skeptical of only marketing information with no independent engineering test data.





Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on October 25, 2017, 07:58:57 AM
According to my battery bible,   3rd  edition 1940 written by a George Wood Vinal,  a physicist for the National institute of Standards in th US, the only main problem mentioned with lead impurity leads to "local action" causing faster self discharge.  The actual battery function remains  unaltered. Many "impurities" have been tried over time to enhance certain qualities, especially adhesion to the supporting grids, but the main technical advances have been to  ease and streamline  manufacture.
So, I would think that "virgin lead" is more an advertising ploy rather than a real advance, perusing  battery sites does uncover some rather suspect claims here and there. Battery additive snake oil is still alive and well, despite being firmly debunked in this same book  nearly 80 years ago.
These lead carbon batteries sound interesting.....
heres the link again..... if anyone has knowlege of these....

https://www.hiteksolar.co.nz/products/6v-300ah-lead-carbon-supercapacitor-lcs-pb-c-battery-latest-technology

1500 cycles at 100% Discharge capacity
2400 cycles at 80% Discharge capacity
3000 cycles at 60% Discharge capacity
3600 cycles at 50% Discharge capacity



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on October 25, 2017, 08:22:51 AM
Ade FWIW up at my partially-developed, definitely very off-grid property in what is arguably New Zealand's sunniest province I have a "solar shower"

It comprises 50 metres of 20mm black "alkathene" (low density farm water supply piping) wound in a big flat one-layer-thick spiral on a wooden frame covered with a sheet of heavy black plastic 10mm thick that I scavenged off the base of a feed wagon

(sorry I don't have a photo)

Frame is 1600mm X 1400mm and the spiral covers maybe 70% of it.

It's propped up on a stick vaguely north-facing and roughly 15 degrees off vertical

Water from my spring up the hill comes in one end at about 2 bar and the other end uns under the house and is attached to my shower inside

When it has been exposed to direct sunshine for maybe 15 minutes the water is bloody hot - hot enough that you have to add cold water to it at the mixer to have a shower.  There's enough hot water there for a good shower as well as time to wash your hair and a bit of standing-around-wasting-hot-water time as well

It's inefficient in that there is no storage, and in that you need to think about having a shower when the sun shines.  I don't care about those things cos I'm only there for three or four days at a time every few weeks and I have a wetback on the wood-stove anyway.

But it's such a low-tech, low-cost item ($100 for the pipe) and it will produce enough hot water for three or four showers an hour (if you had a queue of grimy folks) that I thought I would mention it.  It has absolutely no moving parts at all unless you count the mixer at the shower

It's the sort of thing that demonstrates how even the crudest "direct" harnessing of the power of the sunshine has so much free energy to give

I once made a more high-tech one with a clear plastic covering and insulation etc - but I made the mistake of leaving it out in the sun with no water in it one day and the "alkathene" promptly melted.  The crude one I now use is so close to idiot-proof as makes no difference

Cheers
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Samo on October 25, 2017, 09:46:29 AM
Very interesting to read of the setups and opinions...

In my system I have an 86F cap across each battery, while I'm only using 4 x 200Ah batteries, they "should" be taking the brunt of the surge current (washing machine start up etc), being lower internal resistance. Though I've not tried to prove that claim (no time). Each one cost as much as a battery but they do add to the overall current capacity of the system and I'm confident will help extend the life of my AGM batteries. As long as I keep the DOD low, they will give many years of service yet (4 years so far)...

The other technology I'd like to try is the Edison - Nickel Iron battery, no doubt there's some wild claims out there, however the original Edison batteries were very long lived, and while not as efficient or easy to maintain as AGM, an interesting potential option that I'd like to explore non the less...

Samo
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on October 25, 2017, 10:57:07 AM
Well Glort, me old cobber, you will get a buzz out of this.
It seems these "ultra" batteries linked to  above are an AUSTRALIAN invention.
Bugger me.
And it looks like they are a good thing.... a vastly improved lead acid, same energy density but can withstand far greater DoD without  damage..
Interesting watch for those interested.,, the interweb is wonderful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1jusadHkmM
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on October 25, 2017, 11:57:39 AM
Ummm, us Kiwis are selling them already..... Something else for the Ozzys to get pissy about and insult the Kiwis over!  :)

https://www.hiteksolar.co.nz/blogs/news/106430214-why-should-i-consider-using-lead-carbon-batteries
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Samo on October 25, 2017, 12:11:17 PM
Narada sell them here  (oz) too, and for some commentary...

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2607369

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 25, 2017, 05:16:52 PM
The lead -carbon battery was tested by Sandia before 2009.  Note that this is only 10% DOD so not the full story. 
http://www.altdotenergy.com/2009/01/could-lead-carbon-batteries-be-energy-storage-game-changer/

I also found full reports from Sandia.  They did extensive testing of 3-4% carbon added to the negative plate of VRLA (AGM) type batteries and the results were impressive.  They don't sulfate when partially cycled repeatedly, with no "full up" periods to equalize cells.  So carbon doped negative plates in AGM type batteries are the real deal.

It is suspicious that this hasn't progressed further given this rather impressive independent testing. But it is also suspicious that AGM battery prices have continued to be set at more than double that of wet lead given the reduced lead needed for the same capacity. 



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on October 25, 2017, 06:56:38 PM
Mr. Starfire,

I get it.

I've popped for two AGM batteries in my life.  Both lasted a good strong 10+ years.  They still penciled out on the high side but it was fun pulling that length of life out of a battery.

Casey
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on October 25, 2017, 09:44:19 PM
But it is also suspicious that AGM battery prices have continued to be set at more than double that of wet lead given the reduced lead needed for the same capacity. 

Bruce, i suspect battery pricing has nothing to do with manufacturing cost, but Watt hours capacity.... watt they can get away with consumers.
Here is a lead carbon for sale here in NZ

https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/caravans-motorhomes/parts-accessories/batteries-inverters/auction-1448246050.htm


thats 120 ah 12 volt at $960nz  This price seems excessive for a little added carbon when a normal 115ah 12 volt from the same retail outlet is $305..... or 1/3rd the price

https://www.trademe.co.nz/business-farming-industry/industrial/generators-power-supply/solar/auction-1448245446.htm

The first is rated at the full 120 ah at 100 percent DOD whereas the second is usually expected to supply whatever at around  30 percent DoD normally.

I cannot figure out the chemistry of these, carbon is inert, im thinking its presence is more mechanical, the carbon disrupting and preventing sulphate crystals to  form/link in the negative plates, thereby keeping them in solution.
The supercapacitor reference I think is rubbish.

on a related note....

I have over time, as most of us have, tried the battery revitalisation thing.
I have had good success with this
Short out the faulty battery for several days.
Connect it BACKWARDS to a cheap old school non intelligent charger.
Charge it for a few days at low current, a few amps is fine.
Short the battery again, then charge normally with correct polarity.

The idea of this, sulphation can only occur on the negative plates, reversing polarity causes the sulphates to either dissolve, or drop to the bottom.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on October 27, 2017, 07:19:00 AM
2 topics here

a) don't use poisonous automotive anti-freeze with a domestic water system, if you get a pinhole leak in the heat-ex ......

b) I have been running a large NiFe bank since about 2011 (48v, 800ah, daily cycling about 11Kwh) and will look up the proper KoH /  H2O  mix ratio.  It should improve the voltage fluctuation you see, but NiFe does have a much wider working voltage range than lead-acid

 Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Samo on October 27, 2017, 07:41:53 AM
Ok Mike,

You have my full attention on this one. I've currently use AGM, but from all the research to date NiFe is the technology I'm keen on. You've had some time with them, and I'd be very interested in your real world appraisal:

Maintenance
Charge/Use cycles
Efficiency
DOD - how far down do you run them?
How easy to live with, what's the up/down of it?

cheers,
Samo
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 27, 2017, 04:58:26 PM
Hi Mike,  I remember you were initially having some trouble with your charge controller not being able to fully charge the NiFe bank due to the higher voltages needed.  But I guess since NiFe don't really care about that, not suffering from sulfation, it matters little.  I'm also looking forward to your first hand assessment of NiFe.

I like your simple solution for the well pump. I've got the same pump with about 200 feet of head to my gravity feed tank on the hill.  I've getting ready to add some PV and some sort of timer/sun sensor for topping off the tank daily via my new inverter also; I can reprogram my battery bank controller to add some new logic like-  if noon and batteries fully charged, and sun level good...pump water unless batteries come out of float.  Do you have any sun level sensing to keep the pump off on a dark day or do you do that manually?


Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on October 27, 2017, 05:26:35 PM
NiFe info
my install:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.209715335768594.51674.120212794718849&type=1&l=9747e4dde6

> Maintenance
  lots, every 2 weeks, I add 5 or 6 gallons distilled, 20 gall was too much to do at a time, so I'd shifted the cycles around so I'm only doing a quarter of the bank at any 1 time.

> Charge/Use cycles
 ?? I charge and use them

> Efficiency
  about 60%, that's why they use so much water.

> DOD - how far down do you run them?
 the bank is 40,800 watt hours, (51v [42 cells] * 800Ah). My running voltage at sunrise is about 52v in summer, and 49v winter (longer nights) I figure my nightime consumption runs about 5Kwh. I sized to properly allow for their high internal resistance, and to supply starting surge for deep well pump, so I generally have low voltage droop.  I charge below recommended voltage, because that would fry my inverter.


> How easy to live with, what's the up/down of it?
easy to live with, no winter worries about sulfation, they don't care about partial charge. Edison original pocket construction was quite robust, 100+ year life on calls, but only 5 years on electrolyte. I'm going to have to dump & refill (nasty, messy process) my cells this summer.
my cells came from China
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on October 27, 2017, 05:29:30 PM
Bruce - I use a common Intermatic timer for 11am-4pm run window, and manually switch off in poor sun.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 27, 2017, 06:29:50 PM
Thanks Mike. Your report is most interesting.  The water use is a real eye opener.  Adding 5-6 gallons of distilled water to all the cells every 2 weeks is a show stopper for me.  Is this due to overcharging and thus avoidable with a NiFE smart controller? What does bubble production vs voltage and charge current over time look like?  If they only start really bubbling when fully charged-  charge detection seems the answer.   

Or perhaps there is an automatic waterer available?



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on October 27, 2017, 06:46:00 PM
Quote
Adding 5-6 gallons of distilled water to all the cells every 2 weeks is a show stopper for me.
  Me too.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Tom on October 27, 2017, 07:37:47 PM
My FLA bats, now 10 years old, regularly use 5-6 gal per month. This is a 48v 1055 ah bank of 4 Hawker PV1 batteries. So Mikes water usage is not to far out of line. I made a setup with a 5 gal cooler bottle and 5/16 vinyl hose to water the batts that works very well.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 27, 2017, 08:25:49 PM
I'm feeling better and better about my own small scale DIY 120V system.  I check water in a few batteries annually, add about 1 gallon every other year.  I started with every couple months and just kept extending the period. My neighbor has an improved version of my individual battery regulators and we've gradually increased his temperature compensated float voltage slightly per battery over the last year to reduce variation in specific density between cells.  His (10) battery shunt regulators allow trim pot adjustment of temp compensated battery float, bulk, and equalization voltage levels.  He has even less need for mini-equalization charging now and is down to once a month, and still dropping, no noticeable water use.  He's also using 10 group 29 marine batteries from Johnson Controls (Walmart), at $89 each.  I will be updating my hardware to the new version this winter, knock on wood. 

For wet lead acid some of that water adding is the fault of bad charge/charge controller design,  because of the lack of individual cell (or smaller groups of cells) management.  I designed for AGM, for which you have to be much more careful, as water can't be added(!), so overcharging is not operationally acceptable.

The larger capacity deep cycle wet lead batteries may also NEED high charge rates and some bubbling according to some of the literature I've read on forklift type batteries.




Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 27, 2017, 10:51:39 PM
I did find lots of nice battery watering systems that could be fully automated.  Fillwatch seems like a nice one, though spendy.  Trojan makes them also.  Freezing of residual water in the tubes above the battery is something that they did not seem to address at all; and would be problematic for me. I don't heat my outdoor vented battery cabinet.

Back to holding my breath for that big battery breakthrough.  If I was a serious survivalist,  NiFe would be more interesting due to extremely long life.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 28, 2017, 12:44:24 AM
Not water vapor; it's hydrogen and oxygen from electrolysis.  The battery boxes must be vented to minimize explosion risk.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on October 28, 2017, 01:46:44 AM
Hi Bruce

I'm interested in your thinking on this

My last solar setup I basically had panels, fairly cheap deep-cycle batteries, a controller, an inverter and a voltmeter as a "fuel gauge"

I need to build another in a few years when I "retire", and my thinking was that panels, AGMs and one of the smart inverter/controllers that will accept DC and AC inputs, would be a good balance between not too high-tech and not too basic.  It would allow me to use the Lister with the ST head and the DC alternators to contribute 230VAC when I had a "big load" day, or 24VDC to charge batteries when there had been a few low-sunlight days.

Although the beautiful, industrial, heavy-duty batteries such as the Telecon 2V units appeal, I thought the low-maintenance AGMs might be an OK compromise . . . .

Has it been your experience that the extra work of hygrometers, electrolyte, top-ups etc etc is justified?

I'd be interested in your thoughts

Thanks, Mike
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Samo on October 28, 2017, 03:32:51 AM
Quote
NiFe info
my install:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.209715335768594.51674.120212794718849&type=1&l=9747e4dde6

> Maintenance
  lots, every 2 weeks, I add 5 or 6 gallons distilled, 20 gall was too much to do at a time, so I'd shifted the cycles around so I'm only doing a quarter of the bank at any 1 time.

> Charge/Use cycles
 ?? I charge and use them

> Efficiency
  about 60%, that's why they use so much water.

> DOD - how far down do you run them?
 the bank is 40,800 watt hours, (51v [42 cells] * 800Ah). My running voltage at sunrise is about 52v in summer, and 49v winter (longer nights) I figure my nightime consumption runs about 5Kwh. I sized to properly allow for their high internal resistance, and to supply starting surge for deep well pump, so I generally have low voltage droop.  I charge below recommended voltage, because that would fry my inverter.

Thanks for that detail Mike. Like others I was surprised at the water use. I've read they use some but that puts it into perspective. I read about them a bit and it's hard sorting out the truth from the various claims.

cheers,
Samo
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 28, 2017, 04:16:31 AM
Mikenash-
I do use a single 12V AGM battery for my home/shop 12V power; it runs my circ pumps, and is used for control for computers, power, Controllers and such.  For that it makes sense because it allowed me to eliminate a vented battery box in the shop an the winter thermal cost of doing one as well.  The higher charge efficiency and relatively long life for this application (8 years+) make it worthwhile.  I much prefer AGM batteries; I just don't want to pay the premium extra $/month replacement cost.  If they were 1.5 times the cost wet marine batteries, I'd already be using them.

I'd wait to make a decision until you are closer to the time...see what makes sen$e then. For anyone with any family members with neurological, autoimmune or endocrine problems at all, I would suggest reading up about what is being called "dirty power" (the terminology and much of what is written makes me shudder at the technical inaccuracies) and realize that a typical inverter system today has absolutely horrible high frequency emissions radiating from all the connected wiring. This is easily confirmed via AM radio with a non-noise suppression tuner like the old Radio Shack 12-467.

A better plan, health and cost wise, is to get the inverter, panels, and batteries out of the home in an outbuilding, and filter the heck out of the AC power going to the home, which should be in metal conduit after the filter. This saves a great deal of expensive additional expensive shielding of the inverter, filtering the DC from the PV system, etc. and if planned into a multi-use outbuilding, adds no cost.  The trick is to avoid filters that are a high reactive load due to capacitance, either line to line or line to ground, as reactive loads are the same as real loads to most inverter designs; they eat your battery power 24/7. If nothing else, at least use one of the commercial two stage common mode filters by Schaefer or others. (Very low capacitance.)  Who knows, by then, some of the companies my offer a low EMI choice as an option.

Designing in low emissions by the original designer is the way to get the best possible performance at the lowest cost. Today, the public and marketing dweebs only know cost and capacity or some other fancy features; EMI isn't part of public awareness.  When I talked to Magnum power about filtering their product, their engineers knew just where the emissions where in frequency, and how to best tackle it.  Alas, for cost/marketing competitiveness reasons they can't design it in to the design, or even as an add on.  Admitting that these products might be a health risk is something none of them want to go anywhere near.

Generally my thoughts are that parallel batteries are a big mistake, that individual battery regulators ala AGM car battery designs (see manzanitamicro.com - one of the early AGM electric car supporters) are the best way to allow longer serial strings without problems or endless watering issues. I much prefer higher voltages, and find 120VDC very, very handy.  In commercial gear I would avoid less than 48V unless it was for a bargain cabin of very, very low power use.  The lower voltage systems lose a lot of power in voltage drop to the inverter inputs, and in PV wiring, etc.  This is why virtually all new systems have gone to high voltage PV arrays (many greater than 120VDC).  They are still shackled by 48V on the battery side because of the industry influenced decision to allow non-electricians (certified PV installers) to wire up lower voltages.  A technical blunder which will be overtaken, eventually. 

But then some amazing blunders made in around 1920, like the non-transformer isolated  grounding practice of the Wye
power distribution system have continued for nearly 100 years.  Humans tend to cling to our well established blunders.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on October 28, 2017, 05:56:53 AM
bear with my crippled left hand hunt & peck, just got a new shoulder on right side last week
https://www.ucsfhealth.org/treatments/shoulder_replacement/

 water usage in 5-6 gal, every 2 weeks, in about 10 cells.  If i'd waited till they all needed water, it'd take close to 20 gal at a time.   E to F is about half a gallon in a cell
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on October 28, 2017, 06:55:52 AM
Fascinating thoughts Bruce.  Thanks for taking the time to put all that down "on paper"

I hadn't considered emissions/health - something to think about

Cheers
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: dieselspanner on October 28, 2017, 07:16:29 AM
Hi Mike
Just out of interest, where do you get the distilled water from, and a what cost?

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on October 28, 2017, 08:24:20 AM
One of my many income streams is the repair of radio and electronic equipment, and any interferrence from my mains supply would render my workshop useless.. To get an "RF quiet" inverter is difficult, as the EMI filtering is the very first thing left out as a design cost cutting measure. It cannot be added retrospectively.
Most inverters use the "high frequency" approach, where the low voltage DC is chopped at a high frequency to AC, rectified to high voltage DC, then chopped again at 50/60 cycles into  some pretence of an AC  sine wave.
These are cheaper to manufacture and have a fairly small footprint, the high frequencies mean smaller transformers.
The better type are called "low frequency "inverters, where the initial voltage step up is done at the same frequency as the mains output. These are very much quieter, and use less components as everything is done in one conversion stage, but these require large transformers, lots of copper, lots of iron, therefore more expensive..... but very reliable,  the low frequencies minimise commutating losses , less stress in the semiconductors. These are the RFI friendly ones.
Chopping DC using square waves  to do a voltage conversion  creates harmonics.
50/60 Hz harmonics are unlikely to cause issues above the 4th/5th, or a few hundred Hz at low to medium power levels.
High Frequency chopper harmonics extend well into the HF bands, and the house wiring acts as a very efficient radiator/aerial/antenna, transmitting RFI and hash.for many hundreds of meters. 
i have had a good run  with  the Australian SELECTRONIC brand, my two are  low frequency types . are over 20 years old and have  never failed despite running 24/7.  This company still appears to be  in business, but unsure of what design the later offerings use, but there is bound to be other manufacturers using this approach.
To increase reliability with the generic Chinese cheapies, my advice is to divide the building into many self contained circuits, and use a multitude of smaller inverters to run each section independently. Small inverters are cheaper to buy, they tend to die with dignity, generally they just stop working , rather than dramatically catching fire as the bigger ones do, and they will never all fail at once.
But, your gunna be stuck with the RFI problem using these..
Buying expensive inverter equipment is rather like buying expensive power tools, its a great thing at the time, but years down the track, they have become a discontinued model, and either parts are unavailable, Hitachi are very good at this, or the manufacturer has gone out of business.
The smaller Chinese inverters, 300 watts or so will run lights and small appliances well, and will generally last 2/3 years. They hate inductive loads, this is what kills them, voltage spikes caused by poor regulation. The lF types with their big transformers soak up these spikes by virtue of the high inductance between the load and the semiconductors.
Of course, large professional stuff costing megabucks and needing its own building and full time maintenance team is another story entirely.
Im just a little fish.
Our engines may last 100 years, but sadly nothing else we can afford / need will.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on October 28, 2017, 12:03:29 PM
And another idea. With the vast amounts of Oxygen and Hydrogen  generated by these NiFe batteries,
I have it on good authority that this is whats uniquely known as Browns gas, after he invented it just a few years ago, and can be burned in engines and requiring no other fuel. It makes sense then to run gas lines from the top of each battery into the engine air intake and utilise it as fuel.  The faster the charge rate, the more gas will be needed, and the more gas will be produced, an automatic process.... very neat I thought. The condensed steam from the exhaust will be pure distilled water, and could be returned to the batteries after cooling to  create a closed loop cycle, needing no user input.
Why has no-one thought of doing this?
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on October 28, 2017, 12:32:51 PM
I await Glort's rant on perpetual motion machines with some interest  :laugh:
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 28, 2017, 06:03:08 PM
Brown's gas is so highly explosive that any sane gas collection scheme will separate the hydrogen alone and only collect that. Storing hydrogen mixed with even air is just way too volatile and dangerous...no one without a terminal illness and/or death wish would attempt to compress Brown's gas.

You can make hydrogen in a  plastic pail with a tight lid and hose connected with Lye water and aluminum foil; just put the pail in a bigger container of cold water as it's exothermic and will melt the pail otherwise.  Easy on the aluminum.  The first trash bag you fill via the hose will have some air from the pail.  If you light that floating bag with a torch, it will EXPLODE loudly. After that bag, the air is gone and subsequent bags will just go quietly with an almost invisible and barely audible blue whoosh.  This is nothing compared to the volatility of Brown's gas with pure hydrogen and oxygen.

Magnum Energy's off grid inverter is quite popular for cost/performance and claims to be a transformer isolated, low frequency design.  Yet it still blows away the AM band entirely in a home wired with unshielded Romex.  So yes, the low frequency designs can be better, and like the much lauded and long lived Trace SW series, they tend to be more robust and reliable, but there is a lot more involved in good EMC in design that just the topology of the design.  The early German Sunny Boy inverters were reported to be much better for EMI, but they have gone transformerless designs to compete as well.

Remoting a decently reliable inverter, and adding filtration after the fact does reliably work, it's just simpler and cheaper to solve the problem in design. For example I've had both military grade filter companies Genesco in California and RFI Corp in NY develop special high performance filters for home inverter use that use less than 15 watts of power 24/7 due to capacitance.  Both were able to exceed -100 dB of filter performance at 100KHz and above.  They do cost roughly $2500 US, and do not change the directly radiated emissions from the inverter or the attached DC side wiring, so a remote setup is still needed.  For new construction, I also highly recommend all home wiring in EMT (thinwall steel) conduit with compression fittings.  It was and is a technical/public health blunder to have unshielded wiring all around you and then plug in many strong sources of EMI such as switching power supplies, variable speed motor drives, etc.  Just one particularly bad power supply can trash ALL the entire connected wiring. Again, something you can prove to yourself with a $15 AM radio in your own home, on or off grid.










Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on October 28, 2017, 06:05:15 PM
i get R/O, DI water from the water store locally. 50 cents per gallon.   I also test it with a TDS tester, and it's always been ok
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on October 28, 2017, 09:40:48 PM


Humour, Glort.  ("Humor") for our friends Stateside
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 28, 2017, 11:46:37 PM
Ah, I should have realized Starfire's  post regarding Brown's gas was a spoof, a sarcastic poke at free energy,etc.  My apologies, Starfire. 



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on October 29, 2017, 12:17:40 AM
Non needed Bruce....
I have periods where the different cultures and the sense of humour of the different countries interests me.... world wide forums like this one gives access to this multiculturalism very easily. We have a love hate relationship too with our Australian neighbours,   where we take delight in rassing them at any opportunity
I suspect the US would have a similar thing going with Canadians.
We inherited the "dry" and subtle humour of the British, it can easily fall flat on some.
I will try to moderate my poor behaviour in future.......
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: dieselspanner on October 29, 2017, 08:51:17 AM
Well spotted for the actuators, Glort.

Not sure they'd stand continuous use but for altering the angle of pv panels a few times a year they'd be great.

Stef

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 29, 2017, 05:24:57 PM
I concur Glort, for roof mount, fixed is probably best, especially since you have access to bargain, young, used panels and are doing a fairly large capacity PV setup.  Pick an angle that gives you good-enough performance when you can use it most, and acceptable performance the other parts of the year.  Your biggest dilema is planning for the inevitable- the power co. noticing your power bill is too small or mandating digital smart meters.

My off grid neighbor wants to do some small farming/animal raising- which means lots of inverter water pumping here in AZ.  This is the one case where historically sun-tracked panels made sense as it adds hours of power for water pumping; battery storage has too much ongoing cost, still.  With 2017 PV cost, adding panels for afternoon summer sun is probably his best bet since early AM summer sun is blocked by a hill.  If we put a vertical panel array (5 panels for his 120VDC system) on standard round steel tube fence gate type panel(s) mounted on post(s) like gates, we can swing it back to facing the SSW for winter and have ''free'' additional winter gain which will help on darker winter days.  His SO would also like later PV input in summer so she can use more electric cooking for dinner.





Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on October 30, 2017, 09:48:10 AM
Here is a quick frequency scan of a typical cheap High Frequency DC to AC inverter showing just how noisy they are in a radio frequency sense.  The spectrum analyser is struggling to keep the RF interference levels on screen. Without getting technical, thats a logarithmic vertical scale, each division is twice the  amplitude of the one below it, so around a 1000 to 1 increase over quiescent background noise..  Vertical scale is the amplitude of the interference, the horizontal scale represents the frequency of each harmonic. The total scan width here is zero to 30 MHz, or the complete BC AM and Shortwave broadcast band. The harmonics on this inverter example extended  to well over 500MHz  despite the output frequency being  at 50 Hz.
The analyzer itself is operating off a Low Frequency inverter, with no signs of interference at all and having no additional supression.


https://youtu.be/xmoqa5KFo7U
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on October 30, 2017, 03:59:56 PM
Typically the thinwall square tube is a pretty good deal, and you won't see a big price jump in going a bit oversize for safety/overkill.  Reducing holes in the roof is the goal- so larger square tube and fewer attachments to the roof makes sense to me. Your roof material/construction also would make a difference, as would the number and spacing of rails.

I'm absolutely not a roof mount expert...you might want to take a look see at bigger company or more reputable  residential or commercial jobs in your area and at the commercial hardware being used.  See how high above the roof they are mounting them -  trade off for wind and heat.  Some engineer likely figured out something that was a good trade off for cost/performance.

The 250 watt panels typically use 50 mm C section aluminum that is pretty strong.  On my smaller roof mounted panels I use nothing but 4  L brackets made of 1/8 x 2" steel, except for the winter tilt 12V panel on my shop which has braces off the top edge.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on November 10, 2017, 06:29:52 PM
Does Australia receive FOX News?  Humor is where you find it.

I think this last page of posts underline Elon Musk's current criticism of Hydrogen powered fuel cell power.  When we have way more electrical power than we need then that tune will most likely change.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on November 11, 2017, 04:07:36 PM
Good Grief

So how is the big solar storage thing going?
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 16, 2017, 10:40:18 AM
Im pretty impressed with my Chinese solar panels. Have had 30 amps for 10 hours  a day now for nigh on a week, batteries are bulging with hot electrons. Lister hasnt run for the longest time in its history, its looking a little lost and neglected.
This is my first summer with a decent lot of PVs... they are pretty boring, no moving parts, no comforting exhaust note, and have never heard my batteries bubbling before because of the noise.
Just read an article, China is now leading in  electric vehicle , battery technology and solar panel manufacture.
My next battery bank will be a 2 kW Toyota Prius battery pack rewired to 48 volts. These are $3000NZ new, very competitive with a similar bank of lead acid.
Im sure a charge controller can be designed to allow car alternators to charge these correctly without damage.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on November 19, 2017, 09:38:22 AM
Hey Starfire, re China and EVs

Dunno if you take any notice of the Nurburgring?  It's kinda THE forum to sort out the men from the boys when someone claims to be making a genuinely fast car.  Not just fast in a straight line, or fast off the mark, or fast through a set of tight bends - but genuine real-world point-to-point FAST

Last time I looked the fastest thing around the Nurburgring was, you guessed it, a 1400 HP, Chinese-built electric car

Way of the future perhaps?
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on November 19, 2017, 05:40:54 PM
Hmmm-  Prius cells are only 6.5 ah, so I'm not so sure about this approach. I don't know what kind of individual cell charge management they use in these Prius modules; some approaches don't lend themselves to parallel cells. I also wonder what the residual cycle life curve looks like after 80% depletion.




Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on November 19, 2017, 06:23:10 PM
I did a bit more reading on the Prius battery packs. No wonder so many are available cheap-  they don't have a good cell management system so cells are drifting out of match and then failing prematurely.  You must then replace all of your mixing varying aged cells will result in very poor performance. They seem to be monitoring two blades of 7V in series but don't provide enough detail to know what the problem with their battery management system is. Individual cell voltage/charge management isn't use and I believe most EVs do that to avoid this type of problem.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1028.2529&rep=rep1&type=pdf

They certainly aren't ideal for off grid power use.




Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on November 19, 2017, 07:16:00 PM
Quote
They certainly aren't ideal for off grid power use.

Certainly not as-is, if they're not doing per-cell management... but if you've got the electronical wizardry necessary (I haven't... but I do have a very clever friend I can ask who would be able to work it out), and you can modify the pack to do per-cell management, then you'd be able to rescue a cheap "dead" pack, quite possibly to near-original efficiency.

This used to be what killed laptop batteries off: The individual cells would drift out of sync, so when you charged them, the charger stopped when the most-charged cell reached capacity; but your battery would be "flat" when the least-charged cell discharged. Meanwhile, if the "most charged" cell still had 90% of its charge - tough! The battery was apparently flat. And charging the battery would only put (in this case) around 10% charge into the discharged cell before it stopped. Hence the "5 minute runtime" and the bad rep Lithium batteries got early in their lives. These days, all cells are individually monitored and charged, so laptop batteries don't degrade anything like how they used to. I do wonder, how many perfectly good LiIon or NiMH batteries got thrown away, just because they weren't being charged correctly?
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on November 19, 2017, 08:22:26 PM
I concur, AdeV.   Same thing happens with lead acid batteries, but there regular equalization charging (adding water and sacrificing positive plate life for the best cells) is typically used to compensate for the drift in charge rate of individual cells and groups of cells (batteries).

The AGMs in the early EV days were dying very quickly until battery management was developed to reduce it. They could not be equalized for long periods or the electrolyte got dried up.  The simple individual 12v battery shunt regulator (limiting individual battery voltage) as used by Manzanita Power saved the day and is the approach I used for my 120V bank. It works surprisingly well; the batteries become more and more matched over time instead of less, kicking to absorption and float stages within half a minute of each other and a bad battery can be replaced without concern for matching.  Watering just a bit over a gallon every 2nd year doesn't break my heart either.  On my neighbor's upgraded version, we found equalization charging to match individual cells within a battery (checked via hygrometer) can be virtually eliminated by a slight increase in float voltage, since the batteries are typically in float all afternoon.  His system bulk charges at a higher current than mine so we watched things closely the first year.

I think even in 48V wet lead banks battery life could be improved by individual battery management. Yes, it adds cost and complexity, but over time, the ongoing replacement cost of batteries is the biggest component of your power bill. I haven't seen it offered in any 48V system yet.



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 20, 2017, 10:12:14 AM
Interesting. I dont know for sure but this is what Im thinking.
Prius packs are packs of 7 volts that are seriesed to 210 volts or so.
The packs as received  are monitored at 1/3rd  sections, or at the 70 volt taps.
If they were  seriesed to two  x 15 paralleled, ie 14 volts x 15, to get a nominal 14 volts at  6.5ah X 15 = close to 100ah.
Monitoring parallel packs is easier than many  series cells, so runaway cells "should" be held down by the other paralleled cells.
By making two independent packs of 50ah, each can be alternatively 100 percent discharged so every charge cycle starts from a known start point.
As I understand it, they dont mind a hefty discharge cycle, but are fussy about charging.
If charging from a known low state of charge, then a simple watt hour meter will control /indicate a reasonable charge time.
If a fixed charge rate can be given, then a simple timer may be sufficient.
The charging can easily be kept below the 100 percent full without damaging the pack, or needing fancy charge controllers.
The encouraging thing with these, to get the equivqlent AH from lead acid requires  around 800ah to prevent excessively hard discharge cycling.
The size reduction and maintenance issues are also bloody enticing as well.
A low voltage detect will allow each bank to switch itself in and out when it needs to be charged.
Problems with inverters are likely as the bank voltage rises, if we have a "48 volt" system, the nearest pack voltage will be 7 volts X 8 cells = 56 volts, probably too high, or 7 volts X 6 cells = 42 volts, probably too low.
14 volts for a nominal 12 volt system is good, and the higher current drain suits these cells.
Thats my thinking anyway.
By using light intercell interconnections, a shorted cell will fuse itself automatically isolating itself from the bank.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on November 20, 2017, 04:32:48 PM
I did some reading on manzanitamicro.com about their lithium battery regulators. I was dead wrong about paralleling of lithium cells being a problem; since voltage and state of charge are directly linked for lithium cells (unlike lead acid) parallel cells can be managed together.  Alas, series lithium cells MUST be managed separately according to literature at manzanitamicro.com and other sources.  So it would seem there there is no way to avoid series cell management if long battery life is desired.  Prius switched to the battery they used late in the game and it pretty well proves that short cuts don't work; their early failure rate is commonly acknowledged.  They are only monitoring current and temperature in pairs of 7v modules and are not doing cell voltage limiting.

Manzanita's scheme for lithium batteries is similar to their lead-acid; shunt regulators with thermal feedback to the charger to have it cut back on charge current as shunting current (heat sink temp) gets higher.  So rate of charge is limited by amount of current handling of the shunt regulators, keeping the best cells from overcharging. They use on/off switching of a shunting mosfet and power resistor to limit the cell voltage.

Other regulator schemes use more elaborate means- using the shunted power through a switching power converter to help feed the other cells rather than dissipate it all as heat.  The trade off being much higher complexity, and a lot of EMI generated.

All together, the individual cell regulators, monitoring equipment and variable rate charger that manzanitamicro sells is a fairly complex system-  but with our present battery tech, it's the best approach to get good battery life.  Tesla does something similar, but I have not studied their design. I don't believe they would add the extra complexity and cost unless it was absolutely needed. 







Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on November 21, 2017, 12:42:49 AM
I couldn't resist checking for information on Tesla's battery management scheme.  They don't provide any technical details but others have torn apart batteries to have a look and have reported their findings.  I had a couple hours entertainment searching for useful engineering info.

Their modules of cells use a TI battery management chip (bq76PL536A) which I could read the datasheet for.  It is stackable to 191 levels on the SPI bus and handles 6 series cells per chip. It has 6 dedicated outputs to drive N-ch mosfets with power resistors for cell balancing. It monitors voltages and temperatures so the main charge controller can adjust charge current, etc. 

A nice bunch of electronics to manage the Tesla batteries with their racks of small lithium cells, but they did it right.



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 21, 2017, 03:36:32 AM
I think the longer a series string becomes, the likelyhood of mismatched cells/charging increases.
With low voltage  parallel strings, the problem diminishes.... I think.
However, 1000 AH of lead acid runs to $3000 here in NZ to give the 20 percent depth of discharge of 200ah and maybe 5 years of useful life.
For the same price we can have the equivalent in Lithium cells that will do the same job, smaller with no maintenance, and even if the lifespan is similar, they still have these advantages anyway.
One faulty cell in a series string limits the whole battery to that what the faulty cell can provide, one faulty cell in a parallel config will reduce the AH by a paultry 6/7 ah, everything else remains the same., both current and voltage.
This allows the battery to be micromanaged, replacing faulty cells only, not the whole thing.
It would be uneconomic to have a hugely fancy and complex charge controller, but if one was not required, the economics are there and make more sense.
The likes of Prius/Tesla, they have to consider fast charging, regenerative braking power inputs, output currents, temperature etc, this may explain the complexity,  but with off grid stuff, its a simple known current in, known current out thing.
Thats why I thought to divide the bank into two, and charge one while using the other, overcharging seems to be the bain of these type of battery, and unlike lead acid, will not be damaged by full discharging, and partialy full charging... maybe to 75 percent only.
The electronics to detect low voltage and when to switch out a bank is trivial, as is a timer to control charging time. Both sytems can simply control an old fashioned low tech change over relay even via the ubiquitous 555 timer..

The internet seems confusing at times just what these batteries need, but for off grid use, I think it can be kept quite simple. Even if each paralleled pairs were seperately and manually monitored with a voltmeter once a month by having shorting links, battery health could be monitored initially to see how its working out.
If there were a constant degradation then it would need looking into, but chances are they would perform reasonably well.
Even a real time battery capacity test could be automagically computed by monitoring output watthours, then charging the same bank with an added 20 percent or so, whatever the charge/chemical efficiency is.
The best scenario is just to connect and forget.
My lead acids have a few years left yet, but I do think these Prius packs are worth a try.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 21, 2017, 04:13:29 AM
And Bruce, thats a great bit of info you linked to, thanking you.
They appear to ground the center tap, and differentially compare the end voltages to detect battery malfunction.... the absolute voltages are ignored, only the difference will flag a battery error, this is a good way to do this. The charging/discharge current of 63 amps ( 63 x 210 = 13 kW) does give a very large total voltage change, but remember, this is  with all in  series .
The equivalent charge rate at the nominal 14 volts will be  well over  900 amps.... hardly likely in real life.
A 14 volt paralleled pack would change from approx 6.2 x 2 = 12.4 volts discharged to 8.2 X 2 = 16.4 volts during charging.... a tad high, but this would reduce at a lowered charging current.... most connected inverters would overvolt and shut down at this point.
By bank switching, this is not a problem however.
Its unclear if each module can be further disassembled to replace individual cells, but everything is possible.
The main cell failure mode seems to be shorted cells, or chemical degradation over time.
Looking at the figures, an off grid situation will baby these cells compared to what EVs demand from them.
Thats if I have interpreted the figures rightly.
As mentioned, shorted cells become increasingly manageable at low voltages and paralleled modules.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 21, 2017, 04:30:02 AM
Another thing of interest is the cell leakage problem, where moisture can cause power leakage to ground or adjacent cells. This will not be an issue at lower voltages either.  As we go higher in a series chain, the voltage to ground increases, and smaller amounts of leakage will have a larger effect.
The mention that cells degrade faster as we get to the center of the pack, suggesting temperature damage, will also not be an issue with much less charging current.  However a high discharge current could still cause temperature differential.
My answer to this would be simply to immerse the whole thing in a container  of oil.
Again, Prius takes 63 amps from each cell. Off grid at say a 100 amp draw would take 100/15, or only 6 amps per cell, thats a huge difference, a factor of 10.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on November 21, 2017, 04:38:06 AM
I don't think lithium cell charge/discharge rate is the only issue, as most laptops charge at moderate currents and discharge slowly yet most have gone to per cell management.  It's the varying charge resistance and efficiency over time between cells.  Each cell must be kept within a range of voltages (high and low) for good lifespan, somehow. Since you are contemplating a very low voltage battery, with massively parallel 6 ah cells, it seems some cell balancing via simple fixed voltage shunt regulators would be a reasonable effort and expense.

Prius got mostly away with more limited cell management, so with some clever design you could too. I will eagerly await your report, Starfire. 




Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 21, 2017, 05:24:03 AM
Tesla I think is largely a collection of existing technology with  some clever marketing. It uses nothing more than a large bank of laptop batteries, a powerful electric motor, and clever and visible  electronics, all packaged to appeal to the American love of horsepower and bling.
Even the exclusive price tag creates an elite ownership, and is not seen  as a disadvantage.
Prius on the other hand appeals to the commuter, the greenie, the average bloke wanting reliability and cost effective motoring at a good price. This meant a smaller electric motor and battery, and the petrol engine to compliment it.
More complex by far, and having far more innovation.
Not to belittle any of this, but at the end of the day we are really looking at nothing more than a laptop battery pack, an electric drill power pack, or anything similar, running an electric motor, just on a much bigger scale.
Economies of scale suggest that a Prius battery pack containing 38 modules of 6 X 1.2 volt 6.5 ah Lithium cells will be the cheapest and most convenient way to buy them in this quantity.
Looking on Allibaba,  I see these......

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Big-promotion-100-PCS-many-of-the-original-18650-2600-mah-lithium-ion-rechargeable/32319166341.html?ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5_10152_10065_10151_10344_10068_10345_10342_10547_10343_10340_10341_10548_10541_10562_10084_10083_10307_10175_10060_10155_10154_10539_10312_10059_10313_10314_10534_10533_100031_10103_10073_10594_10557_10596_10595_10142_10107,searchweb201603_1,ppcSwitch_5&btsid=d8063deb-3f6e-4745-9c80-e68c47d48db3&algo_expid=9f772f63-0e80-4d46-bbb8-59c3d938dbcf-23&algo_pvid=9f772f63-0e80-4d46-bbb8-59c3d938dbcf&rmStoreLevelAB=0

at 2600mAh, so we need to parallel 3 to get our 6.5 ah at 1.2 volts.
We then need  12 in series to get our 14 volts.
We then repeat this 15 times, to get our equivalent 100ah.
Thats 3 X 12 X 15 =  540 cells.
$400 for 100 cells, special promotion price, we are  gunna spend around $2400
Then we need to package them.
I dont know about you, but to connect 540 batteries together would drive me nuts, and take me hours to do.
Toyota have already done this for us......
Looking at it this way, they seem pretty good value.

Has Glort surfaced..... im getting a little concerned about him......???
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on November 21, 2017, 05:36:07 AM
Prius gets mileage similar to many small economical diesel cars sold in Europe (but no offered in the US), but at many times the price. Hurray for greenwashing. Americans...well, what more can you say, we're notorious and infamous.

I'm standing in for Glort. I hope he's just on vacation.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 21, 2017, 05:53:08 AM
Your messages are far too short to be a good Glort, but I appreciate you trying though.....
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on November 22, 2017, 05:36:59 PM
I was diesel crazy a couple of years ago until I got used to the truck smelling - - - kinda sweet from fry oil.  Then I realized how much of the fuel was being ingested by my lungs.  Next thing I thought of was the day I washed the cream head liner in my Karmen Ghia.  It was actually white and the yellow crap streaming down the windows - YIKES!.  I was tobacco clean a month later but not free at least six months.  I had a chest X-ray 40 years later and the evaluation included some discussion about my smoking.  Flabbergasted; I was.  You might conclude Never Free From the Man.

I've never slowed down or changed routes for a Prius.  Buses and large trucks - Absolutely.

Amen starfire.  Nice introductory glort styled paragraph but your 5000 words short on the conclusion.  I hope my Greenie reply is with merit.  (Not a hidden ad for menthol cigarettes.)
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on November 22, 2017, 11:11:31 PM
FWIW if you go to Wellington (capital city of our small country) the CBD roads are clogged with Prius taxis.  You'll never see a "Kiwi" face driving them, they are all folks from the Indian subcontinent & neighbours like Afghanistan - Hard-working folks whose English and qualifications aren't good enough to get them a regular job and who are self-employed as a result.  I figure they kinda stick together, cos someone has been importing Priuses (is that the plural?) from Japan by the container-load.

BUT, here's the thing - they say they are all Gen11 models.  Not the Gen 1 and not the later ones.  Allegedly the battery packs on these models are the "goodies". 

Might just be gossip, or might be the Good Oil

Speaking of oil, is Glort dead?  I figure he'd have to be fairly seriously injuired to be silent?  Hope he's OK?
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 22, 2017, 11:13:29 PM
Well Lowgear, I gave up smoking as a teenager, started again a few years back. I was becoming concerned I may live too long and end up with Alzheimers, dementia, arthritis, or 100 other horrible age related diseases. The tobacco companies promise a timely and quick  death, heart attack or anurism....  I hope they are correct and I wont have to sue them for false and misleading advertising.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 22, 2017, 11:17:21 PM
Glort is a worry. Electrocution has been mentioned, or perhaps hes fallen of the roof? Or hes incinerated his self with another oil burner experiment....
It will be very quiet in Australia right now....
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 22, 2017, 11:20:58 PM
Actually Mike, was looking on Trademe last night, you/me can buy a Prius for around $3500nz for the whole car! Thats the same price as a new battery pack... wierd.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Samo on November 23, 2017, 08:27:03 AM
Quote
I gave up smoking as a teenager, started again a few years back. I was becoming concerned I may live too long and end up with Alzheimers, dementia, arthritis, or 100 other horrible age related diseases. The tobacco companies promise a timely and quick  death, heart attack or anurism....  I hope they are correct and I wont have to sue them for false and misleading advertising

Hey Starfire,

My wife and kids laughed out loud at this! Thought it was something our grandfather would say! 2 kindred spirits?

Samo
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on November 23, 2017, 08:48:32 AM
Actually Mike, was looking on Trademe last night, you/me can buy a Prius for around $3500nz for the whole car! Thats the same price as a new battery pack... wierd.

It's OK for you to do that cos you know how to tinker with electronics to whip it into shape

I'm better off with a few old lead-acids and a hygrometer . . .
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on November 23, 2017, 05:02:43 PM
Interesting plan.  I started having more plant based meals and fewer of them to avoid a tough death and you went back to tobacco.  I had to laugh too.  I just can't let go of the self righteousness.  I do know that if I were to ever go to prison the first thing I'd do is buy a carton of Lucky Strikes.  I always enjoyed smoking after sex.

Uber and Lyft have really put tremendous pressure on the Afghanistan and Indian Foreign Legions here in the states.  They too use the Prius Command Cars.  They'd probably like to teach school as well but they only have doctorates in Nuclear Energy.

OK, back to topic.  I'm seeing more and more articles about distributed solar energy programs.  This is really refreshing for us Elon fans.  I just don't understand the loyalty to fossil fuels?  If this doesn't get glort out then we need to send a team in as he's being held for ransom or something even worse.  You know I was thinking electrical shock from one of his lamp cord infrastructure programs too.  Almost scary.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on November 23, 2017, 05:43:19 PM
Prius would be a huge improvement in mileage for a city taxi. All those starts, stops, and sitting are ideal for it.  Smart choice for that application.  Too much down time for charging all electric cars until some better battery tech comes along.




Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 23, 2017, 09:26:59 PM
Interesting plan.  I started having more plant based meals and fewer of them to avoid a tough death and you went back to tobacco.  I had to laugh too.  I just can't let go of the self righteousness.  I do know that if I were to ever go to prison the first thing I'd do is buy a carton of Lucky Strikes.  I always enjoyed smoking after sex.


Im told vegetarians really dont live any longer, it just seems that way. 
I think having sex in prison may take  a bit more than a packet of lucky strikes to settle the nerves.... or did you not intend to connect the two?
A local lass here was once asked if she smoked after sex.... she said she had never looked.
We need Glort back to keep this on topic.....
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on November 23, 2017, 11:25:17 PM
"  You know I was thinking electrical shock from one of his lamp cord infrastructure programs too.  Almost scary  "

I wonder if someone should go check up on him - maybe his wife ran out of patience and drove a sharpened knitting needle into his brain while he slept?

Joking aside, I hope he's OK.  The forum wouldn't be the same . . .
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: dieselspanner on November 24, 2017, 06:53:26 AM
Welcome Back!

Whilst you were away I took to scanning the Aussie news to see if you'd made the obituaries, found this and wondered if you'd overdone the role of taste tester..........

http://www.news.com.au/finance/small-business/were-like-f-you-woolworths-perth-mum-raking-in-8000-a-day-on-amazon-welcomes-aussie-launch/news-story/6dc2ff9835b1bc2710ce1a44635191cb

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 24, 2017, 07:41:57 AM
Yeah, bring a note next time, we were all worried about you Glort. Just going away like that and not telling anyone. We were worried sick.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on November 24, 2017, 07:54:04 AM
Nice long rant to scroll happily past - all back to normal.  Excellent
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 24, 2017, 08:24:52 AM
And hes totally ruined the competition for the free tee shirt.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on November 24, 2017, 05:57:56 PM
I tried to read the whole thing.  But the contest crash was such a downer I just couldn't focus. 

So did Lassie eat the Environmental Impact Statement and save Australia from going all renewable?

A bad connection.  Who would have guessed?  I've found if I spend more time tightening things down a second time around rather than trying to set my keyboard on fire I have fewer fires.  Sort of fighting fire without fire.

Are you sure you weren't consulting with Trump about a technological  break through code named Coal Fired Magic?  My contest entry suggestion.

OK, PC Leader:


Welcome back glort.


Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on November 25, 2017, 07:29:12 PM
Huh?

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1113963_tesla-builds-worlds-largest-lithium-ion-battery-for-utility-use-in-australia (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1113963_tesla-builds-worlds-largest-lithium-ion-battery-for-utility-use-in-australia)

Stupid Elon.  What's he know?

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on November 25, 2017, 10:36:42 PM
You have to hand it to Elon Musk - he may have a weird name, and he may have made his fortune by creating the evil entity known as PayPal (in fairness, it only got really evil when eBay got their hands on it); but right here right now he's driving a one-company revolution in electric storage/EVs/etc. Sure, we can all snicker at the home sized Tesla battery; but this thing he's build in Australia is the model of things to come.

When we're all driving around in EVs, ever garage (gas station) in the land is going to need one of those things - not quite as big, granted, but still pretty big - to prevent grid overloads when rapid-charging EVs. Personally, i can't wait for EVs to become sufficiently commonplace that owning one ceases to be a "range anxiety" gamble, because you know even if it's not fully charged, you can top-up en route. I'd even buy one of those Tesla Model 3s, if they ever manage to make them in quantity. I'd like to retrofit my Jag XJ12 even more... and I can use the old 6 litre V12 in my racing car then.

For years, there's been dreamers (like me) of an electric future. Musk, love him or loathe him, is out there making it happen. Good on him.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on November 26, 2017, 12:00:58 AM
Hey Ade, wanna see the future?

I don't know if you have any interest in modern cars, fast cars in particular?  But if you want to know if a car is "fast" - not just fast in a straight line, or fast down a /4 mile dragstrip, or fast around a racetrack - but real-world, point-to-point fast, IMHO Nurburgring times are the goods

Top of the Nurburgring tree right now?

A Chinese, 1mW (1300hp) ELECTRIC car

I have seen the future . . . check out the link

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/15/motorsport/nio-ep9-electric-supercar-nrburgring-lap-record-production/index.html

cheers
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on November 26, 2017, 12:10:33 AM
Two things.  No.  Three things:

Electric motor, all the torque, any old time

No shagging about changing gears

Man. does that driver have confidence in his tyres

:)
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 26, 2017, 01:19:38 AM
Thanks for the link Mike.
Warning.... a Glort type post follows.... I will call it Glorting.
The Chinese are the worlds leaders in hitech now.
Recently I enquired on Alibaba about Nickel/Iron batteries from a Chinese manufacturer and got some very interesting chat from the lady responding to my questions.
The chinese government are very forward thinking, and have very good incentives for R and D and innovation. This  NiFe battery manufacturer, because these are a non toxic item, ripe for further development, have their sales tax and export costs fully reimbursed to encourage and help fund further "green" research and development.
This is much better than the corrupt one way extraction of money by western governments.
Many good aspects of a communist system is a direct result of  the long  lifetime of the governing body, we dont have the fiasco of a new ruler dismantling  decisions made by a previous government just a few years prior, as we see happening in the US right now. This instills far more long term confidence in the manufacturing sector,  change is unlikely, and large investments in the future are much less risky.
I happen to like that system, rather than this silly western crap we have now where empty promises are  continually made then broken.
The Chinese are in for the long haul, and this  demands great respect.
I think it is painfully obvious that this capitalistic "democratic" system of ours is a failure.
Democracy to me is like a committee, where so many compromises are made that NOONE gets what  they originally needed or wanted.... a weak watered down policy thats really not fit for purpose.
After all, few have any problem working under the non democratic and dictatorial factory manager or retail shop, where you are TOLD what hours you will work, and what you will be paid. The business in question would not survive otherwise.
 Running a country is also a business..... the treatment of workers from a government likely to be very much fairer than from a greedy self entitled western businessman who can shift his financial responsibilties to tax havens and have his workers paid with tax paid benefits, top ups and foodstamps.
The Chinese are investing heavily in solar, wind, and nuclear fusion, no doubt helped by the ongoing but rapidly decreasing pollution problems. What makes this possible is their system of consistent and reliable government, using the vast resources only a government can provide. The West is in a slow and painful decline.
  China  has risen from poverty to a superpower,  in just a few decades.
 To me, this  is good proof of an efficient  system, despite its many flaws, that  appears to work well.


Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on November 26, 2017, 01:33:53 AM
Yes and No, Starfire

Old Winnie Churchill said that Democracy was full of holes etc but the alternatives were worse

IMHO the Chinese system works not because it is communist (it probably isn't any more) but because it's a dictatorship

(Just like the English who painted half the globe red for 400 years before inventing constitutional monarchy and beginning the downhill slide)

Dictatorships work not because they are inherently good - many aren't - but because they provide continuity - the ability to plan 10, 50, 100 years ahead

But - and this is the reason the English adopted a constitutional monarchy, a Magna Carta and the concept of the Rule of Law - dictatorships and "communist" states tend to be crap on human rights; and if you don't bring people along with you, as soon as they develop a substantial middle class, they will find a way to tip you out

Now, if we had elected politicians who cared about the good of the country rather than their own idealogies . . .
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 26, 2017, 01:53:25 AM
I think there is a major difference now though. Despotic dictators are now frowned upon, and cannot hide given the information super highways we have now. We all know who the bad buggers are. The days of Pol Pot, and Mao Tse Tung are over, they could not survive. Even medium type bad buggers have to clean up their act in order to function on the world stage.
The problem we have now is the self appointed "global conscience" that decides who is the despot, and at what degree.
They fail to understand the culture and context. Human life has very different value, depending on country and religion.
A very good example is Kim Jong Un, a despot by our measure, but a god to his people.
His priority is to protect his country and people, the exact same mandate as all leaders of all other countries.
He has done a fantastic job of this, this cannot be denied.
From a desecrated country, raped and pillaged by the Japanese, then bombed and Napalmed into oblivion by the west, and with  no to little outside help, they are now a nuclear nation.
They are guilty only of wanting sovereignty, security, and prosperity, as we do.
We wont tolerate their values, likewise, they have equal right to not tolerate ours
Is this not the "freedom" that we preach?

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 26, 2017, 04:55:55 AM
Sorry Glort.... Ill try harder.... please dont beat me, Im new to Glorting and you have more practice.
Welcome back by the way.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on November 26, 2017, 07:12:29 AM
.......and with  no to little outside help, they are now a nuclear nation......

They actually had quite a lot of outside help, from refinement to warhead design and many versions of Scuds to copy to Launch vehicles.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on November 26, 2017, 07:17:54 AM
Starfire I know you are enjoying playing Devil's Advocate here.  We might have to agree to disagree on some of the political stuff

FWIW I would say - look at the two Koreas.  Both were pretty battered in the '50s and both took very different paths

Don't be hard on Glort.  he has feelings . . .
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 26, 2017, 07:29:32 AM
Starfire I know you are enjoying playing Devil's Advocate here.  We might have to agree to disagree on some of the political stuff

FWIW I would say - look at the two Koreas.  Both were pretty battered in the '50s and both took very different paths

Don't be hard on Glort.  he has feelings . . .
Yes, Im pushing the off topic a bit far getting into politics, Ill quit.
But, if you have a spare  hour, watch this, I believe it was a NZ production. Its whats called a mockumentary, but theres much truth in it.... I think you will enjoy it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohCfS55zGME
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 26, 2017, 12:32:42 PM
BTW, can anyone tell me what the " approved" post length is?

Not sure Glort, but I think a little shorter would be good......
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on November 26, 2017, 08:57:12 PM
OK.  To "humour"  add  "Irony"  :)
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on November 26, 2017, 09:17:20 PM
OK, enough with the sniping lads. Some of us like to write lots, some not so much. Feel free to skip the bits you think you're not interested in, but let's not have any carping about the fact they were written.

And yes, I know you all probably have tongues firmly in cheek - but remember, good natured sarcasm/irony and indeed humour is very hard to put across when you've only got the written word and a few smileys to play with. Please, read what you've written and imagine you're a visitor to this forum. We know it's all in good humour, but a stranger might think this is a bit of a vicious place to hang out...

PS: Yes, you lot all spell humour incorrectly. Just putting that out there.  ;D We invented the bloody language, you lot should toe the line.

Glort - I'll write a considered reply later - right now I've got a pizza in the oven, and there's a film on the TV that ain't going to watch itself...
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: broncodriver99 on November 26, 2017, 09:42:28 PM
PS: Yes, you lot all spell humour incorrectly. Just putting that out there.  ;D We invented the bloody language, you lot should toe the line.

Humor us would you?   ;)
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on November 27, 2017, 05:40:47 AM
Yep.  Somethings happened.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on November 27, 2017, 07:02:02 AM
"   OK, enough with the sniping lads. Some of us like to write lots, some not so much. Feel free to skip the bits you think you're not interested in, but let's not have any carping about the fact they were written.

And yes, I know you all probably have tongues firmly in cheek - but remember, good natured sarcasm/irony and indeed humour is very hard to put across when you've only got the written word and a few smileys to play with. Please, read what you've written and imagine you're a visitor to this forum. We know it's all in good humour, but a stranger might think this is a bit of a vicious place to hang out...   "

Ade, you are dead right, of course.  The history of acrimonious online arguments is littered with things that started out ironic, or humorous, or light-hearted; and the written word never conveys that well

My apologies.  Thanks for hauling us up
   
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: basewindow on November 27, 2017, 09:22:54 AM
Perhaps Humerus? ? ?  😉
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on November 27, 2017, 11:43:10 AM
Don't get me started on Hummus..... (blech)
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: broncodriver99 on November 27, 2017, 03:28:29 PM
Glort, you may have mentioned it before but what are you paying per kwh? Also, I just noticed you mentioned Feb 2018 being your next meter read. Are you on a 3 month billing cycle? I am trying to wrap my head around the expense of your electric bills. Obvoiusly you have pretty high usage since you are adding so much solar as an offset but those bills seem mind boggling to me. Way above any kind of average I would expect here in the US.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on November 27, 2017, 05:17:41 PM
E=MC^2
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on November 27, 2017, 08:35:35 PM
OK, enough with the sniping lads. Some of us like to write lots, some not so much. Feel free to skip the bits you think you're not interested in, but let's not have any carping about the fact they were written.

And yes, I know you all probably have tongues firmly in cheek - but remember, good natured sarcasm/irony and indeed humour is very hard to put across when you've only got the written word and a few smileys to play with. Please, read what you've written and imagine you're a visitor to this forum. We know it's all in good humour, but a stranger might think this is a bit of a vicious place to hang out...

PS: Yes, you lot all spell humour incorrectly. Just putting that out there.  ;D We invented the bloody language, you lot should toe the line.

Glort - I'll write a considered reply later - right now I've got a pizza in the oven, and there's a film on the TV that ain't going to watch itself...

Ade - I dunno how to break it to you, but you gents didn't invent the language - you cobbled it together from French (spoken by the Ruling Classes in Blighty for a couple of centuries),  Latin, from the Romans who ruled your green islands for a wee while, the old "Anglo Saxon" family of languages that predates the conquests by Rome and then the Normans and random bits borrowed from the various European and Asian nations you chaps traded with

"Humour" is a case in point, being an old Latin word borrowed by the French, who changed the meaning/use of it substantially before lending it to the English, who changed the meaning of it again before lending it to the Americans who struggled with the spelling of it (and whose President, arguably, struggles with the concept as a whole)

Just saying . . .

Cheers
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on November 27, 2017, 11:48:57 PM
Wow.  I hope with the huge bills and high backfeed, you have all the T's crossed and i's Dotted with the power Co so they don't sic the Fraud Dept on you.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: broncodriver99 on November 28, 2017, 01:24:02 AM
Quote
Also, I just noticed you mentioned Feb 2018 being your next meter read. Are you on a 3 month billing cycle?
Yes. to the best of my knowledge that's standard here for Physical reads but I think those with smart meters may get or be able to get monthly bills.

If I understand correctly, your electric bill is ~$400/month. That makes a little more sense. I would say that is a high average here. A buddy of mine runs about that in the Summer when he runs his pool pump and 2 central air units.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on November 28, 2017, 07:56:45 AM
The Tesla Battery

Quote
I was reading up on that a bit more last night as it's due to go online in a few days, Dec1.  the realists are analyzing the thing and pretty much laughing at it.  What it will apparently do is help a lot with smoothing the grid from the fluctuations of the RE that state now relys on and keeping the voltage and frequency stable as the now blown up power stations did before.  If the wind stops at night, that battery will literally last about 30 sec to a min before it's done and the lights go out.  The experts are saying that's basically inevitable and pondering the ramifications for the state, the greenwashed gubbermint and Musk and Tesla whom have hyped this up so much.

Leaving aside, for the moment, the politics, greenwashing etc., I don't believe the battery is there to hold the grid up if the wind stops... It's there, as your 2nd sentence says, to smooth the inevitable fluctuations from wind power.

There are innumerable problems with wind power: It's unreliable, unpredictably intermittent and fluctuates by the moment. It also changes voltage and frequency every time the wind changes speed, unless the windmills are governed to a specific speed (which wastes energy & causes wear increasing maintenance costs, blah). Wind power, in short, is about as useful as a fart in a space suit. It has to be converted to DC to get rid of the variable frequency, then put back through "true sine wave" inverters (which are $$$ at domestic sizes, let alone industrial) which are aligned with the grid, and only then can the power be injected. By which time you've binned a load of it. The purpose of the battery is to store a bunch of that DC power, then you take the feed from the battery at a nice constant voltage & current; yes, it still needs the expensive inverter etc. but now you can size it to somewhere close to the battery bank's output capabilities; and unlike cars, as we know electronics prefer to be run pretty close to flat out, so long as you keep them cool.

So, what happens if the wind stops? Same as happens now; the wind farm stops putting energy onto the grid, and something else (usually a CCGT) takes over. Or a BFO diesel engine. Or a coal plant, if any of them are left... but most likely a gas turbine, because they're dead quick to spool up, and pretty efficient. The thing is, the power companies (the organised ones, at least) use some pretty heavy duty weather forecasting to make sure they've got a damn good idea when the wind is going to stop & start, so they've got their spare capacity ready. They won't run the battery flat when the wind stops, because they'll already be replacing its power with something else.

Full disclosure: My dad used to work in the power distribution industry here in the UK, and only retired a couple of years ago, so I do have some clue as to what I speak of.

Wind power, in my & the power industry's opinion, is a crock of shit - but it's been forced on them by the green weenies. Therefore, we (and they) have to live with it. There are better alternatives. For Australia, solar power is the obvious one.... an industrial sized solar farm - either solar-pv, or more likely a molten salt system ala the solar power plant in southern Spain, would provide a pretty reliable output - and provided they account for any likely clouding, a pretty predictable output (which is one of the most important factors to the power companies). At night, when it's obviously not producing anything, the electrical load is generally lower anyway, so no great loss. And unlike wind, the sun shines every day (even if it's shining on the tops of rain clouds while they're pissing on us....). Here in the UK, where we sometimes don't see the sun for weeks at a time, tidal power makes more sense. We're a small island, and the tides are rising or falling somewhere around the UK 24x7. Tidal systems are also fraught with difficulties - most difficult of all is the corrosive nature of seawater, and the requirement not to mince to many fish - but these can be overcome with suitable materials, and investment. Unfortunately, the lion's share of investment has gone to...... yep, you guessed it. Wind power. Fecking idiots. But that's getting political again, and is an argument for another place, another time.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on November 28, 2017, 02:18:28 PM
I was wrong.

With a 20 cent differential between night and day doesn't a storage battery make sense?  10 KW a day would be $2 a day or $700 a year.  How much would that sort of thing cost in your town.

A neighbor was working in one of the "Nicer" neighborhoods when he heard two people in the next yard discussing power rates.  One sums it up to the other;  "If $5,000 a month for electricity sounds like a lot maybe you're in the wrong neighborhood!"  Life can be sweet.  That was when we were paying 42 cents a KW so now that it's down to 28 I'd guess most anyone can move into that neighborhood.

I'm pretty careful about fooling around with the electrics in my house because of the fire insurance problem.  The insurance company disqualifies a claim because you have undocumented modifications to the wiring.  Is that part of the private enterprise program in Australia?
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on November 28, 2017, 03:03:04 PM
Where good old fashioned petroleum comes from and how some Americans are helping with that cause.

https://www.facebook.com/BoldNebraska/videos/1526910027357612/ (https://www.facebook.com/BoldNebraska/videos/1526910027357612/)

I'm think $42 is a nice round number and it's also the answer to life, the universe and everything.  What's on your giving Tuesday list?

The League of Women Voters

Consumer Reports

Union of Concerned Citizens

Drug Policy Alliance  (required for all greenies)

Oops, I almost forgot the wonderful progressive politicians I hope to see in office.

 :)
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on November 28, 2017, 03:28:23 PM
Guys

Sweeping statements again . . .

IMHO it's wrong to blanket describe renewables as "greenwashed" or "problematic"

Down here in our small country we are almost 100% renewable (the exception being a couple of old "backup" generation sites not actually in current use)

We have hydro and wind

Some of the hydro plants are 70 years old and still ticking along

If ever we have power outages they are local ones and it is inevitably due to the greed of the distribution companies who are inclined to continue to use old transmission assets until they fail.  There have been no failures of generation within my living memory

Just my $0.02
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on November 28, 2017, 05:45:20 PM
Yes glort; we know.  I was hoping others might read it with a grin on their faces and give some thought to how long we can live in the good ole days that weren't as good as we like to remember.  My ancestor's screwed Native Americans out of just about everything.  I'd like my generation to see a stop to that abuse (better hurry up as I turn 74 in January).  How's that refugee thing going for you guys?

I know Australians don't pay their fair share in the Middle East so perhaps that burden is why some of us are so fed up with the dominance of the petroleum industry in our lives and you're not.  And their insistence that there be no subsidies.  We spend billions there every year on our navy alone.  It's one of the reasons that stuff is so cheap - relative to solar, wind and batteries even with direct subsidies.

I believe my brother and sister greenies also trump (pun intended) conservation as the first step in responsible energy management.  I still remember my first house caulking workshop.  Some of the cracks were so wide we had to foam them and come back the following week with caulk.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on November 28, 2017, 07:03:52 PM
Personally, I suspect the renewable alternative to oil, is going to be..... oil.

Yep, really...

There's a Japanese scientist (or possibly a team) who have discovered an cultured a species of alge who convert sunlight, CO2 from the air (or maybe the water, given that algae live in water) and spit out crude oil as a waste product. It's early days yet, and it's not been made clear how difficult it is (or isn't) to make the things reproduce; but it strikes me as an elegant solution to the problem. Suck CO2 out of the air, convert it into oil using solar power - and given the huge deserts (with lots of sunshine) available in Australia, the Middle East, southern USA and Africa; that's a LOT of high-solar land area which could be used to generate this (for want of a better word) bio-oil. It'd give a decent boost to Africa's economies too, if they can manage to make it without shooting each other. And since it's crude oil, it can be cracked to give us all of our favourite "fossil" poisons - petrol, diesel, lubricating oil and maybe even propane and/or butane.

The future's green, literally, and still just as oily as it has been since the 1900s.

e.g. https://www.ft.com/content/85bb7f54-54da-11e7-9fed-c19e2700005f
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on November 28, 2017, 09:22:45 PM
Alas, AdeV, there's a paywall for the link you provided so we can't read the article, which I'd love to read.  If you give us the researcher's name maybe there's a copy cat article elsewhere in the public domain.

Algae oil has long looked like a very good renewable fuel source that could use sewage waste as a secondary benefit,  but large scale follow through has not happened and the devil is always in the details.  Large scale takes huge bucks and the inevitable problems are an expensive education.

There's some work by Sandia Labs in the US Salton Sea area that looks interesting regarding algae  for oil/chemical production.

https://share-ng.sandia.gov/news/resources/news_releases/salton-algae/#.Wh3KO3lryo8

 That area has long been proposed as a place capable of growing enough algae oil to provide most of the US oil needs, if LA sewage and seawater was piped in.  Alas, the devil is always in the details.

It is going to smell- no way around that for large open air algae systems. There is more exploratory commercial development for small closed systems.

Until we make the cost of fossil fuels reflect the total cost, including military and environmental, it's not possible for many other fuels/energy sources to compete. People will scream, but then shift to ways that save them money.  The trick is to harness personal and corporate greed to take us in a direction where we have a decent future for future generations, without a big negative impact in present quality of life.  Various carbon tax and cap/trade systems have been proposed to help facilitate this change.

The arguments stated against wind (except the obvious that we can't control the weather) are largely outdated and have been proven false; efficiency of the inverter type systems are now very high, and grid stability augmentation is built in the newer systems, and those developed techniques will be required for new PV systems in California.  At one time the power industry claimed over 10% PV or wind would destabilize the grid...but Denmark is now at 40% of their countries total average electrical power use and climbing.  Some days they are 100% wind and are they are often able to export excess capacity to Sweden via high voltage DC cables in the sea.

http://denmark.dk/en/green-living/wind-energy/

They've also created a windmill export industry for themselves so I tip my hat to them.  Even though wind is not my personal favorite, in some places/climates it makes very good sense.  When PV was more expensive, here in the White Mountains of Arizona many off grid homes used wind; it provided battery charging 24 hours a day when winter storms rolled in and storm clouds greatly diminished PV output.  Now it is less popular because of cost and maintenance relative to PV, again, specific to our climate and weather patterns.

Solar air conditioning is an area that definately needs some investment stimulus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_air_conditioning

One technology that could be used in the entire SW USA is Lithium Bromide air conditioning.  Direct solar heating can run the cooling- similar in concept to ammonia cycle refrigeration.  Much smaller roof footprint due to the higher efficiency of direct solar heating vs PV to conventional refrigerant compressor. PV prices now make this less appealing than superinsulation and PV/refrigeration for homes but for commercial buildings it could be the best way to go.

My own cooling needs have been largely eliminated by superinsulation for my particular climate; a one time cost that requires no ongoing maintenance and also saved me a lot of money for the solar hot water heating system as well.

I don't think it's stupid to plan for the future based on the best available science and start working out practical solutions to get there, even though the road will be full of the usual human follies.






Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: broncodriver99 on November 29, 2017, 01:21:48 AM
Do you live where it gets to 30oC + for days at a time and if so, how have you found the trapped heat is over come?
Do you just run the AC or can you ventilate it out at night easily? Does the building warm up and then the radiated heat keep going back inside?

We spend about 3 months of the year at or above 30C(86F). Our temps start rising in late May but the nights are still cool enough that one can get away with no AC. By mid June we are usually into the 90'sF with random days at 100F+. July and August can be pretty miserable here in the 90'sF most days and at least a week or two of mixed temps into the low 100'sF. Our biggest issue is not the temperature, one can acclimate to that, it's the humidity. Without AC there is just no way to dry off without sitting still in front of a fan which doesn't always work either.

I don't dare open my windows from June 1 to September 1 as it takes days for the AC to pull the humidity back out once the house is closed back up. There aren't many around here that don't have at least a window AC unit to keep one room cool on the hottest days. I used to be OK with toughing out all but the hottest of days but I have zero interest in it anymore. I work outside all day in the heat and sun and have no interest in sweating while sitting on my couch so I run the AC.

We had a whole house fan growing up, it moved a serious amount of air. We closed the windows in the AM before it got too warm and opened them up in late evening and ran the fan all night. I doesn't seem like it got as hot back then but I do believe that spending too much time in AC makes it harder to bear higher or lower temperatures.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on November 29, 2017, 02:25:56 AM
If our politicians had a brain cell each to rub together they would be making use of our abundant hydro-generated (and wind-boosted, because we are a narrow, windy pair of islands, and we overspill our hydro lakes when they get too full, and turn off our windmills when the lakes are high . . .) electricity, and be obliging governments and local bodies to buy electric cars.

Even if we had started that three or four years ago the "fleet roll-overs" would be appearing on the private market right now and there would be a big demand for them

IMHO there is just almost no downside to them - the energy they consume is generated "greenly" and, if they are government cars or commute-to-work folks' cars that sit in a parking garage most of the time during the day, attached to the charger, they would finally represent an electricity usage that's happening when solar is in a position to be making a contribution.

A few thousand of them introduced into the national fleet every year - instead of the ubiquitous Hyundai i30 or Toyota Corolla - would do good things for the environment, for the national transport fleet, and for our balance of payments; as we import the oil we burn, largely

Just vmy $0.02
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on November 29, 2017, 03:07:41 AM
Corporations only exist to profit shareholders, and CEO's have a fiduciary obligation to maximize those profits, lest they be fired by their boards.  They can ONLY be directed by profit incentives and only government can change the rules so that the desired actions are profitable.  Australia is not the only country to be struggling to come up with a carbon cap and trade system that works well, and the EU sustem has had bumps in that road as well as they adjust it to work better.  This is true for every complex endeavor of humans. 

Germany's program to phase out nuclear and coal plants involves reimbursing power companies for the remaining years of service those plants could have provided.  They have achieved 32% RE and their leadership really jump started the whole RE worldwide by their demand for PV and wind power and the resulting lowered cost for PV we now enjoy. They provided massive incentives for private and cooperative RE development.  There has been some backlash for the 50% increase in power bills (not as bad as that for the refugee program) but so far they have overall done an astonishing job of leading the world in RE. All this after footing the bill for bringing Eastern Germany out of severe poverty; a huge undertaking.  Change for the better is rarely cheap or easy. 

On algae- the problem seems to be lack of financial backing for the technically difficult and expensive large scale system development and refinement.  It would take government level backing.  Corporations can NOT do this because of the huge impact on near term profits.  Of the half dozen algae-oil studies I have read were pretty basic, low budget, university done, and were open and honest about potential problems and the need for more R&D.  Alas, any US congressman or senator who pushed a reasonable algae-oil research and  development program would find his opponents flooded with corporate coal, oil and gas money.  Both senators and congressmen are typically spending 3-4 hours a day, every working day,  soliciting funds for their next campaign. That's the way "democracy" works in the USA. 

Regarding superinsulation and trapped heat:
Before I built my home here I spent a fair amount time with a free thermal modeling program provided by an in-floor heat provider.  That helped me design for the best bang for my buck; you could change the wall, ceiling, floor, stem wall and window(s)  insulation values against your soil and air temperatures (day and night) and see what the BTU needs where for that room.  What I found was that typical homes are absolute crap if you don't want to piss away energy.  For construction details I did some on my own and stole a lot of ideas from Canadian designs. They have to be smart with their winter temperatures.

30C is only 85F.  That's mild enough that you have to be savy to get good bang for your insulation buck, especially with such a huge space to insulate (I vaguely recall your new place is roughly 5000 SF?) for a reasonable payback time.  My climate is much more extreme; 102 F is common in the day in June and early July (though nights are 40F cooler).

If you nights are cool,  the very large belt driving ceiling type, whole house ventilators can be very effective.  I can't tolerate the noise, among other problems, so just open my windows at night.  Since the house only gains 3 degrees F during the day,  that's all I have to loose. It works well, though cloudy nights which don't cool off (rare) mean the house will be a few degrees warmer the next day.

I have experimented with various schemes for cooling via cool water in the in-floor heating system.  The floor slab cooling approach has been proven by some New Mexico funded studies with real data for real homes and roof mounted collectors for night sky cooling, in a climate almost identical to mine.  I've built an 16 foot tall water cooling tower and collected data all night, trickled water down a 30 foot x 3 foot section of steel roof panel and collected data for a variety of night temperatures, wind and humidity, and measured well water and earth temperatures.  I've also helped my neighbor use his well pump to chill his floor, and collected water volume and temperature data to calculate BTUs.  I've also seriously studied direct ground source (63F year round at about 10 foot deep here) for the same cooling system.  My cooling needs are so infrequent and modest that I am reluctant to do it; my home only got to 80F for two days last summer, due to not being able to open up from wildfire smoke. 

In insulation, blown or sprayed attic insulation is often a bargain.  In an RE world, most inland locations should have requirements for R40 side walls and R70+ attics. Insulated foundation walls are also critical in many climates...heat DOES go down by convection!  We do a lot of dumb design like slab floors which touch the concrete foundation wall and then outside becomes concrete.  Or slabs which extend outside, exposed, at doors. That is a heat and cold wicking system like you can't believe as concrete is highly thermally conductive.  In my home, adding 4" of EPS foam board between slab edge and stem wall cut my modeled BTU requirement in half.  It was done with two 2 inch strips, one 8" tall, the other 16", and using 6" block for the upper stem wall coarse.  Peanuts in cost and not much effort either.

I used extra wide door sills to bridge over the 4 inches of foam which separates the slab from the stem wall.  Yes, doors are hell, thermally, as are windows.  To keep my total heat loss to 3 degrees F on winter nights (10-15F typical) I stuff the windows with Reflectrix-type material. That is a cheap way to have an R-8 window.   In my last home, I made folding insulating panels for glass patio doors and windows, with Astrofoil (aluminum faced bubble) material inserts.  In my current superinsulated home, I have only 1 outside door, and it leads to an small entry way that is an air lock and is kept about 8F cooler/warmer than the house.  The gas kitchen is in an outside corner of the house, is insulated (both walls and floor) from the house, is kept with cross-flow windows open all summer. Cooking does not heat the house, nor does the propane refrigerator.  The refrigerator heats the small gas kitchen adequately in the winter.  My 4' by 32' solar hot water panel and 800 gallon insulated storage tank heats the house in winter.  Last year I spent $50 on propane to run the backup propane water heaters from Dec. through Feb.  Most of that $50 is just stack loss for the cheap, no electronics,  low efficiency gas water heaters being on. 

I did the super insulation thing for my own benefit, for comfort and quiet, and to save operating costs.  I also wanted to leave an energy-responsible home behind when I'm gone for the long dirt nap.  I'm very, very pleased with the cost/benefit of super insulation.  It's like off grid PV-  once you do it you realize it was pretty easy and wish you'd done it long ago. 























Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on November 29, 2017, 06:45:44 AM
https://arena.gov.au/blog/energy-prices/

It seems that blaming RE for the huge Australian energy price hikes might not be the true story.  You've got a motherload of contributing factors...including enormous increases in  gas prices and corruption and manipulation by power and energy co.s and corruption of the power "regulatory" agencies (a problem here too).  Reminds me of what happened to some southern Californians after the big push to deregulate power in the US many years ago. (Nothing to do with RE.) Some folks bills quadrupled...energy co.s where playing games.

With just a bit better batteries, taking Sydney homes and small businesses off grid will be VERY popular unless gas prices can be stabilized. 



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on November 29, 2017, 07:36:30 AM
Hi Bruce,

Bloody FT - it's a pain in the proverbial. I don't subscribe to it, but for some reason it's let me view this story... normally it bumps me too.

Anyway, here's the text of the article:

Quote
ExxonMobil biofuel partnership makes oil from algae ‘breakthrough’
Collaboration with Craig Venter biotech doubles oil content to industrially useful level
 
"Algae can in principle produce seven times more energy per acre than corn-based ethanol, the main source of biofuel today"
JUNE 19, 2017 Clive Cookson, Science Editor

After eight years, a research collaboration between ExxonMobil and Synthetic Genomics to produce biofuels from algae has produced what the two US companies say is the first “breakthrough”.

Scientists at Synthetic Genomics, the biotech company founded by genomics pioneer Craig Venter, used advanced genetic engineering to double the oil content of their algal strain from 20 to 40 per cent, without inhibiting its growth. The findings are published in Nature Biotechnology on Monday.

“This key milestone in our advanced biofuels programme confirms our belief that algae can be incredibly productive as a renewable energy source without adverse impacts on climate, land and water,” said Vijay Swarup, vice-president for research and development at ExxonMobil, the US oil major. “Our work with Synthetic Genomics continues to be an important part of our broader research into lower-emission technologies to reduce the risk of climate change.”

The researchers identified a biological switch called ZnCys that regulates the conversion of carbon to oil in Nannochloropsis gaditana, an algal species that grows in seawater and is a leading candidate for biofuel production. Through genetic manipulation, they fine-tuned the process to double the proportion of lipid (oil) in the algal biomass.

Previous attempts to boost the oil concentration in algae — an important step in biofuel production — failed because the cells stopped growing when they were overloaded with lipid. The new genetic process maintains growth until 40 per cent of the biomass consists of lipid, an industrially useful level.

Although the energy industry has been investigating algae since the 1970s as a source of biodiesel to supplement petroleum-based fuels, the technical difficulties in developing fast-growing strains with a high oil content have proved far greater than the optimists imagined.

Several other companies abandoned the algal biofuel field but ExxonMobil and Synthetic Genomics, which originally announced a $600m 10-year partnership in 2009, have persevered. “We knew this research would take a long time,” said Mr Swarup. “We are pursuing a policy of aggressive patience.”

Algae can in principle produce seven times more energy per acre than corn-based ethanol, the main source of biofuel today. Other advantages include the ability of algae to grow in salt water and thrive in harsh environmental conditions — limiting the pressure on farmland and fresh water supplies. Algal oil could be processed in conventional refineries, producing fuel that can substitute directly for petrol or diesel.

But the technology is still several years from commercialisation. “More work needs to be done before algal biofuels can be scaled up from the lab to industrial production to compete with diesel at the pump,” said Oliver Fetzer, chief executive of Synthetic Genomics, which remains privately owned 12 years after its foundation

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on November 29, 2017, 07:41:24 AM
This link (http://biofuels-news.com/display_news/12197/biofuels_breakthrough_mechanism_behind_algae_oil_production_revealed/) should lead to an article about the Japanese research which I was thinking of; or at least, some more research from his team.

Please excuse the greenwash website... it was just the first link I happened to click...
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on November 29, 2017, 08:02:19 AM
Battery storage is the limiting factor with off grid. To build a cost effective system requires a big change for anyone used to an unlimited grid connection, and many cannot or will not make the compromises needed.

Storage requirement depends mainly on weather patterns. Electricity consumption needs to be factored around tomorrows and future sunshine hours.
Realistically, storage needs to adequately cover average non sunny periods... 1 day, 4 days, depending on location.
Storage can be dramatically reduced with a secondary immediate power source, ie diesel, to recharge batteries.

For us normal people, this is the best option, and is similar to the hydro/wind concept where one compliments the other.
Increasing daily useage , or living in a tropical environment increases the problem exponentially in cost.
This too is a function of battery "chemical efficiency" where around 30 percent of power replaced is lost in H/O production, ie gassing and other losses. Inverters are between 60 to 80 percent efficient depending on load.
Off  gridders learn this in the first  few days, usually the hard way.

Coupled to the requirement with lead acid to not too deeply cycle the bank for a reasonable life, the net efficiency is very poor, and is not appreciably improved with other battery technologies, other than the cycling can be deeper, ie with NiFe and Lithium for instance.
Here the cost per amp hour is similar, the actual physical size of the required storage is reduced, but the financial cost remains similar.  Even hydro, with the  line/distribution losses  equate to similar  low  efficiencies, but they can charge the consumer  for those.

PV may be getting cheaper, storage, despite economies of scale remains the same, or is slowly increasing. in cost, rare earth syndrome.

Those gridders who are contemplating cutting the ties, generally have no idea just how much effort every  home made kilowatt hour takes to make, store and carefully use, with an eye to that  rain cloud on the horizon.
It involves a close relationship with the power shed on almost a daily basis.... its almost like a marriage with a nagging wife, if ANYTHING is not quite right, you are gunna know real quick, and be punished..
Its easy to forget the huge infrastructure and the thousands of people who maintain the power supply from the grid, few contemplate this as they switch on the lights., and probably only a passing thought as they moan about the bill.
When generating your own, the responsibility of all this is now yours.
But, its fun.

I have many visitors asking me how they can do what I do.
Their big idea is only to save money.
I always tell them to go away and think about it, then get back to me.
They hardly ever do.
The passion just isnt there, they are just wasting my time.




Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on November 29, 2017, 12:24:55 PM
Oh my Gosh,

I decided to get my mind tested.  You folks chat on, will you? 

I've also decided to apologize for my cheap shots.  I'm not sure on the timetable but I'm very sure it's coming. 

Best wishes,

Casey


Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: oldgoat on November 29, 2017, 01:15:33 PM
Yes I remember how getting rid of the carbon tax here in Au was going to save us so much we would all be millionaires. Well I got a $6-00 refund from my electricity supplier who promptly jacked the price for service to my property by $8-00.  Net gain -$2-00 the price of my lpg never changed nor did the cost of steel and products by other energy intensive industries. The mining industry and others who were supposedly going down the drain because of this impost were able to find $30 million to finance the campaign to rescind the carbon tax legislation.
Getting rid of the carbon tax made absolutely no difference to my cost of living but probably improved the bottom line for large corporations.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on November 29, 2017, 05:36:13 PM
Disobedience Handbook. Sol Olinsk
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on November 29, 2017, 05:44:33 PM
Starfire- most of the newer 48V inverters are running at 94-98% efficiency; this is "marketing speak", since it is only the inverter loss and not battery and wiring, but still, your figures were much lower than what I'm familiar with in the Magnum Energy line, and every other 3KW+, 48V, name brand inverter I've seen.  At idle (no load), these inverters do eat some power and efficiency then sucks but in fair sized home systems it's negligible. They have come a long way and your figures are fair for some old systems. 12V systems did suffer badly from wiring battery resistance issues, also.

My own 120VDC 2nd prototype inverter checks out at 92% efficiency despite intentional slow, soft switching, (using less efficient transistors to handle that), and reworked, cheap stock toroidal transformers.  So I do tend to believe the published Magnum efficiency and the engineers who helped provide information on a filter project I was working on in a competent manner. They had to focus on efficiency at the expense of EMI because that is buyers and marketing types focus on. They couldn't dramatically reduce their emissions, but they knew just where and how to do it and shared that openly.  I like the best (10%) of humans,  they enjoy solving problems and sharing useful information.

I concur that battery ongoing replacement costs are the last hurdle for widespread off grid homes.  Most rural folks here new to off grid living seem to learn to moderate their consumption and timing of consumption pretty quickly after trashing their first set of batteries ($) in couple years.  Painfully expensive lessons seem to stick. Mostly, it's learning to be aware of weather, battery state of charge, and the impact of various appliances.  For suburban situations, a fuel cell system for charging batteries would be a marvelous backup that wouldn't pollute the air or make noise.

AdeV- Thanks for the text and link for the algae story. 40% oil for their strain is impressive but it's very frustrating that this RE field has been kept at the concept study/lab level for over 30 years.  No surprise that Exxon is very happy to keep it there while claiming RE innovation.  Every large city sewage treatment plant in the US except in the NE (likely too cold) could be making algae oil (this needs fresh water algae), plus in US there's the huge Salton Sea area, close enough to LA.  We need pilot plant data and experience...preferably publicly funded so it isn't all proprietary.  There are natural strains of algae with 30% oil, so I would say proceed there and get the systems sorted out.  You can always twiddle with strains for different environments later.  I wish we could establish a new civilian branch of DARPA and turn them loose.  A sustained, long term  R&D effort to develop and improve RE would reap huge benefits. 



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on November 29, 2017, 06:07:09 PM
glort is correct for 2012.

https://www.npr.org/2012/04/11/150444802/where-does-america-get-oil-you-may-be-surprised (https://www.npr.org/2012/04/11/150444802/where-does-america-get-oil-you-may-be-surprised)

We should be out of there any day now. 
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on November 29, 2017, 07:21:10 PM
Following up on AdeV's post on algae development, I found this small pilot project in S. Australia.  Only a couple acres of ponds.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/algae-oil-test-facility-launched-south-australia-25027/

Still looking for bigger projects.



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on November 29, 2017, 07:50:31 PM
Quote
ExxonMobil biofuel partnership makes oil from algae ‘breakthrough’
Collaboration with Craig Venter biotech doubles oil content to industrially useful level

The thing that always makes me suspicious of articles/ reports like that is when they specify percentages and not Qtys. Every time I have seen that and found the actual numbers, it's been a crock  that they have been trying to gloss over and hype up.

Algae makes X times more oil/ fuel than corn.
While since I looked into it but as I recall, corn is a pretty poor base stock to work from and the reality was it is only used to offset the subsidized over supply in the US. In other places they prefer higher yielding feed stocks like Sugar can and barley.  For oil it's Canola, sunflower and some beans.

What I want to know to put credibility on the research is how much Oil they are getting or think they can get per acre.
If they are getting 100L per acre, well it's pretty easy to work out that they will have to cover the oceans with algae to meet current oil demand alone and clearly the idea is not practical..... which is my guess on the situation.
To me, with out a specific yield number, all the talk of percentages is meaningless.

These people get paid to do research not to succeed in what they are doing.
I worked out years ago that to really have a hope in hell of offsetting fossil fuel world demand you are going to need something that produces about
 10,000L  of oil per acre to begin to be in the running.

Most people can't even begin to fathom the amount of oil we burn through a day on a global scale and that's what makes replacing oil such a big ask.

From the article: "The new genetic process maintains growth until 40 per cent of the biomass consists of lipid"; i.e. for every 350kg of mature(?) algae, the max harvest assuming no losses is around 140kg, or 1 barrel of oil (hehe, I wonder how that came out so handy  8)) .

Anyway, current(ish) consumption is estimated at around 35 billion barrels per year, so to completely replace oil with algal oil (assuming it's suitable for ALL oil products that we currently use, and that's glossed over completely in all the articles I've seen), that means maturing 12.25 billion tons of algae per year. That seems like quite an ask...

Fascinating article here from 2008 about why algae really isn't the second coming....: http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/04/algae-fuel-biof.html (http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/04/algae-fuel-biof.html) From one of my favourite sources too, a little bit greenwashy from time to time, but a lot of what he writes makes sense.

Also interesting that, on further googling, people are claiming anything up to 50% or even 70% oil by volume of biomass. Makes you wonder what the real story is...
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on November 29, 2017, 08:38:41 PM
Great "dose of reality" article, AdeV.  Thanks!  The author suggests PV and large scale energy conservation instead.  The latter seems about as easy to accomplish as population control.








Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on November 30, 2017, 04:13:28 PM
Thanks glort.  Canada, consider yourself warned by the agent in Australia.

Of course I'm still in favor of low impact and sustainable energy sources but even more frustrated and bewildered with our need to war. Profit is a formidable force.

Line crowding and staying alive are kind of different strategies.  So when my ancestors came to North America it was to stay alive and when the newbies arrive it's because they're line crowders.  If the answers were easy or simple they'd be answered.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on December 03, 2017, 08:52:10 PM
Starfire- most of the newer 48V inverters are running at 94-98% efficiency; this is "marketing speak", since it is only the inverter loss and not battery and wiring, but still, your figures were much lower than what I'm familiar with in the Magnum Energy line, and every other 3KW+, 48V, name brand inverter I've seen.  At idle (no load), these inverters do eat some power and efficiency then sucks but in fair sized home systems it's negligible. They have come a long way and your figures are fair for some old systems. 12V systems did suffer badly from wiring battery resistance issues, also.


Bruce, if you connect a DC wattmeter to input, AC wattmeter to the output of any inverter, over time, from days to weeks, you will see the real net efficiency of the inverter.  None will achieve that manufacturers rating.... ever.
The real life efficiency the average bloke will get is actually no where near that 94/97 they claim, 70/80 percent means its doing very well.
Inverters spend almost all their life running at a small part of their rated continuous loading, and can only achieve max efficiency  within a very small window.
Same with mechanical generating equipment where max efficiency is also achieved only near max output.


Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on December 03, 2017, 10:33:55 PM
I had the same impression myself, Starfire, but in looking at Magnum's MS-PAE series (48V) load vs efficiency chart, they have efficiency above 90% from 500 to 3500 watts.  Beyond that in the 80s.  It's pretty damned impressive.

See page 41 of the manual:

https://realgoods.com/downloads/dl/file/id/382/ms_pae_series_owner_s_manual.pdf

Their 24V model is  less efficient; 85-90% from 500 to 3500 watts.

I agree that these figures are high enough to raise credibility issues but my other experiences in working with Magnum engineers is that this an area where they are very proud of their work.  It would take very good toroidal magnetics design to achieve this. The low frequency design of the Magnum does help greatly with MOSFET switching losses.  That plus the newer MOFETs have amazingly reduced gate charge capacitance and incredibly low on resistance.

Below 500W the efficiency does drop precipitously; they don't show below 300 watts where it is only 70%...and likely for good cause(!).  So for low power use, even the best of 4KW inverters really do suck at conversion efficiency. (A smaller unit might be better at this.) This can't really be helped with a low frequency, transformer isolated design.  You'd almost have to have another unit with different magnetics for very low power, and switch between them as the load increased.






Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on December 03, 2017, 11:20:54 PM
My own 5 step sine inverter is loosely based on the early Trace SW series, low frequency design.  I've only tested it for efficiency (92%) at 500 watts so far, with two surplus 1100 watt toroidal transformers I had on hand which can easily handle a 1500 watt continuous load and 3500 watt peak (my design goal).

Just for kicks, I did some searching and found this efficiency curve from Trace. (see attachment)

No wonder the Trace SW series had such a good reputation...the low power performance is better than most made today.  This was a true low frequency design, not a hybrid.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on December 04, 2017, 01:35:17 AM
Yes, agree, that particular example is very good, above a minimum load.
Using their figures.
In "search" mode, the standby current is 6 watts, or around 800mA at the nominal 48 volts.
Inverter overhead when running is around the 25 watts.... this is the voltage sense, mosfet drivers, gate current etc
At a 500 watt AC load .... a  large lighting load using CFLs for an instance , 500/25 = 20 or   around 80 percent efficiency, Pf =1, ie resistive load.
At 1500 watts , efficiency climbs  to 1500/25, or close to their 90 percent.
With inductive or capacitive loads..... most given the proliferation of SMPS in almost all electronic devices, even including CFL lighting, the actual figures will be less, but close.
A period of low energy use, when sleeping for example, will see the lower efficiency over a longer time, perhaps say 8 hours in a 24 hr period. Higher cyclic loads during the day tend to be intermittent, refrigeration, microwave oven, kettle etc,  therefore the higher efficiency periods occurs at random and for shorter periods.
So, the 500 watts drain over the 8 hour period will use  4 kilowatts, and a further 200 watts in "waste"
If the inverter then runs another 16 hours cycled between heavy and light at say a 50 percent duty cycle, another 8 hours can easily be spent running light, giving almost a half kilowatt in wasted consumption total over that 24 hours.
This is why an  efficiency rating over time  is far more informative in real life than an absolute  "snapshot".figure.
I have always advocated using many smaller inverters for this reason, redundancy increases reliability, each inverter can be scaled to that one circuit, a large inverter that uses 20 watts overhead or more can then spent time either heavily loaded or not at all, where we can enjoy the lower 6 watts standby  mentioned above.
 Smaller inverters generally have less phantom overhead than larger types.... some as low as 50mA
This is all academic to many, but when off grid entirely, each watt costs from the battery bank and assumes greater value than an inferior cheaper version  downloaded from the national grid.
A battery watt effectively requires another 5 to store it, given battery cycling depth issues, and to replace that watt takes almost an extra  one  given generator and chemical conversion losses at the bank.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on December 04, 2017, 07:38:28 AM
Starfire, I think you had a Sr. moment.  25watts is included in the efficiency of 90% at 500 watts, and is half of the 10% total loss shown.  It's 25w/500w=0.05 or 5%.  Your point is made though, night time low power loads will affect total efficiency negatively.

Night time phantom loads are a serious problem for newbies to off grid living.  GFCI's, arc detecting breakers, washing machines and other electronics that are actually on when off, all contribute, all night long.  One contributor here calculated his actual phantom load for a large off grid system and it exceeded my actual winter night time power use (incandescent lighting and computer/projector).

The Magnum inverters (and I expect most other off grid inverter designs) see all reactive power needs as real load.  I confirmed this characteristic on my own low speed design inverter; purely capacitive loads do show up directly in DC input current.  This means filter design to minimize both differential capacitance and capacitance to ground (leakage) is critical; every single uF is another 50 ma of current.  A typical surplus facility filter may seriously impact the battery bank SOC overnight.  Genisco and RFI corp have both now have designs specific for home inverters at my request; they draw just 15 watts  instead of the 60 or 100 watts of their standard facility filter.

I feel that all the power system should not be in the house for directly radiated EMI and conducted EMI.  It's easier to just remote them in an outbuilding with batteries and PV nearby.  Then only one AC line to the home need be filtered and shielded. Distance is cheap compared to high performance shielding for the directly radiated emission of the inverter and PV charge controller.  For the absolute minimum health insurance, one of the Schaeffer 2 stage common mode choke filters (about $75) from Digikey or the equivalent seems wise to me. (Pick one with good insertion loss data, designed for switching power supplies.) The independent evidence that EMI on home wiring is a needless and serious health stressor grows every year.  The trend towards crappy, high EMI design switching power supplies in every appliance, lightbulb, etc., is a bad one, as is electronic variable speed motors.  The "modern" home is an EMF horror show.  Even refrigerators now get switching power supplies and digital readouts. An embedded microcontroller is so cheap now that anything with timing and sequencing needs or much logic gets one.  Appliances have been exempt from even the FCC's lax emission standards.

I like 120VDC best for home power...no inverter losses at all, no PF losses.  Also, good for me, zero ELF magnetic or electric fields for resistive loads.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on December 04, 2017, 09:42:51 AM
Bruce, its a pleasure to talk with you about this stuff, it seems you have far more experience than I do with the nuts and bolts of these.
I remember the very first inverter I made simply used a copper  commutator cobbled from water pipe, spun with a small 9 volt DC speed controlled tape deck motor, and four  brushes ratted from an old car generator, a mechanical bridge if you like.
This was a red necked  attempt at negating the transistor thermal runaway problems with Mullard OC35 germanium..... a fairly expensive component back then with abysmal specs looking back. and hard to parallel without  excessive losses in the required emitter resistors to force current sharing. The point 2 CE voltage drop was good though. I think they had an Ft something like 20Kc at 8 amps collector current, Hfe of maybe 10
Silicon and Mosfets came decades later
A bank of 10 x 12 volt batteries supplied the juice, and a hefty welder transformer primary winding used as a filter, protecting the brushes during overlap, and giving a fairly decent 230 volt sine.
The efficiency was pretty decent as well. Later, I remember using some special graphite/copper oxide brushes. These had very low axial conduction resistance, with higher resistance at 90 degrees to decrease intersegment losses... or so the advert reckoned. These were made by I think Radcliff in Australia, and did dramatically reduce sparking..

Sometimes I do wonder if this scheme is worth revisiting...... especially as a unmodified  Prius battery could slot straight in.
The voltage regulation was pretty good, with the output load  only ever being a very small part of the huge current reserves available, and it was SIMPLE, although it did require a starting proceedure for obvious reasons.
My recent DIY inverter uses IGBTs ,  ... project on hold until I can get these things to turn off faster. I have tried keeping them just above saturation, this causes losses in the added components , a negative gate current seems to have little effect... unlike sucking out hangers-on mobility carriers via a negative transistor base (NPN).
Basically it has overlap problems.... these  cost a fortune so reluctant to give in to using Mosfets  just yet.
Call me stubborn.

But then, arguably, why even bother with AC and forget any conversion at all. ?
Ninety percent of appliances, electronics, CFLs use a SMPS that happily runs off HV DC mains anyway. Washing machines, dryers, and other appliances no longer use AC motors, they now use steppers as you say, micro controlled and pulsed with lower voltages generated internally via their own internal  SMPS.
Another big efficiency saving right there......
It is almost possible to connect 10 or 20 x 12 volt  batteries straight into the house wiring via the existing switchboard with no other changes. Admittedly, the AC rated switches and circuit breakers may have a harder time, but Im pretty sure most everything will not notice any difference.
Vacuum cleaners, electric drills and skillsaws, grinders, cake mixers  and other lowtech stuff  predominantly use "universal" type brushed motors, and are also happy with DC.
The cost of the odd appliance that may object will adequately compensate for not having to buy an expensive inverter.


Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on December 04, 2017, 10:07:28 AM
A cunning thought here to extract free power from the grid.....
A high current bridge rectifier placed before the electricity meter would  run the house on DC without spinning the meter.....  the old analog meters used AC eddy currents to spin the disk, smart meters use AC current transformers to clock the A/D converter.. DC cannot effect either.
No meter tampering is needed, so nothing illegal there...... and the required wiring  to cut into is easily acsessable.... if done at the pole, you would be home free...
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: oldgoat on December 04, 2017, 11:15:29 AM
If done at the pole here in aust you would probably end up with a fine big enough to negate any savings. They are very sensitive about that here because you may be using it to grow small crops in the back shed.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on December 04, 2017, 11:43:30 AM
OG, you are right of course, Im just being difficult. Im fairly sure you would be noticed climbing a power pole in the dead of night, but then, if you wore a high vis vest, and had a white van with a bright yellow ladder, a few orange road cones and did it in the middle of the day...... I very much doubt anyone would suspect a thing.
There was the Masport factory here many years ago that had a major pilfering problem. The staff were searched after leaving each shift by security. One worker would always leave with a wheelbarrow full of sawdust for his garden, the guards would sift through it every time, and never find anything.
Years later they discovered he was stealing wheelbarrows.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on December 04, 2017, 07:08:04 PM
Quote
One worker would always leave with a wheelbarrow full of sawdust for his garden, the guards would sift through it every time, and never find anything.
Years later they discovered he was stealing wheelbarrows.

That made me laugh out loud! Thanks!

Agree about using a white van, cones, hi-viz everything. Also, if you keep a Health & Safety questionnaire on a clipboard nearby just in case anyone does come nosing, they'll soon scarper. For Health & Safety, feel free to swap your local organisation, e.g. OSHA, Elfen Safety, etc.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on December 04, 2017, 08:47:48 PM
Starfire, yes,  the essential nature of AC power in the home has dwindled.  Most of the large (computer) server farms have gone to direct 350V DC distribution instead of the 230VAC, since it is directly compatible with the computer power supplies and eliminates inverters entirely.

For home use, 120VDC is quite handy and has 4x the inherent safety of 120VAC. A shock feels more like a static discharge; surprising but not painful. I use various sized crock pots (no mods), a 300W rice cooker (modified), a 600 W small toaster oven, an old clothes iron (no mods), 300 W immersion heater for tea (no mods), coffee grinder (no mods), food processor (no mods), blender (no mods but I use the plug instead of switch),  Hair dryers and heat guns work fine, though I use the plug instead of the switch, with switch taped on to save me from my regular Sr. moments.  With the advent of the IXYS 200V+ P-channel Mosfets for high side switching, when modification is required, it is as simple as can be.  Fancy gate driving is not required for the simplest appliances that have no electronics, since some HV mosfets can now handle a very slow switch and even linear operation when needed.  A 10K ohm resistor to high side from gate, and 100K ohm to neutral (using the existing switching via bimetal thermostat switch or other timers or switches) does the trick nicely for my toaster oven/broiler.  Low side Mosfets are now also available that have a well defined safe operating area for linear/semi-linear/very slow switching. Fairchild has well priced ones.  Better to spend a couple bucks more on the switching transistor and save yourself a bunch of complicated circuitry.

Switching off DC power that doesn't pulse like brushed universal motors is problematic.  DC will nicely span via arc quite a large gap when a fair amount of current and voltage is involved...in testing with a 500 watt test load I fried many heavy duty AC switches on the very first "off". (I did find one DPDT wall switch that holds up well.)  Cooper made 150VDC rated wall switches but they are now out of production.  Fortunately, Leviton and others still make rotary lamp switches that were originally designed for DC and still work nicely, as do normal lamp switches and even the rotary cord switches; they have not bothered to change the design for AC. For higher currents the Midnight Solar DC breakers can be used and are rated for switching use.  Or you can use any puny toggle switch and one of the big SOA Mosfets.

You can do serious work with 120VDC with quite reasonable currents.  So low current that battery efficiency is much improved and wire losses nil.  Edison was no fool.  110/120V was and is a good compromise for safety and utility in the home, even over 100 years later.

 


 

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on December 05, 2017, 01:53:52 AM
Are you saying you are incorporating Mosfet switching into  these appliances to switch them on and off?
My answer to using AC switch  contacts with DC is simply a reversed diode attached directly across the contacts.  Inductive loads are the problem here, and the non quenched arc can/will weld contacts together very quickly. Once done, they are never a problem. Circuit breakers are even easier as the connections are more accessible.
Not having any grid connection means that NZ legislative practice can largely be ignored and common sense prevails. This saves a huge amount of time and money too.  God help anyone using these back on any AC circuit, would cause much head scratching.....
The main problem using 120/240 VDC direct from battery banks is fire safety, like short circuit current will easily exceed almost any  wire gauge rating, so good reliable fusing is VERY important.
A handy and cheap way to current limit is to use strips of stainless steel in series with the battery source.,  stainless is a poor but stable conductor. I use this idea when welding with batteries also.
Electrolysis too can be a problem in damp climates, I have that problem here at times.
I didnt know DC is becoming more popular, thats very interesting.
AC was and is the go for distribution, easy passive voltage conversion etc, but certainly of limited advantage when source and user are only meters apart.
All your appliances mentioned will happily run on DC.... this does little with your RFI//EMI concerns though, given the SMPS inherent in most electronic stuff.
Most of my entertainment electronics stuff runs off DC  12 volts, TV, radio,  stereo etc having removed the internal SMPSs and substituting a LVDC daughter board.
Lighting is 240 VDC CFLs, to reduce RFI, running off a DIY inverter, and the main 240 VAC 600w sine inverter runs the electronic workshop, as my sig gens, scopes etc use linear power supplies to prevent any RFI from that source.
Its messy using several voltage busses, but works well in practice..

It will be very confusing and possibly expensive mistakes for whoever inherits this place when I die......

I always hoped the Vacuum cleaner door to door  salesman would turn up, spread the sawdust and ash all over my carpets and rugs, and then attempt  to suck it all back up with a machine that wont work on 12 volts......
All I get are Jehovah bloody witnesses, so focused on the end times they care little about the here and now, and are bored shitless with all things Lister, solar and electric.... thats how I get rid of them.


Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on December 05, 2017, 04:00:43 AM
And, health and safety..... we call it OSH.
Curiously, if  say, I paint your house for money, here in NZ, I need to fill out many forms, undertake a risk management assesment, use scaffolding too, are not permitted to paint off a ladder. Checks for lead paint and asbestos, electrical overhead line issues and other hazards.
If I paint my own house, none of this is required.
This seems to mean that falling off a ladder is unlikely if its here, but not there.
Or, my safety/life is worth less if Im home.
Or, gravity is less in my location, more at  yours.
Perhaps my ground is softer.
There is always a good side to this beaurocratic nonsense.
By having a sign designating your home as an industrial site or work area, immediately negates any implied right of access by anyone. They are required to report to the "site manager" before entering the property, and submit to any protective gear and safety restrictions deemed necessary, and have all known, and unknown dangers pointed out. This process can take considerable time. .... ;)
For those like me that have say, unpermitted buildings, illegal mains wiring, illegal quantities of stored toxic chemicals and fuel, etc many sins can be "corrected" or hidden before entry actually takes place.
Usually it turns out that the initial importance and critical nature of the inspection turns into accepting a verbal assurance that everything is fine.... its only a job to them after all, with bigger fishes to fry....they are also vastly under resourced.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on December 05, 2017, 04:28:29 AM
Starfire, I'll  try your diode method on an AC switch tomorrow and see what happens with a 500 watt incandescent heat lamp load. I do use that commonly for 12V solenoids and relays, but didn't think to try it for 120VDC lamps. I'll let you know how it works out.  I

DC rated switches and relays often use a permanent magnet to stretch the arc to extinguish it, along with a snap action and larger open throw of the contacts.  Electric trolleys in Denmark use compressed air to blow out the arc! 

Midnight Solar has DC rated breakers for 150 and 300V.  I use those, plus a DC rated fuse right at the batteries, for as you suggested, an extremely high current short can possibly weld breakers.  The fuses are sold for high voltage PV systems and are fully rated for DC operation.  DC Breakers and fuses are readily available and fairly cheap here; single 150VDC breakers about $10 US, so I have no need to mess about.

Yes, you're right in that DC instead of AC does nothing special for the EMI from switching power supplies (or any other sources), with the big exception that there is zero power loss penalty for capacitance in passive filters.  That is a huge help.

Like you, I find 12VDC very convenient for low power DC use.  I distribute 12VDC for my home and other shop controls such as Lister controls, solar hot water and heating system and circ pumps, etc.  I use glass and plastic fiber for all control signals to/from the home.  I don't have ANY switching supplies (or any electronics gadgets) in the home at all.  My rear projection workstation is powered via switching supplies in a steel pedestal outdoors. The supply is heavily filtered, but there is also a surplus -110dB from 10K-4GHz military grade facility filter for house 120VDC and another for the 12VDC.  The LED light source "pocket projector" is in a shielded enclosure; a welded 21" cube of steel, honeycomb vents, ITO glass. The projection "booth"/shed is outside the house shield envelope.  Keyboard and trackball are powered from the house 12V, but they are both custom designed;  actively strobed keyboards and unshielded processors are a show stopper for me. Audio is limited to a single plastic fiber controlled speaker, 12V powered, as my audio processing is so screwed up I can't enjoy music any more.  All home wiring is in EMT steel conduit with compression fittings, also.  My home is designed as a shield room and provides a measured -110dB reduction (-55 dBm power) at 2.4Ghz.  It's much more shielding than I needed to sleep OK here now (peak levels below -70dBm seems to do the trick and it's about -62dBm outside now) but it was an experiment to see what could be done, practically, and insurance against new cell towers and MM wave cellular back links.  The 50 thread per inch stainless steel screens outside the windows is the only thing that shows as slightly unusual looking.

I did develop successfully a very simple ultra low EMI 60-100Hz switching supply (a push pull center tapped toroidal primary with stock small toroidal transformers intended for AC use) for 120V DC to DC conversion.  By using super slow op amps (30K bandwidth) and switching on/off time in the 50 usec range, only the diode noise in the DC rectification is an EMI issue, and it can be snubbed and filtered into submission.  There is some stray ELF magnetic field from the toroids for transformer and critical DC filtering inductance, but conducted emissions are virtually non-existent.   A disappointment is the lack of QC for the Talema brand toroids; the two sets of 115V primary windings can be off by a few turns so testing and tweaking of a few ohms resistance in the higher turns winding is needed so that I can use the stock transformers.  I don't like winding toroids when there are hundreds of turns!  This isolated supply design is intended for use with a low dropout linear regulator to remove ripple. I haven't messed with some regulation of output voltage via PWM with this simple op amp/comparator oscillator based design yet, step down is purely transformer turns ratio.  Adding a microcontroller adds so much complexity in shielding and filtering that I avoided it.  In my inverter design I did add a shielded and filtered AVR (Arduino) controller.  It's the simple way to do fancy logic and timing, RMS voltage calculation and allow adjustable dead time and delays as needed with minimal circuitry.

I'd like to experiment with a low frequency, ultra low EMI buck converter with a gapped tape wound toroid for the main conversion DC choke, running at a few hundred Hz but my project wings have been clipped, health-wise, lately.  My project backlog runneth over.



 





Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on December 05, 2017, 05:14:23 AM
Bloody hell Bruce, can I suggest you live in a steel shipping container with chain mail vest and matching pants? Talk about the ultimate Faraday cage...... Why your concerns on RFI/EMI?
 If you are having welded contacts with resistive loads, I would think its current overload, rather than arcing?
The diode actually shorts out the reverse EMF from an inductance, preventing the arc from starting, I cant see a diode helping with resistive loads, maybe a capacitor here will work better? The old car distributor ignition type caps were handy for this, but getting hard to find now, their construction made them super reliable. A mains rated z/y cap will  do ok too. Just to soak up the opening spark that initiates the arc as the contacts open.  I have also seen a Triac in series, the gate connected to M1, the Triac turns off as the switch opens preventing arcing.  Any arcing is of an AC nature that will eventually turn the triac off, like in milliseconds.... I think its rude and inelegant, and have never tried that one.
Whatever, but ll be keen to know your results
The rest relating to your electronics stuff I cannot comprehend, its far tooooo modern for me.... I still struggle with my Sony MP3 player.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on December 05, 2017, 06:38:52 AM
To answer your question, Starfire, yes, where an appliance such as a toaster/broiler would normally switch power through a timer, element selector switch and oven temperature bimetal switch, none of those contacts were designed for DC so I rewire the appliance to use Mosfets to control the elements (a TO-22O transistor for each element) and use the stock switches/thermostat to control the gate of the transistor only.  I bolt the transistors to a piece of aluminum sheet and/or on the inside of the metal case to act as a heatsink...not much heat is generated due to the low on resistance.

It is one thing to do some modest 12V current switching with AC switches and another entirely to switch several amps of 120 VDC.  AC designed Bimetal switches used for burners and heating elements will arc and be destroyed the first time they open. Many AC switches only work for 120 VDC when the current draw is pulsed as it is with some universal motors.  The DC arc will quench when the current drops...so this is in effect really an AC application.  Both current and voltage affect arc length when open contacts. 

Since a $3 TO-220 package 200V MOSFET can handle most typical appliance currents I don't find this DC switching issue a big problem.

Arcing at DC contacts used to be well known and commonly handled. I expect more switches will be available as higher voltage DC continues to grow. 

I am concerned about RFI/EMI for myself because it profoundly affects my brain function and health.  Short term affects are profound confusion, fatigue or "wired" and pressure headache progressing to complex partial seizures.  Because of temporal lobe involvement, it is very unpleasant.  It's frequency dependant in that some EMI sources will be immediately debilitating whereas others will only gradually made me more and more confused and "glitchy". I did have well documented absence seizures regularly prior to my home EMF cleanup years ago, but no longer do.  I have had MS and epilepsy for 29 years. The rapid MS progression (and excruciating headaches at the base of the skull which I can to learn was associated with rapid new lesions in MRIs) was halted by ELF magnetic field home cleanup and avoidance. I was left with  the old damage but got a new chance at some sort of life. It's not easy but I am very grateful for the relative independence and freedom I have, at least in my home environment.

Two weeks ago I went to town and got a 10 day MS and autoimmune thyroid disease flare up from a 40 minute rural drive to and 25 minutes in a grocery store. When I'm doing better, I might recover in 4 days.  I take medication to be able to drive safely.  It's very limiting and frustrating.  Frustrating because most of the problems (except wireless communications) are totally avoidable and correctable.

 My adverse reaction to a cell phone has been recorded via EEG by a neurologist, and all my evoked potential and QEEG/EEG test results are abnormal as measured next to a computer in a relatively low EMF medical office with florescent lights off.

There's an article about my home written by a Danish guy at the url below.

http://www.eiwellspring.org/emc/HighlyShieldedHouse.htm


 






Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on December 05, 2017, 07:10:52 AM
Bruce, I have never ever heard of this malady, ever. 
I cant help thinking of my early days as a radar tech, on cold days we would remove the motor drive brushes, short the SCRs that pulsed the magnetron  and stand in front of the wave guides to keep warm!!
We never knew about sterility, cataracts or anything like that.
After reading your article, Id say I had a close call.
Is your situation stable, or likely to worsen?
The absorber for microwave energy is graphite, perhaps a powder could be mixed into paint, next time you redecorate?
Im assuming too, that lower frequencies are worse? And what about stationary magnetic fields?
Im also wondering if a DPST switch could have it contacts wired in series. This would make it harder for an arc to establish itself as its unlikely both contacts would open exactly at the same time.
Many years ago, I was fascinated by a mercury vapour "ignitron", a huge vacuum device  that converted 40KV DC to 50Hz AC, at several hundred amps....serious stuff.
I believe it functioned by cyclically firing each anode, these arranged in a circle, this immediately was extinguished by the next one, and so on.  I got a very bad case of sunburn watching this.....
Wiring switch contacts in series  may work similarly, one contact opens, initiating a small arc, and very soon after, the second opening contact would extinguish it?
May also be worth a try.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on December 05, 2017, 11:22:53 AM
You can get some very high power MOSFETs these days; even ones which switch at logic levels (5v), e.g. http://uk.farnell.com/infineon/irlp3034pbf/mosfet-n-ch-40v-327a-to-247ac/dp/1758306 - 327amps continuous at 40v, although I'm guessing you'd want a fairly hefty heatsink on that...
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on December 05, 2017, 11:49:23 AM
Loads... (http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&categoryId=700000043507&sf=731,502&pf=110022476,110058377,110048148,110022496,110096769,110199177,110101080,110047307,110080899,110022473,110079876,110022457,110114591,110007520,110037495,110037401,110100067,110037446,110022468,110053033,110070876,110105560,110099572,110037408,110111681,110022471,110037533,110114930,110037488,110037949,110067188,110049524,110022469,110067928,111889407,110085061,110090625,110062652,110174022,110203560,110148318,110148364,110126879)
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on December 05, 2017, 11:58:56 AM
This one (http://uk.farnell.com/vishay/sihg460b-ge3/mosfet-n-ch-500v-20a-to-247ac/dp/2283617) is the cheapest, but it's got quite a high "on" resistance (0.2 ohm), so I'd not recommend it personally.

Note all my links are Farnell because that's who I tend to order from; you might find Digikey or Mouser (or a local Australian electronics supplier) cheaper/more practical than Farnell.

This (http://uk.farnell.com/infineon/irfp4229pbf/mosfet-n-250v-to-247ac/dp/1436964) might be a better part for you; 0.038ohm ON resistance, 44A @ 300V, it's not logic level though, so you'd want a 10v supply & another transistor to switch it from a microprocessor. Also it looks like it needs a minimum voltage of 250, if I read the datasheet correctly...
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on December 05, 2017, 05:13:56 PM
A warning about using MOFETs:

You must read up on Mosfets and their gate drive in order to use them as switches.  The ones with very low on resistance  and thus high current ratings MUST be switched on and off very quickly.  The gate is voltage controlled but has capacitance to be overcome when switching quickly.  Thus you will find "gate driver" chips which will provide a very brief current of 6A to overcome that gate capacitance quickly.  This is the easiest way to do it; use an integrated circuit gate driver chip, preferably with an opto-isolator.  Then your control signal need only light the little internal LED at about 8 milliamps of current, and the gate driver will bang on the Mosfet gate for you.  You must be a bit smart about circuit layout and such as well. 

Mosfets do bite back on those not familar with them.  EMI and ringing voltage the gate can cause exploding Mosfets.  Brief banging of 6 amps of current is in itself a major source of EMI. Application notes for gate driver ICs are useful and should be followed.  There are plenty of design notes online by MOSFET manufacturers also.

Glort, if you will give me the specific application, I can make you an example circuit for a high voltage, moderate current MOSFET control.  It is much simpler to do "low side" (switching the ground instead of the high side or positive voltage leg).  You need a 12VDC supply relative to ground to operate the MOSFET which is being used as a low side switch.  You will need a mosfet which is considerably higher in voltage than the voltage you intend to switch to allow for inductive surge in voltage on switching off the current.  Opto-isolation is a good idea for less problems with EMI, glitching and other EMC ("glitching and interference") related problems, in general you should not connect a high voltage, high power MOSFET to a distant logic level signal by wire.

Besides MOSFETs, there are IGBT transistors and modules for high voltages and currents.  IGBT's have the same gate structures as MOSFETs with the same driver requirements, but use bipolar power transistors.


Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on December 05, 2017, 07:45:14 PM
Tin foil hats are still the domain of the delusional; the degree of shielding to the brain , brain stem and nervous system as a whole is minimal.  I find that large changes are needed to feel a difference from a problematic EMI source; 30dB of change is just noticeable as an improvement, 60dB feels much better, 90dB and I can't notice it at all or have very long latency. So typical simple commercial level fixes (<30dB) are not usually worth the effort and I've been forced to design from scratch for low EMI.  ELF magnetic fields totally penetrate the body and can't be shielded to a high degree without multiple layers of silicon steel, aka electrical steel or high nickel alloys such as mu metal. For ELF magnetic fields I also found that small changes didn't matter-  but orders of magnitude (+/- x10) do. 

Electrical Sensitivity has been around for quite a while and the industrial liability misinformation campaign has been highly effective.  It has been well proven as a physiological problem by Marino. 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21793784

Marino did what any respectable, competent, unbiased researcher would do- he talked to the person (a woman physician with ES), tested the person for frequencies  that they reacted to without much latency and without serious health repercussions and fairly short recovery time.  He then ran the controlled double blinded testing using these frequencies to prove that this was a physiological phenomena for this patient.  This obviously was quite a project and a small fortune (and a lot of misery) was spent to prove this conclusively for this one patient.   

This does not prevent industry from cranking up their cigarette science media campaign.  For example, one utterly bogus study widely publicized in the media used a cell phone on but at low transmission power (-30dB lower) for the "sham" exposure, in a medical office building with multiple WIFI sources, and undocumented and uncontrolled (!) background cellular and radio/TV/wireless levels.  The fact that the placebo or sham had the cell phone on at a lower power was not in the published report or in any media reports.  Almost anyone serious ES would never be able to immediately detect on/off reliably in that situation.   Just the EMI from the DC to DC level converter in the phone and it's processor and display emissions would be enough to have them all miserable, and it did.  Then top it off, statistics were used to invalidate the one or two who were able to detect the difference in transmitted power levels.

There is no doubt that some people with or without physiological ES will have or develop learned, phobic behaviors, obsessions, anxiety, etc. It is the nature of the brains of all mammals.  It is also sadly the nature of humans to ridicule, discredit and attack anyone different or with a problem outside their own personal experience.  Attacking others seems to help people deal with their fears or feel better about themselves.

Glort or Starfire asked about my car-
I have a 1985 MB 300D (the last year of mechanically injected diesels) which I modified about 20 years ago with a PV panel on the roof to charge the battery so the alternator could be left off.  I degaussed the steel belted tires and drive chain, and removed most electronics including the tachometer, radio, motorized antenna, environmental control, cruise control.  The car itself is below 0.010 milligaus at highways speeds on a fairly smooth road, and the wiring harness has no measurable EMI and is totally quiet on an AM radio held right on the harness or battery cables with engine running.  This car got me back a lot more freedom for many years until the cell tower situation even in rural areas got so out of hand.  Now I'm back on a short leash. After driving by 6-8 cell towers, and 20 minutes of driving alongside WYE power lines, I'm at my limit for fairly safe driving.




 










Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on December 05, 2017, 11:00:14 PM
Glort-
Here's a good example of a opto-isolated gate driver, in a dip IC, 8 pin, that is moderate in drive capability and only a couple bucks.  I picked it is the data sheet less cryptic than some others.  It's a $4.80 part.  Similar parts with 2.5 amps drive are about $2.70 at Digikey in the US. The magic search words are opto gate driver.

ACNW3410 
https://docs.broadcom.com/docs/pub-005667

It requires 8-9 ma of drive current for the opto led to turn it on.  It's a 3 amp peak driver, as I recall.  The  on or off signal can be slow, and is current not voltage so it solves a lot of glitch problems plus is suitable for high voltage and high current switching since the gate drive is fairly substantial.  One of these, your power MOSFET, some capacitors, a 12 or 15VDC supply plus a 1 ohm resistor to the gate and you're done making your basic solid state DC power switch.  There are some 4.5 and 5 amp drivers in dip packages also.  Less selection in dip packages (through hole) these days.

How hard you must drive the gate depends on the MOSFET and application voltage and current, and how often you are switching it.

In modest current appliance switches,  I cheat with Mosfets that are rated for very slow switching, since I don't conveniently have 12 power (could but don't want to bother) and thus don't want to use a gate driver.  Instead I cheat.  I can pull the gate up with 100K ohms to 120VDC for "on" and a 10K resistor to the low rail (always connected) will make the off and just 12V via the resistor voltage divider at the gate for "on".  The on switch time will be quite slow, perhaps 100 usecs, ballpark.  That must fall will within the safe operating area (SOA) specified on the data sheet for the MOSFET to use this cheat.

If I was switching PV power directly, I'd use an opto gate driver IC like the above, and I'd add some caps on the PV power to reduce potential glitches, and add an 18V zener diode to protect the gate from pv power spikes.  A TVSS (transient voltage surge suppressor- a fancy type of zener diode) on the pv power line wouldn't be a bad insurance for a few bucks. 











Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on December 05, 2017, 11:54:36 PM
Shielding of car windows can be done with metalized window film.  For around 1 GHz this can provide a modest -20dBm (power) or -40dB voltage reduction. Alas, for cellular, vertical cracks and gaps due to window and door gaskets will limit such shielding to half that or less, and it requires cutting some red tape to use it on the front window.  I didn't feel it was worth the effort and expense for an improvement I am not likely to notice much.   

I have to admit that on a bad day I find that people's boundless need to talk, text and tweet wirelessly everywhere at the expense of my freedom pisses me off. 

This is a CEO of a large company in the UK that has gone public about his ES. He has a moderate case and so far is coping fairly well but notice the open curtains and the overhead florescent lights off.  Some with ES develop MS or Parkinsons.  Spect scans are significantly abnormal for those with ES- the functional images provided by Spect scans look like that of a closed head brain injury (big black areas of no activity) and the patients have the same problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4DKNs0G2kU

For your home cellular signal problem I suggest that any wired services are much healthier.  Putting a cellular repeater in the home is recipe for chronic health problems, as is WIFI.  Cat5 cable is cheap and easy to install.  Most critical is to turn the damn stuff off at night; sleep impacts have been noted in many studies.  Where there is only wireless service, the "Home Phone Connect" or phone plus internet via wireless devices can have their WIFI turned off and can drive POTS compatible cable so conventional phones can be use anywhere in the house plus ethernet cable for internet.  If a directional external antenna is used and oriented relative to the nearby tower to minimize radiation in the home, this can work out fairly well.  Just my 2 cents worth, hate to see you or your family have health problems when simple alternatives are available.








Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: oldgoat on December 06, 2017, 12:59:23 PM

I think brain tumors ( and tattoo removal) are going to be huge growth industries in the future with the younger generations in 30 years.
 
Probably not I worked on ABC transmitters for years (50 Kw-612Kcs) doesn seem to have affected me at all and none of my old workmates have been afflicted by brain tumours so far. Lots of other things but I don't think HF radio caused arthritis or any of my other ailments.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on December 06, 2017, 04:26:11 PM
Oldgoat, regarding your experience,
"Probably not I worked on ABC transmitters for years (50 Kw-612Kcs) doesn seem to have affected me at all and none of my old workmates have been afflicted by brain tumours so far. Lots of other things but I don't think HF radio caused arthritis or any of my other ailments."

620KHz is not a microwave...not even in the far neighborhood.  I personally worked with one of the most brilliant software engineers I ever met who had been a Navy radar tech, as had his brother.  Both died leaving young children fatherless from aggressive brain tumor, and his last couple years after surgery and radiation where a horror story.

The incidence of brain tumors from cell phone use is very slow in developing, a moderate increase and is only one small part of the health risk.  The effects on cell wall ion transport, for example, will more likely show up systemically as an increase in general health problems - the specifics determined by your family genetics. The effects on blood brain barrier may result in increased tendency for neurological impairment and degenerative diseases. The same is true for toxic exposures...you get to watch as every health problem in your family tree plays out, most being what are now known as chronic autoimmune diseases.  So it is likely that arthritis, heart disease and any other common autoimmune diseases in your family tree will be activated by continued EMF exposure.  Building/home wiring EMI, when bad, is also thought by some to be a pretty strong cancer growth stimulant and has been linked to some school cancer clusters by Milham (epidemiologist MD).

The genetics and epigenetics lottery is such that it is easy to find someone who has, for example, smoked 3 packs of cigarettes a day for 70 years and died at 90 in his sleep.  This  sort of occurrence has not a lot to do with public health and yet kept a lot of people smoking and dying horrible deaths for many years.

The biggest payoff is for reducing EMF exposures (EMI, ELF magnetic fields, and radio/microwave) in the bedroom, where your "CPU" rests and recovers each night.  EMI on home wiring is easily located via AM radio (the old Radio Shack 12-467 or Sony ICF-S10MK2) and flipping off circuit breakers to locate the offender, and one meter by Cornet does the other two fairly well.  Reducing your night time EMF exposure is the best bargain in health insurance around. The most common problems are easily solved and are within the realm of the handy DIY'er.


Bravo on your roof hookup, Glort.  I have the same problem with spacial planning now-  have to built it 3 times to get it right, can't foresee the problems.  I resort to mock ups when I can, but that only reduces the first round of revision.

Regarding your dislike of fluorescent lights; likely possibilities include light spectrum and EMF.

The light spectrum is very unnatural, big spikes at some colors, nothing like natural light or incandescent or halogen which is full and broad in spectrum.

https://www.comsol.com/blogs/calculating-the-emission-spectra-from-common-light-sources/

LED lights are also fluorescent lights (dab of phosphor over a UV LED) with the same problem.   

EMFs:
Fluorescent lights are now typically driven with a 100KHz high voltage square wave; an arc is started and topped through the mercury vapor at that rate.  The emissions of an arc are broad spectrum, so we have a 100KHz pulsed broadband emission. It is a tremendous source of radiating emissions, both directly and from the attached wiring. The older transfomer type ballast lamps had the broad spectrum EMI pulses at 60Hz.  You can confirm this with the aforementioned AM radio held near the lamps.  The idea that we expect young school children sit under these all day, and then give them methamphetamine when they can't stand it, makes me angry. 

I think parents should be screaming at their school boards for daylighting of classrooms, and pulling out wireless from schools.  Karl Riley's work on school EMFs is worth a good look as well.







Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on December 06, 2017, 07:17:07 PM
Some LED lights are getting pretty good with spectral distribution - e.g. Cree make some "daylight white" COBs which have a very decent red & blue distribution (still a bit cranky on the green) - this makes them ideal for certain plant-based activities (I'm told).

I've heard of a few people who are EMF sensitive, but I think most of us are pretty robust against it. Microwave radiation, at the milliwatt level (and that's right next to your router) will have insignificant effects on most people. Look how long it takes an 800 watt microwave oven to boil a pint of water - and that's 1000s of times more powerful than a typical WiFi hub/router, which is why the tiny amount of leakage from a microwave can easily knock out your wireless internet while it's on. Even a phone glued to your ear isn't going to have a noticable effect on most people - and if your ear gets hot, it's more likely the battery warming up than the radiation cooking your earlobe...

Obviously, if you are sensitive to this sort of radiation, then you're in a world of misery & it's only going to get worse.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Nonni on December 06, 2017, 08:29:49 PM
solar power is now a day a best option and also in trend…it is quiet costly but one time investment…i live in hostel..and they plant solar plates..n we are happy with that…
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on December 06, 2017, 09:32:19 PM
Adev-  The old thermal model of radiation being safe unless it literally cooks you (the insane "microwaved hot dog theory") has been widely disproven.  That is NOT the mechanism by which cell function in living organisms is affected.  Industry promotes this myth since it allows very high peak levels which are handy for digital communications. 

Plenty of researchers and doctors around the world are concerned.

www.bioinitiative.org

As for human robustness to microwaves...if you check with a fair group of friends of all ages you'll find few that don't have a collection of chronic, typically autoimmune related health issues.  Commonly, your doctor might tell you it's "stress".  I agree, but the stressor may likely be environmental and perhaps EMF. How would you know without checking? But obviously, I'm biased.  I think that EMFs that can be simply and readily avoided should be. 





Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: oldgoat on December 07, 2017, 03:48:34 PM
They were much lower requency than a mobile but the Radiated power was high much more than the 4 watts from a mobile towerb (50 Kw) for the local stations and (12Kw) for the 2 short wave aerials In those days they ran for 19 hrs a day. The favourite trick to impress the young trainees was to give them a fluorescent tube and watch their faces as it lit up from the radiation we would also earth the guy wires on the tower and draw an arc and they were most impressed to hear the programme playing over the arc
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Nonni on December 12, 2017, 11:09:24 AM
This is all certainly interesting, but it's hard for me to understand. I heard the opinion from my friends and read many articles about the advantages of water heaters (if you would be interested one of them https://www.newtanklesswaterheaters.com/7-myths-tankless-water-heaters-need-stop-believing/). I'm interested in how much battery power and what do I need to connect tankless water heater, and not worry about the electricity bill....
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on December 12, 2017, 05:02:53 PM
They're talking about gas-fired combi boilers. Solar panels might run the igniter and the pump, but it won't replace the gas....

To run an "instant" electric shower you need between 7.5 and 10.5 kW at around 230V~; that's a 40-45amp breaker, if your PV battery setup is at 48 volts, you're looking at supplying a constant 200amps to run your shower. That's pretty meaty, and I'm not entirely sure there's an inverter built to cope with that, and you'll need a beast of a battery bank to power it...

Nah - if you're going off-grid with solar, you're FAR better off heating a big tank of hot water using direct solar energy, rather than making electricity then using that to heat the water. Then simply mix with hot & cold under gravity (or pump) for your actual shower. Or use the "bush shower" idea that Mike showed in another thread.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on December 12, 2017, 05:53:25 PM
Try builditsolar.com to get better educated on solar hot water. 

On demand gas h/w for a backup to solar is reasonable, if your water mineral content is suitable. On demand uses lots of surface area of fine tubing to quickly transfer a LOT of BTUs to the water.  This small tubing is vulnerable to scale and mineral build up so it's a bad choice for some water sources.  The flow sensing to turn on the gas and flow/temp gas regulation has also been failure prone on some models for some water sources.

So depending on the unit and water mineral situation, on-demand can be a far cry from the reliability of the old electronics-free tank with pilot and burner, with it's inherent low efficiency (about 60%) due to stack heat loss. (Vent stack inside tank creates thermosiphon of air to cool tank 24/7.)

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: basewindow on December 12, 2017, 09:04:56 PM
I've had an 'Off Grid' place for a good few years now,  being there 3 days a week, four back at home (still have to work unfortunately). Its only a small place with one bathroom with shower and bath and sink, small kitchen, small laundry. So a total of 4 hot taps. I had the same dilemma when installing hot water. After much consideration i ended up going with an propane (LPG) on demand unit. I used a Bosch Hydro Power 16 for several reasons.

Pros: Reasonably cheap to purchase(compared to other models/brands), easy to install and maintain, quite efficient on gas(over tank and pilot based system), requires no extrnal elecricity to run. Instant* hot water (after about 20 seconds of cold)
Cons: Takes some getting used to in operation, one part is prone to failure and expensive to replace, as the units are not manufactured and used to the same degree as the normal grid connected units, parts are harder to come by.

Efficiency wise its one of the things that uses the least gas, probably becase it only gets used 2 to 3 times a day for short showers, washing dishes etc. The gas fridge uses more.

I dont have to heat a tank full time when im not there or wait for it to heat up once I get there if I turn it off.

The part that fails quite often  is the is the small water turbine that creates a spark to ignite it once water starts flowing. It is well documented. I purchased mine 2nd hand and it failed after 2 years. The parts are available but hard to find and from memory cost around $250 au. But there is a work around, that although not perfect worked for me. Simply replaced the power source with a couple of D cell batteries with a switch to inside. Switch on hot water. Batteries last about six months.

Requires a certain flow rate to ignite, so hot water has to be turned on first and cold added to reach the required temperature. A bit fiddly sometimes when you want a shower.

Im sure there are better more reliable units available but I was doing this on the cheap.

Its all pressurized to 30psi and uses a small on demand 12v pump, Flojet or similar.

I thought of solar hot water in its various forms, hot water solar panels and tank on roof, gas assited solar, the old layers of black tubing on the roof. It either got needlessly complex or too expensive.

There are many other options off gridders use as well that aren't solar related.

Just my experience for my circumstances.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on December 12, 2017, 09:36:06 PM
We call these things a caliphont here in NZ, and can highly recommend them. Mine is a "Rinnai" brand, it uses 2 D cells to run the igniter, these last around 5 years.. Despite its cheap appearance, it has served me with no issues at all for 17 years. It has many  safety features,  a 20 minute timer that limits the time it can run.... in case a pipe bursts etc. It will shut down if water pressure drops, and requires a minimum flow rate of 2 liters a minute. This runs my shower, and kitchen tap.. I use around 9 kilos of LPG in a 6 week period, showers every night. One nice feature is the instant hot water when the tap is turned on.... no waiting cause they can be mounted close to the tap.  Also saves money on not needing a shower mixer, the water temperature is adjusted  on the caliphont instead, and will hold its setting very accurately over time. The flow rate can also be adjusted with a second knob.
Rain water is fine for these, after all, rain is distilled water and has no added "goodness" unless you live in a some polluted place.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on December 14, 2017, 08:19:53 PM
Due to to high retail rates in Ontario that support the subsidized whole rates to solar, wind and natural gas generators . A do it yourselfer with some solar panels and a grid tie inverter can break even during the air conditioning and pool pump season.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on December 15, 2017, 09:22:16 AM
My Lister has not run for months, the solar panels daily are giving 30 amps for around 5 hours, obviously tapering off morning and evening as the sun moves around. Given the capacity of my battery bank, thats as much as I can store, in fact most is now being wasted. I may change to a 48 volt system next year if this global warming thing takes off, its improved our weather enormously, thanks to all the high emission Lister owners. There is something hugely satisfying making and consuming ones own power.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: Tom on December 15, 2017, 05:35:55 PM
A 40 gal electric is a good place to dump a lot of extra power when the batteries are full. We use one to preheat the water before it goes into the gas heater.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on December 15, 2017, 05:44:18 PM
I think Tom's excess storage method is why PV is often recommended over direct hot water generation.  Once everything is warmed up then the water collector is through for the day.  PV continues to provide storage or grid credits.  Of course it's tough to beat the ROI of a coil of HDPE on the roof.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on December 15, 2017, 07:51:42 PM
I think Tom's excess storage method is why PV is often recommended over direct hot water generation.  Once everything is warmed up then the water collector is through for the day.  PV continues to provide storage or grid credits.  Of course it's tough to beat the ROI of a coil of HDPE on the roof.

Casey, when I built the shed/house/workshop outside which the coil of HDPE lurks I put in a lot of time in the planning stages - going out  to the site in winter and driving pegs into the ground to see what the sunshine did in relation to trees and hills etc, and I looked up the govt stats on sun elevation at the lowest midwinter point and the highest midsummer point and drew up some side elevations, then when building I put a big overhang porch on the building, but set up about four metres high - so the low summer sun come in underneath it and shines all the way in through all of the glass in the front and the high summer sun is shaded by the overhang etc etc

I reckon commonsense stuff like that gives you a big head-start on low energy requirements

Just my $0.02  Cheers
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on December 15, 2017, 08:02:27 PM
Actually, Casey, I got sidetracked during the typing of that reply by a call from a client who had torn off a hydrant riser from his irrigation system.  The sun is shining, the irrigator has stopped and his sense of urgency translates into an early-hours Saturday call to me . . .

What I was going to say is you can't beat the ROI on good planning . . .

Especially when, like me, you don't have any investment funds and your labour is your investment and your future leisure is your return

Cheers
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: dieselspanner on December 16, 2017, 08:32:06 AM
Up here in the Pyrenees the locals have been building solar efficient houses for hundreds of years.

They are long and thin, east to west, facing south. a balcony on the south side, as Mikenash describes, inset on both floors with few to no openings in the north side.

Around a quarter of the length, is the dwelling the rest is the sheep barn with a hay loft above. There is always a small door between the kitchen and the sheep pens. so you don't have to go outside to tend to the animals, very useful given we can get a metre of snow in a few hours sometimes.

Around 50% have an asymmetric roof with the steeper side to the south in order to make the most of the winter sun to warm the bedroom or the hay loft.

I remember the trumpeting in Milton Keynes (UK) when they started solar passive building 40 years back, should have popped down here first!

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on December 16, 2017, 05:37:26 PM
I think Tom's excess storage method is why PV is often recommended over direct hot water generation.  Once everything is warmed up then the water collector is through for the day.  PV continues to provide storage or grid credits.  Of course it's tough to beat the ROI of a coil of HDPE on the roof.

Casey, when I built the shed/house/workshop outside which the coil of HDPE lurks I put in a lot of time in the planning stages - going out  to the site in winter and driving pegs into the ground to see what the sunshine did in relation to trees and hills etc, and I looked up the govt stats on sun elevation at the lowest midwinter point and the highest midsummer point and drew up some side elevations, then when building I put a big overhang porch on the building, but set up about four metres high - so the low summer sun come in underneath it and shines all the way in through all of the glass in the front and the high summer sun is shaded by the overhang etc etc

I reckon commonsense stuff like that gives you a big head-start on low energy requirements

Just my $0.02  Cheers

Around here with freezing temperatures . It is cheaper and less trouble to use solar PV to power resistance water heaters .
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on December 16, 2017, 11:06:36 PM
It's fascinating the solutions folks have found - especially those without much money.

All those years of experience and learn-by-mistake

I wonder what the mean age of folks on this forum would be?

Cheers
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on December 17, 2017, 06:39:24 AM
Quote
It is quite ironic that despite having a power shortage almost country wide here, the gubbermints are in fact detering people putting PV on their roof.

I don't get it either.  It happens all over the US as well.  There are companies specializing in stand alone pool pumps here to get around the long arm of the power utility.  When you think 4 hours a day at 750 watts is 3 KW a day of 1.20 here 365 days a year and you have $438 a year.  I wonder when oil will start to go up because it's more expensive to run plants at 60%?

Quote
I reckon commonsense stuff like that gives you a big head-start on low energy requirements

It sounds like a big head-start on many endeavors.  I like to believe there is as much commonsense today as there was during the time of Benjamin Franklin.  Unfortunately there are too many people today so that limited supply can get spread out pretty thin.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on December 17, 2017, 06:40:17 AM
Yeah, well, I'm 60 - wouldn't surprise me if I am "younger" than the mean - though I'm not sure "young" is the right word

Where I live and work, of the people who are able to combine both skills and experience - say, for example, guys that can rebuild a high-performance motorcycle engine AND who know all the pitfalls after 30 years of seeing the insides of them, or guys who can machine the barrel of your CS, press in a cast sleeve AND know from bitter experience what the piston/bore clearance should be, what materials the rings should be to suit the bore and what the right gap is for those rings in that application - guys like that all seem to be at least my age.

I have a colleague here who casts and machines engine bits from 1920s/30s American engines that people send him from the US to do because they can't get them done locally, and another who restores expensive cars like old Rollers and Jags to better-than-concourse for customers in Europe and Asia who presumably can't get them done there

None of these guys are younger than '60s . . .
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: oldgoat on December 17, 2017, 01:32:41 PM
I think that their skills were learnt in a time when things were repaired and not replaced. When I was a child my father used to replace the electric jug element with a new length of coiled resistance wire. These days we throw them away because the plastic goes brittle. I also remember getting the armature on my Wolf electric drill rewound but that was forty years ago.
 I had to rewind the armature on my s.o.m. because none of the rewinding shops were interested
Not a difficult job but a bit time consuming mostly because of the running around to find someone who could supply the correct materials.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on December 17, 2017, 03:46:04 PM
Longevity is a problem with us humans with a more technical inclination.  By the time you get enough depth and breadth of experience to be able to competently tackle a decent range of problems, health and mental decline issue set in and the show is over.

Breadth is a big issue these days-  this is the age of specialization because the amount of information for depth on any topic keeps growing.  Fewer folks have the opportunity to span a large number of disciplines. 

Given the serious limitations of our "wetware" (mammalian brains) it is astounding what we have been able to accomplish, technically.  Socially and politically- our weaknesses (emotional responses largely direct our not very "rational" decision making) are going to be our demise as a species.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: dieselspanner on December 17, 2017, 06:10:15 PM
Terry Pratchett said something like

'Wisdom is gained through experience, experience is frequently caused by a lack of wisdom'

I guess it's the same gene that let's me now appreciate Franks Sinatra, who I detested 50 odd years back, that piqued my interest in CS Listers and all the other old crap I've surrounded my self with..........

Stef
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on December 17, 2017, 07:19:23 PM
As I've mentioned before I'm 73.  The world is changing on two fronts.  The one inside here and the one out there.

I actually mis-connected a 24 volt battery set for the Uninterruptible Power Supply.  I couldn't believe my eyes.  Luckily I didn't fry the motherboard.  Soldered on a new connector and it's working fine.  But to actually put a red battery cable on a black connector.  Wow!  It's changing in here.

I spend an hour or two on YouTube a day / night.  We're cancelling the cable part of our package when they hike the prices next time or football season ends.  (Yes, I am a sports widower.)  I record everything that I watch from cable TV and binge watch one night a week.  I used to wait for new episodes each week.  I sometimes have four episodes recorded that I haven't watched and could with a little energy get it all on the internet.  That's just one of the changes that has occurred in the last year.  The outside changes are happening faster and faster as we march along towards the future.  How long will lithium be the battery element of choice?  What do you do with a gigafactory? 

I hope to watch the circus for many more years.  I will need to start being careful.  A tough trick for a lucky old guy to learn and execute.  I'm glad I've been doing some training for these years. 

A red wire on a black post!  What the hell is going on?

Aloha,

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on December 18, 2017, 12:23:45 AM
 

A red wire on a black post!  What the hell is going on?

Aloha,
[/quote]

Casey, I have spent decades playing with motorcycles for a living and for fun - I sorta know what I'm doing, more or less (or at least imagine I do)

A while back I had a Honda ST1300 as a test-bike to write about for one of the local mags.  It had a good seat and a big tank and I said (stupidly) to myself "I bet I can do 400Ks in four hours on a tank of gas . . ."  So I came home from work on Friday afternoon, showered, emptied my bladder - since it's often the deciding factor in the "range" of a motorcycle - changed into leathers and headed north.  401 ks and 3 hours 50 later I watched my tired self on the forecourt of the Ngaruawahia gas station putting diesel into the tank of the bloody thing.  Got to meet the nice man from Honda etc etc and am sill reminded of this by colleagues from time to time . . .

So, yes, I understand
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on December 22, 2017, 01:07:54 AM
About noon this week is great for checking out where ole sol is finding South and how far the sun travels.

I take a 4" piece of ABS pipe and get centered on the suns rays so the walls don't show in the shadow.  I throw a dial protractor on it and there's the magic number.  I then look for an obvious sight point well beyond the solar collector station and it's done.  I like intellectualism but sometimes a bit of grit under the nails is a whole lot more reliable.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on December 22, 2017, 03:48:55 AM
About noon this week is great for checking out where ole sol is finding South and how far the sun travels.

I take a 4" piece of ABS pipe and get centered on the suns rays so the walls don't show in the shadow.  I throw a dial protractor on it and there's the magic number.  I then look for an obvious sight point well beyond the solar collector station and it's done.  I like intellectualism but sometimes a bit of grit under the nails is a whole lot more reliable.

Yep.  I'm with you there

We have a website here belonging to NIWA (National Institute of Water & Atmospheric or some such?) and they publish sun angles for latitudes etc - my lazy self just cribbed it off of that :)
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: starfire on December 22, 2017, 04:11:50 AM
What with yours truly living in the wettest part of the country, like rainfall is measured in feet and meters, Im very happy just with it shining. I care not the direction, azimuth, lattitude....
The air is so clear of pollution the solar rays are as  potent as they are ever likely to get. the UV does well too. A well funded university study recently found that a  generic red plastic bucket will whiten and go brittle in one good summer. A red car will be pink in a just a few years.
Oh the problems we face.......
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on December 22, 2017, 05:10:01 PM
Hey Glort,
I enjoy reading about your solar grid tie experiments.

If the inverter trip out is for high AC voltage, measuring the drop on the inverter ouput to the panel might be helpful.  Since this isn't your first hookup, and you previously reported this issue with small wires, I'm wondering if your service drop wire size and length might be a problem for a larger capacity grid back feed.  Or perhaps you just have the bad luck of being at a relatively high voltage leg of the power co. distribution.

Looking at panel voltage VS inverter voltage on a clear day with high output might tell you the issue, and watching panel voltage on a day when the inverter(s) are tripping out might also be fruitful.   If neighborhood load is low and panel voltage is already quite high, this would limit your backfeed.  Normally, if you document a regular over voltage situation on your line, the power co would  change your transformer connection to lower your average voltage; some have multiple taps to allow this...though you'd probably not want the attention in your particular situation.

Do you share a transformer with other homes?  I'm not familiar with power co. practice in Oz...except that you have the same idiotic Wye distribution grounding practice that we have in most of the US which results in a great deal of current flowing in the earth, aquifer, and metalic gas and water mains.  They violate transformer isolation of the customer secondary with a "ground tie" wire to the distribution (primary) neutral.  It is an engineering abomination left over from the 1920s.  Zipse (PE, recognized as a Lifetime Fellow of IEEE) has campaigned much of his professional life to try and get this corrected.  He has many public papers covering this issue.

donaldwzipse.com/images/PID642277.pdf

This is just one major technical folly which illustrates quite clearly how humans need better supervision...we accept what we're taught and established systems as sacred and defend it despite all evidence to the contrary.


Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on December 22, 2017, 05:36:53 PM
Quote
A red car will be pink in a just a few years.
So I'm betting the carpets have gone orange already as well.  Life can be a treacherous journey through Satan's jowls if not carefully planned and executed.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on December 23, 2017, 12:57:10 AM
Many US electronics will have a three prong plug and filter consisting of a common mode choke and some small caps to the safety ground, in order to meet our FCC specs for AC line conducted emissions.  This type of filter would cause your elevated voltage on the trailer chassis and ground if not connected to the power co. ground wire, since the AC line being a neutral and hot is unbalanced  and thus the capacitor to the hot wire is passing some 50/60Hz AC voltage to your trailer's formerly unconnected safety ground.

It is technically nuts to use the safety ground to carry this filter induced voltage/ current, but much of our power system is evolved and there has been more concern for cost and convenience  than anything else. 

The caps to the safety ground in the cheap line filters at products do work well for passing the FCC test, since an artificial ground plane is right below the equipment and all measurements are made relative to it.  In the real world, the inductance of the safety ground wire is so high as to make it relatively useless for high frequency filtering.  Its a case of  "Mercedes diesel emissions" engineering.

I think you're on the right track regarding the overvoltage resistance situation, and it's good that the actual line voltage is fine so the fix is entirely in your control.



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 07, 2018, 07:48:39 PM
We are seeing more 104F days here at 5600 feet in AZ in the summer now.  That makes it near 118F in Phoenix. 
When I lived down there I got used to it and anything less than 110F was OK to work outside, but over that, it was dicey. Now I'm a wimp.

I'm struggling health wise this winter but have been doing some planning for my PV upgrade, needed for the inverter, which is intended in part to run a water chiller for my home in-floor PEX system. 

Starfire had an interesting posts earlier about the relatively fixed voltage of PV panels at low light level that woke up some brain cells and I did some further reading on the web about the typical PV voltage vs current output plot.  Seems the whole power point tracking business is largely marketing hype, as about 36V (for the nominal 24V PV panel) is always where the sweet spot is within a few percent.  That is true regardless of light level.  My system is 120VDC and without much thinking about it I used 5- 24V panels in series. That puts the max power voltage at 180V, which wastes some power at my linear PV charge regulator (BIG heatsink- 10x12 inch finned aluminum) when bulk charging at say 146V.  Not as bad for heat as seems as voltage is pulled down by the battery load all during bulk charging.  Presently about 5.2 amps peak charge in winter, and 6 amps in winter. 

Today it was a relatively clear sky, so I tried a test. With 5 panels in series, I was bulk charging at 5 amps.  With 4 panels, 4.7 amps. (Peak power voltage of 144V minus wire losses at the panels.)  That's only a 6% loss in charging power for 20% reduction in PV panels.  So now I'm seriously thinking of adding 4 panels strings in parallel, instead of 5.  This will help reduce heat dissipation at the linear charge regulator as the bulk charging current tapers off and the regulator must drop excess voltage, and will get me more bang for my buck on the additional PV panels.

So I may look for some bargain 175ish watt size panels and add 8 of those instead of 5- 300ish watt panels.











Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 08, 2018, 05:00:24 PM
Uniform overcast this AM so I was able to recheck at low PV output.  1.1A  of charge and 1.1A with 4 instead of 5 panels in series.  As long as I stick to 36+ volt max power voltage (MPV) panels, I should be good with adding them in groups of 4. 

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 09, 2018, 12:47:32 AM
I think you can't go wrong either way on the panels, Glort, given your rapid payback. Just a question of labor and materials for wiring up the additional smaller panels if you've got roof space. 

I did some looking today and some of the new 250-320 watt panels are now as low as 32 volt at peak power, which would take 5 panels but at good efficiency.  Found one bargain seller for those.  Disappointing in that the 320 watt panels from Sunelect in Phoenix are only 35.6 volt; should work for 4, especially for float voltage.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on January 09, 2018, 02:46:27 AM
It's not the panels  - it's the controller

Most MPPT controllers are most efficient with the solar Vmp voltage at about 2x the battery voltage.  Higher voltage, and you suffer more conversion losses in the controller.

See page 12 of this doc for the moringstar curves
https://2n1s7w3qw84d2ysnx3ia2bct-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/TechTip-EnclosureHeatDissipation.pdf
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 09, 2018, 05:01:53 AM
Mike, I'm not using commercial gear, I'm using a linear controller of my own design, not a MPPT buck converter (EMI bomb),  so actually fitting panel voltage to the 120V battery voltage is more important.  Anything much over battery voltage when limiting charge current must be dissipated as heat in my TO-247 darlington power transistors.

The Morningstar MPPT controller manual link you provided was very helpful to review...they show a 6 volt drop (for a nominal 24V panel with the typical 36V max power voltage at 77F) in the max power voltage at just 96F.  I didn't realize that panel temperature affected the max power voltage so much.  It means I need a lot more rated max power voltage for summer as my panel temps will be more like 150F.  In fact this big temperature related change in MPPT is the best rationale for MPPT that I have ever seen.  I'll have to confirm this data elsewhere but given the quality of the engineering data and tech writing Morningstar provided, I think they are likely quite trustworthy.

Thanks for this much appreciated food for thought!





Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 09, 2018, 05:12:33 AM
One additional thought-  I suspect that while the Morningstar buck converter is 2% more efficient at PV voltage about 2x battery, the PV wiring losses might well exceed that 2%, so it's probably not a penalty for this controller to go  with the higher PV voltage.  Wire sizes get pretty nuts for lower voltages, which is why everyone has been moving to higher voltages  . 

A decent article with calculations for temperature coefficients:
https://www.sunwize.com/tech-notes/temperature-effects-on-pv-modules/

I'm going to have to reconsider my 4 panel string carefully based on lower voltages at summer temperatures and the specific panels selected.  My tests were with cool winter temperatures so Vmp was high...

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on January 12, 2018, 07:14:09 PM
Micro inverters are great if you have large patterns of shade, marching across your array during the day.  That shade would mess with a string inverter, but with the micros, only the shaded panels are down.

In full sun, no difference between micros and string inverters, except the string inverter is in a much easier place to work on or replace.  Electronic modules baking in the sun, are either very expensive to withstand the heat, or cheap and have to be replaced a lot.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 18, 2018, 06:18:26 PM
Glad you keep finding such amazing deals, Glort, though I am quite envious.  I had to buy new panels from Sunelec.com, couldn't find anything in used here.  I ended up paying $1100 including $250 for freight shipping and a $40 packaging (pallet and wrap job) fee for my five "310 watt" (200 realistic watts) panels.  We got the new rack posts concreted in place, plus the new posts for the modified old rack, and all welding complete.  We will start mounting panels on the new rack Monday assuming they test out OK.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on January 19, 2018, 11:00:04 AM
Here in the UK, second-hand panels are virtually unobtainium - and of those I've found, they're the same price (virtually) as new panels, so it's a waste of time buying them.

A new 300W panel (individual panel) costs anything from around UK£230 second hand & damaged, to UK£450 brand new. Twin 150W panels come in a bit cheaper at around UK£240-270 brand new.

Those prices in other currencies:

UK£230UK£270UK£450
US$320US$375US$625
AU$399AU$468AU$780

Systems cost $$$more. Installation costs $$$$extra. It used to be possible to get a "FREE!" system, when the feed-in tariffs were good; but they've been whittled away to the point now where you have to have a gigantic south-facing roof preferably with a large magnifying glass on a tower in your garden before they'll consider it these days.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on January 19, 2018, 11:08:19 AM
OK, some additional eBay-fu reveals that if you're willing to buy a larger system (1.5kW to 5kW), it's a bit cheaper than buying individual panels...

So, for a 5kW system, consisting of 15x330W panels, one inverter, no mounting hardware (that's separate apparently), but you get a pile of MC4 connectors worth pennies... you'll shell out a mere £3,295. And you have to go pick it up, they won't ship it, so factor in another £150 to hire a van & fuel it.

Anyway, that base price in US & AU dollars, for shits & giggles: US$4580. AU$6853.

Not to mention the fact that solar in the UK is crap compared to much of the US and virtually all of Australia... The sunniest place in the UK (the "delightful" Bognor Regis) gets 1902.9 hours of sunlight per year (apparently). No idea what that translates to in power terms though, considering that for much of the year our sunlight arrives at such a shallow angle it expends most of its energy just getting all the way through the atmosphere to here...
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 23, 2018, 12:15:04 AM
Glad you found another fantastic bargain, Glort.

I got my new panels and rack mounted today, and got the old rack of 175 watt panels on the new "one man tilt" posts as well. The 300 watt panels dwarf the old 175's.  Both work great, the seasonal tilt adjust will now be easy for me to do alone. We managed to move the old rack without removing the panels with just a pry bar for shifting it, no small feat.

Testing the panels was only late and cursory due to high clouds much of the day.  The open circuit voltage was below spec at 42.1v vs 44V, but the short circuit current was high at 9.25 amps instead of spec'd 8.7 amps. Rather strange (!) so I'll do some further testing of the array when I get it wired up Wednesday.  I'm waiting on an MC-4 tee and some cable. My linear charge regulator needs a tiny bit of the the nominal 24V as well as nominal 0, 120V.  The +120 is directly tied to the positive 120V battery terminal.  The negative is below 0V in operation, no more than about -90V at float.  This keeps the max DC volts to ground anywhere in the system to 146V or less, which isn't a bad zap for DC.  DC takes about 4x the current to stop your heart compared to the same voltage in AC.

With the extra power, I can (on sunny days) use my new ultra low conducted EMI inverter to run my well pump fill my gravity feed storage tank, or run the washing machine.   The old 875 watt rack has done fine for my incandescent lighting and computer/projector and low wattage cooking use.  (My refrigerator, the usual off grid power hog, is propane.) 

It will be fun to have more PV power to play with.



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 23, 2018, 05:24:24 AM
I only lifted the old rack about 4 inches onto the new supporting posts which are centered under the panel.  Now the tilt is easy and a one man job.  The old design tilted from the bottom and it was a heavy 2 man job to tilt.

The new rack will be wired in parallel (nominal 120V, 24V, 0v) with the old one; a big boost in current.  Presently my Listeroid 6/1 is my only AC power and air compressor power source. Since I only average $100/yr in AC generation fuel costs (and that much again for compressed air), this upgrade isn't economically justifiable.  I'll have about $2000 in it including paid labor help.

I wanted the power to seriously test life and durability of my ultra low EMI inverter prototype design.   It's a tech-hobby thing.

I agree home PV power is a lot like shop size...no man has every complained of having too much.

Your question about switching your grid tie inverter ouput to different phases or meter panels is a good one.  If the grid tie inverter design was made to tolerate a grid outage and the on-off glitches that often entails,  it should be able to do it.  You can get double or triple pole relays that could do the switch-over.  Let me know the specifics and I can try to help you with it.




Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 23, 2018, 03:44:59 PM
High AC voltage sensing with hysteresis is what you're asking for.  I would do this by doing a somewhat filtered peak voltage circuit (transformer, bridge diode, resistors, capacitors) and analog comparator with trim pot for set point and trim pot for hysterisis.  The fiddly bit is getting the peak voltage sense to ignore spikes and other line transients and have good immunity from inverter generated EMI.  This is an electronics build project for an intermediate skilled technician.   

An arduino could be used instead for the AC voltage sensing (peak would suffice or RMS if you wanted to get fancy) and is handy in that hysterisis and time delays can be programmed. 

I'll have a look around online to see if someone is making and selling some bits of this which would make your task easier.  Either analog or arduino would be fine, it's just a matter of cost and difficulty for you to build.


 
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 23, 2018, 04:27:23 PM
Had a look and your best bet is to use a voltage monitoring relay. Macromatic makes some nice ones, but you may be able to find a china clone for a lot less $.  The macromatic units are self powered, which helps simplify the setup.

These relays have a set over/undervoltage which trips the relay, with an adjustable time delay as well.  Since the water heater is a sizeable load you would want to use the monitoring relay output to operate a second relay to switch on the water heater. 

https://www.macromatic.com/products-main/voltage-monitor-relays

This would eliminate the need for any fiddling with arduino or analog circuits, both are significant time and patience eaters, and give you something that anyone could maintain.

Give a holler if you need help on a specific unit you might find available to you there in Australia.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 24, 2018, 04:23:59 PM
Yes, that voltage monitoring relay looks like it should suffice.

I think it will be a challenge to find a current limiting device for your water heater.

Here in the US you can get water heater elements of various wattages.  Replacing the lower element with something suitable might be an easier solution-  plus adding a separate thermostat for it. 

Normally, the lower element (only) goes on at a higher temperature, and the upper comes on at a somewhat lower temperature to provide faster recovery of the water at the top of the tank.  A single thermostat has the bimetal switches to do this and turn on one or the other element.  So the lower element could be disconnected from the upper thermostat and used separately, or with a contactor could be diverted for your use only when needed.  You'd have to add a thermostat for the lower element to avoid boiling the tank.

Heavier wiring from inverter to the meter might an easier solution if voltage at the meter isn't going too high but it is going high measured at the inverter.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 26, 2018, 10:11:02 PM
Glort- The PV Edge unit doesn't do battery, that's a separate inverter product according to their diagram. 

I don't know of a piece of power regulating electronics suitable for limiting current to your water heater; it may exist, I'm just not aware of it. A variable speed motor drive might do it so perhaps that's the sort of thing you are referring to when you say PWM.

A 2000 watt, 230V variac might be a simple reiliable solution. The latter would let you dial in whatever voltage you need to get the desired current draw.  It would also be possible to use a variac, modified with more than one lead soldered in place to the windings instead of the adjustable graphite wiper, to have two or more voltages to switch between via relay, to get you more than one fixed current.  You can determine the location(s) to solder via the adjustable wiper...just use a clamp on amp meter and dial it to where you get the desired current.  Sand and solder tin the marked winding spot and then solder on your wire(s).  A variac is a very handy form of toroidal transformer and is often at 95% efficiency.






Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 27, 2018, 03:53:05 AM
Good find, Glort.  That dimmer unit is very high capacity!  If it doesn't confuse the grid tie converters with waveform distortions and EMI it should be a very simple and low cost solution. Good chance it will do the job nicely. Bravo!






 
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 27, 2018, 09:12:16 PM
Here in Australia, we only get six cents per Kilowatt hour from the utility companies. We also have to pay $150 a quarter for the man to come and read the meter.  Grrrr.

Bob
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on January 28, 2018, 06:09:44 PM
Quote
Here in Australia, we only get six cents per Kilowatt hour from the utility companies. We also have to pay $150 a quarter for the man to come and read the meter.  Grrrr.

I feel your pain.  And to think I was complaining about 15 cents a KW buy back here in Hawaii.  Gosh, they're only making 100% per day instantaneously on my investment as they charge > 30 cents retail - that's me when I'm not selling to them.  "Gee Whiz Aunt Minnie how can they make a living with only 35,600% return per year?"  The $150 a quarter would really frost my sack too.  How much do they charge you when you buy electricity from them? 
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 28, 2018, 06:43:07 PM
A brief power co. rant follows:

The whole scheme of "public utilities" run by corporations and "regulated" by corporation commissions was developed by private utilities while throwing money at legislators to get it passed.  This and propaganda to paint all government power programs as socialism and communism was very successful here in the US.  This despite highly successful programs such as the TVA which provided power at half the rate of the private power co.s.  In the US, state corporatation commissioners are handpicked and have campaigns overtly funded by power companies, which is why this approach was initially pitched by the power co.s (mostly those owned through various holding companies by JP Morgan).  It is very, very cheap to buy a politician (for a large corporation) and this solves the problem quite nicely as the populace is easily manipulated to vote against their own best interest by repetition of sound bites and images on TV. (Better than 90% of elections go to whoever bought the most advertising.) The corporation commissioner jobs are often stepping stones to higher political positions so they are a very good investment (for peanuts) for power companies.

I'm glad I am no longer am under the thumb of a power company.  I encourage others to do likewise.

Here's an interesting article about what Germany has been doing in converting power back to local control and localized generation.  The global boon in lower PV prices is largely due to Germany's  aggressive RE program.  They have managed it quite impressively. 

https://www.ft.com/content/2f3b0b1e-4dee-11e3-8fa5-00144feabdc0






Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: ajaffa1 on January 28, 2018, 09:21:01 PM
Quote
Here in Australia, we only get six cents per Kilowatt hour from the utility companies. We also have to pay $150 a quarter for the man to come and read the meter.  Grrrr.

I feel your pain.  And to think I was complaining about 15 cents a KW buy back here in Hawaii.  Gosh, they're only making 100% per day instantaneously on my investment as they charge > 30 cents retail - that's me when I'm not selling to them.  "Gee Whiz Aunt Minnie how can they make a living with only 35,600% return per year?"  The $150 a quarter would really frost my sack too.  How much do they charge you when you buy electricity from them? 
With Government taxes it works out around 26 cents a Kwh. so they are making more than 400% on the solar power I export.
What really gets me is that they can`t even maintain supply, yesterday in Victoria they had a hot day so a lot of people turned on the AC and overloaded the supply. 50,000 homes and businesses without power. The government and shareholders must be very proud. I guess disconnecting everyone is one way to meet the emissions reduction targets.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 29, 2018, 01:43:41 AM
The simple solution to power co./political malfeasance annoyance is to simply switch over your home to PV-battery-generator.

The trick it to do so without shooting yourself in the foot financially; you must minimize battery power consumption so that battery size and cost (or generator fuel cost) is reasonable...since batteries have a finite life and must be replaced.  PV only loses roughly 1 percent per year.

I know a lady with a big off grid system who uses an 1800 watt ELECTRIC water distiller for all her drinking and cooking water, plus has a gas stove with ELECTRIC glow bar and monster refrigerator with all electronic bells and whistles and auto defrost (resistive heating).  It eats Trojan batteries.  I'd bet her battery bill is bigger than many people's on grid power bills.

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 30, 2018, 05:39:08 PM
Wow, that is some serious power generation.  And done for a shockingly low cost.

 I found that with my added 1500W of panels I must now upgrade my charge controller to the newer design I did for my neighbors.  My older design switched to a fixed net 2.5 amp absorption charge rate after batteries hit the bulk charge voltage (formerly at a max 5.2 A).  The new design maintains the max current the batteries can take limited only by a maximum variation between batteries of 3A while providing just enough current to all 12V batteries to hold them at the temperature compensated bulk charge voltage.  I can see the advantage of AGM batteries for higher current charging- my cheap 110AH marine batteries can't really take even 10.3 amps when DOD is only 10%.

For offsetting your own daytime power use, west orientation (near vertical) can be helpful for late in the day power. 
My neighbor's want to add a vertical "fence gate" array which can be seasonally aimed at a near sundown. That would be a boon for electric supper cooking and would extend water pumping hours for irrigation in the summer.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: buickanddeere on January 30, 2018, 07:38:55 PM
Snow load from the last storm bent the stamped galvanized steel fromwork supporting the neighbour’s 10Kw ground mount system. Will obtain some images and post .
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mikenash on January 31, 2018, 08:09:55 AM
Snow load from the last storm bent the stamped galvanized steel fromwork supporting the neighbour’s 10Kw ground mount system. Will obtain some images and post .

Nothing made from that stamped, punched galv tin is worth having if there is real work to be done . . .
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: BruceM on January 31, 2018, 05:01:45 PM
The commercial ground mount racks that I've seen are a farce- pathetic fixed tilt, high price, weak. 
We have wicked spring winds here so site welded steel and concrete are the only way to go.

I was very pleased with the 2" thin wall (1/16th inch thick) square tube I used for my new big tilting rack- very good rigidity vs weight for a nearly 17 foot length of rack.  About $90 for the three 17 foot lengths. Everything else was angle iron.  A local area fence store has pretty good steel stock and prices, and cuts pieces to length via bandsaw at no charge.  We only had to drill mounting holes and weld it together.

Ground mounting is easier here- few trees to worry about and plenty of space.  Different game altogether for city folks.



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: LowGear on October 27, 2019, 04:41:51 PM
Sorry glort,

But you went way beyond my attention span.  What I'm curious about is your attachment technique.  I'm also curious about a simple panel count.  5KW at 200 Watt panels suggests 25 panels.  That's a busy load of hardware. 

Are you working on a site storage program?

Does a meter reader come onto your grounds?
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: EdDee on October 28, 2019, 12:08:31 PM
Hey Glort...

Tie male appendage to rope, tie other end of rope to one carbon rod.... When sparks and suchlike become too concerning, apply feet to ground... Rapidly... Ensuing escape will automatically widen spark gap, break conductors and shut down current flow....

PS - Remember to check that the breaking strain of rope is withing personal physical tolerance limits and greater than breaking strain of connected wiring... Electrical, that is!!

Lol
Ed
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on October 29, 2019, 02:39:17 AM
>  Might try hooking 4x 250W solar panels in parallel and see if they can do any sort of decent weld.

That will be interesting.   PV panels are current sources, and as their current lessens, the voltage rises back toward nominal.

Here's a bit of an article describing it.   and a pic
http://www.aurorasolarenergy.com/iv-curve-of-a-solar-panel/

(http://www.aurorasolarenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/IV-Curve.png)

Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: dax021 on June 30, 2020, 05:46:25 PM
Hell, that sheer abundance of panels makes me drool.  I have to get buy with 4 x 300W panels for my off grid shack.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: dax021 on July 02, 2020, 09:18:14 AM
2nd hand panels are almost non existent here, but then in saying that, there might be a few coming on the market soon.  One of my distant neighbours just had 10 stolen from his field.  Will end up in the township somewhere.  Stove and hot water are both off gas, but now in the winter months my batteries are taking strain.  All about money, money, money, it's a rich man's world, especially post Covid.  Everything has gone up faster than the infection rate.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: dax021 on July 02, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
I have a SR2 with a Hoffberg alternator directly coupled.  Batteries are 6 x 8V to give me 48V.  The genny is wired into my Pip (called Axpert in S.A.), but am having problems with earthing and when I try to feed the PIP, my DB trips, so it becomes a mission to charge batteries and power a load.  My electrical skills are just not up to scratch, I guess.  Sounds worse than it is, today is sunny and my batteries are fully charged now at almost 15:00.  Batteries are not great either and don't hold charge as well as they should.  I could be on 50V at sunset and down to 47V overnight with basically just a fridge running.  Not the best fridge, but more efficient than most, the motor only draws about 80W.  When I win the lottery I'll invest in a bigger, better setup, but till then, luckily the winters are not too long down here. (Plettenberg Bay, S.A.)
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on July 03, 2020, 05:13:16 PM
Safety Zealots please note approved safety harness and full PPE ( May be hard to make out in pic but trust  and spare me, it's there. Really!)

Those "Tree Camo" hard-hats really blend in well, don't they?  ;D ;D

Nice work, though, that's a really classy looking setup.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: dax021 on July 04, 2020, 11:12:55 AM
Don't forget about that container load for Ed, of which I would hope to buy a few ;D. Also, while you're on the roof, clean those bloody leaves out of your gutters  :police:
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: dax021 on July 05, 2020, 08:56:38 AM
I know what you mean.  I do maintenance at a fancy holiday house here in Plett and they have a massive Milkwood tree in their front garden.  It constantly sheds leaves on the roof, which block about 30m of gutters regularly.  On top of that, it sheds small black berries, which cover the wooden deck.  These things are incredibly sticky and when you stand on one it leaves a purple stain every time you put your foot down.  To top it all off, these trees are a protected species and one may not even lop off a branch without a million permits. 

Back to topic, your setup is looking good.  When summer comes you can supply the whole neighbourhood with power.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: mike90045 on August 16, 2020, 10:01:28 PM
You are lucky to be able to putter about and grow your system.  In the USA, we have permits, fees and inspections, and the Power Co police come down on you if they think you are not buying enough juice from them.

Can you get a surplus 3ph transformer from flea bay and use that to balance your loads


related - today I had to pre lube and fire up the Listeroid - California is buried in a tropical heat wave with clouds, 105F weather and reduced solar production. Lightning storms are setting off wildfires and with everyone sheltering at home, air conditioning is running, until the evening rolling blackouts come around, statewide.  Calif has knocked down power plants with the dream of green energy and it's falling apart because they cant generate and import enough power for the state.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: EdDee on August 17, 2020, 09:54:51 AM
Hey Glort...

Compared to you, we are very big small time!! At the most we have been using a paltry 35kwh max 50kwh per day before installing the solar and gen setup.

As a guideline, I initially installed 2x250W panels alongside a 500W blow gennie. Just after, I installed 4.5kW of N facing panels, I have now almost completed the array with a further 1.2kW E and 2.4kW W panels.... Coupled to that, the switching system to auto switch in large loads and drop loads to minimal values when solar is low....

Initial savings were around 50% with the N panels, and now with the EW panels(They are almost standing vertical) we are extending our solar runtimes by an hour in the morning(minimum) and at least 2.5hrs in the late afternoon..

The overall effect, has been to drop our average consumption down to around .4 or .5kW per hour on a 24hr cycle - This amounts to, on a day with reasonable sun, around 8kWh to 12kWh municipal usage total - Percentage wise, less than a third, ie 33% of what we were initially using.

Had I known then, what I know now, I would never have installed N panels - The EW panels are, while generating a somewhat lower power density, far more useful from a consumption point of view than the "peaky" N panels.

Granted, I am running a fairly small battery bank, just under 500Ah, but the cost/return/reward ratios are right where I want them - I wouldn't turn down another 500Ah if it was looking for a good home, but it is low on the list of needs.

My charger/inverter can process a max of 5kVA peak out and a charge max of around 3.2kw... This is my "limiting" factor at the moment, but we're getting by with it quite nicely (ah, add a 1kW GTI to it's output as well to help it along and the little solar/blow gennie as an additional charger helper, and all is roses!)

During and around solar noon, we are way over on power availability than we use... The auto switching is really handy around then.

Enough rambling!! I'm green with envy at your availability of used panels!!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: AdeV on August 17, 2020, 11:09:13 AM

Just did my reads and another advance on the max daily solar generation.

97.3 Kwh.

When one thinks about it, that's really a lot of power to produce from a generator. 
On a 15 KW output unit, that's over 6 hours run time. For a 24 hr period, one would have to be producing a fraction over 4 Kw non stop. 


Interesting... that's basically the equivalent of running a 10hp Lister continuously (a 10/2)... I wonder what the fuel usage on that would be? I've only got a 6/1 & haven't done any fuel usage calcs... Assuming you wanted to run 24/7 on veg oil you grew on your own land, how many acres (hectares if you speak French) would you need to do that?
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: EdDee on August 17, 2020, 02:18:04 PM
A good one would be watching the power pole out the front burn.
Again.  - Hmmmm.... I wonder what caused it last time?

I spose you have to keep all your panels on rooftops to protect them From the Miscreants? ... Yep

30 Ft deep Cesspool that ....  That is Soooooo tempting!!

flask, wider at the bottom... You and I aren't possibly related, are we? .... I would almost go for grease impregnated sides too.... Just to make sure!!

Lol
Ed
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: ajaffa1 on August 18, 2020, 10:21:01 AM
G`Day Guys. It`s been a while since I had the opportunity to view the LEF. We got the internet re-connected a couple of weeks ago via satellite, but still no telephone.
Looks like our old mate Glort has been a very busy boy, I wonder if he has consulted a structural engineer to confirm that his house and it`s roof will carry the weight of that many panels!
I would certainly like his help and advice on a new solar array. While our house burned down, our shed survived and has ample roof space for a solar installation, the local solar installer is coming to see me this week.
We are now living between a caravan and a habitable converted shipping container, we have mains power and the last bill was way more than we paid when we had a house. I guess we are using imported electricity for everything at the moment: heating, hot water & etc. Come the summer it will get very expensive when we have to run portable air conditioners.
I have no idea as to how much energy we would be allowed to feed back into the grid but our last system was a 5KW unit. There has been recent government approval for a renewable energy zone based around Armidale but I have no idea if that extends as far as our area.
On the Lister side of things, I had a problem with the ST2 SOM, it would not run at full throttle. I traced the problem back to the underground exhaust pipe which had partially melted in the bush fires restricting the flow of exhaust gases. The Lister CS runs like a charm but has a leaking fuel system which needs to be addressed. Sadly it will have wait, right now I have a house to build and 20 acres of dead trees to clear. Far too late in life to become a lumberjack!

I`m a lumberjack and I`m OK
Bob



Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: veggie on August 19, 2020, 03:26:56 AM


Set up a hydrolysis plant and make hydrogen from water !
The energy is now free.
Title: Re: Blasphemy..... Solar power.
Post by: veggie on August 19, 2020, 03:21:14 PM

Hmmmm.... anyone in your family interested in growing lots of food on a steady basis?

Solar power like you have could run EVERYTHING in a solar powered hydroponics greenhouse.
No soil, no weeds, no tilling.
It could power the pumps, LED lights (during shorter winter days), chillers, fans,  etc....