Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Original Lister Cs Engines => Topic started by: Jake65mm on December 16, 2015, 01:43:16 AM

Title: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: Jake65mm on December 16, 2015, 01:43:16 AM
So im sure most of you heard the story of the new in crate lister's that went on the auction block a few months back. I consider myself extremely fortunate to be in a position to be able to bid on one of the 12/2's and win.  It was a large investment but I have been looking for the perfect show engine for many years and I figured that was the perfect candidate with a once in a lifetime story to go with it. So I wanted to share with the lister community the pictures I took during the uncrating process. I will be slowly posting more as they upload.
 (http://i.imgur.com/pio5HKwl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/KQmNJu2l.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/2HIs7OWl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/e4x4uzwl.jpg)

Proud papa in this picture
(http://i.imgur.com/4vT8BScl.jpg)
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: dieselgman on December 16, 2015, 03:45:31 AM
Truly a thing of beauty! A piece of history that is worth preserving.   ;)

I have been consumed with the Lister Petter closing and plant re-location or would have probably made time for uncrating and setting up a couple of ours here by now. We are buried in the modern Alphas at the moment.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: TxBlacksmith on December 16, 2015, 04:37:03 AM
Drop dead gorgeous!  I am so jealous!  ;D
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: dieselgman on December 16, 2015, 01:46:05 PM
The question of the day might be...

"How much $$$ would you be willing to pony up if you could purchase a true replica (perhaps as parts) of one of these Dursleys - recast from an untouched original sample and closely monitored for top quality control?"

It is not beyond reason to approach the foundries already making the clones and have them prepare new molds and perhaps upgrade some tooling and manufacturing methodology to produce a high-quality product. I would guess that we would need a base of about 500 copies and $100,000 investment to get the thing properly engineered and underway.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: Jake65mm on December 16, 2015, 04:25:19 PM
The question of the day might be...

"How much $$$ would you be willing to pony up if you could purchase a true replica (perhaps as parts) of one of these Dursleys - recast from an untouched original sample and closely monitored for top quality control?"

It is not beyond reason to approach the foundries already making the clones and have them prepare new molds and perhaps upgrade some tooling and manufacturing methodology to produce a high-quality product. I would guess that we would need a base of about 500 copies and $100,000 investment to get the thing properly engineered and underway.

dieselgman

That would be amazing but do you think you could rally enough people up to have the funds available for such a thing? I've never personally dealt with the company's that manufacture the clones and spares so I didn't know something like that was even possible.
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: dieselgman on December 16, 2015, 07:09:03 PM
I would think that with around 25 orders this could be acted on. Individual castings can be done as a gradual step-by-step approach and we know how to get that done. There are foundries at the ready for anything we can imagine if the funds and original examples are made available to them.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: listerboat on December 16, 2015, 07:10:09 PM
What a thing of beauty! Great find!
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: Jake65mm on December 16, 2015, 10:49:27 PM
I would like to be involved in this.
I would think that with around 25 orders this could be acted on. Individual castings can be done as a gradual step-by-step approach and we know how to get that done. There are foundries at the ready for anything we can imagine if the funds and original examples are made available to them.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: mike90045 on December 17, 2015, 03:08:13 AM
The question of the day might be...

"How much $$$ would you be willing to pony up if you could purchase a true replica (perhaps as parts) of one of these Dursleys - recast from an untouched original sample and closely monitored for top quality control?"....
dieselgman   

Would this be a 6/1, 8/1 or a twin ?  I'd be very interested in a "updated" style with better lube in the areas that lack, and a spin on filter. 
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: dieselgman on December 17, 2015, 03:40:18 AM
I would think the 8/1 would be a good first project along these lines because it would have the widest appeal and probable demand as a genset build.

You probably know by now that my own preference would be getting the pure original specs and engineering details met first... modifications or updates as potential additions - secondary.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: broncodriver99 on December 17, 2015, 07:23:33 AM
Being as all new molds would need to be made, why not pursue USA manufacturing? Sure it would be more expensive, but also leaps and bounds higher quality. If it is to be a kit engine I imagine most US foundries could get it closer to spec and save the shipping. I personally would much rather spend my dollar that way.
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: mike90045 on December 17, 2015, 07:41:51 PM
....US foundries ...

The EPA still allows US foundries to melt metal ?  All that carbon footprint !! ;D
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: dieselgman on December 17, 2015, 11:16:24 PM
My experience with US foundries is simply that they have closed doors, could not compete in today's global marketplace.

Question, who is still in operation here?

dieselgman
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: Hugh Conway on December 18, 2015, 12:54:57 AM
U.S. foundries to manufacture castings? I don't know of any though here in Canada, I would bet the Lunenburg Foundry could do it.
I worked there as charge hand carpenter in the late 1980's when they made the Atlantic make-and-break engines as custom orders.......maybe they still do!

Here's a link to the foundry site  http://www.lunenburgfoundry.com/    and here is a youtube link showing  an 8Hp twin  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg8W6gYTXR4

When I worked there there was a blind machinist (yes, blind) who did all the machine work on the Atlantic castings, then assemble the engines. He could tell a drill size by feel and read a micrometer with his fingers. The pattern storage area up in the attic of this place was incredible, they never threw anything away.

The actual foundry was a throwback to the turn of the century (1900) operation. Not much different from the Rajkot operations we see today, but the foundrymen wore boots and leather aprons. After a pour, the foundry floor was like a vision of walking through hell......dark and smoking with glowing molten metal. I was privileged to be present at several pours, wish I had filmed it.......an amazing and dangerous process in which each man has his particular part to play. When the clay plug was smashed and the iron began to flow, there was a careful rhythm to the pours. After one run through with all the ladles being carried to and emptied into the molds, the stopper would jam another clay plug into the retort outlet, everyone drank a dipper of water from a barrel. Then line reformed, the plug was smashed and the pour continued.......what a show!

This is a family run business and has been for more than 100 years. It would be surprising if they could not make good castings to replicate a Lister.
Can they do it in a financially viable way?  You'd have to ask.

Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: dieselgman on December 18, 2015, 03:31:53 AM
Emails sent to them... will report back.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: Fairmountvewe on December 19, 2015, 03:23:18 PM
There is also at least one foundry in Ontario near Kitchener/Waterloo run by some Mennonites who make cast iron parts for wood stoves. I can work on their contact information if needed
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: TxBlacksmith on December 19, 2015, 05:08:37 PM
This one is located in Alabama, I am still trying to find the foundry down south that was producing the best blacksmiths
firepot I have ever used, they were still in business a few years ago....I will keep looking...

http://www.imperialcastinginc.com/ (http://www.imperialcastinginc.com/)
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: Thob on December 19, 2015, 09:37:40 PM
And there's a foundry in Texas as well:

http://www.ociw.com/

Oil City Iron Works
They do foundry work, pattern making, molding, cast iron, machining, etc.

They are in Corsicana, which is just South of Dallas.
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: dieselgman on December 19, 2015, 09:52:29 PM
Thanks guys... if American iron can compete in small jobs, there is absolutely no reason not to keep the full manufacturing job close to home. We will query them all for some estimates to develop molds and tooling and come up with some $$ cost numbers to work with.

We almost purchased a defunct foundry in central Kansas a few years back... I spent a lot of time with developing a business plan around the idea but circumstance and financials prevented completion of the deal.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: TxBlacksmith on December 20, 2015, 03:57:39 AM
OCIW is the foundry partner that produces the TFS anvil series.  They have the reputation of being one of the finest anvils produced
for Blacksmiths today.  They are one of only 3 or 4 that are still produced in the USA.  Corsicana is only an hour away from me...
You would think I would have toured it by now...
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: contaucreek on December 21, 2015, 04:28:29 PM
Re micrometer, Starret makes a brail model. Im not shittin' ya, I saw it in their catalog.
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: dkeav04 on January 13, 2016, 10:02:47 PM
I think the main thing would be the price.  Listeroids are in the $2500-3000 range it seems now for indian quality.  If you could produce near dursley quality again and keep it as far under $5k a unit I think guys would go for that.  I know I would be quite interested.

I miss when all the great american companies had their own foundries even, like JI Case.  What a shame we have lost our manufacturing might.
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: George A on January 28, 2016, 12:28:24 AM
This is a fascinating possibility. Question though: The subject of "making molds" and their cost has been mentioned. Every iron works that I've seen (and every book on the subject) uses hand rammed sand molds. Are you talking about the patterns perhaps? A simple wooden pattern for a part is not that complicated and once made is good for many, many pours before it needs to be made again.

Crankshafts: This is (or should be) a forged part, not cast, so it might be necessary to source those from India since I think the cost here in the U.S. would be too great. Maybe not, but it's something to consider.

So, would these be finished kits, i.e. all machine work done or rough casting kits.....or maybe both? Lots of questions but you can bet I'll be keeping an eye on this post!
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: dieselgman on January 28, 2016, 03:14:42 PM
I have emailed and filled in web-forms for all of the mentioned small foundries... zero responses so far.

The Indian crank forgings have for the most part been quite good... maybe a bit of a tune up in the machining details and additional surface hardening will be required though.

I do not know the exact mold preparation procedures for these complex parts, but certainly a multi-step process involving reusable patterns will be indicated.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: broncodriver99 on January 28, 2016, 04:13:30 PM
I have emailed and filled in web-forms for all of the mentioned small foundries... zero responses so far.
dieselgman

That is a shame. It seems getting a call back is as hard as getting something made in the US these days. I usually just revert to calling manufacturers and going down the phone tree these days. Kicking an email down the road for another day seems to be the norm. Good luck and thanks for the work you are putting in on this.
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: 32 coupe on January 28, 2016, 11:23:30 PM
 
I worked in an aluminium foundry many years ago for short time.
I have been involved with tooling and machining, in one
form or another with many different materials, for most of
my life.

I would think these engines could be aluminum except for the
obvious crank, rod, wrist pin and most of the fuel system....etc...

Wood forms, or "patterns", and sand moulds would work fine.

Lets see,  crankcase, bearing holders, cylinder, crankcase door, intake, exhaust manifolds,
head, water manifolds, cast valve cover ( that would be nice ! ) and probably a few other parts
I have forgotten,  could be done here, in the USA. Other parts could be imported : crank,
rod, fuel system.....etc.

A Google search provided several aluminum foundrys across the USA.....

Any thoughts?

Gary



Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: dieselgman on January 28, 2016, 11:40:34 PM
To my knowledge, aluminum casting is far more expensive and technical than iron... and aluminum would require extra reinforcing webs in critical stress areas. I think that heavy iron may be the best thing for blocks and cylinders. Of course the valve covers and other plates could easily be of aluminum... valve covers always were.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: 32 coupe on January 29, 2016, 12:58:05 AM

Most aluminium products we see today are injection or pressure molded.

That requires expensive tooling and associated machinery.

The current liseroid models we see today are sand cast. That is ancient
technology.  There are companies in the states today that still use it.

The reference to strength I would question.  I would think the basic parts
would provide enough "meat" for crank case, cylinder, head.....etc.
 
Let me state here I am NOT an expert in metallurgy, but somewhat knowledgeable
about tools, tooling and setup.

Mostly just thinking out loud.

I'll amble off now,

Gary



Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: EdDee on January 29, 2016, 09:12:11 AM
Hmmmmm..... An "Aircraft Version" aluminum Lister.....
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: dieselgman on January 29, 2016, 01:45:21 PM
Also, think coefficient of thermal expansion, it will be significantly different changing from iron to aluminum. Aluminum alloys have been widely used in automotive engines where weight vs power is at a high premium and especially in some of the air-cooled Lister versions - not in the Lister crankcases and never the cylinders though - except for the little AC model which is designed and built around a desire for minimum weight and maximum portability. We like the heavy iron in our antiques...  :laugh:

dieselgman
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: LowGear on January 30, 2016, 07:31:14 PM
Weight just may be a stabilizing factor.  Not in the "Big is Beautiful" mantra.

Casey
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: Jake65mm on June 14, 2016, 02:47:58 PM
12/2 update, this engine is now on a skid and ready for cool springs. Leaving early tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: Jake65mm on June 14, 2016, 03:01:09 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/uRSvzSLl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/2x1u9R6l.jpg)
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 15, 2016, 05:55:15 AM
Very neatly done.
...can't help to wonder how you're going to move that...   :o How do you offload at the show? Do the organizers provide lifting equipment or are you left to your own devices?
(Video of it running?)
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: LowGear on June 15, 2016, 06:47:04 PM
Now that looks great. 
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: Jake65mm on June 18, 2016, 05:08:07 PM
The show I went to this week I just left it on the trailer and ran it there, I intend to buy a tilt deck to make loading and unloading a little easier. Or if I find a set heavy duty enough just put it on wheels.
Very neatly done.
...can't help to wonder how you're going to move that...   :o How do you offload at the show? Do the organizers provide lifting equipment or are you left to your own devices?
(Video of it running?)
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 18, 2016, 09:28:26 PM
I have a single axle trailer that I tilt for offloading. I'll take some pics of how I do it - but not anytime soon. I have lots more work to do before I can take the Lister for a ride...
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: glort on June 18, 2016, 11:56:26 PM
I have a single axle trailer that I tilt for offloading.

I do the same. Only unloaded a lister once but plenty of practice with IBC's full of veg oil.
Just load them slightly to the back of the trailer and put a car jack under the back on one side.  Chock wheels front and back.  Unhitch the trailer and then lower the back of the trailer in a controlled fashion.  Load slides out onto 4x2'S or whatever you want to put it on.  Unchock trailer wheels and pull trailer out.  Easy!

Loading can be done the same way with a winch to pull the load in but make sure what you are winching from ( such as front of trailer) is strong  enough or put in a reinforcement that is.
Never done it but I have seen people bend the front of their trailers from pulling on them and having mishaps though not having trailer wheels and ramps secured.  Seen a lot of people with big bikes try and ride them onto trailers on a ramp and then spit the unsecured ramp out when they get part way up which results in the bike ( and them) falling over or off the trailer. Not good ( or smart!) 

Think which way and what forces are taking place.
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: Jake65mm on August 17, 2016, 12:04:42 AM
Here is a video of either the first or second run still mounted on the factory skid. What a fun day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp5qRsRTL0s
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: starfire on August 17, 2016, 05:39:30 AM
re building engines

. You may have seen this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE_EDxV_rRc

Cheap and plentiful labour, non existent safety requirements, lots of cheap machinery. Ill try to find the foundry video, open channels of sand with rivers of  molten  iron, workers in shorts, barefooted and no goggles....... Find an iron foundry  in america that can get away with this, you are in with a chance....
Hell, even ,your environment people would prevent the use of such engines en mass....
The west simply cannot compete....

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-jD-lGouuE

Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: mike90045 on August 17, 2016, 08:37:06 AM
re building engines

. You may have seen this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE_EDxV_rRc

Cheap and plentiful labour, non existent safety requirements, lots of cheap machinery. Ill try to find the foundry video, open channels of sand with rivers of  molten  iron, workers in shorts, barefooted and no goggles....... Find an iron foundry  in america that can get away with this, you are in with a chance....
Hell, even ,your environment people would prevent the use of such engines en mass....
The west simply cannot compete....

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-jD-lGouuE

So painful to watch !
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: glort on August 17, 2016, 03:27:31 PM

Cheap and plentiful labour, non existent safety requirements, lots of cheap machinery. Ill try to find the foundry video, open channels of sand with rivers of  molten  iron, workers in shorts, barefooted and no goggles....... Find an iron foundry  in America that can get away with this, you are in with a chance....

I'm sorry but as much as it will tick a lot of people off, the west, ESPECIALLY Americans, have been sucked in and brainwashed aplenty by the saftey industry which has turned the hard men of steel into a pack of whining sissy cry babies that are ignorant and can't think for themselves.

EVERYTHING has to be about safety. Forget the fact that you are using something that can remove body parts in a flash, you HAVE to be wearing gloves becase they will protect you from everything where as if you are not, there is no possible chance you are going to survive another 2 min in the/ any work place.

When people see something from a 3rd world country where they aren't wrapped in safety gear that would do little if anything at all to protect them in what they are doing, oh geez! the world is ending.
Never do they stop to think in their ignorance that if that guy wearing sandals was burning or cutting his toes off every day he would be too stupid and ignorant not to put on shoes.  Likewise, if the guy was cutting his hands to ribbons he would be so stupid and brain dead that he couldn't work out he needed gloves.  Likewise, all the other people seeing other workers losing feet and arms etc on the supposed daily basis the safety Nazis make out, they too wouldn't go " Oh, Fk! we need to do something about this! "

The most important thing with safety is your brain and preventing the accident in the first place.  Yes, you can have an accident but 99% of the time, the things the safety sissys whine about arent going to save you.
I saw a doco about the Indian railways recently.  Of course the comments were filled with the same, inane and predictable safety drivel. You know what you moron, If that locomotive rolls over that guys foot or hand, it don't matter Wether he is wearing sandals, steel cap boots or 100 pair of gloves, he's still Fked!  If that pallet of concrete sleepers falls on his head, he'll want to be wearing a battle tank on his head because bit of cloth or hard hat is not going to make one shit of difference and that's what the guy is doing all day long.

To arrogantly profess these people are stupid because they don't have a fluro vest or gloves just shows the ignorance and contempt of the safety whingers in not giving people credit to be able to think for themselves. Just because that has become the corporate mentality of the west, does not make those whom have to look after themselves and are responsible for their own well being stupid, it makes US the fools. The whole " Saftey" brainwashing thing is nothing more than the advertising of a self serving industry that has way over stepped it's agenda and blown it's importance way out of proportion.
 
Yes, it is important to be safe but that doesn't start and stop with wearing Products.  They will only protect you from minor and recoverable injury's for the most part.  And for those that want to argue or carry on with more lofty crap, save it. I was at the police station this very morning with a detective giving a statement about someone that was killed on a work site last year that was wearing every bit of gear required and fell all of 9 ft.
So much for him wearing safety gear.

A friend of mine was telling me about an experience working in the outback mines.  He was saying how all small engines on pumps and generators and hydraulic units now all have to be diesel. He said how they also needed 2 men to lift by OH&S because of their weight. All petrol engines wherever possible are banned in the industry. I asked why that was? He told me that the cause happened at a part of a mine he worked at.
Some tool went to refill a petrol pump that had been going flat out and was hot. He didn't have a funnel and rather than get one, he slopped the petrol out of a jerry can. It went all over him and the engine and flashed on the hot muffler. He was badly burned ( what, not fire proof suit PPE??)  and as a result, they banned all petrol engines from the industry.

And this is how this safety crap works in the west. One idiot does something stupid so they assume everyone is as brain dead and brings in some arse covering rule to supposedly stop it happening again as if it happened every day.
I am not against working safely and I am not against safety gear. What I am against is the presumption that PPE protects one from all harm and anyone not wearing it is stupid or putting themselves at extreme and preventable risk. that is not the case no matter what sort of fabricated BS the safety zealots want to dream up rather than admit they are wrong, ignorant and have been brain washed.
Safety gear is fine but only to a point will it help save you.

These people in the 3rd world know they hurt themselves and can't work, their family starves or their kids start selling themselves on the street corner. No compo and insurance payouts for them to live fat and happy on after suing someone else for their own stupidity and lack of intelligence.  The mentality of the west these days is peoples personal responsibility is someone elses job, not theirs. No matter what stupid thing you do, it's someone else's fault you did it.

I get the safety nazi sissy whining little girls on  my YT vids all the time. There is no pleasing them with their safety crap. One I get a lot is because I don't wear gloves when welding or using a plasma cutter.
I did a vid which I think I accidentally deleted, with a sausage, glove and the plasma Cutter.  Stuck the sausage in the glove, turned the plasma right down, hit the glove with the start burst from the plasma and then pulled the meat out.  Clearly if your finger was in that thick leather glove, they are still probably just going to cut it off when you get to causality. The damage was severe and probably unrecoverable. Without the glove on the same test, The sausage looked better because for a start it didn't have all the burnt fibres from the glove blown into it and I think there was less burning due to no leather to combust and be blown into the wound. I'd still say a lost digit so the glove would do nothing other than possibly protect from minor burns..... which I very rarely get anyway. To my unscientific observation, in this particular scenario, the glove could very well result in a WORSE injury than not having it at all.
The downside for me in wearing a thick glove would be significant in having less feel, grip and control with what I was doing with the cutter which increased the chance of mishap.
  For me this out weighs the limited protection from minor and rare burns I get.

Gloves I could work in are not going to do squat to stop me removing a finger or the doctor having to remove it if I get into the " I'm wearing safety gear so don't have to use my brain" mode.
If I burnt or cut my hands repeatedly through not wearing gloves, do people really take it I am that goddam stupid I wouldn't put some on? No poverty/ can't afford them excuses in this case.
Like wise with the chain saw and log splitter. You really think a pair of gloves is going to let me keep my fingers if I put them in the way of a screaming 65CC driven tungsten chain or wedge them in the wrong place with a 50 ton splitter?  The thing is I DO wear gloves using the splitter. NOT for any stupid safety mantra but because I get splinters from the wood. Nothing to do with safety, it's a comfort thing. I hate splinters and the wood I split is loaded with them. I know there is a problem so I mitigate it. Were there is no problem I don't . Reasonable enough is it not?

The other place the safety zealots prove their stupidity and ignorance is they have to parrot the same drivel and crap no matter how many times it's already been said.  They can't give people the freedom to make their own choices, if it's not their way it's the wrong way.  Every time I get someone crapping on to me about misplaced safety garbage, I start whining at them for USING safety gear.  No one browbeats them for their choices, so why do they have to whine at me for mine?  I'm not in kindy now, I'm big and grown up and can vote and drink and...... Decide for myself what the risk factor of what I'm doing is and what precautions I need to take.
And that's another thing... I don't drink or smoke or do other things to my body that I have seen many of the safety brainwashed do. If I ridiculed them for their saturday night pissups at the local boozer, I'd be deluged with all sorts of things about free country, their choice, they can do what they want and if they get liver or kidney failure, it's their choice.
Funny how those same things don't apply in their narrow minds to others making choices for themselves about their welfare.

NEVER has one single safety whiner EVER  commented or given me a heads up about what I HAVE hurt myself with.  All they see is gloves and glasses and a hard hat and boots.  Never do they see or point out to anyone a real safety concern..... that trip hazard, the opposite reaction to the object being moved, the problem with sparking that wire on the terminal of that over worked battery or anything else... all things I often see but all the zealots crap on about is "gear".  To spot real danger requires actual thinking, experience and knowledge rather than just appearing to be smart by parroting the same old mindless drivel.  Yep, drop a 4 ton load on that one tone truck and as long as you are wearing Gloves, boots, glasses and a fluro vest, no risk or problem at all. You never see the safety sissy zealots say a thing about that!

The whingers do NOT give the flying ship they all pretend to have about anyone's welfare or well being. All they want to do is look smarter than they are by parroting something they have been brainwashed with before and fail to see where it outdoes it's usefulness and becomes nothing more than a marketing ploy for big business. Many others lambaste those that are not brainwashed as they are into thinking that all they have to do is don certain products and they are insulated from all harm.

Forget that guy has been working in that foundry 20 years, he must be some sort of 3rd world idiot who can't think for himself if he wears sandals.  Couldn't possibly be that he knows the risks and what he is doing and takes precautions the zealots can't even recognise for potential dangers they can't see.

I'd love to see the accident stats from these people that wear no PPE and work in these hash conditions and compare the numbers to the workers ( the few left) in the western world.
I'd bet my arse those peasants have a lot less injuries, sick days and over all workplace problems that the PPE OH&S brainwashed Westerners in anything like the same industry.
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: George A on August 17, 2016, 06:15:31 PM
I agree completely with ONE exception..........I always have some sort of eye protection on, even if it's only my reading glasses to see better. I've had a steel splinter in the eye and it's not something I want to experience again. I also do not wear rings, watches, long sleeves, etc. around my lathe or mill.........common sense for cryin' out loud. I also avoid earmuffs, hard hat, Kevlar safety suit, groin protection (?) etc. etc. Sure, I've had my share of minor cuts and bruises and, surprisingly, I learned to avoid those.

But aside from that, LEAVE ME THE **** ALONE! Go give your canned safety talk to people that will nod their robotic heads in agreement. I have work to do.

Another thought: If I wanted the cushiest job in the world, I'd be a "safety supervisor". You know, the guy that gets paid a six figure salary for sitting in his office studying new posters to put on the shop walls while he plans his next monthly safety meeting, advising men who have been doing their job safely for more years than he's been alive. Talk about a great career!
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: LowGear on August 17, 2016, 06:52:44 PM
Wow!

Donald Trump you are needed here.  Bravado recruits awaiting your wisdom. 

I have no idea how old the mind is before it starts thinking about tomorrow.  Mine jelled with the death of my father.  His early death was brought on by his decisions and choices but they were based on ignorance.  A dangerous place to plan for life.  Now that I've helped a few more people into the box of life I'm even more safety conscious with a stern eye on the long ball. 

The hard ball of ignorant safety planning is that in modern societies the people pay for the sickly and dying.  Those that are educated enough to keep away from dusts, chemicals and falling crap often find niches where the taxes are low and life is sweet on the golf course.

Life a mere 100 years ago was hard and most labor suffered from back trouble brought on by being walked upon.  Remember when the United States started Social Security 80 years ago the retirement age was set to 65 because few people lived that long.  Now the median age is over 65.  Just shows how stupid we've become.

Casey
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: mike90045 on August 17, 2016, 07:11:55 PM
(for me the painful part was the fellow with the sledge hammer working on the crankshaft)
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: starfire on August 17, 2016, 11:16:12 PM
Here in NZ, we have a fascination for high visibility jackets, those plastic floppy things in florescent colours that get tangled in everything. They are so common that they go unnoticed. Yesterday I saw a sign above a door way in our local engineering shop that  said " caution, low doorway" Im now expecting any day now  signs reading "caution, sign ahead"
Didnt mean to derail this topic though, but this worksafe crap is over the top now, one reason the Chinese can take us over economically, the other of course being western greed of shipping the manufacturing offshore and still reaping the short term profits. Hats off to China, India....good on them,  we deserved it through our own stupidity.
They get the job done that we can no longer do.  I see too that even in a legislated "safe" cotton wool environment, the stats in America say one in 5 is morbidly obese, 1 in 7 is hooked on drugs...... perhaps they need a safety sign and poster  for that too.
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: glort on August 18, 2016, 09:34:56 AM
I agree completely with ONE exception..........I always have some sort of eye protection on, even if it's only my reading glasses to see better. I've had a steel splinter in the eye and it's not something I want to experience again. I also do not wear rings, watches, long sleeves, etc. around my lathe or mill.........common sense for cryin' out loud.

EXACTLY!
Real risks, realistic action to prevent known problems. I have glasses everywhere so there is always a pair lying round when I want them. Like you, I don't even consider that safety, it's just plain common sense. Glasses will prevent you loosing an eye, Gloves won't prevent you loosing a finger.  It's like looking before you cross the road, I'd call that basic common sense as well.  I wouldn't consider not doing it to be unsafe, it's Suicide!
You never hear the safety sissy's say don't wear rings or jewellery.  Probably because that's not something the safety industry parrots because they don't make a buck out of it and the zealots are too stupid and inexperienced to understand what the danger with them is.

A long gone uncle is best remembered in my family for loosing a finger when he was working for the phone company. His wedding ring shorted out on a 2 Volt bus bar that was connected to a mega amp battery bank.
Cooked his finger to the bone before he could free his finger and the ring melted breaking the connection.

Quote
I also avoid earmuffs, hard hat, Kevlar safety suit, groin protection (?) etc. etc. Sure, I've had my share of minor cuts and bruises and, surprisingly, I learned to avoid those.
Agreed again. These are not debilitating injuries or ones that cannot be easily over come. Anything more serious the safety gear is not going to prevent anyway.

Quote
But aside from that, LEAVE ME THE **** ALONE! Go give your canned safety talk to people that will nod their robotic heads in agreement. I have work to do.

Another thought: If I wanted the cushiest job in the world, I'd be a "safety supervisor". You know, the guy that gets paid a six figure salary for sitting in his office studying new posters to put on the shop walls while he plans his next monthly safety meeting, advising men who have been doing their job safely for more years than he's been alive. Talk about a great career!

Yep, you make your choices, let me make mine and give me the credit for having got myself further along in life doing what I do since before you were born.
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: 38ac on August 18, 2016, 02:40:10 PM
One problem with your theory Glort, it requires a person to accept personal responsibility for his actions, afraid that isn't going to happen. It always somebody else s fault don't ya know???? ???

 I completely agree with your views on this nonsense but we are in a shrinking minority, I saw a women last week running a string line trimmer in her yard and she was wearing a forestry helmet with full face shield (eye protection good idea) and earmuffs( good idea)  plus chaps such as worn when running a chainsaw ;D, Elbow length heavy duty gloves ;D Carhart type insulated coveralls( it was 95 out)  ???  Knee high heavy duty boots PLUS had one of those green red safety vest on and EXACTLY what you just said came to my mind,,,,,  You are obviously a blooming idiot and your going to find a way to get hurt in spite of looking like a fool wearing all that garb,,,
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: overbore on August 18, 2016, 03:42:02 PM
HEAT STROKE!    IT WAS 96 IN HOTLANTA YESTERDAY.
overbore
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: LowGear on August 18, 2016, 07:26:23 PM
Quote
I completely agree with your views on this nonsense but we are in a shrinking minority, I saw a women last week running a string line trimmer in her yard and she was wearing a forestry helmet with full face shield (eye protection good idea) and earmuffs( good idea)  plus chaps such as worn when running a chainsaw Grin, Elbow length heavy duty gloves Grin Carhart type insulated coveralls( it was 95 out)  Huh  Knee high heavy duty boots PLUS had one of those green red safety vest on and EXACTLY what you just said came to my mind,,,,,  You are obviously a blooming idiot and your going to find a way to get hurt in spite of looking like a fool wearing all that garb,,,

Of course, once she finished setting the sprinkler she went back to pushing her dead beat husband's corpse through the industrial chipper that was being repossessed the next day.  ;)

This tread does remind me of my brother laughing at my respirator and googles spray painting costume.  He couldn't hear me talking to his doctor about the final solution as he chocked to death on his own bodily fluids due to advanced emphysema two months before dying.  A very tough two months.  It was almost like being water-boarded a half dozen times a day. 

Best wishes to you on your life choices,

Casey
Resident Wuss, 
Land Mark Decisions

I'm still dreaming of a Lister twin pumping my lungs full of spent vegetable oil.  Is it as hard on your health as spent diesel?
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: glort on August 19, 2016, 08:34:34 AM
One problem with your theory Glort, it requires a person to accept personal responsibility for his actions, afraid that isn't going to happen.

That's kinda the thing with me.
I have hurt myself plenty of times. Never anthing any safety gear would have prevented or generally things that could have been foreseen.  One of the most annoying was getting dressed in the loungeroom and reaching up to put on a T-shirt and sticking my hand in the ceiling fan. Did not do my finger any good at all!
Thing is though, I wouldn't think to blame anyone for what i do to myself except me. When the safety sissys start preaching their over the top safety crap and take the decision making for my own well being away from me, I get ticked off and insulted.

 
Quote
I saw a women last week running a string line trimmer in her yard and she was wearing a forestry helmet with full face shield .....
I have noticed this more and more of late. People just mowing the lawn but decked out like they are going to fight WWIII!  I Don't mow or tim unless I have long pants on. Not a safety thing to me, common sense and comfort. I do find it painful when the weed walloper sprays my legs with rocks so I do something about it. Likewise I have on generally sunglasses.  I think people are sensible wearing boots, especialy the steel cap kind.

But there is a limit and the way some of these people kit themselves out just to mow the lawn..... It's undeniable they safety industry has brainwashed them into a paranoid panic and blown the risks of a simple job out of all sensible proportion.

There is a big difference between common sense and over the top paranoia.
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: 38ac on August 19, 2016, 11:22:12 AM
Casey, 
 I am not a cave man and am VERY susceptible to ISO.  If I drive by a body shop and get a strong whiff  I am in immediate breathing trouble. However I do paint with hardened paints.  I  run a full helmet with supplied air and full skin protection.  I am a nut about eye protection due to my father loosing an eye in an accident.  I do this by choice, not because some government nark is telling me to do so.
 AT work we are choked by regulations that slow the productive and dont protect the stupid from being stupid, they are still stupid, dont accomplish anything and find way to get hurt when they accidentally get too close to something being done.  That Woman using the trimmer is a classic example. SHe sure wasnt going to get hurt by that trimmer but I wonder if she made it through the job without suffering heat exhaustion??? Common sense, there is nothing to replace it.
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: deeiche on August 19, 2016, 02:51:32 PM
"they" really don't want us to work.

day job is senior network engineer, we have a lab where we evaluate new equipment.  There is both 110 and 220 PDUs located in equipment racks, been that way for 25 years.  A couple weeks ago someone, who was escorted by a regular into the lab, plugged 110 power strip into 220 PDU, tripped lab breaker.  First time this has ever occurred, 'cause regulars know the difference.

We had to have a meet with safety regarding the incident.  Safety engineer first suggested we move all the PDUs to their own racks, and run power in NEW overhead cable trays.  They grudgingly accepted labelling voltage on the different PDUs.  I gave up trying to explain everyone working in the lab should recognize different receptacles and we should hold the person who escorted the idiot responsible   The escorting individual ended up getting rewarded for writing a good lessons learned document.  We don't hold anyone responsible for bad decisions any more.
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: LowGear on August 19, 2016, 07:12:25 PM
Spending most of my life I as a one man show has insulated me from the safety gestapo. 

Good Luck.

Casey
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: dieselgman on August 19, 2016, 07:51:10 PM
One of my many job descriptions is a maintenance trainer. I have to try and protect the uninitiated youngsters (as well as old-timers) from injury or death when operating and maintaining dangerous machinery and electrical systems. Of course, their employers must comply with OSHA (occupational safety) regulation and numerous other agencies who are seeking and promoting various agendas. Personally, I have no particular problems with regulation that promotes the welfare and common good of the workers... most of it makes sense and is applicable to the situations that commonly occur on the job. Some of them prevent the employers from short-cutting procedures and principles of common safety and might even result in reduced job-related illness and injury.

Ultimately the results will depend on the actions and choices made by the individual. I always teach to personal responsibility for conditions or results, and that said, I don't believe you can really teach common-sense. Much of it comes from experience and applied knowledge. Some learn from their experiences... maybe others should not be playing with fire!

dieselgman
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: MichaelU on August 31, 2016, 06:57:28 PM
I am from the Cleveland, Ohio area and there are foundries left around here. ELyria Foundry is one of the larger ones who could handle that order. Also there are smaller foundries that do casting work for sculptors around here as well. That might be worth asking them

Cheers
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: Jake65mm on September 05, 2017, 03:10:38 PM
I finally got the material all cut, welding jigs made, and the wheels are tacked together. I hope to have the undercarriage and steering components completed by the weekend.
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: Jake65mm on September 05, 2017, 03:11:48 PM
I went with a wider rear wheel with a double spoke pattern for the lister
Title: Re: Lister 12/2 uncrating pictures
Post by: Bpineo on September 07, 2017, 03:09:43 AM
Lunnenburg castings are hideous; full of inclusions and just awful.  I have had great luck with the Tomahawk Foundry in Rice Lake Wisconsin for all of my gray iron casting for both engines and stoves.  I once had a firebox cast that had eight cores to pour it correctly.  They did the job perfectly and in just two weeks time!  The iron was super easy to machine and had no stress when it arrived.  Send parts to Tomahawk Foundry if they are large or long run, and to Blue hills castings Inc. if they are one off or very small.  Same address, different process:  2337 29th st. Rice Lake WI (I think the zip is 54868.  Speak with Allan, and the prices are quite affordable.