Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: EdDee on October 14, 2015, 10:16:45 AM

Title: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on October 14, 2015, 10:16:45 AM
Hi Guys,

I am a "Newbie" to this forum, although I have been lurking on and off for some time as a guest. I am submitting a path of action and I would like some forecasts as to the eventual outcome from you highly experienced gents who have been down this road before. As always, experience is the best teacher and i would love to hear what you think would happen.

The scenario is as follows:
1)Take delivery of a new listeroid CS12/1
2)Do the absolute minimum prep work on the engine, check and set spill timing(A little advanced from the original 18deg to around the 20deg mark), check and set Valves, Quick Clean of Crankcase inner, Fill with Oil and diesel, Bleed injector system, Change governor spring and de-rate to 750RPM from the original 1000RPM
3)Install onto Chassis with a 7.5KW genhead driven by 2 v-belts from the Flywheel rim(No Grooves) and install a radiator with thermosyphon circulation and electrical fan assist with temperature switch.
4)Run one tank of diesel thru the engine under moderate load (2.5-3Kw) for basic break in.
5)Install a basic water injection system on the inlet manifold, install a Donaldson air filter in place of the junk filter that was supplied with the engine.
6)Break most of the rules with exhaust routing(Down 1m, Across 2m, Up 1/2m Across 1m, Up 3m or so and for giggles add another 90degree bend or 2 after all of this to get the exhaust to go where i want it)
7)Start, stop and run on WMO thereafter, highly varying load conditions, from 1.5Kw to a max of 7.5Kw for short periods, average load about about 2.5 to 3Kw.

Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: dieselgman on October 14, 2015, 01:54:27 PM
A couple quick responses...

1.) Do not buy a 12/1 if you want to run 750 rpm - just buy an 8/1 (850rpm) and slow it to your desired speed. This may require some adjustments to flywheel balance to make her stable.

2.) Running at 750 rpm is only going to produce barely 4kW (if that)- even if you start with the 12/1. So your high-end loading expectations will need to be adjusted accordingly.

The rest is a crap shoot with varying and unpredictable Indian assembly and QC practices as we have all observed. I have heard of a few folks assembling and running without modification and without complaint... but far too many who have found problems to remedy on close internal inspection.

dieselgman
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: Combustor on October 14, 2015, 03:25:34 PM
Hi there EdDee,
                      Carefully read as much as you can on the topic of burning WMO in the threads on this site and others, and then make up your mind as to whether it is for you.  Some report good results but others have sad tales to tell, as there are many variables and unknowns with its use. Factors affecting results include
Source and type of oil
Contamination with unsuitable oils, (synthetics, gear lubes. coolants, fuels etc.
Blend ratio's, with diesel, heating oil, kero, jet fuel, RUG, other secret brews,
Heavy metal residues, (cause deposits and abrasive wear),
Your ability to achieve fine filtration and remove residual water/detergent "goo"
Possible need to preheat to keep flowing in cold weather
Legalities of transporting and storing, in some places, once oil is used, it is classified as Dangerous Goods.

If you can secure a source of an un-contaminated oil of a single type,then it may be worth some careful trials but be prepared for a lot of research and experiment and learn from other
users who have succeeded.  Also look into waste veg oil as fuel or the possibility of turning it into bio-diesel. Either way, you will need a lot of spare time.
          Do not listen to anyone who says you can build a refining setup that will turn WMO into diesel. It is a very hazardous process,not very successful and illegal almost anywhere.
Good luck.
 
Combustor.
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: EdDee on October 14, 2015, 05:27:00 PM
Thanks Gman and Combustor, points noted!

 I prepare my fuel (WMO) by heating it to around 110 to 120C and stirring it around to boil off water. Thereafter I let it settle overnight and decant the top 2/3 to a holding tank (through a 5micron filter) where it can further rest till I need to use it. I guess I have just been lucky so far in my choice of bits to put the whole setup together.

There is quite a bit more to my setup than the above description of my first post, but it is essentially, in its basics, pretty much as described. My reason for posting the What If, was to get an honest, genuine opinion of what to avoid and what I could expect. Somehow, my numbers as calculated, came out pretty much similar to what you have recommended, but in reality, I am able to draw power off the unit well above what has been predicted. Initial estimates came up around the 4kw mark which is around the 18A mark at 220V... I can and do peak load at about 25 to 30A with the exhaust only just starting to smoke. So far I have racked up quite a few hours and nothing has gone bang....Yet...

Any further reccomendations would be awesome! I am a slow learner, so repeat often and no offence will be taken... ;D
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: dieselgman on October 14, 2015, 05:49:19 PM
Perhaps you have a 12/1 that is more than I initially assumed. Usually I thought they were the same displacement engines as the 6/1 and 8/1 - just run up to 1,000rpm to get the extra power. If yours has a larger bore and/or stroke, then it would be able to make more power at 750 rpm than what I had guessed at. Our 18/1 units run at 750rpm... just have a lot more cubic inches to make the extra power.

dieselgman
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: Tom on October 14, 2015, 06:01:14 PM
Been there, done that and don't do it any more. Motor oils are high in ash, when it's burned the ash is left behind and grinds up the rings and cylinder walls. The ash also collects on the tip of the injector as a little stalactite and messes up the spray pattern. And surprising the abrasiveness of WMO ground up the internals of a IP and injector. I tried blends, settling and filtering. The only success I've read is using a centrifuge or making your own distillery. I don't use enough fuel in a year to justify the cost of a centrifuge, so now I'm back to off-road diesel.

You will find that starting on WMO in cold weather is difficult and gets more difficult as the engine rapidly wears. I also had problems with deposits on valve stems causing sticking when cold. If you're going to run non-stop for long periods you might do better than I did. My typical run is 4-8 hours charging batteries. Order lots of spare parts with your engine if you're going to try this and depend on it for power.
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: EdDee on October 14, 2015, 06:32:21 PM
Gman, i think u are right about this unit.... i havent had the lid off yet so i cant confirm though...

I am currently just over the 1k hour mark on this engine and so far, touch wood, its holding up well. Most of its life so far, has been running on WMO of the worst possible kinds I can find. Tomorrow we go to collect 1000L of old truck sump oil to burn off in her! That should keep her spinning for a while... I am burning off the oil to generate electricity and heat water for the household, but, mainly to dispose of it in a more environment friendly and useful way.

Of exhaust smoke and carboning has been very little, a little bit of water down the inlet on a constant basis seems to be working well. I never shut down the water supply, it is drawn into the manifold by induction stroke and the level of the float bowl is such that when the motor stops, so does the water. The average run lasts around 12 or more hours.

The worst wear on the injection system happened on day one - a tank of store bought, water contaminated diesel was put in... not enough to stop the engine, but enough to stuff things up quite niceley when it stood overnight in the IP... a strip and clean out, smoothing off the rough bits ensued, back up and running albeit a bit hard to start with low IP pressure.. now running on 30 to 40W oil, IP pressure is up and going! I don't preheat the fuel oil as it seldom falls into the single figure C temps here, even in mid winter...

The only major-ish failure experienced thus far was electrical of nature, a bit of creative rerouting solved that...

Tom, what is your definition of rapid wear due to ash and deposits, 100,500, or more? I am trying to work out if I have been lucky so far, or if the mushroom cloud is just over the horizon!

It looks like this thing would run on peanut butter and grease if I could get it into the pump.... Uncle Otto would be proud....
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: Tom on October 14, 2015, 09:26:06 PM
Going from memory here, but there was a pretty good ridge on a liner in about 200 hours. There was a pretty good amount of blowby coming out the breather too. Never did try continuous water injection as I hadn't heard about doing that while I was doing the WMO experiment. On the Micro-Cogen board Glort swears by it so you may be on to something there.
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: dieselgman on October 14, 2015, 09:45:50 PM
Caterpillar and the US Air Force have used their waste diesel lube oils as fuel. Cat used to recommend up to 5% waste mixed with the diesel fuel, and in fact offered a third-party system for stationary engines that continuously fed the oil into the fuel supply side of the system. The Air Force experimented with up to 15% as I recall reading... and with good results. Neither of them recommended using any kind of contaminated waste stocks though, and nothing except for lubricating oil out of a diesel engine.

dieselgman
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: glort on October 15, 2015, 01:21:15 AM

I haven't done much at all with WMO but in my considerable experience ( 11 years this month) of running everything I could on Veg oil, the main difference between success and otherwise is the pre of the fuel.

I have come across several people first hand that have sworn they prep their fuel like nectar of the gods but when you actually see what they are producing and the mistakes they are making not realising, things can be very different.
I have come to pride myself on breaking the great majority of the parroted veg mantra rules and NEVER having any of the trouble that people profess with gloom and doom that makes out my vehicles won't make it round the block.  I keep everthing dead simple and straightforward. The problem is most people just do what the guy before them did who copied the guy before them who also didn't have a clue so he copied.... and NONE of these Pelicans ever think about WHY they are doing something and what the effects it may have in THEIR conditions and environment.

There is also the universal internet forum mentality that anything not in the prescribed and approved thinking box must be bad.  People that have never tried something will rant and rave about how bad it is based on nothing more than their baseless personal opinions.

One thing that always sticks in my mind with what we are talking about here is engine prep.  Us " westerners" believe that these engines have to be stripped down and rebuilt properly before turning them over but I wonder what happens in the places they are made for. I'd guarantee they don't rebuild them out of the crate which leads me to believe they must get some sort of decent service out of the things or people wouldn't buy them.  These peasants could not be able to afford a new engine even every year so I wonder how they get on with their factory engines run as delivered?

I also think a lot of the success of alternate methods is just how well someone understands what they are doing and ultimately how engines work. I have seen people going to a lot of trouble and effort on things that wouldn't make an iota of difference but then doing other things that make you cringe because they just don't have a real mechanical feel for things. There is a mantra you can't run a diesel below rated RPM because it fouls and there isn't enough lubrication etc and to that I say a wholesome Poppycock!

Industry is full of engines of the exact same type being run at all different levels. I was only having dinner the other night with a mate who is in the navy who was telling me how they have the same engine in different applications and some are de rated and run at 1/3rd the speed of others with no more modification out the crate than to set the governor lower.  Often they do this for longevity because the engine is under less stress over all.  I have run my little air and water cooled stationary diesels quite slow for many hours and never had a problem.  Again I think its how you do it and the unspoken understanding you have of the engine and what you are doing with it.

As far as the water injection goes, yes, I'm a complete disciple. I have proven to myself over and over how well it works, even sometimes without knowing.  I have blown a fuse on pumps and thought the car isn't running that well only to discover the WI had stopped.  I have put it on vehicles when I got them and noticed how much they have improved over several months performance wise and even put it on my wifes car unbeknownst to her and got questioned later, what did I do to the car, it's going so much better lately.   This is the stuff that you know is fact not just wishful thinking in seeing the result you are wanting.

I'm very much into the keep it simple thing here and don't believe for a second all the manufacturer and kit maker spiel of vapour fine droplets through micro nozzles at 500 PSI is at all needed in diesel CLEANING applications.  Yes, if you are trying to squeeze 1000 HP out of your 7.2 and stop it grenadeing, -may be a different thing but for diesel engine maintenance, just dribble it in there and you will be more than fine. That's all I have done for 10 years.  You also do not need to complicate things with variable output according to RPM or anything else people seem to have an inbuilt necessity to complicate and make more expensive and prone to failure.  A simple drip on a stationary engine or a squirt at full throttle on an NA engine or kick in on boost on a turbo and you are there. 

I recently pulled down one of my little china diesels and was stunned at how clean the thing was. It's had a diet of WVO and some WMO a while back and I kid you not when I say there was NO carbon in the thing at all. I mean like I wiped my finger on the piston and head and my finger did not even get black.  I'm still trying to figure out how this is even possible and would have been reluctant to believe it had it not been an engine I ran and pulled apart not 30 min later. If ever I needed any proof of the cleaning effectiveness of WI, I sure got it with that display.

I do credit WI to a lot of what I get away with on my vehicle. I believe that things I may do that would have a detrimental effect are countered and cleaned up by the WI. One thing ATM is having the engine fuelled right up. On veg smoke mean unburnt fuel which means gunk that will carbon up rings and kill the engine.  I'm running mine way rich and have the water running hard too but there is no sign of the thing having any detrimental effects. In fact what has happened is since I turned the water and the fuel up, I have noticed that the thing got easier to start over about a month even though the weather was getting colder. Now I'm back to straight oil and the thing fired in a couple of turns and stabilises very quick.

I have made WI systems with nothing more than a windscreen washer bottle and pump squirting through a bit of flattened copper tube ( which is the " Injector" on my vehicle presently and has been for 3 years) and its worked and shown marked benefits.  With the addition of some ethanol, the power levels of an engine can be bumped right up without having to worry about high EGT's and other problems.  When I have the fuel cranked and running booze, my truck performs stupidly well for a vehicle of it's type and no modifications.  I also notice the Alcohol seems to have a lasting effect on performance even when the WI system is back to pure water. I have not come up with an explanation for this but seen it many times.  My best guess is that perhaps the combination of the water and alcohol somehow cleans the exhaust and muffler passages making the exhaust breathe a bit better till it gets a load of carbon again?

For Veg, adding 5-10% ULP is also a big help. I suspect the lower compression ignition of the ULP compensated for the delayed ignition of the veg oil and brings the timing back closer to where the engine is set for it. I don't have enough experience with WMO to know if it would have the same effect but I suspect the thinning effect of the ULP would be helpful and probably help clean any deposits as well.

As far as WMO causing wear, I can see a possibility on the combustion chamber side. WMO burns to about 10% ash. WVO is maybe 5% and diesel/ kero/ ULP is basically zero. The ash may  be enough to cause wear in the cylinder but I think the majority is blown out like as with WVO.   Causing wear in the IP I find unlikley with properly cleaned oil.  Many IPS such as Bosch inlines are oil lubricated and I have my reservations that a fluid that was running through bearings and on camshafts etc is going to cause undue wear in an IP.  The lube value of oil is many times that of diesel for a start and if filtered to 5 or less UM, it would be a lot cleaner than what an oil filter will pass.



Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: EdDee on October 15, 2015, 10:44:12 AM
Thanks for the replies, Tom,Gman and Glort.
Gman: I remove as much contamination through filtering, settling and boiling as i can - so far it seems to be working. On the tank i again have a fine filter that hopefully takes out some more solids to make it passable...

Tom: So far there is little blow by, maybe a tad more than from new, but nothing to be alarmed about as yet....hold thumbs!!

Glort:Agreed with the prep of the fuel, that does make an enormous difference - the one batch that was from a trusted source is the one batch that caused the most problems so far! Agreed re the parrotted mantras, but, this happens in all walks of life, its a bit of the "Herd Instinct" coming to the fore i would think...

A Little common sense does seem to go a long way, often though, common sense isnt so commonly available!!

Water injection has made a big, and i mean a really big difference to the running of junk fuels in my case - before it was installed, carbon started to build up at an alarming rate and that coupled with a badly timed injection system started things down a path of early failure. At first I was under the impression that the fuel was wholly at fault, installed WI and things improved, or at the very least didnt get worse. Found the timing bolt had shifted from it's painted to lock it in position, retimed the injection and used the previously unused lock nut to lock it in place...been running ever since.... I did not decarbon after the initial SNAFU, but with the water in place, carbon has definitely reduced both in the injector area and the exhaust system... What a pleasure!!

I have the option of adding all sorts of PLC's and advanced systems to monitor and control - my opinion is that these are most likely to cause problems in the future - Listers run for decades and have run for decades without them - simple is best I reckon - I have yet to see a 10 year old PLC still in full operation in a Lister environment...

The WMO I am using has everything from Dino, ULP to ATF and Paraffin mixed - little water or coolant as such - I simply keep the Visco around the 25-35 mark and it burns well - or appears to be so far .... Time will tell!

I have been expecting early cylinder/ring failure because of ash in the burnt residue - so far compression is reasonable to good, little blow by so Poseidon is doing his work(I hope) to help rid the exhaust stroke of nasty bits!!

I have also expected IP and Injector problems due to the junk fuel - I am still sitting with a brand new Injector tip and 2xFuel pump elements as spare, waiting to install should the need arise, due to erosion by acidic WMO - It looks like the 100+C heating/cooling/settling routine is ridding the WMO of water and as such is limiting the effectiveness of the acids...

My general thoughts on the lister motor are that it was designed to be simple, with simple maintenance, with simple fuels, to be run by the common man - with todays tech we are inducing more problems through our own cautiousness, albeit inadvertently, that the simple things are being overlooked and we expect the tech to take the place of the basic needs of the engine - Coolant, Fuel, Lubrication, Tight Bolts and dont let the first three mix amongst themselves!!

My WI system is simplicity itself - controlled level float bowl(Made from bits of an old chicken waterer), gravity fed from a water hopper, with a 1/8" pipe feeding in just in front of the valve stem(guestimated) - it draws water droplets in on induction with not enough water induced to allow for a wet exhaust or enough to cause problems with milking the oil.... every now and then i give it a good flush by choking the inlet to the air filter and it seems to keep things running quite clean - this is done for about 2 mins every couple of days or so... no schedule, no need, just like running the steam engine for giggles... It blows a lot of grey steam out the stack so that tells me it must be cleaning something out which cant be bad!! Lol....

I would like to try WVO, but that is in short supply in my areas, all piping etc is WVO ready, with dual tank and filters just waiting....

Anyways, enough rambling from my side.... time to earn a living i guess... 800L of fuel gunk just arrived, so i better get cooking!!

L8rs
E
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: Gippslander on October 15, 2015, 01:03:25 PM


.  These peasants could not be able to afford a new engine even every year so I wonder how they get on with their factory engines run as delivered?





That is a interesting question. Maybe there are lots of little listeroid repair shops in India and Pakistan .  Mike
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: dieselgman on October 15, 2015, 01:42:58 PM
I have seen them running pumps and concrete mixers over in India - basically in a big pile of dirt, and seemingly doing just fine. Spare parts are almost dirt cheap there and they can rebuild in an afternoon with a few hand tools and a big hammer.

dieselgman
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: 38ac on October 15, 2015, 02:27:52 PM
Not many deep mechanical thinkers live as peasants, a large part of the equation.

 From what I hear back from missionaries working in third world areas they don't,  as in  run very long. There are heaps of non running engines and equipment scattered about that need only minor repair, some of it next to new.
Another answer is those same penniless peasants that buy a cheap engine also have to buy fuel to make them run and the engines don't get run many hours. An engine that runs for 30 minutes once a week gets 26 hours a year thus a 100 hour life span engine is a four year engine. vs a 4 day engine on 24/7 operation.

My sampling of Indian engines is small compared to some, maybe 30 in total but fewer than 25% of them were free of some defect that would seriously lower a western type life expectancy. At least 1/4 of them had a major defect that was a guarantied failure with in a very short time span.  Maybe they send all the garbage here and the good ones are sold third world? I don know? This is  just my experience.




 These peasants could not be able to afford a new engine even every year so I wonder how they get on with their factory engines run as delivered?

/quote]





Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: veggie on October 15, 2015, 03:03:38 PM
As a person who imported many (from two different suppliers) I can tell you that I did not see a single engine that did not need some work.

1]The most common ailment was a poorly fitted con rod bearing. Usually waaaay too much clearance (like 10 to 15 thou") which would cause bearing destruction in short order.
I made a point of changing them out immediately or giving the buyer a new set of shells,
Many uneducated buyers would not notice the con-rod knock mixed in with the rest of the engine noise and many users of listeroids put little few hours on them so it would take some time for un-serviced bearing shells to raise an issue.

2]The second most common thing I noticed was cylinder liner protrusion above the deck. While 0.005" is the desired number, I saw many at 0.020" and this made it hard for the head gasket to seal the water passages because the cyl. head sat higher than it should. A thick gasket and a lot of lacquer at the factory got them to pass the run test.

Listeroids can be (and are) good engines if given a bit of attention at the start. And the price of spares certainly makes them good candidates for alternative fuels.
So go for it ! The cost of a set of rings and an injector may be greatly offset by the savings in fuel cost. Each person's methods and setup is different so you have to do the math and see if it works for you.
Oh...and the hobby factor ! sometimes it's just so much fun that the $$$ don't matter (within reason)  ;D

cheers,
veggie
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: 38ac on October 15, 2015, 03:22:11 PM
many users of listeroids put little few hours on them so it would take some time for un-serviced bearing shells to raise an issue.


cheers,
veggie


That's my experience also, lots of indian engines around. Most owned by hobbyists with ideas that never got done. There are a few around that have some amount of hours on them and virtually none (by percentage) that have a history of long and hard work behind them.
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: EdDee on October 15, 2015, 05:05:09 PM
Lets see how long this one of mine lasts, I am going to continue running it as long as it runs...I should have over 1200 hrs on it by month end if it lives that long... Last check was around 1000 as we stand now... I run it about 12 to 15 hrs a day... Hold thumbs!

She was running a bit smokey earlier today, very light pale grey, pushing about 5kW while processing the fuel gunk, boosted the water intake for an hour or so and she is breathing cleanly again... (Probs ran upwards of 40 or 50L maybe more of water through the intake in 90 mins)

Maybe I am just one of the lucky ones - I make her work hard and long - she seems to like it!!

From my little experience so far, it seems as if these girls like a long hard run to keep ticking over - anything less than about 4hrs per session leads to oil fouling and the like, with the associated induced faults to go with it - My unit only "calms down" after about 1/2 an hour of running and gets to full grunt after about an hour.... Coolant temps are within working limits quite quickly, but the lower case is barely warm for the first while... go figure...
 ;)
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: glort on October 16, 2015, 02:44:05 AM

The WMO I am using has everything from Dino, ULP to ATF and Paraffin mixed - little water or coolant as such - I simply keep the Visco around the 25-35 mark and it burns well - or appears to be so far .... Time will tell! 

When I first got into veg fuels I bought this crappy old heap ( and I can say with honesty my wife pushed me to buy it) and didn't expect it would last the rest of the rego.  In hindsight it was the best thing I ever did. Instead of being like everyone else pedantic about not hurting their engine, with me it became an experiment to see what would within reason. Nothing did. I tried WMO, ATF and blends of everything under the sun including industrial offset print washing solvent ( that was pretty damn good actually!) with up to 4 different components. I never had a problem with any of it.  I made sure it was filtered properly and there was no water and that was it.

Doing this also showed me what a lot of Bunk 95% of the veg oil mantra was. Heating the oil or not heating makes NO difference save for making the stuff flow through the fuel lines. I don't even agree with heating it to do that, much better to blend it with petrol/kero or diesel for those cold months when/ if it won't flow on it's own.

I also don't get this thing where people rant on about water in WMO.  It's drained from the sump, how would water get in there? The car would have to have a cracked block or blown head gaskets and I'm 99% sure the amount of vehicles getting around like that are not significant and even if they had that problem, there would still not me many dropping water in the oil.
I think the fuss made of this is mainly by people who are talking from their own fears rather than practice.
My father has a wrecking yard I get the oil from for my burners and I have yet to see ANY water in it yet.

Perhaps an amount of my success with breaking all the veg oil mandates is I Dry my fuel very thoroughly. Many people believe that settling alone will dry veg but that is totally incorrect. Veg will absorb dissolved water unlike other oils and although the large droplets will fall to the bottom, the amount of water in the oil can still be significant. To me drying is far more important than filtering. If you have wet oil it goes through your pump and injectors and causes all sorts of problems.  These problems will be unseen till the damage is significant and affects performance and cost thousands to fix.
If you have dirty oil, you get a blocked filter. Change the filter for $10 and it's good to go again.

I would think that potential damage to components aside, some water in the fuel would be a good thing. When I have not dried my oil through accident or intention, the performance fall off of the vehicles has been very noticeable. I can only put this down to the fuel metering is changed as there is a component of water rather than fuel.  With water injection I get the opposite result in performance improvement. I did tests on my first heap with and without WI and got a repeated over several different occasions result of 3/4 of a second IMPROVEMENT in 0-30 MPH times.


Quote
I have been expecting early cylinder/ring failure because of ash in the burnt residue - so far compression is reasonable to good, little blow by so Poseidon is doing his work(I hope) to help rid the exhaust stroke of nasty bits!!

When I was first looking at running WVO, this was something I questioned.  If you get a tablespoon of Diesel or bio or petrol and burn it over a blow torch, they all burn with no residue. WVO and WMO leave significant ash.
WVO first changes to a tar then a carbon like substance. Easy to see how this could stuff up piston rings.  For this reason I started running the WI in order to stop those deposits forming and remove any that had.
I notice when I first get a "new" car and fit the WI, the performance gradually improves. Might take 3 months to level out, might take 1 depending on how much and how far I am driving in that time and how far up I turn the WI. 

As for the ash itself, I can only assume this is blown out as particles in the exhaust. I imagine a small portion goes past the rings and into the oil as well.
The thing I think pretty much everyone has missed with running oil of any sort is the importance of NOT over fuelling an engine.  I made the mistake with my wifes Peugoet. wound it up and the thing would light up the tyres without problem but the thing was becoming harder and harder to start despite replaced GP's working properly.  I turned the fuel down and the water up to the point it would stutter if given full throttle and a short shift but it did eventually come good again and performance and starting improved even though the weather was getting cooler not hotter.

While everyone craps on about preheating the oil hotter than the sun, the real caution IMHO needs to be on the fueling. Most diesels will be set lean from the factory in my experience but those that are being over fuelled say in a lot of takeoffs in traffic are susceptible to clogging through this happening.
I don't think ash is the biggest problem, I don't know if it is actually abrasive, but as long as it is fully burnt to completion and blown out the exhaust, I would suspect the detriment is minimal

Quote
I have also expected IP and Injector problems due to the junk fuel - I am still sitting with a brand new Injector tip and 2xFuel pump elements as spare, waiting to install should the need arise, due to erosion by acidic WMO - It looks like the 100+C heating/cooling/settling routine is ridding the WMO of water and as such is limiting the effectiveness of the acids...

Yes, If I had a dollar someone went off at me that not heating my oil and starting on cold veg was going to ruin my engine, I could have bought 2 new cars by now. People go by what they think and what other people say rather than actually having the guts to try and test anything themselves. Hell, most of them don't even think through what they are doing and when you question them on it. they copied the guy that lives where it snows for 9 months of the year even though they live in a place where putting on a jumper is a rare thing.  People don't think things through. They are full of advise and knowledge based on their idea of reality but as for hands on testing of any kind, forget it.

As I said, I consider drying to be THE most important thing in fuel prep. Here's how I do my fuel:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQL5ff9ICUs

This is how I heat the oil in the processor with one of my waste Veg oil Burners:      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYOZJrIF2SE

Quote
My general thoughts on the lister motor are that it was designed to be simple, with simple maintenance, with simple fuels, to be run by the common man - with todays tech we are inducing more problems through our own cautiousness, albeit inadvertently, that the simple things are being overlooked and we expect the tech to take the place of the basic needs of the engine - Coolant, Fuel, Lubrication, Tight Bolts and dont let the first three mix amongst themselves!!

I agree. that's the whole attraction from my POV. That said. I have also come to think the China horozontal diesels to be even better in many regards. My experience with them has all been positive and I have seriously thought about getting rid of my roid and buying a bigger water cooled china type.  They come with a lot of spare parts which would require a lot of running in my experience before they were needed and the things are even easier to work on than the roids to me.  I have run mine with a variety of questionable fuels as well and they take them in their stride.


Quote
Anyways, enough rambling from my side.... time to earn a living i guess... 800L of fuel gunk just arrived, so i better get cooking!!


I found your " rambling" very interesting and look forward to reading more of it.  :0)
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: EdDee on October 16, 2015, 10:01:27 AM
Ditto, ditto and yet ditto again....

Only one comment to add - In my experience with oils, from ATF, BRAKE, GEAR, HYDRAULIC, SUMP and DINO - all are capable of carrying a substantial amount of water while doing their job - The worst I have seen so far was when I drained the final box on my Komatsu bulldozer - 50 odd L or so of 30W - lovely brown colour - cooked it down by about 40% - yep - 40% of it was water held in suspension - got it past the chip fryer sound and popped it straight back in the box with 20L to top it off.

The last batch of fuel goop yielded about 5L suspended water in 60L of oils - it looks good when you put it in, but with a bit of heat, interesting things start to happen!

The final settling yielded about 500ml of water in the cool catch area of the cooker, it was drained off the bottom and was clear... We are fueling the old girl up to do the day's run as we speak... Lets see if she lasts the day!!

It is seems quite easy to see what blends you have in your recovered oil, albeit somewhat tedious - look for temperature plateaus while heating - lighter distillates will slow the temperature climbing as they boil off (you must be stirring it well for even heat distribution) - the most spectacular boil is round the 98 to 100C area when the water starts doing its thing (Best to add energy slowly around this temp) - Yesterday I kinda got involved with paperwork and telecalls while the main heaters were on, got to the cooker about 30sec too slowly and found a very dirty fuel processing machine with a catch tray doing its job! Yep, the water started to flash off and helped some sump gunk out of the overflow vents....

Spill contained 100%, simply reprocess once recovered, life goes on!

Lol
E
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: Tom on October 16, 2015, 10:54:19 PM
Tell us about how you hear and process your oil. I'm being given about 200 gal of k1 so no nees fot more fuel here for a few years.
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: EdDee on October 17, 2015, 09:02:03 AM
I keep it simple... heat it to around 95C or so, hold it there until it stabilises, bump it up slowly to 100, once water is boiled off I push it up to 110 and hold it there for a while... stirring continuously ..... shut down the stirrer and let it cool... when it gets below 100 I start filtering it thru a 5 mic filter by gravity, leaving the last 25% to 30% in the tank.... I don't filter from the bottom, but about a 1/4 way up... once fully cooled any settled crap is drained off the bottom and the tank is filled for the next run.. I pump heat in via 2 elements, one of 4 or so kw, the other is 1.5 kw... both on for fast, big one only for slow, and small for holding and very slow heat up.. they are normal hot water elements, but the smaller is for hard water, so it has a lower heat density... total vol oil processed is about 70 L a batch or thereabouts..

Once all cooled and filtered, I adjust visco to about 25/35 and throw it in the tank.... usually use dino to adjust, RUG gives a bit of a knock ....

While heating, I am sure that the small percentage of RUG etc in the gunk is boiled off... these are quite minimal, hardly any odour too, and by the looks of it are not worth condensing for use as a dilutant later...

That's about it...

If you spot any things in my method that I have missed, let me know!

Regds
Ed

Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: EdDee on October 19, 2015, 09:28:05 AM
In the spirit of "Lets see what we can get away with" - I pushed the boundaries a little too far!!

I filled up the WMO tank with pure, unthinned, but filtered and de-watered recovered sump oil - A mix of nasties that could quite easily be used as printer ink - The thickness was around the 40 to 45W mark, possibly a bit thicker even (fed into the injector at day temps around 25C) - The engine was already warmed up and I was pulling around 5 to 6kW electrical from it - I had the unit processing the next bunch of gunk - All went well......Until..... the load from the fuel processor dropped away, the fuel processing unit was at temperature.... it ran for maybe about an hour with no load and started to wet stack and blow smoke from the temps dropping away in the combustion chamber... No prob, I thought, a drop of water will sort this out when its up to load....

I re-loaded the genhead and started a heavy water injection cycle going(about 500  to 750ml water per minute for 15 mins or so) ... It helped, definitely, but did not clear the injector tip fully... I ran the rest of the afternoon and evening with the dirty injector (didn't feel like stripping it down so late in the day) and matters did not get any worse, nor better.

This morning I quickly pulled the injector and brushed the carbon off the tip - started on WMO from cold and there was mild smoke, a very pale grey, you had to look carefully to see it. I switched to Dino for a few mins to warm up and then back to WMO... Smoke gone!

This WMO is so thick, you can almost remove the fuel line from the pump and it only just flows through the filter... A handy trick - use a long, maybe 4ft heavy rubber fuel hose from the tank (1/4" ID) - the pump can scavenge the line and syphon the fuel in pulses, the line collapses slightly and then the filter catches up..

I also am naughty with the injector return line.... but that's another story....

So... to sum it up.... thick oil=high load only..... max it out to 30W fuel at 20C average for varying loads and it will keep spinning!! (With water of course!!)

Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: glort on October 19, 2015, 12:38:52 PM

I re-loaded the genhead and started a heavy water injection cycle going(about 500  to 750ml water per minute for 15 mins or so)


Geez Louise, That IS a heavy water injection rate for that size and speed engine. I'm amazed it didn't stutter and blow water and steam out the exhaust!
I have run 3L engines doing over 2000 RPM at 500mL min and made them stutter and miss, I can't understand how you managed to get away with it on a roid. You must have been blowing steam and water at that rate!
There is no way my 4.2L diesel Truck would go near 750Ml min even at full tilt without bogging down and stuttering.

I was once trying to help a friend set up a WI system and told him to start with 300Ml a minute.  He got back to me saying as soon as he hit the water while driving along the thing stumbled and blew water and steam and became undriveable. I went over things with him repeatedly and kept asking him was he sure he was only spraying 300Ml a minute because what he was saying was not possible at that rate.  Finally I insisted he go out and check his delivery rate. Yep, it was spot on.
Spot on 3000 Ml Min!!  He said somewhere he got mixed up with the decimal point on the measuring scale he was using.  I was surprised he didn't blow the head gasket out the thing or worse. it was only a 2.7L engine to begin with.  People are always going on about the dangers of too much water but unless you dumped a bucket full in all at once, you get plenty of notice when you are over cooking things with the juice. 
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: glort on October 19, 2015, 01:19:41 PM
I keep it simple... heat it to around 95C or so, hold it there until it stabilises, bump it up slowly to 100, once water is boiled off I push it up to 110 and hold it there for a while... stirring continuously .....


I only heat to a max of 75 due to concerns with the fact the pump I use is only rated to 40.
I use the pump to circulate the oil and spray it back into itself in a 200L drum. This pushes a lot of air through the oil to help evaporate the water. I got the ide from watching my kids get the garden hose on a jet and aim it into the swimming pool to create a sap like bubbling effect.  It works REALLY well for drying oil.  On a low humidity Summers day, I can get 200L of WVO to pass a hot pan test in 30 Min Without any heating at all.  That is good but rarely are the conditions right to make it dry so fast with no heat.  Where the humidity is higher it may take longer depending on the oil as well.  On hotter summer days I just let the processor run a few hours and it's good.
An essential part of the system is having a small fan suck the moisture laden air out of the drum. I keep the holes in the top of the drum small to avoid splashing so the fan removes the moisture laden air and replaces it with dry air to carry the humidity released away.

A really interesting thing I found with this was pushing and pulling the air through.  After using the setup very successfully for a couple of years and getting to know it well, I made the classic mistake of trying to improve the design.  A couple of things I did were good, mainly ergonomic in adding valves to make loading and unloading easier but a BIG mistake was making the fan blow into the drum rather than suck out.  I don't know why but pushing the air through just killed the drying time. I had the thing running for HOURS and still the oil wouldn't dry.  This happend with too many batches to be bad oil which I could pre test anyway to see where it was and I couldn't figure out the problem. I was heating the oil hot as ever and still it wouldn't dry within 10  times the period it did before.  Finally and in disbelief I turned the fan around again and bingo! The oil was dry as could be in an hour.

I can only make a guess that blowing air in some how allows the humidity in the air to go into the oil rather than pull the wet air out. Thinking it through in my mind it makes no sense, a gas flow should be a gas flow but I recreated the test enough times to prove it beyond belief.
One thing I did find going against that is if I have the burner running to heat the oil and I have the fan blowing into the drum and I put a piece of sheet metal across the back of the fan so it catches the exhaust heat from the side of the drum and pushes that in, The oil gets a real good head start on drying.  I assume this exhaust from the burner is completely moisture free so allows the humidity in the splashing oil to be picked up much easier.

The pump on my processor also filters the oil at the same time. the output is Te'd off and one side goes straight back to the squirter nozzle and the other goes through a 10" household water filter. I try to get 1UM cartridges but I rarely find them so use 5UM instead. I believe commercial fuel is only filtered to 10 UM which is also the rating of most fuel filters so I'm still ahead of the curve and the longevity of my on board filters would confirm that.  I have valves on both sides so I can run the squirter only such as when the oil is cold and I don't want the fats blocking the filter as they will do or it I want to run the oil through the filter only. I have the return from the filter detachable so I can use that hose to empty the processor through the filter and into my fuel drums. With pre settled oil or  pre filtered through some felt or material, I can get easily over 2000L  through a single $6 filter cartridge.  After about 2500L I usually get cold feet that maybe I didn't seat the filter right so I open the housing up to check.  The housing I have seems real good at self centering and I have never missed with it yet.  The flow may have slowed a bit by this time ( but only negligibly quite often but I change the filter then anyway thinking I have well got my moneys worth. 

I have noticed that heating the oil above ambient is very important also. Again I believe that also facilitates  the moisture from the oil being liberated into the passing airstream.
I used to make Biodiesel with a friend in 1000L batches. We dried the oil by boiling and stirring then one day I got the bright idea of throwing the grindstone he used as an airstone for bubble drying the finished bio into a drum of boiling oil. The amount of steam released was immediately noticeable by it's dramatically increased volume so we used to have 3 drums on the go and the last hottest one had the bubbler thrown in to finish it off very quick.  If you have a compressor or a good size aquarium pump like my mate had and use that with an airstone to do your stirring and take the moisture out of the oil, I'm sure you will find you can get your oil to pass a HPT much faster and also have it much drier than stirring alone.

I get my oil so dry with my processing  and drying setup, I can actually get a cupful and add 3 drops of water before it shows on a hot pan test.  A guy once demonstrated to me how he could get 4 drops of water in the oil he centrifuged before it showed.   I have boiled the crap out of oil and had it smoking for an hour and i still couldn't manage that trick.   :0)
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: EdDee on October 19, 2015, 08:57:13 PM
Glort: I run heavy loads of water through the engine regularly, but keep an eye on the lube oil for emulsification. The exhaust blows plenty of steam, up to the point of water droplets being blown out...it gets quite messy when I give it a major flush out. The trick is to feed water in to the point that the rack maxes out as you do it... if revs start to fall away, back off the water slightly and hold it like that for half a min or so at a time... look out for cooling the chamber too much .... it will suddenly start passing lots of water out of the stack if you do. If this happens, shut the water downed for 5 mins or so to get the temps up and then repeat as you feel necessary...  Light doses of water on a continuous basis holds carbon down quite a bit, but every now and then a hard run on dino pee with a heavy water feed when the temps are up really seems to clean things out quite well. Water / steam cleaning the innards helps plenty, but often will not clean the tip of a badly fouled injector... it needs a good injection pattern to do its work, or so it seems to me. Point in case being this a.m. when I cleaned the injector manually before the days run. Once cleaned, I started her on wmo saw she was a bit sooty, swopped to dinopee for a few min, then back to wmo for the day.. I refilled the tank with the 43W goop and she has been running fine all day, but a little grey smoke with an oily whiff on and off... I am going back to 30w tomorrow and will advise how it turns out.

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: EdDee on October 19, 2015, 09:38:53 PM
Glort, I like your drying method, but it doesn't work for me here in Za... the Rh was around 90% today, so chip fryer method is about all I can do until I make a fuge.... good thing is, I get lots a heat into the exhaust so extra hot showers in the eve... lol... For a stirring pump, I found an old lathe coolant pump... its perfect, I could probs stir lead with it because the impeller is not in contact with the volute at all... it is a long shaft too, so the motor is far enough away from 120c to survive... I also circulate the air, but by convection... try it... just put a 3ft chimney in place of the fan for when u heat the oil, it draws quite nicely, but not too much either, so u lose less heat... fans work best when sucking air out, rather than blowing air into a vessel, hence your improved drying... try blowing air thru a radiator to see the cooling difference compared to sucking it thru....

I only filter once, on the way out of the tank... this is thru a std 1191A fuel cartridge, but I do go thru a strainer first inside the tank and over a solids trap on the way... This is all done at as close to 100C that I can, at that temp, even 50W is about as thin as water... I process about 50 to 70 L at a time, so each batch runs me at least 3 days on average... 

Air circ  helps plenty with drying... I don't do it as a rule because of the hi rh around here and the chance of spillage because of the small processor I am using... Up to now, there has been very little residual moisture that I have picked up... Hopefully I am drying it enough! I am a firm believer in not using the absolutely last juice out the can... that last 200 ml or so is where the water hides ... try for yourself some time... throw the last 100 ml or so into a clear jar every time u fill the tank from a can... any missed moisture will show up! So far, I haven't had probs with damp fuel, but water dropping out of saturated fuel, has caused major shit.... And that was the only fuel I bought for the beast... Go figure... I think Herr Otto was sending me a message ;)

L8rs...
Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: mike90045 on October 20, 2015, 07:38:34 AM
Tell us about how you hear and process your oil. I'm being given about 200 gal of k1 so no nees fot more fuel here for a few years.

K1 - is that plain kerosene ?  do you need to add 2-stroke lube oil to it ?
Title: Re: What If I did this?
Post by: EdDee on October 20, 2015, 10:01:51 AM
Not familiar with K1 - Glort, please enlighten!
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: Tom on October 20, 2015, 07:39:37 PM
Yes K1 is kerosene which is a bit lighter than diesel and has less lubricating properties. The plan is to buy 20 gal of B20 and mix that with it to keep the IP lubricated. It also comes with a nice 275 gal heating oil tank. My mom bought a new house and the oil heater is being changed to LP.
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 21, 2015, 09:45:19 AM
Earlier, I mentioned a naughty bit of engineering/plumbing for the injector return line - here it is:

I have 2 tanks on the rattler, one of about 30L and the other is the original head mounted unit. I have kept the original in place and installed a + shaped fitting with a ball valve on the L & R arms - the top goes to the injector return line, the bottom goes to the IP...

Advantages: Remove the LHS Pipe to the ball valve coming from the external tank and the tank can be removed while the clunker is spinning... Same applies to the RHS onboard tank.

To bleed the tank lines, simply loosen the IP return line and the air is let out (The + fitting is about level with the IP, so the return line is the highest point in the line on the motor, but below the tank levels.)

To fill the onboard tank is easy, simply open both valves with or without the beast chugging and the big tank (higher than the onboard) backfills through the filter....(this also has the advantage of back flushing the onboard original filter to the tank too...gunk can be bottom syphoned out of it if needed)

The remote, big tank, also has a 7mic absolute filter on it.....

I often, particularly on my refining setup, backwash the filters with already filtered fuel - initially I was replacing a filter on the refiner every 150L or so, now, 500L later, the same filter is still up to spec and doing its job....

Disadvantages: A air leak will be hard to find - keep all piping below the level of your tanks so no negative pressure in the lines is the norm...Its easier to spot a drip than to listen for a joint sucking air!

The weather has been warm here for the past few days, about 25C or so, I have put about 100L of unthinned 40-50W fuel through the green machine with no major ill effects noted barring a slightly harder start up and one bit of injector carbon from running unloaded for an hour...

Hold thumbs - Just past the 1100hr mark now and the next oil change is due!! (On that note - I have no lube oil thinning because of the heavy fuel I am running...Bonus!)

 
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 21, 2015, 04:24:17 PM
Hmmmmm... Amazing how guestimations can be wrong!! Just did a check on how much water I am pumping in to do a heavy decarbon - Measured out at 1L per 3 minutes, not what I guessed previously of over a litre per minute.... Sorry gents for the earlier misinformation!! (Bow, Scrape, Humble Eyes cast downward!)
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 21, 2015, 10:39:13 PM
And as an indicator for normal operations, measured water flow at approximately 5L per hour for average running... the water is being drawn in as coarse droplets, under suction from the manifold, at an average temp of around 18C.... the water feed nozzle is 3mm diameter-

No water has been found in the oil as yet, but on cool days there is a small amount of condensate on the CC breather outlet...

Since the engine gets shut down late evening via a cable from the house, there is no dry running prior to shutting down in the evening... no evidence of corrosion present in the manifolds has been noted as yet...

Comments please ye learned fellows.....!

Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 23, 2015, 03:44:58 PM
(http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/IMAG0484.jpg)
http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/IMAG0484.jpg
Inserted three images of fuel boiling plant..
(http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/IMAG0485.jpg)
http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/IMAG0485.jpg
I dont see them coming up at all...
(http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/IMAG0486.jpg)
http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/IMAG0486.jpg
I dont know if www.listerenginegallery.com is working, so used a link to my own www server....

Any help out there?

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: dieselgman on October 23, 2015, 04:28:19 PM
Did you use the Insert Hyperlink button?

Once you use that button to insert the coding, then paste in the image URL - between the brackets.

dieselgman
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 23, 2015, 10:37:08 PM
I used the image button, possibly messed it up.... Maybe my images are too large perhaps...

Trying the hyperlink button instead:

 http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/IMAG0486.jpg  (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/IMAG0486.jpg)

Are you able to access the images?







Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: tiger on October 24, 2015, 02:13:17 AM
I was able to get it , faster too.
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 25, 2015, 10:01:48 AM
Thanks for the test.. much appreciated!
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 25, 2015, 11:00:13 AM
OK, so a wee bit of report back on how things are going with the state of how things currently stand...

Yesterday I changed the oil in the sump... looked good, with a small amount of sludge, maybe about 20ml of condensate water in the lowest reaches.. not bad at all considering the amount of water I am putting through it... comments please.

I found the strainer on the pump inlet was FUBAR... I have replaced it with a strainer of finer mesh and much larger size... it just fits into the apron and lies about 20mm below the weir... it should give me a much better filtering of the pickup oil and due to its vastly larger surface area, a good margin of safety between oil changes... comments please.

I ran the engine for about 2 hrs pre changing the oil, it was up to normal temp before dumping the oil, I noticed that the bottom end was much cooler than the top (obviously) but the bottom end was just slightly warmer than a comfortable hand heat for me, probs around 60 C or  so, a bit low I would reckon... Comments please.

While draining the oil, I made a decent dipstick assy for the apron, as mine had none, only the weir dipstick. It was made from an old Ford dipstick, some hydraulic pipe that fitted, a hydraulic elbow and a bit of creative machining... to drop the oil in the future, all I need do is remove the dipstick tube and spin the elbow 180 deg to drop into a catch tray without drooling it over the front of the sump like it used to.... Anybody wanting a pic of the mod, let me know.

I installed a magnet on the front of the apron at last oil change, this picked up less than 1/2cc of very fine metal dust, I reckon that is reasonable for a 500 hr interval... comments?

I also retarded the timing 2 flats on the timing tappet, she has got a bit knocky lately, much improved now... any idea how many degrees that is approwimately?

Here's a kicker... after the oil change I sat around listening and looking the motor over while it did the first post service run. I noticed some bubbles coming up into the radiator overflow bottle, a problem that initially reared its head just after I put it into service, the problem was sorted after I retorqued the head first time round. I checked and pulled the head down a little more, but this time with no difference. I reckon its finally time to pull the lid off and put a new head gasket in. I am considering replacing the gasket with a copper one, this one looks like a 3 piece composite from the one piece I can see. Its about 1100 hours in, so I reckon its a fairly reasonable lifespan. One of the major motivations for going to a mono copper gasket is the absolutely cr@p after sales service of the supplier I got this engine from. I can get a copper one laser cut in way less than the 3 months it has been for the supplier to not come back to me about some queries I sent him... Alternatively, do any of ye learned lads out there know of or have a gasket to spare to a 12/1 Opex 1000rpm idi engine? (Not having had the lid off, I can't say whether its sleeved or not) .... Comments please.

I can finally say that my 220v motor friction starter mod is successful, anybody wanting pics of it, I will take some and post them here, its still unpainted and looking scrappy, the idea was to install, test, debug and finish... well, so much for painting it, I really like and use it, so much so, that I don't even want to take it off to paint it!

Still running fuel oil around the 40w mark... Warm weather so I don't even preheat it, a little smoke now and then, 12 or more hours a day runtime! (Uses about 15l a day of fuel)...

Enough of my rambling, time to get some trigger time in I reckon.... Always find it relaxing, almost as good as tinkering with big, smelly, oily, green engines!

Regds
Ed



Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: carlb23 on October 25, 2015, 02:57:29 PM
I have bought gaskets from John @ gaskets to go a few times and they have always been of high quality and worked well.   Here is a link to his US ebay site that is run by his sister.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lister-CS-Pattern-Head-Gasket-6-1-8-1-etc-/331683702686?hash=item4d39e3a79e:g:qa8AAOxyHIlTXnNR&vxp=mtr
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 25, 2015, 09:29:45 PM
Thank for the lead Carl, doesn't look like I will fit though... by the looks of it, my bore  DIA is 127mm...

 I eventually found the bore and specs on my engine, they can b found here:

http://www.omarx.in/opex/diesel-engines05.htm

Or maybe even here:

http://www.adendorff.co.za/ProductDetails/Diesel-Engines/DIESEL-ENGINE-OML-12-(LISTER-TYPE)/889

Incidentally, there is a downloadable "manual" on the Adendorff site..

Tia
Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: carlb23 on October 26, 2015, 11:31:51 AM
if you contact john at Gaskets to go he can make up just about any gasket as i recall
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 26, 2015, 03:35:00 PM
Thanks Carl,

But, can u believe it.... I found the weak link in my supply chain, its the local suppliers who brought the engine down for me... I called them, on the off chance that they carried spares for the unit, or, at the very least, could source or direct me to a source for the spares. I stressed that it was "Urgent" and the response was positive - "We will call you right back" ..... Well, a working day later, no reply, not even a "We cant get it" or a "We are waiting for the importers" type of call.... What a bunch of !@#$$@... So I did some digging!! I found the importer had a spares section, one quick call later I had the price and the availability of the of the bits I needed in a hurry.... ZAR475.00 per head gasket(That equates to about USD34.5 or so), they have 2 ready for me, just waiting for them to acknowledge proof of deposit and i can send the couriers...

I have also asked them to compile a quote for the running on site spares I think I am going to need to keep this beastie turning over... Injector/FP Element, gaskets, rings, TRB's and big end bearings amongst other things....

Plus, if I can get some, another 2 full size flywheels to stick on the turny-bits to smooth out pulsing... I am looking at down-rating the speed a bit more to burn the really heavy fuel oils I can get (With Injection pump/duration/Injector and timing mods of course.) With a bit of luck, Old grease and peanut butter will be on the menu soon...LOL...

I wonder if these local yokels realise the turnover they are going to lose out on... Here I was thinking to myself: "Keep the business local, its benefits the local environment" ....Not that I am going to spend a million, but every bit helps!!

It looks like its the good old adage at work: "It's not WHAT you know, it's WHO you know."

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: mike90045 on October 26, 2015, 10:07:44 PM
be careful the air surges in the crankcase don't launch your press in dipstick.  The flapper vent is supposed to prevent that .......
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 27, 2015, 10:01:01 AM
Hi Mike,

The crankcase pressure surges have been taken care of - I wasn't happy with the flappy disky thingy because of corrosion and lack of sealing on the "vacuum" stroke (as well as the problem of not being able to fill the oil on my beast without removing umpteen dangly bits) so I employed a bit of reverse engineering....

Reverse in a loose term...LOL... I found an old brass vacuum breaker from a household pressure geyser/water boiler and with a little careful lathery(highly technical term for machining on a lathe) I added one o-ring and turned the insides round so its now a one way vent out of the crankcase... It is 3/4" diameter so a small pedestal adapter was made to suit the existing mounting on the crank door... Voila... Instant vacuum breaker that can be unscrewed by hand and used as a fill point for crank oil too!

Amazing... I can pour 3L of oil into a 19mm hole in a stiff breeze and not spill a drop.... but... you guessed it... She still insists I lift the toilet seat....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 28, 2015, 03:09:50 PM
Heres another "What If?" scenario...

You start your beast and see bubbles coming out the radiator header tank..... There is a ring of scum around the top of the tank, the head gasket is obviously leaking into one of the water galleries... Now.... What if you continue to run the animal while waiting patiently for the new gasket to arrive?

You do of course, keep an eye on coolant and sump oil, but, the beastie is a critical part of your day to day running...... Its just not allowed to die!!

Lets hear some forecasts of possible damage that may happen....

Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: Tom on October 28, 2015, 05:06:20 PM
I ran mine that way for years. It finally lost compression due to water leaking into the cylinder and rusting the walls. The problem with mine was that the lip the liner sits on in the cylinder block was not machined square to the surface. So if you want to keep running it and want to keep the liner perhaps the coolant should be drained after each run.
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 28, 2015, 09:03:25 PM
Point noted Tom, thanks for the heads up!

Draining evey evening does not seen to be necessary as yet, there is very little if any coolant lost in the overnight shutdown so far. In total, I would guess maybe less than 100ml consumed over the last 4-5 days. This coolant is high in glycol as well, probs in the region of a 25% water mix in it... Just enough water to take it from syrup to easily flowing .... This would probs help to combat corrosion to a small degree if it enters the cylinder I would think.... Your thoughts? (Also, the unit runs about 15 hrs a day at the mo... I really don't wanna run around at midnight to fill a jug of coolant, only to have some miscreant forget to replace it the following morning and run it up dry!)

The volume of gas getting into the coolant does seem to be increasing slightly... By my reckoning one of 2 things are happening... Either the top of the liner is starting to gas cut a groove, or the gasket is starting to break down further... It is probably the gasket breaking down I reckon, well I hope so anyway... I am not going to behead it until the new gasket arrives if I can at all help it.

If I lose compression badly, or if she starts blowing major coolant out of the header tank, I might have to crack the top end off and effect a temp fix .... There are numerous ways of doing a quick and dirty to keep going in a bind... Have you tried any perhaps?

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 28, 2015, 10:26:43 PM
A point to ponder....

Energy stored in a flywheel is directly related to the mass of the flywheel... Double the mass and you double the stored energy... On my premises, I run numerous sensitive electronic bits and bobs... the smoother the ac, the longer they will last...fact. Like all lister type low speed gens, there is a mains flicker due to compression and ignition strokes, I was wondering if doubling up the flywheels has been tried before by any learned gents out there... My concern is whether the crank can handle the huge weight of double flywheels without detrimental bending moments taking their toll. A further benefit of the larger flywheel mass would be improved surge load capability and not to be forgotten, a better governing curve.... not to mention less wear and tear on the governor and IP with their associated linkages as well... and in all probability, possibly better bearing life in the big end department...(see how a racing motor with a cut and lightened flywheel hammers the big ends ...)

Some might say that to stabilise the system, increase the revs... this is true, because energy stored goes up by the square of the revs... ie double the revs and you store 4x the energy(roughly speaking you would only get 1/4 the flicker) .... but.... increase the revs and you start narrowing down on the types of fuel you can burn... more on that if you want my warped outlook on fuel types...I have some theories, probably wrong, but they have been working for me so far... So, rev increase will not work for me in this case...(just in case it blows my fuel theories.....)

This is one where the experts can surely advise...

As an aside, I am not in favour of weighting the gen rotor.... there are just too many gremlins that creep in on belt drive systems if this is done... its kind of akin to trying to drive a flywheel with a spring, fine for near constant torque like electric motors and the like, but not irregular torque of a single power stroke of 180 degrees out of every 720... harmonics show up and break things when you least expect it... very difficult to tune out, and very easy to run amuck... what works in one scenario more often than not fails completely in an identical, or almost identical other scenario...

Experience from the world-wise would be enormously appreciated!

Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 29, 2015, 04:18:52 PM
Hey Guys...

Here are some pics of my rather scrappy, untidy, badly laid out, unpainted, work in progress, prime mover....

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private)

Please excuse the untidy bits, any help to finish it will be repaid with beers and a barbecue!!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: Hugh Conway on October 29, 2015, 08:29:36 PM
@EdDee

Re your reluctance to add weight to the generator shaft.......the start-o-matic 2.5Kw gen head uses a heavily weighted drive pulley. I have never weighed mine, but read somewhere that the pulley/flywheel weighs in at around 80 pounds. Apparently Lister thought it was a good idea.
I like your idea of adding additional flywheels to the engine. The start-o-matic flywheels are quite a bit heavier than standard flywheels, again, never weighed mine, but they are far heavier than those on my listeroid. Should you find an additional set of wheels and installed them, we would all sure like to know how it worked out!
Nice work , BTW, shown on your photo link.
Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: Tom on October 29, 2015, 10:26:02 PM
If you're going to go the extra flywheel route be sure to use ones from an engine with internal balance as an extra set of counter balance weights would not be good. I've read of people getting good results with truck brake drums and rims used as a flywheel. The SOM Lister gensets used 300 lb flywheels and 75-80 lb pulleys on the alternator.

Looks like you've got a grooved flywheel so you probably can get away with adding some weight on the alternator. Some have report belt slippage when doing this using serpentine belts.
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: mike90045 on October 30, 2015, 06:51:20 AM
A point to ponder....
Energy stored in a flywheel is directly related to the mass of the flywheel... Double the mass and you double the stored energy... On my premises, I run numerous sensitive electronic bits and bobs... the smoother the ac, the longer they will last...fact. Like all lister type low speed gens, there is a mains flicker due to compression and ignition strokes, I was wondering if doubling up the flywheels has been tried before by any learned gents out there... My concern is whether the crank can handle the huge weight of double flywheels without detrimental bending moments taking their toll. A further benefit of the larger flywheel mass would be improved surge load capability and not to be forgotten, a better governing curve.... not to mention less wear and tear on the governor and IP with their associated linkages as well... and in all probability, possibly better bearing life in the big end department........

My thought is, the "weight" on the shaft is not the issue, but the stiffness of the added load, when starting, and the pump delivers a full squirt of fuel, and while the RPM is building up, the piston is hammering against 2x the inertia of the original flywheels.  Will something break ?
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 30, 2015, 12:03:36 PM
@EdDee

Re your reluctance to add weight to the generator shaft.......the start-o-matic 2.5Kw gen head uses a heavily weighted drive pulley. I have never weighed mine, but read somewhere that the pulley/flywheel weighs in at around 80 pounds. Apparently Lister thought it was a good idea.
I like your idea of adding additional flywheels to the engine. The start-o-matic flywheels are quite a bit heavier than standard flywheels, again, never weighed mine, but they are far heavier than those on my listeroid. Should you find an additional set of wheels and installed them, we would all sure like to know how it worked out!
Nice work , BTW, shown on your photo link.
Cheers,
Hugh

Agreed Hugh.... But my few meager years of experience tell me that one should add weight to the item needing inertia/generating the pulses.... any other parts where you add weight will still be driven with the original pulsed power stroke - this will exercise the elastic limits of the couplings and if not allowed for lead to failure of those parts sooner than scheduled. I am loathe to upgrade my drive system to 10 to 15kw capability and still draw only 5....

If i find some wheels, I will give them a try and report back!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 30, 2015, 12:10:04 PM
Quote
My thought is, the "weight" on the shaft is not the issue, but the stiffness of the added load, when starting, and the pump delivers a full squirt of fuel, and while the RPM is building up, the piston is hammering against 2x the inertia of the original flywheels.  Will something break ?

I think that would be unlikely, from a power stroke point of view anyway - the bearings/crank etc are capable of taking the full power without failing immediately - what does worry me would be the "droop" that may occur in the crankshaft by the huge mass of the additional flywheels further from the bearing centers(Imagine a weight lifter with a good size load on the bar...).... this would cause flexing on the power stroke and metal fatigue would set in sooner than later.... one snapped crank would be the outcome.... Lovely smooth power for..... oops!! 10 minutes!

Regds
Ed

Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: veggie on October 30, 2015, 12:11:15 PM
Some (including Lister startomatics) add a heavy flywheel to the generator head also.

Veggie
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 30, 2015, 12:20:53 PM
If you're going to go the extra flywheel route be sure to use ones from an engine with internal balance as an extra set of counter balance weights would not be good. I've read of people getting good results with truck brake drums and rims used as a flywheel. The SOM Lister gensets used 300 lb flywheels and 75-80 lb pulleys on the alternator.

Looks like you've got a grooved flywheel so you probably can get away with adding some weight on the alternator. Some have report belt slippage when doing this using serpentine belts.

Agreed about the counterweight wheels, and on that note - everybody is balancing dynamically at the rim, or close to it....  Has anybody actually measured the CG offset for a wheels/crank/rod setup.... It might be way more useful to balance these beasts at the point of the radius where the out of balance mass is concentrated... Just imagine, A 'Roid that doesn't jump around depending on the revs its running!! Smooth power (with the classic flicker of course...we wouldn't want to get rid of that, would we) from idle speed to full revs!!

The flywheels aren't grooved, I just have the 2 v's tracking on the rim.... works fine, and barring one serious thundershower that drenched everything for a few minutes, no slippage at all that I have noted.... All the way up to about 70A (at 220V) impulse loading while testing!!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 30, 2015, 12:29:13 PM
Some (including Lister startomatics) add a heavy flywheel to the generator head also.

Veggie

Agreed Veggie,

Not my first choice though... prefer to moderate the pulses at source if at all possible.... At target it creates major strain on all the links... everything in the train needs to be beefed up considerably to cater for this.... If you are unlucky and happen to choose the right weight matching the right frequency matching the right stretch on the belt, spectacular things will happen in a very short time period.... Remember the bridge.... wasnt it called Galloping Gertie?

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: dieselgman on October 30, 2015, 01:10:09 PM
Worst that will happen is likely to be belt stretching or chirping... nice elastic coupling there.

I agree that a pulse reduction at the source is better engineering, but how are you going to accomplish that feat? I would rather deal with some drive belt issues rather than stress fractures in the crankshaft.

It is my studied opinion that the British engineers were quite savvy and figured out how to do these things very well- within the technologies of their times.

dieselgman
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 30, 2015, 01:20:29 PM
Worst that will happen is likely to be belt stretching or chirping... nice elastic coupling there.

I agree that a pulse reduction at the source is better engineering, but how are you going to accomplish that feat? I would rather deal with some drive belt issues rather than stress fractures in the crankshaft.

dieselgman

Hi GMan,

Chirping and stretched belts don't do it for me... Too much maintenance required to keep things turning... Currently, over 1200hrs on the original belts, not been adjusted since installation... That's a duty cycle i can enjoy.....(No grooved flywheels either, just running the inside of the vbelts on the periphery of the flywheel....)

The big trick is to try and determine the maximum point loading for the additional flywheels, once done.....etcetcetc... head hurting already..... Lets see if someone out there is better at the calcs than I am, or better still.... Has tried similar already....!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: dieselgman on October 30, 2015, 01:28:08 PM
One of the very effective modern fixes for dealing with stretching belts is to add in a spring loaded idler pulley.

dieselgman
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 30, 2015, 01:49:51 PM
Hi Gman,

I would not recommend that for an extra heavy load with a pulsed drive....the belt whip would be enormous and become difficult to manage.... unless of course you have super heavy springs on the tensioner...

Some time back I got hold of a 5000Psi 4 stage compressor - I wanted to set it up for charging some compressed air, PCP type rifles I own.... It came with a baseplate mounting, Ali double sheave pulley and all the right bits.... just a bit dodgy looking, but mechanically and pneumatically sound.... I popped a motor onto the base(it used those old rubber circular motor mounts... concentric to the front and back bearings...), belted it up and turned it on.... What a show!! the pulsing being transmitted back to the motor by the intermittent load of the compressor under low pressure when only the first stage is really working, caused something akin to the "Lister tango" but in a rotary way on the motor .... It tore up the rubber mounts pretty much within about 5 minutes of running..... No problem, they were probably perished, away i go and make up some Nylon inserts.... Well.... they lasted about 10 minutes.... No problem, put a 5x20mm steel strap around the motor, clamp it tight, bolt it to the chassis... no more torque problems.... or so I thought.... that lasted a couple of hours and then it broke too....

Something sparked in the back of my mind.... no wonder I got it for relatively bugger all.... the chap I got it from had the same problems....

Another bit of scratching around ensued and I found a Double sheave CI pulley with taper lock.... way more over engineered than the unit required (1/2HP motor)... I installed that on the compressor side to act like a bit of a flywheel and voila.... no more tango, rattle or rock and roll..... the flat bar mount is still in place... unused and loose.... found some older and even more perished motor mounts... they are still in place and not falling apart... All is sweet.... been running of and on for about 2 years now....

Goes to show!!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: veggie on October 30, 2015, 02:38:44 PM


A heavy flywheel on the generator head was standard issue on Lister Start-O-Matics for many years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT_exyuLSpk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT_exyuLSpk)

Veggie
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on October 30, 2015, 02:59:42 PM
Hi V,

Agreed, but that doesn't make it correct..... not to me anyway... Also, the flywheels in the SOM are grooved for the belts, they look like C section belts too, but I could be wrong...

Take a look at the whip in this video, bearing in mind there is minimum load being pulled....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR088eesEZg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR088eesEZg)

I dont like that....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on November 02, 2015, 10:14:01 AM
Hi Guys,

Did some governor mods this weekend.... well, lets just say It was a pretty interesting experience!!

Problem:
The original spring I was using was giving me fair response and stability, but was a little "hitchy" in the upper power range causing quite a bit of lag under heavy load.

Started by making a stud to link the spring to on the governor arm, then moved the adjuster from the one side to the other - the adjuster is now on the "fixed" side of the governor spring. This allows for a much easier and reliable method of setting engine RPM while it is running.  While I was at it, I removed the stud that the spring was originally affixed to and made the mounting space for the spring virtually the full width of the crankcase, attaching it to the lower camshaft cover bolt - this allows for a whole range of springs to be tried(Which I of course did...)

My Findings:
A long spring which is fairly soft, but tensioned to the original tension of the spring that I was using - This caused major hunting with the linkage setup as it was. I changed the linkage lengths and got them to as good as I could with this "long and soft" spring - virtually perfect under low loading, but under high/full load the engine started to hunt.

Conclusion: A long spring is not always the best for every situation - I shortened it down in stages and found matters improved, but were not as good across the range as they were before.

Solution:
I then replaced it with the "Original" spring that I was using and found a marked and vast improvement to the governing - the problem with hunting disappeared(Long/Soft Spring) and having "tweaked" the linkages to as good as they could be with the long and soft spring, this in turn improved the setup on the original spring throughout the power range.

Conclusion: A longer/softer spring will show up linkage length problems and pronounce them to a degree that they become easier to sort out - it is easier to hear a 100RPM hunt than a 20RPM hunt(for me anyway). Be careful you don't overspeed when it starts hunting!!

Once you have got the linkages set up as best you can, then you can concentrate on the spring tension/pull ratio to get the revs to where you want them - Be prepared to change springs as it is not only the tension of the spring that matters, but the tension/stretch ratio that determines how the engine responds and gives it the required power "stability" across the range. If the spring is too soft/long - the governor weights fly out just a little to far and they seem to go "over-center" and it takes a major rev dip for them to drop back into their "linear" operating area.. If the spring is too short and hard, when you get the  ....... well.... I didn't get a chance to go into these waters..... With a Rainstorm pissing down and a sense of humour about to fail - I stopped testing when it was doing what I wanted it to!! (Always a good excuse-If you have fixed the problem, stop fixing it some more!!)

Note: The "Original" spring I was using was not the one that came with the engine - I had put a more suitable spring on to de-rate from 1000 to 750 RPM in the beginning of the "Lister Journey"

Hope this helps someone, somewhere, sometime.....

Regds
Ed

Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on November 03, 2015, 06:49:14 PM
Hi Guys,

Another day done, a few more miles travelled on the Lister journey...

Yesterday afternoon quite late, I received my replacement cylinder head gasket... Awesome! (Or so I thought...)

On closer inspection I found that while the outer sizes of the gasket seemed to match my roid, the inner bore diameter of the gasket seemed, well, a little bit on the small side from what I was expecting... Not much, mind you, just a few millimeters... (remember, at this point in time, the roid was still running with a rather sickly sludge trying to climb out of the radiator header tank, fuel oil vapours were taking a nice short cut, bugger the exhaust, straight to the cooling system! I hadn't stripped it down yet, I am using it for daily power and hot water...)

Well, to make a short story long, one quick call to the importer later and I had his personal assurance that the gasket was spot on... He even went to his racks and pulled another one out and measured it while I was on the phone... It matched mine to a tee....

Right, plan of action was made... wait for the weather to clear, finish fixing a couple of single cycle hand engines.... (You do of course know what they are, don't you?) ... Clear the decks of the usual paperwork ... Rip the lid off Lizzie... Pop her back together... Wind her up, and... of course, all will go smoothly... been here 100s of times before..... Shouldn't take more than an hour or so..... Right... supper is ready, I will finish this off in a mo! ....

Stewed chicken..... Brilliant!

..... ...... ....

Well, suffice it to say, started the job at about 13h00.... finished it about 20h00.... 7hrs is a "bit" long to loosen a few nuts and bolts....

The damn gasket was WRONG!!!!

In the 7hrs, I managed to get the head off, confirm the gasket was a cock up, scan and touch up a layout of the original gasket, email it to a company down the road, get it laser cut out of 1.2mm aluminium, install it and discover some coolant leaks, remove it and coat the galleries with a silicon based sealer, reinstall it and test, start the green biaatch up..... All running... eventually!

Tomorrow I will speak to the lads that cut this gasket for me and get a few cut in a slightly thinner sheet... this one is 1.2mm aluminium, I am going to try 0.6 as well... the liner step is a wee bit large on my roid, so I am thinking of making an ali single sided composite with a paper lower to try and get away from this rubber goo... Anybody have any thoughts about this? (0.6mm to pump up the compression ratio a bit while I am at it...)

I will also have a chat to the suppliers of the OEM parts.... Seeing that foul language and rude gestures aren't tolerated on this board, I don't think I will be able to give an account of the conversation that will take place.....

The look around the innards was quite interesting while I had the lid off... a little black carbon, not much. A little crusty white deposit, and not too much of that either... what was interesting was the ridge that has developed, it is about .1mm maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less, at the height where the top ring stops... This is after running a sh!tload of really crappy sump gunk as fuel for well over 1000hrs now.. Anybody with comments, please chip in with the "I told you so" now please...Lol... But seriously though, after 1000hrs or more of runtime, what wear has been experienced on our welfare listers on WVO, WMO or DINO? Please chime in and give me a couple of numbers so I can judge the performance of mine...

There are some photos on http://WWW.warriorpaintball.co.za/private (http://WWW.warriorpaintball.co.za/private) of the head removal and what was found... Including a nasty little ding in the head, right in the middle of where the high pressure ring of the headgasket seats... So far this evening, there has been no blow by on the gasket, coolant is holding its level and all seems peachy, but its only run about 3hrs now... Hold thumbs!

The governor mod is working brilliantly so far... only very little rev change between  no and full load, less than 3hz estimated, only thing that shows loading is the exhaust tone deepens as she starts to pull, hopefully I have got at least one thing right over the last couple of days!

Tomorrows plans.... if all holds together overnight .. a cup full of washing powder into the radiator to break down  the oil slick and clean it up, bring it to temp and then drain it out... I am not running glycol in it now... let the settled glycol out of Lizzie rid itself of the floating muck and reinstall it in the cooling system... What could possibly go wrong? .... oops... jinxed... better not push my luck too far... enough said!

Ah yes... Suggestions please... Let's give this thread a more meaningful title..... Any ideas?

Cheers... keep the wheels spinning...
Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on November 05, 2015, 12:29:06 PM
Hi Guys,

A bit of a follow up.... (Is anybody reading this BTW? Kinda feel like I am talking to the hills here....LOL)

Cleaned and flushed the cooling system with a dose of good old washing powder(Pre-Dissolved of Course)..

All is well, things are cleaning up nicely, no more short circuits for fuel oil found.... Also, there are no coolant leaks around the head whatsoever...

Now that the governor is nicely sorted out, I decided to replace the IP element. I have replaced it with an element that is 8mm dia instead of 10mm as per the original - For anybody interested in the specs see below:

Opex 12/1 Single Cylinder - Element – 10mm Dia in 034 pump

Piston Numbers–    L3B
                                323
Sleeve Number-           308

Piston - Spiral Down from Crown to RHS of Piston (Crown Up)
Piston AOL = 78.4mm

Sleeve AOL = 50.4mm
Sleeve Shank Dia = 13.97mm
Sleeve Head = 16.75dia x 16.25Long

I have measured a load of up to 18A (I am aiming at 20A Max average) and at this load the old crate is starting to smoke a bit (I must still pull and clean the injector tip and check for carbon on the tip as I didn't do it while I was doing the head gasket, time was short!!)

Performance seems smoother with the new element, I think that with the worn element, the rack had to be a little further open to get the same power, bearing in mind that the piston/sleeve was worn war past nominally usable by a bit of REALLY BAD pump diesel with water contaminant mix in its first days in operation...

My logic in this seems to say that the more the rack is open, the later the diesel injection event stops per stroke. (Not that this has anything to do with it but...)

If the pump wear is borderline, as the viscosity of the fuel changes, the advance on the timing changes erratically. This is caused by the fuel squeezing past the side of the piston possibly until enough resistance is encountered to pop the injector. The slower the engine runs, the more slip on the fuel event, the more retarded the injection event. As the engine speeds up, less time for slip, more advanced injection.

Spill timing this thing was impossible with the old element - it was so worn that on slow hand flywheel turning, there was little or no flow through the IP non-return valve with dino... To get it to perform reasonably, I had to set the timing by ear listening to the knock... Got it quite close BTW, its around 21deg when I checked it quickly after the new element was installed.....

What I have found is that with the smaller element, (36% Area Reduction between original and new), power seems to be there as required, but, above all, there is less "intermittent" diesel knock - this was noticed immediately on startup. Originally, there was a constant diesel knock, not bad, but every maybe 10th or 20th rev there was a somewhat louder knock.... This has now disappeared!! (I don't see this as being due to the smaller element, but by a un-buggered one!!) What I have noticed is that the governor does not open the rack fully, there is still about 3 to 4mm of travel unused....Hmm... I will have to attend to that I reckon....

I ran Lizzie up at about 5 to 600RPM manually controlled and she runs absolutely beautifully!! So much so, that I am looking to down rate her a bit further still... It will be on a dual governor spring/belt/pulley system that can be changed quickly and easily - If all goes well it should be a quick "UnClip/Clip/Belt Off/Belt on" scenario to change her kW rating.... If I was "The Flash" I could probably do it with the engine running!!

For the lower power rating, I am adding a smaller pulley outboard of the large pulley on the genhead, there should be enough space on the shaft to do it... I will take some pics of the dual governor setting when I do it....If it all works out, it should be KISS personified!! The current pulley on the genhead is around 300mm dia, the belt runs on the outside of the flywheel(About 595mm dia at around 750RPM). I am looking at a pulley around 200 to 220mm diameter as an addition for the genhead, lowering the engine speed to around 550RPM or so. Any guesses as to what the max power delivery at the electrical plug will be at this ratio?

Anyways, Enough rambling from me.... Time to go play with toys.... I love my work!!

Cheerz....
Ed

Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: TxBlacksmith on November 05, 2015, 03:06:27 PM
Reading every word...I try to learn something every day....don't always succeed...but I try  ???
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on November 05, 2015, 06:17:30 PM
Hey TxBs... where ya based....?
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: dax021 on November 05, 2015, 06:41:28 PM
Also reading and trying to learn something.  Finally got my SR2 back today, so tomorrow is wiring up day, then let the fun begin
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: TxBlacksmith on November 05, 2015, 07:03:18 PM
I'm in N central Texas,  near DFW metro-mess...at least for a few more months, until I hopefully finally  ::) get to retire
from the Fire Service..... :laugh:
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on November 05, 2015, 07:56:06 PM
Hey Dax, where u based?

Hope the wiring goes well, I am still not finished with mine... Its hooked up to the property, but the changeover is manual... Every time I want to run on gen, I have to start then switch over manually... the switch over is becoming a pain in the ass... I have a couple of 100A breakers that I might just wire up to pull in automatically, saves all the hassle of running around... I guess its a bit lazy, but whatever...

My wiring is dead simple, one main circuit breaker in the gen head, one sub breaker on the wall box, one analogue ammeter and one analogue voltmeter... Simple works for me... I am tired of bit bashing and writing machine code... not worth it for a single installation... Besides, the tough time I put this thing thru would have wrecked any sensitive PC/PLC controls by now.... come to think of it, has anybody actually seen a PLC outlast a lister?

Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on November 05, 2015, 08:05:30 PM
Hey TxBs,

A good mate of mine was in the fire service this side of the world, also retired now, actually got boarded for medical reasons, lungs packing up.... Hope your innards are still OK and u can get a few more miles out of the chassis!

Ed
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: Tom on November 05, 2015, 08:36:14 PM
Hey Dax, where u based?

Hope the wiring goes well, I am still not finished with mine... Its hooked up to the property, but the changeover is manual... Every time I want to run on gen, I have to start then switch over manually... the switch over is becoming a pain in the ass... I have a couple of 100A breakers that I might just wire up to pull in automatically, saves all the hassle of running around... I guess its a bit lazy, but whatever...

My wiring is dead simple, one main circuit breaker in the gen head, one sub breaker on the wall box, one analogue ammeter and one analogue voltmeter... Simple works for me... I am tired of bit bashing and writing machine code... not worth it for a single installation... Besides, the tough time I put this thing thru would have wrecked any sensitive PC/PLC controls by now.... come to think of it, has anybody actually seen a PLC outlast a lister?

Ed

Used to work on a Westinghouse PLC from 1984, resurrected it from almost dead by finding some unlocked programming software. It was optically coupled to everything and that is the only reason it never fried, but the optical interface boards fryed frequently.
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: TxBlacksmith on November 05, 2015, 11:42:27 PM
Thanks Ed, still a few miles left in me I hope, chassis is a bit worse for the wear. 
I got a building dropped on me when I was 22yrs...long time ago, and the problems didn't show up for years...
but I am squeaking by...looking forward to moving to the country, tinkering with the Dursley,  etc.
I am hoping to find a good sized engine to rebuild, to power a full line shaft set up for my Blacksmith shop.
That and drinking some fine single malt by the campfire... :angel:
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on November 06, 2015, 11:03:14 AM
Hey Tom,

Dont know that PLC .... I used Siemens and later LG... The LG was quite cheap and powerful too... nice expandability as well... Still got one lying around here somewhere... must fire it up some time and see if it still works... otherwise it goes into the "Target" drum for when I play with the single stroke hand engines... Good fun was writing machine code, assembler, for the 8051 micro's... built quite a few data collection units for one task or another... I probs wont even know where to start if I hit the keyboard again... Lol... Use it or Lose it is a very apt description!!

Regds
Ed

 
Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: EdDee on November 06, 2015, 11:13:43 AM
Hey TxBs,

Bummer about the building drop.... At least you've made it this far and still not retired, what are you 45+?...

Awesome stuff for the Blacksmith shop... I have a building here, well parts of one anyway, that I have been reserving for my housemate to set up as a BSShop... quite a co-incidence!! I would like to hear what you have in mind to produce in the shop, equestrian tidbits or other? (Personally I would love to watch, firsthand, someone forge and make a Samurai sword or a damascan barrel for a shotgun....)

What size engine are you looking for in particular? I have put the feelers out for some listers this morning, possibly may come in with some good leads - the old farms around here all know a single cylinder stationery engine as a Lister - A mate picked up a Blackstone some while back thru one of these leads. Around here, there are supposedly quite a few in barns that are falling to disrepair, the original owners put them in before power was available nationally and when power came available, they were shutdown and never used again....

As to the Single Malt and the campfire, you are welcome to it, you deserve the finer things and pleasantries in life!! (I am a peasant and drink Rum&Coke while partying till late!!)

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: TxBlacksmith on November 06, 2015, 01:47:35 PM
Ed..    I became a professional firefighter at 19,  I am 56 now...my how time flies  :laugh:
As to the blacksmith shop, I guess I would ultimately love a true Lister twin for the lineshaft power,
but i know how rare those are here in the states.  I have a line on a 6HP 1916 Witte engine that was used for
pumping water at a railroad tower out in the country, it is in decent shape, but missing the carb.
I am restoring a 1917 Little Giant power hammer, and know where to find a drill press and grinder that are lineshaft driven.
I plan on producing a small line of higher end kitchen knives and woodworking chisels, forged in the japanese
tradition.  I am not wanting to have to work all the time, or make a lot of money, just enough to support my hobby
and maybe a little extra on the side.  I am also a historical reenactor, I cover the time period from 1740 to 1850, depending on the event.
I will be continuing to forge colonial period ironwork for the camp, as well as the nicer things for the home.
I am a peasant as well, my wife gives me 1 bottle of really nice single malt each year for Christmas, and i maybe buy 1 more myself...
So I sip it neat, very slowly like the true wondrous nectar it is! ;D  Most of the time I am a sour mash whiskey drinker, neat or on the rocks.  That
I can afford to drink as needed  :D
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: Tom on November 06, 2015, 05:32:36 PM
The Westinghouse plc is an industrial system with ladder logic programming. When I arrived there was an old Compac lunch box portable that was used for programming it, but the one and only copy protected 5.25" floppy disk was bad. I found an unprotected copy for sale on the net and we were back in business. Most of my PLC stuff has been on Rockwell systems which are very expensive stuff that will last for years.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 06, 2015, 05:38:24 PM
Hi TxBs,

We r about the same age, give or take a year... Snap!

Send a pic of the hammer if u can, sounds cool! I have an old blacksmiths post drill lying in my basement workshop strangely enough... I think it is capable of being line shaft driven as well as hand, but doesn't have an onboard clutch... I think it used a slack leather round belt and a jockey pulley...

If u can get the steel formulation and temps right to match the Jap  traditional steels, they will last generations to come! Nice stuff! A hobby that can pay its way and buy the odd beer is always good to go... Just don't lose the hobby aspect, as soon as it becomes work, it sours it...

Historical re enactor... way cool!! I collect guns and stuff, have a few muzzle loaders from round that time and more than a few replica cap and ball six shooters, absolutely love them! Militaria is fascinating to me, as a new bachelor, I have put a lot of my toys up on the walls, a total man-cave... Lol... No woman could put up with my sh!t full time I reckon....  1740 to 1850.... Hmm.... lots a cutlery, old flintlocks, muzzle loading shotguns... the first of the colt revolvers...  muzzle loading cannons ... damn I could enjoy that.... what other ironwork are u gonna forge?


Here's to all us commoners out there! Rock on! ...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 06, 2015, 05:47:03 PM
Hey Tom,

Agreed re the Rockwell stuff, same goes for Siemens... Ladder programming is not so bad, its just when you get into the heavier stuff for temp control and heating that the functions get a bit hairy.. What were those functions called again? To prevent overshoot...

Strange enough, on almost all PLCs I have salvaged or tried to in the past, the one cheapest component in the system was always the one that caused the most damage... the damn backup battery... board mounted... starts leaking due to age, good bye PLC....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 06, 2015, 06:10:26 PM
Hi Guys,

Seeing as its a listeroid forum, I better at least post something Listeroid for today...Lol...

This arvie I shut the beast down and stuck a 225mm single sheave pulley on the gen head outboard of the 300mm double pulley and ran it up... I was able to generate a max load of about 1.8 to 2 kW constant, but very pulsey power. The lister pulse was defs present, but it did sound oh so awesome! There was the start of black smoke at this load, not very bad, but enough to concern me. I stopped the test.

I then whipped off the pulley and stuck on a 250mm pulley and ran it up again. I was able to pull around 2.2 to 2.4kW constant, with less pulsing, less smoke, and also a most enjoyable rythm,.... way more practical for my needs!

All was going brilliantly.... the fridges were running fine, the water pumps were working beautifully, all electro mechanical devices were doing just as they should..... but... my UPS`s on my electronic household circuits were screaming blue murder and waving white flags... The APC units were picking up the pulsing and reverting to battery because of the instability... Has anybody else had this happen?

I have set them to low mains sensitivity to no avail... As soon as they see low rev lister power coming, they go battery... if anybody has a firmware hack for them, please drop me a message! They are the APC 2200 and 3300 units, there must be something that can be done to get them more frequency tolerant..

Changing from hi to lo rev mode is dead simple...  I shut down, slip a belt off onto the small pulley, take up the slack on a jockey pulley that is fixed in place, unwind the governor and start her up... dead easy!

Note to self.... don't forget to unwind the governor..... I dunno if the gen head can handle a 30% over speed.... not keen to find out!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 06, 2015, 10:21:22 PM
As a side note, I had a look at "event timing" as opposed to "clearance timing" on the valves today, the inlet opening event is fine(about 7BTDC), but the exhaust closing event looks to be out...(factory spec is 15 to 55 after TDC if I remember correctly, this is obviously a misprint... )..  Setting the exhaust tappet clearance to event seems to be a no go at the moment... I have reverted back to clearance setting on the exhaust... again, even this is a guess because all the info I have only goes up to the 10/1, nothing there for the 12/1...it is spec at 8 thou cold on in and exhaust... 38ac, if u r out there, gimme some comments if u can.... I read your insights on the WOK BTW, very informative and well set out... nice one!

Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: dax021 on November 09, 2015, 08:21:42 PM
Has this thread died - what's happening Ed?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 09, 2015, 08:38:40 PM
Hey Dax,

Nope not quite dead yet.... Been a bit hectic, will play catchup as soon as I get a chance....

Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 09, 2015, 10:20:57 PM
Hey guys,

Here are the latest happenings from darkest Africa.... Well its night time now, the roid is put to bed, I guess that makes it "darkest"....

Yesterday I eventually managed to get the CS plug out... Foolishly, when I commissioned this engine, I only gave the CS plug a light twist with a spanner to ensure it was tight... well, it was... tight up against some prime Indian debris... Amazingly, the green gunk they painted this creature with, managed to put up a bit of a seal, so not much leak was noticed during the early running from the CS plug... when the green stuff became a bit dodgy from the heat, a substantial amount of carbon had worked its way into the threads, successfully locking the plug in place..

Removal was a prize pain in the ass.... nothing that a spanner with 3ft of pipe couldn't sort out though... The reason for the removal, was to see the deposits in the IDI chamber... There wasn't much to be seen, way less than 1cc of total deposit was removed... most of it from the concave surface of the plug... there was relatively little to be seen in the chamber itself... it is almost as if the plug was a cooler point causing the deposits to adhere more easily to it perhaps...? I don't know... If you want to see pics of the plug and chamber inner, let me know and I will post a link to them...

I suspect, no, I am certain, that when I replaced the head gasket with my home brew version, I have gone down in compression... Hindsight is 20/20... Starting is more of a chore now than before... it takes a fair bit of turning over on the starter motor to get her firing... once running, a shutdown and restart by hand is easy... I am currently still running pretty much pure WMO(if there is such a thing) and only now and then switching to dino for short periods...(WMO is a far nicer running fuel for me, less knock and more power...) I have got thinner gaskets cut, I just need a bit of time to fit one... I am currently running on a gasket that is 1.2mm thick, aluminium. I want to try a .7mm gasket to see the difference it makes... Micrometer readings of the lip seal area of the original gasket indicate that it was squashed to about 1.05mm thick at cylinder wall... the 1.2mm I have in place now has definitely dropped the CR a bit, if my basic calcs are right, it would have dropped it by around 1 point if the motor was around the 17 to 1 when original... I did the calcs, just don't have them close by at the mo...

With this drop in CR, there is a definite dip in the power output and an increase in smoke while running under load.... A change to a thinner gasket will confirm it I reckon.... It seems as if WMO in particular, needs a bit higher CR than dino for reasonable running... pardon me if I have stated the obvious....Lol...

As to the economy impact of the lower CR... well ... difficult to say at this stage, but the influence seems minimal...

Another day in listerland draws to a close.... let's see what tomorrow brings!

Regds
Ed

PS... these damn UPS's are still pissing me around..... they are way too proud to run on a lister at 550 to 600 rpm.... This problem looks complex... pass me the bigger hammer please......
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: Tom on November 09, 2015, 11:04:09 PM
To change CR you can add or remove gaskets between the cylinder base and crankcase. Don't know what the bump clearance for that beast is, but I'd suggest keeping it within the bottom range of the spec. To measure bump clearance place a couple of bits soft lead shot or solder on the piston above the wrist pin, torque head and rotate past TDC. Remove head and measure clearance. On my 6/1 it's set for .045"
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 10, 2015, 10:04:06 AM
Hi Tom

Noted! ..... But.....

There is not too much in the way of gaskets at the bottom end of my beast that I see there, around 1/2mm or so tops - I am trying to avoid lifting the cylinder and breaking any gasketing on the lower end at the moment - keeping the bottom setup as close to original for testing as I can. A further reason for playing top and not bottom cylinder games is that if I remove from the bottom, my top ring will fall above the bore ridge that is formed from running which is quite substantial at this stage - as soon as this happens, the top ring is probably gonna get hammered, so the right thing to do would be to remove the cylinder, scrape and hone the ridge, then re-install... I have thinner head gaskets so that would be the easier path for me until i tear it down to do rings and liner.... Your thoughts?

Squish measurement is not difficult to do - when I took a quick look at the piston crown/liner top step dims at TDC - there was plenty of clearance - way more than a mm by rough guess - it is spec'd around 80 to 100thou as standard - so I left it alone and concentrated on the busted head gasket to get it up and running asap... At that stage I only had the one gasket available to me so there was little choice to be had, knowing that I had enough plus surplus clearance available... performance could be addressed later..... When I pull the head to do the "real" gasket, I am going to cc it and get the true volume of the IDI chamber - that would allow me to work out the optimum head/squish clearances for this motor... I was thinking around a starting compression ratio of 17.5:1 and possibly working it up to a little higher, maybe in the region of 18.5:1 finishing, for the burning of the more "difficult" fuels at lower RPM (Valve/Crown clearances allowing it of course) - again, anybody please chime in if you see anything I might have missed, or if you have been there and can give me a bit of insight before I grab the spanners and the "big" hammer....(18.5 seems to be about the best max from what I have looked up so far, higher than that doesn't give the return/bottom end wear ratio rewards apparently....)

Keep it spinning!!

Anyways... Enough said for now, lets see how the day's run pans out... Sump gunk is still being used as fuel... About 4 to 500L left to process!!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: Tom on November 10, 2015, 05:36:54 PM
You've got a ridge already? It will be interesting to see how the crank holds up to the additional CR. What size is the crank journal on that beastie?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 11, 2015, 03:33:03 PM
Hi Tom,

I expected a ridge fairly soon and wasn't disappointed.... I am not cracking my fuel down to component, so additives are being burnt as part of the combustion process... Whilst the additives seem to do an excellent job with the lubricity at normal operating temps and pressures, I can only surmise that they are reversing their roles under combustion and being left as abrasive residues... An interesting possibility, difficult to substantiate with minimal hi-tech equipment to verify though.. To simply do a burn test on a small sample yields very little to no residue, bear in mind. that this beast has about 1700L of waste oil through it so far - I am sure that the small amount of contaminant/L has done a thorough job of wearing things down in the process of combustion. Another thing that cannot be forgotten is the metal particles of sub 7micron size that can and will be deposited during combustion on rings and the cylinder walls. 7 Micron because that is the finest that I have been filtering to so far. These metal particles would undoubtedly act as an abrasive and help the wear process... There is little to no evidence of pitting through corrosion that I can pick up, so I think that my method of drying the oil is satisfactory(my guess, which evidence seems to bear out, is that by making sure the oil is thoroughly de-watered, acids or alkali seems to be rendered somewhat if not entirely inert...)

I am considering putting on a temperature controller on the cooling system as a temporary measure... This will allow me to vary the engine temperature as well as keep an eye on it from a safety aspect as well. I noticed something quite interesting today when I started it up, although cold, there was little smoke and that struck me as strange. A diesel, as we know, likes to run in the hotter areas of the scale, so this is where I have been running it... It would be interesting to see if running a little cooler would make a difference to power/smoke output/deposit buildup from the fuel I am using... Just a thought.....

Fortunately this beast runs about 100ft away from my office door so monitoring it visually has become second nature...

As to the journal size, your guess is as good as mine, I presume it would be in the 2" range or thereabouts - I have ordered a big end bearing to keep as a spare, it just hasn't arrived yet.....

Keep it spinning....
Ed

PS: Here is a link to some pics of the inside of the IDI chamber and COV plug.... Some deposits are visible...

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/COV Plug and IDI Chamber/ (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/COV Plug and IDI Chamber/)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: vdubnut62 on November 11, 2015, 09:22:33 PM
I've seen worse. Have you checked the ph of the wmo before using as fuel?
Ron.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 12, 2015, 08:17:56 AM
Hi Ron,

I must confess.... I haven't! There is no corrosion to the IP or metal lines/injector innards at all(After 3 months on the gunk) - This leads me to conclude that the PH of the goop is within tolerable limits.... Of course, corrosion can be accelerated by an elevated temperature, but this, I think, would also cause evidence on the injector tip insides... Maybe I am wrong, but this seems logical to me... Your thoughts?

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 12, 2015, 02:04:50 PM
Hey all ye learned gents out there...!

Would one of ye be so kind as to check my calculations and let me know if I am going astray:

CC Readings:      2   cc Inlet         
                      2   cc Exhaust         
                         65   cc IDI Chamber         
                     69   Total Head Chamber Volume         
                  
Bore Measurement:      
              127.15   mm Bore Below Ridge   (Just for Interest)
      127.4   mm Bore at Crown above top ring   (Just for Interest)
       127   mm Bore above Crown    in squish area      
                127.15mm Approximate Bore below squish area in cylinder proper (Just for interest, used the bore as 127mm for calcs)
        2.26   N Squish (away from Injector Pump)         
       2.26   E Squish         
      2.47   W Squish(Hard Globular Carbon/Deposits) (Don't trust this measurement)
      2.26   S Squish      

            Squish seems large, but the motor is spec'd at between 80 to 100 Thou... ie 2 to 2.5mm.... so this seems in spec...   

      Assume W Squish reading is bad, Discarded            
      2.26   mm Ave Squish at 127mm Nominal Bore         
                  
      28.62812823   cc Squish Volume         
      8.867119363   cc Gasket Volume at .7mm thick at 127mm Bore         
                  
      106.3           cc Final Squish Volume Total         
      1769.623678   cc Cyl Swept Volume         
      17.64744759   Compression Ratio Actual         

And that about it!!

Tell me if I screwed up....

Much Appreciated....
Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: Thob on November 14, 2015, 02:26:47 PM
I thought squish was measured with the head gasket in place - that way it accounts for how much the gasket squeezes down when you torque the head bolts.  If that is the case, then you wouldn't add the gasket volume to the squish volume.  It also affects what the spec in the manual means...

Which way did you measure your squish?  With or without the head gasket?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: vdubnut62 on November 14, 2015, 05:45:19 PM
Hi Ron,

I must confess.... I haven't! There is no corrosion to the IP or metal lines/injector innards at all(After 3 months on the gunk) - This leads me to conclude that the PH of the goop is within tolerable limits.... Of course, corrosion can be accelerated by an elevated temperature, but this, I think, would also cause evidence on the injector tip insides... Maybe I am wrong, but this seems logical to me... Your thoughts?

Regds
Ed

I'm afraid I'm empty-headed! I was just curious if you had checked. I have no idea if PH even makes a difference from my own experience.
 Mr. Bodell on the "other" forum seems to think it does.
Ron
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 14, 2015, 09:32:58 PM
Hey guys,

Another small update on what's happening with the green monster.... Since new gasket is installed with the higher c ratio, lots less smoke when running a 30w or so fuel. I think I have discovered what was causing intermittent smoking and carboning over the last little while and thought it might be worth the mention...

When I process fuel, I feed it into a 200l holding drum, drawing off the bottom quarter or so. Up until recently, I found this to work quite well. Now however, it seems with the warmer weather we are having, there is some heavier oil settling to the bottom. When filling of late, this heavier oil(estimated at 45w plus) has  been causing a bit of a problem... knock it down with a 4 or up to even 8 to 1 dino mix and it runs way awesome....

I have also now installed an auto switch over for the mains. It consists of one contactor powered directly by the generator, disengaging a second contactor powered by the mains. It works quite well, so much so that when the gen head stopped working today(more on that later), the switch back to utility power wasn't even noticed... not even by a ps3 that was online downloading some rather large game update... There is one small problem that I have to overcome the contactor on the mains side is a  bit like me... slow, old and lazy... it, on the odd occasion, takes a spilt second too long to drop out and causes the gen head to go head to head with the mains... No biggie, but I don't like it as it trips the trip switch on the panel... I will have to get a better contactor or try and sort out some form of delay without using a "bought" one... No matter... I will find a way.... suggestions welcomed!

The gen head finally tossed its cookies, there is one wire on the ac brushes that had chafed through to earth and welded itself there... No matter, I just swopped the L and N lines over as a temp measure to keep going(N and E are linked in the panels anyway), well .... eventually it went open circuit today...  The faulty wire was snipped off and a bypass wire installed externally.... Working better than ever, looks like this new "temp" fix might just end up to be a permanent one...

They say that bad luck comes in threes, well, I had my set today... first the contactor laziness, then the busted brush wire, and finally a broken wire on the cooling fan... Luckily I installed a temprorary temperature controller on the head outlet yesterday... my mission is to control and vary coolant temperatures by adjusting when the fan comes on to minimise or try to, control head temps a bit to get the cleanest burn on varying fuels.... well, it looks like the temp controller might just become semi permanent once the temp experiments are done, it will be wired to an over temp siren to let me know when and if things go awry....


One good thing did come of it though... I established that there is more than enough cooling sans fan to keep the heat down if the engine is running unloaded as it did for quite a while today.... No Gen, means no cooling fan and no instrumentation working either.... The radiator is thermo syphon, so that won't fail....

Anyways, again I ramble on,,,,

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 14, 2015, 09:44:30 PM
Hey Thob,

I measured all clearances with the head stripped... My gasket was factored in at its measured thickness... the gasket is made of aluminium sheet cut by laser... effectively the compression on gasket such as this is virtually zero... it is soft enough to seal if your head is nice and flat and if there is sufficient step on the cylinder rim... with a smooth rim of course.. The pain in the butt is building up the lower surface of the gasket with silicon ridges to seal the waterways because of the cylinder step.... the top surface gets a much finer layer of silicon for the same reason... I have had reasonably good luck with similar gaskets before... let's hope this will be one of the cases too!

Regds
Ed

PS... Well spotted Thob! I overlooked that with my messing about! You are perfectly correct! The final squish clearance for the head is supposed to be measured with the gasket in place, head torqued down. My volumetric measurements do conclude that the compression ratio is in spec though... I don't think that the bit of extra clearance will make a major difference in the grand scheme of things on this engine... A too small squish would or could cause valve interference(which I checked with the CR on) ... my thinking is that as long as the squish is same or larger than factory spec, with a sufficient compression ratio, all should be good to roll.... Your thoughts? (The squish was measured with a depth mic at Tdc... I did not torque the block down, there was probably a small amount of block and base gasket sprinback around, but the bottom gasket is well compressed and undisturbed... Unlikely that there will be too much error there). Also, the original gasket mic'd out at 1.05 mm on the rim seal, the new one is only .35mm smaller... this equates to around 4 cc squish volume error...not a major difference in compression ratio....again, your input would be highly appreciated... u got a sharp eye!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 14, 2015, 09:51:46 PM
Hey Vdub,

It probs does make a difference, maybe the ash we are picking up with WMO is an aluminium oxide formed by the combustion of aluminium held in solution by the acidic oil... Anybody have access to a mass spectrometer perhaps.... Lol... I wish I did... would certainly take alot of guessing out of the equation.... come to think of it... Ali oxide is white... and highly abrasive.... makes you think....!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 15, 2015, 12:06:30 PM
Hey guys...

Right, the auto changeover switch is in and sorted.... Instead of a delayed start or similar being put on the coil of one contactor, I have interlocked two contractors and installed a control relay to prevent the chance of both contractors being in circuit simultaneously.... works like a charm....

If anybody wants a circuit to show how it hangs together, just shout.....

Next step is to install variable coolant temperature handling to see how it affects carbon buildup... Should be quite interesting....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 17, 2015, 08:20:02 PM
Hey guys,

Anybody still out there in ListerLand?

Another update... played around with the cooling system a bit and found some interesting and frustrating things out while I was at it...

If I run with no thermostat on the engine water outlet, temp hovers around the 75C mark and remains reasonably stable.. The top radiator thermo switch kicks in and out, but things remain relatively even... If I run solely on the bottom radiator thermo switch to control the fan, the temperature elevates to around the 90C mark under normal load, going up to approx 95C in a slow cycle... but remains relatively stable... As soon as a heavy load is imposed, the system gets close to overheating... around the 99C mark and the coolant starts to boil off... not an ideal situation... I am trying to stabilise my running temp under normal and heavy loads to around the 95C max mark(hoping to do this mechanically rather than by electronic means, from a reliability fail safe point of view).

I installed a 88C thermostat at or very near to the head flange. In it I have drilled a couple of 3mm bypass holes to try and stop temperature cycling... It hasn't helped one bit.... the temp cycles from 65 to 85C ad nauseum..... particularly when the load drops away... BUT... before I go and drill my new thermostat like a piece of Swiss cheese ... I have an idea, and if anybody has tried this, I would really appreciate some feedback....

My idea is as follows... install a reduced T piece in the top and bottom lines of the coolant system alongside and parallel with the cylinder block and before the thermostat. This will make for a small external cycling channel that will have its own thermal loop to warm up the cylinder and thermostat hot side without trapping heat in the head exclusively.... The answers I don't know are: Will it stop the temperature cycling, or at least even it out a bit?, Will it interfere with the thermo syphon system as a whole? Will it create world peace, love and harmony?  Who knows.... if you have tried it and have the answer, chime in please and let me know what you found!

Keep it spinning.....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: Tom on November 18, 2015, 12:16:41 AM
BTDT, the coolant on my generator is used in a hydronic loop in the floors of our home. I found that in addition to the thermostat a valve is needed in the lower hose. Slowly keep turning it down while underload until the cycling stops. I did this once and now she's rock steady under all conditions. There is a 1/8" hole in the thermostat.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 18, 2015, 10:24:24 AM
Hey Tom,

Thanks for the info - Much appreciated!!

If I might ask, What is your average return line temperature variance into the engine? Over here, it will vary between probably slightly less than 30 and probably just over 70C I reckon... With that sort of large temp range in the offing, I am anticipating problems with accurate head temp control on my side...

Regds
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: 32 coupe on November 18, 2015, 11:23:09 PM
Tank or radiator ?

I'd try a new stat with one 1/8" hole placed to the top position.

195 seems to be about correct.

They can take a while to warm up even under load.

I'll amble off for now,

Gary

Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: Tom on November 18, 2015, 11:39:47 PM
Hey Tom,

Thanks for the info - Much appreciated!!

If I might ask, What is your average return line temperature variance into the engine? Over here, it will vary between probably slightly less than 30 and probably just over 70C I reckon... With that sort of large temp range in the offing, I am anticipating problems with accurate head temp control on my side...

Regds
Ed

My return temps are all over the map too. When warmed up the return is around 90f. When running on just the cold tank it can start at 40f and a hot tank it can be over 100f.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: mike90045 on November 19, 2015, 06:27:58 AM
Hey Tom,
Thanks for the info - Much appreciated!!
If I might ask, What is your average return line temperature variance into the engine? Over here, it will vary between probably slightly less than 30 and probably just over 70C I reckon... With that sort of large temp range in the offing, I am anticipating problems with accurate head temp control on my side...
Regds  Ed 

Tom set my coolant loop up too.  I have about a 25 gal salvaged gas tank as a coolant tank, and from cold start (40F) takes about 90 minutes to get the return line warmed up over 120F  Then the lower end (crankcase) finally gets the frost thawed off it, but in cold weather, I've never see it get over 100F  (using harbor freight IR Thermometer)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 19, 2015, 03:01:49 PM
Hey Mike,

Thanx for the info!

I take it you will be somewhere around 195F on the head outlet and around 100F on the block inlet - Delta 95F or so....

I have been running the last couple of days on a semi-boil system with radiator cooling - My block inlet is around the 80C and the outlet is around 101C - that equates to about Delta 20C - in F that comes down to 176F in with 213F out - I would like it a wee bit lower on the output, but there is no steam venting into the header bottle on the radiator, just an alarming increase in visible level as a slug of steam forms, then circulates out of the head and condenses... The level returns to original in short order.... The fan is way capable of holding the temp in the system down, it runs for about 15sec every 2 mins or so and then shuts down(That's around a 12.5% duty cycle).... I am using a temp switch in the lower apron of the radiator to monitor and turn on the fan, which is line with about in the lower half of the radiator core... Current day temp is in the high 20'sC, hence the reason for wanting to get a little more leeway to allow for the really hot days(for here anyway) when it can get up to an ambient of 35-38C - When one of those days arrives, I will have to go back to the top radiator temp switch because the entire system will be pushed well above boiling point I reckon....

What I have found with this higher running temp, is a far clearer exhaust gas ... this to me anyway, means less sooty carbon and exhaust buildup.... Also probably a better conversion efficiency, but this i think would be relatively minimal and difficult to gauge over a short period..... The more learned gents-please feel free to correct me if I am going astray....

While on efficiency et al.... Has anybody grabbed a bit of heat from the CS Plug to warm up the last inch or so of fuel line before the injector by using, lets say, a piece of flat brass or copper bar bolted to the CS plug and wicking the lost heat via contact into the injector line... It looks pretty simple to accomplish, just don't know how much benefit it would be.... (Sound of drawer being opened, shouts of glee, and a 50x10x300mm brass bar being brandished aloft.... Eyes drop back to screen and reply anxiously awaited....Lol)

Enough of my BS.... Time to go play!!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: Tom on November 19, 2015, 07:20:53 PM
I've seen COV plugs used as oil preheaters. It was reported to work well.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 19, 2015, 09:10:34 PM
Hey Gary and Tom,

Sorry, in my haste to go play I missed your replies...

Gary, I think I have sufficient in the line of bleed holes, the problem is my cooling system is a bit too efficient if I run it on the top temp switch... on the bottom switch, it is just not quite enough cooling to allow any leeway...  Warmup is quite quick, I estimate 15 min or thereabouts to get the fan cycling on and off on the top switch...that is without the stat installed and the motor running around the 80C on the outlet...

Possibly I must reduce cooling efficiency a bit, there are a few ways I could do it, one is by partially isolating the temp switch with a buffer material to dissipate a bit of heat before the switch... that shouldn't be too difficult to do, even make it marginally adjustable to fine tune it a bit... add a few cooling fins and that might do the trick with an adjustable shroud over them to fine tune... the advantage of doing it that way, is that the fins would dissipate more heat in colder weather, less in warmer, causing the switch to either come in sooner or later temperature wise.... almost self regulating depending on the ambient temperature... interesting thought... defs worth a try I reckon, and very easy to do....

If I can lose the thermostat, put a piece of ali bar in its place to do similar work, less moving bits and things to fail...

Tom: I am not too wild about a large temp differential over the length of the cylinder... I know it is accepted, but I am interested in keeping the top half of the motor as warm as I can, but below 100C... less condensation, less oil fouling, less heat loss during combustion... Just a thought...

If I can come right with my "solid state" temperature tuner on the top temperature switch on the radiator, it might just be something that others can find handy... and keep the top half of the Beastie warm and snug as well...

Again I ramble on... please tell me to shut up!

Kelp it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 19, 2015, 09:25:50 PM
Hey Tom,

Thanks for the reply re the CS plug heat scavenging ... I am really keen to give it a go and see if it clarifies the burning a wee bit more... As hard as I have been on this beast in the last few months, I am constantly amazed, on a daily basis, that she starts up and runs! Yes, she is getting a bit tardy on the morning wind up, yes, she uses a bit of oil on a daily basis, but when I equate the workload that has been put through her so far, I can give her a bit of leeway I reckon.... (and that with the crappiest fuel I could possibly find!)

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: buickanddeere on November 20, 2015, 01:16:19 AM
Eddy. Is there any way to incorporate a small electric pump . To act as the recirculating like or port in most forced circulation cooling engines ?
 Is there a way to reduce the cooling area or efficiency of the rad/fan? To raise the temperature of the coolant leaving the radiator ?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: 38ac on November 20, 2015, 02:11:39 AM
An old fellow who helped me get going told me that thermostats and thermosyphon don't play together well, most of what I read lends credence to what he told me. Not saying it cant be made to work, it just doesn't come easy.
 I have resisted using thermostats on the few complete set ups that I have installed and instead have placed a gate valve in the lower water port line as the old timer instructed.  It is simple, goof proof once set and lets the system pretty self regulate. yes we run a bit cool under partial loads and a bit hot under heavy ones. The slick operators pay attention to the weather and cover or uncover a portion of the radiator to help compensate.  I don't have anyone trying to run 100s of hours a week so the trade off for a very small loss of fuel efficiency is made up for in KISS.  ;)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 20, 2015, 07:08:36 AM
Hi B&D,

There is always a way to get a pump in, in fact I have one that can be used.... I just don't want to!! (KISS principle to the max!)...

Reducing the efficiency of the radiator is also an option, but again, back to the old adage, SIZE DOES COUNT....Lol .... Due to the large temperature range this beast needs to operate in, preferably unattended, I am looking to find a way that if at all possible, even seasonal variances are catered for automatically with as few moving bits as possible... Should I be able to come up with a relatively "ID ten Tee" proof way, it might just be able to benefit all users, in all climates....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 20, 2015, 07:28:21 AM
Hey 38AC,

Agreed re the Thermo-Syphon/Stat debacle... They do not like to be neighbors in any system.... Agreed, they can work, and do work very well together when u eventually get the kinks out... but, they are not the best under all conditions.... Particularly if the stat gets cooked up beyond its range, it tends to fail closed which can cause big problems in a system that is run by unskilled hands with minimal eyes on... Weather shutters can be implemented on the radiator - think of the old beetle engines for the colder climates... They had Auto-Air restrictors on some models that were temperature controlled... They worked well, but also were one of the first things to fail in the hotter climates... Now, if I can get away from moving parts almost completely, and control fan startup and monitor environment temp at the same time just by using a piece of Ali Bar as a spacer between the radiator and switch.....(I am stuck with a switch and electric fan...My design doesn't let me get away without them..)

The gate valve might still be used initially in my system to control flow, but again, I am not too wild about something that can be messed with causing problems later, like "Oh. is that what it was for.... I thought it was to shut off the water to the building..." ....  .... .... one melted roid and bad mood later....Lol....

Keep it Spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: carlb23 on November 20, 2015, 10:47:10 AM
I had the radiator fan fail once on my roid and it overheated and just stopped.  When i went to turn it over it wouldn't budge.  I took off the inspection cover to see if i could see anything (i didn't know the fan had failed at this point and thought maybe the big end bearing went) by the time i got the cover off the engine was free again.

I then discovered the failed fan and knew that it had overheated.  After the engine cooled for a while I started it back up for a few seconds and it ran fine.  Not wanting to take any chances i tore the engine down completely.  Upon inspection I could not find any evidence of damage from the overheating episode.  I put the engine back together with a new set of main bearings just because i had several spare sets and the old ones had a few pit marks in them and the engine is running fine.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 20, 2015, 11:48:04 AM
Noted Carl....

That was a close one!! I hope to never go there again.... Been there on a few cars in my foolish years, now the b@lls are smaller and the brain is bigger... I Hope!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 20, 2015, 12:15:07 PM
Hey Guys,

I might just have found the magic bullet....

Take a look at this: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Radiator Switch Heatsink B.jpg (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Radiator Switch Heatsink B.jpg) ... Simple, easy to do reasonably adjustable and you can custom it to your own needs...

This has taken my head outlet temp from 75C to 85C nominal to 88C to 95C nominal under full load.... By diverting a small amount of air from the fan over the "fins", you can increase the head temp as needed. By splitting it in half (it's a pair of M/F units) you can lower the temp as needed too...

It is made out of 35mm Ali bar stock, 3mm fins/gaps about 5mm deep. One side of each half has a Male 1/2" BSP Thread and the other a Female. The unit screws into the radiator switch socket and the switch in turn, screws into the "extension" .... The combined overall length is about 70-75mm... I have bored it out to minimize the thermal mass and allow it to heat/cool a little quicker minimizing the lag as far as possible... Id is threaded female to suit the temp switch, virtually full length....

I removed the thermostat and housing I made, the temp immediately took a step at stabilizing, albeit at a lower than required level.... Added the heatsinks, one at a time, and the temp rose as needed. The day temp in the lean-to is around the 30C mark, I will check the evening temp and report back as to whether the unit allows for a broad range of ambients as a bonus.... My logic says that if the ambient temp is lower, the heatsink end at the switch will be lower too.... the fan should shut down earlier and minimize the temperature sag on the engine in cool weather.... Hold Thumbs!!

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: BruceM on November 20, 2015, 03:15:49 PM
I was very interested to read 38ac's comments on thermostat difficulties with thermosiphon systems.  I've certainly had some trouble with mine.

My thermostat's kept failing after 1-2 years, and too much hot-cold cycling.  Things I've found helpful were reducing radiator area dramatically, restricting coolant flow via ball valve, and increasing the bleed holes in the thermostat to two 3/16" size holes (top and bottom).  This seems to have done the trick.  Radiator area reduction and coolant flow restriction were done with extended full run on an exceptionally hot summer day.  I'm sure it still gulps a bit, thermally, in winter but it has been behaving well.

Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 20, 2015, 03:54:31 PM
Hey VDub,

Here is the circus diagram for all the electrickery you were looking for.... (Auto Changeover Switch):

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Auto Changeover Schematic A.pdf (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Auto Changeover Schematic A.pdf)

As per the usual, use at your own risk, get a qualified person to check it over, commission and install for you.....

Keep it Spinning!!

Regds
Ed

PS... How it works...
The genset is the controlling factor, there are no frills or fancies. The only luxury item that is used is an overload sensor that I had lying about.

When the gen is off, the utility contactor pulls in and runs mains power to the selected circuits you wish. As soon as the gen starts up, it pulls in the control relay and this in turn drops out the utility contactor and pulls in the gen contactor as well. The 2 contractors are interlinked to prevent both being pulled in simultaneously and thus blowing up your gen head.... The house then has the selected circuits powered by gen, while other circuits in the house such as cookers and ovens etc run off of utility power. Should too many hair dryers, dishwashers, fridges and toasters be turned on simultaneously on the gen circuit, the overload sensing on the gen contactor triggers and the control relay is switched off, reverting to full utility power and bypassing the gen. Once the overload resets(I have set mine to auto reset after 60sec), the control relay is pulled in and the selected circuits go back to gen power... The contractors I am using are 3 phase, but I have wired the contacts on each contactor in series... Should a contact bar burn closed, the other 2 will surely open, giving a redundancy effect and a bit of a parachute, Just in case!...

The changeover when one input drops away is very quick, ups's don't kick in and PC's don't reset, so things seem excellent ...

Choose contactors that are at least 25% or more above your gen outputs capacity, Bigger even, if u can find... remember that the overload trip on a contactor output is 25% on average above what you set the dial for.... it is also not immediate, so allow for that too... the control relay only needs to be rated to switch the current of the coils on the contractors, nominal 5A should do it quite well...

Hope this helps make your live a bit easier!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 20, 2015, 11:07:43 PM
Hey guys,

From a warm and dry afternoon to a cold, wet and windy evening... temp  during this afternoon was in the high 20s C and this evening it was a rainy and windy 12C by shutdown... Why the weather report? .... Well, the radiator switch heatsink seems to be doing its job over the mid lower end of the temperature scale... the cooling system has "self adjusted" itself and kept the head temp at around the 90 to 93 C mark without intervention from me at all, and this is with a air temperature swing of around 18C or so. It looks promising so far, but a bit more testing will still need to be done to confirm that it is working to my satisfaction... Don't copy it just yet, let me screw it up first and save you the trouble!

Loads varied from light to maximum design load over the time period tested so far, including overload conditions of 20A plus, at 230V... At no stage did the cooling system boil... it came very close, but just before boiling point was reached(around 97C), the fan started up and held the heat demons at bay...

As a safeguard, I am prepping some concentrated glycol to replace the coolant in the cooling system with... Although the heat transfer properties of the concentrate will be lower, causing a slightly higher head temperature, the benefits I feel, will outweigh this. The primary benefit will be a much elevated boiling point, in the region of 110C to allow for more leeway before coolant gets dumped from the overflow port on the header tank by steam/vapour expulsion..... My header tank and radiator top tank are not large enough to cater for more than a litre or so loss before the heat syphon loop gets broken... Bad things will happen if it does... But hey, if I get it ticking over OK, if the header tank was good enough for a 1600VW, I am sure my roid won't complain!

Enough rambling... Darkest Africa is again dark.... now that Optimus Prime Mover has gone to sleep....

Keep it spinning!

Regds
Ed

PS... contrary to popular belief, I don't have lions roaming the back yard... bushbuck, duiker, waterbuck, porcupines, bushpig and warthog... but no lions.... Damn, I miss them...
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 21, 2015, 10:14:53 PM
Hey Guys,

Another bit of a report back on the temperature stabilisation...

Today I took a chance and drained off all the coolant from the thump monster, cooked it up and boiled off as much water as I could, without boiling away too much glycol... It panned out at about 40 to 50% by volume of my coolant was made up of water, or at least, that was what I boiled off anyway... My total coolant volume in the monster is around 8L... this I boiled off down to just over 4L in an effort to re-concentrate it...  The deficit I made up of some reclaimed coolant I had lying around.. I then refilled the cooling system with this concentrate and spun it up...

What I have found is that now the temperature is even more stable than before, it fluctuates around 5C from 99 to 104 degrees with no sign of being near to boiling point of the coolant in the system at all... This is with no thermostat, purely thermosyphon, wildly varying loads(the daughters were home and various hair appliances, washing machines and kitchenware was in full employ today)... I must add though, the weather is far from warm, with a stiff breeze... So any hot weather testing will certainly still need to take place.

Going from a 50-50 glycol to 100% glycol has elevated running temperatures by about 8C, but in doing so, possibly because of the higher viscousity coolant, the temperature seesaw is almost nil compared to previous... The added benefit is that now the temperature is elevated a little more, giving a slightly cleaner burn too....

If the temp remains reasonably tolerable in hotter weather, I think I will have the cooling system at its optimum best for my current setup... A good time to stop fixing it would be around about now!

Next project, is the preheater for the injector... I am going to attempt to tap off some unclaimed heat from the cs plug to do all the heating I can,,, It will have to, of course, be somewhat adjustable, to tailor the preheatimg to suit the fuel source that is being consumed at the time....

Enough rambling... Time to find lions.... Lol... or was it a warthog I heard in the back yard....

Kelp it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: mike90045 on November 22, 2015, 02:13:55 AM
Doesn't the injector get pretty hot bolted into the head ?


What's the temp limit for the rubber O ring in the base of the cylinder ?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 22, 2015, 07:54:10 AM
Hi Mike,

It does, but I would like to see if warming the fuel just a little more, will improve the burn a bit more... temp of the back of the injector sits around 65 to 75C I guess.. I would like it at 100 or close as possible... that would thin out my fuel oil to around diesel spec at point of injection entry...

The o rings should be well capable if up to around 110 C without any major problems, also with a high glycol mix, I have found rubber work lasts consistently longer than with high water content... also no crusty build up or corrosion too....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Breaking the Rules with WMO and the like!!
Post by: EdDee on November 22, 2015, 10:44:30 PM
Hey guys,

Another day is done, another good quantity of waste gunk burnt off in an environmentally acceptable way.... with benefits!

Lessons learnt today:

Allow for a slow warm up with straight glycol coolant!

This morning I started the thumper and withing 3 minute of cold start I pushed the power output to max overload to see the effect... Quite spectacular actually! .... When glycol is cold, in my case around 8-10C, it is quite thick and syrupy... the thumper managed to get the glycol in the head to boiling point before it could syphon and circulate due to the cold viscosity and resistance to circulation imposed by the radiator and down flow...  about half a litre came galloping out the overflow before I could get a catch bottle in place.... must have been hilarious to watch ... no harm done, circulation picked up and took over shortly thereafter, no other over temperatures were noted during the day, the first part of which was busy processing a batch of fuel... a straight run of around 2 1/2 to 3 hours at the max design load of the system... about 5kw... The rest of the day consisted of average to high loading, intermittently overloaded.....

Directly after fuel processing, max load, I pulled the cs plug to make a minor mod for the fuel heater/injection heater that I am going to make and fit soon... Take a look at the white deposits that have formed after around 250hrs running... pictures to view here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/COV Plug Deposits 250hrs WMO (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/COV Plug Deposits 250hrs WMO)

The mod is really minor and easy to do, it consists of a tapped hole 10mm thread about 40mm deep in the cs plug. I have machined the square of the plug nice and flat to make a good heat contact surface for the brass bar to scavenge heat and transfer it to the fuel line... pictures to view here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/COV Plug Modifications (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/COV Plug Modifications)

I am not going to modify my existing line, that will be maintained as a spare, I will replace the entire line with a new one incorporating the brass heat scavenging fitting should all go well...

I also got a chance to make a small heat exchanger to fit just before the radiator, horizontally, at the top inlet.... pictures of the internals here:http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Coolant Heat Exchanger (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Coolant Heat Exchanger)

The reason for this exchanger is twofold, one to harvest a bit of waste heat before it gets lost to the radiator, and two to keep the cooling system warm from the heat store via reverse cycling overnight.... an added benefit would be to have just another couple of litres coolant to help stabilise the system temperature a bit more, but this is not part of the criteria at all... Let's hope the effort/reward ratio lands on the plus side!

Right, I am now thoroughly knackered, Monday has just arrived.... can't wait to get into the office for a bit of a rest...

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: Tom on November 22, 2015, 11:36:02 PM
Ed, if you want max btu's out of the cov plug, drill into with 2 holes to form a V in the plug. Then tap the holes for your choice of fitting.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: vdubnut62 on November 23, 2015, 02:46:18 AM
Do you think the white deposits are aluminum oxide?  Really nice craftsmanship on the heat exchanger.  I would never gone to the trouble of flattening the tubing.
Ron.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on November 23, 2015, 10:31:40 AM
Hey Tom,

Agreed re the loop through on the CS Plug... My resistance to doing that is simply that with WMO burning, there comes times, usually in the worst weather, late in the evening, that I will have to pull the injector to de-foul it... using the "heatsink" method, one fitting to loosen on the fuel system, hence less chance of leakage... A weak reason, but valid nevertheless (for me anyway...Lol...) In the dark, with rain pelting, the fewer leakable couplings to do, the better...

A further, possibly more valid reason for me anyway, is being able to adjust the temp of the fuel by the amount of lagging installed on the heat couple... I dont know what temp will be best yet, so this allows for a bit of playing.... and I do like playing!! ... Lol..

Regds
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on November 23, 2015, 10:39:17 AM
Hey Ron,

The deposits could be....who knows? A mate of mine works as a tech for a large university not too far from here.... I think I might just mail him a sample and see if he can get a mass spec done on it.... Hopefully they wont come lock me up for trying to mail an ominous white powder in a plain envelope...... :police: :police: :police:

Thanks for the comps on the exchanger... the flattening of the tubes was not initially intended, water filled and rolled they started to flatten... I checked the flow resistance through them while working on it and although it will cause a bit of back pressure on the hot water system under full stream, I will still be restricting the flow a bit more on the regulator valve anyway.... Still gotta pressure test the coil and look for pinholes... Hold thumbs... Picture the scene... Exchanger installed, drawing off heat beautifully... I wonder why the coolant keeps overflowing...... Duhh....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on November 23, 2015, 03:46:00 PM
Hey Guys,

The Hot (cylinder) Head tests continue....Feedback:

Ran up thumper from cold this morning, started out at about 8C and allowed it to run for a few minutes without major load....about 5mins in all.... the temp climbed quickly and the thermosyphon cycle started up fine... No major localized heating, no boil off, all fine.... Once partially warmed up, went to full daily load and things worked great.... It seems that the trick is to allow it to fluidize the coolant fully to allow it to circulate efficiently! Once done, all is well....

Lets see if this beast can start stably everyday if a few small rules are followed....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: buickanddeere on November 23, 2015, 07:02:38 PM
Temperatures of 212-230 even 240F doesn't cause damage as long as the coolant stays liquid and without steam/vapour bubbles or pockets . Trouble starts even if the outlet temp is 180F if there is coolant jacket locally over heated because vapour/steam is a lousy conductor of heat vs liquid water/glycol .
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on November 23, 2015, 08:57:51 PM
Thanks b&d,

Noted! Many a block has been wrecked by that I bet! My aim is to get things cycling as reliably, easy and warm as possible with no vapour pockets...  Sounds easy, but it isn't as we all know!

I might have to drop the temp on the radiator thermo switch a tad to allow for slightly more cooling on the radiator side, which in turn will give slightly better coolant turnover, better temperature gradient et al...

Quite easy to do now... just part off a few mm on the heatsink and temps drop a bit.... Or cover a few fins with some thermal insulation to allow faster temp transfer to the switch... but will give it a couple of days first to check the trend.....

Overall it is performing satisfactorily, but there is a few degrees increase in temp when the shed doors are closed... running this close to boiling gives little leeway for error... not a good thing...

Regds
Ed

PS.. one thing I did notice this morning was a lack of coolant in the overflow resevoir when cold.... nothing was spilt, I was running at a level I previously set for water/coolant mix... it appears that the glycol has a much larger expansion ratio than the mix.... alarming... and something to keep an eye on too....
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on November 24, 2015, 01:21:09 PM
Hi Guys,

The thump monster started fine this morning, coolant was a little low, but still covering the outlet so I didn't worry about topping it up... After a few mins of warm up, just enough to get the outlet pipe warm, not hot, to the top of the radiator, I switched on the daily load... All has behaved perfectly, when the motor is fully warmed up, the coolant level is at the "normal" top mark... Nothing to worry about so far....

I think I am still going to reduce the fan switch temperature by a bit.... Just to give a small safety factor in case loads go heavy or timing goes out a tad and the monster decides to turn oil into heat without using the flywheels......

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on November 25, 2015, 08:19:26 AM
Hey Guys,

Day Next of the Hot-Head Trials:

All started fine this morning, ran a lot of water through it yesterday, water flow was set to the mid-high flow rate - No condensation on the CC breather too.

With the higher head temp I am able to run much more water through the inlet on a continuous basis with no condensing steam evident out of the exhaust port indicator(The exhaust port indicator is a highly technical, specially shaped port to monitor exhaust emissions at the cylinder exhaust port outlet - it consists primarily of a cracked exhaust flange that I have not had a chance to repair yet......)

All is running well, head outlet temps are still stable in the high 90C to low 100C range, no boil off either with high glycol content cooling....

Lets see what the day brings!!

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed

Title: Re: What If I did this? (Otherwise known as "Breaking the Rules")
Post by: glort on November 26, 2015, 05:19:57 AM
Hmmmmm... Amazing how guestimations can be wrong!! Just did a check on how much water I am pumping in to do a heavy decarbon - Measured out at 1L per 3 minutes, not what I guessed previously of over a litre per minute.... Sorry gents for the earlier misinformation!! (Bow, Scrape, Humble Eyes cast downward!)

Yeah, that makes a LOT more sense!
I cold not figure out how you could be running as much water as you said and have the thing still running.  I guess i'm getting a real feel for this WI stuff as far as how much water an engine can handle.
Makes  more sense now!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on November 27, 2015, 11:31:47 AM
Hey Glort,

A little update for you.... With the higher head temperature, I was able to double the the water input for decarboning things... It amounted to a measured 2/3 of a liter for a few minutes at a time, up to around 5 minutes each.... This flashed off heavy carbon deposits in the IDI chamber and piston top (and coated everything with soot in the near vicinity...but the story about the washing line will be relegated to another forum....)

I am maintaining my previous water setting for normal running, it holds most of the deposits at bay, with a VERY slow buildup over a period of time... Easily flashed off with a heavy water feed, especially timed to coincide with washday....... Did I just say that? ::) ::)

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on November 27, 2015, 11:46:46 AM
Hey Guys,

A 2-day update for you!!

Yesterday started with no problems, thump monster behaved well and started heat syphoning perfectly... What I have found, is the most convenient way to get things going from cold... Check oil and coolant, spin her up with no load, leave her ticking over while I blend fuel and fill the day tank, cut over to the load once done and all is well..... Unless......!

Unless you are processing fuel(5kw full resistive load working the monster hard) and...... Unless you have a SE breeze going, just a light one, and it dams up the heat in the genshed(the heat outlets are on the S side of the shed) ... Interesting things begin to happen while you are not watching... the gremlins creep in and piss coolant on the inside of the shed after drinking it out of the overflow!!

Easily solved - Removed one heat-sink section from the thermal switch on the radiator, filled the tank with more glycol (Ouch...$$$)....and kept it all spinning...

Head temps are a little reduced now, not what I wanted, but I am way happier that there is a bit of a safety margin....Hopefully the pre-heating of the fuel will make up for the reduced temp....

Goes to show, as you get ahead in the rat-race..... Someone turns up with a faster rat!!

This weekend I should be able to finish off the heating doo-dah for the fuel line, I will post pics of it when done. If all goes well, I might just finish up the heat-ex for the radiator inlet line too....

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: glort on November 27, 2015, 01:46:33 PM

I would be wary of running too much water.
There are speculations of too much spray washing the oil film off the cylinder walls and causing excessive wear.  I don't know if there is anything to it or not but I wouldn't at this point dismiss it out of hand.

One only has to admit enough water to prevent buildup of carbon.  I am wondering if you are getting a little too pedantic with it. Every engine will have some carbon and that is not a problem. What you really want to avoid is gumming or fouling of the piston rings. all a bit of carbon on the piston top and in the head is going to do is bump the compression a fraction.
You don't need to have the cylinder completely shinny.

I think as you are doing now, running with a low sustained dose followed by a hard run with a good dose is the best approach. You don't want the thing running too much water and quenching the flame front and over cooling the Cylinder.  That will just result in poor performance and fuel economy and I imagine greater engine wear.

As far as heating the fuel line, If you are not getting starvation because of the fuel being too thick, It won't do Diddly.  Do some accurate before and after measurementsandtell us what you find with accurate details.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on November 27, 2015, 02:30:06 PM
Hey Glort,

Agreed re the "too much of a good thing" approach.... Too much for too long will cock things up, I am sure... I am holding excessive carbon back mainly in the ring department - As soon as I see too much gas bypass, black smoke or blue smoke, thump monster gets a wash!! To much bypass=sticky rings, blue smoke=stuck oil control ring, black smoke=crap on injector tip.... usually a goods wash sorts them out.... the injector has a 50/50 chance of blowing clean, occasionally its really stubborn and needs a pull out and brush off....

I am heating the fuel line as it goes into the injector now - my logic says to me that if the fuel is hotter, its thinner... Most of my problems have been fuel viscosity related I think, note... "Think"... Anything tried is something to cross off the list... I found that with 40-50W fuel oil, atomisation was a biaaatch and she ran very smokey as soon as loads were applied.... Thin it out a bit with dino, at a 3:1 ratio WMO:Dino and things run much better... My aim is to try and get this beast running solely on sump gunk if I can.... Lets see how it works out....

Here are some pics of the fuel preheater - its not neatened up yet, but is fully functional, just need to lag it a bit to keep as much heat inside it as I can....

Pics are at: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Fuel and Injector Heater/ (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Fuel and Injector Heater/)

Its an easy mod to do, so barring the cost of an injector line, nuts, brass bar, a little gas and silver solder, the actual job is quite tiny... If it works well, it might just make somebody's life a bit easier....

Anyways.... Enough of my rambling....

Keep it spinning!!

Regds
Ed

PS.. I am not worried about incoming oil temp to the IP, a bit of positive head pressure does wonders there... the heater is solely to try and get better atomisation of the fuel at the injector by thinning it down with heat as much as is possible... I noticed an interesting phenomenon that put me onto this path. The injector well in the head on my Beastie is normally quite clean with little oil lying in it... without thinking, a few days back, I accidentally over oiled the rockers quite extensively... so much that the well was filled with oil... I won't mention how it happened, but suffice it to say that no squirt oil can was used.... the interesting thing I noted was with the oil present, the injector was much hotter to the touch and things seemed to be burning a bit better.... can't say if it was imagination or fact... let's see what transpires with the preheater in place....

Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on November 29, 2015, 12:32:01 PM
Hey Guys,

Another 2 day update on "barbie for boys" ... otherwise known as dressing up a Listeroid!

Yesterday, after seeing how the beast was running on virtually straight WMO, I ran the day tank empty and filled it up with 30L of sump gunk... She ran fine, albeit just a tad smokier than usual, so all appears well... or at least as well as can be with the cr@p I am feeding her...

Today, after shutting down on WMO last night, she was quite hard to start, this was expected, as the gunk needs a bit of pre-warming before it atomises properly.... No major problem, the starter is 100% duty cycle rated and powered by utility power, or donkey screamer power.... I am trying to avoid a Dino shutdown and startup if I can at all help it... and so far it seems OK....

In an effort to get as much heat to the injector/fuel that I can, I have changed the bolt holding the brass preheater to the CS plug from MS to a brass stud, bottoming in the threaded hole in the CS plug which is around 40mm deep.. This immediadely made a felt difference to the preheat temp, I guess about 10C or so... pics can be seen here... http://WWW.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/IDI Chamber Brass Bolt and Lagging/ (http://WWW.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/IDI Chamber Brass Bolt and Lagging/)

This seems to have bettered combustion a bit, once warmed up obviously...  unfortunately, with the lagging installed, I cannot get any real temp reading on it, but suffice it to say, its HOT....

Later today I will throw some more waste oil in the processor and wind up the heater on it... that gives it around a 5kw demand resistive from the thump monster, I will let u all know how it behaves....

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on November 30, 2015, 08:03:14 AM
Hey Guys,

It was an interesting day yesterday indeed....(Ancient Chinese curse: May you live in interesting times.....)

Thump monster has started to ail..... I suspect that the exhaust is in need of a good decarboning, in fact I am certain of it! Monster ran reasonably well, but power was definitely down, it was only able to make 80% of the design power on the WMO while processing fuel.... I can tell by the exhaust sound that there are a few "restrictions" in the flow... Gone is the crisp sound at tail end, now a subtle thump.... Engine temps are up in the uncomfortably high areas and the output power is down. Putting this in perspective though, this is near enough 1600Hrs at last count, only major failure experienced was the head gasket which gave trouble from day one... No real decarboning has been done on the engine internals or head/exhaust, barring a minor bit of crown scraping to measure squish when the head gasket was replaced. Only other decarboning that I can remember doing on a semi regular basis has been the injector tip....

Of interest is the fact that at low head temperature, exhaust carbon buildup seemed to be able to be "flushed" with a heavy water injection run. With the higher head temps, the carbon buildup seems to be of harder and more dense nature - WI does not loosen it so easily. It may be co-incidental that the power drop off/performance loss occurred simultaneously with the use of WMO straight run, but I think not. I am under the impression that the exhaust was partially clogged pre starting the heavy WMO run, and the additional carbon/ash expelled in a higher concentration did a buildup trick way faster than expected.

Coinciding with this buildup is the fact that the "trials" are about to draw to an end. This engine has been used as a test bed, to see what I can throw at it, the mods required to keep it running, the reliability of the unit, the repair and attention required to keep it ticking over too....

Lets see what the day brings....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed

PS - Latest update... I am now processing the final batch of fuel for what looks to be the year - It consists of 90% reclaimed diesel with drum washings from the WMO drums and processing plant making up the last 10% - This last 60 to 70 L will go into the last drum of de-watered sump-gunk for the last bit of fuel I will be running it on before I decarbon the plumbing system. Interestingly, today the power is slightly up on yesterday, if anything, I would have expected the warm weather (around 27C air temp) to have caused a bit of a power drop from yesterday... Goes to show, interesting times...

The performance/power has dropped now to below 4kw - 3.9kw to be precise - The original design spec was a nominal 4-5kw targeting 5kw if possible. This power output was largely attained, with the engine and genhead in "new" condition.... Peak instantaneous power of around 7.5kw is available from inertia store, but the sustained power output of 5kw is no longer possible - in rough figures, this would equate to around 10hp at the flywheel. Currently, it is running around the 8hp mark, or just under, giving an output of 3.9kw sustained max.

To recap - the engine has been down-rated from 1000rpm to 750rpm, at best it would be able to deliver(by estimate) around 2/3 to 3/4 of the design output of 12hp - ie 8 to 9Hp... so, in all, its still not doing too badly!

The unit is able to start and run on 100% WMO - Do I think its worth it? .... Possibly.... Yes.... if you have an unlimited supply of *free* fuel - this will cost you though, in time and effort - cleaning the fuel/finding the right injection timing to suit your batch of fuel(the timing required does change depending on the make up of the fuel...)/Setting up a water injection system to hold carbon deposits at bay/setting up an injector pre-heater for more efficient burn... and above all, getting the most out of the fuel you can by reclaiming exhaust heat/radiator heat as well....

Is it a lot of work... Yes.... Is it ongoing work.... Yes .... Is it a system that you can leave to the missus to run while you are away.... probably no... (but its one hell of a conversation piece with all sorts of fun!!)

Is it a viable alternative to on-grid living? ....


My opinion.....


Wait for it...


NO.... (Not if you have all the resources at your doorstep and the costs are not exorbitant....)


Is it viable to off-grid living? ....


My opinion.....


Wait for it...


YES .... (Damn....Have I been standing to close to the exhaust and inhaling too many fumes?)


If there is no grid connection for you, if you are out in the backwoods/desert/middle of bugger all and your day consists of trying to stay alive and make yourself a little more comfy for the cold night ahead.... This could be a viable way of doing it... Cheap too if you have access to WMO/WVO that people are begging to get rid of... The actual maintenance on these units is reasonably straight forward, only basic tools are required and if you know what you are getting into and can make provision for it, this is probably a way to go about it.. As a straight genhead, not worth it - as a cogen system, definitely worth it.... as a sole source of energy.... get 2... for the day you break an arm/leg and cant go and attend to the daily running chores... If possible, run it hard for a short period and use some form of energy storage to keep you going the other 22hrs of the day.... In suburbia, retrofitting the average power-hungry household....well... only you can decide.....

Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: dieselspanner on November 30, 2015, 05:57:08 PM
Hi Ed

A thread well worth following.

As Mr Prachett said "Wisdom comes from experience, experience is often a result of lack of wisdom"

Looks like I'm going to benefit from all of yours, my 6/1 cylinder head, the last bit of the refurb, got back from the machine shop in the UK today.

Thanks for sharing the results of all your efforts.

Stef
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: Tom on November 30, 2015, 07:02:19 PM
Those are pretty much the conclusions I came to during my WMO experiments. Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on November 30, 2015, 09:52:07 PM
Hey Tom and Stef,

Hope u guys had some interesting reading! It was fun writing it as I was doing it, something that I didn't get a chance to do way back when...

Stef, I have always maintained, when a person is born, they get issued with two buckets... one is labled "luck" and is full.... the other is labled "experience" and its empty... the trick is to finish your life, ending up with a full bucket of experience and just a little luck left over!

Tom, I was actually well aware, maybe well is too familiar a term, let's say I was pretty sure as to what the outcome would be, but nowhere that I saw, was there a reasonably well documented log of events that was relatively easy to read,  particularly for the newbie who knows little technically, but has the zest and gumption to want to give it a try... There are oodles of very technical articles that would scare the beginner away just from the length of words used... I hope I have put together some entertaining reading in the log that will encourage newer peeps to the diesel hobby world to  actually pull finger out of rear orifice and stop talking about it and "go do it" ... in all the playing around, unless you do something really silly, like no oil or coolant, rev the guts out of it or try and run it on nitroglycerine, these engines will be tolerant and forgiving... they will let you know (generally) well before they break by waving the smoke/rattle/boil flag.... if you keep running it while its warning you things are going awry, well, it will become an expensive mistake.....

As you might have noticed, this is not the first diesel I have played with, but it certainly is the first low revving single I have played with in many, many years...  The first single I cut my teeth on was way back in the late 60 early 70`s, I was knee high to a grasshopper then... I got a crash course from an old farm hand whose job it was to keep the green machine running ... it was pretty much his full time job... That is what originally opened my eyes to the tolerance these machines had to unskilled maintenance... The workbench was a sand floor and parts got wiped off before getting reassembled if they were lucky...

Its been good fun doing the mods, on a reactive and proactive basis, some things just need to be better, like governors, and balancing of course, and some things just need to be changed if you play around with "funny" fuels...

I am probably going to scrounge around for some more WMO to play with... so you haven't heard the last of me yet I don't think... I will keep Thump Monster running for a while yet, but not as much as I have... it has been running at least 10 to 15 hours a day so far, without a break... with the exception of one weekend in August when I went away for a hunting expedition...I will probably cut run time down to around 4 hours a day just for shits and giggles... it has become a bit of a "landmark" over the last few months and I wouldnt like to disappoint the neighbours... Lol....

As a waste oil disposal tool, I don't think you can beat it! Especially when the by products are hot water and a nice rhythmic beat... the number of mates that stop and visit, go silent, close other eyes and remark "this reminds me of......" These things are memories, long forgotten, that a simple machine brings back.... Money just can't buy.....

Anyways.... Enough of my rambling....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed


Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: mike90045 on December 01, 2015, 07:13:03 AM
Quote
I suspect that the exhaust is in need of a good decarboning

So, I know how to open the head, scrape carbon off and such.  But the exhaust  ?  A long bottle brush ?   Take it a part, bang the carbon out ?  I do see "soot" building up on the ground outside the muffler, so I know it's blowing some through the system, but how to clean it out ?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: dieselspanner on December 01, 2015, 07:39:55 AM
Mike,

Have a look at 'Starfire's posts, theres a bit in one of them about cleaning the exhaust system out with oxy / acetylene, honest!

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 01, 2015, 11:22:50 AM
Hi Mike and Stef,

There's 2 ways I have cleaned out carbon successfully, both are really dirty jobs.... wear lotsa old clothes and put plastic sheet down to catch the debris for the first....

1) Use a boiler fire-tube brush and rod - you can get them quite easily, if you like, I can post pics of what they look like... They come in specific sizes for the tubes you want to clean... They are basically "long bottle brushes" made of steel.... They work very well on straight sections of tubes, but they wont tolerate any elbows or bends.... Also, if you have a lot of gummy/sticky/slimy residue (think badly running 2-stroke) they are a pain in the ass to use.... They work best on "dry" carbon deposits...

2) This will clean out the tube regardless of type of carbon... but.... it is a very smokey and not so healthy way to do it.... stand upwind, at least 10000000km away from any EPA agent and do as follows while wearing safety mask, hazmat suit, breathing apparatus, safety goggles, and any other safety equipment you can buy....

Warm up the end of the exhaust with a burner till the carbon starts glowing.... inject oxygen and the carbon will ignite in an annular ring on the inside of the pipe, too much oxygen and it starts backfiring, too much oxygen and it burns too hot and burns through the exhaust walls, too little and the ring cools down, you will see the exhaust starting to glow as the ring travels along the inside, keep feeding just enough oxygen to keep it going, but not so much that it starts to get too hot... Lots of flames, fumes, smoke, and metal oxides exit the other end of the pipe while you are doing it...... Not good stuff for the environment or living creatures in general.... but, it is fun and very spectacular.....

Also...

Come to think of it, there is a third way.... build a big fire, throw the exhaust into it, get it nice and hot, all carbon turns to ash...... blow the ash out the next day once its cooled down..... or next month if you had a really big fire going..... This is probably the most "clean" way of doing it that I have come across.... no solvents like carbon-tet are used that have to be disposed of later.... also, if the fire is hot enough, very little carbon is airborne relatively speaking...

Bonus feature - once made red hot and cooled down, a light brushing with a wire brush is all thats needed to get it ready for its Xmas paint job!!

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed

PS - use anything I say with caution, at your own risk!!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 02, 2015, 06:45:31 PM
Hi guys....

A moment of silence please.......

.

.

.

Thump Monster died of terminal big end knockology today... I have laid him to rest in the morgue.... his organs will probably be harvested to customize Son of Thump Monster, or he may be reincarnated as ThumpMonsterV2...

The evening run yesterday was fine, power was a little down, but nothing to be alarmed about...  Power has been a bit on the low side since the 30th... 2 days ago.. I ascribed it to an exhaust carbon issue, how wrong I was! It was more than likely the start of the big end failure, interestingly enough, there was little to no unusual sounds from the beast while the failure was in progress... But then again, I am half deaf anyway, so maybe it was there but I did not hear it... whatever......

What actually happened...
This afternoon at 16h00 I started the beast to do the evening's cogen, all was reasonably OK, no major things were noted... I gave it the usual few minutes to get the thermo syphon rolling then switched to load... this was around 2.5kw, nothing major ... there was a little smokiness, as usual, as the top end was not fully warmed up as yet....  within about 15 minutes, there was what sounded like a bit of a diesel knock, but nothing major...  I went and consulted the great spinning oracle to see what was ailing, and while I was in his presence, the bearing collapsed fully.. there was instantly large volumes of smoke from the CC breather, the motor started to labour, and I removed the load... on shutdown, I did the usual checks, close injector pump, listen for knocking... nothing heard..... bring back to rev unloaded, nothing unusual heard, but revs slow to pick up... (at this stage I was still expecting the carbon exhaust clogging) .... close throttle and hit compression relief... nothing major heard, very little difference between compression and non compression spool down... When I checked the crankcase temperature, it was so hot you could not hold your hand on it... and this was after 15 to 30 mins or so of running.... Warning bells...  I popped the CC door off and did a quick visual... All seemed OK, oil level was good.... just lots a smoke and vapours... I spun the beast over on the starter motor with the door off, plenty oil pumping and splashing about... just bloody hot! ... I put on the compression relief and turned the motor over to 90° on the compression stroke and then dropped the relief.... (this gives you a bit of piston resistance to look for play by rocking the crankshaft back and forth) ... On rocking the crankshaft by the flywheel, I saw a LARGE amount of play on the big end bushing.... An alarmingly large amount, guestimatons of .5mm or maybe more....

At that point, I replaced the cover.... cursed the friction gods.... flew the flag at half mast ....  and fetched the surgical tools to extricate the monster from its chassis.... 15min later, or slightly longer... 8 bolts and 3 hose clamps later, TM was on a portable gibbet in route to the morgue for forensic analasys...  (or organ donation.... or the glue factory... oh wait... no hooves... cancel that last one...)

Tomorrow if all goes well, I will set up a theatre to do a post mortem.... possibly even start with the teardown to see what actually happened...

Keep it spinning.... (While I can't...)

Regds
Ed

PS... of all the things I expected to fail... the big end was probably one of the last items on the list.... Rings, cylinder walls, valves were much more likely because of fuel type run... ? Go figure...

Oh... and the exhaust by the way... a light carbon coating, probs no more than 1/2mm thich at entrance from exhaust port... relatively speaking, very little carbon evident at all.... Way different to what I was expecting...
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: cujet on December 02, 2015, 09:20:22 PM
Interesting description of the bearing failure. If injection timing is too advanced or unstable, bearing oil cavitation will occur and result in bearing damage. Can you estimate the number of hours on this bearing?

I also have to wonder about oil contamination due to water, or fuel used.

I hope you can simply polish the crank, install a new bearing, change the oil and go on your way.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 02, 2015, 11:58:18 PM
Hey Chris,

Injection was fine, timing wise anyway... got 1600 hrs plus some small change on the bearing, water is not evident, nor is the oil degraded to any large degree.. at startup today anyway.... it was due for an oil change so I have been monitoring the oil condition quite closely...

I am suspect though that there might have been a trapped sand pocket gone unnoticed, which might have opened up and caused the damage... anything is possible, at this stage... another possibility is that a ring collapsed, blow by super heated the crankcase inner, oil thinned and broke down, bearing took a pounding.... that seems most likely at this stage because there was one hell of a lot of blow by all of a sudden... but then again, maybe the blow by has been unnoticed up till now and was only really evident once it was carrying a lot of oil vapour, making it highly visible... interestingly, there was even visible oil vapour coming from below the tappet guide clamp area... this is surely something I wold of seen had it been present previously... there has been no oil leaks which would be indicative of major blow by too...(due to excessive crankcase pressure... on these beasts, anything above about 1/2 atmosphere absolute, causes oil to gush forth... Lol... )

Anyways... enough speculating... let's see what the evidence supports...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: dieselspanner on December 03, 2015, 09:45:48 AM
On a positive note, it gives you the chance to look up Starfire's post on making your own big end bearing shells!

I did it, it's not hard, but thought my crank pin was too far tapered to try them without causing catastphoic damage, so went for a (very expensive, French) regrind.

Stef
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: 38ac on December 03, 2015, 01:18:51 PM
There are some very good bearing failure guides on line complete with pictures. Unfortunately it is my experience that when they get to the stage yours is that barring something obvious it is very hard to determine what started it all and easy to speculate.

It has been fun reading along here with you experiment but truthfully I have been sitting by waiting for the day of reckoning. Your experience here is very similar to what a person can read and what I have experienced with customer engines in the shop. And that is an Indian engine not taken down and thoroughly cleaned and corrected is a 1000-1500 hour engine. Some have gotten lucky and got more hours, most get less, a few lots less. 

For work engines  the economics  largely favor fixing the known problems prior to running them. Yes, it makes for a very expensive engine if you dont do the work yourself but proven over and over again to be a cheaper route than running them as shipped and the very real possibility of having a pile of scrap on your hands at 1000 hours.

Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 03, 2015, 03:15:28 PM
Hi Stef,

Been there... even made and recast linear slides for windmill heads in my dim, distant youth.... prefer doing big ends sized and matched by credit card weight now....

I might just, maybe, pull myself out of my metallic years (Gold in the teeth, silver in the hair....and lead in the ass) and make a set for myself.... They are fun to make if you have the time....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 03, 2015, 03:43:50 PM
Hi 38AC,

Agreed, on pretty much all counts... Lets see what the teardown brings to light... I have just been to busy today to play with spanners... Had a stack of "other peoples toys" to fix up and get out of the workshop....

There are a few things that are ringing warning bells in my ears... or is that tinitis... but more on that later...

I am really keen to see what failed and to what extent - not with a feeling of dread, but one of extreme interest - I am familiar with the wear patterns on bearings and bushings .... done quite a few forensics on them things in the past...

Right now I have to go and attend to my batch of baby boa constrictors... the stork arrived late last night....

Cheers for now...

Regds
Ed

Right... between Boas, visitors and supper, not much got done this eve.... Strange how things crop up when there are fun things to do... At least the new boa pups are doing well, 13 more than healthy, 1 weakish and 1 that looks like its going to join my big end bearing... shame, but that's life....

Hopefully tomorrow evening I will get the thumpmonster onto the slab and get the forensics stared...
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 04, 2015, 11:05:45 AM
Hi Guys,

Whats better than a Lister(oid).....Simple answer...... 2!

Thumpmonster 2 arrives tomorrow(hopefully) .... I will be putting it straight to COGEN work after the briefest of teardowns and inspections... This will be the interesting part though... The teardown and inspection will be based on the TM1's forensics.... Lets see what happens and what is found.

My previous post remarked on a warning bell I had ringing and I think I know the answer.... Whilst a good hot run does not do these babies any bad, running in the 100 to 110C mark on these engines is in my opinion just a little too hot for full loading. Possibly I am wrong, if anybody can give me information regarding wear as related to prolonged loading at these higher temperatures, it would put my mind at ease...

My reason for these thoughts is that the bulk of the wear and sudden failure seemed to occur over the last while when the engine was running at the higher temperature - my logic tells me that whilst an upper boundary top end temperature is better to good for running less than premium fuels, the lubrication system on the lower end of the motor is not really suited to this. Engine wear around the 85 to 90C mark was progressive, or seemed so, and in line with normal limits. Once temperatures were elevated, combustion seemed better, but lower end and particularly blowby wear increased suddenly... a matter for concern. (Again, possibly I am incorrect - this is just surmising at this stage.)

Methinks a rethink will be in order - a trade off, so as to speak - These are my plans for TM2: Keep head and cylinder in the mid 80-90C temp range, but preheat the injector and fuel to around the 95 to 105C mark to get reasonable combustion. Push the injector pop to around the 2500PSI mark (Was around 2000PSI standard) to aid in atomisation too. Keep a thumb on the diesel knock and monitor(A tuned ear will have to do here, I have no way of measuring this currently). Keep the WI system in place, this has done nothing but good things, the carbon buildups are very low considering the fuels run.

The interesting thing to see, will be the "personality" of TM2 in comparison to TM1 whilst running on the same chassis and setup - could be interesting, very interesting indeed.

On a really nice note for you Lister-Heads out there - It looks like I can get these babies over the counter so as to speak without much problem at all(Today's price is USD1277.27 pre shipping etc for a 12Hp Single CBW 127Bore 139.7Stroke 1000RPM 550KG Engine)... The suppliers I am dealing with seem quite pleasant and helpful... If anybody would like to try and get a unit or two I can put you in touch with the guys (please note: I have no vested interest in the transaction whatsoever)

Anyways... Enough of my rambling....yet again....!

Time to go back to do some work.... work=money=Listers and all things good!!

Keep it spinning....(While I cant!)

Regds
Ed

PS - Here are some pics of what the stork brought for Jez and Leo (mommy and daddy boa) http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Baby Boa Pics 20151204 (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Baby Boa Pics 20151204)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: carlb23 on December 04, 2015, 11:51:27 AM
Ed,

While i dont run my 6/1 on a regular basis as it is just for backup. I did have an issue with mine overheating when a cooling fan failed.  The engine seized up at around 225F.  Normally it runs 190 degrees F.  After the engine cooled for about 15 minutes it again spun over freely.  The piston/cylinder clearance had gotten too tight as i could see the rod try to push and pull the piston when moving the flywheels. I started the engine once it had cooled some and fixed the cooling fan.  It ran fine but since it had not been apart since 2007 I figured I would just go through it. Out of an abundance of caution I tore the engine down. After careful inspection everything looked fine.  There was a little wear on the big end bearing but nothing to be concerned about, but, i replaced them anyway since i had several spears. I polished the crank pin and gave the cylinder a quick honing, put it back together and it is running fine.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 04, 2015, 03:44:10 PM
Hi Carl,

That was a close call.... Converting to C that brings seize point to about 107C... TM1 is well worn, at one stage I had it operating around the 105C mark as part of the trials - The top end, once well worn in, or almost worn out depending on how you look at it, could handle the 105 mark, albeit with an increased wear rate... At 87C(190F) they seem quite happy to run... At 90C(195F) they seem to run better still...At 95C they handle grease and peanut fuel better(well almost peanut butter ... Lol) ... As you step up the temps in increments as I did, they run better and better, but wear faster and faster...

The elevated EGT combined with WI made this baby a champion around the 100C mark... It performed very, very well, ingesting most things I threw at it with ease, minimum carbon buildups too... The problem with these temps though, is being able to regulate them accurately with minimal electronic control - It is easy to put a PLC onto the beast and control temps accurately, but that is not always within the means of the average DIY user... Hence the playing around with the temp switches as mentioned previously... Also, with the elevated running temps, there is very little room for error, as running at the higher temp range, with 100% glycol, boil off does not give as dramatic a "temperature control" as you would get with water, or with a water based unpressurised cooling system.... It is one thing to have a beast ticking over at a high temperature on minimal or part loading - it is a completely different creature when the temps are high and it is pulling full or near full load... That was the demise of TM1 I reckon... High load and high temps for extended time periods... The lube system on these monsters are not really designed for these conditions - Anything from an external oil cooler/filter through to thicker oil would have assisted with keeping the big end in shape, but that was not the object of the exercise either(not for me anyway)...

In your instance, although overheated, I surmise it happened quite quickly and the upper engine bound up....Lubricants would have been over temp, but not to the degree that they broke down... In the case of TM1, I am surmising that the final run(combined with the last bit of the previous days running) caused the lower section of the engine to heat up dramatically, breaking down the lube properties of the oil to a degree that the big end bearing failed... Teardown still has to happen though, so all of this is "pie in the sky" at this stage, but there have been some votes cast, so lets see what or if I can accurately determine to be the root cause of the failure is. (Incidentally, I recorded the external crankcase, main bearing carriers and crankcase cover at around the 102C mark... This was just after shutting down...The inside temp was quite a few degrees above that, but the oil was not at boiling point as yet... It was difficult to determine if the oil vapor that was being expelled from the CC breather was blow-by related or from the splashed lube contacting the piston/liner ....)

Hold thumbs - not everybody is prepared to run a beast like this on a "lets break it" basis to see how far it can be pushed...Lol

Keep it Spinning....(While I cant!)

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: BruceM on December 04, 2015, 05:10:04 PM
Very interesting thread, Ed, thanks very much for the fun reading.

I have doubts that oil overheating was the primary cause here, as the sump oil in these beasts is notoriously low temperature.

Since you describe the crankcase as very hot, friction is the more likely source, and I would suspect main bearing failure (edit- I meant connecting rod big end bearing) as a primary cause.  This could have been precipitated by sand damage, as you wisely suggested, as the upper main bearing surface is particularly vulnerable to sand dripping down from the piston and conrod since this is it's normal lube path.  (I've had this problem myself due to sabotage via black hard grease filled with casting sand stuck up under the piston crown where it could not be seen without removing conrod from piston.)  Checking the upper bearing surface regularly is my best advice for catching sand damage before it goes critical.  The lower surface typically does not show this, which is annoying since it is much easier to check.

Other likely suspects for your TM1 are defective connecting rod large end bearings (I had several sets that spalled very badly with very few running hours), and poor machining of the connecting rod, such that you have either highly variable clearance along the bearing or with a bit of break in,  wildly out of spec bearing clearance (I've had this also.)  Machining of connecting rods seems to be a problem, among others, in Rajkot. I've gotten two that were defective.

I'll be very interested in your forensic analysis on TM1.  After my experience on my 6/1 Listeroid, I would never put one of these into service without a full tear down and crankcase strip/blast/grind.  I do understand for your experimental purposes why you'd want to omit that, as it is very time consuming, but it could also taint your research results.  I hope you will find a clear cut cause in your forensic analysis.

Best Wishes,
Bruce



Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 04, 2015, 09:23:26 PM
Hi Bruce,

Possibly not the primary cause, as you say, but I have been doing a lot of thinking and supposing... What about this scenario, it certainly fits the symptoms:

Compression ring(s) collapse, engine output power drops, rack opens to try and compensate... blow by worsens, and large volumes of combustion bypass at high temp slips past the piston, heating the internals and lube oil... oil thins accordingly, starts to break down, friction increases with the thinned oil, more heat is generated, the situation worsens.....

The main bearings were still turning smoothly after the beast was shut down, so I don't think there was any failure on he TRB side of things... normally you can feel or hear a rumble from them when they are shot. I have also been doing a bit of what if, regarding sand in the big end... I do not think it likely at this stage(but I could be wrong) ... Here is the reasons for my reversal of opinion ... I have installed a fairly fine pickup filter on the pump inlet... way larger in surface area than the original, it occupies most of the sump apron just below the weir.... the entire sieve  is below oil level  when running so oil starvation is unlikely... the oil pump picks up the oil and delivers it to the main TRB's as well as to a centrifugal ring on the far side of the crankshaft... If I observed correctly when I did the initial brief check over on this machine, this centrifugal ring feeds oil under pressure to the big end journal... if I remember correctly, the splash lube was only for the cam , gears and followers as well as the cylinder walls and piston skirt etc... maybe I am wrong, but I will check...

If this is the case, casting sand would be well tolerated by this beast from a big end perspective...little or no sand could make its way into the journal from the splash lubing against the pressure lubing...

As to defective bearing shells or machining, of this I am also not too sure as this beast has over 1600  hrs on it... but hey, anything is possible... You said that you have had failures after very few running hours... approximately how many if I might ask... I would like to compare experience please...

In general, TM was fairly well put together, nothing glaringly obvious was bad, my opinion of the failure at this stage of running is pretty much that I pushed it a bit far... particularly with the high temp trials... that's when things seemed to start going downhill quickly.... but as said before, let's pull it apart and see what made it go skew!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: BruceM on December 05, 2015, 05:04:03 AM
" If I observed correctly when I did the initial brief check over on this machine, this centrifugal ring feeds oil under pressure to the big end journal... if I remember correctly, the splash lube was only for the cam , gears and followers as well as the cylinder walls and piston skirt etc... maybe I am wrong, but I will check..."

Not if your TM1 machine is any of the common Listeroids- the big end journal is oiled by splash and drip down from above, making it a dandy sand catcher, and making the upper bearing surface where sand damage shows first.

The Listeroid TRBs seem to eat a lot of sand with no problems, my originals are still going strong despite the sand/grease sabotage under my piston crown.  TRB's, the 4 (big) bolt head, and splash only lube are all Rajkot "improvements" you won't hear me complaining about; I think they are all perfectly OK, though I don't mind the original (Rajkot clone) configuration either.  (Having worked on both.)

 Sorry I confused things- I didn't think your failure had anything to do with crankshaft TRBs or Bush bearings, I meant the connecting rod big end bearing shells.  Mine showed spalling (white metal flaking off at center of top surface) in just 100 hrs. I switched to hollow dipper and a special order of solid upper bearing (no grooves, no oil entry hole on top) and this problem was solved.  I suspect just poor quality bearings, as Lister ran those same design bearings for a long, long time.

Looking forward to your inspection results!  A listeroid murder mystery...









Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 05, 2015, 11:22:22 PM
Hi Guys, you too Bruce...

TM is defs a TRB clone with a centrifugal big end oil feed... Tesrdown pics are at http://WWW.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Teardown 20151205 TM1 (http://WWW.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Teardown 20151205 TM1)

I found the cause of the failure.... a badly brazed oil feed pipe and an unbrazed joint that feeds it... take a look at pic number 577 to see the assembly as it should be... pic 583 is similar... pic 584 is what it looked like when I opened the door now that TM is out of its chassis... the horizontal feed pipe was pushed into the end mounting by about 4mm, not press fitted, simply a push fit... this should probe have been brazed in place to prevent it vibrating out... what is not shown is that this pipe is fed from the opposite side fitting, and it can slip back into the fitting as well, blocking or at least obscuring the feed to the LHS bearing too... if there is a bit of splash, the TRBs can handle it, but not the big end by the looks of it... pics 578 to 582 show how the bad brazing of the vertical pipe has allowed it to drop against the rhs TRB cage... this ground off a small amount of the end cap which has a horizontal hole in it to feed the bearing and the thrower ring, the rhs hole was closed by the bearing cage contact, all filings were pushed out the lhs hole and into the thrower ring... this fed all the filings into the big end journal probably, if not a good part of them anyway... the filings had their way with the big end, there was a bit of a bearing knock that developed, and with just that little extra vibration, the cross feed pipe probably detached.... good bye bearing halves and big end...  all of this probably transpired in less than 15 mins of running....

Pic 592 onwards show the big end damage, it is difficult to judge by the pics the extent of the scoring... suffice it to say that a quick polish is NOT going to sort it out... pic 596 and 597 clearly show the entry point for the abrasive particles, if they were from splashed sand, they would be in 2 rows concentrated either side of center feed, the feed holes are present on this conrod too.

The fines pickup filter I have in place on the pump pickup has done a stirling job of preventing the metal from entering the lube system.. not that it helped though... the metal contamination was introduced at probably the worst point possible... into the centri feeder just before the big end...  really shitty luck!

Incidentally, there is no sand to be seen in the  sump apron, the thick red gunk the sump has been painted with is probably holding it at bay...Lol...

There is a little wear on the rings and cylinder, but thet are smooth, with no scoring as such... there is a ridge on the liner, this I was expecting, but it is not too bad (haven't measured it yet), certainly not the worst I have seen... of concern though, is the top ring groove, it has worn substantially, probs about .1mm slack in it, I might have to open it up and put a shim in above the ring....

The walls of the piston look good so far, a couple of tiny, very tiny spots that have been galled by metal debris, but nothing that can't be polished out...

The top end seems excellent, with only a very tiny amount of carbon evident.... strange... I expected more...

Cam gears look good, followers and cam are fine, minimal backlash or wear... Main bearing are excellent, no rumble or roughness evident... looks like the big end did a great job of catching the crap!

Small end bushing is clean and well fitting, just don't like the idea of it being a split bush though...

Gudgeon pin is loose in the piston, not tight, but no real slack either... no hesitation in reusing it...

Oil pump and feeds are perfect, excepting the bad standpipe and last feed joint...

Incidentally, pic 563 shows the level of the oil is up to the weir... so defs plenty was splashing round and available...

Pic 569 clearly shows the stand pipe resting against the bearing cage pre cleaning and blowing out with paraffin...

Well, beside the big end, everything has held up very well....

If anybody can or has spotted anything that i might have missed, or messed up with my deductions, please chip in and give me another perspective....

Goes to show... pie in the sky is pie in the sky.... all of my votes I cast previously were not even close!

Keep it spinning.... mine can't!

Regds
Ed

PS... cmon lads.... gimme your viewpoint on the debacle...
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: BruceM on December 06, 2015, 01:36:19 AM
That's a new one for me, Ed.  I've never seen or read of a Listeroid with big end bearing oil feed through a hollow crank, and I've been following both forums for about 10+ years now.  Has anyone else seen this before???

Alas, your photo link didn't work for me, even copied and pasted as the url. 

So sad that besides some expected ring wear from your WMO use, everything else was looking good until the oil feed pipe slipped against the TRB and provided "grist for the mill".  So to speak. 

Sorry about your crank scoring, that really sucks.

I think I like my older Metro 6/1 with TRBs, only splash/hollow dipper lube more and more; simple is good.

I also wanted to thank you, Ed,  for your writing on water injection.  I've had a recent loss of power, and after reading Mr X's thread on water injection and reading of your success with it even for WMO, I grabbed a spray bottle and after getting her warmed up and under a decent load, I started spraying into the intake.  My helper said there was a BIG cloud of black soot shooting out the exhaust when I first started spraying.  It worked, and now she will carry my normal full load again, saving me a tear down for decarbonizing. 

At about 3000 engine hrs total this winter, I'm getting a bit more gray in the  exhaust and more black smoke under heavy load.  Burns 3/4 quart of oil in 200 hrs.  So I guess it's about time for a tear down; I'm still on the original rings despite the early sand trouble.  It's a liner design so I may just do a new liner as well as new rings and valves since they are fairly cheap.  I want to get her up to snuff for the next decade of running.










Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: 38ac on December 06, 2015, 01:54:42 AM
For some reason I cannot open the pictures but seems to me that the  centrifugal ring system of oiling the rod is a trait of the GM90 type engines?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: tiger on December 06, 2015, 02:45:57 AM
on the pics go back to the python pics top of page hit directory then pics dated 12/5
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: cujet on December 06, 2015, 03:18:00 AM
Bad link for pics
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: BruceM on December 06, 2015, 03:55:02 AM
I was able to navigate the filesystem and find the photos... the crank big end journal sure is well grooved now.   :(

Is TM1 a GM90 then?  Weren't the GM90's also direct injection?

Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 06, 2015, 10:20:10 AM
Hi Guys'

Just corrected the link ... damn spelling corrector... you should be able to get into it now...

Pleasure Bruce... there has been so much BS about WI on the forums, I felt it was about time to put it to bed with a practical recount... hope it helps u guys out there... it certainly did for me... it was very impressive to see mid to long term ongoing results...

As to ThumpMonster1 being a GM90, I can't say... the labels on mine read Opex ... I think there was a reference to  another brand that was on the instruction manual that I downloaded for it when I was looking for clearance specs.. I will see it I can scratch it out and will give u a link to it... EDIT... Found it... here it is...http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Manual/ (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Manual/) The first page has a ghost image of the cover of the manual from when it was scanned... Mercury ... it is visible in reverse print... It seems to match most of TM1 barring the misprints...

Thumpmonster2 should be here later today, just got word that its en route here now ...

Take a look at the pics if u can and see if you think its worth approaching importer for a warranty claim... 4 months on a crank is a bit short I would say... especially because it failed in the way it did...

Keep it spinning..

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 06, 2015, 11:54:35 AM
Hi guys

ThumpMonster2  has just arrived, gonna pull it apart quickly and check the innards, then transfer the bulk of the external mods to him and see if I can get him spinning...

Before anybody shouts at me, .... yes, I will scope for sand etc, but from 4 months of hard running on TM1, the internal coatings seem to hold pretty much everything at bay... let's see how he behaves...

(I will of course give that oil line a really close looking at before starting!)

Regds
Ed

Part ii

Right, so 4 hrs of playing around later, this is what has been accomplished...

TM2 has been prepped in his most basic form... all innards have been checked out, bearing clearances are in order, head and all other bolts have been torqued down, mods have been transfered from TM1 and fitted, oil has been filled, oil pump and circulation has been checked and is working fine, IP side flywheel has been moved out by about 20mm to allow for easy governor link access, GiB keys have been checked tight, GiB key puller has been made... and it works too... tappets set and checked, injector checked and torqued down, injector pipe replaced as the original was a little shabby and out of shape, inlet and exhaust manifold studs cleaned up, coolant flanges removed and one port needs to be opened a little because of flash, crank runout has been checked and is in spec, ......

Then, for fun, I pulled the flywheels off TM1,.... this took most of the time actually....prepping TM2 only took about an hour or so... on the whole, these units seem pretty much OK, very little sand, in fact nothing found at all, mostly dust... the innards seem to have a very tough epoxy coat that seals it very well.... unfortunately due to time constraints, there were no pictures taken during the check over, but suffice it to say, there was nothing spectacular... the most spectacular items were possible transport damage... the governor arm and injector line were slightly bent, probs from tying down on an ldv for the 400km trip home... nothing serious.... a quick bit of cold blacksmithing got them smooth again...Lol...

Sometime a little later, I pulled the compression rings from TM1 and stuck them in the bore to check gaps... the top ring is well worn with about a 1/4" gap... the second is a bit less worn with about 1/8" gap, the third has about 1/16" gap, top oil ring has collapsed and barely clears the piston outer perimeter, possibly it is carbon jammed... the bottom oil control ring looks perfect and is in good shape... the progressive wear is what has been expected, what I was not expecting though is the large wear on the ring groove on the top... this should be quite easy to work round with a spacer shim inserted above the ring....

One thing I noticed is that the top oil control ring is spring assisted and ported, the bottom oil ring is just ported... anybody have similar?

Another thing noted was that TM2 has an oil dipper flat on to the oil whilst TM1 was knife edged to the oil... Comments?

I am looking at installing double flywheels on TM2 eventually, but what I am going to do is rebalance TM1 fully once the crank debacle is sorted out... it will be interesting to see how TM2 runs balance wise.. TM1 was a bit of a pain until I got it smoothed out a bit... I might just pull the wheels off TM2 just before I mount it up and see how they are... much easier to balance these beasts when the wheels are in spec...

Anyways... enough rambling yet again....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 07, 2015, 08:25:32 PM
Hey guys,

A minor update to the TM series...

Windy, dusty, then rainy.... TM and brother can have a days rest.... Tomorrow is another day!

Did speak to the suppliers though... hopefully things will be sorted... just gotta wait and see...

About all that was really accomplished was cleaning, cleaning and more cleaning... should be able to put the TM1 flywheels on a balancing stand soon to see how they look... pity someone borrowed mine, can't remember who it was... too long ago... oh well, let's just make another one...

TM2 is looking good... I am considering putting on an external oil filter, was wondering if anybody has got any info on the oil change intervals once it has been installed... has it been worth it? Has it extended the change interval required, or has it just been for peace of mind?

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 08, 2015, 09:40:44 AM
Hey Guys,

When a day starts good, and only gets better!!

Got called out this morning to sort out a problem animal on a neighboring farm.... A vicious, runaway, wild and untamed sheep that had decided it was not going to be on the lunch menu.. 75m... sorted... mutton for lunch...(for the neighbor anyway..) :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Then called the suppliers, they are sending a new crank, TRB's, Big End Bushing, Head and base gaskets, and a few other odds and ends....  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

They took a look at the pictures sent and started picking the stock from their spares warehouse.... what a pleasure to deal with these lads, awesome!!

Should have the spares here either just before or just after the weekend... <happy dance><happy dance><happy dance>

Now.... Here's the question.... What would you do? - I have a brand new engine 99% prepped to install and run on WMO.... I have the original engine, a couple of days away from being fully rebuilt to run on WMO....  ??? ??? ??? Which would you install ??? ??? ???

Keep it spinning!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: carlb23 on December 08, 2015, 11:51:39 AM
I would probably wait and rebuild TM1 and put it back to work and see how long it lasts before needing repair again.  This will give you a better idea of what to expect since the failure of TM1 appears to be the oil feed pipe.   I would have TM2 at the ready if TM1 fails again.  Did you check the bore on TM1?  I am a little surprised to see that much ring wear @ 1600 hours.

Based on what you have seen i would think a freshening up of TM1 should be wise after about 1500 hours.  Maybe the wear which seems to be excessive will get better but why take a chance.    A re-ringing and big end check at 1500 is what i would do.   I think a good WI schedule is a must in this situation.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: billswan on December 08, 2015, 01:23:40 PM
hello guys

I looked through the pix of the failure and have to say the engine is built with the same oil feed ring that my old 10/1 had. I believe that engine was built in about 2007. So there is someone over in india building listeroids with drilled cranks for crank pin  oiling. It is to bad listerenginegallery is dead as there were some pix there of my old engine and that oiling ring on it's crankshaft.

Billswan
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 08, 2015, 03:12:38 PM
Hey Carl,

You are thinking the same way I am... but.... I want to try something that they used to do way back when, when fuels were not the greatest quality....

The bore hasn't been mic'd yet, this time I that I have stripped it, I will probably do that and check over the topside when I have done the bottom end up... All depends on the beer level on the day I grab the spanner set...Lol..

What I am interested in trying, is cutting and double ringing the top and maybe second groove, the top groove is well worn from the sump gunk I am burning..... I would rate that, at the previous head off gasket on swop-over that i did, I checked the bore quickly whilst in place, and there was a bit of wear at the top end(I expected this), a ring set would last about 1500hrs on average based on the wear that i see on the top rings now...What I am keen to try is to see how the double ring scenario copes with the wear and how it affects the cylinder wear too... Do you recall if anybody has tried the double-top and second route yet?

One engine that was like this with 2 rings per groove, was the Paisley, if I remember correctly.... They were low revving engines, even by Lister standards, I think they topped off around 300rpm... not sure though....

At the very least I will have to install a ring shim on 1 and 2, there is just too much play in the groove for my liking....

Having looked at the crank and supports up close, I have a gut feel that these thumpers have more than enough strength in the crank department for a speed downgrade yet further from the 750 I am running to 500 and then a double up in the wheels department... I really gotta get a second set of wheels.... no, make that a third set... I don't wanna strip TM2's turny bits, he is still way too handsome... (the reason for the speed downgrade - harder to burn oils can be coped with.... and singles sound oh so nice running down low!)

Again I ramble on.....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 08, 2015, 04:18:22 PM
Hey Bill,

I am trying to think where I first saw a splash lube engine with an oil collector/feeder for the big end... it was around 1970 or so, and the engine was quite second hand by then.... I think it was a 'JAP' engine, not Japanese, but tradename... I was sorting and building up a few engines of various types and makes at the time so don't take it as gospel that it was... What I do remember though was the absence of oil pump and the splash catch disk was a disk that fitted the crank quite closely...as opposed to the ring in the roids we have...

If u can post me a couple of pics of your one's innards, I would be interested to see the similarities....

I am not convinced of the ring feed versus the disk feed, the chances of the pump feed actually hitting the ring and not over or undershooting it are quite good.... might be worthwhile to do a bit of investigation in this department to see if matters can be improved... possibly fabricate and add a hollow dipper at the very least too...I doubt that too much oil would be a problem, way better than too little.... Nowhere have I come across information regarding standpipe position relative to the bearing/ring... too close or far and it will miss the target.... It would also be interesting to see how and if the ring picks up much oil from the splashing.... It obviously does work, as can be seen in my bearing failure pics, filings did a good job in line with the lube hole in the big end... They must have been carried in there by the pulses from the oil pump....

This is the great thing about these engines... so much to play with, without breaking the bank... (too badly)

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 10, 2015, 08:52:19 PM
Hey guys,

I think I found my big end bearing! ... Its coated my oil strainer!

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Bearing Deposits on Oil Strainer/ (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Bearing Deposits on Oil Strainer/)

I Reckon I could almost make a new one out of the recovered debris! The strainer you see in the picture is about 1/4 the mesh size of the original POS... I think it did a good job of clearing out the chaff in the dying minutes of running... there was no debris found in either main bearing found... The filter originates from a hydraulic power pack I had lying around, in fact the tank of which has been repurposed as a day tank for TM1....The strainer only just fits into the apron, and gets screwed onto the pickup from the inside... once in place, it has about an inch of oil above it and with the corrugated sides, oil flowing over the top, catches any debris before it hits the lower reaches of the sump... when you drain oil, the debris can be clearly seen, giving an indicator of the extent of the cleanup and mopping that is required...

For you gents who are not familiar with the centrifugal oil feed for the big end, here are a few pics to show its placing and basic construction in relation to the journal end.. http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Crank Oil Catcher/ (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Crank Oil Catcher/) ... Simple, but effective...

Now... I should be running the TM... but I am awaiting the replacement spares... this is a dangerous thing... the devil makes work for idle hands... and minds!

Has anybody out there played with synchronized generators before.... I did it way back and I am considering doing it again... I have 3 basic choices to play with... picture this.... 2 identical 12hp roids... 2 gen heads that are almost Identical ... one Petter PH1 in reasonable condition.. quite a few single and 3 phase induction motors that can be driven by the Petter or one roid to act as an inductive genhead supplementing the prime mover for peaks... or,.... make up 2 primes, one as a fallback.... or.... one prime on a gen head, with the other prime down rated further as a synchro with the gen head, one prime running bulk of the load, second brought online for extra heavy loads, this second capable of overnight running on its own to sustain the household and servers to run minimal loads, with the Petter available purely as a 'booster'  inductive gen incapable of solo running, but there to boost either of the other two should the need arise...

So many choices! And..... so much fun! Wonder what I am going to blow up tomorrow........?

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: carlb23 on December 10, 2015, 10:55:00 PM
I see smoke in your future, but i hope i'm wrong.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: billswan on December 11, 2015, 01:39:54 AM
ed

You asked me to post up a pix of my old 10/1. Well after seeing your pix in the quote below i see no reason to dig for my old pictures as your crank and oil ring look identical to what was in my engine.

By the way I also run mine on WMO mixed with some diesel or gasoline and as best as i can remember i believe by some where around 1600 to 2000 hours it became so worn out compression wise it required and electric motor to spin it fast enough to get it to start. Camshaft finally  broke and i pushed it aside and began using  a larger metro to make power and heat in my shop.


For you gents who are not familiar with the centrifugal oil feed for the big end, here are a few pics to show its placing and basic construction in relation to the journal end.. http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Crank Oil Catcher/ (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Crank Oil Catcher/)

quote]
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 11, 2015, 08:57:22 AM
Hi Carl,

Been there, done it.... not much smoke either! The trick is to get really high tech - use a light globe between the 2 live lines coming from the primes - Not the energy saver ones, the good old incandescent's....

Here's how you do it:
Set up the alternator voltage outputs as close as you can to each other using the excitation voltage trimming - once the voltages are close, common the neutrals and then set the frequencies as close as you can with the governors, its best to put a small similar load on each of the alternators while you are doing this... around 20% of full load is normally ok... for this you use the really high tech kit, the light bulb.... It will pulse while the frequencies are not similar... as soon as the frequencies get close, the bulb starts pulsing slower and slower. With mech governing, you will never get them 100% matched, but that is not a problem, but get them as close as you can (as much black time on the bulb as possible). Once that is done, go back to your voltage settings and set them as close as you can once again(Leave the governor alone now)...

Do a final test on low independent load and check for frequency mismatch using your hi-tech kit, if all is ok, you can then shutdown the system and connect the live's together AFTER a safety breaker on each head. Your syncro bulb must be connected BEFORE this breaker...

To start the system, open both breakers first - then start the engines. once they are stable, bring the first onto load by closing its breaker. As the second will be running unloaded, the frequency variation will show by the pulsing of the light, the better your governor setup, the slower the pulsing.... As soon as the light goes black, close the breaker...

Your gens are now running your load together and sharing it... (Oh yes, don't believe all the BS out there that the gens have to be 100% identical to do this - as long as they are on very similar voltage and frequency settings, it will work...) You must be careful however if you are using a VERY slow turning prime - Too much pulsing will mess you around....

As a demo to show someone a few months back, I coupled my 900Va screamer to TM1(5KVa) using some jumper leads.... Worked fine....

As a side note - I have not sync'd head units with AVR's in them, but I don't see any reason why they shouldn't perform the same way....probs be easier to set up voltages too, as the voltage output is semi-independent of the frequency... ... ...

Keep it smoking.....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 11, 2015, 09:46:32 AM
Hi Bill,

Cool stuff... Thanks for coming back to me... How many hours before the cam broke on the 10, and about how many on the Metro now?

Looks like the 1750hr mark is about the time to do rings on WMO - I run mine on WMO/Dino mix, most of the hard starting I put down to gummy rings from standing and cooling overnight, might be wrong though... I preferred the electric motor start, not just because of ease, but allowing it to wind over for a couple of minutes unloaded on electric got everything nicely oiled up.... besides the big end and ring groove on the top end, I wouldn't have much hesitation putting TM1 back together as it is now, the end gaps on the rings are a "bit" large, but there wasn't much blow by at all... Just gonna do all the bits while its apart....

Oh yes, my CI is well above the 400 mark, probably closer to 6 or 700 actually, haven't really counted them before.... Lol...That should get you thinking!!

Regds
Ed

PS... A bit of an afterthought.... What were the major wear areas you picked up on the 10/1 that were attributable to the nasty fuel you were using... Piston/Rings/Liner maybe? Or other things too?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: carlb23 on December 11, 2015, 12:22:03 PM
Ed,

While i understand the light bulb method i have never done it because i have never had the need since i have my m 6/1 metro and a 10kw Natural gas gen if i need more power.  It appears that you have done the many times before so I defer to you knowledge and experience on this matter.   When i read the first post about you hooking the two generators together I thought you were going to try it for the first time.

Carl

Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 11, 2015, 02:05:13 PM
No prob Carl!!

The first time I hooked a couple together, there was definitely a bit of smoke involved, actually quite a lot of smoke if I remember correctly, quite spectacular too.... "School fees" I believe it is called... Even at the time, my dad told me I was nuts.... then I asked a very simple question.... "How do the power stations do it?" .... A lot of thought then ensued and we came up with a few ideas... Tested a few, broke a few things(school fees), got it right, broke some more things(more school fees), got it right again, then chatted about what we had actually done and what to look out for.... It was quite interesting at the time, we actually set up some old DC motors to drive some make shift alternators at various speeds and had loads of fun while experimenting... It was only much later that I actually got a chance to put the practical stuff to worthwhile use with diesel and petrol gensets.....

Keep it smoking!!

Regds
Ed

PS - just saw this link.... https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi424LZhNTJAhWFWBQKHXQCBBwQtwIILDAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DpdKAM2Xrtjc&usg=AFQjCNE0ky3KEzga15Yn2S4Xf63p82F52g&sig2=W1tkcEoEq4pBwbXcD7vlhA  ... pretty much what I have in mind... Damn, wish I had the internet when I was a youngster.... far less smoke would have been involved....
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 12, 2015, 08:51:18 AM
Hi Guys,

Another not so update...

Picture the scene... Lovely summer's day, no wind, no rain, a perfect day to go and tinker with the beasts.....

And here I am.... sitting in the house, watching a bunch of labourers chopping out window frames.... We are replacing old steel frames with modern aluminium ones... lounge and kitchen.... in the words of Droopy Dog..... "Oh wow.......Hold me back" (said in the most monotone, boring voice imaginable)

Oh well.... gotta be done I suppose...

I just realised the true difference between civil engineers and mech engineers...... mech guys build weapons... civ's build targets.... oops... sorry civs!

I did a little more stripping of TM1 yesterday... still waiting for parts to arrive.. on taking a quick balance check of the crank/big end assy, it looks like it is undebalanced slightly... the CBW's don't quite make up the balance at first look over... they look between 200 to 300g short, will do a full balance check when everything is ready and renewed... if possible, I want to try and get the balance spot on by working out the required mass and installing it at throw radius on the flywheels...(after the wheels are balanced of course) ... once done, I will then attempt to get half the piston and upper rod mass  onto the flywheel at the same radius... this should give me a fairly uniform balance throughout the rev range... Hold thumbs!

The advantage of external balancing for me is that, should I have screwed up my calcs and working out, it can be easily reversed by removing or adding weight at the flywheels, which is easy to do at a later stage... Fortunately, as this beasty seems under balanced at this stage, only one point on the flywheel need attention...

But hey, again I ramble... keep the comments coming in... I enjoy the banter....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 13, 2015, 08:52:49 PM
Hi Guys,

Another somewhat boring update from a wet and rainy S of A!

Finally found some time between cleaning up after builders and the rest of life to knock together a miniature and easily portable as well as easy "fit in a toolboxable" balancing apparatus for the roids wheels with a spindle to suit.. you can view it here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Wheel Balancer (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Wheel Balancer) ... It is quite basic, works quite well, and helped me determine that one wheel was 125g at 5 o clock and the other was 165g at 7 o clock out of balance... that amounts to a whopping 290g on the opposite side of the keyway that things were a bit awry... no wonder the Lister waltz was a common dance around these parts of the world... there were some rev areas between 500 and 850 that were reasonable, but on the whole it was quite bad...  With the balancing jig setup, I have been able to get the static balance to within around 5g....

My next plan is to install CBW's at about crank throw radius, first to make up for the existing CBW's  which are a bit undersize, and a second pair to match piston/rings/gudgeon/Conrod top end half weight to give me a 50% balanced  oscillating mass... if I can fit them at this radius, TM should be about as smooth as it can get across the entire rev range.... Please gents, chip in now and let me know what your opinion is of this method....... if you think I am about to screw up, SHOUT!

I have also done a bit of thinking and scratching around.... particularly regarding the setting up and synchronising of 2 gen heads, and have decided, rather than run 2  synchronous heads at the moment, I will get more benefit from a second, inductive generator as an addition... I have an old induction motor lying around and whilst it is of no use to me as a motor, it could certainly help out as an additional generating source and it will be fun to play with too... I had a quick look at the plate, 1400rpm 7Kw 380v ... I think I might be able to delta it and come out with 220v across 2 of the phases... worth a try I think....

Anyways...

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: billswan on December 14, 2015, 01:00:31 PM
ed

I looked back through some of my old posts and noticed an hour mark of 1775 as the point in time on my old 10/1 Omega brand listeroid that the camshaft broke. As best as I can remember the shaft twisted off. It was probably my fault as I had pushed the injector pressure very high to try to get the WMO to atomize better.

By the way I have long since pushed aside my 16/1 metro in favor of a very expensive WMO fired boiler to heat my shop. I use a little over a 1000 gallons of used oil a year in it. It can get quite cold in Minnesota USA. The old 10/1 had to run round the clock to keep up but the 16/1 could take some time off in a day. The shop is 54X75 feet. So far this year the temps have been better and usage of oil is down.

Billswan

By the way I looked at your balancing jig and am a little at a loss to understand how it works???????????
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 14, 2015, 03:53:37 PM
Hi Bill,

Thanks for the info! I have also played around with the injector pressures a bit, mine were standard at around 2k PSI mark, I pushed them up to 2500PSI and ran them down at 1500PSI - I didn't notice a very big difference in performance on both ends of the scale with WMO in tow... What pressure did you bump yours up to before things broke?

I agree re the single use of WMO  - just as heating, or just as electric, it can be a bit heavy $$ on the machinery for a single task, but my playing is a little different - I am generating heat and power as I mentioned before, as well as removing some nasty black goop from our immediate environment... and probably most of all, I am having a bit of fun doing it!!

The balancing jig is pretty straightforward, insert spindle into hub, place on the 2 roller sets and let the heavy side of the wheel pendulum it down... Add weights etc on opposite side and give it a spin, open a beer, sit and wait for it to come to rest heavy side down again... repeat as often as you can, usually until the women folk start moaning or you fall over(from fatigue, of course) ....or.... until you run out of beer.... (Rather than waste a 2" x 1' bar for a spindle, I bored out two concentric heavy 2" sections and heat fitted them over a nice hard, ground and polished piece of stainless bar about 20mm dia... Seems to work fine...)

Seems to work a treat, the bearings are bolted to the wall of the angle iron and don't interfere. I put nuts either side of the angle, not for security, but to get the bearing center more or less in line with the center of the bottom of the angle, I don't need to fasten the roller stands down when using them... Keep them on the same level and as parallel and in line as you can, and the rolling resistance is quite/very low... The scale in the background was to measure the temp balancing weight made up of magnet, bolt and bunch of washers to use as an adjustment weight... Took some flat bar,  cut it to just above the weight needed, drilled a hole in the flywheel and bolted it in place... with the weight loosely in place on the flywheel, I re-balanced it, removing a tiny bit of the flat bar until I was happy, I overcooked it on one wheel and had to put 2 washers on as a make-up...... Incidentally, HSS drills on these flywheels were useless... Too much silica and slag.... Ended up using a TC masonry bit resharpened...

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: glort on December 16, 2015, 08:58:00 AM

I tried going through the thread again but couldn't find anything so....

Did you try adding any unleaded petrol to you WMO ?

I have found with Veg oil, a 5-10% mix helps greatly with performance.  the theroy I have reached with this is the burning rate of Veg oil is different to that of Diesel.... which my vehicle and all other engines are tuned for.
Because petrol self ignites at much lower compression ratios than Diesel, i believe that the petrol component in the fuel causes the mix to light off earlier than it would on it's own.  The earlier light off brings the ignition timing of the fuel back closer to that of diesel and I believe also makes for a more complete burn.

I was reminded just yesterday of this.  I filled up my tank and driving the vehicle later in the day, I noticed the sluggish performance. I'm running a tank of water and ethanol atm which always gives the thing a kick in the pants but even with the boost juice going, the thing still seemed flat.  It wasn't till I was on my way home that i spotted a service station and remembered I was running on about 99% straight oil and didn't have any petrol or Naptha which I also run on occasion for cleaning purposes in the mix.

I read where you are timing your engine to diesel specs basically.  I would thank there is a good possibility a Petrol blend would help with putting the engine closer to it's ideal " curve" and the addition of some ULP would certainly be a big help in thinning the WMO you mentioned as being very thick. I have read that it also helps the injector spray better but now more than ever I have my doubts.
A couple of weeks ago I did a vid on my channel where I pumped WVO through a pressure washer and made a flame thrower from it.  I tested the fairly weak washer on Water before I did the oil and I could see no determinable difference in the spray pattern and certainly the consumption of oil was little if any different.

This washer is rated at 1600 PSI and being a used unit, I strongly suspect its doing a lot less than that.  If 1600 PSI pretty much neutralizes the viscosity of the oil, I'm pretty sure 20K + PSI an injector pump produces  isn't going to allow a viscous fuel to spray a whole lot differently either.

Over the years and once again the other day, I have come to believe that blending of WVO is a very beneficial thing. I haven't looked into the burning characteristics of WMO but I would not be at all surprised to see it was very similar to WVO. If that is indeed the case, I think you may very well see a good overall improvement in power and the clean burning of the oil in your engine.

It would be very interesting to see you do some tests with it and what you come up with.

Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 16, 2015, 09:25:30 PM
Hey Glort,

I have run RUG with the WMO, on several occasions in fact... Overall, I found that unless you mix up a large batch, more than 200L, it is not worth it... My reasons were as follows:

A small batch of WMO, when dried, can vary dramatically in burning rate from the next, this is because of the hit and miss on what you get blended in with it... At an average injection timing that is slightly advanced from Dino, these random batches work quite well, particularly if you add about 15-20% Dino to help with thinning and initial combustion... to keep the carbon down, water is the miracle tool that solves all ills, from preventing carbon buildup to rings sticking in grooves, to carbon building up on valve stems, to even carbon clogging in the exhaust pipes themselves...

When I tried a few small batches of RUG mix, carbon and associated ills were indeed less, but I was concerned about the "knockiness" while running, usually OK for mid early morning and evening to nightfall, where temps were around the 5 to 12C, but midday heat around 28+ C did make the monster quite a bit "lively" shall we say... And he voiced it quite audibly... It was hit and miss to find a timing position that would work satisfactorily, eventually I gave up on the RUG mix and went to Dino and water... Much more user friendly over a wide range of temperatures, albeit a little difficult to start.... But no problem with a mains powered starter motor.. I just wouldn't try and run it up cold by hand.

If I were located in a more even temperatured and cooler climate, I have no doubt that RUG would work well, just doesn't suit me in my area in summer....

I did find RUG mix much easier to start, a bit cleaner burning, and less smokey when cold....

While I am at basic diesel spec for the timing, I have both advanced and retarded it significantly and found little benefit of going beyond 22 degrees... as soon as you go more than this depending on your fuel makeup, you have to watch for knocking becoming bad.. less than 22 deg and knocking is within limits, and as a bonus, a wide variance in air temps can be handled...

I have now installed a fuel preheater, tapping heat from the cov plug to warm the juice up really hot just pre injector... initial tests seem positive, but a mech failure has got in the way of the final verdict, so the jury is still out on this one... as soon as I get the crank in, I will continue the testing, if it works out as planned, very little dino will be needed for the day's run...  The only problem I for see, will be the fuel filter being a bit "slow" with the thick oil... I might have to run parallel filters to use the 40-50W oils ... Unsure as yet...

One thing I will say about WMO over Dino - Smoother running with apparently more power- I way prefer it, so much so, that even a lady who works on the premises here remarks every now and then when the dino ratio is a bit higher than normal, she can pick it up by ear!

I juiced up my pop tester with WMO and compared the patterns... there is little difference to dino when the fuel is warm, and only minor difference when it is cool.. I didn't compare with refrigerated fuel, as my thinking is that the initial bit of the run is going to be sub normal temp only... once warmed up is my main concern... (and of course, it rarely, if ever, gets below 0C here anyway, I can only remember one winter  in the last 22 when it actually hit freezing point, and that was for less than a 4hr stretch)... As to injector pressures influencing spray pattern to any large degree, they definitely don't from what I saw.... but... they do affect the size of the droplets in the pattern... I cannot say for certain as to the percentage of atomisation that occurs from one pressure to the next, but it does make a mild difference on WMO between 1500 and 2500psi... not enough I don't think to be of concern for combustion, but a bit of concern when the upper pressures were on test for me to worry about the mechanical stresses involved... when I saw the small amount of difference I could perceive between upper and lower pressures, I simply went back to my original factory standard of 2000 psi as the injector was set when it arrived... There might be a much larger difference that is found on Dino, this I have not tested as yet... Methinks the heavier oils are a bit more "forgiving" if I might put it that way...

I did a bit more prepping of the beast this afternoon, I am now just waiting the crank and big end replacement to arrive so I can do a bit of fine balancing and install... At the same time I am going to install a double top ring... The reasons are twofold, one, more of a convoluted path for the residue to follow to get to the second ring, and two, a harder "seat" for the top ring to rest on, this should also slow down the groove wear I am experiencing...

I did notice that the top oil control ring was sticking somewhat, it is a spring assisted ring.. What I am thinking of doing is moving the lowest oil ring up a slot and installing the new bottom ring in place... the bottom oil control ring isnon spring assist and seems to fare a bit better with crappy fuels... interestingly, there is little to no wear on these rings, just a stuck spring was evident...

Ring wear is readily apparent on the top ring, less apparent on the second, even less on the third, hardly apparent on the forth, and almost non-existant on the fifth.... From this I surmise that the abrasive residues are not making it past the third, probably only just making it past the second.... Of blow-by there was very little, compression was reasonable to good, and all of this on over 1500 hrs of sump gunk fuel... I am sure that if the lube standpipe hadn't let go, rubbed against a bearing cage, and spat filings into the journal feed ring, I would still be running quite reasonably...

I did notice something I wasn't happy with while checking things over today... there is no stop in place to prevent the oil pump cam follower rotating... also, the follower was rough as a bears arse and had started to pit the cam... I pulled it, reground the profile, polished it and the cam, and reinstalled... the original listers had a oil priming lever which probably prevented the follower from rotating to any large degree... might be worth looking at in the future...

Another thing I noticed, from first startup in fact, was a "knock cum rattle" every now and then... I think I have found it... the covered end of the camshaft has a retaining bolt.... on my unit, the shaft is about 1/10mm below the level of the bushing... what our Indian friends did was install a spacer washer of about 1mm between the thrust washer and the end of the camshaft to allow things to turn without binding... I have now removed the washer, top-hatted the thrust washer by around 2/10 mm for a more reasonable working clearance, and zapped it all together... hope that damn rattle is now gone!

I also had a poke around the inside of the case today with a screwdriver and a hammer... there was only one piece of slag/sand that was readily found, in the one web corner of the IP side of the case... much hammering later, I dislodged it and removed the offending junk.. Overall, I would at this stage, label these castings as excellent in comparison to what others on this forum have found... maybe I am just lucky!

I can say, the red paint/loctite/cement/gunnite that the insides are coated with is TOUGH! After 1500 hrs, there is no flaking evident, all is intact...

Incidentally, the timing idler gear shows no discernable wear, on bushing or teeth... so that's a plus!

The only parts showing appreciable wear at this stage are the rings/piston grooves and the oil pump cam...(excluding the big end of course, that was an induced fault because someone in India didn't know that to braze piping, you actually need to use a brazing rod....)

Enough rambling.....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed

PS - I just did a quick calc of the imbalance on the flywheels I had... Around 290g total imbalance at a radius of 300mm or so... Running at 750rpm that gives a centrifugal force of 55kg... I wonder if that could be why I had to go to the dentist to replace my fillings every time I stood next to it for more than 5 mins.....?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: glort on December 17, 2015, 01:54:10 AM

Interesting Ed.
I can relate to your summer/ warm day problems.
When I first started with WVO in my old Merc I was blending at 20%ULP.  It worked fine for about a month then we got some hot days and I had a lot of troubles. Starting the thing was fine but I got stuck in a shopping centre when I took the wife there and turned the thing off. The heat of the engine and the day  meant the thing would not start again.  Probably didn't help that I was using ULP with added ethanol which vaporises 20oC cooler than straight petrol. Cold starts were instant, hot starts were so bad as to hope you could fire the engine before the battery died.

I got the thing going again after a while and worked out what it was so quickly learned to back the ULP right off, Down to 5% in summer or just run straight veg. In winter I don't recommend anything over 15% where I am because of the power loss. Mercedes published in their W123 handbook that blending DIESEL with up to 30% Ulp was OK in very frigid climates but I'd hate to  think how much power that took out of the engine.

With knocking, on a diesel it's not all a good thing to eliminate that all together. People revere it when running veg claiming the engine is quieter but that is because the timing is now out and the thing is loosing a worthwhile amount of power. Diesels should have a "Knock", its the principal they work on.  Obviously there is a limit but to eliminate all knock is not the great thing people make it out to be. I very much like to hear mine rattling and clattering at idle with my veg/ ULP/ whatever mix because thats how it sounds when on straight Diesel so It means the fuel blend must be close to what the engine wants.

I thought I blew the crap out of my trucks engine last summer.  I get E 85 which is 85% ethanol and 15% petrol to make the boost juice for my WI.  I simply add 50% water by volume to the fuel and it separates out into petrol and a water/ alcohol mix very nicely.  I drain the ethanol from the bottom of the drum and then use the " Clean" petrol to put in with the veg.  Works out real nice because the washed petrol is now pure and I get that 20oC head start on avoiding vaporisation problems in the fuel system.
 
I think I must have mixed up the drums and put one in I hadn't separated.  I think I used all the water/ alc mix and got down to the petrol or a strong blend thereof.
I had the thing dialed up coming up a good steep hill on the freeway then all the sudden it sounded like all the rods and pistons separated. what a racket. backed off Pulled to the side of the road and the thing was hammering every time I touched the throttle. No smoke, no oil on the ground, nothing I could do or fix so I thought well if it's broken it's broken so I best get the thing off the freeway.  Driving along the thing it rattling and hammering and I'm waiting for the real bang any second.  Got off the highway, pulled over again for another look and thought well I'll see how far it gets. Started it up again and the hammering was gone.

All I can assume was it got a squirt of petrol that may have blown past the rings and the thing was inhaling the fumes from the sump through the PCV. When I pulled over it gave the thing enough time to boil the last of the petrol off and it was fine.  I really thought I had blown the arse out the thing but I did notice much to my surprise that the thing did seem more sprightly and started easier and ran harder afterwards.  Maybe all the hammering knocked some buildup out the rings or something? they say the engines on these things I have are tough, after that I can very much confirm it.

I have found variations in the quality of the veg I get as to performance but not enough to worry about. I'm not measuring to the watt like you could so other factors like the temp of the day probably play just as big if not more of a part.  One thing is for sure, DRYING the oil makes a HUGE difference.  You put some stuff in that is damp and you know it straight away. I left the processor on the other day when it was hot and very low humidity.  I filled the truck on that oil and noticed the difference straight away even though when I went to process it I was thinking this stuff is pretty ordinary and I might  try to put one drum in of this and another drum of the last lot I got which was better..... or so I thought.  Putting the water in the intake works great, having it in the fuel is the exact opposite.  I'm not really sure why but the effect is unmistakable.

I really have my doubts about the fuel heating so will be interested to see what you conclude. The injector is buried in teh head and well in contact with it so IMHO, the temp the injector runs and the spray pettern is going to be far more influenced by that then the temp of a tiny stream of fuel.  If you look at how much fuel runs through an injector in an hour, it's hard to see how it is going to have any difference on teh temp it runs at particularly when it's embedded in 10-20Kg of steel that has a flow of water controlling it's temp.  Last time I put my hand on the injector on my roid when it was running it was plenty warm just like the injector on every vehicle I have had.

To me the assertion of heating the fuel and injector lines is Bunkum but few people go to the trouble and research you do and experiment. I have also not seen anything directly relating to listers so I will be interested in your findings which will hold a lot of credibility to me. If you have one of those laser thermometer things it would be interesting if you could shoot the injector and head temps when you are running the heater and not to see waht sort of difference it makes.
I seem to recall reading of one guy that did something like this with Injector line heaters.  He came away claiming they increased the injector temp ( at the line fitting no internally) 2oF wich I think is less than 1 oC. No one is ever going to convince me that would make a difference of any sort.

One thing the Diesel truck crowd have talked about is running 2 stroke in their fuel. Of course you get the bogan redneck ignorants who immediately claim "they ain't puttin nothin in their trucks aint suppose to go in there" and dismiss it out of hand but there are many reports of people that find it beneficial.
It seems a bit pointless putting oil in an oil HOWEVER, good quality 2 stroke has a lot of additives aimed at reducing or eliminating ash and carbon buildup.  Just what the likes of you and I want.
I have never found what the additives in 2 stroke are but in almost every fuel or oil additive I have come across, a main or significant component is Naphtha. Where I am you can buy that in litre bottles for about $8. Another name for this stuff is white spirit or Lighter fluid.
Much better a litre for 8 bux than twice that for a 100ml bottle of additive that contains maybe 25% naphtha and the rest is diesel or Kero.
I throw a bottle of naphtha in a tank in the truck for cleaning purposes of the fuel lines and IP. I had a problem with some sort of blockage earlier in the year and a concentrate of naphtha, Diesel and Turps seemed to cure that pretty quick.  I'm now adding Turps, naphtha and diesel alternately for the cleaning properties as petrol seems resistant to some things they will break down and clean out.

Anyway, look forward to your next tests and findings.

Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 18, 2015, 12:13:27 PM
Hey Glort,

Still waiting on my crank and big end bits to arrive, the damn couriers are on and off strike and go-slow by the looks of it... Aah well.... Sit back, have a beer, don't stress....

Incidentally, I have found the perfect de-stressing routine.... Set up chair on porch... Fetch 2x Icy lagers... Drink one Icy Lager quickly for temperature reasons... Throw can over porch railing.... open next Icy lager.... Load .22 rifle.... sip icy lager.... Relax and take aim on empty can... Fire.... Sip icy lager... (Repeat as often as is required to relax).... Once done, sweep up casings, pick up Old can and dispose of, throw next can..... begin again!!

Keep it banging...

Regds
Ed

PS - Who remembers the movie "Second Hand Lions" .... I just need the boat in the pond...(and a cellar full of $$ of course...)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: Tom on December 18, 2015, 06:04:38 PM
Wow you can actually get 22lr ammo there? Been hard to find in the stores around here.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 18, 2015, 06:30:18 PM
Hey Tom,

It is getting expensive though... I am cutting into the last 20k stack and am dreading topping off the store... its gonna hurt the wallet for sure...

On another line, something I have been thinking about and finally pulled finger out of orifice and worked out... on an externally balanced 6/1... the flywheel counterweight at 650 rpm of thereabouts exerts about ... well, a hell of a lot more than 120lbs of centrifugal force on the crankshaft... so.....?....... if i installed 2 nicely balanced 120lb plus each flywheels outboard of the existing flywheels, it should be perfectly well within tolerance...

Now... I have a brand new spare roid, just waiting for the wheels to be popped off and balanced..... oh so tempting....!

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: cujet on December 19, 2015, 11:27:01 PM
I can't access any of the pictures or anything at all at Warrior paintball. Warrior paintball simply times out. That's sad, because I'd love to see the pics of the crankshaft.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 20, 2015, 03:50:28 PM
Hi Chris,

Just checked everything this side and I can access the server via my intranet... anybody else having problems getting into the pics?

Could be a DNS problem... have had some iffy access this side updating my dyndns account....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: TxBlacksmith on December 20, 2015, 06:21:56 PM
Cant access the picks here in Texas...  at home or work...  getting time out... ???
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: cujet on December 20, 2015, 07:42:13 PM
Is there any chance you can move a few pics to imgur or some other free host?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 20, 2015, 08:31:02 PM
Hi Chris,

There is always a chance, but I am lazy! ... OK so I admit it ....Lol... Try and get into http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private) and come back to me with an error message if you get one....

Regds
Ed

PS.. it looks like my dyndns updater on my router was choosing the wrong account to use for the DNS resolution... looks like its working now... give it a try Chris, I think I have got it right now... cheers... Ed...
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 21, 2015, 01:41:52 PM
Hey Guys.....

As mentioned before.... The devil finds work for idle hands(and minds)..... Just had a bright(maybe) idea....

Most, or a large part of the problems that are speed/governor related, come down to worn linkages or sloppy linkages as from new... What about this:

Install a soft tension spring on the "closing" direction side of the IP - it will hold all linkages under tension, thus eliminating slop and improving governing, as well as acting as a fail safe of sorts should one of the governor pins fail ... As soon as the link train breaks, the rack closes.... To see if the spring is strong enough, disconnect the lowest link on the governor arm and ensure that the spring is powerful enough to pull the IP closed from full open position....

Hmm.... gonna try mock it up and test!

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: cujet on December 23, 2015, 03:02:56 AM
I finally got into the pics. That crank needs some work. Ugh.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 23, 2015, 08:25:40 AM
Hi Chris,

Work, no, re-purposing, yes....

Could make quite a cute lamp-stand.....

Got the replacement today, a few mins ago in fact..... I think I need to spend some quality time with my engine!!

The new crank arrived sans main bearings but with timing gear and big end bushes, but they did throw in a "sorry sir" pack of rings....  :)

Hopefully I will get a chance to pop it all together over the next day or two, might just try and do the bottom end today and machine up the piston for the additional rings tomorrow or so... Lets see how it pans out....

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 23, 2015, 11:08:35 PM
Hey guys...

What an interesting day it has been... Not in a totally pleasant way either...

I unpacked the crank at around midday, at quick glances, it appeared a tad "rough" ... nothing like the finish on the original, not that that was very good to start with....

After about 2 hours of filing and de-nubbing, this is what it looks like, http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Replacement Crank 20151223 (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Replacement Crank 20151223) .... Not great, but usable.... I wish I had a larger lathe to smooth down those terrible cuts that were made... overall, everything was in basic spec, but the finish was atrocious... The big end journal was coarsely ground, way too rough for my liking, but slightly over size thank goodness... after a few hours with 1000 grit water paper and a buffing/polishing wheel, it is now almost ready for installation... A point to note is that whilst assembling and testing clearances, I kept on picking up swarf in the bearing shells, no matter how clean I made them. I eventually tracked the problem's cause... the lube hole was badly cut, with swarf chip welded to the inside of the passages... I reamed the exit hole with a sharp 7mm drill and then discovered that the entrance hole, while starting at 10mm, narrowed down to a 5mm pilot hole after about 15mm... this would have effectively negated the ring feeders action as the oil would have to flow "uphill" against centrifugal force, to exit into the big end bushing.... this might be something to check on if you have a similar oil feed system...

I have 2 x .1mm shims on one side of the conrod bearing half, and one .1mm shim on the other... with one shim in each side, when torqued to spec, the bearing locks solid in all positions... my thinking is that putting in one shim extra on one side, gives me half of .1 clearance overall, ie, .05 mm final bearing clearance... this equates to less than 3 thou, so it should be OK... What concerns me a tad, is that there is a TINY bit of ovality in both the journal and big end... at 2 points of rotation, there is a slight bind, easy to overcome with mild hand force, but a  bind nevertheless... I will take alook at it tomorrow if I have the inclination, but it its so slight that I might just leave it and run it as is.... your thoughts gentlemen?

I also noted that the removal of the old main bearings was, shall I say, somewhat tedious.... I estimate about a .10 -.15mm interference fit, judging by the effort to get them off... I definitely am going to check and mic the seat areas before I refit them to the new crank....(yes, I did keep the inner/outer bearings as matched pairs and have marked them as such to keep them so) .... That amount of interference is totally over the top for this or any application like this.....

Next step is to install the crank and set up the end float, once the mains are in place, I will be looking at around 3 thou cold float, it should be adequate and not too excessive... Previous float was....duh... none.... after 1600 hrs of runtime, it was still tight to turn, almost too tight to turn by hand without conrod  or flywheels on... So much so, that when I stripped the trumpets off, I checked them for cracks.... I see some creative scissor work in my immediate future, making additional spacers from paper....

I eventually got the sh!ts with trying to find Torque and Clearance settings in the piles of notes I have dotted around the workshops... I put together this "cheat sheet" for my own reference, help yourself if you want a copy, it is a "concentration" of all my scraps of notes that I have on this engine and a couple of others, use at your own risk etc etc etc.... If you spot something that I have cocked up or left out, don't hesitate to shout... you can find it here http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Cheat Sheet (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Cheat Sheet)

Anyways, again I ramble on, I hope u guys are getting some entertaining reading if nothing else from my mutterings and ramblings...

Keep it spinning..

Regds
Ed

PS... I also took some weight measurements of the crank, remember, this is a 12hp idi cbw engine, so if yours ain't the same, well, nuff  said...

Crank with cbw and conrod installed - rotary mass, 700g, under balanced
Oscillating masses:
Gudgeon pin and circlips - 500g
Piston, aluminium, - 1645g
Rings - 210g
Small end mass - 1000g
Top ring(additional to be installed) - 25g

So my guess at counterweights to be added would be:700+(500+1645+210+1000+25)/2= 700+3380/2=2390g at crank throw radius to give 50% balance throughout the rev range... cmon Chris, does it look about right to you from a calculation POV?(also, my flywheels have no built in balance weights...)

PPS - Cheat sheet has been updated - Copy available here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Cheat Sheet (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Cheat Sheet)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 24, 2015, 04:20:57 PM
Hey Guys,

Another brief update, or rather should I say "rambling" from my side...

The bottom end of the beast is basically together, I mic'd and compared the two crank bearing seating widths before I assembled and installed bearings on the new crank... The new crank was about .1 narrower than the old....

So there I go, install and torque to 1/4 setting the bearing carriers... lo and behold, no free play whatsoever...

Remove carrier, install 4xpaper spacers, Retorque to 1/4... Yippeeeee.... End float is here!! Now sitting with .3mm end float.... All is good, time to do some final settings... (A hint: Cut varying thickness spacers out of different coloured paper... In this case it was 2xYellow of .2mm each, 1xGreen of .18mm, 1xWhite of .08mm, this saves measuring and time when you remove them... Obviously make a brief note of the thickness per colour!!)

Torqued to final setting, 60 Ft.Lbs, there was little to no change in the end float.... Good! (Indicates no sand or dirt in the packing)

Removed the non-ip side housing, as the IP side was spaced perfectly for the cam gears, and removed the Green(.18) and the white(.08) spacers, leaving the end float after final torque at around .03mm to 04mm depending on how hard you tug and push on the crankshaft.... (Another hint: Do the end float setting with the bearings dry and unlubricated - do not hammer or bump on the crankshaft at all without any form of lubrication .... It makes the measurement much easier... As soon as you are done and torqued up, give them a good flush with SAE30 and spin the crank SLOWLY to get it into the bearings proper... Immediately, you will feel the end float diminish by what seems to be a substantial amount as the oil cushions the surfaces...)

After that, valve timing is a piece o' pee...  get the cam to hold the followers "on the rock" ... set crank to TDC... Slip in the timing gear and spindle... dead easy...(Hint: Look at the cam followers from the inside, it is dead easy to judge level by eye as one is ascending and the other is decending - as they level out, this is the equal that you are looking for... Set the crank to TDC just by looking into the top of the cylinder bore and getting it centered - If you are one tooth out in either direction it shows up very clearly and is easy to spot....)

I noticed that our Indian friends have some interesting ideas where it comes to final position of the cam gear on the crankshaft - there is about 1/4 to 1/8th of a tooth difference between the original and the new crank... on these engines though, this fortunately does not make a big difference, if any difference at all to the running and performance that I have noted so far... Obviously, for these babies, Injector timing is very important and the different gear position on the crank will alter this by a few degrees, so that will have to be set up anyway!

Next step... Rings, grooves, pistons, cylinders and ridge cutting.... It feels like Christmas... This is so much fun!!

Oh wait, it is Christmas.... Happy Christmas Everybody!!

Keep the bells chiming... (...to a steady Lister beat..... dress it up with decks of holly... Tra la la, la la, la, la!)

Lacking a suitable position and mounting point on the top of my green Lister, cast iron, Xmas tree, I have installed a fairy on the topmost portion of the genset... It involved the insertion of a radiator cap in a most impolite area... Poor fairy....  ::)

But seriously though guys... I really hope you all have a wonderful Xmas and a restful, peaceful and joyous time!

Happy Christmas,
Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: veggie on December 26, 2015, 04:33:28 PM

EdDee

It's been very interesting following your "experiments". Thanks for posting.
Looking forward to the future updates.
Happy Christmas !

veggie
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 26, 2015, 08:28:56 PM
Hey Veggie,

Hope u had as good a one as I did!

Mission accomplished! Two rings fitted to a widened top groove, two unsprung oil rings fitter in the oil grooves, ridge has been scraped, cylinder honed, cylinder with piston and rod lowered onto the bottom end, big end torqued and fitted.... I am knackered! ....

I did make an additional little change though... I have now fitted what can best be described as "The Big Dipper" ... it is a variation on the hollow dipper you find n some engines, a bit of poetic licence has been involved... I enlarged the thread in the conrod end cap and freehand turned a larger ball ended splasher... this was then cored out to 4.5 mm down its length and an intersecting funnel was mad at 90 degrees on the end by using a center drill... this will pick up oil pretty much like a standard hollow dipper, but hopefully quite a bit more... pics are to view here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Big Dipper/ (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Big Dipper/)

The threaded end has been smooth turned to fit the locating hole on the big end bearing, just to keep things neat and in line!

Well, that's about all I have to log for today, tomorrow is bump clearance and cylinder head day, I might even get a chance to make some counterweights for the 50-50 balancing of the wobbly and bouncy bits.....

Keep it boxing(day)...

Regds,
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: veggie on December 26, 2015, 09:07:26 PM

Mission accomplished! Two rings fitted to a widened top groove, two unsprung oil rings fitter in the oil grooves, ridge has been scraped, cylinder honed, cylinder with piston and rod lowered onto the bottom end, big end torqued and fitted.... I am knackered! ....


So....you put 2 compression rings into the upper ring groove ?
Interesting.
So the piston now has 5 rings instead of 4?
Any concern about the top ring getting adequate lubrication ?

veggie


Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 26, 2015, 11:18:03 PM
Hi Veggie,

Yep, what I did was to widen the top groove - it was worn anyway... I opened it out to double the thickness of the top ring and installed a new ring above the old ring... the gaps are staggered 180 degrees... the old ring was worn, but not unusable, just the gap was a tad large... there was little blow by when I stripped it hence the reuse of the top ring... Running straight dino might make the lubrication a bit scarce, but, as you know, I am running a high level of WMO so I am hoping that this added lubricity will make up for it.. Two top rings about 2.5 thick, 2 wide compression rings, of about 3 and a bit thick in the next 2 grooves, then 2 unsprung oil rings in the next two grooves to give a total of 6 rings instead of what my motor had, 5.... Going this route, I can give the piston another lease on life by, if needed in the future, removing the top 2 singular set and replacing them with a single wide compression ring should the groove wear badly again(There are wide compression rings I can get locally that are more than double the thickness of the top thin compression ring)....

I am hoping that the double top ring will hold back the nasties a bit better and slow down the groove wear a bit... time will tell.... ( if it works of course)...

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: quinnbrian on December 27, 2015, 01:55:22 AM
Nice post, great work!!. The water injection helps a lot! Help with the removal of carbon build up and increase cylinder pressure (steam pressure) Have you tried a little acetone in your WMO? I've been looking at waste plastic to oil converting ...also looks very interested. Any thoughts?
Cheers
Brian
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 27, 2015, 08:47:07 PM
Hey Brian,

I have considered cracking plastics back to components, but that's a little too much hassle for me at this stage, also, there is not much in the line of 'clean' waste plastic available to me, the local recyclers have that side pretty much tied up.... the water defs does work a treat, I was reminded of that again today while I was messing around with TM1 and doing some more mods and stuff... the exhaust port is basically clean, only light soot is present, this is effectively untouched, as are both inlet and exhaust valve... no need to grind or decarbon ports,they look like they have only had a brief 'factory' run.... and that's 1600+ hrs actually...

I didn't get too much done on TM today, the temp was hovering around 30+ C and as soon as I tried to do anything, my personal thermostat started to object.... all I accomplished was setting the squish to slightly above factory minimum of 1.75mm, ending up at 1.78mm... I reckon its close enough... NS squish difference is around .01 mm, so I am pretty happy with that too... the other thing I did was to rebush, accurately, the governor bell crank, and then get it lined up properly with the IP too... pics can be seen here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Governor Bellcrank (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Governor Bellcrank) .. if you look carefully, you can see that the sides of the bell crank have been accurised and the brass liner I pressed in is only just visible in the oil hole...

While I was at it, I put in a long overdue brass tappet spacer to line up the inlet rocker to the valve stem properly, and cut down the exhaust pushrod a few mm so the adjusters look a bit more even, not as lopsided as they were... purely cosmetic...

Aah... also finished the governor spring assy  off properly, also cosmetic...just needs to be painted up, Pics here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Governor Mods (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Governor Mods)

Then, for shits and giggles, I made up another dipstick housing, the original I made up has been put on TM2, I didn't feel like draining oil just to change it back... Pic available here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Dipstick Mods (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Dipstick Mods)

Come to think of it, maybe it wasnt such a quiet day after all! No wonder I feel buggered.....

Again I start getting verbal diarrhea.... Time to climb back in my box and shut up....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 28, 2015, 05:21:45 PM
Hey Guys,

Another short, or maybe not so short post on what's happening with TM1 while he is on the slab....

The fuel changeover valves have been neatened up and incorporated with a fixed, shake proof, timing pointer.... Changeover valves: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Fuel Changeover Assy/ (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Fuel Changeover Assy/)
Timing Indicator: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Timing Pointer (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Timing Pointer) (It is marginally adjustable, so it can be zeroed to the timing marks I put on the flywheel previously...)

The dipstick is completed, now I just need to mark the high and low tide marks... http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Dipstick Mods/ (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Dipstick Mods/)

The external CBW's are made and fitted, the engine was a total of 2400g under balanced at crank throw radius, for 50% balancing, the weights are just a tad on the high side of 600g each, 4x, fitted to BDC throw... at a radius of 70mm, or as close as I could get to it without major surgery... They are made up of stainless bar, 50mm dia, 42mm long, held in place with a 8mm cap head screw 50mm long... Should they be over or under weight, they can easily be removed for adjustment... Currently, they are a total of 70g overweight, but I don't think that this will make an enormous difference... The square weights bolted close to the rim are to get the flywheels in balance... FWIW.... http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/External CBW/ (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/External CBW/) ... If things work out as planned, TM should be as smooth as it can be throughout the rev range now...(or as bouncy.....Oops....)

Here if a pic of the tappet shim that I installed yesterday... 2.4mm thick to bring things a bit closer to center on the inlet side...http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Tappet Shim/ (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Tappet Shim/)

If all goes according to plan, tomorrow I will be able to do a final crank and fuel system flushout, mount the oil pickup and strainer, set the injection timing and get the beast ready to mount ... Hold thumbs...

I am very interested to see the result of the balance work I have done, anybody have any forecasts as to what the outcome will be?

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed

PS... any comments would be greatly appreciated...
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: Tom on December 28, 2015, 08:00:43 PM
Hey EdDee, If you post your images this way the pics will show and not require people to click a couple of links to see them. You click the image tag and put the full link to the file between the tags.

Tom

(http://www.digipoint.dyndns.org:81/private/Fuel%20Changeover%20Assy/IMAG0626.jpg)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 28, 2015, 08:26:39 PM
Hey Tom,

Noted!

There is a reason for me posting a source link though... There are a couple of gents that are following this page that have a less than average link to the internet, and some that are using cellular comms with associated high costs for large picture transfers... I post the links to give the reader a choice as to whether they want to download the pics to keep costs down and speeds up.... Hence not "inlining" the images....

A further reason for posting server links is that as I take more pics and add them to the server folders, the links can remain the same but the content will change and append...

I realise that I can rescale the pics and make them smaller in physical size and data size, but I must admit, I am a bit lazy... I am snapping a few pics on my cel while I am working on the beast and as soon as I take a break, I upload them to the server without retouching them... that allows for a lot less PC/tablet button pressing for me....

If I am treading on toes by doing it this way, please slap me around the ear repeatedly until I take note and change my ways!

Keep on clicking...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 29, 2015, 06:47:58 PM
Hey guys,

Another progress update...

Crankcase has had a final washout, as clean as I can get it.... The only reason that I can find at the moment to strip the coating off the inside of the case and sump is to make mopping out a bit easier and quicker.... The coating is rough, probably a 50% gravel and 50% paint... Lol...

The oil lines have been cleaned, flushed and reinstalled, no hiccups! ... A small mod I did on the RHS feed pipe(if viewed from the large door side of the engine) was to twist the standpipe considerably... it is now sitting at about 45 degrees, aimed towards the rhs trb cage and towards the door and oil thrower ring , hitting it relatively central in its path... a worthwhile change from the original, unfortunately I didn't have a clean hand by this stage to grab the cel and take a few snaps....

The dipstick now has 3 "tide" marks, absolute max, with the oil just touching the threads of the big end bolts, low tide is when the oil is at  lowest weir level, and a second very low mark - this is when the oil level is just above the top of the oil strainer... Bear in mind, the oil strainer I am using is about 2" diameter, about an inch above the apron floor... Way oversized compared to the original.. this oil strainer is also somewhat finer than the original, around .2 to .3 mm mesh opening size... Originally it was a pickup strainer from a hydraulic tank....

The timing has now been set at a nominal 20 degrees btdc and all seems well too...(Besides a few minor leaks in the fuel pipe to be sorted)

Hopefully, if the weather holds out, I will mount the beast back in its chassis tomorrow and spin it up!

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: mike90045 on December 30, 2015, 05:50:56 AM
Here if a pic of the tappet shim that I installed yesterday... 2.4mm thick to bring things a bit closer to center on the inlet side...

I think I would call that a Rocker Arm ?  Don't the tappets ride on a cam, and lift the pushrods ?
I think I have to do that mod to my rockers, they have the same misalignment you corrected with that shim/ washer.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 30, 2015, 06:26:59 AM
Hey Mike...

Another name from another part of the world.... ie 'Tappet Cover' ... The bit that rides on the cam is the 'follower', unless its an ohc and called a 'bucket tappet' ...

Yours is probs a better term, tappet refers more to the bit at the end of the rocker arm that presses on the valve.... my bad!

As to whether its worth doing the mod, it probably is, but there have been no major wear on the guides as yet, 1600 hrs... I just did it because it was so simple and quick to do.... Probs a bit overboard to make out of brass, a steel 16 mm washer would work just as well I reckon....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 30, 2015, 07:50:32 PM
Hi guys,

A bucket of sweat later, 30 degree in the shade, working(or playing) in the direct sun..... and TM1 is back in its chassis and spinning on...

Let's see...... it sounds simple, 8 bolts, connect a few rubber hoses, fill it with water... a good few hours later it still sounds simple, just tiring...

What have I found out today? .....? .....?

50% balance is not suitable for my setup.... at 50%, the lateral movement is too much, for my liking anyway... the 'sled on wheels' developed about a 1/8 to 1/4" to and fro movement which will mess with my pipe couplings to the heat store under the building a bit too much I reckon.... I dropped it to 300g under balanced, by removing the extenal cb weights completely and the rocking disappeared completely, but TM became a little bouncy... Nowhere near what I had before I balanced the flywheels, but still a little too much for my liking..., I then installed 1200g of cbw's and things quietened down dramatically... This is how he is running now...

This machine was a jumper, thumper, I'll tempered beast that would break 8mm black chains at a whim... just because he could! Bear in mind, the entire engine, gen head, radiator, exhaust with aftercooler and cooling system, weighs in at a guestimate of around 1300 or more kg...  Now to have a 3000lb angry whirling dervish on your hands can be quite entertaining.... Especially if it breaks its restraints(4 x 8mm chains) and decide it wants to leave your premises... But, since the balance job on the flywheels, even without the cbw's, he is meek and mild mannered.... I would go so far as to say 'tame' even.... The balance job has definitely been the best thing I could have done! Now, to put it all in perspective, working from memory here, the balance tags were around 120g.... that is the best used 120g of steel on the entire setup!

With the 1200g of CBS's installed, he is only 500g balanced against oscillating mass... the crank and big end rotary masses worked out at 700 g under balanced, so only the remaining 500 g of the cbw's are going towards oscillation mass balancing, and it works a treat! At a rough guess this puts his balance % at around 20% or so.... Rpm is still at 750....

With TM now running smoother, I shortened the radiator stand by just under 300mm and cut the piping accordingly, thermo syphoning is still working well... My plan is to install the last compononent(until I think of some other dangly bit) tomorrow... It is a heat exchanger on the radiator inlet... Currently, as timed today, TM heats up the heat store of around 300l water to a usable level for baths and showers in around 2.5 hours... As I am looking at getting as much usable energy out of the fuel that I can, hopefully the heatex will speed things up just a wee bit more.... Time will tell!

The crankcase on TM is warming up faster and hotter than previously, I am running a much more vigorous splash system than before... I suspect that the oil is getting into way more hot zones than previous..... hopefully its not a friction issue that I have overlooked....

Here are some pics of TM on the gibbet and in place while I still had energy to press the shutter button...http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Reinstall 20151230 (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Reinstall 20151230)

And just for the record, here are pics of the inlet and exhaust ports after1600+ hrs of running... they are as is, no decarboning or brushing has been done on them whatsoever, all thanks to the basic WI system I am using..http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Head Ports 1600hrs (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Head Ports 1600hrs)

Let's see what breaks tomorrow.... if you expect the worst, every day without a failure becomes a good day!!

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: mike90045 on December 31, 2015, 01:08:09 AM
......... hopefully its not a friction issue that I have overlooked..........

If it was friction, you likely would not be able to crank by hand, getting enough friction to heat things, So my bet is on the oil picking up heat from the cyl walls.
With the decompression off, how does it coast ?

Also, with your large oil dipper, hope it's threads stand up to the impact of hitting the oil.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on December 31, 2015, 07:41:41 AM
Hi Mike,

He coasts fine, no knocks or grinds when under compression or with the cr engaged... He is slightly harder to turn over than before, I put it down to tight rings, plus the extra one... spooling down takes about the same time as before, no major differences per se..

As to the oil dipper, I went up a size or two on the shank and retapped the big end cap to suit after enlarging it... can't remember now, but it was around 5/16 or 3/8 NF ... drill size was around 9.5 mm or thereabouts.... it should be strong enough....

At this stage the jury is still out about the extra, double stacked ring... the additional friction from the ring wil definitely take away a bit of power at the crank, as to how much, I am unsure as yet, but there is a difference at the moment.... Too early to tell, need the rings to bed in first to see what the final power out will be....

I ran it a good few hours yesterday, probs around 5 to 6 or so, will check the hour meter and log it later..... What do u reckon is a reasonable run in time?

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: 38ac on December 31, 2015, 12:00:48 PM
Correcting the top ring groove is a very important yet often overlooked repair when reusing a piston.  With economical price and easily sourced Indian pistons that is the route of choice but when a piston is not available widening and shimming is indeed a good fix. Some suggestions for next time. I would not double the original ring width if worn that bad  and piston is available but that is just me. If an unavailable piston was worn so bad as to need that kind of machine work I would use a ring that was  undersized or make a ring that hugged the piston instead of running the extra on the cylinder wall.  For lessor wear conditions we often machine the groove and use the scraper rings from three piece oil rings for shims or they are available from stock from Hastings ( the shim always goes on top by the way ;)) In severe cases we have stacked top rings but of narrower cross section than OEM thus not doubling the groove width.

Run in time varies a lot, depending on the condition of the resused parts, the quality of rings and type, cylinder surface prep, engine loading,oil type and likely others that didnt come to mind. Everything being in good order run in time is very brief. Personally I have never run into an engine that took more than a few hours to run in and ended up EVER being exactly right. Good enough maybe,but not right. Others have experainced different.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: 38ac on December 31, 2015, 12:02:15 PM
goof up, sorry
Title: Re: The Listeroid Journey - Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO and the consequences..
Post by: EdDee on January 01, 2016, 12:52:45 AM
Hi 38ac (and the rest of the clan too!)

I did indeed think and consider just top shimming the top piston ring, but I am trying something a little different... This baby burns WMO almost exclusively, one major wear aspect related to this is the top ring and groove... I am using the old top that was quite widely gapped as a sacrificial cleaner ring, with the new top ring inserted just below it in the same widened groove as the actual compression ring... just an experiment to see how it affects the wear et al.... the gaps are 180 apart to keep the abrasives above if possible....

There is also the possibility of cutting a new groove on these pistons about 1/4" above the existing top ring groove, I think there is enough meat there to do it...

A bit of what I got up to today:

Went to the workshop  around 9am... and didn't quite get there.... ended up fighting bush fires till after lunch...35C in the shade, and there I was chasing 300m of flame front to keep it away from the house and the paintball range... was definitely arson, but in my part of the world the local populace feel nothing for setting grass fires whenever they feel like it, and nothing if anything at all, happens to them if they are reported for doing it.... Even phoned the fire brigade, after 5 hours we managed to get it out, still no fire brigade.... wonderful place this...

Then, after a nice cold shower under the hose pipe I got a chance to install the heat exchanger I made up a few months back... and got a chance to plumb it into the hot water system.... pics here(please excuse the unpainted and partially primed finish, I was kinda busy today) http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Coolant Heatex 20151231 (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Coolant Heatex 20151231)

It seems to work quite well, input vs output temp is about 3 to 4 degrees up, maybe a little less, this might not seem much, but it is at 2 bar full flow from a .37 kw electrical pump, so the water is whipping through there quite fast to say the least...  the temp of the coolant is also buffered somewhat too....

It looks like I am going to have to pop the head off and do a quick valve job... the exhaust valve isn't sealing properly for some reason, no major pains, its 700 hrs overdue for a head service anyway....

Enough rambling, yet again....

And, of course, the mandatory and heartiest "Happy New Year"...... to all ye learned fellows out there!

Keep the goodwill flowing...

Regds
Ed

PS...It will be interesting to see how quickly the heat reservoir warms up now...
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO
Post by: EdDee on January 01, 2016, 06:55:22 PM
Hi Guys,

Another update to the TM scene....

Popped the lid off the beast today, was expecting the worst regarding the valves and wasn't disappointed...Lol...

Here are some pics of the valve seats before and after... This should have been an easter job, it was a resurrection, not a repair...

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Valves and Seats 1700hrs 20160101 (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Valves and Seats 1700hrs 20160101)

The inlet valve was fine, no pitting, no major leak spots evident, no corrosion, justnot quite seating 100%, a quick lap with fine valve grinding paste and a nice even contact surface presented itself... The contact area is a tad wide for my liking,around the 3mm mark, I would have preferred a little under 2mm but I wasn't prepared to recut the valve face at this stage...

The exhaust valve and seat on the other hand, was, euphemistically speaking, 'a little worse for wear' .... I am surprised that TM was putting out power, let alone running!

The seat had pitting in excess of .5mm deep, the valve face was pitted likewise...

I refaced the valve at 55/45/35 angles, the 45 being the mating surface.... the valve face is so soft, I simply cut it in the lathe with a HSS tool bit, and not a very sharp one at that.... It appears from the line up of the head face of the valve(around .5mm runout) that our Indian friends had a bent valve and ground it straight... this excessive face grinding has gone right through the case hardening of the valve, or, if it was an induction hardened head, the machining/face grinding has been done sans coolant and caused the sealing face of the valve to soften dramatically.... not a good thing indeed... on my next trip to the specialists, I see a cut and reseat with a decent quality valve coming up....

I expected seat and face damage from the fuel being run, particularly on the exhaust side of things, but not to this degree...(More on this later)

I have managed to do a 'farm style' resurrection, here is how you can do it if you are in a bind:

True up the face of the valve using a lathe or whatever means you have at your disposal... When really stuck, in an emergency, I have used a large drill mounted in a vice or clamp to turn the valve by its stem. Support the top end of the valve stem between two wooden bearing blocks to get it to run as true as possible... while the valve is turning, CAREFULLY use a dremel tool or small grinder to recut the face... Not an ideal way to do the job,but it can be done... In this instance, the soft head was an easy thing to recut in the lathe...

Once you have trued up the valve head as best you can, insert it into the cylinder head and use it, with lots of grinding paste, to recut the seat to match....

After you have a reasonably clean face in the head to work with, you need to recut the valve face again... Try to take as little off the cylinder head as is possible, less is more!

Recut the valve with a slightly steeper angle, 2 or 3 degrees is fine, and relap the valve with fine paste in the head until you have around 2mm of contact width all the way round.... Again, less is more! Too wide a seat, and the chances of carbon deposits fouling the faces increase, too narrow, and the valve can overheat as there is insufficient contact area to draw away the heat to the cylinder head... Be careful of too much paste, you don't want any getting between the stem and the valve guide....

Once all  is lapped in, a good wash with parrafin and you are ready to go!

Now, regarding the erosion that is evident, here is what I surmise.....

The inlet valve and seat is in good clean condition, this leads me to believe that the air entering the inlet is clean and of reasonable quality. The water entering along with the air, is having little impact if any either, as there is no corrosion evident, so whatever is occurring is post ignition, or compression...

The exhaust valve is showing effectively all of the beating, so my logic tells me that this is either temperature, combustion by product or steam erosion. I think we can discount stem and temperature by and large, there is not enough of either present I don't think to do this level of damage... This leaves combustion by products... (it cannot be fuel in its liquid or atomised state that is causing it, as there is little to no wear evident on the IP or injector...)

The cylinder upper sections support this theory by and large, but the variables are slightly different, the common factor being combustion residue.

I am guessing, by the wear evident, that the erosion on the exhaust valve face and seat is due to a 'sandblasting' type effect by the residue travelling at high speed as it exits through the valve opening... there is little difference in wear around the entire seat and valve face either, it is fairly even in damage. Deeper into the port, on the botton of the valve guide, there is little to no damage either from a 'blasting' effect, the guide bottom is still nice and square, little bevelling evident either.

This again, leads me to surmise that the particles doing the wear, have to be extremely small, and travelling at an extremely high speed, such as when the pressure is at maximum for a valve open event... ie as the valve open event occurs... as soon as these particles slow down, they lose sufficient of their kinetic energy to do damage, hence the lack of damage on the face of the valve stem guide.., the gas has already started to slow at this point, and is no longer 'jetting' through a narrow opening.... If somebody has a better idea or explanation, feel free to express it, any theories are interesting to me! (Of course, it could also just be a crappy exhaust valve that is so soft it is being impregnated by clamped particles and wearing the faces out...)

If I think of any other bits and bobs I noticed, I will edit this post and update it....

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO
Post by: carlb23 on January 01, 2016, 08:24:08 PM
I am surprised that you didn't go trough the head when you had it apart since you had to wait for the new crank anyway.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO
Post by: EdDee on January 01, 2016, 10:48:14 PM
Hi Carl,

I am running tests, and trials, mostly for fun, but also for the general how long will it last inquisitiveness on my part.. To have done the head whilst the crank was en route would have skewed my timeline somewhat...I am trying to set up a typical(for me anyway) timeline for how long to go before part/item x needs major attention,,,, Granted, the workmanship quality on these units leaves a lot to be desired, with the result that I am reworking a lot of bits along the way, but they are fun to work on because they are relatively simple machines.... had this been a 6cyl Deutz engine, my approach would be somewhat different... But where you can start taking a cyl head off, have a few coffee breaks, recut valves and lap them in, and then still have the engine back together in well under 2 hours, it seems to me that for my purposes, it is the easiest way to go... not really easiest, I suppose, but hey, I am having fun!

Had this unit been a critical part of my daily existence, I can assure you, this unit would probably not even be on my site, there are far more reliable and cheaper out of the box, ready to run solutions than this....But, then again, you either love slow speed lister style singles or you hate them... I just really enjoy working on them from a hobby point of view!

If I was doing this as a commercial venture, as I did many years ago, I would also not think twice of checking and reworking all parts en route to the reported problem as well as all known wear points whilst servicing, and doing these tasks whilst waiting for spares to arrive... but, since this is a toy for me, I am doing running repairs whilst I dabble with sometimes unrelated bits and 'upgrades' ...

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-Modifying a Listeroid to Burn WMO
Post by: EdDee on January 04, 2016, 04:50:01 PM
Hi Guys,

Not much more to be done on TM1 anymore, the coolant heatex is on and running, the vibration and balance issues have been dealt with, the injector preheater is working quite well too... so much so that I have actually got the last few paint touchups done... http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Paint Touchup 20160104/ (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Paint Touchup 20160104/)

The last thing I will be adding to this one will be an oil filter with 100kpa built in bypass on the return line to the trb's... there is not much more that I wish to add at this stage, maybe an auto shutoff or out of spec warning alarm later, but not on the immediate plans by any means...

Once the oil filter is up and running, the only thing that has an immediate need, unless somebody else can come up with a better suggestion, will be the prettyfying of the wall and shelf above TM......

But, here I go again... drifting off at a tangent... I have been thinking of an easily adjustable advance/retard mechanism for the IP... Its such a pain to set and get to as it stands... with wmo/dino mixing, I would like to fine trim it on the run if I could... Anybody out there ever tried it yet?

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 05, 2016, 02:13:06 PM
Hi Guys,

FWIW - Here are the scans of the manuals I got with the 2 "Opex" Branded Listeroids... They are different manuals, one seems more into the "running" side of things whilst the other has some nice exploded views of the different assemblies with parts descriptions as well... Could be handy for "newbies" as well as the more experienced...  Too much info is never a bad thing!!

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Opex Manuals - Scanned PDF (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Opex Manuals - Scanned PDF)

Hope this helps someone, somewhere, in a land far away....

That reminds me..... Once, long, long ago, in a land far away.... There was a woman who didn't complain... But it was only once, and very long ago!!

Keep it smiling!!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 06, 2016, 08:56:34 PM
Hi Guys,

Tis a strange world we live in.... Interesting times et al...

My words have hardly circled the globe.... and...(see the post from 2 days ago, regarding IP fine tuning...)

TM1 decided that it didn't like the timing it was set at.... So it adjusted itself... Lol... all the way retarded, until it quietly coasted to a stop... The timing lock nut somehow came undone and the timing bolt wandered its way inwards, no harm done, just a bit off-pissing as the braai (SA version of barbecue, just more meat and more beer compared to the rest of the world...) was 99% done and the ales were starting to warm... I flounced around for a lead light and set it by ear and good luck to a reasonable semblance of 20 degrees and then dashed off to devour the vittles...

Tomorrow's another day, timing can wait... I have finished making the spin on filter mounting, when I fit it tomorrow, I will set the timing to what it should be... But, here's a question, 20 degrees at max governor opening, or 20 degrees at max rack travel? Up to now, I have been setting at max rack opening, this is taking up the slack in the linkages by pushing the rack to the left... What I am going to try tomorrow, is setting it at 20 degrees when the governor pulls the rack to max of its travel... this might just make a bit of a difference,considering that on this beast, when the governor pulls the rack as far as it can, there is still a good few mm of rack travel the the governor cannot reach into...

Let's see how it works out... Any forecasts anybody?

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 07, 2016, 12:16:12 PM
Hi Girls...... (let's see if anybody responds to the jibe  :) )

Its pee-ing with rain today, so nothing much is gonna happen if I can help it!(A welcome respite from 30C weather!!)

So..... The devil did make for some entertainment for idle hands!

Last night, when the timing did its thing, I was .... well let's just say "rushed" to get TM1 up and going again.... A close approximation is really just not good enough in my books, particularly where it comes to timing on this beast... So, how could I make my life easier or quicker or more accurate where it comes to setting the timing...?

A bit of head scratching occurred and I came up with a quick and easy...

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Timing Tube 20160107 (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Timing Tube 20160107)

The Black plastic tube and clear tube are from a Bic ballpoint pen.... the rest is out of the scrap tray with a bit of lathery to make it all hang together.... Incidentally, the thread on the top of the IP non return valve is close enough to 14mm x 1.5mm pitch if you are looking to tap out an old collar like I did....

My Idea is as follows... With this small diameter tube, a small amount of fuel will travel a considerable distance up the tube, making timing just that little bit (or maybe a lottle bit) more accurate than trying to watch for meniscus change on the top of the IP non return valve fitting with the injector pipe disconnected....

Now, my second part of my idea is as follows.....

1) Back off the timing bolt by a good few flats on the spanner, maybe 2 or 3...
2)Advance the engine through at least 1 full rev to 20 degrees BTDC...(don't move it backward or forward after this...)
3)If the timing tube is in place, wipe the mark on the ceiling where it squirted....Empty the clear pipe on the timing tube so that there is no fuel visible...
4)start advancing the timing by adjusting the bolt, slowly...
5)as soon as fuel appears in the timing tube, lock the bolt down with the lock nut....

Will it work to do this.... stuffed if I know.... but if it does work, it should be about the most accurate way of doing it....(Assuming your TDC mark is spot on and you don't have a majorly worn pump element)

Any thoughts?

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselgman on January 07, 2016, 01:05:43 PM
You have built a basic "capillary tube" which is exactly what Lister service training calls for. Apart from a few minor changes in how you approach the timing mark with your crankshaft/camshaft you seem to be right on with the method.
A person can also use a plain old fuel injector line for the purpose, but in that case you cannot see the fuel movement except when it exits the top of the tube. In that case you would roll the engine backwards through the timing point and watch for the precise point where fuel STOPS flowing. Of course one will need a properly marked flywheel for the timing point... that is another topic.

dieselgman
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 07, 2016, 01:37:57 PM
Hi GMan,

Yep...had one of these a long time ago... was lent out and never came home probably.... Don't you just hate it when that happens....

Personally I don't like the spill timing method, its messy! (and fumbling around with little bits and bobs ie the non return valve, at night in the dark isnt too good for me these days... A 5 minute timing job ends up being a 1 hour "where the @#%$ did that go" job...LOL...Signs of age I suppose...)

As to the bolt advance method to advance the timing spot on, it works..... if you can get the spanner to the head of the timing bolt... In the end though, practicality prevailed and I rocked the engine back and forth about 180 degrees to set and verify the timing.... The capillary tube works a treat - its around 1.5mm ID, easy to see and easy to fit....(Now, bear in mind that there's nothing wrong with my eyesight, its just that my arms are too short.... So, as part of the test, I set the timing pretty much by feeling for the timing mark on the flywheel and watching the blurred stripe of the fuel level in the capillary change... Me without glasses for anything less than 4ft focal point is about the same as wearing a badly folded blindfold for anybody else.... This should make my life easier in the future, even at night!!)

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: 38ac on January 07, 2016, 01:59:04 PM
Sure is nice when I am working on an old original that has the timing window in the side of the pump and all one has to do is align the marks.
 I dont like spill timing either so when timing up a windowless Indian pump I use a specially bent fuel line and and injector to squirt fuel in the face of the flywheel. This works best for me.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 07, 2016, 10:14:54 PM
Hi 38ac,

I like the injector squirt method too... I did try it and it worked well. What I found with it, was an inherrently more accurate way due to the fact that it allowed for the slight delay in popping the injector.. When I set mine up using that method, there was a consistent 2 or so degree lag between the static timing and the dynamic way... I put it down to the little bit of "stretch" that was in the piping as the fuel system rose to pop pressure... What I found out eventually though, was that as the IP element wore, the slower the engine was turned over, the more retarded the timing appeared due to a bit of slip on the start of the injection stroke on the IP... Ultimately, this low speed slip caused me to consistently set the injection event too advanced, causing a fair amount of diesel knock while running... Luckily, I am fairly well versed with the amount of knock that should be present, so I am able, by and large, to set the motor by "ear" so as to speak... Setting it by spill or capillary, at zero pressure, works best for another reason for me too... The pump is slightly worn, depending on fuel viscosity, the injection event also changes a bit too... Likewise with pop pressure as well... An interesting thing I noted, was when pushing up the pop pressure a bit, the timing retarded slightly, but with a bit better atomisation, it seemed to balance out... the same thing occurred when I dropped the pop pressure... timing advanced slightly, lower atomisaton rate, similar or very close ignition characteristics... When I timed it dynamically, with a high pop pressure, it was a bit knocky, similarly when I timed it with a low pressure, it was sluggish and a wee bit underpowered..

I played around with a super long injection line, about 1m or so, it was quite interesting to note the difference in performance when you ran it on test, then swopped lines and ran a similar test again on a short line... Something definitely does change.... One would think that the non return valve would cater for this change in line length, possibly it does, but there is definitely a difference in the injection event, you can even hear it as a different tone creak as the injector pops off... Possibly it alters injection needle bouce frequency? Who knows? But I can tell you, it wasn't for the better... Keep the lines as short as possible....

The static method does definitely give a more accurate setting, for me anyway, particularly if the element has a good few hours on it... I am still trying to fathom a simple, reliable and easy way of making up a mechanism to advance or retard the injection from a nominally correct setting, whilst the engine is running... That would be the bees knees as far as I am concerned.... Any suggestions?


On another note... Eventually pulled my finger out of rear orifice and fitted the Micro In Line Filter..... let's not abbreviate that one, shall we... seems to be OK, ran the beast to temperature and then swopped the straight line out with the return filtered one when it was nice and warm... it would be interesting to see what garbage it collects over its lifetime....

Right, enough rambling from my side...

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 08, 2016, 09:22:13 AM
Hi Guys,

Some interesting thoughts....(Well to me anyway...)

When I installed TM1 and was running him just about full time, one thing I noticed was that the crankcase temperature seldom got above about 45C or so(This is after a good couple of hours running too).... I played with Cyl head temps, water jacket temps, restricted cooling to radiator and or entire machine... It warmed up a little in the crankcase department, but not dramatically...I had a constant concern that the bottom end was not reaching true/correct operating temperature...

Then the big end went bang.....

When I reassembled and rebuilt the bottom end of TM1, about the only things that were different between the old and new crank setup wise, were:
1)Seating of the lower end of the cylinder was reduced by removing all spacers/gaskets and installing a bond paper spacer in place thereof
2)Main TRB's were shimmed to the correct clearance/endplay as opposed to around .4mm interference if I remember correctly ... (Caused run-out on the flywheels it was so bad)
3)An extra large and long, as well as ported dipper was installed on the conrod cap....

Now... Item 1 might cause the crankcase to warm up a little, but not by too much I dont think... Item 2 would cause the bearing trumpets to run cooler...

Item 3 - This has had the greatest effect on the temp distribution - I would go so far as to say that if your cylinder is not roughly the same temp as your crankcase, maybe within 5 or 10 degrees difference, that there is insufficient splash lubing from the dipper... thinking back, many years ago, I always remember the crankcase of these engines, the Lister's that is, being hot to the touch... Not so hot that you burnt yourself, but hot enough that it was a bit uncomfortable to hold your hand on the CC main door... Bear in mind, ambient temp around this part of the world is around 25-35C depending on your location, so around 25 to 35 degrees or more above ambient for the crankcase after extended running(just an estimate, if anybody wants an accurate i will IR shoot it)....

This might be an easy way to determine if you have enough splash going on inside to cool and flush the turny bits.... The actual lube side of things needs very little splash to do its job, but the oil in an engine has another job too - cooling and flushing.....

The dipper I have made is way "over the top" ... it clears sump bottom by about 10mm and with the weir full, it dips way below the surface, it is about 25 to 30% wider in section as it enters the oil too... I have found no increase in oil consumption or smoking compared to previous, also I have found no excessive leaks from the additional splashing happening...(barring a very tiny little seep between the cylinder and CC deck...There might be a burr on the deck that is messing around with my super thin bond paper shim...)

As to the holes on the top of the big end bearing, I am not so sure that these are oil entrance holes.... more exit holes.... but that is another discussion for another time..... :laugh:

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: 38ac on January 08, 2016, 11:30:35 AM
There is most definitely a growth in the high pressure line during the injection event, it can be felt with the fingers when the engine is running. A longer line would indeed delay injection all other things being equal this is why multi cylinder engines must have equal length lines to have equal cylinder timing.  Worn parts also delay timing as you have correctly summized.  The local Amish, to whom nothing is worn out until it is actully worn out times 2 will run the pumps until more fuel is leaking out from under it than is going to the injector, how they get the engines started is beyond me? I keep telling them there is a price to pay for running junk fuel, it aint a freebie ;) We install a new element, lap the delivery valves, wipe up the tears after we pry some cash away from them and send them on their merry way ;D.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 08, 2016, 01:18:57 PM
Hi 38,

Kinda sounds like it is around this part of the world too.... Just not the Amish and engines I deal with.... Kinda strange if you look at the big picture, major inconvenience to get the piece of apparatus running, it pees fuel or chews electricity because it is worn out, costs 3x as much to run ongoing in current condition from a time/resource/effort point of view, yet can be repaired/reworked at a cost about equivalent to a days running... which will be recouped in a short space of time by savings/overhead reduction.... Yet.... ... ... .. .. . .

Hmm.... I know somebody like that only too well.... Me.... I would rather spend an hour or 2 of my time repairing, let's say... a mousetrap...... rather than buying a new one....Lol...(but it is a better mousetrap when I am finished!!)...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: Tom on January 08, 2016, 07:57:49 PM
About the time they are peeing fuel, they do it 24/7, unless the fuel is shut off at the tank. Then you lose prime. Ask me how I know. My first IP pump rebuild is running like a champ.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 08, 2016, 10:04:25 PM
Hey Tom,

How old was your pump in engine hours before rebuild was needed, and how many hours since the rebuild?

I stuffed up my IP element withing the first few hours of running, thanks to some badly water contam'd pump bought diesel... thank goodness it was into a can and not into the Ford... a pump rebuild on the pickup coulda hurt bad....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: Tom on January 08, 2016, 10:24:55 PM
It was around 2100 hours, now at 2330 hours. There is not a Racor water separating fuel filter in the system. Apparently it was caused by water in the fuel, but it had a lot of different crap run thru the crappy paper filter that came with it. I need to get me a barrel heater to deal with wet fuel if/when that happens again.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: Hugh Conway on January 08, 2016, 10:57:50 PM
RE: Correlation between longer dipper and higher crankcase temp:

I have noticed same thing. My JKSON 6/1 daily driver has a shorter length dipper than my Dursley 6/1. Both dippers are solid and installed as designed with the edge cutting the oil rather than flat side. The Dursley dipper has about 1/4" clearance from the bottom of the sump. I can't say if there is a difference in oil consumption, as the Dursley is still being broken in, while the JKSON does not need oil added between changes and has just about 1000 hours on it. Of course, one has TRBs  and the other has sleeve bearings, otherwise much the same. The Dursley crankcase temp is significantly warmer after an equal running time.
The dipper in my Dursley was purchased from SEP and was too long to clear the crankcase, so I cut it down to clear. Maybe someone knows the actual correct length of a stock OEM dipper.
Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 09, 2016, 09:51:01 PM
Hey Tom/Hugh,

Tom, after the first stuff up with the watery dino, I now bring pretty much all fuel to the boil before I use it, but then again, I am a cheapskate and am using reclaimed oils only... since the first IP problem that is...

Hugh, I took a good look into the crankcase in both of my engines, and after much thinking and scratching my head, I can't see any real benefit to running the dipper in any other orientation other than crossways.... the more splashing around, the better I would think... if you start spewing oil from seals etc, crank vacuum is dodgy and needs attention... either in the rings department or in the vent department... but I cannot honestly see any benefit to less splash lube... if there is a valid reason to limit or lessen it, I certainly cannot see it...

The only reason I can see for shortening the dipper would be to allow a greater oil clearance below it in the sump/weir area to allow for more metal particles to slip into the apron, but, I don't think that a difference in dipper length would influence this greatly, maybe I am wrong though... anybody who has a better idea is welcome to correct me....

As far as I am concerned, when rings are bedded in, I am almost certain that you would need way more oil on the cylinder walls than what the max is that the dipper can put, to cause a problem... but maybe I am wrong.... What I can say though, TM1 is splashing oil around like a kiddy in a paddling pool, so far so good... There is certainly a logic to the angled dipper, throwing oil onto/into a less lubricated area, but with the dipper X ways, there is more than enough oil drenching everything... I just cannot wrap my head around the knife edge approach......

TM1 has a very bad seal between jacket and deck, even with the amount of oil being thrashed around, at full load, with the maximum gas being vented from the cc breather, there is less than a few droplets after a few hours running....

I have seen some long explanations regarding the dippers, but logic still tells me that the more oil flushing around, the better..

Your thoughts?

Regds
Ed

PS.... keep it spinning!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: Hugh Conway on January 09, 2016, 10:47:42 PM
Re dipper orientation:
I'm no engineering whiz, just use my engines to produce power for my off grid homestead. I set my dippers up as per the original design, figuring they would know best at the factory, especially after all those years of manufacturing. That said, we have seen it done both ways by many on the forum with apparently no ill effects either way. Probably makes little difference, even if the dipper was just cylindrical in shape. If one opens the access door when running, even with the dipper "cutting the oil", I can assure you that there is plenty of oil going to everywhere.....and I do mean everywhere! Ask me how I know ;D
Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: Tom on January 09, 2016, 11:01:29 PM
With the flat of the dipper facing the oil the oil may foam.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 10, 2016, 07:35:41 AM
Hi Guys,

I ran the dipper both ways.... knife on was defs less splash hitting the crank, cam etc, with a much colder crankcase... Flat ways was quite a bit more, crankcase slightly warmer, more splashing obviously... Then made up a longer tube dipper that penetrates the oil and clears weir bottom by about 1/2 inch or so.... That's a real splasher, crankcase gets hot now... I don't think the heat is from threshing the oil either, but rather wicking the heat away by conduction because its hitting everywhere.... it might be a bit excessive, but no ill effects so far... also not enough to foam as yet..

Keep it spinning...

Regs
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselgman on January 10, 2016, 02:45:50 PM
When the original Lister CS was designed the lubricating oil technology was quite different than today. I am pretty sure that our modern diesel lube oils include a good anti-foaming additive among other things. The purist would most likely prefer the knife-edge approach to dipper installation, but as long as you are not forcing oil out through any seals, rings or gaskets, then not likely any problems either way. These engines do not typically have any heating issues with their lower ends.

dieselgman
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 11, 2016, 08:37:59 AM
Hi DMan,

Agreed re the anti foaming, and about the dipper too... If this were an original "Show" engine, I would stick to authenticity above non-documented OEM improvements/changes for sure... As to the leakages, the oil penetration from velocity on the seams and gaskets doesn't seem to be a problem at this stage... the oil is defs hitting places it never got to before, so in my opinion, this is a good thing... I do notice, that there is a small amount of seepage on the sliding assemblies, ie cam followers and injector plunger, so far the injector plunger is the only one that has enough oil seepage to cause a few drops to be wiped up at the end of a 5 hour run...no oil out of main seals etc....

On another note - I have a spreadsheet of fuel consumption/power generation/maintenance/downtime/etc that I have been keeping up to date since TM1 went into service(and before) .... would anybody like to download it to see what the numbers are in a real world situation? (for your own info of course...as they are for mine...)

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 11, 2016, 12:15:33 PM
Hi Guys,

Here's some interesting things I picked up about the flywheels on TM2...

I am busy giving him a cursory going over, checking things I specifically had problems with on TM1, as well as any other little bits I notice on the way...

Flywheel balance was a big problem on TM1, so I have started with that and found the following on TM2:


Flywheel 2: 170g or so out of balance - casting flaws on a large section of rim and bad casting flaws in the center boss... up to 10-15mm deep by the looks of it.. See pics:

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 Bad Flywheel Casting 20160111 (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 Bad Flywheel Casting 20160111)


Flywheel 1: 310g out of balance at rim - Rim thickness relatively even - Spoke thickness relatively even... My concern is with a balance error of 310g, this means to me that, there is a 310g or equivalent, void in the material on the "light side" of the flywheel.... This is kinda scary, because this equates to a rather large sand pocket, or somewhat smaller, but not much, porous/missing/void area in the rather heavy, projectile capable, turny bits.....

(Note: TM1 and TM2 are both CBW units, so there is no "cast-in" counter balance weight in the flywheel proper..)

To you gents out there.... Opinions please!!

Keep it spinning....(safely)....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: 38ac on January 11, 2016, 12:36:35 PM
310G is a little less than 3 cubic inches of cast iron, 1 1/2 C.I missing on one side and 1 1/2 C.I. too much on the other side.  Internal voids are of course a possibility but it also doesnt take much variance in thickness one side to the other to make that 3 cubic inches if it is spread out over a large area. Just  a bit thin on one side and a bit thick on the other could easily be it.  The first operation after casting is the center hole, then the rim is machined, it would not take much of a miss calculation on the center hole to cause your situation.  I have seen enough holes drilled in flywheel rims to easily make 3 C.I of iron.  Safe or not depends on if the problem is due to core shift, machining error or internal flaws in critical area, There no way for me to make that determination from where I sit.  
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 11, 2016, 01:25:20 PM
Hi 38Ac,

Well put!! I think you are right about the minor dimensional differences, must admit, I didn't think flywheel one through clearly... Forgot about the 50/50 spread of mass due to a bit of off-center machining/casting....

And the other wheel with the bad voids around the boss and cold pour on the section of rim?

Your comments are appreciated!!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: BruceM on January 11, 2016, 04:00:13 PM
The photos of voids in hub and rim do give me pause and also make one wonder what's in the same casting that's NOT visible.  I don't know cast iron flywheel safety issues well enough...

I hope 38AC and/or Gary (dieselgman) will comment on the relative safety of running these.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 11, 2016, 07:48:40 PM
Hi Bruce,

Let's just say that I have been around something about the size of a lister flywheel and only slightly lighter that has let go from an over speed.. Fortunately it was in a controlled test environment, we were speed testing a rather large billet grinding wheel in a dedicated testing machine... that beast only weighed in at about half the weight of a flywheel... damn... my ears start ringing just thinking about it!

I hope 38ac and Gary pop in with their .02 worth.... on the mental exchange rate of experience, their .02 is worth $1000 to me!

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: mike90045 on January 11, 2016, 07:50:49 PM
.......On another note - I have a spreadsheet of fuel consumption/power generation/maintenance/downtime/etc that I have been keeping up to date since TM1 went into service(and before) .... would anybody like to download it to see what the numbers are in a real world situation? (for your own info of course...as they are for mine...)....

I'd like a copy, is it something you can host on a server, or email to folks ?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 11, 2016, 07:59:15 PM
Hi Mike,

If I don't get too snowed under tomorrow,  I will pop it on my server and give a link on this page... I need to clean out some private data from the file first, then its a for away....

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: 38ac on January 11, 2016, 09:17:04 PM
Edee ,
I couldn't view those photos earlier when I commented. That flywheel  with that big defect in the rim is very troublesome, I think I would have troubles running that one and most certainly would not ship it to a customer.  You could fashion up a rig to spin it up to ??? RPM maybe 1500 or so??  and if it doesn't KAboom you might get away with it at 800 RPM,, I don't know?? Be sure to set up a video because if it does go the effects will be dramatic! 
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: mike90045 on January 12, 2016, 03:44:18 AM
Find a friendly tire shop and try their wheel balancer. Somebody should be doing the big rig truck tires. Their balance machine should have variable RPMs. 

Or a roll of filament tape ?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselgman on January 12, 2016, 05:23:57 AM
The flywheel in question appears to have a number of troubling issues. The porous area around the hub could indicate some weakness there, and of course the balance issue with the rim voids is obvious enough. I would swap out that piece, anyone reputable with a concern for safety and reliability would do the same. We have seen many instances of the Indians burying such issues under their "finishing" bondo layers, eventually we hope to see someone truly enforce some QC standards. That is likely to require some serious investment due to the entrenched disregard for such things in the current overall business model. A lot of their cast work should be rejected back to the furnaces.

Lister/Petter was (and is currently) sourcing their engine blocks and other major castings directly from India, the reject rate in their Olathe Kansas plant was reportedly quite high for casting flaws and other defects. The price of doing business in the third world...
At the same time, I have seen a lot of very excellent iron and aluminum castings from the exact same sources.

dieselgman
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 12, 2016, 06:42:05 AM
Hi Mike,

Here is the spreadsheet with the info.... Have fun!!
http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Number Crunching (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Number Crunching)

Re the filament tape.... Hmm.... I think I will go cross-ply 10 Layer first with about 100 wraps of radial just in case.... Lol... Also, have a flywheel blow up on a balancer.... the "friendly" shop wont be friendly any longer.... This is a small town, I see tar and feathers in my future.....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: mike90045 on January 12, 2016, 06:55:55 AM
Wow, that's a spreadsheet !   thanks for sharing

So, was that the flywheel off the old engine, that had been running, or the replacement - i'd guess it's good for 600rpm ?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 12, 2016, 07:14:51 AM
Hi 38/Gman,

You guys pretty much mirror my sentiment - with the boss area weakened in the gib key area, this WILL give problems from a fixing perspective later on - it is not a dangerous flaw as such, but it will not hold the gib key in place with sustained running/pulsing long term. The porous CI will collapse over a period of time and the flywheel will loosen.

The rim on the other hand, is or could be dangerous - the section of cold pour/inclusion is fairly well bounded and can be visually discerned - up to around 5-600 RPM going by basic experience here, this rim should be ok. Above that and it would certainly be recc'd to speed test at the very least.  Speed testing at 2-2.5x the rated rpm would be sufficient. Herein lies a problem - There is nobody that I know that will be able to do this locally, and precious few that would do it nationally. I have been involved with destructive rotary speed testing(in the abrasives industry) in the past, and am familiar with the forces and impacts involved when turny bits go bang... I can assure you, it is loud, spectacular, frightening, scary.... bear in mind I repair guns for a living... they don't scare me.... those other things do!!!!

Speed testing of an item like this.... well lets just say that I worked out the energy involved with what would happen if one of my balance weights de-bussed from the flywheel - 170g traveling at 100km/hr... approx 15 grain to the gram ... balance weight of 2550 grain  .... 100km/hr approx 28 m/s .... now a 9mm para is around say 1000ft/s with a 120grn head... /3 to give approx m/s is 333m/s... around 10x faster than the weight... but the weight is 2550/12 ie 21x heavier than the 9mm head.... so roughly, very roughly speaking, the 170g weight will be leaving the wheel at about double the energy of a 9mm para.... and thats only 170g.... now.... the mind starts boggling when you envisage a 10 000g chunk of ci flying .... artillery school anybody?

Kinda scary huh....

I have dropped pics to the supplier, lets see what he says....

Keep it flying...

Regds
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 12, 2016, 07:16:02 AM
Hi Mike,

That pic was the flywheel off the new engine, TM2, I havent run it yet....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: 38ac on January 12, 2016, 12:54:39 PM
Ed,
I knew from reading your posts that you are very much smart enough to not spin that flywheel up inside the shop or even near anything that could be damaged so I didnt make that comment so as to not insult your intelligence ;)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 12, 2016, 03:27:25 PM
Hi 38Ac,

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Not to worry... no harm done.... was just a tad worried someone, somewhere, sometime.... You know how the story goes!! (Everything read on the internet is 100% true isn't it?)

I agree though, it would be something to see in slo-mo.... Picture the scene.... 1/2 a flywheel doing a boomerang looping flight at 100km/hr slowly disappearing over the horizon.... The camera pans back to a 550kg lump of wildly gyrating Indian cast iron with 1 1/2 flywheels as it does a foxtrot cum tango across the property after breaking loose from its mountings..... and in the background a quiet voice says....."Bugger.......I woznt expectin' dat to appen!!"

But..... On another note.... Just got word from the supplier, a replacement flywheel will be with me as soon as they can freight it!  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Keep it smiling....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 14, 2016, 10:11:54 AM
Hi Guys,

Couldn't resist it.... No CC Door should be without a bit of custom "bling"....

http://www/warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 CC Door Bling 20160114 (http://www/warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 CC Door Bling 20160114)

Yep, hand tight is good enough.... did a short run and no oil was seeping, lets see how it does on this evenings' cogen run....

Keep it blinging!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 14, 2016, 03:13:24 PM
Hey Guys,

Can never have too much bling.... After making the bling-nuts, I couldn't resist getting my son to paint the inner of TM1's house.... If he's gonna look like Mr T, he deserves a nicer looking pad!

About all that I wanted to play with has now been played! I think TM1 will get a final touch-up of paint, and then be relegated to "cart-horse" status.... he is about to become a draft animal now, his son, TM2 will be the next toy on the bench.... Cant decide the route to take though, would like TM2 to be a more "portable" unit, lower RPM, say around the 500 or so, double flywheels maybe.... just cant decide.... possibly run him as a slave genset, coupling him in phase to TM1, or as an inductive, assisting, non-phase sensitive gen unit.... Suggestions?

The final paint-job on TM1's house - http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Closure Painted Inside 20160114 (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Closure Painted Inside 20160114)

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 15, 2016, 02:21:51 PM
Ed

there was a guy on this forum years ago that used to work in the oil industry as a chemist If memory serves me correctly.

And his comments on the distillation of any oil was that it is a very dangerous undertaking. And you would eventually have an explosion of you still.
The cracking of oil is fraught with unseen dangers. But I also have considered trying to do it. Just saying watch your self or you could find yourself in a situation like you talked of with the broken flywheel or grind stone flying through the air only this time the propulsion will be from exploding petrol. and the debris will be the lines or tanks the oil is being boiled in.

Bill swan

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your concerns, its great to know that other people are looking out for you!!

I am aware of the dangers and concerns regarding the distillation and fractionalisation of liquids, it was, whilst working in a lab, that I got "a bit of" (yeah, I know, a bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing... but at 50+ I still have most of my body parts and intend to keep it that way!!) practical experience with it... It is certainly not something that can be taken lightly and frivolously, 300C and above kinda makes living things die.... especially if coated thoroughly.... the quantities involved do not make much difference to the dangers involved either, something that is often overlooked. But, if you look at it closely, approach the problems cautiously, and take note of the dangers and risks involved, it can be done..... I would rather personally be working on an oil still than let some people loose with a chip fryer.... ::) ::) ....

While on the note of oil distillation, I might have come up with a dandy little self feeding, continuously operational oil still design, powered by a mini heat exchanger at the first exhaust bend.... I will run a few temperature tests this weekend probably and see if it will be a viable undertaking.... Key aspects must be: Safety, Safety, Production Rate, Safety, Ease of Cleaning, Safety, Convenience, Safety, Ease of Startup, Safety, and of course....Safety!

I am not looking at fractionalisation at this stage, simply boiling off and condensing to see tar and solid removal will be a success, and what quantities can be processed on the micro scale.......

Of course, there is always an ulterior motive, I need to replace the first exhaust bend with a "T" joiner plugged on one end anyway to facilitate inspection and decarboning should it be required..... Kinda suits the need for the place to put an EGT probe in too....

Keep it Spinning.....

Regds
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: buickanddeere on January 15, 2016, 04:16:10 PM
Going to loose a lot of btu 's if the light ends are vented to atmosphere instead of into the engine's air intake. Of course run away protection will be required.
   
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 15, 2016, 05:26:03 PM
Hi B&D,

Plenty losses indeed, I am expecting that by and large... I am just keen to see what ratio gets broken down to gas/liquid/solid at STP ... If too much of the light ends can't be condensed at STP and too much goes off into the wide blue yonder, the process will be a bust as far as fuel processing goes.... I am also not keen at all to catch and compress LPG or similar, the rate of production of gaseous product, I am hoping, will be pretty low once condensed... Also, this entire process will be performed in a very well vented and open area (relatively speaking), so heavier than or lighter than air byproducts will not accumulate at all.... I am also defs gonna make sure that TM doesn't snort it in... Last thing I want is a runaway situation....

As to energy losses for the heating of the goop, I will be pulling that from the first foot or so of hi temp exhaust gas, so it won't cost me anything in the grand scheme of things I don't think... particularly as there is still a fair amount of residual heat lost from the last 4m of stack anyways, and that is after I have reclaimed as much heat as I can currently use with the existing heat exchangers.... if the goop doesn't process nicely, there are two paths open to me, either scrap the distillation bits completely and plug the T piece or, possibly better, remake the mini boiler from stainless(its a small length of pipe, so no big thing) and process and distill good old H2O... Distilled water is always handy, from an aspect of long term storage for drinking, to use in battery cells....

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 16, 2016, 11:36:43 PM
Hi Guys,

Part one of mini still is now in place...

I pulled off the first exhaust elbow today and replaced it with a 2 1/2" T piece... Took a bit of fancy guestimations in the length department to get it all back together... actually it was no real biggie, just had to thread some custom length pipe nipples to keep exhaust in the right place... there was not too much room for error as the pipes we were mating to have plumbed in heat exchangers for the house... just took a bit more time than I wanted, measure thrice, cut once!

At the end of it all, all I have to show for it is an itchy and scratchy body after unwrapping the fibreglass lagging which is well cooked and brittle by now... its amazing the places you develope itches when that fine stuff blows around.... :o

After we got the T in place, I installed a reducing bush in the top end, at 90 degrees to the exhaust flow, and stuck the pyrometer in to get a feel for the EGT we would be playing with under normal conditions.... At 50% load(10A@220V), the EGT hovers between 350 and 390 C... at near full to full load(20A@220V) we end up at around 550 to 600C.... These measurements were taken at about 10" from the exhaust flange, right where we will position the boiler bottom probably.... The thermocouple was encased in a 6mm steel line and lowered into the gas stream, readings were taken after the temperature stabilised....

While I had the pyrometer going, I looked at the effect of WI on EGT and head temperature... Quite interesting...

Under normal running, 4L per hour or so WI, the above temps were taken. Start heavy flush, 3-400 ml per minute, and a sudden spike in EGT is noted, probably due to better heat conduction and transferring heat from the combustion chamber into the exhaust system. Maintain the hi flow, and EGT starts dropping rapidly as the heat is carried away from the motor internals to the exhaust proper... After going back to 4 to 5 L / hr, the EGT is about 5 to 10 degrees hotter than previous, once stabilised.... After an hour or so, the EGT has declined to the original measurements taken... I surmise that this is due to a small soot boundary layer that forms under normal running conditions... The WI boost is not really long enough to influence the head and coolant temps to any great degree... if I run a medium amount of water through the system, around 8L/hr, sustained for 2 to 3hrs, the head and coolant temp drops by about 10 to 15 degrees and maintains... this is around 125ml per minute if I calculated it out right... EGT climbs initially, then drops down and holds at around 250-300C... This tells me that there is little to no water in the exhaust stream, all is converted to steam in the cleaning process.... (Daytime air temps were around the 20 to 22C for all you purists that want to work out the exhaust energy capacity...)

Another interesting thing I noted, little to zero carbon buildup in the exhaust proper, in that first stage of heat exchanger that I really expected to clog up.... Note: 1700hrs plus, of questionable fuel and varied load conditions.... interestingly, barring the dark colour, the texture of the internal galvanising on the pipes can clearly be seen in the longitudinal weld area... this tells me that there is less than .2mm or so of buildup ... absolutely awesome! With this performance, it is actually a waste of time to make the exhaust that brushes may be inserted for cleaning.... why bother?

Tomorrow I will be doing the itchy and scratchy thing again.... re-lag the header pipe with fibreglass tape..... I wonder if my son is coming to visit.... I am sure I could play waiter and ferry the ales while he lags it..... I wonder if he will catch on to my sly trickery...

Right... enough said....

Keep on scratching....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselgman on January 17, 2016, 12:47:58 AM
Just watch out for breathing in any of that itchy scratchy stuff... known to cause lung cancer for sure. A close-fitting respirator mask would be well advised.

dieselgman
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: broncodriver99 on January 17, 2016, 06:04:42 AM
Tomorrow I will be doing the itchy and scratchy thing again.... re-lag the header pipe with fibreglass tape..... I wonder if my son is coming to visit.... I am sure I could play waiter and ferry the ales while he lags it..... I wonder if he will catch on to my sly trickery...

I insulated my attic today. 2 showers later I think I finally got all of the fiberglass out. I feel your impending pain.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: George A on January 17, 2016, 01:35:36 PM

"..... I wonder if my son is coming to visit.... I am sure I could play waiter and ferry the ales while he lags it..... I wonder if he will catch on to my sly trickery..."[/quote]

"Youth and skill will never overcome old age and treachery"........my personal mantra  ;D.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 17, 2016, 09:04:24 PM
Hi Guys,

Well, it was itchy and scratchy full time for me today! ....

Actually, I am making a rather large mountain out of a very tiny spoon of sand... the lagging was only about 2 feet's worth of pipe, triple and quadruple lagged in places, but the close confines of the closure means you actually have the exhaust just about up your nought to do it... Let's say it was unpleasant, but not intolerable....

More about the experiment currently on the go....

I installed a small steel 'cup' I'm the path of the exhaust gas flow, it is around 35mm dia, about 100mm long.... It is stepped about 1/2 way up and extends for about another 80mm or so with an OD of 42mm ... This is ring clamped using a split ferrule, so its height/exhaust restriction can be adjusted in the gas path... It is fitted entering into the top of the T piece I installed yesterday, the RHS of the T comes from the exhaust header, the bottom of the T feeds the start of the first water heat exchanger with the exhaust gas...

Temps as measured today, under normal load, 50% or so, ie 2.4kw, heated the oil in the cup to around 250C, it was starting to bubble and smoke, but not enough to class it as a full boil... There was just too much heat loss to allow it to get to temp fully... Also, the gas impingement area is just not enough to draw off enough heat to do the job properly... Unfortunately, because of the design of the exhaust system at header, there is no real easy way to improve matters to any large degree that I can see at this stage... If I make the heating cup longer and thinner and extend it into the inner of the heat exchanger tube, there is a chance that at the reduced diameter I will have to use, coupled with the additional length, there will be a vapour lock occurring and expulsion of hot oil under this vapour pressure... Not a good thing!

Possibly I might be able to install a brass rod to act as a heat wick, extending 100 mm or so below the base of the cup, going through the base of the cup and extending 20mm or so into the inside... This might just give me enough heat collection to get the bugger to boil, but of this I am not really sure.... The heat collected, easily boils off water, so all is not lost... As it now stands, the unit is way capable of being used for water distillation... All tests so far have been carried out with new lubricating oil, this is probably the most difficult for me to work with, as there are anti-boil inhibitors I am sure... correct me if I am wrong.... Also, if I remember correctly, the target temp for boiling the gunk off is around 300 to 350C, so I am about a third short on the temperature scale.....

I can make the mini heatex much more efficient at collecting the gas heat, but with doing that, cleaning will be a nightmare... If anybody has any simple and easily-cleanable ideas, now is your time to holler loudly!

Keep it cooking'

Regds
Ed

PS - Just read some of the balancing threads on this site.... interesting and informative... can't say I agree with everything, but I can video a very slow run up through the rev range to show what is possible.... Anybody interested?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: vdubnut62 on January 18, 2016, 04:00:09 AM
Of course we're interested! I like to think that all here are mechanical junkies. Speaking only for myself, yes, I am jonesing for slo-mo video.
Ron.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 18, 2016, 10:22:55 AM
Hey Guys/Ron,

I am busy prepping the vid now... Will have to edit and resize it a bit, I reckon 230+ Mb is a bit big.... The final output should be around 120Mb, still a bit big, but it is a 3 1/2 min file with sound....

I start TM1, and then hold it at a very slow idle, (something I don't like doing, I don't think the big end was designed for this sort of hammering), I then bring it slowly up to speed, holding it at the resonant frequency of the frame for a few secs (again, something I try not to do normally), then up to full speed and back down slowly again. After that, from the low speed, I allow it to climb to speed normally and turn on load, this is the normal rev pickup for him.... 

Notes:
1) The chassis is on steel wheels, resting on rubber pads to lessen ground thumping(This actually gives it a bit of bounce).
2) There are no restraints on the chassis to prevent it rocking backwards and forwards.(Little to no braking effect, it can be rolled by hand, just a bit of axle friction.)
3) Take note of the oil can balanced on the tappet cover for an idea of vibration, bounce and slide.
4) Watch for "Radiator Sway" when the whole unit hits the right frequency.
5) The wall plug, High Left, that I reach across to, controls the 220v "starter motor with rubber tyred wheel" on off... Out of frame, at the bottom of the chassis is a pedal that I depress to engage the rubber tyre/motor with the flywheel.(Motor is 0.75kw, 1400 RPM with a single pulley reduction)
6) On the Genhead, there is a trip switch I engage to power the house, I built an auto-cutover circuit that swops utility/gen when there is output power from the genhead.
7) Yeah, I know, there is still a bit of paintwork to be done...particularly on the blue day-tank and inlet manifold, I will get around to it soon....I promise!
8 ) The video ends with a shot of the load and voltage, around 2 1/2KVa....
9)Between the radiator stand and engine, there is a pressure gauge on the pipe on the wall... As I turn on output power from the genhead, the hot water cogen pump brings the system up to pressure, the coiled cable with a yellow plug is just a temp install to check a temperature reading, normally its not there!!
10) The black Cable going to the inlet manifold is linked to a shutdown handle in the house from the shutoff lever....."Old School"...
11)Its a Ruger .357 Stainless "Service Six" .... ::)

Enjoy the vid and post some comments!!

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Videos/TM1 Slow Startup and Vibration Demo(0).avi (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Videos/TM1 Slow Startup and Vibration Demo(0).avi)

Keep it spinning!!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: Tom on January 18, 2016, 05:38:18 PM
How about uploading that vid to youtube? The server it's on is really slow right now.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 18, 2016, 09:22:52 PM
Hey Tom,

How about this https://youtu.be/-eAtQRzR4PI (https://youtu.be/-eAtQRzR4PI)

Dunno if it will work.... hope it does...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: Tom on January 18, 2016, 09:43:16 PM
That looks pretty darn smooth to me.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselgman on January 19, 2016, 12:20:28 AM
Sweet machine!   ;)

dieselgman
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: vdubnut62 on January 19, 2016, 12:35:34 AM
Very nice!
Ron.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 22, 2016, 09:35:06 AM
Thanx Guys!!

Your comments and advice are appreciated!!BIG TIME!!

I am pretty much happy as all things stand now with TM1 - his final coat of paint has been applied - About the only thing to do is to neaten up all the dangly bits and maybe put on an overheat sensor/alarm.....

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Final Paint 20160122/IMAG0673.jpg (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Final Paint 20160122/IMAG0673.jpg)

and

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Final Paint 20160122/IMAG0674.jpg (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Final Paint 20160122/IMAG0674.jpg)

He is in pretty much daily service now, about the only thing left unanswered is the top ring life now that a double top ring has been installed....Time will tell!

You learned gents out there: I have procured a goodly number of 2mic sock filters (absolute according to supplier) and ran via gravity, about 20-30L of WMO through one as a test.... There wasn't much, if any major filling restriction when I poured it through... Your comments please? (The oil was a regular mix of gunk out of a diesel tractor sump, no coolant, a bit of paraffin/diesel, was left to settle for a few days in the hot sun...40C or so....poured through at around 25C.......no sediment was poured.... Your experience with WMO/WVO and sox would be appreciated.... I have used sox before, but only in the water treatment line with di-earth and gravel....

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed

PS - Wow...OMG... WTF... Unreal....

I have just sat down after a filter, fill and start of TM1....

The last of my really bad sump gunk has been used. We got hold of around 150L of "fresh" gunk in 5L containers yesterday and I left it for basic settling for a 24hr period. This was then sock filtered only(its dry and no coolant....and I am lazy...) and 30L put into the thumper... No diesel to thin, no other preparation done... TM1 is running awesome, revs are up about 10%, I had to turn down the governor.... There is little smoke at about 90% load, very little diesel knock relatively speaking.... The difference is like night and day compared to the other stuff.... This is really food for thought. All I can say regarding this batch compared to the other content-wise, is that this is all in 5L containers, roughly matched to the vehicles they came out of. This lot of sump stuff is pretty much from petrol engines only.... Now, this coming week, I start using the rest of the batch that is in diesel oil 5L containers....Any forecasts on what the results will be?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: mike90045 on January 22, 2016, 03:59:59 PM
I don't see how the fuel, could require re-adjusting the governor ?  At so many RPM, the weights move, and adjust the throttle. 
 Was any de-burr or spring tuning done in the governor circuit at all?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 23, 2016, 07:08:35 AM
Hi Mike,

Makes no sense to me either... A change in fuel should only cause very minor changes, almost imperceptible, enough to make the rack close a little more than usual... maybe a couple of rpm difference allowing for mechanical tolerances vs spring tension...but, there was a marked difference...

I actually think there is something else on the go... late yesterday, the timing started to retard quite badly, I advanced it a bit to keep going and found that the IP was just about bottoming out.... Possibly the element is a bit dodgy, I will replace it today, might as well check the pop pressure while I am at it too...

I have noticed before, that when changing fuels, deposits tend to loosen and flush... maybe this is what happened and caused a bit of scoring on the element... who knows? Let's strip it and see...

Have no clue as to where a lump o shite hard enough would originate from... the filter/line/IP/injector hasn't been opened since the last time the tank was flushed and cleaned, maybe a piece of grit was lying in the low area of the fuel pipe and got shifted with me bleeding the system... school fees...

I will strip, clean and report!

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 23, 2016, 06:14:07 PM
Hi Guys,

Another day in Listerland, another dollar........(spent)....

Pulled the IP earlier today and swopped out the element... Performance was terrible.... at 20A........, let's just say it never got there.....

So..... enough of this bs...... pulled off the entire pump and put the pump on from TM2..... performance is reasonable, smoking less, doing 20A again, running slightly cooler......(and running straight unthinned sump gunk again....)

What have I learnt...... larger IP element gives more initial fuel to the burn, gives better combustion overall.... the previous element, and the one before, were 8mm .... the original is a 10mm bore element... it looks like the 10mm gives a more substantial initial crack on the injector, causing the overall burn to be a bit better in toto....  With WMO anyway... When running dino, or thinner oils than straight WMO, there seems to be little difference overall....

Side remarks: the injector crack pressure is still at 2200psi, the timing is dead on 20BTDC, same engine and setup, no changes per se... After changing the IP, I had to drop the governor tension slightly, there is probably a small mechanical difference between the two IP's...

I am still puzzling over the speed variance yesterday when changing fuels.... I cannot duplicate it, so it might have been an anomaly due to contamination and the subsequent mech  failure of the element itself... (BTW Mike, no deburring, no tension change, no nothing... just mystery...)

On the note of IP element change, diameter wise anyway, it definitely affects the fuel burn characteristics, these are more pronounced with the less ideal fuels... A good initial dump at 20BTDC in a 12/1 cs engine seems way better than the lower initial dump and longer subsequent injection stroke to come up to equivalent injection volume that occurs with a smaller diameter element... I have been running 8mm elements in TM1 for quite a while, only today I swopped back to a 10mm element.... Comparatively speaking, this is about a 30% difference in area, so I guess its around about the same percentile difference in initial injection volume... Interesting....

One thing I noticed, to recap, the difference in realised output differed little between the two size elements when running decent fuels... obviously, the 10mm element yielded a slightly higher final/max output power, with more smoke etc, but in the 'clean running' range, there was little between them... remember, TM1 is down rated from 1000 to 750 rpm, so final power is arount the 8 to 9 HP range.... the 8mm IP element is what is recommended for the 8 to 10 HP engines if I remember correctly, but don't quote me....

Have any of you gents played with injection rates by changing IP element diameters? If you have, what experiences did you come up with?

Well, again I ramble on.....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselgman on January 23, 2016, 06:47:36 PM
Just from memory, in the smaller air-cooled Listers the i.p. element size increments in one-half millimeter sizes from about 6mm to 8.5mm (and fitted to 3hp per cylinder up to 10hp per cylinder also in about 1 to 1 1/2 hp increments). To my knowledge this is dialed in to the engine's displacement and power-band (maximum output in the specific designed speed range). Most of them are typically designed for min 1200 and 2500 max rpm. I know from experience that dropping a smaller element into a larger displacement engine is acceptable as long as you are able to keep the total power demands below the overload stop on the pump (and de-rate accordingly for the smaller fuel delivery). Going the other way would likely produce unacceptable results regarding efficiency - the fuel burn rate and total combustion. Of course the CS operating at 750 rpm is a slightly different animal.

Your experiments are interesting and do test the original assumptions about fuel mixtures and burn characteristics... to really apply across many engines, there would need to be a lot of instrumentation and precise measurements included because there are so many variables involved.

dieselgman
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 24, 2016, 12:53:44 PM
Hi Gman,

Thanks for that info... Much appreciated!

This Beastie of mine has no overload stop, the governor 'pull' maxes out and the pump doesn't quite make it all the way open when pulled to the max... In fact it stops about 1/8 to 1/4" shy of max opening... while I had it stripped down, I took a look at what could be done to go into overfuel mode to make starting a bit easier, and it looked like the governor travel had been limited internally, probably by shitty assembly and alignment.... It is on plan to clean up the innards a bit and make things able to hit the max, but that will be done on the next rebuild I reckon... I will of course, put a limiter on it for normal running.

Incidentally, Mike, I am running a barrel of diesel engine sump gunk again, the revs have dropped off a bit, the governor seems a bit lazy so as to speak with this stuff. The previous stuff I was running was petrol sump gunk, it burns much easier by the looks of it... I think the rev increase I was picking up might be a governor deficiency, while it regulates satisfactorily for my purposes, the burn rate defs seems to affect the, or be affected by, the governor setup. Under normal condition, I have about 5%variance in speed/volts output, up or down. The better the fuel, the lower the variance seems to be. Probably had a fair amount of dissolved petrol in the last batch, giving a higher cetaine, hence a more responsive/sensitive governor... I actually don't know, just guessing... I can say, this batch that I am running on is very difficult to start, but maybe there is is another gremlin that's crept in that I am not aware of. I do know that my temp exhaust valve job is not going to hold forever, possibly I should just swop heads and see if there is any change, I am sure TM2 wouldn't complain, he is still waiting on the replacement flywheel anyway(and as of yesterday, a replacement 10mm IP element)....

Oh well, should I take the afternoon off, or should I tidy up the workshop, or should I change cylinder heads.....? So many decisions.... so few ales....

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 24, 2016, 05:37:23 PM
Hey guys,

No workshop got tidied, no cylinder head change, no afternoon off either...but... I did make up a small 500ml fuel tank... why?

Well, its not so much a fuel tank as a fuel funnel... I knocked it up out of a cooldrimk bottle, some plumbing bits and other bitsoshit I had lying around in the workshop....

I am really keen on playing around a bit more accurately with fuel mixes.... This mini funnel-tank allows me to make up a sample mix and run it through the machine to see how it performs... With the wide variance there is with WMO, this is about the only way I can think of in practical terms to test the fuel...

TM1 has a T in his food pipe with a ball valve on each end... one side is permanently plumbed into the day tank, the other was used as a port for the onboard original tank, now removed....

I ran some dino through the system testing the joints, all is well.....

Now, a question to ask... in practical terms, what colour exhaust smoke is acceptable? (How much obviously depends on engine capacity and revs).. let's say running at 1/2 to 3/4 rated load. I am keen to hear, and even possibly see, what other members find acceptable from a smoke point of view... I am choosing a 1/2 load point as this seems to me to be about the average load I have seen run from my set, obviously it ranges quite a bit, but it seems a good starting point.... Also, what fuel are you running, and with or without WI?

Keep on spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: buickanddeere on January 25, 2016, 02:10:06 AM
About the only way to know is to plot fuel flow vs generator output. Find the point where increasing  % of fuel shows less % gain in power.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 26, 2016, 09:49:55 AM
Hi B&D,

Not overly interested in a power/consumption plot at this stage.... I am looking more at what everybody considers a reasonable exhaust gas colour - ie mild grey at 1/2 load or dark grey at 3/4 load or black tinge at 3/4 load....

Its a very lax/inaccurate thing, I am aware of this, and my "dark grey" could be your "black tinge"....Lol... just trying to get a feel for it...

For instance, at mid load, TM1 gives a very light grey, this dissipates within about 2m of the outlet....

It is NOT meant to turn into a "mine burns better than yours" fight.... it is just to get an indicator of what everybody's expectations and level of exhaust smoke are acceptable to each person individually... I, for one, think I am too critical of my exhaust emission clarity....(Oh, and to really throw a nice variable into it, when i turn on the water, on a cold day I get plenty of grey steam....same water rate on a hot day is only slightly visible....)

Keep on smoking....

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: mike90045 on January 26, 2016, 03:10:20 PM
color of smoke
 I try to run as clear as possible, I manually adjust the battery charging load for about a 10 min warming period, gradually raising the load to 2700watts, which still gives me clear exhaust.  The IR thermometer on the the ex pipe reads 370F and quickly drops if I reduce the load.

I find at 2700w, the exhaust is nearly odorless, unlike my other diesel, 3600 rpm genset, which, while clear, stinks at any load
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: buickanddeere on January 26, 2016, 03:19:56 PM
I was trying to say that stack colour is not a particularly accurate method to eyeball engine efficiency. Plotting fuel to output graphs to find the point of diminishing returns as fuel increases . Is the way to find the engine's "sweet spot". Compression ratio, injector spray pressure, fuel manufacture, injection timing , air temperature , coolant temperature , lube oil brand/viscosity and rpm will all vary smoke colour.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: 38ac on January 26, 2016, 05:10:30 PM
A CS engine tested at the factory was required to pull a full load with clear exhaust, that was of course on #2 diesel, not that goop you run :D
  An interesting little fuel system piece that the Indian's choose not to worry about is the rack limiter.  The 8/1, 6/1 and 5/1 engines were never meant to be run at full rack with the standard 7MM element, not even close to it. Full rack was used only as an aide to starting, 'twas called the over fuel position. It was achieved by flipping the fuel stop over. Once the engine started and came up to speed the rack limiter came back into play and limited (severely) the rack moment and thus fuel available for work. 

As B&D suggested there is a point of little return then on to no return when adding fuel and the point of diminishing returns starts before visible smoke.  Instrumentation would not  be all that hard to set up and run I dont think? Certainly educational for a person who is into such?

You had asked earlier if anyone had played around with larger diameter fuel pump elements?  I have I kept my trap shut because its one of those things that a person must think through thoroughly prior to the attempt because bad things, very bad can happen if he does not.  I will say that my experiments are based around the need for a good and repeatable fix for the laziness in the CS governor, not increased power.   I reasoned that a large element would require less rack travel  to achieve an increase in torque when called for.  I am not going to list particulars here because i don't want people going out and ordering an element that will destroy their camshaft lobe in 15 minutes if they dont do all the needed work.  I will say that my experiments with large elements for engine driving alternators are VERY promising. What has not been worked out is the required rack limit stops in the manner of a production quality salable piece. The element I am running in my 8/1 KOEL engine is,, uh let us say VERY large.  Governor response is as good as any modern set. More o nthis once the shop is back up running and details are worked out, I promise.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 26, 2016, 08:37:53 PM
Mike:

Thanks for the info, much appreciated, interesting to note your warm up period.... I am not quite so gentle with my beast... I slow run for about 20 to 30 secs, allowing the lube to splash around a bit then put it straight onto working load once its up to working revs....

B&D:

Agreed re the accuracy point, but it does give an indication of potential carbon buildup in upper cyl and exhaust... as well as the most basic indication of burn... surely, lube oil, ring condition etc come into it, but on a reasonably sound motor, well...... enough said!

38ac:

Noted re the lister spec... Them injuns have a built in rack limit on mine.... the governor hasn't got a hope in hell of pulling further than its max point!

I have seen, when running on gunk, a large element makes a difference to power output/smoke emission, not because of more fuel, but because of more fuel earlier in the injection stroke... a small element, although giving sufficient power over the entire rack to max position, was very smokey at exhaust... the larger element, giving a bigger portion of fuel earlier in the injection event.... although final power output was largely similar, larger gives a cleaner exhaust, or seems to anyway... my thinking is more efficient, but only marginally to slightly more.. The downside is that because of the greater volume injected earlier in the injection event, is that the motor running becomes more prone to knocking.(Getting tongue tied here, but I think you will get my drift)

Agreed re running out and getting a bigger element just to try and get more power.... something will break.... for sure! But, by the same token, a larger element seems to be more tolerant to lower fuel quality by the looks of it, but again, take care, bad things can happen quickly! By and large, I am willing to risk TM1 by trying an even bigger element still, do you know offhand if there are 11, 12, or 13mm elements available? My local guys get a glazed look when I ask for anything even remotely out of the ordinary...they swore blind that a 10mm element didn't exist, even when I dangled it in front of their probosci....

By and large, so far, my playing leads me to the following relationship, albeit very general and maybe over simplified:
Lower revs - you can go down in element size
Better fuel, or fuel with a higher cetane - go down in size
Lower quality fuel, or fuel with a lower cetane - go up in size.
Higher revs than rated....... don't go there....
But, if you go down in revs and down in cetane/fuel quality, element will probably be OK as standard!

In playing with the bigger bore elements, do you recall if there were any cam differences specd as far as travel etc?

Keep it pumping....

Regds
Ed

PS - I will admit, governor response does seem better with the larger element, so maybe its not my imagination....Lol...

PPS - design spec for me was 4 to 5 kw average - 4.4kw on diesel sump gunk yields medium volumes of black smoke, the same on petrol sump gunk yields grey to dark grey smoke, the same again on pure dino yields a light grey to clearish... but.... the sump gunks burn with less knocking and don't smell as bad as dino.... then.... the phase of the moon changes with the next batch of gunk, and everything is the other way round and upside down! Gotta love them listers......
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: buickanddeere on January 29, 2016, 05:33:53 AM
  When rebuilding the injection pump in my PHW1 Krisler Petteroid. A 8mm pump element and nozzle from a PJW1 was used. The idea is to inject the same amount of fuel but shorten the injection event duration. To have all the fuel in the combustion chamber with less piston travel down the bore than a 7mm element would.
  Sadly the project is under the bench. Just spent enough $$$ on a snowmobile today to have rebuilt, balanced and blueprinted the Petteroid.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on January 29, 2016, 09:07:45 AM
Hi B&D,

Agreed, the larger bore pump will give a greater percentage of fuel injection sooner in the power stroke - This will improve the usable burn due to a slower burning fuel, ie higher viscosity etc - the danger is getting too much of a knock developing when running on the more "approved" fuels. The listers are pretty forgiving in this area due to the low bearing loading on the big end, but too much is too much.... I am trying to find an 11 or 12mm element, but the locals just dont really know too much or are unwilling to look beyond the spoonfed catalog... Really frustrating!

It would be interesting to see a graph of injection volume vs piston displacement or iv vs crank rotation for the two IP bores.... now if we could tie that up to a prony brake with some accoustic/optical/thermal measurement devices and do some practical playing to work out a relationship between exhaust clarity/knock/power/temperature output measurement with varying grades of fuel.......hmmmmm...... oops.... one thing missing from the equation.... time to do it all... :(

Keep it spinning.....

Regds
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: 38ac on February 01, 2016, 04:17:00 PM


 do you know offhand if there are 11, 12, or 13mm elements available? My local guys get a glazed look when I ask for anything even remotely out of the ordinary...they swore blind that a 10mm element didn't exist, even when I dangled it in front of their probosci....

By and large, so far, my playing leads me to the following relationship, albeit very general and maybe over simplified:
Lower revs - you can go down in element size
Better fuel, or fuel with a higher cetane - go down in size
Lower quality fuel, or fuel with a lower cetane - go up in size.
Higher revs than rated....... don't go there....
But, if you go down in revs and down in cetane/fuel quality, element will probably be OK as standard!

In playing with the bigger bore elements, do you recall if there were any cam differences specd as far as travel etc?

Keep it pumping....

Regds
Ed

PS - I will admit, governor response does seem better with the larger element, so maybe its not my imagination....Lol...

PPS - design spec for me was 4 to 5 kw average - 4.4kw on diesel sump gunk yields medium volumes of black smoke, the same on petrol sump gunk yields grey to dark grey smoke, the same again on pure dino yields a light grey to clearish... but.... the sump gunks burn with less knocking and don't smell as bad as dino.... then.... the phase of the moon changes with the next batch of gunk, and everything is the other way round and upside down! Gotta love them listers......


Ed,
as far as I know the elements range from 6 to 10MM in .5mm inncriments.
Butch
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 01, 2016, 10:24:02 PM
Hi Butch,

Thanks for the info, by my searching and blank stares received down this part of the world, I kinda guessed it may be the case.... Would be nice to go up one size and see what the beast does....

I have been playing heatex games the last couple of days, I am finding that my heat store gets up to almost cylinder head temp and my cooling system starts to work overtime to try and keep the temp down. I have made up a bypass thermostat for the coolant heatex so that once the store gets to temp, the coolant heatex will be bypassed and isolated from the store to stop the store from back feeding heat into the coolant system...  hopefully I will get a chance to fit it tomorrow... the day temps have been 35 to 40C in the shade here, lately... and we are not even into the hottest part of the year supposedly for this area... certainly a crash course in cooling system design and beta testing... if it works now, it should work throughout the year.

Interestingly, I have found a soapy deposit forming on the inside of the coolant pipe works, it appears to be due to a too high concentration of PEG possibly.... I found it while I was re-plumbing the head coolant exit, I removed the outgoing elbow and installed a T... the end of the T now holds a temperature switch from a radiator so the electric fan responds way quicker than before, previously the temp switch was used on the top of the radiator, that one now controls a small upper fan on the radiator, it only kicks in when the radiator itself hits 80C... seems to work quite well...

Anyways, again I ramble...

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: buickanddeere on February 01, 2016, 11:42:49 PM
There were some very informative pages on smokestack or somewhere with all the various Lister, petter and numerous other engine's injector body , injector tip, pump body and pump element info.
   I'll look for it if I don't forget.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 02, 2016, 09:40:19 AM
Thanx B&D, Much appreciated!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: 38ac on February 02, 2016, 12:59:30 PM
Lots of information on Peter Forbes pages,
 http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/front.htm (http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/front.htm)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 03, 2016, 01:44:58 PM
100 000 + hour engine anybody? http://www.wcaeaps.com/machining/ (http://www.wcaeaps.com/machining/) .... Enough said...
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: 32 coupe on February 03, 2016, 08:42:33 PM

You missed all the fun with that guy !


Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 03, 2016, 09:21:13 PM
Hey 32,

Don't worry... its a small world... word gets round...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on February 04, 2016, 01:42:57 AM

From the Prices page:

"This complete single cylinder power system is only $29,995.00"

30K for what could only be a 6Kw System at best.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!   That guy NEVER fails to deliver a laugh!  You could buy a name brand Gen set here like a CAT or similar producing a lot more than 6 KW and would last a lot longer than any single Cyl setup no matter what the claims.

I would love to know how many engine/ gen sets this guy has actually sold and what the return rate was of engines that didnt' make the 100K hours.

The about page is Quite a Hoot.  http://www.wcaeaps.com/about.html    Shows a picture of a man that really inspires trust!  :0)

He seems to monitor this site pretty thoroughly  so expect anything mentioned to quickly change or disappear.   :0)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 04, 2016, 10:25:56 AM
Hi Guys,

Right, so some time ago, I installed a fuel line pre-heater wicking off heat from the CS plug to a brass bar, the injector line flowed into the bar and has a short stub connecting it to the injector inlet....

At the time, the "jury was deliberating" regarding the effectiveness of the heating of the fuel in the injector just prior to injection. The injector temp rose by some 20 to 30 degrees from previous with this thingus installed. Performance was found to vary... Effectivity has found to vary... Carbon and smoking after/during running has found to vary... Fuel consumption has been similar with little variance...

Now, bear in mind, the fuel I am using varies... does the pre-heater help? Possibly...? Does it make a marked difference and is it worthwhile for everybody? ... Probably not! (But it was a fun idea to play with!)

What I have found is that for general running, I semi disconnect it from its heat source and things work ok for me. If I get a difficult batch of gunk, sometimes, but not every time, if I reconnect the heat source it improves matters marginally.... Connecting and disconnecting the heat source is the difference between clamping the bar tightly to the CS plug or loosening it... Quick and easy...

It does add a variable to the box of tricks with burning sump gunk, so for me it is marginally worthwhile and sometimes does allow me to get through a difficult tankful without having to drain and re-blend...

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: buickanddeere on February 04, 2016, 06:55:45 PM
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Bryce/Bryce4.htm
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 05, 2016, 10:13:33 AM
Thanks B&D,

Stuck away in your treasure trove of info, you don't perhaps have Bosch/Mico info too?

Cheerz
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 05, 2016, 12:17:38 PM
Hey Guys,

Here's an interesting one for you...well, it was a minor problem on my side anyway, and how I got around it....

On my cogen setup, the circ pump for hot water is powered by the engine itself, this is not coolant for the engine, but water heated by the exhaust exchangers mainly. The pump is electrical, running direct off the genhead. When the gen is shut down, the water stops circulating, and, hence, hot water pressure is minimal... Enough for a slow running sink, but not for showers etc.

To sort out this minor dilemma, I re-purposed a microwave timer - the el-cheapo "analogue twisty turny" one... This controls a relay to the hot water pump from within the house now.... If you want a shower and there is enough heat in the heat store, but the gen is off.... set to timer to 10 minutes and hit the showers, it switches the pump across to utility (or inverter) power for a short duration...

(A side benefit, if you connect your work light at the engine to the pump circuit, when you need to go outside in the dead of night to go start the beast or investigate a problem, no torches are needed!)

Keep it flowing....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 05, 2016, 08:42:40 PM
Hi Guys,

More of 'The devil makes work for idle hands'.....

I haven't been too happy with the cc breather valve of late, possibly its my imagination, but I have seen a few minor oil seeps here and there since I cooked the big end bushing... Maybe they were there before, or maybe I am getting tired of shining the paintwork, but it pretty much boils down to me actually having a fun time trying to top off the oil every now and then... Since the starter motor was installed, the geography between engine and gen head has become a little over populated... The previous breather and extension tube was probably working OK, but it was a little short and just a tad small in diameter for easy pouring into... As usual, the old saying, 'go big or don't go' kicked in and I quickly knocked this filler/breather up out of some bitso shitso I had lying around... it is all pretty much repurposed, so don't laugh too loudly (I have sensitive hearing and can hear across oceans) .... The upright is 1.5" gate pipe, the valve is an old 1.5" non return valve with the spring return removed, the cover is an old brass basin outlet that has been looking for a useful purpose in life since retirement.... http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 CC Breather Mk2 20160205 (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 CC Breather Mk2 20160205)

Interestingly, the pipe length, coupled with the weight of the stopper in the valve, coupled with the resilience of the valve seat, coupled with the pipe diameter, coupled with the phase of the moon,Venus and the sun, added up to spot on the resonant frequency of the whole shebang... It is the first time I have heard an engine run with the breather pipe resonating and making more noise than the whole rest of the engine, exhaust included.... To stop this resonance, I first added a spring back into the valve, to no avail... I then threaded the guide on the valve inner and added a M6 nut to limit the opening of the aperture, this can be adjusted to hold the valve closed, or  adjusted to allow it to travel to wide open. At 750rpm, when the phase of the moon is just right of course, all I need is about 3 to 5 mm of opening to keep the crankcase nice and empty of air.... Resonance now gone! This is the first time in history that I have had to tune a crank breather... Exhaust and inlet manifolds... done plenty.... breather...just one!

Keep it tuning....

Regds
Ed

PS.... TM2's replacement flywheel arrives tomorrow... this will be interesting....

PPS... on another subject... way off track from the current train of thought... I recall seeing on my injector pump(Botch unit, 034) ...on the riveted on nameplate, it is marked  "9 deg BTDC"... Has anybody noticed this before? And if you have, what does this timing pertain to... any guesses? (Incidentally, TM2 has an identical pump, exact same markings....)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: buickanddeere on February 07, 2016, 05:53:49 PM
  I was under the impression that a lot of injection systems while built by different companies. They tend to build under license a same/similar known proven design instead of re-inventing the wheel.
  I'll do some more research.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 07, 2016, 09:31:57 PM
Thanks B&D,

Much appreciated!

What an interesting weekend it has been... (You do remember the ancient Chinese curse, of course) .....

TM2's replacement flywheel arrived yesterday, carefully stowed in the boot of a car, on soft mats, luxury transport for a large, almost 100kg lump of cast iron... It was shrink wrapped and I unsealed it myself, after personally unloading it... The outer surface looked beautiful, one of the best castings I have seen on the roids, way better than TM1's and way better than TM2's original flywheel. I strung it up on the hoist and put it onto the balancing axle... What a letdown it was.... The flywheel was transported and lying on its inner face when I unloaded it, hidden between Terra transport/firma was evidence of less than skilled removal from the donor roid.... It looks like someone has used a 4lb hammer and smacked the inner face of the flywheel to try and shift it from the crank... Pics here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 Replacement Flywheel 20160207 (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 Replacement Flywheel 20160207)

Now the dilemma... It still rings like a bell when tapped, although the rim is chipped and distorted in places by the hammer blows... It seems to be in reasonably good balance, there is little in the way of surface filler that is readily visible... but... should I accept it as is, dents and chips etc, or do I request a replacement that hasn't been abused by careless and negligent dismounting? (Or maybe I am just full of sh!t and I should just turn a blind eye)

Let's see what tomorrow brings, maybe my mood will improve and it will look better in the light of a new day...Lol...

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: BruceM on February 07, 2016, 10:14:07 PM
Maddening situation, Ed.  I'd be ticked off, myself.  It would seem they had a gorilla with a hand sledge removing the flywheels.  Hopefully Gary or Butch can address the potential safety issue.



Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: TxBlacksmith on February 07, 2016, 10:53:18 PM
Is it just me, I cant access the pics again...timeouts or bad DNS for http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private  >:(
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 08, 2016, 08:12:40 AM
Hi Guys,

Internet went down for a few hours this side.... Hence my servers off line... They are back up and running, but the lines are a bit dodgy at the mo' .... Apologies...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on February 08, 2016, 09:14:55 AM

No way in hell I'd be accepting that!

What's so hard about sending you a new unit hat hasn't had the shit belted out of it?
The chips and mushrooming is bad enough but the thing is you don't know what internal fractures or cracks may have occurred.  They may take years to show up but when they do, look out!!!
The unit has been grossly mishandled and that is reason enough to send it back and get one that has not been abused by a moron with no idea of what they are doing or respect for machinery.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 08, 2016, 09:47:42 AM
Hey Guys,

If kept, the minimum that would be required would be skimming of all rim faces, removal of outer coating, ultrasounding and magnaflux inspection. Way out of the budget....

Or.....

I have a 6000rpm electric motor here somewhere..... This could be a good one for Mythbusters....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselgman on February 08, 2016, 04:37:16 PM
I concur... due to the unknown character of Indian cast-iron and the hammering and cracking/spalling damages caused around that rim I would reject that one for safety concerns. Ringing the item is a very good test for cracks in a forging like a crankshaft, perhaps less so in that cast flywheel.

I would not trust it.

dieselgman
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: 38ac on February 08, 2016, 05:03:12 PM
It's junk in my book,,,
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: 38ac on February 08, 2016, 05:08:01 PM
  I was under the impression that a lot of injection systems while built by different companies. They tend to build under license a same/similar known proven design instead of re-inventing the wheel.
 

They are,, and they did.
I use Bosch elements, racks and delivery valves to repair C.A.V., Bryce, MICO and of coarse OEM Bosch pumps and injectors.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 12, 2016, 05:24:09 PM
Hey Guys....

Alright, I confess... I am lazy.... but you all knew that anyway...

How to get away from oiling the valve train V1.....

I have a tiny bit of blow by on TM1, nothing serious, but enough to give a light oiling to the side of the engine block, enough to feel oily, darken the paintwork slightly after a 8 hr run, but that's about it...  Not having any old socks to use productively, I have cobbled a manifold together out of an old petrol filler neck from a VW beetle to redirect the few vapours there are into the opening for the injector in the rocker cover... May as well get the last bit of use out of them before they end up in the atmosphere .....

How's that for being a stingy bugger... Too mean to spend a teaspoon full of oil to keep things from squeaking.... Lol...

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 15, 2016, 09:35:18 AM
Hi Guys,

A minor report back for those interested....

Oil pyroliser/boiler...

I installed a mini oil still on the first bend of TM1's exhaust - It consists of a mini "steel flask" with about 100-200ml capacity and a 10mm dia x 100mm long brass "wick" traveling down the center of the down section of exhaust, in the main exhaust gas flow. By and large, regardless of how deep it is lowered into the exhaust flow, there is just not quite enough heat to be collected by the primitive exchanger design. A better, more efficient exchanger would work, but not in the space confines I have available. The "hassle factor" for cleaning exhaust carbon off the outside and residue from the inside means that the unit has to be very simple and easy to strip/clean - this unfortunately also lends itself to inefficiencies as the wick and outer has to be smooth with no finning...

It does come quite close to vaporizing the oils, lighter fractions up to about top level diesel are boiled off after a while and have been collected en masse with parrafins and the like, but the slightly heavier oils fail to vaporize fully (efficiently?)... Temperature maxes out at about 250C or so, maybe 300 (so there are possibilities).... I will I think, relegate this little toy to "later on when I have more time" status for further playing... (Or until I brew up a batch of rotgut.... hmmm.... 2 tots of Ole Lister with a dash of soda please......)

Keep it cooking!!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: Tom on February 15, 2016, 05:30:02 PM
A vacuum will lower the temps needed.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: billswan on February 15, 2016, 06:43:31 PM
great thinking TOM!!

If eddee had a vacuum pump hooked to the roid and also upped the load on the alternator so as to maximize exhaust temps it just might work.

Maybe use some of the power to preheat the oil.

The cleanup is going to be messy though.

Billswan
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on February 16, 2016, 03:06:51 AM

You need to hit 300oC + to get the oil to crack properly.

I really think the exhaust gas thing is more trouble than it's worth.  Just build an oil fired burner and heat it up that way. Much easier and quicker and a lot less stuffing round.
The size of the evaporator you are talking about isn't going to even last a day before it fills with carbon. The output you are going to get from a 200Ml vessel before it clags is probably going to be less than 10L. Then there is the thing of how you are going to feed it? If you are doing batches you'd want to do 20L to make it worthwhile. If you are going to do continous you would have to work out some sort of elaborate metering system.

I just got a keg, 3 parts filled it with oil, lit a fire under it and boiled the thing. Was quite stable once set up and I was happy to walk away from it while I did other jobs around the yard while it did it's thing. I located it so if it all went up in smoke, no big deal. It gave a useful amount of output for each run and cleaning required no more than banging out the powdery black carbon.  ( although putting water in the thing with a bit of soap and washing it out was a lot less dusty and that's not stuff you want blowing around getting on anything.

Some of these ideas while seeming efficient in practice are just too complicated, expensive or otherwise impractical to be bothered with in reality.

One of the flawed mantras in Veg oil for vehicle fuel is to have the oil hot as possible before entering the IP.  It's a rater illogical and poorly thought out idea but one that many people who can't think for themselves blindly adhere to.  A Sub flaw of that idea is to heat the oil with exhaust heat rather than the normal coolant in a HE method.  The double mistake in this is people crap on about getting the oil too hot and that exhaust temps can go over 500oC and the oil will over heat. 

Yeah? really?  Then you try and do that.
I did and soon discovered that this is another crock of ship people go on with.  In order to get the oil to even 80 O which is the supposed holy grail toil temp, You have to build a real decent HE on the exhaust. I tried the obligatory internet HE, Coiled copper line, and even a dozen wraps right near the turbo barely warmed the oil flow. By the time you put enough wraps on the exhaust or made a more efficent heater, one is far better off just using the existing method of Coolant powered HE's. 
Another flaw in the exhaust theory is overheating. In fact there is a lot of latitude in the oil anyway.  When the vehicle is stationary or in city driving, there is less heat in the exhaust. On the highway the fuel demand is more so the flow through the HE is faster giving it less time to transfer the heat. In actual fact I think an exhaust heater could be made to work quite well.... If you wanted to much around with it for a useless concern anyway.  :0)

Here's one of my burners. More than enough grunt for the job and with an excellent turn down ratio for when the thing is up to temp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y7F0FTAvLI
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 16, 2016, 05:55:09 AM
Hey Tom, Bill and Glort,

I have a vac pump or 3 plus etc but don't want to use them for this app... My main interest was to see if I could still or crack the oil on a "micro" basis using the simplest means possible... Exhaust gas is exiting at about 350 to 500C depending on load, but the setup I am trying out just doesn't have the balls to collect and scavenge quite enough of the available temp to boil the oil. I can go to a more elaborate exchanger, but the problems with cleaning fins etc become an issue that I don't want to get involved in.

It was worth a try, if for nothing else, an indicator of what is required should I decide to take it further...

Glort, I agree pretty much entirely with your summation and opinions, but I also do think that the exhaust gas heat scavenging could be useful on a micro basis for oil cracking.... It would be nice to throw gunk into the monster and know that the gunk is being turned into champagne while it runs... To clean out a small crock of crap after every run or three is a lot better than tearing down to do rings etc because of the wear... I would only be looking to still off about 2 to 3L per hour, at most about 5... This will take care of the running with a little extra for reserve... Viewed in that light, it might change your opinion of the process I am investigating...

For me, a WMO/WVO burner would be overkill presently, even a really small one... the only reason I would look at a burner now, would be to use on my oil cooking machine which is electrically operated and heated... I am, however, currently doing trials on fuel that is not de-watered and boiled pre storage... so far it looks reasonable, the only process I am using is cold filtering with a sock filter on one pass, with 24hr minimum settling pre usage.....This is a much lazier and less messy way for me, should the lifespan of the IP element etc match previous or come close to it, I would tend to stick to it... Time will tell though, I am keeping full records to make a comparison.... Of interest though, when diesel WMO or Petrol WMO is hot dewatered, they burn very similarly as fuel... When cold processed, ie filtered, settled and used, there seems to be a marked difference in performance between the two as a fuel from a carbon as well as a power POV...

Regarding fuel preheating - If it was arctic conditions, I think it would make a difference, but here where I am, the difference is minimal and probably more psychological than actual...

Glort, I like your burners, particularly the simplicity and ease of construction....one of the things I noticed on a few of your vids was the amount of back flame you were getting on the open tubes close to the burner nozzle and the "buzz bomb" rattle as it lights off... Have you tried a conical inlet to the burner tube? Kind of like the cup on a rocket engine... Just thinking out loud....

Cheerz
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: buickanddeere on February 16, 2016, 03:09:34 PM
The NG, propane , butane etc liberated from the distillation process posses a explosion hazard.  It would be. Shame to loose all the btu
'S from those clean burning gasses.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: Tom on February 16, 2016, 05:24:47 PM
True on the explosion issue, but it can be burned as it is produced too. Perhaps some insulation or refractory cement would raise temps enough.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 17, 2016, 08:35:48 AM
Hi Guys,

B&D: Very much agreed regarding the gas generation - Not a problem in this instance though - the area is WELL ventilated, no sumps or similar for accumulation of heavy gasses nor is there eave areas for the lighter gasses either, so it is pretty much impossible.... While the area is "enclosed", it has about 25% opening all round on 3 sides with plenty of turbulence created by some big spinning wheels....

Tom: The entire "crucible" is pretty much in the exhaust, with just the top bit with delivery pipe outside of the exhaust casing... I tried insulating the top with some fiber insulation - it did raise the temp a bit, but not enough.... The setup just doesn't have quite enough surface area to collect enough energy from the exhaust gas flow vs losses vs the volume of oil being processed in the bowl. I can make the bowl smaller, but it is already pretty minuscule at present, so that is not worthwhile. To increase the efficiency of energy collection I would have to increase the surface area of the outer of the bowl by adding fins, also not an option because carbon buildup would be a problem.... Kinda snookered!

As soon as I have finished doing the mods to TM2, I think I might just go the "GlortBurner" route to crack the gunk... Lets see what pans out... The mini-still, meanwhile, is about to be re-designed in stainless steel for distilled water production... There is plenty enough heat for that and DW is always handy to have around, particularly with my track record of projects.... If I don't stick a screwdriver through my hand or similar on each project, the thing wont work... It seems as if the level of blood loss is directly related to success of project.... Kinda surprised I still have all my appendages attached....  :embarassed:

Keep it cooking...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on February 17, 2016, 12:13:17 PM
Hey Tom, Bill and Glort,I would only be looking to still off about 2 to 3L per hour, at most about 5... This will take care of the running with a little extra for reserve... Viewed in that light, it might change your opinion of the process I am investigating...

Yes, that makes the picture clearer.  That said, 2 things come to mind.
The first is you are trying to pyrolise the same amount of oil as you are burning per hour.  I apologise for being too tired and mentally drained right now to do the research and the math but the thought that arises is how much heat is there in the exhaust and is it enough to boil the amount of oil you want with the sort of efficiency that would be practical?  Perhaps it would take a smarter man that I to work it out but there is 10 Kw of energy of every litre of oil and I believe about 33% of that will be last as heat. how much in the exhaust i'm not sure. Also not sure how much energy is required to boil a liter of oil.  Before you go too far into this you may want to work out if the numbers add up to start with. If they do, I would guess you would need at least a 50% energy excess to account for the inevitable losses and inefficiency.

IF those numbers add up then you are going to need to come up with a HE that can attain the efficiency you are looking for AND be easy to clean.  I would suggest something that you can replace with a clean unit and swap them over as you rather than have to take your genny off line or need it to be done before startup. May be a lot easier to have a bunch of th units so you can batch clean them.  Maybe something where you just throw them all into a fire and then knock out the ash which would be preferable to getting carbon black wafting around.


Quote
Of interest though, when diesel WMO or Petrol WMO is hot dewatered, they burn very similarly as fuel... When cold processed, ie filtered, settled and used, there seems to be a marked difference in performance between the two as a fuel from a carbon as well as a power POV... 
  What do you consider hot and cold processing Ed?

In summer as I am now I don't heat my oil at all. The pump I use for circulating it does and the black drum sitting in the sun don't hurt either but you are still looking at under 50o C.
In winter I tend to unleash the burners on the drum and run it up to a max temp of 75o C.  this is over the recommended temp of my pump  but so far, so good.  And so far has been many thousands of litres of oil.
75 is as hard as I dare push but it is clear the dewatering takes place quick at this temp especially as the ambient air temp can be 60o cooler.  I find having the oil temp above that of ambient allows for faster drying and the hotter the oil the better it works... To a point anyway.  If I take the oil to 75, time it cools to say 30 which it will tend to sustain thanks to the heat from the pump will be a few hours at least and thats good enough for any " Normal"  oil.

Now the other way people dry their oil is by boiling.  Again, done many thousands of litres of oil that way when I would help a friend make bio. With teh power of one of my early and lower power burners, we could take a drum of oil from 25 to boiling in 17 Minutes.  I reckon I could do it faster now by placing 3 drums in a triangle shape and using them to increase the surface area of flame contact especially if I threw a lid over the top to stop the flame escaping upward.

Boiling the water off was a good method for bio production as we wanted the oil at 50 anyway. The interesting thing about this is it's hard to get the oil temp to go over about 120 while there is oil in it.  It will boil like buggery but pretty much sustain temp.... Till the water has gone then it calms down and the temp shoots skyward quickly.  It takes a long time for a 200L drum of oil to come down from 210+ to 50 no matter what you do to it.
We discovered tipping undried oil into it is a process that needs to be done carefully as free water in the boiled oil becomes a cause for great concern.  We did once use a 30 Plate flat HE to pump hot oil out and cold oil in for efficiency.  It worked well but the chance of boiling oil leaking or melting a hose was not worth it to us.

I have never done a Boiled oil Vs. low temp air evaporated oil test.  Personally, I'd tend to think the one that had the lowest moisture content would be the winner regardless if the oil was hot or cold processed.
Water in oil is a real power killer.

Quote
Regarding fuel preheating - If it was arctic conditions, I think it would make a difference, but here where I am, the difference is minimal and probably more psychological than actual...

Couldn't agree more.  If the oil is flowing through the lines and you are using a mechanical pump of known reliability such as a rotary or inline, you're sweet.

Quote
Glort, I like your burners, particularly the simplicity and ease of construction....one of the things I noticed on a few of your vids was the amount of back flame you were getting on the open tubes close to the burner nozzle and the "buzz bomb" rattle as it lights off... Have you tried a conical inlet to the burner tube? Kind of like the cup on a rocket engine... Just thinking out loud....

Do you mean on the spray type burners?  I actually prefer the drip style and use them much more.
I have been thinking about cones and shaped burners for a long time but haven't found anything yet although I agree conical shapes may be beneficial in a few ways. I really like the classic coke bottle shape and have been wondering how I could get that. Was thinking casting it in refractory or ceramic  and then burning out the bottle when it was done.

As for explosion hazard, this is non existent as long as the vessel you are pyroing the oil in contains less oxygen than what is required for the vapors to burn and the area in which it is cooked is ventilated.
In bio circles the overly pedantic and lacking in knowledge would go on about all sorts of over the top explosion prevention systems like using enclosed motors and special spark proof switches.  The overcomplication and expense many went to was a huge face palm.
My solution was a little easier.  Open a window or door on one side of the shed and put an ordinary household fan on high on the other. Of course many still carried on with a lot of rubbish but I offered a genuine $100K for anyone that could get any sort of light off if they did that using anything resembling a normal bio setup.  I even did a demo ( now lost) with an open bowl of Methanol  and throwing lit matches and sparklers around it.  Wasn't till I landed one in the 4L of meth you could get it to ignite and not even always then reliably.  When it did light, there certainly wasn't anything like an explosion.

All you have to do is  keep the air well circulating and there are simply not the essential elements in place that are needed for a fire, explosion or any other sort of feared, violent ignition.



[/quote]
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 17, 2016, 02:27:27 PM
Hey Glort,

You are not far wrong, I want to be able to crack just a little in excess of what I am using - The numbers do add up, even when I take the downstream exhaust gas energy and capture that(or part thereof) in the hot water exchanger. The problem I have, which is not insurmountable on a new build, but very difficult on a retrofit, is that of lack of space on the system as it now stands. A larger and more spacey exchanger looks like the way to go, I will look at allowing this space on the TM2 build when I get round to doing it....

Hot process for me is raising the temp to around 120C, cold is at STP, around 25C - with Petrol WMO and cold processing, there seems to be possibly a few more volatiles remaining, this allows the oil to burn a bit easier by the looks of it. When hot processed, these volatiles(Probably mostly RUG) get boiled off (around 90 to 95C if I remember correctly) leaving just the heavier oils behind....

Yep, it was the spray burners I was looking at... Take a trip to the local scrappies and see if you can find an old 4 into 1 from a big bike or 2-stroke exhaust from a small bike - They both have similar entry angles, 13 degrees seems to spring to mind... Might make an interesting 4-nozzle burner out of the big one.... 4 heat settings too!! Another thing that just struck me.... A nozzle off an old fire hose would make a nifty end for the burner "injector"... The angle in the inside lends itself to laminar flow and acceleration... Would reduce your "irregular feathering" of the fuel mix on the spray and might just give a marked improvement... Worth a try I reckon, would certainly be interesting... The nozzle size might be a bit problematic, but if it works big, you could always make a downsized version....(Or a flame thrower if you turned the air down a bit)....


Anyways...Enough rambling from my side... Time to do some more work...

Cheerz
Ed



Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on February 18, 2016, 01:38:10 AM

Hot process for me is raising the temp to around 120C, cold is at STP, around 25C - with Petrol WMO and cold processing, there seems to be possibly a few more volatiles remaining, this allows the oil to burn a bit easier by the looks of it. When hot processed, these volatiles(Probably mostly RUG) get boiled off (around 90 to 95C if I remember correctly) leaving just the heavier oils behind....


You are basically boiling the water out of the oil then.

At that sort of temp, You could take off the vapors with a sealed lid on the drum and an outlet pipe. Just like pyroing the oil, if you bubbled the output through a water column, the water would condense back into the water and the lighter fuel elements would also condense and sit on the top of the water where you could  draw them off and put them back into the then dried oil

It's going to be pretty hard to seperate the water from the fuel fractions temp wise because both elements ate not absolute. You'll get water vapor well before 100 as you will with the fuel vapours.  Once condensed they won't mix though and that's how I'd do it.

I use alcohol in my water injection system on the truck to give it a bit of a hurry up. Cheapest way I have found to buy the alcohol here is to buy E-85. Supposedly 85% booze, 15% petrol.
All I have to do to separate the 2 out is to add water.  If I start with a half drum of e 85 and top it off with water, a clear line forms between the 2 elements. I can draw the water ethanol mix off from the bottom and leave the petrol on top.  I usualy do a couple of fills this way till I have about 50% petrol then I drain that down or pump from the top. Makes excellent small engine fuel because now with all the alcohol gone, it's not hygroscopic any more and drop water into the fuel system.  Also raises the boiling point for when I blend the stuff which mans I don't get vapor lock as easily as when using other petrol which all has some alcohol content here.

I like the bike exhaust idea and saw the 2 volt light come on in my head as soon as you mentioned it. Bike exhausts have some great cones and trumpets in them! I'll start ringing round and see what I can come up with.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 18, 2016, 08:26:33 AM
Hey Glort,

The vapour capture wont be an easy one for my boiling tank as it stands, there are just too many vents to take care of...Maybe mark II later on perhaps? The lighter volatiles arent really a problem for me, I can always zap it up with an additive like RUG or similar should I need... The water has been my main concern in the past...

I am looking at stilling the oil and condensing to try and remove as many non liquid contaminants as I can - Filters/IP elements and the like cost in the long run... Water can be separated quite easily after boiling off. One of the main reasons I want to still the gunk off is to see if the product still is high in ash content, I think it would reduce dramatically.... Being the lazy ass that I am, the fewer bits I can do to the oil, the better for me!...

Aha! 2 volt Light globe.... Lead Acid cell is 2 volts isn't it? That puts you in your metallic years..(Silver in the hair, gold in the teeth and lead in the ass..) ... Now, that also leads me to believe you were from the 60's.... A good bit of acid around then...Lol

We got one mother of a thunderstorm approaching here now, I better get offline and unplug network cables....

Keep it sparking!!

Cheers
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 20, 2016, 07:01:19 AM
Hi Guys,

On another note....

I have been taking note of a peculiarity lately... Maybe its just imagination, maybe it is happening to others as well..

I run TM1 for between 3 and 7 hour shifts on a daily basis, what I have noticed is that for the first 2 or slightly more hours, he makes good power and holds voltages well.... anytime thereafter, he gets a bit lazy and needs a bit of water down the snout to clean up the rings and clear up a bit of blow by/smokey exhaust... after that, away he goes for the rest of the run, generally with no problems regardless of whether its another 4 to 5 or more hours even...

Now, here's the interesting bit... if I run him for short runs during the day, up to 2 or so hours at a stretch, the carboning doesnt seem to be a problem....

Ideas? Anybody else have similar?


Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: buickanddeere on February 20, 2016, 08:37:09 PM
  if old bessy is carboning up that quick. There is something fundamentally amiss.
  The fuel injection should be a finer mist via higher pressure, maybe advanced sooner and using warmer fuel. The combustion chamber temperature at the time of injection should be hotter. All the metal surfaces exposed to combustion should be hotter. 
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 20, 2016, 09:10:09 PM
Hi B&D,

I think you have hit the nail on the head with the atomisation remark... the tip on this injector is a tad suspect, pressure is OK, but I am sure the hole is a bit on the worn side... Not surprising, its got quite a few hours on sump gunk through it... I have got another tip, I will pop it in when I get a chance and see if it improves matters.... Also, this batch of oil has not been heated above 100C, so it might, in fact will, have a bit of water in it in suspension... That just complicates matters of course...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on February 21, 2016, 01:00:20 PM
.. anytime thereafter, he gets a bit lazy and needs a bit of water down the snout to clean up the rings and clear up a bit of blow by/smokey exhaust... after that, away he goes for the rest of the run, generally with no problems regardless of whether its another 4 to 5 or more hours even...

I got to say ed ( in the most constructive and well meaning way) the carboning nor the ring cleaning thing does not add up with me nor seem a realistic scenario.  I know we are running different oils but I have had enough experience with wmo and carbon and water to make me question the speed of the buildup and even more so, the removal thereof occurring that quick in the rings.  Myself, I just can't see it building up that quick unless the thing was Rolling coal like a steam train and if the rings were carboning up that quick, it's very much against my experience for them to be cleaned so fast.

The physical conditions are clearances of 100ths of an inch and while it would be easy for carbon to be deposited past the piston and scraped by the rings, it'a whole different ball game to getting that carbon out once it's there.
there are hundreds of PSI forcing it in, virtually zero to get it out.  My repeated experience with ring gumming or carbonizing is that it is a slow, enduring process and not something a single, even intense splash cures. It might make it a lot better, but it's a very gradual process of tens of hours and constant water application to remove.

I would tend to think rather than ring carbonizing being the problem it's more to do with injector fouling.  The physical conditions around and the properties of the injector in my feeble mind leave it much more open to rapid fouling or cleaning.  Frankly I still have my resevations it's the fuel alone that causes your problems but, it's much easier to foul or clean an injector by the physical conditions in the engine surrounding the injector than the rings.

Given the problems you are having being so regular and given you say the water helps so much. I really thing a constant water misting soloution would be well worth more than the time and expense to set up, which should be minimal.

For burner Fueling, I use a small 12V Fuel pump with a $7 timer board from ebay to control it. I can set the interval the pump operates and the duration.
What I would be doing would be having a pump squirt the water at very regular intervals into the intake of the engine.  From your setup it shouldn't be hard to put a failsafe on the pump like a take off on the oil pressure line to a switch ( yes, there are normally open oil pressure switches that will only switch on when there is oil pressure) or a relay on the gen side to activate the timer board.  You could use one of those 12V caravan pulse type pumps ( or a facet type fuel pump may be ok)  and squirt the water into the intake at short intervals, 30 sec or so at most. If the duration was 1 sec and you used a garden misting nozzle, you should be able to get an effective and constant water application to keep the engine clean at all times.

To prevent any problems, I'd turn the air cleaner elbow upside down so the engine had to draw in the water. That way even if the pump were firing and the engine was stopped, the water is just going to run out again.
I have also seen quite a few people firing water Onto the air filter elements so the water was virtually  evaporated before it was inducted to the engine. I have never tried this but if the filter could be kept wet at all times which would be easy to do, it might be very effective to  keep the engine clean but I imagine you would have to pretty much keep the max evaporation rate going at all times.

IF there is suspended water in the oil, Which I'm not entirely sure can happen with WMO, I would think it would help in this situation. It's only going to steam off in the cylinder the same as the WI would cause.
There may be a slight power loss but that's only when the thing is flat out. If that's how you run it you might notice it but if it has some reserve, I think the governor would compensate by just injecting more fuel.

There is a LOT to be said for repeated and frequent WI in my experience but I have deep reservations the rings are what is causing you the problems.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 21, 2016, 10:08:55 PM
Hey Glort,

I am pretty sure that the bulk of the cleanup from the WI takes place at precombustion chamber/injector tip level, as you have pointed out.. there is however, and I stand by it, a significant decrease in visible blow by after a water dose. Possibly the blow by is similar in volume after the cleanup to before, but the visible element changes. I suppose it could be a case of similar quantities of gas are making it past the rings, but in a better burnt state, hence a lower opacity, and giving the appearance of less blow by....?... Who knows?

Another factor to add to the equation is the possibility that, after a steam clean of the injector tip, better atomisation occurs, the burn is more efficient, the engine produced a bit more power for a given rack opening, the rack closes somewhat, less blow by due to the engine not working as hard possibly? Although, to produce the same amount of power for the given circumstance, there should be about the same amount of blow by evident, in volume certainly, but at a lower opacity.... so the first supposition kicks in as above... again... who knows?

I am running pretty much a constant water supply... It is plumbed in and only requires a stopcock be turned on to enable it. It has been put together in a manner that prevents the engine from being filled with water should it shutdown without shutting the tap first. I have a float bowl that has a constant water level below the centerline of the inlet manifold, where the water inlet nozzle resides, just outside of the valve stem per se... The engine draws in a coarse stream of water on each induction stroke, the amount of water inhaled is governed by the height of the level in the float bowl. To do a water "flood and flush" I simply choke off the inlet to the air cleaner with the palm of my hand. This causes an almost solid 1/8" dia stream to spray or be drawn into the inlet. As all of the piping is 1/8" dia from the float to the inlet, there is enough restriction of the water flow so that at full choke, other is little to no chance of hydro locking, this can only really happen at less than about 60 rpm, or maybe a bit less...

The air cleaner is an 'updraft' unit, so should there by any error, be water flow whilst stationery, the water will reverse flow out of the inlet manifold and drain from the air cleaner onto the paving, so that aspect is covered....

I have noticed that a saturated with water fuel burns with plenty of associated problems, as to why, I am not entirely sure, but my guess would be possible emulsification under high pressure. This would make it way difficult to light off, as the water changing state in close association with the fuel would drain heat required for ignition of the oil. Water inhaled separately through WI does not cause the same problems, as by my reckoning, there is more of a 'distance' between the fuel and the water/steam particles... possibly just my over simplistic view and reasoning, if you can give me a better explanation, I would love to hear it!

Water suspended in WMO is quite common, the worst I have seen is around 40%, yep, that right 20L out of 50L was boiled off to reclaim the base oil. Had I not done it myself, I would not have thought it possible. Fair enough, the oil in question looked like very milky coffee, but, nevertheless, it was something I witnessed myself. The oil was reclaimed from the RHS final drive of my Komatsu D62 dozer. Of a 50L total capacity, it required a ball hair under 20l to top it off once I boiled the water out. The oil in use was a straight 40w oil if I remember correctly... I could hardly believe it myself... Granted, the fuel oils I am using are nowhere near their saturation point, I would estimate, at max, around 500ml per 50l of oil, which is around 1% or probably less of water... not the end of the world as far as burning it goes, but plenty wet enough to allow acids in solution to start attacking IP innards and the like...

Anyways, again I ramble....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on February 22, 2016, 07:14:37 AM

Hi Ed,

Pretty much all you say makes sense to me and the bits you aren't sure about I agree with in the same way i think of myself although still somewhat believeing there has to be a better answer but right now that's all I have got!    ;D

Cleaning of the tip and a better atomisation makes sense to me.
I'm pretty much certain that heating the fuel with ambient temps above about 20oC for all practical purposes is useless. I also have great reservations about pressure increases in the injector.  A couple of months back I made a vid about  creating a flame thrower out of a Pressure washer. The one I picked up is rated at 3000 PSI and I am sure it does about half that on a great day. What I also noticed is that the spray pattern of water and Veg oil is as similar as my eyes can tell. I believe that the pressure is sufficent to overcome the higher viscosity of the oil so it reaches a point where it doesn't matter. I think myself that is probably what happens in Injectors and pumps. Diesel and oil are a lot closer than water and oil in that regard.

Years ago I did some pretty serious and factual research into the oil viscosity think with regard to heating, atomisation and endurance of injector pumps on vehicles.  I lost all the data a while after I finished in a computer crash but the upshot was that the IP's know to be effective on vehicles such as bosch inline and rotary types had a higher centistrokie ( pressure) rating than veg oil at 20 oC and lower.  In other words, they were quite happy with thicker veg oil and on the favored pumps, had a LOT of tolerance to go.  Heating or thinning the oil down to about 10oC in most cases was not only unnecessary but basically useless in the what the pumps and injectors were rated for.

Now I have not looked into the bosch/ Mico et al pumps used on listers but being a mechanical pump, I see no reason they should not have a tolerance window way above what we run them at on veg or engine oil.
I do think that the addition of other agents such as ULP or diesel helps ignition not through thinning the fuel which results in better atomisation, but rather those additives have a lower ignition point that wmo or wvo and cause the charge to light off more readily, probably initiating the flame for the other to light off from earlier.

Your water supply sounds excellent. With constant water I am really surprised you get any coking at all. I know you refer to your fuel as thick and cruddy but i think being you filter and dry it, its should be fine.
Why you get such rapid buildup seems odd.  Does the exhaust normally smolke a lot? I can't imagine it but I can't imagine why you get so much buildup in the first place no matter what you run especially with water.


Many people are terrified of hydro locking but I doubt many have any idea what it entails.  Engines will blubber and miss and spit long before they lock up. You would have to throw a LOT of water down a running engine to get it to lock up.

I have found the exact same thing as you regards to water in the fuel Vs. water injection.  Wet oil robs power.  Dry oil with WI increases power.  Only thing different is they arrive at the combustion chamber by different paths.  That said, if water which does not burn goes through the metering of the fuel pump and takes up some of the space the pump thinks the engine needs in fuel, then there will be less power available.  Mind you, I tend to think of water in amounts of 2-3% being wet, not 10% plus. I just wouldn't  put that in an engine at all. While wet oil ( as I think of it) dos reduce power, it may also do a lot of good to an engine which has buildup in various places. Bit of a tradeoff.

Your description of water suspended in oil is basically emulsified and not what I had in mind. I don't think you could get the creamy oil you spoke of by just tipping water into oil, it would have to be beaten in to blend it to that extent. If you had a drum of WMO and poured oil in it. I still maintain that it wouldn't be suspended like that. One thing though, when it is as emulsified you would know about it and what you had to do as well. :0)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselgman on February 22, 2016, 08:23:43 AM
Ever blown a head gasket on a water-cooled vehicle? That milky emulsification with the lube oil happens very easily and quickly in a running engine and I have seen and caused it to happen - (quite quickly) during water injection (through the inlet port), when the engine was not sufficiently loaded and heated up enough to flash it all directly to steam. I was a bit surprised and it IS a cautionary tale. Also, the fuel pump will have some trouble mechanically passing any amounts of water emulsified or not, (I am guessing that specific gravity differences of fuel vs water and the very tight mechanical tolerances within the pump plunger and barrel have a lot to do with it). Lubrication is a big issue for these things. It is hard to count how many seized pumps I have dealt with over the years. We go to great lengths to avoid any excess water or other contamination in fuel stocks. It may also be instructive to remember that the pump delivery is a fixed volume (at any given throttle setting) and only the engine governor repositioning the plunger rotation will change delivery rates.

Thanks for all the 'food for thought' in this discussion gents!

dieselgman
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 22, 2016, 09:12:16 AM
Hey Glort,

Ditto, ditto and ditto, to you too Gman!

I run the WI pretty much all the time - unless I am playing around with the "what if's" - Which is quite often for me....Lol... I cant resist sticking my fingers into whirly-twirly things...LOLOLOL...

With the cogen setup, using a "constant" orifice for the WI, as it is now set up, it is quite difficult to get it to the "really nice" level of flow.... Because I dont have 100% stable loading, engine temps change, WI has to follow suit... I have set it up to a fairly good average, it is about optimum for 2.5kw electrical output as it now stands, but I am looking for a KISS way of regulating it (A carb wont work, airflow is constant) ... All I can think of is an electrical type gubbins, solenoid controlled via load, regulating a small needle valve...  Way to complex to set up and put together... (Yep, I can design and build it, even make it 8051 controlled, but that all falls outside of the KISS box!)

Regarding smoking: I can push a maximum of around 4.8Kw as it now stands - But at 4.8 we are definitely getting into the black smoke area - The power output has dropped from its original, as new condition, but it is now in spec for the max I wanted. Originally I was looking at 4-5Kw max as designed and found it could do over 6 with good rings/cyl/etc... The auto switchover trips across at around 20A/230V, TM1 can drive this, but this is at or around max... What I have found, is that WI certainly does little at low power output and works better as the power demand increases. I havent had any oil emulsification in the sump as yet, surprisingly! But here's where the snowball gathers some weight....  As soon as there is any fouling of rings/injector/whatever, the power output capability drops, TM1 starts smoking, soot and carbon start building up quickly, the rack opens more, the snowball gathers momentum - Because the target load of 20A/230V isnt met for the switchover.... At this point, I notice the lights are dimming and go and shove a good boost of water down the snout.... The snowball resets to the top of the hill, waiting for the next nudge...

I am almost at the end of this load of gunk, only about another 10L or so left to burn off... I think I will do a few days or so on dino and see how it compares...

Keep it spinning!!

Regds
Ed

Edit:
PS - The reason why I am not getting sump oil emulsification is probably because of the "different" dipper and oil pickup I have installed - The dipper only touches to about 5mm of weir depth. All water collected in the crankcase, along with 30 or 40W non additive oil, drops into the lower sump and does not accumulate to the level of the pump pickup, which in my case has been lifted by about 15mm to allow for this... I actually forgot about mentioning it earlier among the mods I have done...

PPS - RUG - I am, on the next batch of sump gunk oil I use, going to thin with 5-10% RUG as opposed to 20% Dino - What I have noticed, is that when TM1 starts to foul up, the "diesel knock" all but disappears. When there is a "normal" amount of knock, things run fine and well. This indicates to me that the injector/precomp is fouling to a degree that the burn rate is retarding.... By addition of the RUG, with a more vivescent flame front, the fouling rate might decrease quite a bit - Bear in mind this is WMO - The rug will be added for burn rate modification and not viscosity reasons. Probably, as it now stands, with lower chamber temps et al due to the slower burning WMO, the carbon is fairly soft and sooty, hence the ease it is flushed away by a good snout watering... The higher temps etc associated with RUG blending might cause the carbon to deposit at a higher temp/pressure, proving more difficult to remove.... Who knows? .... Lets suck it and see!!!

PPPS - Diesel Knock - Just put the last 10L Sump Gunk into TM1 and started him up for a long cogen run - Estimated to be around 10-12hrs for today - What I have noticed, in comparison to last night's shutdown, the diesel knock is somewhat louder - Air temp is around the same, plus or minus 5 degrees different, only thing that is different is the temp of the unit itself - The last 10L of fuel has gone in to top off the day tank, it hasn't in any way reached or made it through the fuel filter yet... Comments anybody? Cold fuel, cold engine, better ignition? ... This kinda screws up theories big time! (Also, Ali piston, CI sleeve... Clearance is most when cold....?)

PPPPS - Breather Vapor and Sound - Just popped out to check out TM1 during his run - He has been running solid since around midday, now around 4pm - I saw the cc breather was giving off a bit of vapor, so I videoed a quick before and after a water dose. The water dose consisted of choking off the air intake a bit and allowing TM1 to inhale a bit of aqua - I sustained this for about 5 secs. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to see any vapour because of the bright light, but you will notice a distinct difference in sound from the CC breather between the 2 videos. The first video has a "hollow" resonance to it and the second is way less - even though with the second video, the camera is directly in the path and facing the vent "snorkel" ... Check it out here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 CC Breather Sound Before and After 5sec Water Dose 20160222 (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 CC Breather Sound Before and After 5sec Water Dose 20160222) Glort, I would love to hear your comments on this!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on February 22, 2016, 02:49:01 PM

I have long been a proponent of RUG in Veg oil and would do the same if I were running the black muck.   ;D

When I started in on the veg game over 11 years ago, I got a lot of people lambasting me saying that petrol was harder to light off than diesel  because it had a lower cetane rating etc.  To me this was just another load of idiotic and ignorant poppycock that people hear and just parrot over and over as if  there is no chance it can be in any way wrong.

As anyone that knows beans about engine knows, If you can get a SI engine to run at 12:1 you are way out there on the ragged edge.  Petrol will detonate long before that sort of compression is reached if you don't have the engine set up Very carefully.  How then people suppose that the same fuel is NOT going to light off very easily in an engine that does 16 or 20+ :1 defys logic and rational thought let alone practice.

I run RUG also not because of it's thinning properties which incidentally are way better than diesel, but because I believe and can demonstrate, that 5-10% RUG in veg advances the timing of ignition back closer to where it should be in an engine timed for Diesel which most road going vehicles are.  Very few people including myself every reset their timing for Oil because it's not an easy job for the backyard mechanic .  Instead of ajusting the engine timing, with RUG I can adjust the fuel timing and it's Cetane rating.

Many years ago when I first started and veg was a fairly new thing, Theroies  like I held for my 2 pet proclivities, RUG and WI, were perpetually ridiculed and laughed at by the ignorant and parrot voiced.
I did some tests in my W123 merc to put my money where my mouth was.  I took the fuel tank out of the car when I got it due to it being full of rubbish and in it's place I used to use 25L drums.  A benefit of this was I could test different fuel blends very easily just by swapping out the drum and driving the car a couple of KM to make sure the lines and filter was flushed out.

I tested the old girl in 0-60 KM ( I'd need the length  of a highway to get that ol thing up to 60 MPH)  With straight Diesel,  straight Veg, with 10% RUG in veg and with either fuel and WI.  The RUG blend averaged 3/4 of a second over 2 lots of 3 runs in both directions ( yeah, I flogged the old girl for a whole afternoon doing this)  over straight veg and within the limits of accuracy I could achieve to be the same as diesel.  Adding the WI also gave a 3/4 sec better time over any fuel.  Adding 50% Methanol to the water  gave 1.5 sec better on diesel and the RUG blend and nearly 2 sec faster on the straight veg run.  On diesel and RUG blends the thing was knocking a bit too much for comfort on the delivery rate I was running but in restricting the volume of WI, I got the same performance without knocking at all.

The one that surprised me the most was the increase in performance straight water gave me.  I was so surprised at the time I ran an extra series of runs after I did everything else and came up with teh same numbers.
The RUG blending which was very frowned upon by Vegges at the time also proved what the seat of my pants had told me for a long time.  3/4 of a sec is a big improvement on a car as slow as a OM 617  NA merc let me tell you. The 50% WI made it feel like a space ship.... although the slowest one ever in the known universe but a huge improvement.

The other thing proven to me probably 500 times over was how much easier the RUG made starting.  On straight veg down to o0C you could crank the thing till the battery was flat and the starter glowed red.  With 10% RUG,   it was  a few turns at best and off she went.  I still use RUG in my current vehicle in winter even though it will start on straight bveg in winter . The RUG makes it start easier and more importantly, all Cylinders light off straight away and thus the engine runs smoother.

Now, to bring all this ( hopefully interesting to someone) long winded waffle back to how clean the engine runs and lack of buildup, The answer is, I never tested for that.  I really purposed the RUG with easy starts and good running and the water with the cleaning and ran them bother together concurrently. The fact the engine will start better with it and have more power suggests to me the fuel is burnt more completely and the timing is closer to that of Diesel than with straight oil.  As such, I would expect a cleaner burn with less buildup.

Now as I recall Ed, and it's difficult to keep track of with all you have done, I seem to recall you saying you had adjusted the timing and you had tried RUG before albeit I can't remember the results you got.
You seem to suggest that you are looking for a timing advancement also and my thoughts as usual agree with your own that RUG will do this.  If you try it and it works then I would be looking at advancing the timing of the IP on the engine and then looking at perhaps going with a lower ratio of RUG.

MY tests in the vehicles I have had ( w123, Peugeot, Nissan TD42) suggests that it is beneficial to run 5% at all times up to a max of 15% in winter which here is down to 0 oC. When I started out I did run 20% for a long time but it was far too much and lead to problems with power loss and when the warm weather arrived, a lot of vapor locking.  Another tip for those that have not yet been inconvenienced.... DO NOT run an alcohol blend of RUG over 5% in anything but winter.  The alcohol has a 20oC lower boiling point than straight petrol and will vaporize at temps lower than most cars cooling systems and under bonnet temps especially after shutdown where the engine compartment can heat soak. You can get a LOT of vapor lock problems. Straight RUG avoids these problems. Here the base alcohol fuel is 10% blend and even that gives problems when mixed with 90% oil which I find amazing but unquestionable in it's effect.






Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 22, 2016, 03:30:04 PM
Thanks for the comeback Glort,

Much appreciated!!

Take a look at my PPPPS on my previous post... a bit of a strange one, as I agree with you that WI is beneficial more on a long term basis than short term iro ring groove carbon buildup...

I previously stopped using RUG blending because of the weather temp variances we experience and also due to the variances (and the associated knockiness) I was getting with the WMO. It looks like I will be going back to a RUG blend to modify timing, whilst staying with the WI to keep things clean...

I am going to, after today or tomorrow, go back to a straight DINO for a while to get another, current, base line to work from. Because of all the weird and wonderfuls I am putting thru the beast on such a regular basis while looking for the "magic bullet" I lose track of origin, which is not a good thing... Its difficult to go better if you dont know where you were at!!

Back to the PPPPS - was quite an interesting one, there was miniscule, if any, difference in rack opening between the before and after, also miniscule temperature difference in the workings too.... Also, because the squirt of aqua I delivered was not particularly lengthy, the before and after loads were pretty much identical. Not often I get a clean result and only one variable in a test... Was a nice change!!

Keep it slurping....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 22, 2016, 05:11:34 PM
Hey guys,

I think I have found an excellent way to decarbon an exhaust and am thinking of patenting it...

The patent title would be "Ferro Resonant Carbon Removal - Long Cylinders"

It entails the resonating at the frequency of the length of exhaust involved. I have found, that when resonated at its empirical frequency, a large part, in the region of 90%, if not more, of the carbon is separated from the inner surface of the cylindrical curve due to the differing resonant frequencies of the carbon deposits and the base metal it is adhering to.

Whilst longer cylindrical sections resonate at lower frequencies, lengths of up to 3m have been resonated successfully and the carbon has been dislodged, to be removed easily by introduction of high to medium velocity gasses as a method for dispelling this troublesome solid.

Methods employed should be based on a variable amplitude method. Start at a low amplitude and increase until the required results are attained. Starting at too low an amplitude has little structural effect on the carbon and cylinder, but starting with too high an amplitude can cause failure of structural integrity, particularly to the cylinder and especially to its couplings and mounting points.

Highly sophisticated resonators can be employed with excellent results.... They will, of course, be required to deliver sufficient energy to cause resonance of sufficient amplitude.....

Keep it clean....

Regds
Ed

PS - The best resonator I have found so far is a 4lb hammer.... beat the snot outa the pipe while the engine is running... the exhaust gas blows all the crap out too.....
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: mike90045 on February 22, 2016, 05:57:57 PM
......  PS - The reason why I am not getting sump oil emulsification is probably because of the "different" dipper and oil pickup I have installed - The dipper only touches to about 5mm of weir depth. All water collected in the crankcase, along with 30 or 40W non additive oil, drops into the lower sump and does not accumulate to the level of the pump pickup, which in my case has been lifted by about 15mm to allow for this... I actually forgot about mentioning it earlier among the mods I have done...........

I'm not sure how, with no/low splash, how the piston wrist pin (and the underside of the piston) an cyl walls get lube and cooling ?  I see you have an oil pump but does it get oil to all the areas needing it ?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 22, 2016, 06:20:53 PM
Hi Mike,

There is enough lube being splashed around, the inside case is dripping thoroughly after but a few secs... Also, there is evidence from crankcase temperature, that the lube is indeed getting to the hot bits, and plenty of it too.... the CC with this dipper, runs way warmer than the knife edge one... With the dipper only just breaking into the surface of the oil by a few mm, it seems not to agitate the lower reaches of oil in the upper weir too badly, hence no mixing of any condensed water droplets into the oil too any large degree (so far)... Another reason why I don't think I am getting any large quantity of water retained/mixing in with the oil is that with the higher temp that the CC is running, in conjunction with the air turbulence in the CC, the water is possibly being evaporated off at about the same rate it is being collected and expelled out the CC breather as vapours... I really can't say for sure, but thats how my twisted logic explains it... deemed true, until a better explanation comes along.... LOL....

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on February 22, 2016, 11:45:02 PM

Hi Ed,

Missed the PPPPPPPPPPPPS before but downloaded and played the 2 clips several times and can hear the difference.
Unfortunately can't fathom an explanation but I can hear it!  :D  My only possible explanation would be there is some water or water vapor in the sump left over from the saturation which is steaming off creating a constant pressure in there which changes the sound of the breather.

As I have said, The speed of the carbon buildup and removal goes against what I have experienced myself in that for me it has been a much more gradual process either way.

I think your plan to go to Dino and get some base to work off is a very sound idea.  See if you can find a fixed position for your camera and record the sound as well.
I started putting Diesel and some solvents through my vehicle about 6 months ago. I had the IP appear to clag up one day and couldn't get the thing to Rev. I put a strong Naptha/ oil mix through the thing which seemed after a while to free what I suspect was some gumming  and since have been adding a variety of solvents including turps, RUG, Diesel and kerosene.  The one thing with diesel is it has different detergents and cleaning agents that veg and WMO would not have.  My favorite is still the Naptha because if you look at basically any fuel system or oil cleaning additive, they ALL have naptha as the main active ingredient. Why buy it in 30%, 500Ml bottles for $14 - $30 as an additive when you can buy 1L bottles from the hardware for $8?

Lately Diesel has been cheaper than normal so I have been putting 20L or so in the tank every few weeks and trying to keep it concentrated for a while at least before throwing in more WVO when the tank gets down.
I might stock up a few drums for winter to put in as well.

One thing I have pondered in my empty head before is doing a water injection on the exhaust.  A small amount of water tapped into the exhaust to keep it clean and flushed.  Wouldn't need to be a lot I don't think and if injected near the manifold would turn to steam and should do a good Job.  That said I have never seen the buildup you seem to get so have deemed it overkill.  For you however...... may be worth while.
Your exhaust seems to be long. I am wondering if it is either too restrictive or does have a harmonic resonance that is incorrect for the engine. If you have played with 2 strokes you know how reliant they can be on bouncing pressure waves etc.  I'm wondering if the exhaust on your setup  is ither too restrictive in not letting the burnt gasses get away fast enough or if they might be bouncing back in an unforseen way. I take it like about everything else you have had a different setup on your engine at some time?  I think I would be trying some straight pipe for a run anyway and if you are savvy enough, try and work out a tuned pipe length  for the thing. If you could set up a pipe where the thing was creating max draw as it traveled along, that would be good to try even if it was impractical to run all the time.

With the speed you get buildup and changes, at least testing can show up the results fast!  :0)

I have to say I'm still at a loss in my head to do the mental arithmetic to work out what is causing so much carbon buildup.  The base cause must be incomplete combustion.  WMO when burnt thoroughly turns to a white ash powder.  Only when it is not burnt completely will it stay at the carbon phase. The RUG may help to initiate a cleaner burn.

With RUG and Methanol in the WI, I have found the closer the engine is to power capacity which is dictated by the fueling level, The easier it is to get the engine to knock.
On my vehicle, all I have to do to ajust fueling is literally turn a screw.  If the fuel is turned down, I can run a higher percentage of meth before it rattles regardless of volume. If I have the thing fueled up, It knocks much easier and If I have a higher amount of RUG, say 10% instead of 5, The amount of meth will also need to be less to stop excessive knocking.

One thing I have not come across with the RUG is what you have experienced with temp variation.  I have used it countless times in our often variable weather where it can be literally 35 one day and 20 the next and seen no difference in running conditions. Again I can't explain what you are seeing.  Regardless of ambient temps, The Cylinder temp when the fuel is injected is going to be so high that  even 50o ambient should be but a small percentage of the combustion and cylinder temps at ignition.  The RUG can not do anything in the fuel system less it would be vaporising and you'd know about that.

One thing that would be interesting for you to try would be LPG fumigation.  Just have a small amount of LPG entering the intake and see if hat had any effect on the carbon buildup.  I wouldn't try to regulate it, just have the thing sniffing a small constant amount of gas the whole time. The govenor will regulate the fuel to allow for load variation.  It may allow for a cleaner combustion but it is also capable of creating soot itself if it were to run rich ( have a look at an out of wack gas boiler)  but even one run would be interesting to see what if anything it did.  You could easily meter the gas with an unlit blowtorch directed to the intake. May need a higher flow rate to be effective but may not as well.

I'm still thinking that it's not the fuel that is the key here, it's getting the stuff to burn better. I'm not sure if that is in the timing or it's in getting a better flame spread in the Cylinder and perhaps a hotter burn.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 23, 2016, 10:46:19 AM
Hey Glort,

Right.... Some replies, I will try and put them in the order you put them down...

While administering water, there is a small increase in vapour from the CC breather, this is attributable to the higher chamber pressure I presume, caused by the steam flash-off. Once you shutdown the water, within a few revs, the breather clears... The sound you hear is the opening and closing of the breather valve on the first video. The more the cc vents, the louder the cc valve gets... Kinda like an air hammer effect as it shuts quickly... The more blow-by, the more sound is given off(Quite irritating actually, I silence it with a foam block to slow the open/close down a bit and get rid of the hammer of the column of air...) So, in actual effect, the less vapour slip, the lower the noise level... Unfortunately, due to the bright light, you cant see the vapour exit difference, but believe me, it was there...

Carbon buildup - Maybe I am over critical with the carbon buildup - Who knows? Possibly the blow by I have is well within the acceptable limits of others' operation even when I feel it is excessive. As most of the harder running of TM1 is done evening and night, the work light on the chassis faces the vent, so it is quite visible to the naked eye when running... If I recall, there have been quite a few mentions of porting the CC breather to outside the the Gen sheds in other threads... Also, I very seldom have the carbon hammer caused by chunks breaking loose and hitting the piston before being expelled.....

Water injection into exhaust - Tried it... It works... BUT.... be prepared for one hell of a mess... Better to overfeed the engine side and steam blast the exhaust, less messy but to same effect, albeit it seems to take a little longer.... It is easier to sweep up the carbon expelled than to wash the driveway down.... Water into the pipe doesn't steam off nicely and condenses quickly to give some rather nasty and messy wet spray....

My exhaust is clogging a bit, there is one section that needs a good clean, but the outlet still "pulses" quite strongly, and while there is a small amount of back pressure, very little, at the header, I don't think it is excessive as yet. I have put a 90 degree slow elbow and short exhaust on with the pepper-pot muffler to test, there was little, if any performance difference, so I am pretty sure it is still ok.... Harmonic resonance... Could be, anything is possible, but I am able to section off the exhaust in 3 different lengths... Tried all 3 with no major difference, except of course sound coming out at ground/waist/tree level....

Carbon Buildup Comment #2 - Possibly I am over critical...Small amounts could be the culprit, probs on the injector/IDI chamber side.. By the end of today I should be out of WMO, just dregs, and I will start pushing through Dino and see it the higher combustion temp/lower ash and carbon residue makes a difference... I hate running Dino, smells awful in comparison to WMO...

RUG - Daytime temps can make a bit of a difference I have found to the speed of the combustion event - Don't be mislead by the "cylinder temp is 300C vs delta Temp of 15C to 40C day temp" - My best explanation(via my twisted logic) is in a loss-less compression cycle, %difference in energy of inlet gas is same %difference of energy of compressed gas, ie air starting at 0C (273K)then compressed, contains 273/313K% of the energy of air starting at 40C then compressed to a similar volume- ie around 13%. This energy shows as a temperature increase and if I remember from the energy equations, the temperature is about the only real thing that changes and that is in about direct proportion to the energy "concentration" involved, ie higher temp of unburnt gas and hence faster flaming of fuel ... but hey, don't quote me, I am probably way off base here and thoroughly out of my comfort zone...Lol...

I am not too wild about LPG trials... LPG costs a lot more compared to WMO and that goes against my stingy nature... Call me "Scrooge" if you must!

I also don't think its a timing issue - its a fuel burn rate issue - While advancing the timing would help, slowing the rpm might help more, allowing for a more complete in-cylinder burn of the sump gunk... Wait, TM2 is gonna be a 500RPM baby with some HEAVY flywheels for the pulsing... That's gonna be interesting! .... Come to think of it, the heavy oil engines ala marine, have a WAY lower rpm count than these babies we play with... And look at what they run on! .... Hmm...now the mind starts spinning on the other side of the scale... Those little 2-stroke diesels I used to play with in R/C and control line.... Wasn't the fuel mix something like 50% Diesel fuel/25%Lighting Parrafin/25%Ether? - Way too long ago to remember accurately....

Keep it spinning!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 27, 2016, 10:03:21 PM
Hey Glort,

Couldn't resist it yesterday.... I know my silencer was getting a bit grubby on the inside, nothing serious, just a tad sooty... I could see it in the time taken to bring the heat store to temp from an exhaust heatex POV... I fashioned a drop pipe from some heavy wall irrigation pipe and attached it to the exhaust outlet which is at about 2.5m altitude, feeding it down into a 50l plastic drum... I then pulled out the plug at the first exhaust T which is around a foot from the head and installed a temp hose fitting and hooked it up to the water mains. With the engine running at about 1/2 load, I then wound the water into the exhaust. Spectacular is a bit of an understatement iro  the carbon and soot removal... I must have dislodged at least a kg of black stuff with the pulsing of the water driven by the exhaust gas... as to the overall success of the clean out....reasonable.... Any difference in performance from an engine POV.... nothing much, Any difference to the heatex efficiency... hard to tell, but seems slightly better.... The main conclusion I can draw from this escapade.... if I was married, it would have resulted in instant divorce proceedings being instituted.... even after the exhaust was fully drained, there was still enough moisture and condensate in the system to cause wind borne sticky black shite  to be cast around a radius of about 10m for the next 1/2 hour of so...

Would I recommend this as an easy way to decarbon an exhaust.... nope, not if you are married..... but if you are single, no washing is on a line nearby, you love washing down paving and anything in reach, you have a hi pressure washer and oodles of time on your hands, have plenty of water and don't mind if you just look like you've come home from work at the coal mine... go for it!

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: Hugh Conway on February 27, 2016, 11:35:00 PM
Ho Ed!!!!! If only you had a video of that one!!!!!
Never mind, the thought picture is quite sufficient  to produce a good laugh.
thanks for sharing your adventure. I will not try this one at home (or anywhere else either)

Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselgman on February 27, 2016, 11:38:26 PM
I needed a good laugh today... Thanks!  :laugh:

dieselgman
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on February 29, 2016, 12:10:09 PM
Hi Guys,

An update for the D.P. (Divorce Proceeding) exhaust cleaning method....

After numerous showers, cleaning the driveway of as much black shite etc that I could, I cut open my home made silencer that is just after the heat exchangers in the exhaust line. The silencer is made from about  3 to 4" galv pipe, about 600mm long. The inlet and outlet to the silencer are 1 1/2" galv pipe with the inlet extending inside to within 3" or so of the outlet. The end of the inlet is blanked off inside the silencer and 3mm wide staggered slots are cut at 45 degrees in the sides of the pipe, against the flow every 50mm or so.

The slots were mildly clogged, with about 10% of the slot blocked by residue. One band saw task later, the slotted inlet was removed, and, after welding closed, the silencer was changed into an expansion chamber. The exhaust noise difference is minimal, just a slightly deeper note when under heavy load. Power difference before and after is negligible, back pressure difference is hard to discern, but one way you can tell is by a change in heat available from the heat exchanger.... This is also hardly different at all.

Now, back to the DP method.... Did it do a thorough cleaning job? ..... No! .... It removed loose carbon, but not baked on or stubborn carbon... A further reason to NOT use this method as a "quick" way of removing the carbon from the inside of the exhaust... (And of course depositing it on the driveway, house walls, cars in the neighbors' yard and finally as black ink on your divorce summons....)

Keeping it single....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on March 01, 2016, 08:39:48 AM

Your Cleaning goes along with my position that carbon Removal ( the real stuff anyway) takes a while rather than a quick one shot doing a lot.

That said.....

Drove the truck up to the country to Visit my Dad. When he rings and says  " can you come give me a hand? " I know he dosen't ask for anything lightly.  Done his back in so Threw some oil in the truck, checked the oil and water and Up I came. I put a low percentage of Ethanol in the WI tank and due to the pressure switch being on the blink and having to control it manually, I have the delivery rate quite low so I can leave it running while cruising along.

Coming up the first big hill on the highway, I could see the thing blowing a LOT of smoke/ carbon/ whatever. I had the water on and the thing pretty much dialed up. I knocked the water off and there was a marked reduction in the emissions I could see in the lights of the car behind.  When the road leveld out I put the water back on and saw the trail resume but only a light output.

A few more hills saw the same heavy discharge when under load and the water was on a much lighter haze when under less load.
Because the water rate is so low, I only used about 5L in 150Km.  Before I got to the end of the first stink, I could see that the exhaust had cleaned up pretty much completely.
The cruise emissions were clear water or not and it was only When flat out that there was any haze which was obviously some over fueling which disappeared as soon as the throttle was eased.

When I got to the half way point, I called in for a coffee. Dropping from pushing well to the high side of  the expressway speed limits back to suburban  Stop/ start/ deceleration, I noticed the torque was well up on what it was when I left the city and the engine had more of the healthy Diesel clatter which means it's happy.

Now I'll readily admit that the long high speed drive may in itself have cleaned a lot of built up deposits.  The chink in that theory to me is the thing has been getting a good few highway squirts in the last month even though all the driving has been around the city. I have been doing very regular drives along the motorways where the engine gets a good, hard run if not a long one.  The other significant detail is the WI pump was inoperative  during that time.  I only fixed the pump ( broken wire) before I left to come up here.

Although the amount of water was small, the run was not that long and I doubt the engine was heavily carboned up, the change was noticeable and occurred in what I consider a shot amount of time. It was unlike when I have got a new ( used) car where the change took months but just the same, an improvement did unmistakably occur.

I would really love the money or a grant to do research on this.  Run an engine in different ways and pull it apart to see the results of WMO/WVO.  Record the amount of carbon buildup and then re assemble and run WI. Pull the thing apart again and see the results and try and make some sort of guide line in the creation, solution and preventative of the problem.

Wonder if I could get some sort of environmental, green, alternative technology Crowdfunding going?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on March 01, 2016, 09:55:32 AM
Hey Glort,

That pretty much sums up what I have experienced this side as well.... If you can catch the buildup quite early, it seems to be much easier to clean, hence the marked difference with my setup after a few mins of water squirting down the snout. It appears that, with carbon buildup over a time, the carbon "bakes" harder and is hence harder to remove. Catch it early/quickly and it blows away quite easily too... The aqua down the snout certainly makes a difference to the ass-end too... the exhaust on TM1 has more of a soot layer than a carbon layer. Just checked the logbook and saw TM1 is just shy of 2000hrs runtime... Actually thought it was a bit more than that, but my point is, "A major teardown and decarbon" is normally required every 1000hrs or so... I can almost guarantee that there is hardly any carbon buildup(relatively speaking) in the combustion and exhaust areas on TM1 as he now stands.

I have seen stationery diesel engines that have run fine for 1000+ or so hours, when stripped, are almost totally clogged in the exhaust area. Granted, the average farmer/non tech user will only strip or get someone to strip their engine if a problem becomes evident. The carbon deposition is almost logarithmic in progress... A little deposits over a long period, then when inefficiencies develop, a lot more deposits over a relatively short time.... A short burst of water does remove the latest deposits quite quickly, but the older and more "baked on" deposits take significantly longer time to remove.... WI does eventually remove these, but it does take quite a bit of hot, hard and heavy WI and running to remove them. (In my opinion, a better way than stripping the beasts down... The engine actually "works" its way clean... Sometimes though, things are just too far gone to avoid a stripdown....)

Again I ramble.....

Keep it clean....

Regds
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on March 01, 2016, 02:17:16 PM
A really pissed off rant for the day....

A good friend of mine owns some property about 1/2hour drive from the city center. A brilliant place(smallholding) to set up an off grid lifestyle in years to come. He was building a house and got it livable with the basic amenities, just some internal finishing off to do. He moved in with me as a housemate(No romantic notions please gents... we are straight!) some years back in a move to cut costs as he became a bachelor again, with kids, and the traveling costs were heavy. After moving to town, he had a tenant take up occupancy to supplement his income and for security reasons...

To cut a long story short, his tenant skipped out on him owing him a bundle of cash, and worse still, because the place was unoccupied for what we estimate as a whole 2 weeks or so, was gutted by the local thieves, right down to half of the roof now missing, windows smashed, all internal dry walling gone, general vandalism and even the fencing was being cut and removed for relocation to the local scrapyard probably... All electrical fittings and copper has been torn out too....(Oh yes, all the portable equipment such as generators, pumps et al is also gone.....)

He is out there now, trying to salvage the last of the roofing and removable assets and bring it back here for safe keeping and possible sale....

It is times like these that I wonder some pretty nasty things to myself..... Its a good thing natural disasters cannot be manipulated by the mind and directed at offending trash.....

Cheers....

A very pissed off Ed....
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: broncodriver99 on March 01, 2016, 03:54:16 PM
To cut a long story short, his tenant skipped out on him owing him a bundle of cash, and worse still, because the place was unoccupied for what we estimate as a whole 2 weeks or so, was gutted by the local thieves, right down to half of the roof now missing, windows smashed, all internal dry walling gone, general vandalism and even the fencing was being cut and removed for relocation to the local scrapyard probably... All electrical fittings and copper has been torn out too....(Oh yes, all the portable equipment such as generators, pumps et al is also gone.....)

That is tough for sure. I have seen my share of gutted houses. It always boggles the mind the amount of work a thief would go through for a relatively small payoff. A legitimate job would have paid more hourly.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on March 01, 2016, 07:13:58 PM
Hey B99,

Agreed, and the thing about it is: If it was a needy being in search of shelter or a roof, they would have appreciated the building as it stood... To vandalise and demolish 1000's of $ worth of fittings and work for the pittance that would be gained in scrap value is simply ridiculous...  The place is pretty much a write off by the looks of it... My mate managed to remove the remainder of the IBR roof sheeting and get it back here by this evening, along with a 5000L rain tank and some other bits and pieces....

The scary thing is, we know where the goods are most likely to be, but due to certain unmentionable reasons, the police will probably not act and assist in recovering the stolen items or apprehend the thieves in possession of them...
Cheers...
A still very pissed off Ed...
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on March 12, 2016, 10:26:58 PM

How are things going Ed?
Any updates or news?
Pretty quiet and boring round here without your musings.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on March 13, 2016, 10:01:25 AM
Hey Glort,

All cool here, been busy on a couple if non engine projects the last while... Sorted out another 10kl if water storage and catch tanks... Started on the replacement of a whole batch of windows on the flatlet with ali frames... Almost finished rebuilding a 2m manual bending press for sheet up to about 2mm thick... Plenty of gun work came in and kept me busy during the days too... Plus, just got news last week that the replacement of the replacement flywheel has been located, just waiting for the guys to ship it 1500km so I can do the last 600 km haul...

Tm1 is running fine on a daily basis, I run him 3-4 hrs in the late afternoon on cogen work, he is using a bit of oil, about 100ml every third day or so, no leaks that I can see, so its not too bad... Its almost time to do ac brushes on the genhead, but I can't complain... they were second hand more than 2000 hours ago, so they have had a good innings...

I made up a small  burner the other day, just to play with, works well, but small isn't so small! More on that later...

I am still lurking in the background, just not much to add...

Catch u later...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on March 16, 2016, 01:06:22 PM
Hey Guys,

I am still here.... No missing fingers, no exploded flywheels, no blood shed due to stupidity....(for a change....No really! .... unless I stick a screwdriver into an appendage during a project, the damn thing never works properly first time round!!)

Apologies for my long absence, as I alluded to previously, I am busy/have been busy with some non-Lister type projects that I need to get out of the way in the interim. Here's an example of one that has been hanging around for the last couple of years or so, a 2m odd hand bending brake for thin plate...

Pics here:http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/20160316 Bending Brake Refurb (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/20160316 Bending Brake Refurb)...

This little baby, all 600kg of it, has been blocking up the front of my bulldozer and I finally removed digit from rectal orifice to get it functioning... Mainly because I have to make up a replacement inner panel for the back of my Ford "pickup"... In ZA we call them "Bakkies"...

The bender works well, so much so that I have immediately stacked up (or had stacked up for me), a bunch of other projects... Actually, believe it or not, even a "prettifier" for TM1 - I am, when I get a chance, going to make up a duct/cowl for the radiator fan... but hey... Rome wasn't built in a day!!

The replacement, replacement flywheel is due any day now for TM2, I am probably going to ultrasound the faulties along with magnaflux'ing them to see if I can salvage and use them for TM2 - he is destined to run at around 500rpm on heavy oil, so the stresses will be much lower too... I am probably going to bolt with CSK's a "Tyre" spanning both rim external surfaces in place - this will effectively give it the appearance of being a large width flywheel with 2 bosses locating it on the crankshaft. Only the outer wheels will have gib keys installed to hold everything in place, the inner flywheels will be driven by the "shrink-fitted" and bolted mild steel tyre. The tyre hoop will be around 200mm wide and about 6mm thick, this should more than strengthen the rim enough to hold explosions at bay, even assuming that the wheels have less than perfect integrity. (but I will test/check them thoroughly beforehand though.) These "tyres" will be bolted in a zig-zag pattern onto each wheel rim with about 8mm dia CSK screws...

Incidentally, I did some deflection measurements on the crankshaft, comparing vertical deflection between one and two flywheels weight... very little!! In fact, most of the deflection I picked up was due to the footprint area of the motor flexing the work surface slightly... I have re-run the calcs, and the additional weight/distance from bearing should not be a major problem either. (Calculate the centrifugal force imposed on a crankshaft by a flywheel with a built in rim balance weight....scary!!)

As this is a CBW engine, the flywheels are (supposed to be) in balance and the engine oscillating balance is taken care of the CBW on the crankshaft(supposedly)... I am doing a static balance on the flywheels pre installation. I will add about a 30% oscillating mass additional CBW to crank throw radius to get things really smooth throughout the rev range... This has worked VERY well on TM1...

If anybody has any bits to add or check over, please shout NOW, before I start hacking things apart and together!! Any comments, questions or concerns, no matter how small, are welcome and always add another perspective!!

Keep it spinning!!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on March 31, 2016, 11:53:34 AM
Hey Guys,

Another word from sunny paradise.....

Just spoke to the suppliers a few minutes ago, it looks like TM2's replacement, replacement flywheel has arrived in the next major center... Only a 7hr round trip to go and fetch it!

But... Something I noticed yesterday on TM1 - I have installed an extended crankcase breather/CC vent valve assembly a while back. As luck would have it, it tuned perfectly to the resonant frequency of the crankcase volume and rpm I run TM1 at... Result: a crankcase vent sound level that is louder than the exhaust!! To get around this "problem" I put a 1" thick foam type "filter" on the end of the breather. This detuned the length enough to make it passable in the meantime... Now, the interesting thing that I found....

After running a couple of weeks with this gizmo in place, the temp has been around the 90C (Approximate) for the cylinder head water outlet temp.... It changes with load obviously, but hovers around there by and large. I saw, yesterday, that the foam filter was getting a bit clogged up, so, not having enough time to wash it, I simply removed it, pro-tem... During the cogen run yesterday evening, I noticed that the temp of TM1 was down by about 7 to 8 degrees... The ambient temp wasn't much changed from previous...

Has anybody else perhaps noticed that a change in crankcase pressure, or restricting the cc breather influences overall engine temperature perhaps? (There is not an excess crankcase pressure that I have noticed when the foam is in place, no oil leaks/gaskets seeping etc)

I will try and do a with/without run and see if there is any influence on temperature that can be picked up, possibly there is another reason for the temp decrease that I haven't noticed...

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: mike90045 on March 31, 2016, 06:06:12 PM
The crankcase pumps a fair volume of air, so it may help cool the underside of the piston somewhat (and other parts).   Or not. 
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on March 31, 2016, 11:42:44 PM
Hey Mike,

That's a distinct possibility, not sure if it is the case though... Difficult one to actually put a finger on decisively...

I did verify that I wasn't imagining it this evening, I put the gubbins in place and the temp rose anything between 5-7C and dropped correspondingly when it was removed... Still wouldn't believe it if I hadn't done it myself... Curious indeed.

I wasn't satisfied with a simple on then off check, I had it on and off at least 9 or 10 times during the course of the evening over a space of abut 3 hours.... Various loads, from lighting and fridges only through to a fully blown 25A output at 220v from dishwasher to electric iron, so it was a pretty thorough and random yet monitored run.... Was quite fascinating (small things amuse... etc...) and definitely something to file away in the memory banks for future reference.... I am now quite keen to try routing the cc vapours to the inlet, as there is virtually no oil in liquid or droplet form that makes its way up the vent stack, so a runaway is highly unlikely... Seems a shame to waste the bit that is escaping in vapour....

On another note, my replacement flywheel is definitely waiting for my collection, now must just try and hitch a ride for it up this way...

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed

PS and by the way... long term average so far is 603ml fuel per kWh... excluding heat from coolant and exhaust that is captured... Not too bad I don't think... what do you guys say?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on April 01, 2016, 03:20:57 AM

It sounds like the airflow in and out of the crank case must be having something to do with the lower temps but that said, I can't imagine the foam actually decreasing the amount of air going in and out. To do so would have to be creating some sort of a seal. When confronted with the facts, no matter how unlikely......

What may be an interesting exercise if you can do it is to stick a thermo probe down the vent and measure the temps there with and without the foam. If you get a cooler air temp without the foam, you know what it is.
I imagine the amount of air is significant and if you related it to something like a fan heater and the amount of energy it takes to heat the amount of air flow, it would seem to be very plausible.

I had an old merc Diesel that I used to tow a big trailer with. the thing always ran hot even on the flat.  Up hills, I would turn the cabin heater on full blast. that would take the engine temp from overheat to high but well within the safe zone. My present vehicles radiator is a bit sketchy and can get hot towing up hills on warm days as well. Turn on the heater ( and wind down all the windows) and the  temp will drop a lot.  This is on an engine doing over 100 HP with just a little heater core.  For an engine doing 6 HP, one can imagine not a lot of air would be needed and the surface area it has to work on is not small either.

Another test ( seeing you are into the small things that raise your curiosity like me) would be to put an electric fan blowing on the crank case and check the engine temps with and without that. If you can get even half the difference you are seeing with the foam, ( you would probably only get half the surface area in contact with the air.  I think that too would go a long way to proving the case.

As for the 603 Ml Kwh, that seems high from what I have read on spec sheets but then I would think they would always be best case scenarios.  It still seems high even for petrol engines though so I'll be interested to see what people that have measured real world experience say. I have never bothered measuring the consumption of mine that closely and did always think my different engines ( none lister/clones were pretty economical.
Another reason for my love of my little China diesel.

If one were to put that into fuel cost ( if one was in the unfortunate position to have to actually BUY fuel  :0) ) Compared to the cost of electricity and fuel here, that makes it REALLY expensive power.
Atm, our power has gone down ( and you believe that??)  to .20C Kwh.  Diesel is around $1.20 litre depending on the day.  It was $1.50 not so long back.
Going on your consumption, that would make 1.4 Kw hr generated about  $1.20 and 1.4 Kw bought from the power company under .30C .
Quite a difference when one needs to buy hundreds of Kw's a month.

I knew it was more exy to generate your own power and even free fuel doesn't cover it ordinarily, but I didn't realise it was THAT much more exy over mains power.

I have been taking an interest in  ( I'm going to get kicked off here for sure now!) Solar power.
Used panels are becoming far more plentiful thanks to upgrades and home demolitions/ rebuilds and can be had for .50C a watt now quite easily. I saw some the other day go for $50 for 250W panels that were only 3 years old and in perfect condition.

I have a bunch of inverters that were brand new and thrown out so I could do my own system very cheap. I'm looking to use teh grid like a battery bank so i run the solar straight back into the mains and wind the meter back. Luckily this place has the old style meter that will and does do that. I tested it with the little china diesel driving an induction motor generator through said inverter.
Given the low cost of panels and the high cost of engine driven power, for me in suburbia this seems like a great way of reducing ones power bill.  It may not be the most "Approved" method but that's another matter for people  with less worries than I have to ponder.

Those new Tesla and other storage battery/ inverter devices are now coming online much to the excitement of the green washed.  I have had a look at the numbers and they don't have a hope in hell of coming close to repaying themselves in the cost of the power they would save over their lifetime.  Maybe in 5-10 years when all the save the planet types have spent their money on their ideals the things may come down to a level they are worthwhile but they are so far away atm I can't see that happening till there is sufficient demand the Chinese start producing knockoffs.

As I have seen in other industries, they can produce QUALITY goods at a fraction of the price of the OEM stuff that in many cases I have come across does a better job than the original product and at a 10th of the price.
I have also read where power companies across the world are scared of the snowball effect this will have on them. As more people go onto solar and other consumption reducing strategy's, they will have to put their prices up to maintain profits in the face of selling less power. When they do that, the alternatives become more attractive and more people start reducing their consumption or leaving the grid completely and so it goes.  My sorry factor for them is well into the negative, they have screwed us for years on power prices because they were effectively monopoly. People had to rely on them.
Now lets see how they like being just another of many available alternatives and a less than ideal or desirable one at that. 
:0)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: buickanddeere on April 01, 2016, 03:54:12 AM
  A 6 shaft HP diesel will have to dump about 3.5 KW of heat from the radiator.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on April 01, 2016, 09:32:55 AM
Hey Glort/B&D,

The crank venting temp change is simply a curiosity for me, I am going to change it, just haven't got around to it... I doubt that I will take it much further... It could also probably be something so simple as the breather pipe shadowing a small draft to the side of the cyl head outlet pipe where the thermocouple is taped on... that could cause it I suppose.....

As to a fan blowing on the crankcase, I don't think it will make a noticeable difference, the wheels stir up plenty of breeze in the small enclosure as it stands....

I went back and checked the records... From new through to today, the consumption has been worst case 610ml or so to best case 590m or so per kwh... I have fairly accurate records, granted, my maths and formulas on excel aren't so hot anymore, but I think I am about right in my calcs.

What offsets it for me, is the cogen aspect - We haven't bought LPG for bathroom water heating in months. The heat store(which is very inefficient) holds temp overnight and hot water is available till early afternoon, after which it is a bit cool for comfort. The other small plus, is that the heat store is directly below the kitchen floor, albeit cement slab, and this has made the kitchen which luckily is fairly large, the social center in the evenings... What a pleasure to have everybody pitch in and clear up after dinner on a daily basis, then sit around with coffee and talk sh!t for a while... Very social!! (There are up to 9 of us in the household when most are home, and average around 7 most of the time.)

I might have sourced a contact for some large storage cells, flooded, 2V. If all goes well I might also go to a PV type addition. What has been holding me back is the cost of the batteries and the lack of good used ones on the second hand market... Hold thumbs!! For inverters, I have already got and am using 3xAPC UPS's. they total about 7.5kw in all, more than I need, but I don't know how well they will like to run on a continuous basis...I am going to look for a decent size single inverter to do the job, around 10kw I reckon should handle it mostly. Damn, Glort, now we are both gonna get kicked off here....

As I have said before, way back in this thread if I remember correctly: If I was in the middle of nowhere, no other source of power or heat, totally off grid, the Lister cogen is the way to go... As long as you are reasonably mechanically minded and not afraid to get your hands dirty on a daily basis. As a cheap/fully viable/reliable alternative to on-grid if it is available... Look elsewhere... (Eeeek....now I am really going to get flamed!)

I have also done the sums... How the Greenies at this stage can justify the cost/payback for PV, I really dont know. Every time I do the sums, the payback time is way over the MTBF estimate for the hardware. Granted, no emissions(for using them anyway), but the manufacturing emissions overheads were pretty horrible last time I checked, so either way, the planet gets a bit screwed up, not by the user, but by the manufacturer in this case..... I feel just a little bit better when I walk out my door and know that if the beast is belching out black smoke I can do something about it!

Interesting point re the power companies... Kinda "catch 22"... We know we are being screwed... We go PV... Juice price goes up... More go PV... Prices rise more... More go PV... PV panels now popular and take over as a monopoly... PV panel prices start hiking... A never ending loop of greed...

B&D - I haven't done the calcs or checks since I installed the heatex on the top line of the radiator input, but I can say that I am getting a "more than initially expected" return in heat harvesting from it. I initially calc'd out after measuring, that I was getting around 1.6Kwh worth of energy out of the exhaust heatex. With the coolant heatex in place, I, at a guestimate, am well over double that now. My initial heat store was around 90kg of water and from the exhaust only. Now we are running around 250Kg of water store and this gets up to well over the 60C mark from around a start of 10C approximate.. It does this within 2 hours or so, so I am more than satisfied. During the evening shower cycle, putting 9 people through the wash bays, with TM1 running, there is still plenty of hot left over for most of the next day.

Again I ramble....

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: 38ac on April 01, 2016, 11:54:46 AM


As I have said before, way back in this thread if I remember correctly: If I was in the middle of nowhere, no other source of power or heat, totally off grid, the Lister cogen is the way to go... As long as you are reasonably mechanically minded and not afraid to get your hands dirty on a daily basis. As a cheap/fully viable/reliable alternative to on-grid if it is available... Look elsewhere... (Eeeek....now I am really going to get flamed!)



Ed,
As always a good read on whats going on with your system.  The portion of your post I saved in the quote is spot on in my opinion even though I have never and do not ever plan on being off grid. I do supply equipment and try to follow up on what happens with it.
Seems that the vast majority who dream of cheap energy via diesel power and re-purposed fuels get a rude awakening to real and continuing costs  and (I suspect) also they tire of the required daily routine.  The vast majority end up back on grid,,, one way or another.  My hat is off to all of those with enough brains and brawn to stick with it,, and it takes BOTH.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on April 01, 2016, 01:16:11 PM
If you and I were neighbors or even lived in the same City Ed, we'd be dangerous we think that much alike!

Your point about the flywheels creating draft on the crank case is a valid one... One I was too stupid to think of. But, maybe more air....... :0)

I have 3 UPs's and they are APC's as well.  2 of them are 400W units and the other is 1.2Kw from memory. I had a beautiful 3Kw unit but the cat pissed on it and that was the end. It was 96V so took a lot of batteries to power it and I like to use car batteries for standing use. They were all given to me by various people and I have converted them with external leads so i can run them from a pair of car batteries.  I used to have an event photography Business where we would go out and photograph car races or kids on horses etc and had a trailer full of computers and printers and put up a tent with 20-30 laptop computers that the people could see their pics on. they would give us the orders and we would print the pics out there and then or burn them a CD.

We were always the last ones to leave as people always left their orders till the last second. Inevitably someone would pull the plug on us which was a major drama as it would take the servers a good 10 min to spin up again and get back online.  By using a couple of car batteries plugged into the ups's , I had almost an hour of running the trailer which had a couple of computers for ordering as well.  Wasn't a light setup but it saved our arses a few times.

I have also done a lot of sports team photography and we can set up a mini office in a tent and a portable studio with proper lights.  The ups and car batteries Give me enough power to run the computers and the studio lights with just about an hours run of my home made generator.  It's just an old Kawasaki 5Hp petrol engine with a 24V alternator on it wired to go pretty much full tilt the whole time.  I'm not worried about cooking the batteries, I have an endless supply of used batteries and I pretty much know now how much they are going to take. I only need to give them a top up around the middle of the day and then I can put them on the charger when I get home. The engine only runs at a fast idle and with the ventilated box I made for it the noise is reduced so you have to be on top of the thing to hear it and the rest of the time it's silent, pure battery power.  I was only thinking the other day that a couple of 200W panels on the top of the tent on a decent day would stretch the batteries for the power I need.


I am going to be setting up my oil burning house heater in the next couple of weeks for our fast approaching winter.  You can see a vid of what I did with it when my hot water heater broke down last year.
What I would like to do with this setup is get a 400L gas water heater and convert it to oil heating. I would plumb the before the regular electric heater.  That way when I fired up the oil heater it would supply hot water to the electric and it would not have to kick in. If I forgot to fire the oil heater or wasn't home etc, the electric would kick in as normal so I would have all the advantages and no disadvantages.

I want to use the same setup in the Vid  ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pP6jTUEJBU ) to run the hot water through a car radiator in the house with a fan to pump out the warm air. I had a solar type circulation pump but that didn't push the water faster enough so I have got a small 1" 370W pump which I am sure will do the job perfectly now. I'll control the oil flow with a pump on a timer that will kick in and out for a set time to supply the fuel required.  I'll use an open header tank so the system will be under no pressure and I have got a lockout thermostat to put on the fuel pump so if things get too hot, the fuel cuts and the fire goes out though the fan will still run to cooll things off a bit more.
I'm also looking at putting a 2nd " Dump" radiator Under the house to use the last bit of heat to warm the floors.


I'll have to determine how much heat I'll need but I'm guessing 5-10 Kw should be heaps. This place is old, drafty and not well insulated so cool off bloody quick...... except in summer when you want it too!
 I am -toying- with teh idea of putting a 44 gallon drum in the place as a slow release thermal mass.  That kinda depends on what Ideas I can come up with to make it look acceptable inside. I have a lot of leeway as we are still in the process of selling the place so having it look like home beautiful is not a concern although I would prefer it not to look like a mechanics garage either.
I don't want to let the thing run on it's own at night so I thought having the 44 Full of hot water  would be like a giant house size hot water bottle to keep the chill off when I'm sleeping.  Lot of thermal mass ( i'd like to find out how to work out the stored heat energy)  in 200L of water and the surface area of a drum isn't bad either.  I can already see the cats clustered around it. they are like heat seeking missiles in winter.

Don't get me started on Greenies. They do my head in.  If I hear another ignorant moron environmentalist go on about how electric cars are emission free, I'll strangle the arseholes.  They are so damn ignorant to realise how much of the worlds power, particularly in the places where electric cars are going to be the most used, comes from fossil or nuke fuel  so the emissions are not coming out the tail pipe, they are coming out the other end. They also have no idea of things like the inefficiency in generation, transmission and conversion to chemical energy and back in batterys but just crap on endlessly like the only thing an electric car causes is sunshine and rainbows.  Forget about the deadly toxic materials that goes into the batteries and the energy expended in refining and shipping it around the world and it's limited life cycle.

I run my car on veg oil and have done for 11 years. I used to get lambasted in the hey day because I admitted I was in it for the savings not the save the planet bullshit.  There were so many trees cut down to grow oil seeds and so much resources and energy wasted in the construction of plants that never got off the ground that the at best 1:1 return on fossil fuel expended that the planet will never recoup from yet another green washed load of ignorant crap.

I'm all for looking after the planet but in a real and effective way, not idiotic schemes that are purely and utterly to make shareholders rich by appealing to the do gooder idiots that are so keen to champion a cause, they can't see the glaring holes in it you could slide a semi through sideways.
The thing I have noticed with the greenwashed is, they are people with more dollars than sense and will spend loads of money on any contraption that purports to save the environment regardless of it not having a chance of ever repaying itself. I was on an alternative energy forum which was run by the greenwashed and the things they would talk about and the money they would spnd on them to save a litre of water or a watt of power had to be read to be believed. They would spend 10's of thousands to put in PV/ battery systems and run 12V refrigerators and appliances that supposedly saved the slightest bit of power.  Yeah, couldn't point out that instead of buying the $4000 Fridge you would be better off all round buying a regular $1000 one and spending the other 3K  on more panels or storage. Nope, no place for conventional logic in the minds of the greenwashed.  It has to be the most expensive, impractical arrangement possible in order to be green.  I mean after all, You wouldn't want to use up all the sunlight by just adding more panels to make more power would you? One day that sunshine is going to run out and it's our responsibility to leave some for our kids and grandkids right??


Here as well,  batteries are too expensive to be justifiable when the mains power is readily and cheaply available. AS you say, different when mains is not available but that's why I plan to use the grid as a battery and pump in through the day and pull out at night.
I was thinking even when I move, if I get a place with the new meters that won't run backwards, I can still have the solar first running the hot water heater (Depending if I have the space to set up the oil powered one) and then feeding back into the household circuit to supply the household needs.  That alone should make a big saving.
There is a place not far from me that can wind heater elements to whatever spec you want. I could have for instance a 24V, 1000W element made up to fit a standard water heater. It might take all day to heat the water up but with a decent sized system, Who cares? With a twin element system which are popular on the 400L jobs, I could have one solar powered and the other mains powered to take care of wet and dark days. Probably take a few days for us to use that much hot water anyway and..... I could also power the small element with a Veg oil engine driving a common truck alternator.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on April 01, 2016, 01:35:19 PM
(I suspect) also they tire of the required daily routine.  The vast majority end up back on grid,,, one way or another. 

Same as 99.9% of the Green do gooders professing to save the planet by running Biofuels  a while back.
All well and good while it was flavour of the month, trendy thing to do, but most of those with lofty loudly professed principals very soon gave it away because they literally didn't like getting their hands dirty!
I suppose it took them away from protest marches or video games or whatever the hell they are into as well.  I think that's why solar is popular. You pay your money, you don't need to do anything apart from brag how you are saving the planet...... Driving round in your New Petrol powered 3 ton SUV or pickup. 

Meanwhile the people they put shit on, the ones that dared say they were in it for the cost savings, are the ONLY people I know still doing it from 8-10 years back.  NONE of the green do gooders are still around.
They all sold out to the big oil that they went on so much about killing the planet.

I guess the planet isn't worth the extra effort when you can just pull up to a pump after all.  My wife never had to do even that.  To her, the tank just magically filled itself up again.  :0)

There are a lot of things that people have big ideas about but soon fall over when it requires any extra effort or time away from what they prefer doing more. Or doing nothing at all.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselgman on April 01, 2016, 02:40:06 PM
I spent some years living off-grid on a mountain top in Alaska. That was 20 years ago and as I recall diesel fuel at $0.75 per gallon. We ran a couple small Lister plants 24/7 between two households and had fairly good luck as far as equipment maintenance costs were concerned... The reality of finding or producing cheap power is - it isn't ever cheap. You either put in the time and effort to keep up a "free" fuel supply and a maintenance program, or you put in the bucks to keep the fuel delivered and new equipment operational, or somewhere in between. The trade-offs are still there and nature will always balance itself out. I think it becomes a matter of what your particular desires and talents and resources might be that tip the scales one way or the other. What is best for social responsibility is not likely the same thing for everyone and certainly drastically differing depending on the locale in which you live. In my opinion, this is one of the major flaws in the EPA regulation that forces a "one size fits all" regulation on our possible choices. America has become a nation of sheep by and large... to even accept such idiotic intrusion and regulation on our lives. The wolves are in power obviously and the decline continues...

dieselgman
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on April 02, 2016, 12:46:08 PM
You either put in the time and effort to keep up a "free" fuel supply and a maintenance program,

I used to forever get people saying " But what about your time? You have to take that into account"
WHY???  *&$!!#@ Used to drive me nuts that!

I don't put off work to do this, it's a hobby that pays better than anyone else I know's hobby. For years I do a batch of oil every few months usually which I can do from start to finish over a weekend doing other things around the place.
Yes, I drive around to pick up oil.  I used to do it with a mate one sunday morning a month. Get oil, stop somewhere nice for brekky like a pair of socialites, have a chat for a couple of hours and enjoy each others company.  Then for a few years it was taking the kids for driving lessons and racking up hours.   They went whenever they wanted and had their licenses before any of their friends. Their friends had to wait till the family was actually going somewhere, most of their parents could not afford fuel just to drive round for the sake of it.  In the end I was taking other peoples kids to get their hours up faster than they could afford.
Often now the Mrs comes out for a run with me particularly like late during the summer on those warm, balmy nights when it's nice to be out while the house cools down.
It's not like a chore of getting out of bed to go to work although sometimes I do go out then because it's nice to see the early morning.

The smart thing I did was to make my processing setup as " Factory" like as possible. Dirty oil in, clean oil out and never shall it see the light of day in between. The processing is self running once I fill the tank and turn the thing on.  I change a filter every 10-15 batches on average, a 5 minute, $6.70 Job.

I worked out years ago that the money I save and the hours I put in on veg puts me on Doctors wages, and not the local GP hack either!
Even recently, I could collect and process 200L of oil in easily 1Hr hands on time. I don't count the time, maybe 3 hours it sits in the processor because I go do whatever I want including leaving the thing going when I leave the house.  Most of what I pick up is easily less than 10 Min away, 10 min to suck a drum and muck around, 10 min home and <15 min to manually load the processor as I choose to do for the exercise ( could pump it a lot faster if I wanted) and another <15min to unload it when it's done.

 That fuel would cost me $350 to buy here till a couple of months ago.  And that 350 would be after tax meaning it would be closer to $435 Id have to earn.
Now I don't know about other people here, but $400 an hour is freaking good money to me. Even now it would be around $240 an hour AFTER tax to buy the same amount, it's a lot more than I make on average.

The fact its a hobby I do for fun, sense of independence and exercise just makes it all the more valuable to meand makes the " Your time" comment even more irrelevant.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on April 05, 2016, 03:52:01 PM
Hey Guys,

Agree wholeheartedly!

Even discounting time entirely, if there is ANY cost to your fuel, the "payback" time for investing in one of these babies runs to an eternity. (When you take running spares and maintenance material costs into it.) Cost vs return is a very slim line... you really gotta love it to justify it. As a paying hobby, it is worthwhile, if you take into account that very few hobbies will enable you to pursue other avenues while they are in progress... ie, running your engine for fun and making hot water/juice for the household while you are at it vs say, flying model heli's or the like.... Both much fun, but one is pure expense while the other benefits everybody around you.... (even the butterfly in South East Asia...Lol...) You are "disposing" of fossil/other waste oils in probably, what I would say, the most environmentally acceptable method around!

But hey, this is not my usual long ramble... I have dodged inside to type this post while I await a courier with the "hallowed replacement flywheel" .... and... yes, I know, I am an addict (in the background the rest of you addicts greet: "Hello Ed")... Along with the flywheel a few badly needed basic household appliances(well I need them and I have a strange household) and other bits and pieces... AC/DC Tig welder(Chinese probably, but it has some really cool twisty turny knobs and its .... YELLOW) ... A couple of 750Kg Chain hoists(Always running out of those)... A couple of hoist load levelers(always wanted them but never got round to getting)... An argon flow meter(where did I put that other one now)... and a beam crawl to hook the chain blocks to the new gantry(I found my other one, maybe I should have got two so I would have a spare)...

Chat laters...I am gonna wait for a courier and carry on welding up the new gantry, its almost done...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: 38ac on April 05, 2016, 04:03:36 PM
In a way its little different than burning wood for heat. Those that get into it to save money usually have the stove, saws, splitter all for sale after just a couple years and spend their money on fuels while spending their  spare time complaining about how much work it was,,,  I have a hell of chunk of money invested in burning wood but wouldnt have it any other way.  ;)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on April 05, 2016, 04:32:10 PM
Hi 38ac,

Yep, very much the same in all walks of life... Burn bright for a short while then slowly die out till not even embers remain... More often than not, those that give up on the sustainable/recycled fuel lines usually find fleabay to be a good friend for getting rid of the now "surplus" to needs equipment... And, don't forget, there are the inevitable complaints about how little money they could recover for selling the near perfect condition (yet totally buggered), saw/splitter/listeroid etc....

Now my rant.....!

The lazy SOB couriers "lost" my goods, only to find them "just before" closing time... "Too late to deliver now, first thing tomorrow morning, should be just before or around noon..." ...They say.... What a bunch of absolute wankers.... If first thing is around just before noon, I need to check my sundial...Blerrie eedjuts!

Right, let me go pack the block and tackle away, seeing that the a$$holes wont need the pallet offloaded this eve....

Cheers....
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on April 06, 2016, 03:49:53 PM
Hey guys,

Woohoo...

My flywheel has arrived! It looks a "bit" different to the originals, around 70mm larger diameter(approx 670mm od) with almost kidney-shaped holes instead of the previous round holes in the web... the hole spacing seems symmetrical, so it looks like its from a CBW type 'roid....

Anybody had similar?

Keep it spinning...

Cheerz
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on April 14, 2016, 02:29:09 PM
Hey Guys,

Talk about putting Descartes before a horse....

Picture the scene... Double flywheels in temp position, lightly keyed into place.... Looks Awesome!! .... .... .... .... Grab overhead hoist to lift TM2 and turn him around... .... .... Then it dawns on me.... Overhead hoist is rated safely to about 750kg... TM2 was around 600kg with single flywheel set... Add another 200kg or so of flywheels... Bad Idea.... Open the household pub and proceed to drink copious amounts of brew....

Decide to finish building new hoist that is rated to safely lift 1000kg.... Tomorrow is another day!!

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on April 14, 2016, 11:29:19 PM

Honestly, I wouldn't have worried.
The rating on hoists is half their capacity.  An extra 50 Kg should not have worried it at all. Safety ratings are what something will do forever with no possible chance of failure. If I went into a 1 or 2% chance of failure, I wouldn't be worried for a 1 off myself. And at 50Kg over the theoretical, half rating...... Meh. It's not even an overload in physical terms.
BUT, it was a good reason to blow the top off a cold one. As is any reason. :0)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on April 15, 2016, 08:34:13 AM
Hey Glort...

You know me too well!! ... I have lifted way in excess of TM2 before, but as you say, any excuse is a good one...!

The "real" reason I am running behind is that I need to get the roof on the next 80 sq m of workshop... Weather is dodgy over summer over here and outdoors work isn't pleasant because of the heat/wind/rain... Not as bad as our friends in the snowy places, I know, but unpleasant nevertheless... Winter over here is normally the time I take on the outdoors projects, its cooler, less wind, and hardly any rain. (And a further small reason is the lack of space to move around with TM2 while he is on the gallows... I am none too keen on getting close to large lumps of steel in possession of large amounts of potential energy...I have an allergy to wearing cast iron as permanent implants!!)

Yesterday evening we cleaned up 50m of lip channel with cup brush then enamel painted it. Tonight and over the next day or so I have another 170m to clean up and paint, some more for the roofing and the rest to be put one side for future projects... I managed to get a fair deal on a heap of channel yesterday, damaged stock with some minor water damage. The deal was "All or Nothing" so I now have a bit extra... Always handy for various things. To prevent it going bad, we are enameling the whole lot while we are at it....

Enough said....

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed

PS ... On another note, TM1 has run through about 150l of relatively pure diesel and is back on the sump gunk again... Stop and start on it too... What I did notice was that he was initially a slow, smokey starter before warmed up when I went on to diesel - this has cleaned up considerably now and he starts quite easy. Bear in mind, after rings etc were changed, he went onto sump gunk almost immediately. I wonder if the added lubricity of this fuel lent itself to a slower than normal bedding in of the rings. As of the last couple of tanks of gunk, there has been less blowby evident and a lower than normal build up of carbon, compared to just before the diesel run. Every evening of late, around about an hour or so into the run, there is a bit of carbon that builds up on the innards(injector tip probably) - power drops off, he starts smoking and labouring a bit, not quite making target power. A quick heavy flush with a dose of aqua, and he is up and running, "full steam ahead" literally, for the rest of the cogen evening run without any further issues... These green things certainly have a "personality" !
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on April 19, 2016, 10:47:51 AM
Hey Guys,

In the essence of "Push it till it breaks, then back off a bit" I have run TM1 on a low WI input on sump gunk until he is thoroughly clogged up.

As mentioned previously, about an hour into the run, I flushed him with good bit of water to clean up the deposited carbon from the initial warmup. Well, my inquiring and somewhat destructive mind got me to run him without a flush and just minimal attention for the last few days... Four, to be exact, to see how long it would take for the carbon to become a serious problem.

This is what I found:
After Day one - a bit of buildup internally, an hour into the run, instead of flushing, I reduced the load a little and running seemed to improve after about 15mins or so so he went back to full load.

After Day two - A little harder to start, carbon was building up on the valves I think, there was a bit of a "low compression" symptom, only with starting, no major cc breather venting, but passable in power.

After Day three - Still hardish to start, compression was a bit down, a little cc breather activity, but mostly evident was valve leakage.

Day Four - Sluggish start, quite a bit of cc breather activity initially, this calmed down after a few minutes of running. After about 1 1/2 hours of running, there was major cc breather venting, this developed over about 30 to 45 min, not smoke per se' but carried oil droplets were making a mess. There were no other leaks on seals or gaskets, so the improved cc vent valve was doing a reasonable job. The run was abandoned around 2 hours in, even though he was making full power.

I will tear him down and see what the gunk has done. The symptoms are of a broken compression ring or two, or possibly just that the grooves are badly carboned up and jamming the rings....

I will report back once the teardown has been done!

Any bets as to what has happened?

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed

PS - We are almost finished with the framing for the new gantry/workshop shed - The roof covers about 80sq m with about 70sq m usable by the gantry, lift height is around 2.4m. The gantry looks like it will develop into a double beam runner with 2 hoist blocks on one beam and a single on the other, spaced around 75-mm apart... The main load rails are 160mm H section x 2 with an additional outboard rail of 160mm I beam close to the door opening of around 9m wide. The roofing frame is made from 125 and 150mm lip channel affixed to the top of the main gantry runners. Quite a bit of work, but well worth it in the end, I reckon..
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on April 21, 2016, 03:31:47 PM
Hi Guys,

In the spirit of misinformation, being in a hurry, not looking or analyzing correctly.... The problem was really simple.... CC breather valve fault... Replaced spring(broken) and all is well... Back onto 100% sump gunk... TM1 is still clogged up quite nicely, compression is a bit down, but he is now running without blowing oil out of the CC vent...

This all comes from just not taking a few minutes in daylight hours, where you can actually see what the problem is! (And of course, jumping to conclusions!!)

All is well ... for now, until of course, I jump headlong into the next bad diagnosis!

It is amazing how coincidental this small failure was... The vent valve failed within a few days of 100% gunk running.... Unrelated, I am sure, but a bit off-peeing...

But seriously though, there is definitely a bit of valve "something" going on, they are not seating quite as they should be after a good few hours on the crud!

Keep it spinning.... (Again!)

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on April 21, 2016, 03:50:29 PM
P.S. - Here is the start of materials reclamation and erection of the new "tackle-work" to swing TM2 around while I am building him up.... If I was married, an excuse to build a bigger, better gantry and extend the workshop a tad might have been a problem.... http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/20160419 New Gantry and Roof/ (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/20160419 New Gantry and Roof/) (Sorry about the picture quality, my cell is on its last legs and I don't feel like hauling out the Canon...)

 ;D One can never have enough cranes, gantries and lifting kit around a household.... Now, just that small lintel to remove and doorway to open a bit and I can install the main household gantry between the kitchen and dining room.....Hmmmmmm.....  ::)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: buickanddeere on April 23, 2016, 07:46:56 PM
Made me curious about South Africa weather .http://www.southafrica.info/travel/advice/climate.htm#.VxvCU8is_v4
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on April 25, 2016, 07:39:03 AM
Hi B&D,

By and large, the weather in our area is quite pleasant to say the least. The winters are moderate and the summers are wonderful. We have a bit of wind which makes outside work a bit of chore, but not hurricanes by any scale. The weather does change rapidly, sometimes all 15 seasons in one day, but it is nowhere near the extremes that others in the more hostile climates have to face. Being thoroughly spoilt in this regard, I reckon that when I complain about bad weather, it would be perfect weather by someone else's standards. No shoveling snow, seldom floods, seldom gale force winds... A really bad day is when there is a thunderstorm and I cant use electrical equipment such as hand drills etc outside.... As with all human nature, regardless of the climate, there will always be reason to complain about the weather ::)

Now, its an icy 20C here at the moment.... Let me find a warm patch of morning sun to bask in while I sip my coffee.... Lol

Cheers
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on April 25, 2016, 12:10:27 PM

 No shoveling snow, seldom floods, seldom gale force winds... A really bad day is when there is a thunderstorm and I cant use electrical equipment such as hand drills etc outside....

I cannot imagine living in a place that was snowed in like that for 3 or more months of the year.  It would be hell to me.
I live in a less than desirable area of my city. Always have been in the same area.  While often looked down upon, I have always been greatful and appreciative of the place.
I have never been flooded out, never had winds that caused major damage ( although a few small tress went over a few months back but other places got blown off the map)  never had to worry about bushfire ( which has wiped out suburban area's here)  or had to worry about anything else along those lines.

There are many upmarket and expensive areas near or bordering me and it seems they always cop it and we miss out.

We are going into winter now and if we get more than about 3 mornings where it gets to -2oC and about 5 where it hits 0 C, we'll think it was a cold winter.  That IS cold enough!  Stuff having to live somewhere it snows.
I went and visited the snow ONCE when I was a kid.  40 odd years later I have had NO desire to go back.
About 10 years ago I did have an experience I thought was pretty amazing.
I had to go up the mountains to Visit a client. Being a weekend I rang a mate and said Do you want to come with me and we'll take the bikes?  I knew I was only going to be an hour tops so he was happy to come along.

The temp fell as we climbed which was expected and the weather closed in. We were fearing getting our arses wet but then there was stuff falling from the sky but it wasn't rain.  We stopped at a set of lights and looked at each other and simultaneously said  " Is that Snow??"  I never thought I'd get to ride my Harley in the snow.  Went, saw the client and it got quite heavy.  It was a slow, cold ride back down.
When we did get back down to the outermost suburb of the city, the sun came out and the temp went up and we were sweating like pigs. We stopped at a maccas for something to eat and sat there pondering we were now more than warm enough in T shirts sitting in the shade yet less than 45 Min ago, there was snow building up on the bikes as we tip toed our way though.

Maybe that's no big deal in other parts of the world but here in OZ, No one I have ever relate that to has not been totally amazed or ever heard of it before. Lucky we got pics!


Quote
As with all human nature, regardless of the climate, there will always be reason to complain about the weather ::) 

I have done a lot in the field of sales. Both in my own business and when starting out as a Kid in retail, I soon learned THE best Ice breaker/ conversation starter of all was THE WEATHER.
Everyone knows about it, everyone has 100 stories about it, everyone loves and hates it and everyone has an opinion on it.  You can be selling sunglasses, pornography or a house and you can walk up to someone and make a comment about the weather and you have built rapport. You will get a response, people will talk to you and you don't seem pushy or like a salesperson. The beauty is, the weather is universal and relates to anything. You are only one step away from changing the conversation to what you do want to talk about and it never seem out of place or unrelated, quite the opposite.

I taught a friend sales years ago. He was desperate to get out of being a chef and thought he'd give sales a go. I saw him in January and he was complaining because he'd "Only" make $350K in commissions this financial year.  We were talking about what he sold, how he sold it the competition etc. I made mention that he had come a long way since our sales sessions in my kitchen over a case of beer. He said not really.
I looked at him and he said despite everything I have learned and the experience I have, what you taught me is still the most important stuff I use every single day.  I asked like what and he said  " The weather!"
We laughed. He said you were dead right, it's the best opening line in history.

He said I ring clients 2 KM from me and say " Hows the weather there?"  they tell me and ask where I am and when I tell them, they say but you are just down the road. He says Yep, but you know what the weather in this city is like, changes at the end of the street and in 5 min.  He said from there they will chat away and then after a while he'll say this is what I was ringing for, I do this and that, could I take you out for a coffee or  lunch to tell you some more. He said when I see them, first thing I mention is the weather and we are like old friends straight off.



Quote
Now, its an icy 20C here at the moment.... Let me find a warm patch of morning sun to bask in while I sip my coffee.... Lol 

I DO know what you mean!
Last week it was 29 here and people were sweating. The last 3 days has been highs of low 20's and down to 15 and people are going on like the ice age has returned.

Why the hell people are AGAINST globull warming I don't know? I'd be perfectly happy for it to be 25 all damn year round!
Stuff winter, that's for those weirdo people that live in American and Europe and those other places the poor suffering people have to live.
Can't all be in a paradise like us Ed!

I like looking at girls in Bikini's not overcoats with 17 layers under them.
Give me warmth and sunshine any day.




Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on April 25, 2016, 12:21:21 PM
Hey Glort,

" " " " " " (Ditto, Ditto, Ditto....)

Now get off your lazy ass and pull them wheels off your roid!!

I shouldn't throw stones.... I am in my metallic years too... Silver in the hair, gold in the teeth.....and.....lead in the ass.......

Cheerz
E
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselspanner on April 25, 2016, 12:50:27 PM
Yeah, but what's the skiing like?

Stef
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: buickanddeere on April 25, 2016, 07:20:27 PM
  There is no normal "weather" here, just long term averages. three wind direction changes  here adjacent to lake Huron are not uncommon and  will cause temperature and humidity to vary.depends too of the lake is open or frozen over. More precipitation but warmer temps when the lake is open during the winter. Winters and summers rather than being typical will vary year to year from being either unusually warm or unusually cool. The intense winds off the lake tends to make even sober people walk with a lean.

http://www.farmzone.com/statistics/temperature/cl6124127/so040
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on April 26, 2016, 08:57:37 AM
Hey Stef...

The skiing is great... A couple of Evinrude 200's and a few largish dams in the area, sunshine, bikini's and barbecue.... AWESOME!  ;D

Cheerz
E
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on April 26, 2016, 09:01:32 AM
Hey B&D,

Took a look at the weather link....got as far as seeing 4 months of the year averaging at less than 0C... Quietly backed away...I am not man enough for that weather....

Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: buickanddeere on April 27, 2016, 08:18:18 PM
Hey B&D,

Took a look at the weather link....got as far as seeing 4 months of the year averaging at less than 0C... Quietly backed away...I am not man enough for that weather....

Ed

  We pack the manly bits under lots of thermal insulation.   
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on April 28, 2016, 08:37:45 AM
Hey B&D,

In that weather I would definitely nedd the surgical procedure: "Strapadicktome" to maintain my gender....

Lol
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on May 09, 2016, 10:48:56 AM
Hey Guys....

Couldn't resist it.... Totally off track, will probs get thrown off the forum, but hey.... Laughter is the best medicine!

<Snip>
A group of Std. 1's, 2's and 3's, accompanied by two female teachers, went on a field trip to the Greyville Racecourse, to learn about thoroughbred race horses and the supporting industry, but mostly to see the horses.

When it was time to take the children to the 'bathroom', it was decided that the girls would go with one teacher and the boys would go with the other. The teacher assigned to the boys was waiting outside the men's toilet when one of the boys came out and told her that none of them could reach the urinal.

Having no choice, she went inside, helped the little boys with their pants, and began hoisting them up one by one, holding on to their 'wee-wees' to direct the flow away from their clothes.

As she lifted one, she couldn't help but notice that he was unusually well endowed. Trying not to show that she was staring the teacher said, 'You must be in standard 3?'

'No ', he replied. 'I'm riding Silver Arrow in the seventh race, but I appreciate your help.'

<UnSnip>

Cheerz
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on May 18, 2016, 09:44:48 PM
Hey guys...

Another day, another dollar.....spent...

Just eased myself into a semi horizontal position on the workbench.... The main workbench in the bedroom... ... Wondering to myself where the last few weeks have gone, my, time has flown.... Kinda like the old saying: "Time flies like knives... Fruit flies like bananas..."

Been hard at it planning the forthcoming roid project, a double wheeled behemoth to tick over at around 500rpm... I have managed to get the wheels checked over by an old gent who really knows his stuff. He assures me that as long as we don't go above around 850rpm or so, things should hold together quite fine. He did a bit of a speed test on the suspect wheels and ran them up to rated speed - beyond a bit of bounce due to one being a bit out of balance, all was fine. He reckons at a lowered speed of up to 850 or so, they should last quite well, nothing to be concerned about, this is good news indeed, especially since 500 is the target! (I wasn't around when he tested them, in fact, I made a point of not being around when he tested them!)

As to what I have been getting up to in the interim, not really that much... We roofed over and covered another almost 90 sq m or so of soon to be workshop, all done in steel and similar, no woodwork involved,... While we were at it, we included a 10m x 6m overhead gantry system, main bearers made from 6" x 6" H sections with a double lifting point beam crawls on the main traverse beam, a second and slightly shorter, heavier duty beam will ride along side the 6m traverse beam about 750mm from it, and paralell with it, to give us up to four lifting points for difficult loads. We pretty much just finished putting up the main beam this evening, and, not to be left sleeping, I quietly snuck off and tested it... I lifted one of my bending brake/ press chassis.... about 500kg or so and it performed flawlessly, the main traverse beam hardly settled at all. At a rough guestimate, I should be able to center lift in excess of 5000kg at center, well above what my lifting tackle and chain blocks can currently handle, so swinging a 4wheel TM2 around should be a breeze.... Here are a few low quality pics to get an idea of the bits and bobs I have suspended currently... http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/20160419 New Gantry and Roof/ (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/20160419 New Gantry and Roof/)

Damn, I just browsed thru the pics and noticed two rather important things....

1 - it has been over a month since I started throwing some steel into the air and managed to get it to stay there...(in the words of the great Douglas Adams: Hovers in the air, like bricks don't!)

And


2 - it is high time I put a coat of paint on the front wall of the house... It looks real crappy!

But... That can wait a little while... there are far more important things to play.....er..... work on... Like Listers and gantries!

Keep on lifting!

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on June 15, 2016, 11:00:19 AM
Hey Guys,

Its been over a month that I have been lurking in the background...doing all things non-lister....Life has just got in the way of the toys!

The gantry system is pretty much completed now, installed about 1.1Kw of neon lighting in the roof to allow for the aging eyesight. I also installed a couple of fittings in the gantry rail proper to detail light the area where a lift happens... This will be quite handy when I start doing the finals on TM2.(This has of course, led me to rewire and redo the lighting in the older section of the workshop, now that I see how bad it actually is...)

TM1 has been running fine of late, 100% WMO with the occasional whiff of Dino to start up for the evening run, I have been a bit remiss in my servicing routine with all the other goings-on, I see that he is about 200hrs overdue for an oil change and filter swop, I need to pull finger and do the necessary, lest the bearing rise up and smite me!

The slightly cooler weather has made for a more tedious start on WMO, so I  am using the small "fuel test tank" to start on... As soon as he fires up, I throw the valves and on with WMO we go....

As to a warm up routine, not much, get him firing, bring him up to revs over about 20 to 30 sec by holding the governor closed partly, when up to revs, give him about another 30 sec of free running, them onto load... (One thing I do, however, is to let the starter motor swing him over with the compression release engaged and the ip full open until the WMO clears the line and Dino hits the injector... It takes about 40 sec or so of turning over for this to happen, the injector starts to "squeak" rather than "crunch"... The WMO dumped into the cylinder is doing no major harm I reckon, just giving an upper cyl lube job as bonus!)

Incidentally, I have found a "simple" solution to my "sump gunk" running... I pushed the timing another 2.5 degrees advanced from standard in about .5 degree increments and monitored the "diesel knock" while warmed up and running... The result, around 22.5 degree timing, similar diesel knock to standard dino, less carbon buildup, similar power output when warm... So far, a happy face is in order!

Enough rambling.... I gotta go play spark monkey in my old workshop roof.... Uggggh!

Keep it spinning!

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on June 26, 2016, 08:19:29 PM
Hey guys...

Just a small update on life in sunny ZA...

Not much been done on lister toys, did manage to throw a can of oil and a filter or two into the beast... only around 200+ hours overdue! I think I must put one of those irritating red "service" lights on the beast, at least that way he wouldn't be so neglected!

There is much to be said for injection timing... with the last advance I made to around 22 btdc, the burn has been much cleaner compared to previous... Has anybody else noticed similar when running wmo and the like? I am keen to hear!

WI still in place, keeping carbon buildup well at bay. I am loathe to pull things apart to check buildup, because at the mo, things are holding together quite well... I noticed that we have just about reached 5500kwh generated since I installed the meter, of this I am indeed happy. I would love to know what the saving has been to the household iro water heating... electricity has been a byproduct pretty much, with water heating playing the greater part of late...

The exhaust stack has been just slightly too hot to hold/touch, about 10 to 20C hotter than the radiator and hot water return pipes, so the heatex's seem to be doing their thing quite well.. the coolant heatex is working very well so far, the main fan on the radiator hardly comes on at all... I found this quite disconcerting initially and it has taken quite a bit of getting used to. One of the items I should have installed immediately, was the small "pilot" fan on the top of the radiator... this fan keeps the thermo syphon going reliably and only does minimal cooling... it is hooked up to a temperature switch at the cylinder head hot water outlet. It kicks in immediately the engine is up to about 85C and remains stunning pretty much on all the time... it moves about as much air as a 3" muffin fan, so no real big time cooling taking place, just enough to keep the coolant circulating reliably...

Anyways... Again I ramble... but before I go, a small word on tig welding... I had forgotten how much fun it was! I have been playing around with some ali welding, trying to get back into practise.... Definitely a case of 'use it or lose it' !

Keep it spinning...
Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on June 27, 2016, 07:16:48 AM

I always find your " Rambling" very interesting and enjoy reading it.  It's good to sit down and read your latest updates.

I might have missed it but could you describe the build of your exhaust HE again please? Do you use the hot water for anything other than normal house hold purposes or you just get really filthy of a day and need a really long shower to clean up?  :0)

Your idea of the small fan is interesting.  This is just a little fan at the top of the Rad to cool a small amount of water so the thing Thermo siphons reliably?
When I had my Roid set up I was really amazed how well The thermo worked having never done it before.  I had an open system where there was a car radiator Turned on end being a cross flow type in teh vehicle. This gave a good top to bottom height which may have helped. I had the top hose "T'd" at the highest point before leveling out to feed the rad. The bleed hose went up about another foot to an open 25L drum.  I was surprised how hot the drum got when there was just a single 19mm  Hose feeding it. I had it there to bleed off any air and make sure the rad was always full with expansion and have a non pressurised system.

When loaded up, I ran one of the original fans through a tail light as a resistor which gave it less than 2A power and the bottom of the rad was barely warm.  I was going to drop the bulb wattage further as the fan was just ticking over but still overkill for the application. When I get round to setting it up again, I'll look at using the hot water for either household use or heating. I'm also keen to try used solar panels for coupling direct to an electric tank.

You were saying before you were using Sludge WMO. Have you got a better source/ supply of oil now or still on the same suspect material?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: buickanddeere on June 27, 2016, 03:57:07 PM
Fans push better than they pull. Placing the cooling fan on the cold air side of the rad will lengthen it's service life.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on June 27, 2016, 04:37:51 PM
Hi Guys,

B&D:

As to push, rather than pull, we will have to agree to disagree in that one!(Particularly in the case of a radiator with narrow finning as I have installed).. I agree, however, that running the fan motor in the cool will make it last longer!

Glort:

Glad to see I am still entertaining!!

The exhaust heatex amounts to a water jacketed 40mm pipe of around 3m long with the outside diameter around 75mm or so. The cool water flows into the jacket area on the "tailpipe" end and exits just before the cylinder head. Water is used only for showers etc, there are 7 plus residents in the household on a daily basis. Within 3 hrs we have around 300L of close to boiling water for ablutions....and yes.... I am generally filthy by day end and cant wait for a nice hot, relaxing shower!!

Spot on with your small fan understanding! There are 2 temp switches on the system, one is at cyl head and controls the small fan, the other is on the top of the radiator and kicks in when the radiator top hits 85C, it seldom comes on, but when it does, it is generally on a sweltering hot "berg wind" type day, and then it is only for a few minutes at a time....

Re the resevoir drum heatup on your system - I reckon the volume of the system was doing a hot/cold cycle and pushing a little hot water into the drum each cycle... the minute the system starts to circulate, water contracts and draws in a bit of cool into the system, only to heat up and expel the hot stuff at the top, which rises to the top of the drum...the cycle starts again....

My current WMO is all but finished, we are on the real dregs at the mo... the fuel processor is only about 1/2 full of real crappy stuff, so no point in running that up....yet... Tomorrow we go grab another 40L small batch to run up on.... I have just been a little busy with other toys lately to do the waste recovery thing....

Tomorrow's another day!!

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on June 29, 2016, 11:23:59 AM
Hi Guys,

B&D:

As to push, rather than pull, we will have to agree to disagree in that one!(Particularly in the case of a radiator with narrow finning as I have installed)..

X2.  In fact I would say that it is completely the other way around.  if the pushed better than they pulled, cars would have electric fans in front of the radiator not behind.


Quote
I agree, however, that running the fan motor in the cool will make it last longer!

That may well be true and it may also depend a lot on the fan in use. I have no real thoughts other than that.

What I do know for a fact is car radiator fans seem to be extremely robust and long lived.
I have a pair on my truck I took off a 10 yo Subaru. I used them to replace the mechanical fan and what a good modification that has proven to be.  I don't have a thermostat on them, they tend to run all the time except when I am on the highway when I remember to turn them off.  Around town they are left on.
They log up big running hours but not had any problems so far.

I also have a couple I put in the windows at home in summer. These tend to run 24/7 for weeks at a time because no matter the temp outside, the rooms they are in that get the full sun are always hotter if left unventilated. at night they bring in a much cooler breeze than the house has been heated to. The hours these things have run up over the last 3 summers I have been using them would surely be more than any normal vehicle would see in service and these things were taken of vehicles that were over 10 YO when I got them!

I have great faith in these fans which is also bolstered by the fact they are only ever sold in my fathers wrecking yard to replace ones accident damaged. Can't ever remember selling one to replace one that stopped working with the exception of a car that ended up underwater and was a farm ute. Even that failed a year after being submerged but it was siezed so who knows.

How much oil a dat are you going through Ed on average and is a better source of WMO difficult for you to get?


It's funny how everyone using WMO tends to get and warn of sludge and water.  The oil we drain at the yard is never that bad. Sure some is a bit thick and very dirty but I have never seen anything sludgy at the bottom of an oil drain pan or drum I have brought home. It just makes me wonder where these vehicles come from and why the service routine is so bad!
I got about 60L the other week from my Brother in law who did an oil change on his boat. Being diesel oil it's nice and thin and it gets changed on a calendar time rather than an engine time basis. On a run basis I think he'd only need to change it about every 3 years!  :0)

We do throw all the oil in together at the yard, engine, trans, brake fluid, steer but never any water/ coolant.  Some mechanics must be effing lazy!
I have been stuffing round and procrastinating setting up my waste oil fired house heater and I intend to run that on WMO to save my veg oil.  For that burner I don't even need to filter the stuff. I could probably strain it through a couple of layers of fly wire but anything that gets through that is going to be fine enough to get through the burner fittings.

I have a couple of Vids on my YT channel where I burn WMO. The idiot comments I get from the greenwashed save the planet Ignorant environmental nazis about recycling and other crap is amazing.
According to some, all you need to do is filter it through some cloth and put it back in the engine.  I wonder how many of them are stupid or even hands on enough to do that with their own Vehicles?

My favorite whinge is about " Heavy Metals" going into the air from WMO burning.  Again another whinge that sounds intelligent but is moronically flawed.
An engine only has to loose a few thou of an inch off the bores ( steel or aluminium) to be stuffed and the same off the bearings which are smaller but do actually contains some metals that cooking utensils aren't made from.  That few thou of metal displaced is captured in the oil filters and divided between them and  20 or more oil changes. It does not take much imagination to envisage how minute the amounts of metal are in any given amount of oil nor the fact than much of that is going to be very non toxic metals like aluminum, copper and steel amount others.

These clowns also ignore the fact that this oil is burnt  by the thousands of gallons every day by vehicles as they just drive along the road. It's also dropped on the road and the thing that is of more concern to me  is the huge amounts of material that come off brakes and clutches.  Not hard to go through a set of pads in a year and there is infinitely more material  lost in a set of ftont pads than there is in probably 20 worn out engines.
Never hear the environmental nazis mentioning that though. They seem to mis or avoid facts and basic things that they can't sensationalise and blow out of proportion for their fear mongering purposes.

You'd think we were burning babies or Kittens Ed the way some of these ignorant twits carry on!    ::)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselgman on June 29, 2016, 02:09:57 PM
Common fans can push equally well as pull. For the most part it is just a matter of changing their rotation and/or orientation to the power source. The vast majority of our generator installations are using pusher fans to exhaust the waste heat out the front of the radiator. The same is true of most air-conditioner condenser fans. It mostly has to do with the desired air flow direction, practicalities of mounting, and little else. On automobile fans, those with radiators in front, the reason for them to pull rather than push is because they would not work well fighting against normal air flow when the vehicle was moving forward. My Mercedes uses a pair of electric fans mounted in front of the radiator rather than behind and they are defined as pushers. I suppose it really becomes a matter of which side of the blades you might be looking at...

dieselgman
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on June 29, 2016, 02:31:55 PM
Hey Glort....

I was bout to ask how many KwH to the k*****n.... but I wont in case I get flamed....

Car fans are indeed robust and strong, for me though, I dont have 12V on the system per se' so they would be a pain to install with txformers/rectifier etc... Easiest was a few scrap 220v low power consumption fans... Probs adds up to less than 150W in total for fans and another 200W or so for water circulation... all in its probs in the region of 1.5A or thereabouts for the 220v line as a max fixed overhead...After this is all taken care of, it still pushes 20A to the db board so, "ja well no fine!" (An old SA saying...)

The WMO I look for is probs the worst of the worst...Why go easy? But seriously though, it is in vastly varying qualities and quantities... Often from open pails forgotten in the back of beyond... I wonder how many dissolved rats I have consumed? That would make the kitty boys happy, I bet!

I run through about 5L of oil a day on an average to short 3hr run... This sees to about an average load of ..... uh.... dunno.... Will have to recheck my spreadsheet for that, but I do remember that I average out to about 600ml per Kwh so going on the grey matter here, its around 5000/600 ... 8.5 kwh.... about 1.6L per hour.... The "Day Tank" gets a top up every 4 to 5 days if we do average runs.... To get the best out of the system, I try and keep the run to 3hrs plus or minus... More than that and water heating becomes inefficient, less than 2 1/2 hrs and water heating is too little... Time things right, and I get the dishwasher on, the ironing done, and the chips fried in one run! (Consecutively of course!) Each of those heavy appliances takes us to around 18A draw total including the household! To try and get the women to understand that only one of the heavy use items can be used at a time is sometimes....no always, a chore...(but a hairdryer doesn't take that much....does it?)

There are plenty of ways to do something for the environment:
Keep traveling costs to 0 by working from home.....Check
Recycle old oils into fuel rather than dumping .... Check
Recycle old equipment and refurbish rather than replace .... Check
Reduce your footprint IRO Grid Water usage..... Check
Reduce your footprint IRO Grid Power Usage .... Check
etc etc etc....Need I go On? .....

I had a "discussion" face to face with one of my "green" friends.... He gave me a bollocking for a wood fired braai we were having.... Until I pointed out to him that his "clean" household cooking either came from coal/diesel or nuke...and to top it off, he came to visit in a nice petrol powered sedan... His one trip out to me burned more energy than 6 months worth of weekend barbecues.... A long silence ensued and the subject changed....(Its amazing to see the look of realization when the facts slowly sink through the brain boulders) .... Lol....

Enough rambling/ranting and raving...As long as we all do our bit to keep old iron going, old fuels burnt cleanly, and minimal sludge dumped into the environment, there should be a green space left for our kids!

Keep it spinning...

Cheerz
Ed

PS - I am not a greenie/bunny hugger/environmental fruit bat.... but.... cleaner is better.... Oh sh!t.... Maybe I am a greenie/bunny hugger/environmental fruit bat.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on June 29, 2016, 02:48:48 PM
Hey GMan...

Well put! .....but...

Consider a plain fan/radiator setup....no shrouds, air ducts etc involved.

Close couple the fan on both a pull and a push scenario(ie the fan blades are in close proximity, identical spacing for each).

The pushing fan will exhaust air both axially and radially due to a higher pressure in the hub area and the centrifugal component of the air being moved...No duct, and the air will recirculate through the blades as not all of it will be able to "fit" through the fins at such a low pressure/velocity..

The pulling fan, will move the same or similar amount of air, but with a somewhat higher percentage going through the radiator fins, possibly because both the radially as well as axially expelled air has to come from somewhere, most easily the other side of the radiator....

Just my warped explanation....

Cheerz
Ed

PS - My roid uses a pull fan....no duct...works better than when I had it the other way round.... My bulldozer on the other hand, uses a push fan....Ducted and keeps the cr@p blowing ahead and away from the operator!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: buickanddeere on June 29, 2016, 03:28:15 PM
Hi Guys,

B&D:

As to push, rather than pull, we will have to agree to disagree in that one!(Particularly in the case of a radiator with narrow finning as I have installed)..

X2.  In fact I would say that it is completely the other way around.  if the pushed better than they pulled, cars would have electric fans in front of the radiator not behind.


Quote
I agree, however, that running the fan motor in the cool will make it last longer!

That may well be true and it may also depend a lot on the fan in use. I have no real thoughts other than that.

What I do know for a fact is car radiator fans seem to be extremely robust and long lived.
I have a pair on my truck I took off a 10 yo Subaru. I used them to replace the mechanical fan and what a good modification that has proven to be.  I don't have a thermostat on them, they tend to run all the time except when I am on the highway when I remember to turn them off.  Around town they are left on.
They log up big running hours but not had any problems so far.

I also have a couple I put in the windows at home in summer. These tend to run 24/7 for weeks at a time because no matter the temp outside, the rooms they are in that get the full sun are always hotter if left unventilated. at night they bring in a much cooler breeze than the house has been heated to. The hours these things have run up over the last 3 summers I have been using them would surely be more than any normal vehicle would see in service and these things were taken of vehicles that were over 10 YO when I got them!

I have great faith in these fans which is also bolstered by the fact they are only ever sold in my fathers wrecking yard to replace ones accident damaged. Can't ever remember selling one to replace one that stopped working with the exception of a car that ended up underwater and was a farm ute. Even that failed a year after being submerged but it was siezed so who knows.

How much oil a dat are you going through Ed on average and is a better source of WMO difficult for you to get?


It's funny how everyone using WMO tends to get and warn of sludge and water.  The oil we drain at the yard is never that bad. Sure some is a bit thick and very dirty but I have never seen anything sludgy at the bottom of an oil drain pan or drum I have brought home. It just makes me wonder where these vehicles come from and why the service routine is so bad!
I got about 60L the other week from my Brother in law who did an oil change on his boat. Being diesel oil it's nice and thin and it gets changed on a calendar time rather than an engine time basis. On a run basis I think he'd only need to change it about every 3 years!  :0)

We do throw all the oil in together at the yard, engine, trans, brake fluid, steer but never any water/ coolant.  Some mechanics must be effing lazy!
I have been stuffing round and procrastinating setting up my waste oil fired house heater and I intend to run that on WMO to save my veg oil.  For that burner I don't even need to filter the stuff. I could probably strain it through a couple of layers of fly wire but anything that gets through that is going to be fine enough to get through the burner fittings.

I have a couple of Vids on my YT channel where I burn WMO. The idiot comments I get from the greenwashed save the planet Ignorant environmental nazis about recycling and other crap is amazing.
According to some, all you need to do is filter it through some cloth and put it back in the engine.  I wonder how many of them are stupid or even hands on enough to do that with their own Vehicles?

My favorite whinge is about " Heavy Metals" going into the air from WMO burning.  Again another whinge that sounds intelligent but is moronically flawed.
An engine only has to loose a few thou of an inch off the bores ( steel or aluminium) to be stuffed and the same off the bearings which are smaller but do actually contains some metals that cooking utensils aren't made from.  That few thou of metal displaced is captured in the oil filters and divided between them and  20 or more oil changes. It does not take much imagination to envisage how minute the amounts of metal are in any given amount of oil nor the fact than much of that is going to be very non toxic metals like aluminum, copper and steel amount others.

These clowns also ignore the fact that this oil is burnt  by the thousands of gallons every day by vehicles as they just drive along the road. It's also dropped on the road and the thing that is of more concern to me  is the huge amounts of material that come off brakes and clutches.  Not hard to go through a set of pads in a year and there is infinitely more material  lost in a set of ftont pads than there is in probably 20 worn out engines.
Never hear the environmental nazis mentioning that though. They seem to mis or avoid facts and basic things that they can't sensationalise and blow out of proportion for their fear mongering purposes.

You'd think we were burning babies or Kittens Ed the way some of these ignorant twits carry on!    ::)


Why not put those vehicle electric fans on an aftermarket thermostat control to start at 220F ? Cleaner combustion, improved fuel efficiency  and longer engine life if operated only when required. In particular with the no stat operation.
   In fact I can't imagine any advantage to operating without a stat.
   It's common knowledge that fans and pumps push better than they pull.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on June 29, 2016, 10:33:29 PM
Hey B&D,

220F might b  a little high for a non pressurised system with minimal glycol to push up the boiling point... even at sea level... 195 to 200 would b a little safer I reckon... I have played the temperature games on my listeroid and found that there is a definite sweet spot to operating at slightly above pure water boiling point.. to get there, I pushed up the glycol content but found a small problem with hydronic cooling due to viscosity.. Until the coolant gets a little warmer than 40 or 50 C, it does not cycle very well and caused localised hot spotting and boiling in the head channels.. spectacular to say the least... let it warm up slowly under minimal load and things work very well, but it is not foolproof... me being the fool... I also played thermostat games and managed to get it tuned up quite well too.. but, for me, this was again not to my wanting as I have no over temp shutdown when things go awry if the thermostat decides to fail closed... I am considering a very simple auto-top-up type of arrangement for the system, as should I have a catastrophic leak/pipe failure, similar things could happen... I like simple, easy and lazy... I am considering a small and open header tank with a float valve that gets topped up from our water mains system, this will T feed into the cylinder head top pipe, should any pipe break in the system, besides the safety feed of course, cool water will flood the engine, make a hell of a puddle and attract attention.... hopefully! No damage through overheat happens, it simply over cools and life goes on...

Agreed regarding pumps etc pushing better than they suck, but that is in a closed system... at best you can only get 1 ATM worth of suck on something, then you get a vacuum... but, from the little bit of practical I have had over the years, I have just found, personally, that radiators are a damn side easier to cool using a plain unducted fan sucking air through, than making up many hours worth of ducting to get the same efficiency by using a push air system...a further benefit, for me anyway, with the roid, is because of the relatively exposed and plain radiator without shrouds and ducts to shield the core, even with the small amount of windage and breeze through and around the radiator, from flywheels and atmospherics, should the main fan fail, unless under close to maximum load, the cooling is sufficient on the average day to keep the boil and seize demons at bay...Bonus!

A properly designed and fully ducted and sealed, fan pressurised system would definitely out perform a fan evacuated system in cooling capability... but that is not what I am talking about... What I am talking about is a minimalistic, fan/radiator pair, no frills, fancies, ducts or other....a suck definitely beats a blow in my books!

Agreed to regarding some form of thermal switching to hold the cold demons back in their stall until they are required... This is particularly evident and witnessed on this Beastie of mine.... pointless for me to cool the coolant colder than the hot water its supposed to be heating(coolant heatex in system)....

Keep it cooking...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: mike90045 on June 29, 2016, 11:40:31 PM
>  We do throw all the oil in together at the yard, engine, trans, brake fluid, steer but never any water/ coolant.


How well does brake fluid fare in the mix?  I thought it was some other sort of stuff, because it sucks water out of the air if it can.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on June 30, 2016, 12:42:28 AM
>  We do throw all the oil in together at the yard, engine, trans, brake fluid, steer but never any water/ coolant.


How well does brake fluid fare in the mix?  I thought it was some other sort of stuff, because it sucks water out of the air if it can.

Never noticed any problems or separation. Obviously the amount of brake fluid is a tiny proportion to that of the engine oil and PS fluid.  Once it's drained and put in a drum, it's sealed to keep the rain water and everything else out as it's stored outside. Engine oil won't support dissolved water so it would drop out in the drum and could be avoided but I have never seen any free water like that so far.
Usually though, I pump the oil off from the top so as to get the lighter fractions and let any rubbish that is in the oil settle to the bottom. Settling is a basic and very effective way of cleaning WVO and a habit I use for WMO as well.
About every 12 months the drum is collected and replaced with a clean one so any rubbish or water goes with it.

If I were like ED and using the WMO for engine fuel I'd probably be a lot more careful than I am, I'd be filtering it to 5Um for a start and I'd test for water but for MY purposes of putting it in waste oil burners the stuff is fine.  I suspect if I did take the oil to a more refined level the water if any would be very easy avoided but I really don't think the hygroscopic effect would be significant when the fluid is mixed in and has limited surface area in a sealed drum.

In my long experience with Veg oil which is also very hygroscopic, unless there is air movement in a drum, even having something like a 200L drum with an open top slows the water uptake greatly because the amount of air movement and the humidity in it is greatly reduced over having say an open bucket of the stuff exposed to the air.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: buickanddeere on June 30, 2016, 01:03:29 AM
  I made a mistake reading your post and thought there was no mechanical water thermostat on the truck.
  Of course the none pressurized roid is about limited to 210F or so even with a 50/50 mix.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on July 02, 2016, 09:14:51 AM
Hey guys,

After successfully pushing the wrong button and deleting the post I was busy with......

A rough guestimate of energy harvesting via hot water...(approximate numbers from yesterday's run, forgive me if I cocked up the calcs..)

Total water volume 300l
Start temp- 8c
End temp- 68c
Time taken-6 hrs
Energy-21kw total
Equates to about 3kwh ex exhaust and coolant recovery...

But.... temp was measured at tap after about 30m of uninsulated basement and outdoor copper run... and during the test there were a couple of showers and loads of dishes done... probably equates to around another 100l or so of cold water added to the system...Engine electrical loads were variable, but averaging at about 2.5kwh, fuel consumption is around 600ml per kWh of electrical produced...

It would be interesting to see the 'actual' energy harvesting if I could run the system in an off line mode without the variables creeping in...

Keep it cooking...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 05, 2016, 11:15:13 AM
Hey Guys,

Still here, still spinning over(slowly).... But a wee question about filter socks.....

I am building a pump from an old pneumatic cylinder, to transfer oil from collection drums through a sock filter I have built up, to go into final settling tanks prior to use. My question could be answered by the manufacturers of the sock filters, in fact they have, but I would rather trust you lads with the experience out there....

The sock filter, according to specs given, is easily capable of a running input pressure of around 2 bar. I would like to hear what pressure you experts are using as an input, to get the best particle retention on your sock filters/filter media.....

Keep it pumping....

Regds
Ed

PS - If anybody would like to see my enormously over designed  sock filter and housing, lemme know and I will post a few pics....
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: Hugh Conway on September 06, 2016, 12:44:40 AM
Ed, I don't know anything about sock filters and waste oil, but can tell you that we use a 20 micron sock filter at about 4 bar in a clients deep well pumping system. This is within spec for potable water systems. The 4 bar is system pressure rather than delta P.
Cheers,Hugh
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 06, 2016, 09:25:29 AM
Hey Hugh,

Noted, the suppliers reckon up to about 4-8bar too... with a max delta of about 3 (this was guessed by them I think).... I reckon 2 bar should be safe enough to prevent a rupture, just concerned about material stretching and opening up the weave.... They reckon the filters are around 1-2 micron, but I have my doubts.... So far on low pressure, gravity fed filtration, they seem to work quite well, but I need to speed up the process a bit...

Cheers
Ed


Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on September 07, 2016, 12:10:19 AM
Ed, 

After having done the oil thing for 13 years running my vehicles and assorted engines, I would suggest you are probably tackling this the wrong way round.

Settling is a great advantage BEFORE filtering.  The longer you leave the stuff alone, the less problems you will have with filtering and the longer your filters will last. and I'm talking 10-20X on the same oil.  If I'm real short and don't have time to settle,  I run the oil through some cloth stretched over a 44 gallon drum as a pre filter.  I bought a roll of felt cheap off fleabay years ago for this but pretty much any fabric will do.  I generally run the first lot through twice to make sure the fabric has a coat of fat/ dirt/ sludge which is the real determination of filtering.  Yes, may take all night for 20L but that's OK, what you get out takes no time through your primary filter and you can put through a shipload before the filter blocks.

If you can pre- settle the oil though, so much better. You'll get far less dirt and water if that is ever a problem.  Just take the clean THIN oil off the top and leave the crap in the bottom for Burners, fire lighting, fence post treatment etc.

I did used to use Filter socks but they were harder to get for me than 10" water filter inserts and with teh settling, I get over 2500L through a water filter at about 1/3rd the price it cost me for the socks the most part being freight which was the tick off.  I would say from a lot of experience that 2 bar is very conservative. Those things are tougher than they look by far.  I had them running at 40 PSI and never had one fail although I did have a few blow off my home made filter holder till I worked out a way to hold them on. The bags would be hard as tyres at that pressure but they would still block and hole the pressure.  The weave on the thngs is very tough and I did see a chart from the supplier I used that specified stretch at certain pressures but the increase in micron rating was next to nothing and the pressure was high.

I also used to hot filter at 50oC and frequently a bit over.  Made the oil flow better being Veg oil and eliminated any problem with fats which will plug a filter in no time at all. Didn't  seem to affect the bag though.

As for the pressure pushing the dirt through, doesn't seem to work that way.  After the first batch which I always re cycle to make sure I have a bit of dirt or now fat on the filter surface, I think the things start doing their real filtering and the dirt just locks into place and doesn't much move. Bit like a blockage in a pipe, the more pressure behind it the tighter it seals. Remove the pressure and give it a prod from the other side and it comes right out.  I think the bags work the same, pressure holds the dirt and traps it rather than shoves it through.  Least that's the conclusion I came to.

This is an early vid of my filtration setup using the filter bags. I recirculated the oil mainly to get it dry. As the pump has excess capacity, I figured may as give it more than one pass through the Filter. On that setup I had the Water filter on the final output to ensure all the oil was clean. Was it ever!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sPLI8QQUwc

This Vid reflects my current setup better. Pretty much the same thing only I use the household water filters now. They do a great job and are a lot cheaper for me but don't have the dirt holding capacity.  With pre settling or filtering, I'm not complaining about putting 2500l+ though the things before I have to change them out.  You can also see the ad hock but long serving pre filter setup in this Vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQL5ff9ICUs

The oil I'm getting through this setup lets me run the onboard filter over 6 Months. It might go 12 If I didn't get pedantic and change the thing before it blocked.  I go through a LOT of oil in 6 months in my truck, far more than you could get a lister to chew through running it 24/7.  :0)

Another thing I do ed which may not be practical for you, I tend to have as much oil settling as I can. When I was really going through it I had 4000L sitting round at all times.  I would process 1000L, an IBC full, then I may not have to process for another month or 2. People seem to think you sit round all day doing this but if I'm hanging round the house mowing lawns etc and can keep up with the processor, I can knock over 1000L in a day while doing other things.  The output determination is if I remember to come back and reload the thing because in  spring/ summer  I can turn a batch of 200L every hour very easily. I then put all the greasy gear away till I need another lot and just enjoy filling up in between.  Of course I collect what I need to to refil the settling tank and it's doing it's thing while I'm driving clean handed, no cost and very happy.   

:0)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 07, 2016, 01:39:01 PM
Hey Glort,

I agree re the settling time, the longer the better!! No question about it!!

Currently I am not carrying a large stock of WMO due to storage constraints, I can only store about 4 to 600 L of oil to recycle at any given time.

The "system" I currently use is loosely as follows:

Oil arrives in 200L or smaller containers, these are decanted into an upright 200L settling drum.
After as long a settling time as is possible, minimum of 7 days, the top 2/3 is pumped off through a filter into the "Usage" tank.(Not really long enough, I know, but it is the best I can do at the moment.)

The usage tank is a 200L drum, horizontal, but the bottom is tilted away from the exit, leaving around 20L or slightly more for crap to roll to the back.(The really fine stuff separates out over here, as it takes a few weeks to go through the batch.)

When the drum approaches empty, it gets tilted 20deg or so forward, left to settle for a day or so, then the sludge/sediment is drained till good oil shows at the tap. This is then returned to the backward slope and the drum is refilled with "new" old oil...

The settling drum gets its lower reaches drained every few refills - this goes into the fuel heater/stirrer/filter machine...Around 60 or so L at a time... The residue from the machine goes into a "really really really bad oil plastic drum" - this gunk drum has not filled up yet and I have processed a good few 1000 L so far....(Anybody want some mineral oil based sandwich spread?)

What I have found in the longish term so far, is that the filtration takes quite a while when using gravity. I am hoping to speed this up by using a single cylinder pneumatic cylinder as a pump. Effectively, how I am going to do it: one side of the cylinder is a piston pump pumping the oil, The shaft side of the cylinder will be tethered with a spring return and charged with compressed air for the power stroke to push the oil through a rather large filter unit I have constructed. When the power stroke is done, the shaft hits a toggle and exhausts the air for the ram to be pulled back by spring tension, recharging the pump side of the ram. Once pulled back fully, it hits the toggle and the cycle starts again...

I have elected to go low speed piston pump for a few reasons - the primary being that any dirt clumps or water in the fuel will not be broken down into smaller units, particularly the water. I have found that a sure way to clog a low pressure filter sock system is to put emulsified oil/water through it. Flow stops almost immediately. Secondly, pressure can be regulated VERY VERY easily by regulating the input air pressure. Thirdly, and probably most importantly, should the flow through the filter be restricted, it is not a truly "positive displacement" type system because of the air drive I am using, so no pressure relief equipment will be used in the contaminated oil flow...Should flow stop, the pump simply stalls....(Another, more important reason for me is that there is no way on this planet that I want to stuff up a good, working, hydraulic gear pump with old sh!tty oil... I am way too tight-arsed....)

What I am hoping to achieve is a reasonably easy and relatively quick filter method using the available junk I have lying around!

Lets see how it pans out!!

Comments appreciated!

Cheerz
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: BruceM on September 07, 2016, 04:51:26 PM
I enjoyed reading about your proposed pneumatic cylinder based pump, Ed.  I hope you'll post a picture or two when you get it going.  I use a pneumatic diaphram pump I got used on the cheap to transfer my fuel to my gravity feed tank...but see that these pumps seem to be very expensive now, even used on ebay.  Air cylinders are often to be had quite cheaply used and using one as a pump as you suggest is very appealing. Since you're using used motor oil you should be fine re: the Buna rubber O-ring seals.  Veggie oil wrecks most rubber very quickly...a lesson I learned the hard way when when I was running biodiesel.  I bought a cheap manual rotary transfer pump- worked great; went to use it two weeks later and it would no longer pump- all the seals were gone.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on September 08, 2016, 05:27:00 AM

As usual Ed, your engineering skill and prowess come to the Fore.  Soundls like a really well thought out system.... way beyond my skill or patience level.

I have mainly used large impeller water pumps for this sort of thing on oil. The bigger the impeller with the coarser blades on the impeller the better. The small " Turbo" style pumps that have impellers that look like slits cut with a hacksaw width blade work great on water but are useless on oil. The bigger the turbine you can get, the better.
I just use these with some sort of by pass.  Even a small bleed will do as you need some flow to stop the pump overheating. This is one reason why I have the filtration and Drying jet going at the same time. If the filter blocks, there is still plenty of flow through the pump.

My favourite pumps for oil have been... oil pumps!
Specifically, the Small block Chev Type. Must have converted 15-20 of them now and they are great.  Seen a lot of them done on YT but everyone else uses at least one of the original small ports on them which are under half inch.  I drill out the sides of the pump right in front of the gears and put in 1" fittings which I weld in rather than use JB on. I block the pressure by pass with expxy and cut off the ear that bolts onto the block and weld it up as well.  I give the pump a boost by shaving the body to get a nice close fit of the end plate to the rotors.  Really moves some oil but will also stall about any motor if they hit a blockage.  Would be fun to put one on a little diesel engine and  see what sort of pressure I could get out of one.  I think it would be substantial.

As far as flow goes, I get about 80L/ min out of mine when I drive it with a 300W scooter pump.  I have put bigger motors on it but the flow was not much more at all even with more revs and power.  Probably comes down to hose length and resistance etc.  That said, I usualy run the motor on 12V instead of 24 as I still get about 50L a min only the thing is much quieter and the motor dosen't get as warm.
One mistake I made early on as trying to align the jaw couplings I use as accurate as possible. Do that and the gears in the pump fairly scream under load.  I have found that if I can temporarily mount the pump and /or motor so they can move and give them a run, they will self align.... into an offset position.

When the pumps are under load, they don't like to be perfectly aligned. Maybe because all the pumps I have done bar a few have been new they have some wear which needs the offset and I don't remember trying the new ones, just set them up as all the rest. You skew them a bit in one direction, Can't remember if it is the thrust or offset side now and they run real quiet with no resistance.
I have looked for a long time for a better pump but unsure if I have found one. I did look at roller pumps ( hy-pro?)  but while their flow seemed better, their size, HP input and price was not advantageous.  I read of one person that had one and he wasn't happy.They also seemed to need a LOT of HP for their output and another thing was they used big shaft diameters which greatly increased the setup cost.

I spoke to one guy on the net that was using them for veg and he wasn't all that impressed.  Was interested in the Chev pump setup which he ended up doing. I guess outright performance over practicality has to be kept in mind.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 08, 2016, 11:21:55 AM
Hey Bruce/Glort,

Bruce: No problem re the pics, I will post some when the time comes...most of the system is in "distributed processing mode" as it now stands....ie I am have most of the junk spread around the workshop and not in one place(except the filter unit, that is in use already.)

Glort: You make me blush....you have a far higher opinion of my capabilities than I do!

Centrifugal pumps are certainly an option - If the cr@p is already suspended in the good stuff and it is not viable to settle it out because of minimum SG differences et al... I am trying this piston pump setup out to try and keep the dirt "together" and not mix it in or break it down any further...Particularly because, as mentioned previously, I just dont have the facilities for longer settling at present.....

Gear pumps work a treat! they are awesome little machines that can really deliver - I think your flow restrictions you have come up against are more to do with cavitation due to input side restrictions than anything else... a sure way to slow down the flow on the little buggers is to restrict the input, even marginally, it makes a BIG difference....

Roller pumps are pretty cool too... Merc has a 12v unit that is "inside tank" for their sedans.... nicely engineered, but pretty useless on liquids with higher visco than diesel if you need lots of flow...again, they starve due to in port size...

Possibly the used pumps have already "worn in" from an alignment perspective - change that, and you will be quite tight and noisy until they wear into their new position....In fact, I have seen similar on badly aligned hydraulic power packs in the past...Do the service, sort out the shaft alignment and they are noisy as hell...creep the motor back towards the out of alignment "where it was running before" position and thing quiet down....Go figure....

Anyways....I ramble again...

Let me get off my butt and go and put some junk together into something usable....

Keep it pumping...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 15, 2016, 12:44:31 PM
Hey Guys,

Hooked up the "pump" a few days ago and gave it a brief test... Had to kludge together a multitude of springs for the suction return stroke, this gunk that I am pumping is quite "thick" to put it mildly... The pump works a treat, was doing it on a "manual" control type cycle by simply blowing 20psi air into the bugger with a blow gun as and when required. It displaces around 1 1/2 Liters per stroke, nice and smooth, with only one minor drawback - The cylinder I am using has(had) a built in "End Stroke Damper" which is internally ported to a small, adjustable orifice on the end plates. Nothing that a quick strip down(4 Bolts), remove the buffer seal(One dig with a screwdriver), re-assembly(4 bolts) and continue, didn't sort out...

Sounds simple, quick and easy.... It was!! (Now the difficult thing is to clean up the area where I stripped it down... I am sure that they use old sump oil in bubble-jet printer cartridges... This stuff doesn't so much wipe-up as "smear" to give everything in close proximity a dull black shine....but that's another story...)

The filter seems to be performing well(at this stage), the next task is to put a semi automated air feed system onto the pump and start pumping! (Possibly a pressure gauge on the output might be a good thing too.... Just to ensure that things are running within the filters' limits....)

Enough Rambling....

Lemme carry on trying to navigate the wide account-an-seas of international funds transfer to try and get some Lister spares....

Keep it pumping...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: BruceM on September 16, 2016, 02:24:22 AM
1.5 liters per stroke- that's a big air cylinder!  I'm looking forward to seeing more about your air cylinder based pump, Ed!

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 16, 2016, 03:41:28 PM
Yep Bruce...

Its quite "large" .... Considering the stroke is only a little over and inch or two!!

Cheerz
E
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 19, 2016, 02:38:10 PM
Hey Guys,

Another day in paradise!!

Eventually got round to doing the much awaited cylinder head swop-out... This happened because my temp valve job started to get a little bit "blowey" and causing me to lose a bit of power under heavy load. (The temp job has lasted about 1000hrs, so I cant really complain...)

While I had the head off(or just before actually) I employed my much vaunted "Resonance via Impact Induction" decarboning regime on the first 3m or so of exhaust... Spectacular to say the least!! ... Chunks of black shite erupted from the end of the pipe.... All over me, the driveway, the .... Well, you get my drift... I can't help it, I am a slow learner.... What I did find interesting, was the exhaust blocking up virtually solid on the last bend before it hits the building-fixed main upright.... This resulted in a rather interesting phenomenon.... The overall aperture that wasnt blocked was in the region of around 1/4" worth of gas passage remaining... The back-pressure must have been quite immense... Almost instantly the engine got the worst diesel knock I have EVER heard... So much so, that I thought the thing was about to throw a rod!

I immediately shut down fuel and coasted it to a virtual stop, ticking over slowly under hand control.... No more knock... Allowed it to speed up slowly, still no knock.... As I allowed it to come up to almost full revs, the knock started and became rapidly worse...

What I surmise was happening, is that the immense back-pressure builds up and forces the exhaust valve slightly open during the intake stroke, this admits very hot gas into the cylinder on the stroke and when the fuel hits this overly hot mixture on the compression stroke, detonation, rather than controlled combustion, occurs... (I did remove the head just after this and I did check... No evidence of valves hitting the piston crown, or heavy carbon chunks being pulverised either.) The combustion chamber/head inner/piston crown/exhaust port shows relatively little carbon deposit(Less than .5mm all round) after about 1000hrs of gunk fuel being put through it.... Old man hydro is doing his job!! (Cant say the same for the exhaust though - as this unit has an "aftercooler heatex", I am picking up quite a bit of carbon in the pipework!)

Enough rambling...

Keep it spinning..
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on September 19, 2016, 04:12:49 PM

If I understand Correctly ( which is never a given) I'm not surprised your exhaust is blocking where it is.
I have found that cool exhausts and Chimineys do that. It takes around 600oC to burn off carbon and as you wouldn't be getting that anywhere ( I hope!!)  the next best remedy is the WI.
I think you may need to do it boat style Ed, have a water feed into the exhaust itself.

It may also mean you could use more water in your engine too!
I have just ordered a couple of little 12V dosing pumps from Fleabay and a speed controller. The little pumps will do up to 300 mL min which is more than enough for WI on a Lister. You could control these things by speed or by interval with a Cycle timer. I have a few of these also from Fleabay for about $5  ea and they work well. I have used them on fuel pumps on oil burners to control the heat and while they cause a pulse in that application, they still give an over all heat output which is all I need.

Perhaps a water feed into the exhaust  and/ or something more constant on the engine would help? The WI on my vehicle is Boost controlled so whenever the loud pedal is depressed to any consequence, the thing gets a shot of water, even just through the gears.

I know what you mean about the soot formation blocking pipes.  Lat year I found out my father had never had the Chiminey on his slow combustion fire place cleaned since he had it installed.
I got up and had a look and it was about the same, 1/4 flow area remaining in a 5" pipe.  I found some long rod and a bit of bike chain which I welded together and spun it  with a cordless drill.  What a job that was!
Damn near filled the stove with soot.  I put an Industrial Vac at the top of the chimminey before I opened the stove door so any soot went up and not into the house.  Managed to clean the stove without the rest of the place going black.

The buildup was amazing though and had it caught alight.....

Then again, that's how my Uncle intentionally cleans his stove. Built his own  Flue out of thick wall pipe, 3 layers of it with a large cavity between the 2nd and 3rd and also has the outer covered in some sort of industrial  insulation.  Every so often he stokes the thing with softwood and opens it up full tilt and the thing fairly roars with a jet like flame out the top.  When it all dies down the Chimney is clean.
Scary way to do it but he took things into account and if the place hasn't burned down in 32 years of him doing it, guess it's not going to.

The other thing that may help your exhaust is run a hot mix every now and then... 15% ULP in your sump sludge. I have found that burns much cleaner than straight oil of any type.
The best cleaner I found however is Methanol in the WI. The vehicle still runs much better when you are back to water than what it did before and as I run water constantly, I can only put it down to the Meth cleaning out the exhaust and Muffler.  The effect goes away after a while which I presume is things downstream of the engine coking up again.
Lot of bends and sometimes small passages in a muffler that could soot up.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 20, 2016, 10:33:48 AM
Hey Glort!

U r a STAR!!!

Brilliant Idea with the chain!! Most of my runs are fairly straight with T pieces every now and then, most runs have access from one end via a T...

The chain Idea will work brilliantly!! I have boiler tube brushes, but I only use them where I have an "exit" on the pipe being cleaned - they "Ratchet" into the pipe and can only be reversed mid stroke with a hell of an effort and ultimately stuffed up by doing so....

WI into the pipe has been tried, with great success to the cleaning, but a few frowns (euphemistically speaking) from the residents of the household....Washing turns a a marvelous spotty black/grey, white cars go spotty black/grey....even the dogs!

My problems with the carbon buildup occurred due to the water feed being turned down a little too low I think... I have been boosting it a bit and the "thump-thump" from the exhaust end is becoming more evident.... I am considering a intermittent dosing system, semi automated... Just need to find a low pressure water solenoid valve that runs at 220v - I must have one round here somewhere...

What I am considering doing is hooking the 220v high heat fan output to the solenoid as well as the fan - when TM hits top temperature, as well as the fan kicking in, the flood gates open too(in a regulated fashion of course) this will allow a slightly higher than normal dose of water to be admitted, easy to regulate via a small needle valve, this will not only cool, but steam clean the innards as well when at top temp. I have found that the running temp can be easily regulated by the water flow, fine tuned so as to speak. The problems occur when the load varies and the water flow doesnt - so what I am planning to do is put a minimal trickle in as per previous for low power running, but boosting it when the temp spikes due to high load... When in place, it shouldn't need much human input at all... Also no electronics, just simple electrical stuff, hooking onto what is already there...

Your thoughts?

Keep it steamin'.....

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on September 20, 2016, 05:20:03 PM

WI into the pipe has been tried, with great success to the cleaning, but a few frowns (euphemistically speaking) from the residents of the household....Washing turns a a marvelous spotty black/grey, white cars go spotty black/grey....even the dogs!

HAHAHAHAH!

We are so alike!
I once had my little Puppies, 2 Rotties and a Shepherd, all around 50 Kg each, covered from head to toe in veg oil. They got into a drum after knocking it over and after lapping up their fill they thought they would roll round in it.  When my wife saw them, she thought they had been the victims of some sort of Cruelty attack. They were covered in grass and sticks and every bit of rubbish imaginable. Happy as anything though.  Luckily I had a week before picked up a drum of industrial dish washing detergent.  I used about 10L of it cleaning those dogs which took hours not to mention the clean up of the spilt oil!

The chain Idea I got from cleaning roots out of a drain. I once mounted some Conduit on the end of a 1HP electric Motor and on the other end I had some lengths of Chain saw Chain. Went through the roots and accumulated bog and everything else quite well. Bit of a hand full to hang onto when the conduit got a bit of a flex and wobbble up but did the job.  If you really want to tear into something, use chainsaw chain pieces!


Quote
What I am considering doing is hooking the 220v high heat fan output to the solenoid as well as the fan - when TM hits top temperature, as well as the fan kicking in, the flood gates open too(in a regulated fashion of course) this will allow a slightly higher than normal dose of water to be admitted, easy to regulate via a small needle valve, this will not only cool, but steam clean the innards as well when at top temp. I have found that the running temp can be easily regulated by the water flow, fine tuned so as to speak. The problems occur when the load varies and the water flow doesnt - so what I am planning to do is put a minimal trickle in as per previous for low power running, but boosting it when the temp spikes due to high load... When in place, it shouldn't need much human input at all... Also no electronics, just simple electrical stuff, hooking onto what is already there...

Sounds a winner to me!

You are right about the flow that's for sure.  I can ajust my WI to a point the engine stumbles at low load/ Revs but will happily take all it can get up high. I turn it up often when I am going to the country to see my dad and the thing will sit at High RPM for 3 hours.  When I hit those hills, the water kicks in and off we go.  When I get off the highway, If I short change the gears and boot the thing up at low revs, It will buck and remind me it's set for revving not lugging.  For High speed running the thing will burn more water than Fuel which seems amazing but done it many times.

I remember a mate had a 2 Stage water injection on his ute.  First stage was straight water and the 2nd stage when it got to a boost level it only ever did under hi power requirements was to hit a separate pump from a tank containing a Meth/ water mix.  He also monitored his inlet temps. The wi alone could drop the post inter cooler temps 80oC and the 2nd stage  even more although for some reason the gauge tended to flutter then so we were never sure. I reckon it was almost 100o which my mate thought impossible but I'm pretty sure of it.

Like on my old Merc, this thing had the unusual tendency to run Cooler under full power thanks to the WI than it did in cruise mode with a load on.  I used to tow a trailer round that wasn't so heavy but had a large frontal area. I dubbed the thing the Parachute. anything over 80 kmh was like pulling the hand brake on.  When Cruising at the highway speed of 100 the old merc would be running right at the high end of the scale.  Bury your foot in it climbing up a hill  ( or a 1o rise which seemed like a mountain towing that trailer in that old car) and you could feel the surge of power as the WI with the meth kicked in and see the temp dropped. That car was non turbo so I made the throttle pedal itself the switch. Just put a piece of aluminium plate on the plastic throttle stop under the loud pedal as a contact and switched the pump that way. When the bared metal throttle pedal arm hit the plate, it switched the negative side of the pump. Worked a treat but only at full tilt.

I used to speed up to cool the engine down and wondered if I ever got pulled over, if the cop would really believe me when I told him going faster made the engine cool down.  Not that it would have mattered. I'd have still got nailed.

That car did catch fire once.
I had a leak in the exhaust that was blowing onto the floor of the car.  It was back over the rear Drive shafts and I didn't worry about it for a few weeks as I was only running around and the floor wasn't getting very warm.
One day when towing the trailer on the highway I looked behind me and saw all this smoke. I was worried I'd broke the engine but it was running fine. I went along a bit watching temp and oil pressure and then the smoke got real bad and I pulled over. As I went round the back of the car I saw flames licking out so got the family out in about 0.3 of a sec.  Sticking my head down and well back I could see all these glowing embers like charcoal and I knew what had happened.  All the carbon had built up on the floor running round as it was a bit over fuelled on the pump and the hot exhaust from towing and having the thing running hard had caused it to catch alight and the air fanned it up like coal in a blacksmiths forge.

Lucky we had a load of soft drink with us so I got a bottle of that and shook it up and squirted it on the fire which put it out pretty quick, probably helped by the Co2 Content. Couple more and it was well drowned and everything cooled off.
I was assessing the damage and checking things like the carpet inside and brake lines etc and thinking what else to be wary of.  There was a soft piece of fuel line that had been burned through just enough to start dripping or squirting thanks to the rear mounted electric fuel pump I had installed so always carrying enough hose to redo the entinre fuel line, I replaced the 5" or cremated stuff  which wasn't too hard to get to.
We had been there a while and a fire engine went screaming past which seemed odd as we were in a stretch of the highway where I knew there were no turnoffs for a fair way.  A few minutes later we saw the thing going back on the other side of the road.  We laughed and said hope the place is still there when they find where they are going.  I unbolted the exhaust just after the hole to reduce the back pressure and wrapped the vented section with some aluminium foil left over from the sandwiches and clamped it with a hose clamp as a temp fix till I got home.  With the direction of the gas going harmlessly down to the road and the muffler put in the trailer, I was ready to head off. Just as we were getting into the car, the fire engine pulled up behind us.

Apparently there were some flames out the back of the car as we pulled up and someone going the other way saw them and called the fire brigade. They just got a call of a car on fire but by the time they got to us it was all over and when we didn't try to hail them or pay all that much attention they continued on.  They had a rough idea where the burning car should be so after they got so far down they turned around and came back looking on the other side. Finding nothing the dispatchers called the person that reported the call and were told of a Yellow car with a big trailer. They knew where that was so came back to us to check everything was OK.
They were cool with everything and interested in my explanation. They saw all the carbon I had washed and then belted from the floor on the road and said that was undoubtedly the problem. Apparently it is known to happen on trucks where the exhaust gets full of carbon then they have a big load up a hill or something and the exhaust turns into a flame thrower and can set the load behind alight.

I wasn't that concerned about the leak because it wasn't very loud at all and there was no smell of exhaust coming into the car which being a vegger, I definitely would have smelled. I had got another exhaust from a friend  the day before and was going to put it on during the week.

Maybe extra water when the thing gets hot is the wrong way to go Ed?  Have it so when the fan kicks in, a gas blowtorch lights on the pipe close to the engine and you can let it burn itself out!.
Works for my uncle and it would give your heatex a good Boost!   ;D
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: mike90045 on September 21, 2016, 07:26:13 AM
Great.  Now I wonder if I have to pull my muffler and swab the pipe every other year. (which should have been last year ! )
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 21, 2016, 09:49:01 AM
Hey Glort/Mike,

Hmm....That gas blowtorch idea could be fun.... Especially with the dry grass only about 10 to 15m away from the exhaust outlet...

Picture the scene:
A Lister thumping away romantically in the background... A nice cold beverage as the sun goes down... A warm glowing fire.... No fireplace....  ::)

I think I am gonna have to stick to the colder methods of decarboning for a while..... Dunno why.... Just this little voice.....

Mike, a sure way to see if you need to clear the pipes - "Just Listen" - if there isn't, or is very little, exhaust pulse at the outlet and the exhaust sounds more of a jet than a pulse, its probably time... that's what I have picked up on my system.... Another telltale is the gradual appearance of soot from any clamped joint as back-pressure builds up... That was another symptom I ignored for a while....

Strangely enough, there was another symptom that reared its head - Not sure it is related, but maybe... Sump Oil consumption - Not sure if it was a combination of the valves needing attention as well as a clogged exhaust stack, but the beast has been a little thirsty for sump oil for a while.. He has needed a top off on the oil level every other day or so, after around 6 to 10 hrs of running... Since doing the Cylinder head swap and de-carbon, (The Cylinder was not removed, nor were rings exposed during the operation) TM hasn't needed to be topped off at all...  This usage would normally indicate excessive sump pressure or a stuck CC breather valve or perhaps even worn or suck oil control rings, but they have been in good order and not touched during the last maintenance spell, so nothing changed there... I did notice, a long while back, that excessively loose and sloppy valve clearances caused a marked spike in oil consumption when a rocker bush seized and failed.... At the time, I wrote it off to a "glitch in the matrix" and thought nothing further of it.. Anybody else had a similar experience?

Lets see whether the "Matrix Stabilizes" and oil consumption lowers long term....

Keep it thumping.....

Cheers
Ed

PS....Finally found the pic of a thumpmonster I liked!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 22, 2016, 09:22:56 AM
Hey Guys,

Here are some pics of TM1's Head and combustion areas I took yesterday... Not great quality, but it gives some idea of the (lack of) carbon and deposit buildup after running around 1k hrs or so on virtually 100% WMO ... The water induction on the inlet is doing a sterling job of keeping most of the crud at bay....

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 COV Plug and Head after 1000hr WMO Running 20160921 (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 COV Plug and Head after 1000hr WMO Running 20160921)

Overall, I am more than satisfied. The carbon deposits are more of a problem in the exhaust runs than in the engine itself.

What is of interest is the way that the exhaust valve has backed into the head, an old problem, and the main one that made me take the head off to get sorted. Around 1k hrs ago, the valve and seat had started to fail, a temp reseat job was done with only the basic tools I have(Barring a lathe that I used to cut the valve face) and it has survived quite well....

Cheers
Ed

PS - Some interesting stats, bits n' bobs' I have on record to date:

Total Runtime: 2504hrs
Fuel Usage: 3516L, mostly WMO
L/KwH: Currently 0.598
KwH/L:Currently 1.672
L/Hr:Currently 1.404
KwH Last Run Session 2.33
Total KwH Produced to date: 5880

Total water heating LPG estimated saved over 14mo Period: 21 x 14Kg Bottles

Fuel Used: WMO / Contaminated and recycled Diesel, Thinners, Petrol, ATF, Transformer Oil, Paraffin, Various other grades of mineral oil, WVO... if its liquid, oil based and burns, it gets used. (Sometimes, if it just burns its good enough!!)

Residual oils that are badly contaminated with water and coolant left on hand after recycling 3500L of gunk - <200L (Soon to be gone through again and more reclaimed)

Most common used spares for maintenance - Fuel and oil filters.

Other maintenance spares used: 1 x set rings, 2xhead gaskets/Oil pump seal/IP elements x 2

Warranty spares used: 1x Crankshaft/1xBig end Bearing

Highlights(The things that I remember most):
Crank failure at 1500hrs due to bad lube oil standpipes.
Vibration issues and balancing of flywheels
Finding the best injector timing position for WMO
Water injection Installation
Electric starting
Heat Recovery from Exhaust and Coolant


And....

of course....

Lots of FUN!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on September 22, 2016, 01:42:52 PM
PS - Some interesting stats, bits n' bobs' I have on record to date:

Total Runtime: 2504hrs
Fuel Usage: 3516L, mostly WMO
L/KwH: Currently 0.598
KwH/L:Currently 1.672
L/Hr:Currently 1.404
KwH Last Run Session 2.33
Total KwH Produced to date: 5880

Total water heating LPG estimated saved over 14mo Period: 21 x 14Kg Bottles

Fuel Used: WMO / Contaminated and recycled Diesel, Thinners, Petrol, ATF, Transformer Oil, Paraffin, Various other grades of mineral oil, WVO... if its liquid, oil based and burns, it gets used. (Sometimes, if it just burns its good enough!!)

Lots of FUN!

Ya know ed, one thing I look forward to in my day is coming on here and seeing you have made a post.
Always interesting, always entertaining and always educational.
You delivered this time Buddy!

They are some figures to ponder!
The one that stands out to me is 3500L of fuel burnt.  That's a lot of effing fuel for a " Little" engine like that. I think my best record to date is around 5000L /yr in my truck.  Somehow, 3500L in a lister seems so much more substantial.

To look at some of your stats from other angles....

Total Runtime: 2504hrs    Over 104 days or 3 Months non stop running.

Fuel Usage: 3516L, mostly WMO     3.5 IBC's Full. WOW!  I can see that as a real clear Vision in my mind. I have 5 IBC's here so I know what they hold real well!

Total KwH Produced to date: 5880     Where I am, that's over $1400 worth of power.  In some places here, it's double that.

Fuel Used: WMO / Contaminated and recycled Diesel, Thinners, Petrol, ATF, Transformer Oil, Paraffin, Various other grades of mineral oil, WVO... if its liquid, oil based and burns, it gets used. (Sometimes, if it just burns its good enough!!)        Yep, a man after my own heart.

When I first got into Veg oil, the first car I bought was an old merc.  W123.  I drove it too the end of the street turned around and went back and thanked the owner for his time and left. The mrs was upset I didn't like the thing. She did.  It needed SOOOO much work but the price was right and they were hard to come by.  I literally got nagged into going back and buying the thing.  After I handed over the cash I made it not quite 10 KM before it broke down.  Then the car we were in broke down as well about 100 KM from home.  Yeah.
Fortunately I made it to a parts shop by the skin of my teeth and they parts I needed and I was able to catch a bus back to the car we came in, repair it and  Come home.
The new acquisition stayed there. Made a return trip, got it going and the thing died again.  Got it home on the back of a car trailer.

Turned out to be the fuel system, The entire fuel system, which was clogged with Crap.  Hadn't had a drop of Veg near the thing yet so that wasn't the reason!
Cleaned it out, got it going with a drum of veg on the passengers floor and in fairness, never had a problem with the thing again.

It was rough as guts although still comfortable to drive.  The brakes were iffy so I did those, the steering was less accurate than that of a Billycart with rope steering, the suspension was there in residence if not practice and it had 4 months Rego which I was certain it would not make it to.

The thing with most people in the veg work is a neurotic fear of killing their engine. I had no such fear, I always planned my routes around the local area which was as far as I was game to drive the thing along bus and rail routes to make getting home when it stopped easier. I read things on forums and I tried them. Petrol blends was one when everyone was talking all sorts of gloom and doom about that. I found it worked, how it worked best and the problems.  Then I went onto other things.  Using melted lard blended with Diesel and Petrol, tranny fluid, I got a couple of hundred litres of Turps and ran that through, WMO and so it went.

I wasn't trying to stop the thing from dying, my mindset was to find out what WOULD kill it.  Nothing did.  That thing ran like a watch.  Well it lumbered along wandering all over the road burning all manner of filth and Yeech but it NEVER stopped. Well only when the fuel filters blocked and by that time my 12 YO son would Jump  out, change the thing over and have us time him how long it took him to do it. It was always under a Minute and we were off again.  I remember once it stalled at a red light and I got out, changed the filter and was waiting to go while the light was still red.

The thing was, I learned more about veg oil ( and everything else) very quickly and really did become an overnight expert. While other people were too scared to try things in case they broke their car and only followed the parroted veg oil mantra doing what others did blindly with no idea why they were doing it that way or what the effects were or really what they needed to do in their local conditions, I'd tried it all hands on.
I ran with heating the oil, I tried exhaust heat, I ran with no heat, blending, 2 tanking Water injection, meth injection Petrol Injection....... You name it DID it. Not just read about or hypothesised, DID it.
And I ran that little car for 3.5 years without a problem.

It's end came when I decided to give it a much needed resto. I was going to take it off the road for a month or so and work on it as much as I could every day and get the thing ship shape.  Parts weren't expensive, nearly everything was the same price as my localy built common as dirt car but there was  a lot of things that were cheaper too.
Unfortunately, my resto didn't get far, not far at all.  About an hour into it.
I found rust. MAJOR structural rust I had no idea was there.
I called in a mate who was a panel beater and had restored 3 Vintage cars of his own.  He looked for about 5 Min and said forget it. The thing would have to go back to the shell and have work done on it far beyond my capabilities and pushing his and it just wasn't worth it.  My poor old Helga was put to rest. I took out her heart and a few other bits and pieces and sold her off for parts to some arab blokes who were going to ship her back to the middle east as a Taxi despite me pointing out her problems. They were certain they could fix her.  I had the idea that may have been done with timber and rope rather than steel and welding but anyway.

I still have the engine and will one day make a decent generator with it or put it in a boat which is my preference.  Probably put a fleabay turbo on it as well.

I learnt so much from that old thing and in hindsight, it was the best first veg car I could have had.  I was/ am considered a veg oil guru on a lot of related forums and the basis of my knowledge was doing what so many hadn't, getting my hands dirty and trying things. Many people in the veg oil game were driving 20 YO shitboxes a bit better than mine but went on like they were in new Rolls Royces. They wanted to save the planet but also wanted guarantees that their cars would last forever.

The closer mine got to rego expiry the less I cared and the more adventurous I got and the more I learned. Of course when it was still going very strong when the rego renewal came up, I had to actually make the thing road worthy.  :0) It was worth it.  I learned heaps and like you, had a LOT of fun.  I used to help take my kids to sporting events they were doing with their school.  If there was a team that had to go somewhere, they would ask for parents to car pool and take some kids save the cost of a bus.  I ALWAYS had about 9 kids all wanting to come with me in Helga which really pissed off more than one stuck up parent in their new 60K  SUV that the kids were clamouring to go in my old thing but not the slightest bit interested in their luxury lounge room on wheels.

What I learned with that old thing was 80% of veg oil folklore is pure and utter crap repeated by ignorant dilettantes that have never got their hands dirty or even stopped to think the logic of what they will argue through in a logical sense.
You CAN run a mechanical diesel as you say, on just about any liquid that burns. You have to be aware of the processes and what is going on but you can work around most detriments quite easily. Our favourite, WI, fixes most crap fuel I'll s in the engine and keeps them alive very nicely. 

Running engines on whatever burns is not for everyone and certainly not those that want a guarantee something will last for ever. For guys like you and I that are more interested rather than upset when something stops because we see the opportunity to play and and learn, it's a great adventure with huge bonuses along the way.

You have done great with this Ed, both in keeping the thing going, making power and hot water with it and relating you awesome stories and experiences here for the sake of others learning and great entertainment.

Thanks for the update and info. Really something to ponder there. 
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 22, 2016, 03:39:46 PM
Hey Glort!

Thanks for the compliments!!

As pretty much always, agreed on what you say about the parroted mantras!!

One thing that I guestimated in the numbers was the LPG that we would have burnt through during this time period - around 21 Bottles... That equates to a significant cost saving on its own.. Around ZAR5500 at today's prices... I remember a couple of weeks ago, chatting to my housemate, basically on the cost vs saving of running TM... It went loosely around the basic facts that as a pure electrical generator, it was pretty much break-even with a little bit of saving, the savings basically covering the spares and mods on a daily basis (as well as fuel, being that the going rate for WMO is around one ZAR if I cant find someone who wants to dump it.) The hot water/gas saving is the cream on top!!

But, as always, its generally the fun side of things that keep them going!! (I must admit though, sometimes the fun of lifting 500kg of motor is not so much fun!!)

And, above all, the camaraderie of a bunch of other twats like me around the world involved in similar shenanigans!!

Keep it spinning!!

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: Tom on September 22, 2016, 05:51:41 PM
EdDee, how's the bore looking in that engine? Still running the piston with 2 top rings?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselspanner on September 22, 2016, 08:37:27 PM
Well I'm more than happy to be one of the twats!!

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 23, 2016, 09:13:50 AM
Hey Tom/Stef,

Bore seems fine still. A slight ridge, but nothing to write home about... Nothing compared to previous stripdown, where there was a substantial ridge that I had to carve down, but then again, there are still another 500 or so hours to go before it hits the same time frame as previous.

I didnt clean the bore, not even wipe it in fact, when I put the "new" head on. Just worked very, very carefully and made ultra sure as little as possible was disturbed. In hindsight, I should probs have taken a few pics for record purposes, but with my ass hanging out of the gen shed and a storm approaching (which never materialized anyway), I kinda did what was required and not much more...

I did notice, from the short run when it was detonating, that there was a fair amount of soot sticking to the bore itself... No matter, a few secs of run time scraped it off after and all was well(I presume, as there is little blow-by and venting from the cc breather)...

On the note of the CC breather - I have eventually routed it to the intake manifold... I got tired of the oily film that gets deposited and picks up dust... There is not much breather activity on this beast - surprising actually..... To keep things to "scale", I made the breather out of 40mm Galve pipe and some bends from a radiator hose.... It crosses from the CC vent extension around the front of the engine, at about the height of the cylinder head and lower than the rocker cover... Looks quite neat(for a change).... I abandoned the venting into the rocker cover, while it works, its a bit messy from a dust turning into grinding paste point of view...

I normally run with fairly loose valve clearances to allow for a bit of carbon deposit on the seats, but yesterday I went back to finer gaps and was quite surprised at the change in sound of the engine when the gaps were closed up - much, much less mechanical noise.... Particularly from the cam gear backlash(this beast hasn't had any tuning in this department yet....) As to whether performance is affected, not much, if at all.

I did see, on checking over before running yesterday, that he had used a bit of oil, about the same as previously, before the head was changed. Possibly I have a stuck oil wiper ring, which became "unstuck" with a good rattling from the back pressure induced detonating... Who knows? I will keep an eye on it and also change the fuel viscosity slightly - I am currently running between 40 and 50w fuel oil - the diesel knock is very slight - as I decrease the visco, the knock becomes more pronounced, and sooting becomes a little less... That might just "unstick" things.... Worth a try I suppose... WI helps an enormous amount, but it cannot cure everything...

Enough rambling from the old twat this side... Time to go play!!

Keep it spinning!!

Cheers
Ed

OMG... I just realized something... Now I understand why Trans World Airlines never offered Tea on their flights....Could you imagine the hostess pulling up with a trolley to your seat and saying: "Good day Sir...Can I offer you some T.W.A. Tea?"
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 23, 2016, 12:26:27 PM
Hey all ye "Learned Fellows" out there....

Here's an interesting one.....

If you look at the previous post, a small mystery to me....

I tightened up the valve clearances for a trial yesterday, and lo and behold.... After the run and before today's run, with the smaller clearances, a LOT less sump oil was used....Coincidence? I don't know....? Has anybody had similar?

Too early for me to tell as yet, need to run a few days with loose/tight settings to see if its a ripple in the matrix, or if it forms a trend.... But.... I would appreciate a comment or two from you gents out there.... Maybe I am missing something....

Keep it oiling...

Regds
Ed

PS - Just for sh!ts and giggles, to settle a heated discussion on the combustibility of WVO, I pushed about 1/2L or so through the engine while the "non-believer" was present and standing with saucer-sized eyes.... What I was reminded of while doing it, is that WVO is way more suited from a combustion/cleanliness/smell point of view to WMO.... Just wish I could get lots of it!! (The ladies tend to get a bit edgy when the the chip fryer suddenly empties itself..... I blame evaporation of course..... But I think they might be onto me now....)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselgman on September 23, 2016, 03:35:21 PM
I would tend to want a reading on crankcase vacuum under both valve adjustment conditions to diagnose the oil consumption question with any degree of "scientific" method.

dieselgman
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on September 23, 2016, 05:29:58 PM

Got to say, Never been a fan of Venting into the intake.
On of the first things I do to any new car is remove that.  It always makes the inlet tract full of crap and rubbish.  Yeah, WI cleans it up but its just pushing through the rubbish in the end. Then again, if that's what you are using as fuel...... perhaps it's hypocritical to worry.  :0)

 
Quote
What I was reminded of while doing it, is that WVO is way more suited from a combustion/cleanliness/smell point of view to WMO....

Hmm, I reminded myself of that last week too.  I was given a heap of oil from the brother in laws battle ship. I was going to use it in my burners but thinking of you Ed, I thought I'd have another play with it.
Ya! Put it in the 12 HP Ruggerini driving the Induction motor.  I was still mucking round with a few things so I let it run to settle in the mountings and belts while I wired up the caps etc.  Time I took notice of it again, Everything for 6 Ft on the exhaust side was strayed with half burnt oil.  What a effing mess that was. Tools and parts coated with this rotten black stuff.

It sure didn't like it running unloaded!
I wondered about the oil level in the engine if it was going past the rings and filling the sump. To my absolute amazement, the engine oil after about 6 hours running was still perfectly clean. At first I thought the thing was empty, I couldn't see it at all. After getting over that fright I realised it was full, just clean as it came out the bottle.
Guess I did OK on this engine for $130!!

I threw an equal amount of diesel in the tank and about 10% ULP and gave the thing another run ( with a directed bit of pipe on the exhaust this time) and on that combo, the exhaust dried up and it ran clean.
With a load on, I do see a bit of a haze out the pipe and it's not from overloading that's for sure.  This thing has some grunt!
Of course in all this there were the inevitable dribbles and spills from pulling the pipes out of the drum etc and they stain and stink in a way veg doesn't. So much harder to clean up as well.

Guess I'm spoiled with Veg. Infinitely better stuff to deal with.
I did run the thing  a while generating some power and then filled it again a few days later with straight veg.  It ran inadvertently a couple of hours with no load and on veg there was no dribbling or spraying. The pipe was moist for sure but not spraying like the WMO did.  Dropped the load on and after a while the pipe dried right up again.

I can get you some Veg if You want to come pick it up Ed. Put you up for a night or 10 while you were here as well.  Would 1000L Be OK?  I can get you 2 or 3 IBC's but that will probably take me 6-8 weeks so I'll need a bit of notice.

I'm a bit mystified as to what effect the valve clearances have on oil consumption or how they are affecting crankcase pressure.  I don't see the connection.
Increased Blowby?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 24, 2016, 09:48:08 AM
Hey Glort,

Just had a client arrive with a 308 that needs some attention... so much for my lazy start to the day.... but that's another story....

What did transpire is that he mentioned to me that he has a few ibc"s worth of lard, the commercial grade stuff, that he has to dispose of... this could be quite interesting indeed... comes from some local emporiums in the fast food line, ex chip fryers.... I have asked him for a sample, which he says he will hack out and get to me next week.... I see another heat exchanger in my immediate future for getting this stuff into a liquid to stuff down the ip to make more fun.... Have you had any experience with this stuff yet?

A LONG time ago, many years, I processed similar stuff with heating and drying, and stuck it through an engine... If I remember correctly, it worked fine, but was a PITA to do on a micro/small scale... to do occasional runs on it, of small qtys less than 20L at a time, the time overheads and additional heating requirements made it a non-worthwhile endeavour....but.... with around 5000 L of the stuff looking for a home, this might just be worthwhile.... Your thoughts?

In fact, I can already see a bit of exhaust plumbing heading to a heating tank.... I must be insane... its not like I actually enjoy making work for myself, is it?

I checked the oil level of TM, it was a little down, but not majorly... I did fill it to the max mark, which is slightly over full, so let's see how it pans out.... At least the beast runs mechanically quieter with tighter tappets... one bonus...

As I sit here typing, TM is thumping away in the background, hauling around 3.5kw electrical, pumping out around 5kw heat and, above all, stopping about 30L of sludge from being released into the environment in a less "friendly" way..... damn Glort, you better watch out, looks like I am becoming a greenie.....

The venting to the inlet for me is a much easier(read that as lazy) way of keeping things in the gen shed cleaner... the shed is well ventilated, to put it mildly, with about a 300mm gap from ground level to the bottom of the sides all the way round, with the exception of the back wall, which is part of the house... While that makes for a nice airy and drafty enclosure, it also makes for a lot of dust, which adheres to any mildly oily or damp surface, and is an absolute pain to keep clean... particularly as anyone arriving onto the premises, parks literally within spitting distance of the beast.... Given that the doors are 2x1m glass, everything is pretty exposed, so the "showcase" has to be kept presentable... Way easier to clean a bit of pipe on the inside, than wipe down an entire genset every couple of days... and... NO.... I don't spend the weekend with a tiny paintbrush painting the names on the tyres either!!

I might still take you up on the veg oil... do you think they will allow a few ibc as hand luggage?

I have adjusted the visco a bit on this batch of gunk, I am now running on a 25% parrafin to 75% of 50W or so gunk, seems quite a bit better at starting and running so far. So far, the combustability seems more dependant on viscosity than content, if that makes any sense, on a daily basis. I have found that on a very hot day, thick fuel works just as well, if not better than dino, but as air temperatures drop, so does the heat content of the compression stroke, so the heavier oils tend to soot up a bit more... thin them out, allowing them to atomise a bit better, and away you go...

I have put a wee bit more thought into the semi automated WI heavy dose cycling and don't think it will be worthwhile in the long run, not with the varying types of gunk I feed the beast.... If I had a large batch of gunk, of uniform nature, automation becomes more viable... Yes, I can install a variable dose pump with pinpoint egt and knock monitoring, but that will be just a few more things to go wrong in the long run... I gonna keep it simple... want water, open tap... want power, start gen.... have smoke, mix fuel thinner... not quite idiot proof, but certainly more "visual" and simple for a fool like me to understand....

My thinking and dumb way of explaining the oil consumption/cc breathing in relation to valve clearances is probably way off track, but here it goes anyway... Less clearance means the valves open and close slightly before and slightly after they would with larger clearances. The exhaust starts venting a little earlier, the inlet valve overlap is a little longer, there might be less "vacuum" in the cylinder due to this (the exhaust gas has a fair momentum in a long exhaust run)  ... this might just cause a little less oil to be drawn past the piston on each stroke... Who knows? Probably all BS anyway and it is all due to crappy worn bore, shitty and stuck oil control rings, and, above all, due to the fact I tripped over a black cat while walking under a ladder...

Again I ramble...

Keep it chugging...
Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 27, 2016, 03:50:38 PM
Keep it spinning old boy!!

Been on Listeroid power+WMO since around midday today... It's already almost 17h00... Looks like some miscreants have probably thrown a chain over the 22Kv line feeding the premises and have shorted out the local area... Saw the supply boys a few hours ago, but nothing has come down the wires since, with the exception of a brief 2 minute or so burst of electrons.... just enough time to shut down TM, walk back to my office, and then return to TM to get him started again...

Well, if nothing else, he is gonna get a good run because he was due to do the evening shift anyway.... Lets see what transpires....

I am currently trying out a bit of 10% thinning on the 50W gunk.... He is a bit smokey on it.... Tomorrow I will go back to the 20% thinning and see if there's any improvement... But then again... This is another drum of gunk, so the rules might will have changed anyway!!

Keep it spinning!!

Cheers
Ed

PS and BTW.... The jury is still out about oil consumption vs valve clearances.... But I am gonna add another variable to the mix... How about fuel combustibility influencing it too?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on September 28, 2016, 04:22:51 AM
Hi Ed,

I did respond to your post a couple of days ago but just saw it didn’t go through on the 3rd world level premium service I pay for in our premier city of the country.  Bloody joke and they are going to be getting a call to their customer service centre manned by half English speaking trained parrots reciting their robotic like phrases whom really haven’t got a damn clue what is going on.
Like all big companies, they do this because they care about their customers. Like I care about stepping on Bugs.

I have used lard, probably a dozen or more times and I found it to actually be good fuel. It seems to have a slightly higher energy content than oil and the aroma of it burning alone would make it worthwhile replacing your sump gunk.  Myself, given the Qty you can get, I’d be setting up to convert to it and would suggest it may be worth your while as well.

I am ignorant to the conditions where you are but I get the feeling snow is not something you worry about there too much. The fat I used went from solid to Liquid at about 30oC and was fully liquid by 40.
I would heat up a 25L drum of the stuff, put it in the back of the merc ( I used 25L drums as the fuel tanks. ) and could drive till it was all gone with it staying liquid. The return fuel was sufficiently hot to keep it that way and I hedged my bets by using it in summer which I think you have all year round in my version.

You’d have to run a 2 tank system on this, Shutdown on liquid to keep the entire fuel system from plugging, maybe, ( your gen shed may sit at 35 all the time for all I know and be fine) and yes, have a HE most likely.  You may be able to get away with having a Drum sitting outside painted black to keep your fat liquid depending on when you like to run it.

I did process a LOT of the stuff with a mate who made Biodiesel. Like 15K L + of the stuff.  It was doing the fat that got me onto making the waste oil burners because heating 200L drums over a wood  fire to dry the fat ( yes, it will hold water) was a real pain in the arse. With an oil burner ( even the little ones I was making then) We could boil a 200l Drum of fat in 17 Min.  We stacked them in a triangle shape pretty close together so as the heat bounced off the first one, it was channelled around it and onto the others, up to 5 at a time.
We had a big sheet of tin on the top to contain the heat from just going up, and for what it was, the heating was MUCH more efficient than sitting on a grate over a wood fire. We could Boil 1000L of this stuff in about 90 min with a bit of application and there was more effort in pumping it into the processor than heating and drying it.

As the Fat could be 200oC when dry,  we’d then put a fan blowing on it, go in and have some lunch ( or sit on our butts) while it cooled to 70-80. We’d then pump it into the processor and circulate it till it fell to 50 at which time we added the Methoxide and made the bio.
The bio did have a high gel point ( about 10oC) so it was fine for about 9 months of the year here and was a great supplement to getting the veg oil which everyone was after then and could be a little hard to get in the qty we wanted.  Fat was easy to get and blended fine with what oil we had as well.
My mate once got this really yecch batch of fat vomit kindly dropped off to him by an unknown donor. He was going to chuck it but I remembered as a kid my grandfather would get a big pot, half fill it with water, add the lard and give it a boil to clean it.
I did this and by the end of the day, there was this lovely light yellow fat sitting on top of this stinking water in the drum. All we did was scrape the bits off the bottom of the fat cake where it was floating on  the water was and the rest was very clean bar some crumbs dispersed throughout which were no problem in the bio process as they all came out in the Glyc anyway.  For you it would be a matter of reheating and filtering through a cloth and then your final filter and that’s it. You wouldn’t do this if the fat was reasonable to start with. Just filter and you are fine.

If you set up for the fat, you shouldn’t have much problem processing it.  The key is heat and once you have it warm it’s like processing veg oil. You only need it to melt point and I found I had no problem keeping it as liquid if processed on a good hot day.

Like I said, for the qty you can get and the ongoing supply, I’d be going that way for sure.
You could probably get enough heat to melt a 25L drum of the stuff just by having the exhaust blow onto the drum for a while. It doesn’t take a lot.  If you tend to run TM at the end of the day, You’d have no problem with a liquid supply just from a black painted drum out in the sun all day. Go real hi tech and put a reflector of some sort behind it and it would probably be too hot to touch.

You mention Combustibility…. That was something else I found with my fatty farting around, it burnt REALLY clean!  I think on that front you’d love it over sump gunk. With the WI you’d probably be able to comb your hair in the shine in the exhaust port.  I was expecting, for some reason, the stuff to positively leave a crust behind but it was the total opposite.  Burned beautifully and the vehicle had noticeably more power and I’m not one that imagination has much effect on. 

Not sure what you do with your sump gunk now but there is every chance doing fat may be a bit more effort. IMHO, worth every bit and a lot more. No black shit staining everything it touches with a smell you can’t get out of you or your clothes, no smell of failing engine burning it’s oil, easy cleanup with a bit of KOH  or NAOH….. just much more pleasant stuff to handle and the relative perfume when it does burn would be worth it for me.  Especially as you are not in the climate of a lot of our US friends that live in freezing snow drifts half the year… Fk that!  It’s a great fuel for a warm climate that’s for sure.
It will take a bit of setup and thought but I’ve yet to come across someone that would be more up their alley and better able to come up with something brilliant to overcome the inherent characteristics of the stuff.  Processing is nothing, running I’d think would probably be something like 2 tank for shutdown ( you can get cheap timers from flea bay that would change solenoid valves if you didn’t want to wait for the purge)  a heated day tank for fast change over on start up and maybe a bulk tank heated from the engine or sitting in the sun for longer runs and to go into the day tank.

If you did 2 tank, then you could make life real easy for yourself with a “ Hot” mix of 50% sump gunk, 40% diesel or kero and 10% petrol. The thing would start just by mental telepathy and you’d probably use less than half a litre to get the fat flowing and be on your way.

Don’t talk about green, the enviro Nazis always have a perfect if Impractical solution to every  thing.
I get shit put on me at least 3 times a day every single day because I have a vid of a burner running on engine oil that puts out a bit of smoke. More like a haze if you ask me, it’s not billowing like burning tyres but the whingers still get in their high horse and complain about me killing the world and I should be recycling this stuff.
Yeah, never effing happy these clowns.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 28, 2016, 09:10:56 AM
Hey Glort,

Sounds like the fattystuff is indeed a plan worth pursuing! I will indeed!!

From what I remember, it was quite easy to dry and filter as well, nothing overly difficult at all. You have confirmed this... Filtering, if I remembrer, was more a case of removing "crispy bits" than super micro-fine stuff like you get in WMO. The WMO is a bastard to filter - one batch will filter beautifully, the next (from the same drum at a slightly different level) will clog 2 or 3 socks in a row.... Get past it, and it filters fine after that again... Very disconcerting!! (Yep, I know, I am not letting my gunk settle for long enough before filtering, but thats another saga all on its own..)

What I have found very worthwhile, is to let the "storage drums" for the gunk settle for at least 2-3 days before tapping off the usable stuff... I pull from around 4" above bottom and then drain the dregs for later processing when empty.

With the addition of the fat burning system, the fuel supply is going to become interesting. I am going to try and keep the existing dual fuel setup and add the additional system to it... Looks like its gonna get a tad crowded to say the least... I am in two minds as to whether I use a heatex from the coolant, the exhaust, or...no make that three minds... just heat it electrically ex the genhead.... Probably electrical would be the easiest, certainly in the beginning, that would allow me to even preheat it using utility power before a run... (Starting to ramble again....)

Right, let me give the lads a shout and see if they've got the IBC's of waste into an accessible area...

Keep it cooking...

Cheers
Ed

Edit: A little bit of feedback - 21hrs Run on WMO, Sump oil Consumption around the 4 to 500ml mark or so... A bit heavy, but liveable at the mo... Oil consumption seems erratic, it appears as if the oil control rings are a little gunked up....
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on September 28, 2016, 05:30:26 PM

Ed you always amuse me.
It's like you chastise yourself for " rambling" but it's always interesting to hear your wider thoughts and more than not, educational too.  Look at this whole thread. I think one of the longest and well frequnted here and it's gone all over the place.... which is what makes it such a good read every time you post.

I was thinking of you this afternoon mate.....

I'm trying to sell here and when the water heater blew up ( fairly literally ) a while back, I grabbed a cheapie off fleabay and threw it in. It's a good heater and not very old BUT.... it's only 50L and we are lucky to get a 10 min shower out of it.  My daughter is feeling it a bit as it dosent' really give her enough time to wash her hair properly now she has grown it long so she begged me to set up the veg fired heater we used when the old one went out and before I put the new one in. This is just an old gas heater I took the burner out of and have replaed with an oil burner.  It was 6KW rated originaly and 125L but with blowing 20-30 KW though the thing with the veg heater it will keep up with demand of a running shower.  Just have to be careful on the  " change  over"  between showerees that you don't boil he thing and trip the saftey valve which blows hot water everywhere. I have got smart and poked the sensor of a thermometer in between the tank and the insulation so I can stop it going above 80 which is near the tripping point of the valve. 

I got some fittings so I can feed from either the little electric or the oil fired heater outside at the turn of a couple of valves.  I set the oil fired heater up on the back patio ( with the chief cook and bottle washers blessing who is also having to cut her showers short)  and grabbed the burner I built for the job. It's just a gas bottle I tried a square inlet on with a fairly small exit hole.  I angled the end of the inlet and reversed it to exit along the side of the bottle and it puts a load of spin on the flame and makes it burn real nice with a very tight flame.  Perfect for the job!
I was going to fire this the other week but didn't get around to it and it had since been rained on and in.  I thought I'll fire the thing up just to dry it out and check the water heater tank is still ok.

Well it fired up real good on the oil soaked rags still inside and had minimal water. It was going well so I thought I'll heat the tank up.  Went and got the drum I use to feed the burner which I had put a lot of engine oil in I have been getting of late.  To me that's burner not engine fuel but you know, I'm a bit stuck up and spoiled like that !  :0)

Ugggh!
The end of the pipe fell out from where I store it above the tank and it dribbled in an amazingly wide area of the patio in a second.  Major tick off there. Not to worry, I'll get some fuel in the burner before the rag burns out and then come back to cleaning that up.  Turn on the oil and waiting for it to come down the pipe. and waiting and wai... Fk!! there is a pool of oil on the patio now! Bloody hose has got a hole in it!
Stuff the burner, have to clean this up. So I get some newspaper and rags and the stuff cleans up and smudges around and it's an effing right mess with about 50Ml of WMO in total spilled. So little yecch for so much mess!  It's staining my hands, these Jeans just went from going out to backyard only, the oil soaked newspaper has blown onto her plant and made that all black and wont come off and ...... Stuff me Ed, how do you put up with this Shit??

I'd give you credit for not being as clumsy and stupid as me but I know this game too well and that Murphy's powers are greater than yours or anyone elses and you too have spills and mess with this stuff.
I thought going to lard for no other reason than mess and stink reduction is worth twice the prep for that reason alone. I have spills with veg but it is so much easier to clean up and makes so much less mess. i'm the filthiest, most untidy creature I know but this stuff is just foul, disgusting muck! And this oil is good, thin, gunk free WVO from a diesel that has regular changes, the brother in laws battle ship.
I'll get the KOH onto it tomorrow but I know it stained the minute it hit and it will take a lot of sun and rain to really make it all disappear.


As far as your settling, 2-3 DAYS?
I think I'm cutting corners with 2-3 MONTHS settling my veg!  I consider 6 the minimum to produce something with decent cleanliness.  When I have to use it straight away, I use some felt I bought a couple of big rolls of cheap as a pre filter which does as good a job as 6 months settling.  I can generally get a couple of thousand litres through one bit stretched over a 200L drum and sagged in the middle to the edges.  I get more than that through the 10" 5UM household water filters I use on the processor.

You will get some fines in the fat but not like I think the silt you are talking about that seems to settle out of all WMO. I noticed that in teh drum I had today and wondered where it came from. I know this oil comes from a good engine with a couple of filters on the thing about a foot long each and was pumped straight from a warm engine into the drums then sealed. I know the drums were clean to start because I provided them. Still, I saw the thick silt on the bottom. They have been here about 3 months now so some reasonable settling time. Another 3 months and I'll get another 50L of the stuff.  Oh joy!

I think what you really need for your sump gunk is an open bowl type centrifuge.  That would spin out everything bar the black and don't have any jets to clog up and they hold a lot of rubbish. It's more work for sure BUT, it would give you an infinitely better and more consistent product to work with. I have seen what those things can do. They are impressive.

Use utility power for heating?  ED!!!
Have you not seen my burners on YT??  THAT's what you heat with!!   ;D
Yeah, have to see what works best with the setup you have.  I remember last year in desperation hanging an old stove element with bare connections into the middle of a drum of oil I wanted to heat quick and couldn't be bothered firing a burner for the bit of oil I had to heat. Not that it was risky or anything.... Much. Still, did the job and I'm here to tell about it so all good. Thought about it since and have passed. I see there are some cheap immersion heaters going on fleabay now, even a 12V one. Think that was rated at 120W so useful if not the most powerful.  Could be great for what you need. Run it off a battery then charge it up again once you are Running.


What are your summer / winter temps there anyway?  I get the feeling that you may not have to do much heating.  I have seen those evacuated Tubes on YT to water heating. Looks like you can stick them into anything and they work even on cloudy days. If you have them available at reasonable cost, might do the trick for you.  Don't need much heat to melt that fat.

I think what you should look at ed is a float in TM's sump. That way you could tap the fuel feed to pick up from the sump and have the oil  from the tank feeding into it and maintaing level in the sump before it was burned.
The sump oil level would always be the same and you would never use any oil....... except in the fuel drum.
At half litre a day, you are going to have to add the sump oil in the engine to the total fuel burn!

Try some methanol, ethanol or even methylated spirits in the WI and some Napthata/ shellite in the fuel. Might clean it out some more. The naptha is in nearly all engine and fuel cleaners so putting some in the sump wouldn't hurt either. Probably all evaporate in a day but that will only fuel the beast some more through the intake anyway!  :0)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on September 29, 2016, 11:24:00 AM
Hey Glort....

Welcome to the rag-tag world of WMO handling.... Its vile, disgusting, horrible, toxic, smelly, dirty stuff that is best contained in a totally enclosed metal container....Like a sump! (Or laser toner/inkjet cartridges)

There is a certain knack to handling the stuff - Assume, without a doubt, that there will be spillage whenever you decant, pipe, filter or process it - It ALWAYS happens - What I do is use one of those old "Fire Hose Reel Covers" - a glass fibre clamshell type design, around 3' or so square but separated diagonally from front to back along the sides... They make awesome trays to work or stand your kit in while you are pouring or processing. They have caught many a minor spill and allow for quick cleanup afterwards.

Cleanup once it gets into anything absorbent is easy - use black paint.... You wont notice any stains afterwards.... but seriously though, If you can find something that is cheap and easy to lift this shit out of cement, you will become a millionaire very quickly!!

My thinking on settling - a particle of dirt in diesel takes on average 24hrs to travel 1m under gravity - obviously, metals a little quicker, sand a little slower... the average drum is about 1/2m diameter.... so around 1/2 a day for most of the crap to settle out (assuming around 10 to 15w viscosity)... now, I know, the laws of settling and other black magic type things are not linear, but, at 50w, we can assume around 3 to 4 times longer settling will be required for heavy-ish solids in suspension(the nasty sh!t that chews pumps and rings etc)... so, in heavy fuel oils, around 3 days or a bit longer to settle a meter... The drum is about 1/2 a m so in heavy stuff, I need to settle a minimum of 2 days to be safe.... I try and allow at least double that.

The settling times I am allowing, seem quite successful so far... After two fills on a drum, with their respective settling times and used off over a period of around 20days average each per fill, I eventually, carefully canted the drum forward to allow the sludge to roll forward to cover the exit hole for removal. I left it canted forward for most of the day and started tapping off the shit at the bottom. What I got was in the region of 10L worth of what can best be described as "Effluent" .... Extremely fine, almost muddy, horrible greasy stuff.... Now bear in mind, the oil was filtered down to around 5-7mic on its way into the drum, so there is no obvious sand or rough stuff, just very fine almost carbonaceous type material present... I wasn't going to put it under my microscope, too much cleaning involved!!

I have, for quite a while now, been putting some choice bits aside, to build up a mini centrifuge... Nothing fancy, no automation, just a good old manual thingy to run some oil through... Still need to find a torque converter to fit the pressure cooker that went missing from the kitchen a couple of months ago....... Damn, these women are careless.... how do you lose a pressure cooker.... Strange enough, I have a similar unit that I have in my workshop, been there for years... ... ... ..

Utility power for heating.... I know its blasphemy, but.... So much easier... It will only be for the odd occasion that the thing bungs up and goes solid on me because it wasn't dino/WMO flushed before shutdown.... I am kinda resistant to taking a blowtorch to the piping to get things flowing...

I am staying away from battery power as much as possible, I loathe the things... mainly because in this part of the world, the miscreants will break into vehicles and even gate motor units to steal the batteries... Too much temptation I guess....

Summer temps hit up to about 40C and winter goes down to around 0C on the very, very odd occasion... Normally around 4C in the workshop overnight and up to about 35C average max.... Solidification will be a thing to deal with, but not too bad I reckon....

I will attend to TM's thirstiness for sump oil...eventually... Just need a bit of time to get to it...no rush... I have been tempted to put in a float system, but I am pretty sure that the problem of oil consumption is more due to the dipper being a little too large/long and just oiling things up a wee bit too much... I will make a change there when I get around to it too.... (Also, I tend to keep his oil at weir level which is a bit high anyway....) Bear in mind, he has around 2500 hrs on "not the best of fuels" and the cylinder is a bit worn....

Enough rambling....Yet Again....

Keep it slurping!!
Cheers
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on October 01, 2016, 09:40:20 AM
Hey Girls.....

Eventually got round to getting the compressed air powered pump up and running... here's a little video of it pumping some 45W-ish  oil through a sock filter...

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Dirty Oil Piston Pump 20160930 (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/Dirty Oil Piston Pump 20160930)

Its nothing fancy, just a slow old chugger to get the job done... no chance of fire, no electrics, can set pump pressure easily, no chance of damage if the flow is stalled, to stop it, you can either turn off the air supply or close the output valve....simple and safe...it can be left running unattended without a chance of burning the place down...

I still need to find a single spring large enough to do the return stroke, the gaggle of springs to pull the ram back and draw in the oil are a temp measure until I can get off my butt and measure the actual tension required.... all in all around 200kg I reckon....

Right, time to put some tools away and tidy up the workshop a bit... once that's done, some legs to put on the filter unit and a batch of gunk to filter... isn't this so much fun!

Keep it pumping...
Cheers
Ed

Edit: A few hours later.... Tools still not put away....

Right, Picture the scene.... A minor snafu in the gunky non-return valve department, on the inlet side of the pump, handling the incoming side of the dirty oil..... A small piece of plastic, a' la the type used in the lids of the disposable 500ml plastic containers of oil got sucked into the non-return valve (The pickup strainer is still not installed yet..) and caused a bit of non-pumping to occur... (This happened last thing last night when I left it running on residual air from the compressor...) No Problem, whip the top off the little valve, remove said gunk and screw the top on again... quick and easy, that's why I am using this style valve...

All going according to plan, even lifted the pump up and put it on an empty 200L drum so I don't even have to disconnect the oil feeds, the system will drain back to the tank as soon as I open the valve.... Wonderful... Works like a charm... There's the gunk, sitting under the valve flap... where's the leatherman? .... got it...nope....got it....slipped again....got it....Tug/Pull/Wiggle.... problem solved!!

When....

All of a sudden...

Whoooooosh!!

1.5L of airborne sump Shite!!

Duhh.....

I turned on the compressor on the way into the workshop.... It took a couple of minutes to get to the 30PSI pressure to trip the control valve and cycle the cylinder.... Whereupon, you guessed it.... One face full/ceiling full/workshop full of not so finely atomized sump crap decided to leave the pump at a rather large dose of speed as there was literally nothing holding it back except a rather large 20mm cover hole....

What an asshole!! I now have a yellow bulldozer with black spots, a floor with a not-so-even coating of oil, in fact, pretty much everything in a 3m radius needs a liberal wiping down... even the ceiling!

I am now going to go and hit the shower, continue cursing my stupidity, kick back in front of the screen and watch Star Trek... The old stuff...

In among the emergency bit of "do I really have to clean this cr@p up" actions, I at least put the pressure regulator on the pump on the cylinder air feed side of things, now the control circuitry can run at high pressure and the pumping pressure can be regulated independently...I suppose, looking on the bright side... Another small step forward....Just a very, very, very messy step at that....(Oh, and BTW Glort, remember me telling you about that drip tray I use.... Well, I lifted the damn pump out of the tray onto the drum to work on it, then carefully slid the tray out of the way so I wouldn't fall over it.... Yep, you guessed it.... most of the oil, on its return journey to ground level landed right where the tray used to be....Fuggit!)

And.... I still haven't put the legs on the oil filter unit so it can recline safely out of the way... Stuffit!! It can hang on the gantry a few days longer while we clean this mess up....
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on October 02, 2016, 01:08:56 AM

Aww Ed, I really do feel for you mate.

WMO to me has a multiplication factor of at least 20. Any amount you spill seems like 20X moe when you have to clean the ship up.  The other day I spilled maybe 50Ml. Seemed like 2L . To spill 1.5L would seem like 50 as it goes exponential the more you spill.
You think you were silly,  I once spilled a Full 200L of Veg oil. I cried. I mean, I was just so dissapointed and overwhelmed by my stupidity, I cried.  I was telling some other  veg oil crazy friends about it some time later when we all rocked up to a friends place on the same Saturday afternoon and they all admitted they had been driven to tears by spills as well.
 Pretty funny when one of the guys was a special rescue fire fighter who's Cahoneys are even bigger than the rest of the highly substantial and embarrassingly fit and strong guy.

Didn't that take some cleanup! When you can suck your spill up with a pump from the concrete and shovel it into containers, you know the spill is a good one.
I basically had to contain it for the afternoon till it fell dark because I was worried about getting into all sorts of ship with the local council whom might call in the EPA. I later found that any spill with Veg 200L or under is non reportable and anything up to 1000L is " notifiable" but they don't take any action or investigate.

Took a fair bit of NAOH to clean that lot up I can tell you.  Someone did notify the council the next day of " White Paint" running down the gutter the night before which was of course the NAOH and the oil mixing which goes a creamy white colour.  Luckily my wife is the section manager of the Customer service branch of council and told hbe good as new... or old, whatever it was when you built it.er friend the inspector that I spilled some oil and how I cleaned it and all was fine. Not sure she told him how much I spilled but turned out wouldn't have mattered anyway.  He was cool. Once got called out here when another pesky neighbour reported I had 200 big drums of Toxic waste in my driveway. Arrived to find me squashing down 20L empty oil tins to take to the Recyclers. No problem at all but was fascinated by what I used the oil for as he had heard of it but never seen it done before and got the full demo of how the car did actually run on the stuff.

My 200L spill was probably less difficult to clean up than your 1.5L will be.
Your pump is like nothing else I have seen before.  Amazingly slow action! That thing will wear out 5 compressors and still be good as new.... or old.... whatever it was when you built it.

People get into the veg game and see other peoples sticky, polymerised coated equipment and say, " I'm not going to let mine get like that! I'm going to keep mine clean" . The old hands all say  " Yeah, that's what we all said to for a bout a month into it before we gave up. "  Funny this stuff.  You spill water you never give it a 2nd thought because it just goes away. Oil doesn't, especially under cover where the sun and rain can't get to it.
No matter how careful you are, no matter how well you think something through, no matter how pedantic you are, there will always be spills.

With my veg processing, I don't even worry now. I tend to do it in batches and I work on the concrete driveway not all that far from the back door.  I found the more pains I went to not spill anything, the more got splattered about.  These days I'll do a 1000L batch and time I'm finished, the concrete will be quite wet with oil.  I'll get out the Naoh, wet the area/ drums/ processor down, sprinkle the Naoh liberally, broom it round a few times and re wet it over about 30 min then hose or pressure wash it off.

The result is a Mrs that is unhappy I didn't do the rest of the 30x4M driveway  because the bit I just did looks like brand new concrete and the unsoiled bit now looks dirty.
She doesn't even say a word now when I'm making a mess processing. She will just ask if it's water or oil on the driveway to avoid walking through it and make me put the garbage she has brought out in the bin. No problem at all..... Other than can you please  do beyond where you spilt oil so the rest of the driveway near the gate looks good too.
It's a good complaint to have from her indoors!

The Naoh is great stuff but not to be underestimated.
My father was buying this commercial cleaner he was using in his workshop for degreasing engines and the floor etc.  I looked at it and found it was Naoh with a salt (!!)  and some pink colouring.  I took him up a few kilos when I next Visited and mixed some up for him. The concentration of the NAOH I thought was a bit light in the commercial stuff so I " fixed" that.
Next thing I know he's a bit excited as he went to clean some  aluminium part and the thing foamed up like no tomorrow and almost dissolved in front of his eyes. He said he'd used the other stuff before and it was fine, WTF did I put in what I'd made up??

Hmm, well I'll put a lot more water in it for you or you can keep that one and I'll make a weaker batch  in another bottle.  Yep, went that way and I straight away saw one bottle marked FLOOR ONLY and the other marked  PARTS. He was happy with how the first mix lifted the grease off the floor but not so wrapped about it near dissolving brackets and manifolds on the engines.
Engine oil and grease is still SO much more difficult to shift than Veg oil though.

AS for your catch tray.... Years ago I decided to install 4 IBC's under a disused pergola that the mrs said why don't you use and just hang some shade cloth in front to hide the tanks and make it look a bit more presentable?  Great. This was not long after the 200L spill where I decided I had to make the system more fool ( me) proof.  Thinking things through, I decided to put a bund or a double layer of builders plastic under everything to stop any spills washing through the yard.  Went to great pains to make up a frame to support the plastic if it was full of oil , made sure I put pallets for the drums to sit on that wouldn't pierce the plastic and set the tanks in there.  I even got so ambitious I Filled the bund with water once the tanks were full and it held for days till I pumped it out. 
Perfect.

Not a month later when filtering, I had a hose blow off a barb and pump about 80L of oil out. Of course the hose flung around and pumped the oil completely clear of the tanks and bund and I discovered it running down the garden path.  That just got hosed away so I didn't take out 1/4 of the back lawn with the KOH. Pressure washed it best I could and with rain and sun and a few months later, path was OK. Amazingly, the grass was fine. Once the oil broke down a bit it seems to be a nutrient because you could see the strip of grass that was greener and thicker than the rest. Thankfully Bund was never needed but when I did move stuff around about 6 Months ago I found the Rats had chewed most of the plastic away anyhow.

 Always been rats here from when I first came due to the next door neighbour mowing his back paddock like yard annually, if that, and them just getting in there.  He and I have tried to clear them out but we have either never got them all or they must come in from neighbouring yards and breed up. They all back together so plenty of room for rats to hide and nest. When I first came here,  I set up a big of food and was shooting them with an air rifle from the back shed. Thought My aim was right off till I worked out I was hitting them, they were just so big they were bouncing off. And big they were! Changed to Sub Sonics out of my.22 and they fell over no problem but the size of the things was unbelievable. They are just average large now and grey not black like those big buggers were.

At different times of the year, one of my cats will bring in a rat about half her size about very 2-3 days. Sometimes every day for a week on a real good run. Shes an excellent rat catcher and loves them. Like really loves them.... all of them except the head , tail and some guts you find in the yard. Not like we don't feed them but she obviously likes her meat fresh over tinned.
Just wish she wouldn't leave the whole ones in the middle of the floor when we get up of a morning or worse still as he has done more than once, hide them under the lounge or in a wardrobe.

We have figured out what that god awful stink is now and where to look for it.   :-\
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on October 04, 2016, 04:35:35 PM
Hey Glort,

We have the odd rat problem over here too... mostly over winter when food becomes a bit scarce... They tend to become(or try to become) house rats... Nothing a 12ga/308/30-06....or .22 doesn't sort out... Plays hell with the paintwork though.....

Oil spills are a bit of a pain, but nothing that can't be "lived with" or catered for on a daily basis... I generally try and process less than 200L at a time for this very reason... But, invariably, the small spills occur during setup or knockdown... Very little gets spilt during the processing itself.

The pump is a slow cycler for sure.... Intended to be so, the net result is very little, if not nothing in the line of emulsification during transfer or filtering... I have got a few, in fact more than a few, other types of pumps to use for transfer and filtering, but tossed out the ideas after thinking what the nett effect would be in the grand scheme of things...

My next target drum of gunk is a 200L batch that has had all the tailings from the last year or so go into it... All of the really bad stuff that was in small quantity and didn't warrant individual attention.... Its gonna be interesting for sure!! (I think I will pump the bottom out of the drum first, that should be mostly water, then the slime and sediment...This will all go towards fire lighting and pole painting... Once I get to the better stuff, I will raise the dip tube a bit and then push it through a filter to see what comes out.....Could be interesting, if nothing else!!)

Caustic soda works a treat on the oil spills... I always have a fair amount on hand - Its part of a recipe I use for gun blueing - and there is always a bit of concentrated and old chem from the blueing tanks to be re-purposed to driveway cleaner... Basically the mix is part Na-OH and KNO3... A bit of a waste of good saltpeter... Always better for the saltpeter to be used to make the "Holy Black Powder" that is getting so hard to get hold of these days if you are into that sort of thing... Interestingly, the old blueing salts, when watered down a bit, make AMAZING fertilizer....

Was promised another 200L of gunk today... Still waiting for word on the IBC's of fat to materialize though, hope that it doesn't fall through....(In the interim I did pick up 210L of mildly contaminated diesel...)

Oh yes... After more than a year of running, I finally managed to put a "Sludge Drain" tap on my day tank... Another "Lazy" addition.... Now I don't have to wash out the tank at service time....or....maybe even....I can just use a little from the tap every so often to top up the oil can I use for the valves and push rods... There's probably way less dirt in solution in the bit of sludge that accumulated in the day tank than gets blown onto the engine proper during a 24hr period, and, ...water....what of it? Nothing that a bit of heat from the cylinder head wouldn't dry out in short order...

Again I ramble....

Keeeeeeeep it spinning!!!

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on October 05, 2016, 04:51:50 AM

Ed, is your WMO supply particularly low quality for some reason or is it from vehicles in normal Service?
It sure sounds to be particularly nasty stuff.
Are you in a remote part of the land where there aren't many suppliers or is it just hard to get people to " Donate" it for other reasons?  Here in the factory/ industrial areas I see it every time I go through. anything from the 5L bottles it comes in to 200L drums and plenty of 25's and 60's in between. You could get a ute full Visiting a couple of industrial areas where I am and even where my father is in the country, you could just go to the unmanned council tip  reclamation area and pick up a ute full on any given weekend.  Veg is even better up there. It's stacked behind every fish and chip shop and takeaway waiting for the monthly or when he gets round to it local collector. 

I get the kind of " Out fall " you speak of with veg as well. Tailings that settle to the bottom of crumbs etc mixed with what it otherwise good oil.  I also tend to put that aside till I have a " critical mass" to work with which mkes it's processing worthwhile.
With veg, a BIG refinement can be done simply with heat.  fat tends to be more prevalent in the presence of water. When you boil this stuff up, as I tend to do rather than air dry it due to the rubbish content, the water is driven off and you have a much different and better substance than what you started with.  When cooled a drum of fat can be 90% or more good, light coloured thin oil and it stays that way.
Couple of days settling, filter it through some fabric and you can have a real good product.

I got suckered into taking an IBC of fat one time by some tool that basicly lied about the stuff and dropped it off in my driveway. It was gunk and I thought I might be pushing to get the stuff to a state I could use it for burner let alone engine fuel. To my great delight the stuff was just very wet and when I dried it out, the batches came up beautiful.  I made a post with pics about how good this stuff came up and how easy it was to process which was really putting salt into the wound of the guy that dumped it on me who was complaining about not being able to find any oil anywhere.

I have found that with the slops as I call it, just straining it through fabric is a good recovery method.  The solids and particles stay in the fabric stretched over a drum and the useable stuff comes out eventually. With veg this can take a week but the more gunk that clogs the fabric, the finer it filters and the cleaner the end result.  I take the material off the drum and sometimes use it a bit at a time for fire starting as it's so good. Other times the lot just goes to fire up the scrapping furnace all at once.

I haven't used Veg for painting posts, termites would probably think it was sauce or a dressing but I have used it for rust prevention. The fact the oil will polymerise into a plastic like material is a great asset in this application.  Goes stick but then pretty dry and won't spread around and stay wet.  I gave a mate of mine a batch one time and he painted his entire box trailer with it. Looked terrible but h said 3 years after I gave it to him the trailer had not rusted one bit more since he put it on despite being in the weather. He used to recoat  the tray pretty often as he was carting a lot of dirt and rubbish which abraded and removed it but the rest was good.   

I'm sure glad and feel appreciative I don't have to do and go through what you do.

Wouldn't it be great if teleportation was available?
 How many IBC's of Veg you need Ed?  I'll send them over now.  Would you like a coupe of million/billion litres of water as well? 
Our driest country on earth has half my state under water ATM. They'd pay you to take it off their hands and dry the place up a bit.
Specially out of their living rooms and shops!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on October 05, 2016, 10:00:53 AM
Hey Glort,

The stuff I play with can be difficult, or easy, to get depending on the quantity in mind... Larger quantities come available, but I don't have the facilities to store and process the big batches - I was offered a 5Kl metal storage tank for free the other day - It is quite a nice unit, uses compressed air to pump the contents out - I think it originates from a motor manufacturer - It was used apparently for bulk storage of ATF for their assembly line... I am still considering it, but am not wild about having an immovable object of that size on my property....

Around this part of the world, there is a drive to keep WMO and the like out of the environment... As to its success, I am not so sure... The net result is that most of the smaller garages and the like are tied up with the WMO disposal lads and smaller qty's are not too easy to get hold of(unless its pretty fetid stuff). The bigger concerns normally do have a bit of excess that they could probably pass my way, but, they are in qty's too big for me to handle and transport. I pretty much just keep a lookout for the 200L and smaller batches and process them as they come along. So far, because TM is not part of the critical day to day running of the place, I run him for longer when fuel is available and less when it becomes scarce... Barring maybe 2 or 3 days over the last few months, he has run a minimum of 3hrs a day and up to 15hrs a day on a few occasions...

As to the quality of the stuff... Its pretty ghastly, in the circles I get the stuff from, it appears that the vehicles are serviced when they don't run anymore... I have, on more than one occasion, found quite a serious amount of bearing material in the oil... not to mention dead geckos and rats too!! (Definitely fossil fuel in the making!!)

I think that I probably could be choosy about the fuel if I really wanted to, but where would be the fun in that? Virtually everybody, everywhere, on every forum or bit of research I have done, has had major problems when running WMO in a diesel system. I will admit, it is a challenging environment, but at this point, for me anyway, it does not appear that the problems are insurmountable. Difficult and tedious to manage, but not impossible. It does cost a bit in the line of "School Fees" to get the system into place, but so far its been quite a bit of fun. (Probably raised a few eyebrows here as well!!) - And definitely is a talking point for the petrol-heads that drop by around here every so often...!

Its actually quite amazing to see how the small, really small time hobbyists in the motor world respond to seeing TM thumping away and disposing of the sludge in a very, very, environmentally friendly way. I am talking about chaps that wouldn't bat an eyelid to leaving a drum of goop on the side of the road (at best) to be mixed up in the weekly rubbish collection. (I think their consciences are probably catching up with them..) We are talking about the gung-ho absolute opposite of bunny-hugger class of person here... Not long after they see what I am doing, and a couple of small drums of goop are dropped off when they are next in the area...(Sometimes even with a bit of a challenge - "I bet you cant use this stuff" - Needless to say, on occasion, when there is a beer or two in the wager, a wee bit gets processed immediately and a small run is done for them...with the wager being settled of course!)

Its all fun, and learning of course!! (and making roundworld a little better off in the process...)

What have I learned overall...I mean really learned in this escapade? Simple - Make sure the insides of the beast are mechanically sound and in spec, feed it anything that burns as long as it doesn't have gravel and chunky bits in it, keep water pouring into the inlet to keep carbon down, keep the ass-end clean as possible so it can breathe out, balance the bastard as well as you can, and, in my case, take as much time as you can with settling the fuel.... That's just about all!! (Oh yes, think lazy!! Don't be ashamed to bolt something on or together to make your life easier... The easier things are to use, the more you will use them!) There are probably a good few other things mentioned along the way, each probably important in its own way, but most of them fall into the "lazy" thinking way of things...

Again, I ramble....

Keep the crankshafts cranking, the tappets tapping and the pistons pis ......working too!!

Cheers
Ed

PS - Hey Glort, how about a micro version of a Star Trek Transporter? "Hey Scotty: beam 10 microns of white metal onto the journal when you get a chance... The warp coil is getting a bit knocky...."
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on October 05, 2016, 03:48:13 PM

That really clarifies a lot Ed and I totally get where you are coming from.

I was given the same size water tank once. I was excited till I figured the thing was just the wrong shape to put anywhere in the place conveniently. I wanted it for oil, the Mrs wanted it for the garden, we both agreed it wasn't practical.  I gave it to my " Conservation minded" Bio diesel making mate.  He was stoked with it.  Did some pre emptive repairs, painted the thing and plumbed it up to the house drain pipe.  Very happy chappy.

I usually collect oil in 200L drums by pumping it out of other 200L drums the restaurants commonly have. I used to pick it up from my brother in Laws waste disposal station in 1000L IBC's in my trailer which was great as was the oil.  90 min round trip and I had a 3 months supply of liquid gold.  Can't say I have been offered any massive qtys. I'd take 5Kl in  heart beat. I had 6 Ibc's here at one stage with another 1500L in 200's and 25's.
seems amazing now but at the time I had 2 Vegmobiles and it didn't take all that long to go through. Only really let my stocks come down as I was planning  to move and didn't want to cart that much with me.  Easier to resupply when I get there.

I so get where you are coming from with the challenge of the oil. When the Bio thing was all the rage about 6 years back, my friend and I were on a few local forums. He was regarded as the bio god and myself the master of SVO.  We had our systems sorted and working without a thought.  The amount of people that argued and lambasted our methods which did not fall within the approved sheeple thinning was significant. We got told every day how what we were doing and had been for longer than they got the brain rush of biofuels to the head wouldn't work, would destroy our engines.... you name it.

Meanwhile, we were kinda bored. It got too easy, there was no mental exercise in it  for us.  My mate was doing stuff even he thought was ridicilous but ALWAYS made it work. It wasn't always practical or worth the time, effort and expense but he made bio so many way it wasn't funny.  Being in a scientific field ( he designs stuff for NASA, Literally) he was meticulous with record keeping and noting procedures etc.
He posted a lot of stuff on the net and 20 Twits would tell him it was impossible with out trying and then one person would see it worked and a couple even came up with modifications to make it better.
He had a lot of fun with that but I have to admit, he got into it so deep with the chemistry side, it left me for dead.

I took the much challenge as it were.  I delightful passtime of get the filthiest, decaying, rodent filled, stinking goat vomit available and turn it into fuel grade oil.
I never failed at that but it was pretty clear you could  clean up anything, only question was would you have 19.5 L fit for the vehicle when you finished or 3?
Obviously there was more muck to be removed in the worst lots and and a great deal of water in some which was what made it go rancid.   Some Oil I would put in the processor with 100 l of water and stir it all up to an emulsion. Let it settle out, drain the water and crap, repeat, Dry, filter and see what remained.
Sometimes not much. :0)

Anyway, we learned a lot and had a lot of highly questionable fun. Whole load other more pleasant things we could have done but that's where we found our questionable but practical enjoyment.
At least it repaid us and we didn't sink a fortune into it to get nothing back. Never visited a fuel station for years and I still haven't other than to buy Drinks or food on a trip.

I wholeheartedly agree with the simple Philosophy as well.
I said real early on in my advegtures, the more stock you can leave the vehicle and the less crap you add in, the less failure points and trouble you'll have.
Others were hell bent on bolting in multiple 30 plate heat exchangers, injection line heaters ( a load of crap if ever there was one!)  heated fuel filters, re plumbing the entire fuel system in 3/4" line ( I kid you not, it wasn't rare!) and just making the whole vehicle a a complication they didn't even understand in the end.

Meanwhile, here's me replacing the OEM fuel Filter with one from another car that was much cheaper and calling it all good.
And it was.

Despite endless calls again of blowing the engine up and killing the vehicle, I NEVER had a problem.  The people criticising my methods sure did and I was asked to come sort out the problems more than one of them had.  I was generally last resort of desperation though.  Hard to ask someone for help whom you have virtually called an idiot.  Of course that's why I went to help! What better revenge and ego trip can you have??
Got everyone of them working INCLUDING one guys personal car that was doing these conversions!
They all pretty much played follow the leader and did things for no reason other than that's the way the guy on the other side of the world did his and said it worked.

Same with processing.
I swear, the American guys seemed to have this idea that you had to spend as much on your setup as you could, it had to be as complicated as possible in order to be able to handle conditions that never existed in the whole history of veg fuel, It had to draw as much energy as possible and have the absoloute maximum number of built in failure points.  After all that, you had to take ridiculous levels of safety precautions for non existent or physically possible risks.  It was mind numbing. Of course many here followed suit.  Again, my settle and do nothing for as long as possible, Bubble dry while you filter and bottle system was ridiculed.
And it was tested, more than once.  People with centrifuges spun the life out of it and admitted the dirt they did get was so little and so fine it would probably pass through the entire fuel system without ever causing a problem. Which it didn't.

One guy tested how dry my oil was in a way I never would have imagined.  He actually ADDED drops of water to a cupful to see how many he could put in before it registered on the agreed universal test.  came up at 3 which was as good as the specially dried ( Boiled to the extreme) test batch he made.
Yeah. Once that got out on the forums then everyone wanted to know how it was done. No problem, see this post I put up a year ago.  :0)

Often simple and easy is great, other times you want the challenge.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on October 11, 2016, 09:54:17 AM
Hey Glort,

Agreed... Simple is very often best... Not for everybody though - There will always be some price to pay for using "sub-standard" fuel, ie a fuel in an engine that it was not designed for... In my case, the crap I am feeding it seems to be giving the IP a few problems - this is probably due to water as all I am currently doing is settling and filtering, no actual thermal de-watering anymore.. I have pushed around 800L of "non-cooked" oil through it so far, it is a little hard to start, due to ip and injector wear, but still runs fine... A bit smokey on occasion, but grab the magic mirror, the black cat and do a solstice dance and things clean up in an hour or two.

I have seen quite a bit of "over-injection" with the gunk I have been getting from one of the lads and I have found a way to minimise the problem, or at least manage it to a large extent.

My roid doesn't have an over-fuel stop on the IP rack. The other day I noticed that under overload conditions, the rack was wide open and TM was belching smoke like a steam train. The overload occurred shortly after startup, before he got to operating temp. When TM is still cold, depending on fuel mix used, he can either easily make electrical target current or easily not make it if the fuel is bad. With a bad batch of fuel, if he doesn't make target current, the electrical safeguards don't get a chance to kick in and he doesn't "unload" under high current...

What I found was that if I manually closed the rack slightly and limited the overfuel condition, he picked up revs and made slightly better power (and way less smoke)... He was so overfueled that he was actually dropping off of his power curve and "flooding" a bit... I tightened up the cable that actuates the shutoff lever to the house and am using that as a rack stop. It does mean that he is a tad harder to start, but with the 220v starter its not a major biggie.

It will be interesting to see what or how it affects fuel consumption (if at all) .... Considering that most of the time we run him in the evenings, he is under full load/near overload condition..... (I did note that sudden loads would allow him to go full-rack on the odd occasion for a couple of secs..)

Enough rambling....

Keep it chugging...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on October 11, 2016, 10:36:01 AM

Sounds Like it's time to add a Turbo Ed!
Maybe something simpler? A shot of nitrous every time it goes into overload and starts rolling coal?

I have found that water in the Fuel really knocks the power around bad. Went on a trip once and put Dirty, wet fuel in instead of the carefully cleaned stuff.  Dirt wasn't so much the problem but the water killed the power. Drove the thing flat out and was still barely making 40 Kmh.  Topped it off with Diesel and it got better but had to really get rid of most of the wet oil before the thing came good.

I saw something Really interesting last night.  It appeared to be a Bosch VE type pump being built for a Toyota D4D engine.
Not ready to change my oily ways yet and the biggest problem with anything new is their flimsy IP's.  -IF- it is possible to get a VE pump to run an electronic engine like a D4D, I'll be a very happy man.
don't care about economy, couldn't give a rats about emissions, I would live happily with a bit of a loss of power, the ability to run veg in a car that wasn't 20 + years old would would be great.

Now, I wonder if I can find any Diesel mechanic with the stones and know how to build me such a pump?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on October 13, 2016, 09:31:53 AM
Hey Glort,

Hmmm.... Turbo.... Nitro.... Roots Blower.... Titanium Conrod.... Aluminum casing.... Whitewall Flywheels.... Common Rail(on a single?)....
.
.
.
Naah....Will save those mods for my hi performance aluminum Aero- Lister, you know, the one I am going to fit into the Sopwith....
.
.
.
Then again.... Maybe a matched pair in a Chinook would save me building a runway....


Lol...

Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on October 13, 2016, 11:49:11 AM

I think you are on the right Track Ed.  For a Chopper all you'd have to do is Dry sump the thing so it can lay on it's side and put a swash plate on the flywheel for the collective and it would be ready to fit right up!
How about a radial Lister? just graft a few more pots on the case and modify the crank. Bingo!

If you need blades, I'll put you onto a very good friend of mine. He designs carbon Fibre blades, wings, winglets and all sorts of other stuff for the aerospace industry ( and more recently Formula 1) and has the facilities to draw them up to your specs and bake them. He decided he wanted a wind turbine a while back and with the design computer busy crunching numbers for something else and a run of parts getting ready to be cooked, he drew the blades up manually and had them made.  After they were finished, he ran his design through the now free computer to see how far off he was and found they were about as close to perfect as they could have been.  He put it down to a fluke, I put it down to being bloody good and highly experienced at his job. He's a DIYer at home and his idea of quick and rough is a piece of engineering I'd be proud to say I built.

One thing I love with my roid is telling people whom are Engine knowledgeable that the thing is a 1.4L . Then when you tell them it does 6 Hp, there is a momentary delay as they process the numbers then come back with  " 6 HP from 1.4L????"  Then they equate that to being the power their lawnmower puts out . Then I tell them yeah but your mower does 3600 rpm. Idle on this is about 300 RPM and flat out is 600 and it's another  WTF???

I had a few mates over one time of various skills and mechanical persuasions and we had a start the engine competition with the Lister and my little china Diesel.
Most laughs we ever had while sober! Everyone thought the Lister would be hard and the little China Horizontal would be easy but turned out to be the other way.
Next time I'll bring out the rope start Lombardini.
Or maybe not.

Get that wrong and you could break fingers or worse.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on October 14, 2016, 09:42:10 AM
Hey Glort,

There is a "knack" to starting an engine.... Particularly with a crank handle!

There have been a few wagers made on the premises here too.... Particularly in the line of "I bet you couldn't start that thing by hand" - Easily won I might add, cheating a bit I suppose... Once TM has been running for a few minutes, he is VERY easy to start! I can even start him without using the de-compressor - beat that!! (There is a trick to it of course: Walk the flywheels back to about 1/4 way into the previous compression stroke, or bounce between compression strokes and really put your back into the full 1 1/2 turns of the crank to get him over the business stroke and away you go!) You have to "commit" to it and not approach it lightly...(Kinda like the the Bacon and Eggs breakfast...The Chicken is involved, but the Pig is committed!)

This was a skill that I had to acquire years back when visiting one old farmer... He removed the de-compressor on a CS to prevent his workers from starting the beast... Another boring story, but that being said, he showed me the way to get it going and it never fails to amaze folks who try to do it themselves!!

Never had a bounce back that I couldn't cope with either.... Except for the one time that some silly bugger had about 1/2 L of petrol poured into the air intake to try and get things going... There were a few cartwheels involved if I remember...but...sometimes its difficult to remember when you get flung across a barn and into the wall....What it does make you remember, is to carefully check for "foreign liquids" before you even think of grabbing the handle....

Keep it cranking...

Cheers
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: mike90045 on October 15, 2016, 07:52:46 AM
I think I'm too old to try the bounce method,  I'll stick to the de-compressor
 Yow !!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: carlb23 on October 15, 2016, 12:33:07 PM
While i have no issues with starting my lister with the de compressor i will not attempt to try to start it without it for fear of breaking my arm or something else.  That being said we only use our lister for backup and i have an air starter on mine and 100 gallons of compressed air on hand at all times.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: BruceM on October 15, 2016, 06:28:22 PM
Amen, Carl.  Gast 4AM with rubber roller has been doing the job for me for the last 10 years of regular use.  Still on the original roller.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: carlb23 on October 16, 2016, 11:40:13 AM
Amen, Carl.  Gast 4AM with rubber roller has been doing the job for me for the last 10 years of regular use.  Still on the original roller.

yup my gast 4am has been doing its job since early 2005 and has never failed to start the engine on the first attempt.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on October 24, 2016, 04:02:10 PM

Tonight I found something that finally justifies Ed's and my love for Water injection.

Looking at one of the car channels, I see the latest super go fast hard core stripped down limited production boy racer BMW M series is equipped with.......

WATER INJECTION!

The M4 GTS has a Whopping 54 HP over the same engine in the standard M4 without the WI.  It's a factory fit, computer controlled system used post turbo and inter cooler and seems to fire straight into the manifold just before the head. Apparently the power falls right off when the WI is empty and there is a big flashing warning that comes up on the cars dash screen. The system is built right into the engine intake system and is an integral part of the whole engine setup rather than and sort of add on. Everything is moulded in and accounted for in the wiring loom and the computer programming. they didn't go into any detail about operating cycles, flow rates or anything else other than to say it allows higher boost from the twin Turbos by controlling the inlet temps and detonation of the fuel no matter what grade is being used.  I got the impression however that the thing does tend to suck the water down when the thing is peddled hard.
Distilled water is specified but obviously that is only to make sure there isn't build up from dirty or hard water. Of course if you can afford one of these things you could probably feed it perrier bottled water and not be concerned.  Seems the cost of 20" rear tyres is going to be much more of a concern.
 
The tank is placed in what I think is very inconveniently in the boot floor where one would normally expect the spare to be located. This means that you have to move all your crap in the boot to get to the tank to fill it.
Surely they could have put a filler neck in a more convenient location like on the side of the boot wall.

For years I have championed WI and so often been dismissed because "if it worked it would be on road cars."  Well now it is and I'll bet now that BMW has it, other makers will follow suit. Must be a bloody cheap way to get an extra 54 HP without increasing fuel consumption, emissions or taxing other engine components.
Wait till some bright spark puts some meth in with the water and the thing goes even harder!

Just watch Ed, in another few years WI will be all the rage and people will be telling us how great it is like we didn't already know.  If my past experience with morons in the veg oil/ automotive/ photographic and other games is anything to go by, the ones making the biggest noise about it will be the very same ones that ridiculed us in the past as if we were idiots and will then be holding themselves out as self proclaimed experts. 

Shame these beemers are going to be limited production run. We might have been able to salvage some parts off a wreck and set up our own computer controlled WI system on the Listers!
Might have to wait a bit longer and get one off some big deal, save the planet hybrid or maybe the latest 1.5L rice racer that suddenly picks up 50 Hp over the last model with the same engine.

Mechanics will be pulling down all these engines with 200K miles on them and wondering  who the fk got in there and polished the pistons and heads to the as new finish?


Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on October 24, 2016, 05:22:06 PM
Glort!

Woohoo..... He who owns the water, owns the world!! (To crib sumwun else I believe...)

Interestingly enough.... I have been doing some fine tuning on the WI on TM1.... Found the best balance for me as it currently stands is as follows:

750RPM
1770cc Displacement (Engine is rated 12Hp @ 1000RPM-Estimated output @ 750 is approximately 8Hp used)
4.4Kw Max Load Electrical
2.5Kw Avg Load Electrical
Fuel is Undiluted WMO (ex Petrol Engine and Diesel engine service center)
Water Flow = 2L/90mins ie 1.333L/Hr
Very little crank condensate present from the CC breather.
No oil contamination (emulsification) after 450hrs running - Checked at oil change and daily via dipstick.
Sludge was present, but WAY less than 100ml
Lube oil used - The crappiest, lowest quality, cheap arsed oil I could find of straight 30W(With an occasional top up treat of 20W50 found lying around)
Crank temperature in the region of 60 to 70C after 3hrs running.
Engine coolant operating temp is around 75C to 85C (Measured at water exit from head)
Exhaust heat exchanger is working well still.
Coolant heat exchanger working beautifully.
WI is NOT shutdown when cold/starting.
Started on WMO or diesel, little difference perceived. (Electric started after approx 30-45sec spinning for initial lube circulation.)
Lube Oil consumption has settled down now, after approximately 1100Hrs on WMO as fuel - Since the rebuild, TM has run mostly undiluted WMO.
(Possibly had a gummed up oil control ring straight after rebuild...Hold Thumbs)
On occasion, I mix in up to 20% reclaimed paraffin/turps/thinners(When a batch of oil is problematic and too thick)
I have not de-watered the fuel oil I have run on since the rebuild, it is settled, filtered through a sock filter, put into bunker, settled and then used.
Occasional brief stints on diesel during day runs if there is a major carbon build up (A few mins at a time, with a heavy dose of water to clean.)

(Okay, I know I was a bit verbose.... Just saves a bit of searching time for someone who wants to try do similar to destroy their engine... )

Maybe we can send these specs to BMW......

Keep it spinning

Cheers
Ed

PS - How often do you change your sump oil of your thumpers?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselgman on October 24, 2016, 05:39:43 PM
Very enlightening and thorough description Ed! Much appreciated input here!

Wear and tear details once you get a few thousand hours (or tear-down time again) will also be most welcomed!

dieselgman
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on October 28, 2016, 09:22:25 AM
Hey Guys,

Just a quick question - Is there anybody else on the forum that is CURRENTLY running either a standard(No Mods to timing/stock standard) or modded(with WI/Injector line heating/Injector Timing changed etc) Lister type engine on a greater percentage of WMO than Dino?

Keen to hear....

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on October 28, 2016, 01:50:38 PM
Hey Guys,

Food for thought, musings and number doodling:

Actual fuel consumption(WMO) based on 4Kl approx fuel used over the last year or so:

Approx .6L/KwH electrical generated at plug.

Add to this a couple of overheads, namely a 50W cooling fan running virtually 100% of the time, the main cooling fan which kicks in about 10 to 20% ie 15% of the time depending load and ambient temperature of about 370W, a circulation pump for heat exchangers rated at around 1.5A, currently drawing about an amp ie 220W.... These are all before the KwH meter.... so a total additional electrical overhead of .64KwH...

Invert the .6L/KwH and we get 1.655KwH/L

Factor the overheads in and we get a total output from gen of around 2.296KwH/L, which equates to .436L/Kwh generated.

At an average SG of .85 for Generic Motor Oil, .436X0.85 = 370g/KwH electrical generated output at genhead.

Now taking the average efficiency of a genhead and belt drive at around 80%(Bit of a thumb suck), that gives about .370 x 80% ie 296g/KwH actual at engine output shaft.

This particular engine was spec'd at around 270g/KwH (if I remember correctly) under ideal load conditions so a 10% increase in consumption for crappy waste fuel, highly variable loads and doing everything you shouldn't do to a poor old engine seems pretty darn good to me.....

Now the happy bit: As it is a "Cogen" type setup, generating usable heat and power - The heat recovery is being used to generate hot water, recovered heat from coolant and exhaust heats up 300L of water from around 20C to 65C in about 2Hrs... That is a total of around 7.7Kw making the recovery around 3.9KwH of "waste heat"...

Well, what does this all boil down to?

If the WMO was purchased in its entirety at ZAR1.00/L (current going rate, bear in mind most of the oil was "donated"):

A total of around 4000L have been consumed, the return on which has seen 5% average sludge/water and filtering loss, leaving around 3800L of fuel oil...

Using 3800L of fuel, currently generating 1.655KwH/L (Average electrical load is around 2.2Kw/Hr) electrical and 3.9KwH heat reclamation, we get a total generation time of 3800*1.655/2.2=2858hrs(Not far off what has been measured)

Heat Generation = 2858Hx3.9KwH=11146KwH
Electrical Generation = 3800Lx1.655Kwh/L=6289KwH
Total Power Generation: 11146+6289 = 17435KwH

Assuming that water heating would come from grid power(cheapest) or Gas boiler(actual), using the cheapest grid method of heating:
Current Cost ZAR1.9172 / KwH
Total Projected Cost for time span calculated if ex grid: 17435*1.9172=ZAR33426(Around 15 months now)
Total Raw Cost of Fuel if not donated: ZAR4000
GP Margin/Saving: Around ZAR29500 (Lots of Smiles)

Now, before you rush out and buy a case of champagne to celebrate:

Costs in round figures ZAR for the last while(15mo)-
Engine: 18000
Genhead: 4000
Belts/Pulleys/Steel/Piping/Fans and Switches: 5000
Filters/oil and Service costs: 2500
Total of:29500(About break-even).....oops, looks like its not so cheap after all!

Scratching the memory banks, the following things peek through:
Probably another 2500 or so in sundry bits
Add a head gasket or two + rings: 1000
Time to construct....Eek!
Raw Oil Processing tank: ....Oops..
Oil transfer Pumps:...  Duh...
Cables and Auto Grid Switchover kit: ....Don't go there...
Closure and Doors to Weatherproof ....Damn....

Right, so add it all up and it should pay for itself in another 1 000 years or so....

Keep it puffing!!

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on October 28, 2016, 03:59:47 PM

You certainly love your Maths Ed! :0)

To make sense of this I had to convert your money into mine.  In doing that, I found the numbers quite compatible. You pay what I would expect to for the same things. The Americans of course would pay 10% of that and still think they were paying too much and complain!  :0)

I wouldn't put a lot of stock in teh Fuel consumption numbers quoted by the engine manufacturers. Every engine I have seen quotes the same 270g.  I find it VERY hard to believe that with all the makers/ assemblers out there that every single one of them gets the exact same consumption from their engines in any configuration.  Clearly they copied someone's numbers and just keep doing so.  I have seen pics of the china engine factories with labs and clean rooms that look like they might test something but never anything like that to make me think many if any of the Indian makers worry about it.
I can't see them doing any sort of worthwhile consumption testing when they can't even be bothered to clean the casting sand out of sumps properly or make sure the engines are decently balanced.
And of course the other thing is like pretty much everything else on Flea bay, the numbers are going to be rubbery as hell anyway.   Like the 12V inverters I was looking at  that claim 1000W continuous output but only have 2x 30A fuses on the 12V Side.  Hmm, slight problem there and it's with credibility.
I believe Motor oil and veg both have about 10% less energy than Dino so on that basis, you are spot on the numbers.

I have seen people here crunch numbers, I have seen calcs from the US and the UK and they all add up to the exact same thing.....  Even with free fuel, you can't generate electricity in many places cheaper than you can buy it from the grid but the heat may even things up depending where you are.   Imagine how those poor  (Must be, literally) folks are that have to BUY their engine fuel!
No real wonder solar has taken off.
Of course if you are off grid using storage, I believe the life cost of batteries puts the cost of power over the grid price when averaged out over the years.

If you only needed heat, an oil burner would probably be a far cheaper way to produce it.  Only power input required would be 12V. You could probably meet demand easily with a couple of 250W solar panels and a couple of deep cycle batteries.
I was looking tonight at some country hideaway properties to potentially put a shack on. I'd like to do a container house one day and the wife surprisingly is on board with it.
What would be high on the list for me would be a flowing stream or spring through the property.  This would allow for a Micro Hydro setup which I think, in the less than frequent times it is available, Could be possibly the best source of DIY power.

I did find one place not too far away that had a 10M waterfall and a very good flow as well.  As the watercourse was over a rock bed, it would be very easy to make a dam and of course being in a rocky area, there would be plenty of natural materials to utilise. Would not take much at all to set up a very decent MH plant.  Even in the low flow tines, It would be easy to shut down the genny at night to let the water build up and give power through the day or do it the other way round and run off solar through the day and use the MH at night.  Wouldn't be an issue I don't think. The area has year round good rains and it was plain to see with that location that you could generate far more power than you could use in the sort of place you would use the property for no matter what creature comforts you had.

I also found another place that has a long frontage to a very fast flowing and substantial all year round Creek.
The beauty of that one would be you wouldn't even have to do any earthworks or building.  I'd make up a floating generator like a paddle wheel pontoon.  Just float the thing out on the water and run the cable back to shore.  If one genny wasn't enough power, add a 2nd or 3rd. Or just build a bigger one.  You certainly aren't going to slow this water down.  A large paddle wheel could be made to pull some real torque that would allow the speed of the thing to be geared up substantially and some real good power extracted.

While maybe not that cheap to run, I guess for a lot of people like yourself their engines are the difference between electric appliances and candles and boiling a pot of water on a wood fire to take a bath.
One thing in your favour though, your figures include an amount of setup cost parts and equipment that will be amortised over the next year.  The next 12 months will make the figures look better and I'll bet there is also some " Fun factor" in those numbers that need not absolutely have been spent :0)  You hopefully won't need a new engine, gen head, pulleys, control equipment etc so the removal of those costs will make a big difference to your 2nd year figures and you may well break the DIY generation/ grid cost equation.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 01, 2016, 08:27:56 AM
Hey Glort,

I reckon the fun for me, is well, making things work! I love to take a sideways look at things and play the "what if" games .... Satisfying to do on a practical level. (Of course, a lot of the scenarios played out are false starts and blind alleys, but with the practical aspect, most of it can be worked around!

I am "eventually" getting round to doing the full prep on TM2 - As I am stripping him down, I am modding and polishing the innards to a level that I am satisfied with. Most of him is sitting on the bench, mods done now, as well as cleanup and smoothing. The last dozen or so bolts have to be pulled out to remove the crank and trumpet housings, but I am playing with an idea to make up an adjustable bushing for his cam idler gear. The existing bolt for it is in fair condition, but I am not entirely happy with the mesh depth on the teeth. I am toying with the idea of making a double eccentric bush to adjust the mesh on both the cam and the crank gear simultaneously. I have noticed the racket the cam idler makes on TM1 and want to get away from that. The only downfall is that I will have to machine the hole for the idler pin quite a bit larger than it is currently. I haven't taken measurements yet so I am not sure as to the material availability on the trumpet housing....more on that later when I have a good squiz at it!

Another thing I will be toying with is to fit dual flywheels on both sides, that will be quite an exercise in packing things together as I intend to try and use gib keys if at all possible... The heads on the gib's mean there has to be a bit of space between the bosses of the wheels.... The long crankshaft ends are starting to get short!

On another note, we have a small perennial stream on our property with a few metres of runoff, but there is one major problem - Crime! A micro CHP setup would be an awesome project, but the transmission lines if we generated power and piping if we pumped water, would get stolen within a week. ANYTHING left on the property containing copper/aluminum out in the open, whether secured, buried, aerial or probably even guarded with armed guards gets appropriated by the local "its our right" crowds for scrap resale... Ye gods, they even steal our safety nets for the paintball range... (And these are just shade cloth)... We even have a cellular telemetry tamper alarm hooked to them to try and curtail losses... I have given up trying to erect spotlights over the playing field for night games - We installed spotlights with an aerial supply cable on 3m high poles first - they lasted a week or two, the next batch were installed on 12m high poles, they lasted a two months. Both lots were stolen, cables first, then lights, then poles.... This is 200m in clear view from the house, usually around 3am they move in and help themselves.... Off-pissing to say the least!! (I wish I could erect a 6m security wall around the entire place... That would probably get stolen too though...)

Enough ranting...time to go do some work!

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 01, 2016, 12:12:30 PM
(Let's Try this again... Damn laptop crashed!)

Minor update:

There is about 1/2" of material around the hole for the idler spindle(On the trumpet housing flange), opening up the hole in the casing et al by about 1/4" should leave enough material to allow for the eccentric bushing... Next step, check the idler spindle step to see if there is enough meat to allow for it to clamp and seat in the normal manner and still cover the eccentric bushing with overlap.... (In the words of an old machinist mate of mine: "Measure carefully, lest the ID become greater than the OD!")

Keep on modding...

Cheers
Ed

Another Update: The difference in dia on the pin is around 1/4"... ie about 1/8" per side... Given that the mesh is probably less than 20 thou out, a double eccentric bush might still be feasible - failing that, I might have to settle on a single eccentric bushing to get things into line once it is measured up and ready...
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on November 01, 2016, 03:57:19 PM

What do you want to achieve with the double flywheels Ed? smoother running particularly with regard to the power pulses?  Would the extra wheels be balanced in themselves rather than counterweighted or will they be offset to the other flywheel?

I have a couple of suggestions in regards to your " Pest" problem.

1. Make sure the power from the Micro Hydro is transformed to a voltage to minimise transmission losses.  About 10 Kv ought to do it.  You might have to shut it off for a minute or 2 each morning to clear away the charred remains of the nocturnal animals whom happened to get a bit too close during the night. You wouldn't want them to build up and short out the transmission lines.

2. .50 BMG. 
    700 Nitro express if that is more readily available there.  Claymore's and 10G on movement detectors may also be effective.

My father had a very similar problem in his Wrecking yard when he first moved in there. Shortly after getting a well trained K9, he came in one morning to hear the dog barking but it would not come to him.  Upon investigation, he found a couple of blokes from the local tribe whom had " accidently " jumped the fence shortly after he had left the night before and got bailed up by the dog.
They spent the whole, very cold night in that striped out wreck  with the dog apparently sleeping  most of it on the roof or the bonnet.

The cops arrived a couple of hours later ( Dad apparently got busy and forgot to call them for a while and the dog seemed quite content where it was)  and he gave them a ride round the front to where the cops were in that same car.  Of course the car didn't have an engine so he had to hoist it up on the forklift to get it round the front and then thoughtfully left them up there well out of harms way while he had a chat to them and the dog made itself very comfy on the seat of the fork.  Even the cops expressed surprised when they discovered where these fellas were 16Ft up on the fork.  Dad's just a really forgiving and hospitable guy like that.
 The cops managed to persuade these poor mis guided chaps to tell their mates whom might also loose their way to tell them the way around the yard and my father had no more problem after that.

Could you possibly get a trained dog or maybe the local animal shelter has a spare Lion they might be looking for a home for where they can be well fed fresh, live meat ???

BTW, What the F.... they do with shade cloth and lamp posts?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 02, 2016, 08:34:40 AM
Hey Glort,

I ran some tests a while back - running at around 500RPM TM1 worked well. He had enough power to pull the average off peak load on the household and was nice and quiet. One problem that surfaced, was the fact that my UPS's - 3 of them, all complained bitterly about the power quality and fell back to battery standby due to the pulsing. I am hoping that the additional flywheel weight will give just a little more stability to the power stroke to allow them to run quietly.... (All other household electrical goods worked flawlessly.)

The wheels are individually balanced, no counterweights. I am adding counterweights to the inboard wheels to allow for silk smooth running throughout the rev range I will be using(Well as smooth as a big vertical single can be made!). Out of the four wheels I am using, (two of which were scrappers for rated 1000rpm, but have been retested and prepped for 500rpm), there are 3 sizes - the 2 identical wheels will be on the IP side and the Larger/smaller two will go on the far side...If it all works out as planned anyway. I have also gotten hold of a LARGE CI pulley which I might add as a flywheel on the genhead itself, just  need to get it qualified to the rated revs, if indeed I do decide it needs more smoothing - I am not wild about genhead flywheels in general though....

Vermin control is usually with 12ga around here... Youtube the Rhodes University Riots to see... About the 10Kv option...That's a no-go... The buggers steal 22Kv lines by throwing chains over them and shorting them out... they then haul on the chains to pull down the lines and make off with them once the lines trip out on overload... The problem here is the number of escape routes for the miscreants to use - Now and than I have caught and handed over a few of the perps but they generally come late night/early morning and being naturally camouflaged, they are difficult to see in bad light....

Putting in K9 or NO17 control is also not an option for me... the "risky area" has about 1 to 2 km of fencing that will be needed - the original fencing was stolen and I cannot afford to replace it. The "residential section" has CCTV and monitored electric fencing, even that's a pain to maintain as the locals take great delight in herding cattle into the fencing to test them regularly...

Shade cloth = insect screens for shacks, small chicken cages, walling for goat pens.
Lamp posts = main bearers for huts, corner posts for shacks, firewood, fencing and the like(If wood), steel lamp posts get folded up and traded at the scrap yard!

Welcome to the land of milk and honey (Easily attainable from your neighbor for free!!)

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on November 03, 2016, 12:04:46 AM

Hi Ed,

The pulsing with these singles certainly is a problem.  I made up a frame for a 12 Hp Ruggerini Single a few weeks back to drive an induction motor set up as a generator.
First mistake was to mount everything with coach screws in the 6" thick hardwood beams. Barely 3 hours of running and they either snapped or came loose.  Next I went and bought bolts and oversize washers and remounted everything with those right through the timber. All locked down good and tight.  Again, couple of hours running and everything is as loose as a dick in a shirtsleeve. Bolts were secured with liberal dabs of silicone in the threads and haven't come loose like that, just the hammering of the engine seems to have basically enlarged the holes in the hardwood and created a heap of slop in everything.
I think this thing hammers just as good as any roid, even my typical example that is a mile out of balance.
I'm really wondering now if perhaps the best use for this engine is to build myself that plywood boat I have been thinking of forever or just modify and drop it in a tinny.
I'm not considering welding up a steel frame or if I'm just chasing my tail with this to start with.

I'm running the motor with capacitors to turn it into a genny then rectifying that to DC and feeding it into a solar inverter. Like your UPS, the thing has trouble establishing a "lock" on the power to start with then when it does the readings are all over the place constantly.  Not sure if putting a cap across the DC lines would help or even work.

This engine runs smooth, it's just that single power pulse thing that does the damage. It's also hammering the Pulleys and makes the belts chirp under load no matter how over tight you make them.  It's not a matter of the belts, they were fine when the electric motor was driving it's full load, it's the way the power is delivered that is the issue.
I was just looking at things the other day and asking myself if I'm going the wrong way by bothering with singles? The brother in law just bought yet another generator for his battle ship and is only fitting the gen head rather than the twin cylinder engine.  I have offered to buy the leftover engine from him but being that he always knows what's best for me and has made decisions about what I do and don't need in the past, he's just as likely to sell or give it away than sell it to me.

Seems to me that there is a lot more to getting a setup with a single right than what I'm really interested in dealing with. I have played a lot in younger days with 2 strokes and 5Hp industrial petrol engines driving alternators and generators and had no problem but when it comes to real power and torque from a Diesel, it's not so straightforward I'm learning.

I have a 5 Cyl, 3L Merc engine out of my first Veg mobile that I am thinking I'll wait till I get to new digs and setup.  I could power anything with that and I know from driving it for 3 years it won't have any of the single Vibration and pulse issues.  I'd like to get a 15 Kw or so 3 phase motor and put it on the merc engine and also drive a few alternators for 12V. With that done I would probably get rid of the roid although if  real Lister came along in good nick I might grab it. The other option is a Chinese horizontal. the little one I have is a fantastic little engine and was something I could play with straight out of the box rather than have to work on to get in running order from new. I'm thinking that they probably aren't going to be any different to anything else with regards to pulsing once I get to a 12- 10 Hp version.

The other option I'd like is a small Kubota or similar multi cyl industrial diesel but at the prices they go for here, I could buy 2 good used petrol car engines and still have enough left over to buy all the fuel I'd ever need just amusing myself with them.
There is a guy across the road from me that goes to china about 4 times a year to buy parts for his automotive business and he's offered to organise and bring stuff back for me in his containers so I'm going to talk to him about taking him up on his offer and see what can get for what sort of money.


I sure don't envy you and your pest problem.  It sounds like they have the creativity of inmates of a prison and the same sort of treachery and lack of respect for anything and anyone.   Perhaps spraying would be effective like it is on a lot of pests? I'm sure a man of your talent could "fix" an auto so it sprayed some 00 at a very impressive rate.
I take it there is no interest from the law in doing anything, that's why they can do what they do.

Bit like that where my father is now.  The lowlifes always play the part of the victim and blame government, social services, Booze, drugs, the price of fish in Bulgaria and everything else and short of causing bodily harm in front of 10 witnesses, the cops can't be stuffed even coming out when you call them. But of course they get really upset when anyone actually does anything particularly if it is effective and makes them look as useless as they largely are.
 
Things sure have changed.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 03, 2016, 09:05:02 AM
Hey Glort,

I don't know the Ruggerini very well, but something in my memory banks says "look at rated operating speed" and "injection timing" - The Rugger was rated for a fairly narrow rev band if I remember correctly - it had a flywheel and balancing to match the revs needed for the application - Smaller flywheel for higher revs... Now this is going back quite a few years, so I might be way off track, but some bright sparks this side of the pond changed the injection timing and the rev range to bring the rpm down a bit, without looking at the dynamic balance of the things... The result was, well, as per Lister spec, "about 2ton of concrete should hold it down"...

Check where the "sweet spot rpm" is for your rugger by running it unloaded on a fairly "mobile" mount... Where it runs smoothly, aim for that! ... The power pulses will be a headache, with any sort of coupling, the best would probably be to go over spec on the belts somewhat - If you need one, use two... You could retard the injection event slightly-watch for smoking and power drop off, also listen to the diesel knock. This would smooth out the whole thing a bit, but, there is always some sacrifice in doing it.

Your problems with bolts breaking seem more to me to be with vibration from balance than the power stroke (Look at the amount of metal in shear or contact holding the flywheel from spinning on the crankshaft vs the hold-down kit...) ... But hey, I am an old fart with a bad memory, anything is possible! (That's the great thing about putting on a few years, as the memory fades, old problems are forgotten and the same ones crop up  recurrently to be solved as new problems all over again!!)

Do you have a youtube vid of the Rugger running that shows a bit of the vibration(and also the sound)?

Quote: "The lowlifes always play the part of the victim and blame government, social services, Booze, drugs, the price of fish in Bulgaria and everything else and short of causing bodily harm in front of 10 witnesses, the cops can't be stuffed even coming out when you call them. But of course they get really upset when anyone actually does anything particularly if it is effective and makes them look as useless as they largely are."

I couldn't have put it better myself! The last time I "arrested" a pair of miscreants who were caught in the act stealing (I confiscated their weapons - machetes and axes ) and threw them off the property after confiscating their barrows containing stolen goods... About an hour later, they were back with the cops to try and lay a charge against me for theft of their possessions... Fortunately, the chap in charge listened to what I told him and gave the two fellows a "good talking to".... It could have gone either way, I was just lucky I guess... Welcome to the endangered species list!!

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on November 03, 2016, 03:49:09 PM

Hi Ed,

This engine had quite a large flywheel for it's size, bigger than my China diesels but then again it is wtice the power. It's rated to 3600 rpm which seems high to me but like it's stablemate Lombardini I have, they rund very smooth at that speed so there may will be something to your memory after all. Just no way I want to run the things that fast!
You can run the thing at anything above fast idle and it won't hop around but it will vibrate itself all over the concrete and it's hard to put enough weight on it to stop that. It will just walk around, mm by mm till it hit something solid and then rubs up against that.

As with the Lombardini, I got some of that white styrofoam and sat the framework on that. It basically compresses it down after a couple of hours till it starts walking round again.  I put the thing on some car gearbox mounts to try and smooth it out but that wasn't really successful either. I think they were too soft!
I went out today and was looking at the thing doing the mental arithmetic and was wondering if I mount it on a steel frame with 4 rubber castors/ tyres if that would help? I could bolt it down to the cement but I don't want to.  I was also thinking of anti vibration machinery footings which are usually adjustable to get things level. I thing they would just slide around on the concrete as well.
 
I was looking for Microgroove pulleys on fleabay but couldn't find any.  I was also thinking of something like a locking collar that was keyed and then use a harmonic balancer  off a car that is a MG as well and weld the 2 together so I can use that as a pulley.
Really getting a bit tired with all the effort to make them work, I just want to play  with them  and just fiddle with the electrics not the basics of getting one to turn the other properly.
I haven't got any Vids, I wanted to get the things sorted so I could do some on the induction generator setup and using car alts.

Isn't it amazing how the soft of heart and head leftist approach has infected the whole world and and all the authorities in it? No one wants to really do anything against low lives and scum these days.
I try to abide by the law and uphold common decency and morals but it seems fewer and fewer do and those that have no such principals are rewarded with getting away with more and more all the time.

I have not had much to do with my father for many years but with his bitch of a wife finally doing the right thing and kicking the bucket, we have become a normal father and son again.
I found out his piece of scum next door neighbour has beat him up 3 times and put him in hospital.  the cops did nothing much more than ask if he did it and went away when he said no. My father has had to go through courts and lawyers to get AVO's which require him to stay away from my father and only last 12 months.  He breached the last one and was taken back to court where he was told if he appeared in the court again, he would be locked up, guaranteed.
He knows the system and how to work it too well so was continuing to intimidate my father and make his life hell. I went to the cops myself and was basically dismissed and treated like an idiot. One seniour moron had the audacity to ask what my then 75 Yo father was doing to upset the guy and motivate the neighbour to want to harrass him. I swear, I'm not a violent man but if they mongeral had not been in uniform, anyone else would have multiple split second dental extractions.  The neighbour is known to them for all sorts of reasons from assault to theft and embezzlement along with drink driving and drugs charges.
Still, he walks around free.

Since I came back on the scene, things have gone very quiet.
I was with my father in town early on when we started associating again and the guy went to have a verbal go at my father.  When I stepped in he went to take me on until his " case worker" appeared from somewhere and bundled him into his car and took him away.  Went to the cops and they did as usual, nothing at all .Wouldn't even make a record of it even though my wife and I witnessed it as did this other person.
He turned up a couple of weeks later at my fathers place abusing him again claiming my father had taken furniture from his place and pointing out some probably 50 Yo kitchen chairs out on the verandah were his and threatening to burn my fathers house down.  Cops were called and again said nothing they could do.

There is no truth to the rumor at all that a week later when my father told me, I went up there a few days later and had a " Discussion" with him in the early hours of the morning. There is similarly no truth to the unfounded and completely baseless rumor that I threatened him, I had a baseball bat with me I applied to his throat with him pinned against a wall to make sure I had his undivided attention while I spoke to him or I was even there.
Similarly, there is also not a shred of truth to the vicious gossip that a friend of mine and his brother, a man with military training  whom made a good living in the boxing ring after leaving the service, also happened to pay him a visit when passing through town and found him down the end of the road fishing, also made less than friendly statements towards him with talk about broken limbs and other actions upon his person that may result in the loss of his " manly" function.

I really don't know how these rumours and vicious lies get started. I spose it's all to do with the small town thing and people having nothing to do with their spare time they let their boredom and Imagination get the better of them.  I will say though it's pretty pathetic how someone will threaten a 75 Yo man but when someone their own age and size comes along, they turn to water.
My wife and I were visiting early in September and waiting for my father outside the Chemist. My wife alerted me to the fact the POS was walking up the street.  I walked into the middle of the footpath and just watched him. The moment he saw me was very evident by the interruption to his stride and the look on his face.  He started averting his Gaze then crossed the street watching me the whole time and then crossed back again to get in his car and drive off.

What is quite amazing to me is whenever I am up there, I so often just happen to be out the front when he is coming in or going out.  It takes like 5 seconds to drive past and he probably only comes and goes a few times a day if that ( and never regularly being he hasn't had a job in years) but so often, I am in the right place at the right time and he sees me there. I only go out with my father for a short time to fill the birdbath and water a few plants but the timing seems totally uncanny.  That is just pure co incidence but geez if there is such a thing as karma, there is the proof!  The more he thinks I'm there the better.

This guy was too clever to really take much notice of the cops but something, I have no idea what,   :angel: must have made him change his outlook. haven't heard or seen a thing off him for over a year now and as long as that's the way it stays, everything will be fine and he can live a happy, healthy, all bones in tact life.
It amazes me now how the first thing anyone cries about is the guilty parties " Rights" but the victim is either ignored or tried to be made out is somehow at fault for the actions of the low lifes.
There is the right way of doing things with police and courts and lawyers that costs a lot in time and money but gets little results. Then there is the quick, clean and efficient way of doing things that the bleeding hearts ( and authorities) always complain about and try to deter despite the fact that is serves justice 1000X times better and looks after the law abiding and decent people.

That said, if this POS ever sets foot on my fathers property again, I would never have his knees or legs broken.  I'm just not that kind of a guy that would possibly put someone in a wheel chair for the rest of their life so they couldn't do a thing for themselves or to "help" anyone else. 
I would call the police and have them do nothing, once again, because that's the right thing to do and doing the right thing by a proven and convicted low life is far more important than taking measures that are unlawful but would secure the safety and health of my father.

Really, I'm a kind hearted sweet guy that always forgives and forgets and always does the right thing.   :laugh:




Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 04, 2016, 07:05:04 AM
Hey Glort,

And you forgot to add in closing: An excellent cook. homemaker, handyman, lover, sensitive.....(you are not gay are you?.... I vaguely remember a joke based around the perfect man on these lines...)

But seriously though, since they stopped dishing out a good hiding for being naughty at school, things have spiraled.... You cannot reason with someone who has no fear of repercussion...

Then again, it is really difficult to enter into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent!

Keep on smiling (Or try to at least!!)

Cheers
Ed

PS - on another note, while on the subject of Lister engines, TM1 has now almost 100hrs on him since the last oil and filter change/service.... Since the service, the oil level hasn't dropped by more than a couple of mm... If you remember me mentioning (take that as griping) that he needed an almost daily top up to keep the level up.... I haven't pulled the cylinder or decoked the ring grooves at all.... I am highly suspect that running on WMO immediately after and since changing the rings did not allow the rings to bed in normally - It looks like its taken around 800hrs or so to get things "groovy"! ... Possibly the added lubricity of the WMO as a fuel? ... Starting on WMO? ... Turning the motor over for 20-30 sec with it injecting WMO before starting?(My simple mind has remembered that most engine wear occurs immediately at startup, before oil has had a chance to lube everything-Coincidence?) .... Who knows? ... But it will be interesting to see the condition of the internals and the run time to failure when he falls apart again!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 07, 2016, 01:20:04 PM
Hey Guys,

Another episode on the "Interesting Times" or otherwise known as the "Don't Double-Time your Lister(oid), It Will Get Jealous!!"

I spent Friday evening in the welding shop, arb-ing around and knocking up some "basic stainless steel 5mm bar racking for a wet environment" (A facecloth, soap and shampoo shower rack doesn't sound nearly as impressive!), while TM1 thumped away beautifully for around a 10 hour shift, I started him running early in the mid-afternoon and ran him all the way through to late evening. He was a little "wandery" in the revs department/governor by late evening, I put it down to a prematurely clogged fuel filter.(This one only did about 100L of prefiltered gunk, as opposed to the last one, same make and model, which did almost 700L or thereabouts.Anything is possible, possibly I contaminated the fuel during filtering, or maybe this batch had some extra fines in it, or maybe .... well whatever, but it happened!

The following day(Saturday) I continued with the leisurely tear-down of TM2, managed to measure the amount of slack that was evident the camshaft gear train....it worked out to 2.4mm that the center-line of the idler bolt was out(That's with 0 clearance on the gears and starting to bind...Allow about .4mm clearance on that measurement or so on an eccentric bush and that should give me a good starting point to get things together. The bulk of the clearance was on the camshaft side of things, there was just a wee bit too much slop on the crankshaft meshing side, a little inwards would do the trick... More on this later...

Once the measurements were made for TM2, I changed the fuel filter on TM1 (Mutter, mutter, mutter... Cross threaded the damn thing and stuffed up the threads... Fixed that minor stuff up and carried on!) Once the fuel system was bled, I started him up and away he went, takes a few minutes to get the last few bubbles out of the lines that trap in the high parts of the crappy fuel line routes I have taken and the new filter cartridge, but nothing serious, no great pain...

Of course, I did do the cursory checks , oil level still above minimum, water present and accounted for, valves and rockers oiled, tappets oiled, governor linkages oiled.... Run up on the starter for around a minute or so(maybe a bit less)... Now, bear in mind, TM1 has been a bit of a thirsty bugger in the sump department up until about the last 120 hours or so ago. Just prior to his last 400hourly service about 100 hours ago, he stopped using sump oil and I have not had to top it up since service, even though I check it religiously before each run. I put that down to the WMO I am using having a higher than Dino lubricity and slowing down the run-in process...

A bit of Background: TM1 (and TM2) both have a sump with "apron" - the oil is picked up through the strainer in the apron and pump to the TRB's / Crankshaft pickup ring after going through an aftermarket canister filter. This system has worked beautifully for the last couple of thousand hours or so. I have added a dipstick to the apron side of the engine, the high oil mark has been calibrated to when the oil level is just below the big end housing/nuts at BDC, the low oil mark is when the apron weir notch is just exposed above the oil by about 1/4 to 1/2" - this is a far more meaningful (to me anyway - correct me if I am wrong) way of checking the oil level - the original dipstick only shows the level in the weir..... The apron could be empty under certain conditions....

Right... Now the jealousy steps in - I am sure that TM1 was getting jealous of the attention I have been giving TM2... He threw his toys out of the cot and stopped his oil pump from doing anything... The bastard even hid it from me... The oil pump is still moving freely, just no oil is flowing....something has gotten stuck somewhere(probably one of the balls in the valves) and oil is just not moving!! - Net result: No oil flowing into the weir to be splashed around, no lube to the cylinder walls, no lube to the big end.... Piston seized in cylinder!! Fuggit!! Tomorrow is another day...

Sunday: Eventually got around to taking off the CC cover and poking around properly... I didn't pull the big end cap, but did feel it for play... Not much, if any, to be felt. I eventually got the bastard turning over and added copious amounts of lube oil to the top of the piston while doing so. Feels like the rings did a nice "jam job" in the upper cylinder. (I didn't pull the head, just gently bumped the flywheel back and forth to break things free.... It seems as if there is an excessive amount of play on the small end bushing, something to be attended to in the near future...)

Well, I figured, my bench is currently full of stripped down and mostly modded TM2... No way I am going to tear TM1 down as well... Lets do what the peasants do when the things gum up and stop working... Add oil, wind it over, see if it starts...

After allowing him a loooong wind over on the starter, I threw the compression relief and pump stop.... He fired right up!

He is breathing a little harder out of the breather, but no oil leaks as yet... Maybe there's broken rings, maybe there's a scored cylinder, maybe a galled piston... Maybe, at the very least, the rings cooked and softened... Who knows? (Anybody want to hazard a guess as to the damage?)

I will tear him down in the near future, but what pee's me off with this is that now my run time on these rings/cylinder with WMO fuel will be skewed... Oh well... just 900hrs of run time wasted from a data collection point of view... (incidentally, he is still running without oil pump... I am just keeping the oil level above the weir in the interim until I can get round to seeing whats crapped out on the pump....I wonder how long he will last?)

Keep it spinning

Cheers
Ed

Edit: On TM2's eccentric bushing for the idler gear - I drilled the casing and trumpet, then reamed the hole out to 20mm. Into this I added a tophat section bushing with the center hole to suit the idler spindle offset by 2mm. This is inserted from the outside and locked in place by the existing spindle. I have adjusted the play evenly on both sides and put a telltale mark on bushing and casing for reference. This has given me around 10 thou play(backlash) in both the crank and cam departments individually...  Initially I was looking at an eccentric in an eccentric type bushing, but with the play that was evident, there was just not quite enough real estate available to accomplish this.... This "fix" was a lot easier to do than remaking a stepped idler spindle... Once in place and tightened, it holds well and is easy to install.... Anybody wanting a picture? Just let me know!!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on November 08, 2016, 01:53:53 AM

And you forgot to add in closing: An excellent cook. homemaker, handyman, lover, sensitive....

Your timing is priceless with that comment Ed!
Yesterday was our 24th wedding anniversary.  As my bride has been busy with her promotion at work and climbing the corporate ladder, I thought I'd do something special for the occasion and Cook Dinner.
The element in the oven went a while back and I got the replacement about a fortnight ago which has been decorating the kitchen bench most eloquently.   I replaced that, Fixed the fan so it was Fan forced again and even cleaned up my tools and the mess.

I went up the road, Bought her flowers and all the required meat and veges for one of my world famous ( in our household) roast dinners.
Now about 14 years ago I built a big brick wood fired Pizza oven.  We do all sorts of things in that, especially roasts.  Freaking easy, prepare eveything on a tray, bit of oil, salt, whatever herb, cover with foil, throw it in and recover a mouth watering delight 60-90 min later depending on how much pre heat time you had with the oven and using years of experience to gauge. I never get it wrong.

Being that the moron neighbours knocked the oven over with their excavator while building the high rise slum next door and I haven't bothered rebuilding it, I thought no worries, I'll just use the newly fixed one. Mrs continently rang while peeling my fingers....errr, vegetables, and I was able to pin point her ETA. These days she gets home when she walks through the door and it's a bit of a lottery as to when that will be.

Perfect. In goes the dinner, give the floor a sweep, do the washing up which kills my back with the sink being about a foot low, same as she is, and sit back and wait to look like a wonderful caring, handsome, sen...all those thing you said before.  Yes, comes in mucks around, starts pulling things out the fridge till I announce dinner is in the oven.  Score a few brownie points there and a peck on the cheek in appreciation.
so I leave her to watch her favourite bit of garbage on the box which turns out to be a double episode and I get busy and remember the dinner 90 min later.

Go check it and it's like hot and warmed through but still completely raw. WTF?  OK, crank oven higher. Another 45 min. Veges are still hard and raw in the middle. By this time she comes over to investigate and says the oven needs to be full bore for about 90 min. Hmmm.  So in total, the dinner is on for 3.5 Hours, we are eating at 9:30 PM and the Veges are still a bit firm in the middle. Lamb shanks were OK but a bit tough instead of the normal " suck the meat through a straw tender" like normal.

Don't plan on being here a lot longer but I'm going to pull what's left of the oven apart, fix the frame they bent and rebuild it.  Cooking with a wood fire in a pile of bricks I NEVER get wrong.  proper electric stove, pissweak !
Anyway, there were plenty of left over veges and my daughter enjoyed them when she got home from work at midnight which were now properly cooked thanks to my wife putting them back in the oven as it cooled.


Quote
But seriously though, since they stopped dishing out a good hiding for being naughty at school, things have spiraled.... You cannot reason with someone who has no fear of repercussion...
Spoke to a mate yesterday.  He separated from his good for nothing, blood sucking, stuck up, drunk, drug crazed, bimbo leach of a girlfriend ( I was always told if you can't say anything nice, ,,, so I won't tell you her bad points) 2 weeks ago. He was out on the weekend and got a call from a neighbour she was there tearing up the place. Broke in through a window and was throwing furniture around, shamsed the huge TV, pushed the fridge over, put holes in walls.... You name it.  My mate lives in surburbia and called the Cops 8 times in 7 hours before they came out. And that was only after he rang our solicitor mate and he told him what to say to get them out there. When they arrived they were indignant and said not much point us coming now, if she left you should have not worried us.

Yesterday  our solicitor mate rings the cops to have charges pressed. They wouldn't do it despite multiple neighbours witnessing what she did. They though my mate was killing her with all the screaming and noise going on and then discovered she was on her own in the place.  The cops told our Solicitor mate that they were too busy to be bothered with low priority things like Break and enter and malicious Damage and my mate should just take it up with the insurance company.

Unreal isn't it?
If he had even raised a hand to her let alone touched her, he would have been locked up just on her here-say.  6 people saw her destroy the place and they won't do a thing.  It's disgusting and exactly what you say, no wonder things are getting worse when the mongerals learn they can do things like this and there is no penalty.
Same as my POS neighbour. Built this monstrosity of a house delebritaly flaunting every building code, approval and zoning law and despite myself and 2 other neighbours complaining about while it was being constructed, the council and building authorities have done NOTHING about it.  He is living there illegality without  occupation permission, hasn't got a water meter and the water board well know it and have done nothing but sent him a $100 fine,  runs his Business illegally from the residential premises, The drainage does not work and every time it rains my place gets flooded 4" deep all over, he has an illegal gas connection which the gas company is also well aware of and even the power connection is completely non compliant which the power company have inspected, issued correction orders and then done nothing about in 4 months.

It is totally unbelievable that he can get away with this.  the neighbour on the other side wants to re build his place and I said learn from this, Do whatever the hell you want, don't get approval for a thing and you'll be fine. If anyone dose say anything. Point to the other joint and claim you are being unfairly treated and are part of some made up minority group and they will not say another word.

Still, Being the kind hearted guy I am I try to help when I can.  I thought I found some fertiliser the other day and having just had lovely new turf put in the back yard and watering it till I came home and found my place underwater, again, I thought I'd be the bigger man and put the " fertiliser" on the neighbours back lawn for him.  Imagine my surprise when I spread the 25Kg bag around and discovered when I finished it was all SALT  instead of lawn greener. OH well, I'm sure that won't hurt it. Much.

I just planted out all my Tomatoes and some other Veges and have some high powered LED floodlights that I put on them at night to make them grow.  Occasionally ( all the time) their aim seems to slip and they end up pointing to the bedroom windows. This seemed to upset him at first because he sent his son in to ask me to move them but I said NO, go away and haven't heard anything since although I know he complained to the local council.  He made a big fuss about it and the fact I like to play sound effects at night like stampeding cattle or steam trains going past and sounds of farmyard animals. The Screami9ng eagles and birds are my favourite. Such a shrill and startling sound when you are not ready for it, like at 3am.  I have trouble sleeping at night and I find if I play these sounds it helps me sleep. Of course the outdoor sound system is right beside his house where mine is much further away so I have to have it quite loud to be able to hear it even in the distance. I put the speakers in plastic bags to protect them from the weather and spaced them really far apart from one end of the driveway to the other... which is pretty much where his house runs.  It really does sound like the cattle are coming closer then on top of you then running off in the distance and the effect with the steam train is even better.  I found an old Sub woofer the other day so I'll put that out there to get a real rumble going and this new sound clip I found of a Jumbo jet coming in for a landing and hitting reverse thrust should be so life like.
I think my favourite sounds though are the gang shootings and police attendance clips along with the battle field and the circling Helicopter clips.  Those gunshots sound so real and thrilling in the dead of night.

Did you know that the most annoying sound  to the human ear is 3150 Hz and you can get a sound generator program you can put on and old phone and plug it in to a sound system and play it. Loudly?
I have tested it but it dosen't work very well. I put it on real loud everytime I go out but as soon as I'm out the driveway, I can't hear it any more.  I can when I come back home hours later but I shut it off then because obviously it's working, must be my poor hearing I can't discern it from the local shopping centre or wherever.

After all the trouble he has caused us and all the rules he has and continues to flaunt, it seemed really hilarious he should get so upset about someone else doing something wrong and bitterly complain. 
For once, the council took it very seriously. My wife, being head of the customer service department, made sure of it.  Given the slack arse council is at it's best at doing nothing, that's exactly what happened.  She wrote back 1 sentence saying given the premises was being illegally occupied, there was nothing council could do.  There is definitely no favouritism with our local mob whether you work for them or not. Everyone gets equally pathetic inaction.
I asked the other neighbours if they heard anything and If I was disturbing them and one said he got up one night and could hear the steam train and wondered where it was coming from but it wasn't enough to wake or disturb him and if he did hear it, he'd be happy knowing what it was and more over why it was! He said by all means, turn it up more!

The next door neighbour in his complaint described what I am doing as " Inhumane" .  Just wait till I get the mess they created cleaned up and I bolt my roid down on the concrete 900mm from their loungeroom /bedroom wall and start running it. It's well out of balance and shakes the whole slab but I can't see where that would be a problem anymore or the fact its unmuffled.  I can legally run it 7am till 8pm of a weeknight and 10PM of a weekend but if I forget to shut it off, who's going to come make me? 
Certainly not the cops and definitely not the council.  :0)

Hmm, haven't given the Italians a run for a few days, the Lombardini and Ruggerini.  Might go fire them up and give them a run.  They seem very noisy when you are 900mm away from them , but when I'm back in the house and have the door closed, I can barely hear them from 30M away at all.
Just that feint reassuring sound of independence.

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on November 08, 2016, 02:11:39 AM
I am highly suspect that running on WMO immediately after and since changing the rings did not allow the rings to bed in normally - Possibly the added lubricity of the WMO as a fuel? ... Starting on WMO? ... Turning the motor over for 20-30 sec with it injecting WMO before starting?(My simple mind has remembered that most engine wear occurs immediately at startup, before oil has had a chance to lube everything-Coincidence?) .... Who knows? ... But it will be interesting to see the condition of the internals and the run time to failure when he falls apart again!

I think you may well have something there Ed but look at the bright side, For the rings to take that long to bed in the wear in the bore must be miniscule.
As well as taking a long time to wear in, it's going to take a real long time to wear out..... or so I would have thought till your next post.

My roid is the non pump type. Could you put a slinger on TM to help keep it lubed till you get to fix the pump on the thing or do they already have have one?  If they don't, can you fit TRBS in place of the plain bearing and do away with the pump? If not, looks like a low oil pressure alarm or at least a gauge is on the cards.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 08, 2016, 11:00:08 AM
Hey Glort,

Always entertaining to read of your "practical solutions" to the neighborly problems!!

My nearest neighbor is about 2 or 300m away as the crow flies.... He has remarked, on occasion, that he likes similar music to me... He notices it generally on a Sunday morning when I throw the patio doors open on the bedroom, lie back in bed and wind up Led Zee, Boston, Deep P or the like.... Its amazing how far 2Kw RMS (Sony 1Kw RMS 7.2 with 2x500W Active Sub Woofers) of good stuff can carry on the morning breeze.... In fact, I often "get requests" to play a song or two from our paintball range.... and that's 300m from the house.... Strange.... Now that I come to think of it.... I thought my hearing loss was due to years of shooting....

While on the subject of Listers': As to the bore, I am sure the seize and stop did a bit of damage, not too much(at this stage anyway), but enough for me to want to take it down and do an inspection when I get a chance... I am still thinking, dunno why, that I might have a broken compression ring in the mix now...(there is no unusual "squeak/grating" sound at top or BDC that sometimes accompanies a broken ring as it starts to cant in the groove)... Just a gut feel....

TM1 does have a slinger, in fact its got a hollow dipper with an oversize slinger... All in, about as wide at the tip as a regular slinger turned sideways, so there should be plenty of lube all around... What worries me a bit, is how many iron filings from bore and rings are in solution now that the pump is not filtering the crap out... Oh well, it must just wait till TM2 is more of a single entity rather than a landscaping project!!

I am still loathe to install a low pressure alarm, trying to keep it simple... Far easier to just shift the "low oil" mark up on the dipstick up by 1/2" or so... that way, the weir notch is always wet and oil will be available in the top sump!! I did think of a sight tube of sorts, something like I have on my old "Elliot Universal Mill" - It shows oil when the pump is running...Must think about this one... Simple to put a up side down U bend in with a sight glass at the top to show....Hmmm....

Ron: I haven't forgotten you!! Post the reply you PM'd me on the open board here as a reminder... I will take a pic or two and URL them for everyone...

Right.... I gotta go earn some sheckles to pay for my mechanical addictions...

L8rs!

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 08, 2016, 12:39:17 PM
Hey Ron,

So much for earning $$$ to feed my habit....

Here's the pics: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 Offset Bush for Idler 20161107 (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 Offset Bush for Idler 20161107) .... Sorry about a) the crappy quality of the pics - b)the crappy machining...

The first two are of the bush installed and in position, the telltale is clearly visible... The next couple show it removed from the casing and in various positions to give a general idea of its shape... The last one is how it all looks when assembled, the bush is tapped into the crankcase/trumpet from the outside, then the idler spindle is inserted from the inside... All goes together quite easily...

This was about the simplest solution I could come up with to allow for "machining tolerances" of our Indian friends.... There are undoubtedly better ways of doing it, just not quite as quick, dirty and easy as this... Hand Drill, Hand reamer, vernier and a bit of time with a drill press and a 20mm piece of shaft could do it... Where I  machined up a bush with a built in washer, a 20mm shaft with separate washer would do just as well....

The overall outside sleeve diameter is 20mm, the bearing surface of the spindle is just over 22mm or so... there is not much "step" on the thick side of the bushing for the bearing edge to mate to the inner of the crankcase to keep the pinion straight, but by my reckoning it should just make it!

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: vdubnut62 on November 09, 2016, 12:17:55 AM
Thanks for that EdDee!  I was really gonna repost the IM but there is no outbox for it to be saved in and after a very good supper of broiled stuffed salmon and a passable liquor store boxed Moscato ( yeah nothing but the best snort here) I couldn't remember it word for word.
Ron.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselspanner on November 09, 2016, 06:50:00 AM
Hi Ed

I can't open the photo's of the bush, may well be me, A, i'm crap with the www, B I'm using a Chromebook and I've yet to master the little bugger!

Anyway, I'm off down to Spain to give a rich blokes 35m Med Sled a good thick coat of looking at, one of the engines is out of line with the gearbox and is trying to vibrate it's self to death. After the CS walking around the workshop I'll probably struggle to find anything.

The good news is I'll get a go in a shipyard and should be able to get a bush knocked up. I've not had time sort out how exactly much offset I need, by feel it was around a mil and a half (60 thou) how far out was yours?

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 09, 2016, 09:23:44 AM
Hi Stef,

If i took the absolute max that the idler could be in mesh while bottoming the teeth, it measured out to 2.4mm if I remember correctly. I backed the bush off to 2mm offset on the first try and that seemed to give me an acceptable level of backlash/clearance. Possibly knock up a 2mm/1.8mm and a 1.6mm offset and trial fit for best results maybe? They are quick to make on a lathe... Nothing fancy and surface/finish can be quite rough (The rougher the better, within reason of course, as this allows the bush to get a bit of purchase when tightened into the casing and not spin inadvertently) As to the length of the bush, measure your trumpet/casing thickness and give about 1/2mm clearance... The top flange of the bush only needs to be about 1mm thick or so, it is not a load bearing surface and is sandwiched between the nut and the trumpet flange.... (Alu num num would be a possibility too... MS is not a prerequisite..)

Cheers
Ed

Edit: Just checked the URL for the picture of the bush...Seems to be ok and visible from on my side....
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 09, 2016, 09:32:49 AM
Hey Ron,

Down in my household here, Muscadelle, red or white but preferably red is a cooking wine of choice.... I can drink at least 2 bottles while cooking supper!! Usually followed by a very festive and talkative mood, headache to follow.... Generally the meal tastes awesome to me after prepping it in this manner, cant vouch for the rest of the diners though...

Email me some of that samon....Sounds good!!

Keep it cooking

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 10, 2016, 02:13:10 PM
Hey Guys,

Did some number crunching and playing about....(After replacing the IP element on TM1....90 minutes of pissing around to get him firing was a bit much yesterday...At least I get 10/10 for determination... :( )

On to the numbers:
I took the Lister original specs for the 6/1 and the 8/1 and combined them into a Power vs Revs graph (I know that this is not strictly speaking correct, but it is close enough to what I need)

From 500RPM through to the rated max of 850RPM, the ratio is pretty much linear, there are a couple of under/over shoots, but the line is certainly straight enough to give an estimate of power output at an intermediate rev. If you use the formula: RPM/650x 6, it will give the estimated engine output at a specific RPM of your choosing.

ie: 850/650x6 will give an estimated output of 7.84HP (this is close enough to a 8/1 spec of 8hp to be believable)

The Lister rev specs can be used to estimate on an almost linear basis what shaft power will be available at a different rev.

Another example could be: 500/650x6 = 4.6hp (a little over, but not too far off the 500RPM Rating of 4HP for a 6/1 to be usable.)

Right, so I set about doing the number crunching on the old shagged-out TM1 - A Roid clone of 12/1 at 1000RPM spec.
Results: 750RPM - Calculated Power out of 9Hp (Interesting....Max continuous current draw I get out of the genhead lately is around 4.4Kw.... this looks believable as a quick calc is to check engine capability is to take Kw demand x 2 to give HP requirement of engine.)

Based on my numeric doddering around, the following info might be useful to someone, somewhere when they try and match up a power needs vs Revs on a 12/1/1000 Roid:
RPM....HP
500....6
600....7.2
650....7.8
750....9
850....10.2
1000...12

IIRC, the lowest figure was not too far off the mark either - I seem to remember just a tad over 13A at 220v when running in the region of 500RPM, giving an estimated engine output of about 5.7HP or thereabouts...Cool!!

Since the seize and immediate increase in blowby, I am pulling a max of 18A continuous at 215V from the genhead, rings have defs taken a bit of a hammering, this works out to around 3.9Kw where before it was about the 4.4 to 4.7Kw mark or so...about a 10 to 20% drop in output.... Time to get TM2 off the bench and do a ring job on TM1...!

I have decided that should the bore be scored, I will rebore and build up the piston to suit, the TiG machine is gonna come in handy for sure!! (Assuming of course, that my "run it to death" practice hasn't stuffed up things way beyond salvage.... In that respect, when is an item a throw away? I dunno, never had to throw any bits away as yet, except for IP elements and a warranty crankshaft replacement.... Far more fun to work 100000hrs rebuilding a governor linkage than buying a new one!!)

Keep it spinning....

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on November 10, 2016, 05:08:11 PM

Always interesting to read of your calcs Ed.

A lot of people go on about running a diesel without enough load and that this will ultimately damage it.  My experience has been that this is not necessarily true.
I don't like running any engine at high revs, I like to under drive them but you can still load them as long as you don't overload them.  I would prefer to have a 12HP rated engine outputting 6 or 4 than an engine of that rating running flat out. I dispute strongly that a diesel has to be run hard. I have run mine without problems well under their ratings for a long time and have yet to see any of the parroted gloom and doom.
I believe the Cylinder pressure rating is the important thing rather than RPM or max load.

I think running diesels hard is like a LOT of things claimed in many interests on the net. The actual instances of first hand accounts of the problem or theory actually occupying about about 1/10,000th of the stories and warnings carried endlessly on with. That and perceptions are so often based on the way things were 20-30 years ago and are hopelessly behind the times.  Ask the older generation ( us) what most of them thing about Automatic transmissions. Many base their positions on the worst attributes of 30 years ago not what the things are like now or even are in a 10 Yo car.

What I'd like to REALLY see is a wise and skilled man like yourself throw a Turbo on one of your engines.  Should be pretty simple really as you wouldn't have any limits or complication of an under bonnet fitments.
It would certainly help with your fuel consumption that's for sure.  I have been reading up on how Lindberg pretty much doubled the range of the P-38's during the war.  He reduced the revs on the engines but ran the turbos ( which were adjustable) at high boost and pitched up the props.  I reckon a turbo stationary engine would work the same.  Lower the revs, fuel and boost the thing up to make more torque and get better efficiency in the process.

Being at stationary engine with a small rev range, I don't reckon the choice of turbo would need to be very fussy either.  Find a small one and it should be fine. I don't think you'd want loads of boost, half an atmosphere would give an effective 50% more displacement. To get aound any pulsing problems would be easy. Just use an intake plenum  with 50% more capacity than the engine so any pulsing would be eliminated as the cylinder would always be filled to the desired boost.  I mucked around with turbo and supercharged cars in the 90's and using oversize plenum's overcame a lot of problems and gave good power benefits as well.

I have to say, with stories like yours and many others, I really wonder about listeroids being the best choice of stationary power.  I have not heard of near the problems with the Chinese horizontal designs and certainly my own single experience/ example leaves my roid for dead. I'm getting more motivated to get a bigger Chinese single and under drive that than worry about the roid. It seems to me the quality control of the chinese engines and the indians are light years apart. All my china engines, the not so as wonderful verticals ( IMHO) and the brilliant horizontal all came with rings, bearings, seals, gaskets and valves as well as tools in their own spares kit. Can't see the day when I'll need them as they just never seem to complain.

I'd dump the Roid in a second if I could find a good lister. Seen a few but they are always 3 Hp and I do want a 6.... or above.  Again where the China engines come in handy. Go up to 30 Hp if you want it and a stack of sizes and configurations in between.

If you did find TM was a bit toasted, I would highly suggest looking at importing yourself a Chinese Horizontal.
You might find getting the whole genset was a most viable proposition.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselgman on November 10, 2016, 05:53:56 PM
Take a look at the 18/1 DES with turbo that Bill Wood built - reported on this forum. He did a beautiful fabrication job on that and his results are quite positive.

Take it from a seasoned expert... diesels under light loads will often suffer from incomplete combustion of fuel (and the attendant slobbering or cylinder glazing). In addition, break-in can be challenging for some of them without working them fairly hard in their initial run-in period. Lister had quite a few problems with their new engines in this regard. I have also seen some very solid Caterpillar engines ruined by this very thing. Not a fault of the engine, rather a fault of the system being designed or utilized in less than an efficient and proper load regimen for the engine chosen. This does not mean anything at all about revs though... I concur that slowing them down and using that as the method of matching load to the actual output potential is a good way to go. Almost any combination that gives your machine good combustion properties (clean exhaust) will be a winner.

Match your machine size and configuration to the task/s at hand and you will likely get the best possible results.

dieselgman
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 11, 2016, 12:15:55 AM
Hey Glort/Gman,

Agreed on pretty much all points, with both of you:-)  (How's that for running on the fence line?)

Underloading to a minor amount is generally not a problem, underloading to less than about 25% or so for shortish periods is also not a major problem as long as distillate, good quality fuel is used (in these relics, as long as run in is complete). But.... run on reclaimed oil of higher than reccomended viscosity, with suspended carbon, non distillate, and you pretty much have to run at 70 to 80% of max load to prevent things from slobbering, glazing and becoming messy in general... Don't forget WI is pretty much a prerequisite too...

I am not wild about additional aspiration devices, not on these things, not in my scope of needs. I have enough power if 10hp or so is available to cover my base plus surge needs ...Incidentally, I have seen glazing cured, along with probably a few hundred hours of cylinder and ring life by a farmer pouring about 200ml of "Brasso" brass polish down an intake manifold... not something I would recommend by any means, but it did work and the machine did suddenly pull its finger out its proverbial orifice and start performing...

Glort, I am not sure if a turbo or boost device would offer me better efficiency... I only start rolling coal when I hit overload, and then its for a few seconds till the utility fallback kicks in. The other times he smokes up the place is when there is a carbon buildup in the idi or on the injector or when the exhaust clogs... The rest of the time, there is pretty much just a pale grey smoke, mostly due to WI probably...Or, if its really crappy fuel, I sometimes get brown smoke haze - really!

But, enough of that... I need to get TM2 online soon, as said previously, as I am stripping and prepping, I am doing the mods that I found most effective on TM1...

Its 01h35, I just sat bolt upright in bed... in the words of someone famous.... "I had a dream!" ... now, my dream entailed......

Both major failures I have had so far, have been lubrication related... OK, sure, the first failure where the one bearing lube standpipe tried to turn itself to dust and dump itself into the big end... well that was a bit unusual, a freak maybe... The latest one, with the pump doing its thing (still not looked at yet, just running on splash lube at the moment with a hollow dipper) .... Damage could have been minimised to a large degree, or even totally avoided, if the top sump was kept filled by another means.... So here's the idea...

Right...

Wait for it....

What if, instead of that bloody useless dipstick, I put an oil delivery system...Kinda like the old Honda bikes had... An oil tank with a tube stopping at the correct height to keep the top sump flooded? If oil level gets too low up top of the sump due to the pump going tits up, a bit of oil auto dumps until the right level is achieved... Life goes on.. I was thinking of something in the line of a pet rodent water bottle, prefabricated from unobtanium or something.... All that is needed is an air tight top and a ball valve on the bottom to shut it off for when it needs to be filled.... And a sight glass of course... Mount the whole shitstorm on the studs for the small cc cover plate, only needs to hold a pint or two........ Your thoughts?

My reasoning for this is that the hollow dipper works well... Really well.. the rest of the innards only need a wee bit of splashing to stay wet... the pump is not so much there to feed the TRB's and big end, but to get the oil to the sump, out from the front apron...(with a bit of strain/filter along the way... if a filter fails, bad luck, oil is still available... the bastard won't stop dead within 10 minutes... Lose oil, and things happen quite rapidly... (incidentally, bothe seizes I have had, have been within around 15 to 20 mins of startup... Coincidental, I think not.... I am putting it down to oil getting a chance to drain out of hot working parts after shutting down....)

Right, let me hit dreamland again and see if I can come up with some finer points for the auto fill system....

Keep on dreaming....

Cheers
Ed

PS...  Glort...there are probs millions of better engines than the roid out there.... but these damn things have some strange alluring quality that make u want to use them....  regarding lower revs and boost to get same power... well, I am approaching it differently with TM2... Low grade fuel, 500rpm, heavy wheels, long burn time, aiming at 6hp ie 3kw.... Let's see what pans out!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 11, 2016, 08:48:26 AM
Hey Guys,

More on dream planning....

Reserve oil top up tank-

Requirements:
Must be a bolt-on to the engine proper - No flexible lines to a remote tank for vibration to break off.
Must have capacity of around 1 to 2 pints.
Must be removable, to restore engine to original condition.
Must be "aesthetically pleasing"
Must be reasonably unobtrusive, fitting below camshaft outer area.
Must be robust, but not heavy, due to vibration present.
Must be easy to construct and install, made out of relatively common items.
Must be "airtight" to allow for "Gerbil Style" level control.
Must be (reasonably)adjustable to allow for fine tuning when running for oil level setting.
Must have External Level indicator such as oil sight glass for quick reference when the engine is running.
Must be "Idiot proof" in operation... Ok, this is a difficult one... the more idiot proof I make things, the more ingenious an idiot I become....

Of course, anything I come up with over here, you are all welcome to use!! (Royalties payable in frosty beverages with promises of "all expenses paid" trips abroad of course!!)

Hmmm..... Edit to follow.... More thought required....

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: Hugh Conway on November 11, 2016, 06:30:08 PM
Ed, sounds like a good idea.
It seems that there is plenty of splash to keep things lubed even if the oil pump fails. When the upper sump becoms empty though, no splash either!
An aux method of filling the sump is interesting and probably not too difficult to fab up.
I am wondering if crankcase pressure pulses will cause a problem. A check valve in there somewhere?
Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: BruceM on November 11, 2016, 07:56:47 PM
Good point, Hugh.  Oil level means little if the upper sump goes dry.  Float switches are a bust inside the splash sump- I tried that and it doesn't work.  I went to a sight tube with magnetic float and reed switch.  My older Metro 6/1 is a single sump type Listeroid. The low oil shutdown has worked well with my auto shutdown system and has saved me twice so far.  The upper sump level could be instrumented via tube also. but you'd have to drill and tap the upper sump and install a brass barb in it. Please note that the "open" end of the sight tube MUST be vented back to the crankcase or crankcase vacuum will foul up your oil level reading.  Perhaps a pressure sense switch on the oil pump would also suffice for oil safety.

My oil usage is so low that I would rather have low oil auto shutdown than another oil tank and associated plumbing.  I also do auto shutdown on vibration, temperature, and speed too high or low.  My engine is remote and I only visit every 8 hrs for oiling, and I check the  oil sight tube then.



Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 11, 2016, 08:28:53 PM
Hey Hugh/Bruce,

I have done a few prelim checks while running, the pulsing and splashing does cause a bit of a dump until vacuum in the oil container takes over and balances things out... I still have to ascertain the optimum diameter feed tube and position/depth into the sump through the dipstick hole.... too big/wrong depth or angle, and it catches too much pulsing from the dipper(probably some bubbles in the oil too), too small and there is just not enough place for a bubble of air to make its way up the pipe... it would be much easier to install the gubbins on the main cc door, but what I am trying to achieve is being able to run a full weir type system, with overflow and settling area with the emergency backup should the pump fail... if it does fail and the sump empties, there will be enough oil to fill the sump and apron to max mark, allowing for a pure splash system....

(Sorry, might be stating the obvious, but helps me to jot it down... slows the grey matter and allows me to get my waterborne avian friends linear....)

I might have to refabricate a cover as well as a tank, the existing setup just doesent lend itself to easy modding.....but it will be interesting to work around all the little niggles!

So far, I still haven't had a chance to sort out the pump as yet... still running purely on splash lube with hollow dipper... it hasn't seized again, so I reckon after about 40 hrs or so this week alone, it proves proof positive as to a splash lube only system...

Anyways, time to hit the sheets, lets see what the sandman brings this eve...

keep it spinning....
cheers
Ed

PS... last night, dreamland gave me an idea to make a rotor for a fuge.... section and re-weld one of those disposable gas bottles you pick up on the scrapheaps ex the refrigeration boys.... for the outer housing, an old ali pressure cooker....
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on November 12, 2016, 04:33:29 AM
I would have also questioned the pulsing being a pressurisation and a vaccum effectively.
I know the sump has breathers but I also know the principle is one of balance and wondered how that would upset things. I would seem to me the back and forth would effectively " Milk" the resiviour.  I'd also wonder about hot and cold. If the bottle got any air in it the oil would likely get pushed out as it expanded. It may suck it up again as it cooled as well so how that would effect things I'm not sure.

I'm not familiar with the setup on the pumped engines given mine is splash only but I have thought more of increasing the sump capacity buy going through the drain hole and running a pipe to a much bigger resiviour.  It would level out and not top up but it would take a lot of oil loss to actually drop the level any amount.
I like big Sumps, the engine on ly truck is 4.2 Capacity with an 12L sump when you change the filterS.  These engines go 600K km as a matter of course.

If the sump was large capacity it would also give more clean oil to work and cool with not that the latter should be a problem.

You must have ESP mentioning Fuges ED!
I was looking them up during the week for someone that asked me about them. I was looking at the little turbine Type which is manufactured a couple of suburbs from me and known round the world.
Last one I bought for a mate to spin Biodiesel was a tad over $500 for the CF only. Now they are nearly $1500! Of course for that type you have to have a motor and pump and all the other crap.
The guy asked why I hadn't gone to a fuge. There are a few reasons having played with them but a big one now would be cost.  My setup is about $300 to build from scratch.  I have spun my oil a few times and what comes out is no where near worth worrying about.  I'd probably go though an extra filter every 5 years but Given I change them pre emptively anyway before they block every 6 months, hardly a worry.

I tried building the bowl type with a mate years ago in various configs. Tricky buggers. They look easy but...... You'll definitely need something like a wheel balancer or something accurate to get them tuned. We tried a few methods without much luck.They have to be near perfect because even imperceptible Vibrations make the oil uneven and then the things just go nuts from there.
One we tried was a washing machine.  Do you know how terrifying  a freaking washing machine can be when it has about 30 l of oil in it then goes out of balance?  It's like a greasy bomb going off.  Luckily as we ran away, the thing jumped so much it tore it's own power cord in half we had carefully secured out the way and came to a stop in a shower of sparks and grease.
Our biggest mistake was not capturing it on camera and making a fortune out of a YT viral vid!

Another thing we toyed with the idea of was making something out of a torque converter bowl. Not having a lathe was a drawback.  I also wanted to get out the burners and cast up a great lump of aluminium ( or Aloooominum for the US readers)  and have my brother in law turn that up into a bowl for me but he refused on the grounds of it being too much time and effort.

I'm pretty happy with my filter/ bubble setup now. I'll get serious about oil collection now the weather is warming up and people are going out and start salting away a few thousand litres for the winter.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselspanner on November 12, 2016, 07:15:43 AM
Hi All

Having changed to TRB's on my 6/1 I wondered about doing away with the oil pump, as stated it's now reduced to moving oil from one level to another and pushing it through the filter, something Listers never had anyway..

Rather than 'fight the crankcase pulsing I wondered about using it to work an external 'diaphragm' pump, a bit like the Briggs and Stratton lawnmower carb.

It'll have one more moving part than a 'Gerbill' bottle, and a couple of reed valves, sure, but as long as the piston is going up and down it'll be pumping.

Answers on  a postcard............

Cheers Stef

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: vdubnut62 on November 12, 2016, 02:41:42 PM
I must be dumber than a stump. Somebody please edumacate me!!  Uh, why do you need a separate source of  emergency gravity feed oil?  Why not just fill the darn thing up to level and change the mark on the stick?
I always thought the lower sump and resulting eddy acted as a settling pool for crap?

Dumber than a Rock in Tennessee.
Ron.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: BruceM on November 12, 2016, 07:37:37 PM
Stef, if you abandon the oil pump, I suggest just adding a gravity flow bypass filter under the breather door. Aka "sock in a box". It works and is a good use for old cotton socks and underwear.  My Listeroid, pumpless 6/1 setup is entirely gravity, thermosiphon, and exhaust induced draft through the radiator.


Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselspanner on November 12, 2016, 10:27:10 PM
Good point Bruce,

I'm gainfully employed at the moment, and then the Ski season is here (Yipee!), we a run a B&B in the Pyrenees, so I'll have little play time for the foreseeable, once I get things under way I'll post up.

Cheers Stef

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 14, 2016, 11:38:14 AM
Hi Guys,

Quite a few replies to get through, so at the risk of sounding abrupt and unmannerly (Which I am anyway, so no surprises there...) I will just jot them down in point form...

Glort: Pulsing will be a problem, but I think I can balance it out effectively by keeping the dip tube to a fairly low level, about the minimum level in the sump should do it. As to the hot/cold effect on contained air, I will not be mounting it against the crank, so heat transfer should be kept to only a few degrees above ambient (Assuming the exhaust isn't too close either...

Fuges - I have been looking at the cost (from an efficiency POV) of heating the fuel to remove water - time as well... Also, once done, it has to be filtered to remove solids and contaminants, more time cost and handling too... I am hoping that a fuge will speed up the handling and reduce the overheads. I have been doing a fair bit of reading on shipboard fuel handling, where they have similar problems with fuel, and pretty much every large system has one or more fuges to keep things together efficiently, besides, on pretty much all, there is also inclusion of mechanical filtering to sort the juice on the final run to the engines..... (My thinking here is that if its good enough for them, I should copy their processes...nuff said!)

Increasing the sump capacity - This is directly related to the surface area of the sump/apron - to keep level variances to a minimum, you would need a fairly large but "short" container as a remote sump - I don't, in my setup want to sacrifice the space for it.... (Think pump not working scenario...)

Torque converters make good fuges, plenty on that around, I just haven't been able to locate one at a reasonable price yet....ie free!

Stef: A diaphragm pump might work quite well, just a point to consider though - the CC breather valve causes a fair average low pressure in the sump, as rings and seals wear, more blow bye... The vacuum pump would have to "self-center" on the range of vacuum at a particular time.... Might become difficult... But worth a try I reckon... (You can get small vacuum driven fuel pumps for model 2 stroke engines - "Perry Pumps" - and if they work on those small 2 strokes (.3 cu in) then a Lister should be ok!!)

Ron: I have had, previously, with the gunk I run for fuel, where an oil control ring (or 2) jams up and the beast starts smoking... For a short run (3 hours or less) this is not a problem.... Oil level will drop by up to 1/2" over this period. When you run on a 10 to 15hr stretch, the oil will drop by 1/2 " and start exposing the weir notch, then it drops quite rapidly as the apron has a much smaller surface area than the sump overall... if, under these conditions, the pump fails (as it did on mine), the oil in the apron is worth nothing.... With a pump working fine, there is more than enough oil to supply the top sump, even for an extended run. The auto top up will allow me to see if oil has been used ex reserve while the beast is running, allow oil to be topped off while running too....

Now, on to other matters:

This weekend I got a chance to spend a bit of quality time with TM2 - I attacked the CC inner with an industrial grade needle descaler, compressed air chisel and fettled and carved my way through copious layers of sand/slag and crap - All in all around 2 cupfuls of it. I did go a bit OCD on it, but this time I am looking at doing all the prep and mods to see what the overall difference in running will be like. I pulled the crankshaft out (obviously) and gave that a good looking at with a file on the sharp corners and a polishing wheel on the journal. This is also a TRB unit, so no attention was needed there, just a quick check of condition, and all put back in. (Sounds simple and quick....It was.... It only took about 2hrs of polishing to get a decent big end finish going...) I reassembled the crank/CBW/conrod assembly while it was out and checked the status of the rotating/reciprocating masses while I was at it...

The crank/conrod assembly is around 1080g under balanced (rotational mass), the small end mass is 1000g (reciprocating) and the piston/rings/circlips and gudgeon weigh in at 2350g together(reciprocating). TM1 was not too far different if I remember correctly, I will look back in this thread and see what he was when I get a chance....

Once all that was done, I slotted the crank back in and checked the preload on the TRB's, All seems fine with no play and no deflection of the crank as the bearing housings get tightened up. Camshaft and tappets are installed and timed, end play on the camshaft has been taken out too...

Next job is the pump, filter and standpipe install, the thrower ring has been trued up in the interim. (While I was at it, I also opened up the lube gallery in the crank to 8.5mm and made sure it was well flushed and clean)...

Right.... Enough rambling....

Keep it spinning!!

Cheers
Ed

Edit: Right, Oil pump installed, oil filter installed, oil pipes in, oil pipes aimed at all the right bits, hollow dipper installed (Opened the thread in the conrod end cap up to 3/8NF - this allows for a somewhat more substantial hollow dipper), conrod installed.....oil lock ensued!! ....  Damn....I mic'd the big end and did a hand polish to within bugger all of out of round yesterday.... Did a trial setup and torque (Outside of the crankcase) using some VERY thin oil I had lying around....Worked a charm....Installed the conrod this arvie and used the 40W oil-in-a-squirt-can assembly oil....and, yep, you guessed it....Locked up solid!! To check if it wasn't something silly-bugger I did, I pulled the rod, washed it, used 10W thinned to about 5W, all was well.... blew a bit of air and 40W into the lube holes and got about 2 turns out of the crank before it locked up again.... Loosen cap, install thinnest foil shim I could make/had on hand...torque down ....Smile!!....All is butter and roses again!!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselspanner on November 15, 2016, 07:04:48 AM
Ed,

Here's the boy for you....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ALFA-LAVAL-MAB-103-FUEL-SEPARATOR-/131988242862?hash=item1ebb1cc1ae:g:RLEAAOSwHMJYEbsS


Perhaps a little pricey for a start up tho!

The boat I'm on at the moment has one of these, they don't miss the odd jubilee clip, but the Alfa might be noticed.

Cheers
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 15, 2016, 08:24:20 AM
Hey DS....

Green with envy..... Cardinal sin in progress.... Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's Fuge!!

Lol
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 15, 2016, 11:18:02 AM
Hey Guys,

Right, so here's a question.... With TM2 not a million years away from being built up, the shape, location and chassis design of the genset must be decided...

Has anybody got any experience with, or seen running, a Lister CS type genset with the alternator in line with the crank - ie an "inline" type setup (either close coupled, loose coupled or belt driven)?

Reason: I have a basement storeroom which would make a very nice gen shed - it is close to utility power switch over equipment, is out of the way, is secure, is in pretty much all requirements ideal for a gen housing.... One problem - Width!!

The room is around 2-3m long, but the access doorway is only about 750mm wide and the room another 2-400mm wider than the doorway.... It is more of a passage that goes nowhere rather than a room... I could just fit the gen through the doorway if I sent it to a slimming salon, but starting and access would be impossible.....

I am considering mounting TM2 lengthwise on a frame, with flywheel and starting kit facing the end of the frame. The genhead and drive would be on the far side of the engine...

My main concern is the torsional torque pulses on the frame when it is in a lengthwise configuration, bounce and dance as the torque will be acting on the narrower section of the chassis - Bear in mind, this will be another "wheeled or skid sled" type unit, it would have to be slid out of the gen house for maintenance, so no heavy cement block will help here....

Keep it thumping...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on November 15, 2016, 03:26:46 PM

I have a couple of car alternators bolted on a couple of brackets on mine on the engine itself.  They sit either side of the head.

Now obviously the alt you have is going to be a lot bigger but I can't see why that could also not have a frame work made and bolt direct to the engine.  I'm not sure what the bolt holes on mine were for but they were either side of the barrel under the ports on one side and where the COV would be on the other.
You could use those extended thread nuts/ sockets on the head studs and make them your main mounting point and then brace off the inlet and outlet flanges, where the fuel filter mounts and probably other places to to spread and steady the load.  With the alt up on top of the engine it would still be the same forces as having it mounted down and to the side and your footprint of the whole setup would be no larger than that of the engine itself.  maybe the extra weight of the alt would help in stopping it jumping but if it's remotely like mine, you'd have to park a tall building on the bastard to stop it hopping around.

This is the type of thing I mean only put the alt up high over the head or maybe on the COV side alongside the head more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2re80yF4&t=52s

Along the lines of what you are thinking with an inline frame, could you not put brackets/ extensions on the engine and actually secure it to the walls of the passage way itself with rubber mountings  or even use wire rope so the thing is held centred and takes some of the load off the base mountings.  You may be able to just bolt or pin the mounts so when you want to roll it out you just undo them and it comes away?
If your basement is wooden you may have a vibration problem, if it's cement, you might be OK.

Are you thinking to direct drive the thing would some jaw couplings? If so, wouldn't the speed be a problem? I would think you'd have to gear the alt with pulleys to get the right gen head speed.

I think if the alt was mounted on the engine opposite the thrust side, or the opposite way it wants to throw, that may help with the power torsion as well by offsetting the weight.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 16, 2016, 11:18:51 AM
Hey Glort,

I have a couple of "interesting" problems using the location I want.... Its quite low, not really enough space for the overhead alts, narrow, but long... All cement/concrete - About the only surplus space will be at the end of the genset to install a snatch block on the wall to winch it into position... I might even have to mount the radiator externally to the door, using a "dogs' leg" shape bracket (to get a bit more height to thermosyphon), integral to the chassis itself, so the whole mess can be slid out for servicing(Probably put down some 3" channel on the floor, open side up to act as rails, but don't know yet)....

Actual drive to the alternator will probably be double v belts, with the alternator shaft probably below the crankshaft and in line with it, with the alternator nestling partway below the main channel chassis top, maybe even having the mounting plate or base of the alternator level with the bottom of the surrounding channel - I want to keep the CG as low as possible, as the door to this cellar exits into a courtyard with a bit of a slope.... Its definitely going to be a bit of a "juggle around" with some heavy sections of channel to see what the jigsaw puzzle will look like when finished!! (Officially known as "Proof of Concept" in lah di dah terms!!)

The alt itself is a hefty beast for a lister, it rates in at 6.5KW constant, probably capable of about 20KW surge, judging by the brushes and windings and weighs close to around 80 to 100Kg if I remember my muscle aches after moving it around...(Probably actually 50Kg or so, I was quite tired that day...Lol)

BTW - Yesterday I got round to putting in the base gaskets, cyl hold down rods/studs, piston, rings and cylinder... Made up a couple of spacers and clamps to torque the mess down without the head so I can check squish and levels... While I am at it, I am going to prep, balance and install the IP side flywheel (Probably the biggest of the 3 sizes of flywheels I have) - That way I can mark it out with TDC/degree markings and get that mess together...I see a whole lot of gib key fitting in my immediate future!!

Just got a bee in my bonnet and nipped down to the cellar entrance - It measures about 880 Wide (Of which about 800 is usable at ground level) and 1400mm high - It does open up a bit on the width when you get past the entrance, but not much! Currently, if I look at TM1, his width is around 780mm (If he were oriented with crank direction lengthwise) and his height is about 1400 mm excluding the radiator and stand which tops out at 2000mm - This includes all the crap directly fitted to him, manifolds, air cleaner, exhaust etc. I could very likely take off easily 200 mm off his height by removing his wheels and changing the sub crankcase exhaust layout slightly... This is looking more and more feasible... (Cramped maybe, but feasible!!)

Right - here's one for the greater brained professors out there: With a 3:1 pulley ratio, turning 1500/500rpm respectively, what would the the recommended pulley diameters be, to transfer 6Kw when using v-belt widths(across the back) of 12.7mm, 2 belts in sheave? (With minimal slip of course!!)

Keep it spinning!!

Cheers
Ed

PS: Been keeping an eye on TM1's blow bye since the seize (Pump still not done yet...) and it seems like the compression rings might be either a)bedding in again, or b) becoming "unstuck" as the blowing seems to be becoming less and less with each run.... Who knows? (Maybe its the "Swan Song" before he goes totally legs up!!)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 17, 2016, 08:18:16 AM
Hey Guys,

Managed to spend a couple of hours worth of "quality time" with TM2.

I have done a bit of poking around on the IP side crankshaft and manged to fit 2xFlywheels to that side, using gib keys(Would be much easier and more compact with taper bushes, but lets stick to hand tooling on this). With about 1mm clearance to the oil seal, the largest flywheel is fitted. The gib key has been adapted to suit, as the crankshaft keyway ends just inboard of the spoke area of the flywheel when it is in place. I have had to step the head of the gib key as well, leaving about 1/8" above the keyway so the second flywheel keys on to it and butts up against its head, thus acting as a retainer as well. The outboard flywheel leaves about 20mm or thereabouts (havent measured it) of crankshaft sticking out to allow the fitting of the outer gib key. (This is a bit like playing mechanical tetris....) Both keys have been file fitted to the flywheels and shafts - the inner leaves about 1/4" of travel once tight and the outer leaves about the same. When the outer key is fully fitted, it is flush with the end of the crankshaft... This does "complicate" manual starting a bit, but I do have a plan in mind...(Involving a big hand drill, a stepped and tapped hole in the end of the crankshaft, a lathe and an extension to fit the starter handle...Which will also act as a gib key retainer for the outboard key too!!)

For a big lump of cast iron, with PLENTY of space on the crankshafts to hang things, its starting to get a little "crowded". So much so, in fact, that the rim of the inner flywheel is almost over the hinge bolt for the governor IP linkage....

Anybody want a pic or two? If so, drop a reply and I will take a few and post them...

Keep on cramming....

Cheers
Ed

Edit: Just remembered... While fitting and filing the gib keys, I came across a quite handy way to pull them out if you have enough clearance.... Use a largish open ended spanner over the head of the key at 90 degrees to it and use the back of the open end as a "camming surface" against the flywheel boss face, packing the face out as you extract the key. While I was test fitting keys yesterday, I got a tad over-zealous a few times (and seated them to full fit) - To my surprise, the spanner trick pulled them out with minimal fuss!! (Yep, you gotta push quite hard, but they pulled out the keys!!)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 19, 2016, 10:46:18 PM
Hey girls...

Here's some pics of what I have been up to...

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 Double Flywheel Setup 20161119/ (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 Double Flywheel Setup 20161119/)

I will give more info during the week.... In the meantime, comments welcome!

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on November 20, 2016, 12:44:29 AM

I know, I know, I got it!
You start the thing running then feed Miscreants into the ends of those flywheels and put what comes out on the compost pile to put on the garden later.  You can do 2 Miscreants at a time using both ends. Now that's efficiency!
Do I win the prize for guessing correctly??

Looks like a real beast Ed!  Say goodbye to Lister flicker. Should run like a turbine once you balance the thing.

Hopefully you can put up a vid of the thing running when it's all done.
 
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 20, 2016, 08:28:46 AM
Hey Glort,

All our life forms are carbon based.... Thats where oil comes from.... I might be able to speed up the animal/vegetable/oil/coal/lignite cycle habit and just go straight to using miscreants!

Lol

Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 21, 2016, 10:57:23 AM
Hey Guys,

More info on the "Walking Effluent Liquidizing system".....

All four wheels are now balanced, the balance weights at outermost web were in the region of: 0g,170g,85g,155g each.... They were at "random positions" relative to each other... Only one early style wheel was correctly balanced. (The later wheels show a definite drop in casting quality and workmanship.)

I have also installed 2x600g weights as close as I can to crank radius, on the inner flywheels. The rotary imbalance was around 10850g under balanced as per our little kitchen scale that somehow, conveniently, turned up in the oil spattered workshop, just when I needed it.... (Theses women must be more careful with kitchen appliances...Good grief, leaving a kitchen scale in the workshop....What next? ... Good thing I found it and tested it.....)

I have installed the flywheels in their final positions, this entailed making a 100mm shaft extension on the IP side to cater for crank starting (there are a few pics of it in the link I sent earlier.). While I was at it, I made and installed a gib key retainer for the other side as well. The extension and the retainer are cutoffs from the wrecked crankshaft of TM1 - Nothing, or very little, goes to waste around here if I can help it!!

TM2 now weighs in at around 700kg I would guess, next task is to re-site him to the larger gantry I put up earlier in the year. this will give me a little more peace of mind when I start doing the upper areas and final assembly - I will be able to move him around comfortably without taking bits on and off...

Keep it spinning....

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 24, 2016, 01:21:56 PM
Hey Guys...

Another minor update...

The wheels are locked in place, 2-up on each side, the timing marks have been measured and marked out as well... I have thinned the IP banjo bolt head and left a small point on the center, this lines up with my new markings for timing the beast when I get it up and going. I have made a silly little mod to the IP pump rack, tapped a 5mm hole in the RHS to fit a spring return/rack limiter - This I will design on the fly and install a bit later when I get a chance... (ie I am still "considering the options")

The return spring on the rack will be a small spring, pulling the rack closed, just enough to overcome the gravity of the attached links, should a clevis decide to de-bus... It will also put the entire governor linkage system under a very mild closing tension - this will effectively negate any "slop" in the linkage system.... In my opinion, a far better way than tightening up all hinge points to aerospace tolerances (which will bind as soon as any dirt enters the equation....)

Pics here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods)  (You will have to scratch thru the pics, I will put them all into their correct categories and folders at a later stage....)

I have also trial fitted and measured a few things in the cylinder upper department - The Liner protrusion is around 6 thou, the piston crown TDC to top of liner measured around .... oops, lost it... (I did measure it.... and it was lower than the liner), which is all I need to know at this stage until I do the squish setup!

I did wind the beast over a few times to see how the compression is looking and how it will fare with starting on the double flywheel setup... With the CC Plug only finger tight, no injector line connected, winding it up and dropping the de-compressor resulted in a mild combustion event from the little bit of residual assembly oil in the top end... Happiness is!!

Right, time to reinstall the IP and start thinking about the rack limiter/spring return.....

Keep it puffing...

Cheers
Ed

Edit: Just slapped the IP back on the beast.... Similar problems to TM1 when I was setting him up.... The IP rack only opens up to about 1/2 or 3/4 way under governor control... looks like I am in for a bit of flyweight reshaping in the immediate future....... I am hesitant to move/shim the camshaft in or out, the gears et al are in perfect alignment as he now stands.... Strictly speaking, I could leave the IP max opening where it is... For a 10mm element, I seldom, if ever use full rack for power...but...If I reduce to a 8 or even 6mm element, he will need all the rack I can give him!!
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 25, 2016, 07:41:11 AM
Hey Guys,

Re-shaped the governor flyweights... One downside of dual flywheels.... Twice the work to remove them!!

It all went smoothly, there is now much more rack travel, it comes to within about 1/8" of full rack - I would like a bit more, but to do that I would have to probably move the camshaft a bit towards the IP, of this I am hesitant, as it will mean I would have to do a whole lot of in and out to keep the timing gears et al in 100% mesh... Lets see how he does like he is!!

Interestingly, the governor assembly as a whole was taken out and washed in solvent to remove dirt and casting debris a while back...When I took it apart, clean though it was, I felt gritty afterwards.... On closer inspection, the weights were coated with sand on their inner surfaces, not a lot, but enough to feel powdery once they had been handled.... They would have issued a slow release of grit into the system over a long period - Perfect for running in out bearing surfaces.... A quick trip over a rotary wire brush after carving them up and a bath in the parts sprayer was in order.... Dodged a bullet on this one.... Something to possibly keep in mind!! (Reminds me of the saying I heard a while back: "Fear not the bullet with your name on.... Be concerned with the grenade addressed: To Whom it May Concern!!")

Overall, comparing the amount of grit in TM1 to TM2, they are worlds apart.... TM1 had little if any, TM2 probably a few pounds removed by now!! Same manufacturer, same model, same supplier.... Consistently inconsistent!!

Keep it crunching....

Cheers
Ed

PS - Have I bored you all to tears as yet? Or should I keep on trying to?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on November 25, 2016, 08:26:20 AM

It just continues to amaze me and make me wonder how in the Fk these things give any decent service in the 3rd world where they are at home and most used.
I can't see your typical Indian farmer going to the trouble us westerners do even if they had the resources so many of us take for granted.
It just defies my imagination how in the hell they can get any decent service out the things with all the problems they are found to have from the factory.

Surely these things can't last long with gut fulls of sand not to mention everything else and probably being given used engine oil from a vehicle or clean oil from the start and no doubt never changed only topped up. Even if the oil was changed weekly, can't see it making much difference to the load of inherent faults these things have.

Either these things are dying a quick death on farms and in factory's or we westerners are going to far too much trouble.

No Ed, not bored, just enjoying your regular updates. 
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 25, 2016, 09:01:05 AM
Hi Glort,

I have just been sitting back and thinking.... (A dangerous thing, it usually gets me into sh!t later!!!)

Maybe, just maybe, their production is not really consistently inconsistent... There is a VERY strong possibility that based on all the problems we on the forum have all had with sand in the innards to various degrees, that ALL if the India made engines have this problem.... There is also a very strong chance, that those who do not have the problems actually do have them, just unnoticed...

I take for example my own circumstance - TM1 was pressed into service almost immediately. He was given a cursory inspection and check over, no loose crap to any large degree was left lying around in his sump that I saw. He did have a bearing failure, butr that was directly attributable to a lube oil pipe sawing itself up and spitting itself straight into the big end, so not sand...

Now, TM1 has around 3k or so hours on him, the bulk of the work and pissing around has been on his upper section and IP side... Little done on the lower with the exception of the addition of an oil filter... When TM2 is in operation, I think I am going to do a full tear down of TM1 and go over him with a fine tooth comb (Hammer, chisel, descaler included...)

I am actually of the opinion, no, I am almost certain, that the sand I didn't see, or find previously, is actually there, just hidden away and inert...(at the moment)...

One would expect, after about a k hrs of running and more, that the crap would continue to show in the oil...Something I haven't seen when changing it.

I think that Mr Lister had a really good think about these beasts when he put pen to paper... I also think that his rather clever designs are of the ilk that they allow for the crap to settle out rather than recirculate as it would do in a more modern design... This allows for a way greater tolerance than we come to expect from modern manufacturing methods..

ie - Do you think it would be possible to run a modern engine after a top end seize? If so, for how long? Well let me give an indication: I have had lube mishaps on one car and 2 bikes in the past lots of years - one instance allowed me to get home before it died completely, the other 2 were totaled... Now, TM1 had an upper seize a couple of weeks back...Solid! I eventually got him turning over (I wont recount how, you guys would evict me from the forum) and after topping up the oil, he is still running...About 60hrs run time since the seize....Loads haven't changed...Oil hasn't been changed either....Interesting!!

It is certainly going to be entertaining to strip him down in the future for a rebuild.... I think that a lot of our clean out work is a little "over the top" for what is required... Granted, a clean engine internally is a great thing to have, it might live a little longer, who knows..... But.... Enough said!! (Let the flaming begin!!)

Keep on flaming....

Cheers
Ed

Edit: Just did a valve/rocker alignment job - Also trimmed the rocker shaft by 1/8" each side and made up some different shaft springs... Cut and thinned the heads of the rocker fixing shaft bolts down by 1/8" each as well... Made a heavy duty lifting bracket that can now be bolted onto the diagonal bolts on the head for lifting him, without having to piss around and take the rockers off each time to do it too.... Much easier and quicker. (Yes, I know the lifting eye looks a little flimsy, but my reckoning is that if it was ok on a 2 metric ton rated chain block, 800 to 1000kg of TM2 shouldn't be a problem!)...Pics here:  http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods) (Towards the end of the list, under today's date.)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselgman on November 25, 2016, 03:29:29 PM
I will always remember inspecting a 6/1 I once saw operating in India. It was sitting on the ground belt driving a large cement mixer drum in a huge pile of dirt and sand debris. No air filter, dirty looking fuel from a plastic bottle, apparently no concern over the mountain of crap it was almost buried in. Barefoot people scurrying around filling and dumping the mortar from the machine. The local guys I was traveling with said "who cares ?, they always keep working!" Further to this anecdote, I have heard from a number of credible sources that the local Indian markets use the worst stuff from their production in country and export their best quality.

So, in a nutshell, many of us have been experienced and trained on modern engine technology with pressure-fed oil systems and fairly tight parts tolerances, high levels of quality control required... this background and expectation does not necessarily translate accurately across the board to the antique engine designs and their design tolerances.

Give me a good original Dursley machine any day, take good care of it, and I will expect it to be around for my great grandchildren or beyond. But if I could not afford that luxury, then a close copy would still probably outlast me in this world.

dieselgman
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: Hugh Conway on November 25, 2016, 09:36:27 PM

Maybe these machines are a lot tougher and forgiving than we Westerners imagine.
Check out this youtube..........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY4hgSj3bAw
A listeroid, not an original Dursley.
Operating in a dusty environment
Air filter.........none
Exhaust pipe.......none
Cooling system......none
Note the valve gear cover securely bolted down, probably never lubed under there.

Could the inclusion of intake grit and casting sand in the crankcase be a feature, not a bug? The grit/sand might open up operating clearances so it won't otherwise seize up..........well, perhaps.......

Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: Tom on November 25, 2016, 10:45:02 PM
Perhaps it's burning the plant fiber too and what doesn't burn seals the valves and rings. It does appear to be using an evaporative cooling 'system'.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: gusbratz on November 26, 2016, 03:49:28 AM
he says down in the comments that it only runs for a few minutes to chop enough feed for the cow and buffalo.  so they didn't bother with a cooling system.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: vdubnut62 on November 26, 2016, 05:23:24 AM
I bought a tecumseh powered air cooled mower from a lady at a yard sale for $2 US. She said it was run dry of oil and locked up. I gave it a nudge and it moved so I went home and changed oil in it a couple times and still couldn't get all the glitter out of the crankcase. I poured a quart and a half of gas in it shook it rolled it over and over drained it, and repeated with diesel a couple times. I refilled that thing with some kind of parasynthetic wally world oil and mowed and trimmed with it for years. Also the Wife could start it. I finally hit something with it a couple years ago and bent the crank. No one knows how to straighten a lawnmower crank anymore so I figured I had gotten my money's worth and recycled it.
Ron.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on November 26, 2016, 07:54:12 AM

You may be right about the tolerance of the Design Ed.
When one think about it, a Good deep sump with a baffle that allows the bottom area to be undisturbed should trap the majority od debris be it manufacturing sand or metal shavings.

I'm real big on premature oil changes on new engines. 
I have had a couple of new Bikes and changed  the oil on one at 500 Km and the other at 250.  The amount of metal that came out of both of them ( and the 2nd had a spin on type filter) Justified this completely in my mind.  You could see the metal filings in the bottom of the purposefully clean container I started with like you were panning for gold.  Did the same thing with the  GF now wifes new car.  I think that was about 350KM when I got to it and again more metal filings than you would ever hope to see.

I don't know where it comes from. All the frictional surfaces should be ground and smooth.  Not like you are machining them in situ.... or is that in fact what happens to a greater degree than I anyway would credit?

Hugh's comments remind me of the design principals of the famous Russian Mikhal Kalishnakov and the idea behind the AK.
Forget about precision machining and tight tolerances, open everything up so you can throw a handfull of sand and whatever in the rifle so it has the slop not to bind up and just keep going.
Maybe the Indian Lister makers are copying that proven engineering philosophy ?

I too have been given seized Mowers and a lot of 2 strokes on blowers and edgers etc.  fill them with oil, let them sit a few days, free them up by brute force and they run for damn years! And as much as it will upset the patriotic, Briggs and stratton motors are the greatest pieces of crap engineering I have ever seen.  Not to say they don't run, they are just horrifically built! I worked with a guy in a mower shop for a while. Just for shits and giggles to prove a point, he took a brand new mower off the floor of the shop and tore the engine down and mic'ed it up. He showed me that that there wasn't a thing on the engine that was in serviceable tolerance.
The piston was undersized, the ring gap on the never fired engine was out.... you name it.  He said he had done this when he was a mechanic in a car dealership and it was a given every piston would be a different size but they were all usually within spec rather than " worn out" before they even fired.

I still wonder what is going on with Roids. My own was filled with sand although perhaps like your Ed, was hidden by a layer of paint and may have ( or may not) stayed there had I not prodded and scratched around with a screwdriver. being the precise engineer I am, I didn't strip the engine down and get in there with a scaler, I cleaned it out with an industrial water blaster.  And didn't I get some out too!
I then blasted the roller bearings ( just to get the grit in there good and well)  but when hit with WD spray and then dried and oiled, I could not hear a thing so called it good. Never seen any grit in the bottom of the sump nor much metal filings so maybe it worked after all.

Still to me seems amazing that we go to so much effort to fix significant mistakes that due to physics alone make these things a wonder they last at all. without such remedy. I don't think what we do is over the top, what they get away with is akin to an engineering miracle. 
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 28, 2016, 07:52:29 AM
Hey Guys,

Agreed pretty much on all counts.... The reason for all the "filings and crap" - Mass production!! Gone are the days of hand fitting all the components and file fitting to minimum spec - It takes just too much time. Slap it together, allow for wear in with a bit of looseness or tightness where you can, start it up and pray the filters and settling areas do their jobs!!

Considering the amount of time I have spent on TM2 now, had this been done by the supplier, excluding the mods of course, I would expect to pay in the region of 2x what I have... Unfortunately, the world we live in now, is price driven... Pay as little as possible to get as much as possible (as the saying goes: Low price, High Quality, Choose one!)... With the low loading specs of these engines, the makers can get away with murder and still have a reasonably serviceable unit.... But enough of that can of worms....

This weekend I managed to finish the IP mods, I put in a rack limiter with an integral return spring. The limit can be adjusted to allow for maximum power output. The return spring has two uses - First, it takes out all of the "slop" in the linkages, this gives better governor control. Second, the spring is only just strong enough to overcome gravity iro the weight of the linkages themselves... Should a pin or linkage detach, the rack will pull closed automatically, no overspeed, just shutdown... I also moved the adjuster and made an adjustable end attached to the crankcase, to test different springs is now dead easy.... Alongside of the pump, I cut up the banjo fitting and silver soldered an integral t-piece, this allows for dual fuel setup right at the IP itself, little to no delay in switching fuels now....(Of course there will be a delay, but only a few seconds as it does not need to purge long feed pipes now..)... This was not so much a mod as a repair - The barb fitting where it was crimped into the SS braided hose had a crack/hole in it - the bore of the barb was not concentric - it was out by about 2mm and was of tinfoil thickness down one side....

Aaah yes.... The workshop cat (Kitten) is now officially on site and in training.... Only to be scooped up and abducted by the kids and promptly moved indoors....

I have also started doing the "Auto Oil Fill" mods... The fitting has been set into the small CC cover in place of the dipstick. Unfortunately, it will obscure the governor adjuster a little, but I think I will get away with it.... The pics show a piece of 1/2" copper line in place, this is for reference only, it will be steel line on the actual version. Pics here:  http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods) (Towards the end of the list, under yesterday's date.)

Also managed to scare the sh!t out of the laddie that was fixing his car here on the weekend.... I picked up TM2 on the 400kg gantry... With full flywheel compliment... The gantry only creaked a bit and settled about 3" or so.... He took one look and reckoned it was far better to be outside the workshop at that point... 800Kg is a bit much....

Keep on scaring...

Cheers
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 29, 2016, 09:51:48 AM
Hey Guys,

Here's an interesting one... Just in Passing... Ordered some 10mm IP pump elements from India on the 15th September... Just been collected from the post office, snail mail... Around 10weeks in postage, Cost of USD45 for 10 elements... ET10L 1/4... Total incoming cost including customs and SWIFT charges levied by our local thieves... USD92... Remember, this was for 10x elements... Now.... Include about 5hrs of correspondence and pissing about.... About break even I reckon... LOL....

I did try and find 11 or 12mm elements, but no luck to fit the 034 pump.... Bugger!

Right, I gonna make my gerbil sum oiler...

Laters...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on November 29, 2016, 02:43:33 PM
Hey Guys,

Gerbils-R-Us Auto-oil-filler-upper is now installed... I cadged it together out of what I had laying around.... Looks like it will work.... The "stop cock" has been modded internally - the rubber seal has been removed, nylon in place - the loose end for the seal has been silver soldered to the spindle and trued up on the lathe, now it doesn't act as a one way valve when the cock is open. The CC fitting has been bored through, the steel pipe goes through it to the bottom of the splash sump - It now needs to be filled with oil and trimmed off to set the oil level for running. The top plug on the tank has an integral dipstick for checking tank level, and this plug now uses an o-ring instead of a taper to make life easier. The top "legs" of the tank are flexible enough to allow for a small (3/4") height adjustment, the final height, once adjusted, is locked into place by the "conex" water fitting on the sump door, which uses a ferrule seal. The legs bolt onto the bottom inlet and exhaust studs. Interestingly, the use of a brass ferrule on a steel pipe(where it enters the crankcase), gives enough clamping to lock the pipe from sliding very effectively, yet, when loosened, allows the steel pipe to slide through once again.....And...yes... It does clear the governor linkages!

Pics here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods) (Towards the end of the list) Under today's date.... Comments welcomed! (Except remarks on the crappy quality of the images....my "new" cell phone aint as good in the camera department as the old one...And that was pretty sh!te to begin with!!)

Keep it oiled...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 01, 2016, 11:40:27 AM
Hey Girls....

I have just finished torquing down the head and checking squish.... FWIW, IP side of the cylinder being oriented South, the four readings were 1.93/1.89/1.92/1.85 mm respectively as per NEWS order... The deck/crank might be a tiny bit out - .08mm or .oh-oh-pi in inches, not too serious I don't think (I didn't check the crown to gudgeon dimensions when I had it apart either)....

The Gerbil-Fillit-Thing is stuck in and bolted up, the bottom of the tube being cut off at 45 degrees to match the dipper trough... It is slowly filling to set depth (about 1/2 way up the dipper) as I type.... I expect the tube to still pick up a bit of air and splash from the dipper, so the oil level should rise a bit when it is running... As to how much, I couldn't tell you, but I have made it fairly adjustable and I will keep an eye on it when TM2 finally pops smoke! (The "real" dipstick is in place on the drain side of the engine, soon to be calibrated too!)

Pics here under today's date:  http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods) (Towards the end of the list)

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed

PS: the dark "cloudiness" in the oil in the center of the sump is shadow, not dirt!!

PPS: Now here's a quick question for you learned gents out there that have a sump/apron style roid... Which do you prefer IRO oil level, the weir notch bottom with the pump keeping the sump supplied, or filling the apron to above the weir notch?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: veggie on December 01, 2016, 02:44:34 PM
EdDee,

I have a question about the top end lubrication.
You obviously do some lengthy runs lasting for hours at a time.
What is your procedure for keeping the rocker shaft and valve guides lubricated.?
In my case, I removed the stock rocker shaft and added the type that has a grease cap which pushes grease into the shaft assembly with each turn of the cap. It offers a bit better system than the stock arrangement, but not much better. That system does nothing for the valve guides, so I still have to oil the recess at the bottom of the valve spring.
I have seen that some people pack a handful of grease around the components. I suspect this works excellent, but I cant bare to pack  a 1/2 pound of grease onto the top of my engine.
Some have even fabricated an upper valve train lube system which takes oil from the sump. An interesting idea.
I am wondering how the top end can be modified so that the valve system does not have to be constantly watched during long runs.
In the "old days" of cotton mills in the UK,  a young boy (apprentice) was employed to walk around all the machinery carrying an oil can and a pail of grease. His job was to keep all rotating parts nicely lubed in oils.

cheers,
Veggie

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 01, 2016, 03:04:59 PM
Hey V-Man!!

I simply lube once a day at startup... TM1 is in a less than favorable environment and I am worried about grease catching a little too much sand and dust... That being said, even oil dampness attracts dust as we all know.

In all the time I have been playing with old thumpers, I have only twice had a problem with seizing on the rocker shaft... I cant remember the circumstances of the first time, but on TM1 I had the inlet rocker bind up for no rhyme or reason... Removed, cleaned up the shaft and bushing, reinstalled and all has been well with it for the last 14 months or so... I suspect there was a bit of sh!t in the bushing from the day it was made...

I regularly run up to 14hr shifts (if I have enough waste oil) and find that little of no attention needs to be paid to the rockers barring a quick squirt every 12hrs or so....

The rest of the time, for short runs, I quick squirt on startup is about as far as I go....

I am tempted to install a drip oiler, but haven't found one at the right price yet (ie free)!!

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 01, 2016, 03:18:29 PM
Hey Guys,

Just did the dual-fuel fittings on the IP... Next to plumb in the injector return line... I am using some old HPA fittings I had lying around, seems to work quite well so far, no gaskets or o-rings needed and they seal up well....

Pics here under today's date:  http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods) (Towards the end of the list)

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 05, 2016, 09:24:53 AM
Hey Guys,

This weekend I made time to glue together a chassis for TM2... Overall footprint is about 1mx2m - Taper channel 160mm wide.... Should be heavy enough to hold him down. Luckily there was enough scrap lying around to re purpose, otherwise this would have cost a bundle... Used 3.2mm hi temperature glue sticks.... Lol

Pics here:  http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods) (Towards the end of the list under today's date)

TM2 is mounted in his correct orientation and position as he now stands. The alternator will be in line with him, but the shaft of the alternator will be above the outboard flywheel and belt driven off the rim. The 3 phase motor in the picture will be below the alternator and driven from it for net metering duties if it works out as planned. At the far end of the frame, in the excess space, I am considering installing a 220L heat store tank. Somewhere in among all of this, I am looking at a belt driven circulation pump and compressor as well....(not to forget a 12v start system as well...) ...  Tetris a' la Lister in progress!!

Comments welcome!!

Keep it spinning....

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on December 05, 2016, 10:08:06 AM

Is this the setup thats going to be put in the small space?
Going to be compact but bloody heavy!  Nice work of course as Usual Ed. Too me a second to work out the 3.2mm glue sticks but I got there eventually. I have a bit of a thing against nuts and bolts. Why use them when you can make something that costs much less and never comes loose. It's easy to undo as well if you ever have the need.  Plasma cutters make it real easy to undo a lot of things! :0)

I like that you are going to add some " Complication" to the setup. Simple and easy is good and well but versatile and efficient need not compromise that if done well.

You are going to convert the 3 phase to a generator I take it? What size is the 3 phase?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 05, 2016, 10:33:48 AM
Hey Glort,

It looks like the "small space" is gonna be just too small.... Bummer.... I am going to be able to fit it, but servicing will be a problem. My initial plan was to put the whole lot on "rails" so it could be slid in and out under winch power to do the pm's and repairs, but unfortunately, due to a small built up retaining wall with a drain sump built in that projects slightly into the mouth of the doorway, access looks like, at this stage, it will be a problem. The overall package size fits the "room" but to install it, I would have to put it in in pieces and assemble it in situ... I have found another nook, little used, that TM2 can fit into... Right next to TM1! I am considering combining the exhaust stacks and power/water/everything is close by as well, so less to do to get it useful! (Sorry, Mr lazy is kicking in....)

Weight, well, lets just not go there... TM2 on his own is about 750 to 850 kg maybe more... was quite interesting getting him from the initial assembly area to his fabrication area - a grand distance of about 10m, but using the gantries and with the amount of machinery and crap I have in the workshop, I ended up with a journey of about 25m of which about half of it was over my D40 Komatsu bulldozer.... A rough guestimate puts the weight of the bits before the chassis is complete at around 1200kg and still a good few bits to go on (that's not even including radiator/pump and 300L of Hot water storage).... I don't think he will be classed as a "portable" unit.....

It will be interesting to see his final layout, I have not actually built an "inline" Lister before... All the ones done previously have been "transverse"....

The 3 phase is a 50A 380V 1440RPM unit... I should be able to push about 15A/Phase on cogen if I can get it together, assuming it isn't stuffed... I still need to check it out properly though....

One additional small complication for the "small room" environment is the addition of the radiator, which I want to thermo-syphon, but also use the cooling exhaust draft from the alternator...(Hence the high mount of the alternator)

Enough rambling.... Let me finish my coffee and go cut some more channel...

Keep on gluing....

Cheers
Ed

PS - I managed to get some wooden welding rods from the local hardware store the other day... Try as I might, even soaked them in salt water, I just couldn't get an arc....
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: vdubnut62 on December 06, 2016, 12:28:39 AM
Just a shot in the dark, but what would a bunch of cotton waste packed into the head/valvetrain area and soaked with oil accomplish? (other than making a mess)
I know a bunch of babbit bearing equipped steam and early gas engines as well as babbit pillow blocks used this method. Just thought I would throw it against the wall and see if it stuck.
  I agree a drip oiler would be the best solution, but them 'lil fellers is a gitting 'spensive!  Just a thought, what about cotton wicks, about 4 of them, crimped into a tube connected to a small reservoir and wicking lube to the rocker shafts and valve guides? That would still leave the pushrods dry, but I don't figure the inverted cup holds a lot of lube anyway.
Ok I am ready to be shot down :D :D so fire at will!
Ron.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 06, 2016, 08:04:55 AM
Hey Ron,

Cotton waste....Not so sure....Too much exposed surface area to draw lube out of... It would work well in a gland box though...

But now, your other suggestion - Wicking lube to the areas that need it - That I Like!! Perhaps a small resevoir on top of the valve cover,with say four discrete little tubes with wicks in going to the top of each rocker pivot and the top of each valve.... The lube would wick its way down each path to the specific point of need.... Mind if I maybe use your idea?

Keep it oiled....

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselspanner on December 06, 2016, 10:53:48 AM
Hi All

A few years back I did a short trip on a Dutch barge, up the English channel, can't remember what the motor was but it was hot bulb ignition.

The guy running it used pipe cleaners to 'wick' the lube oil to various places, might be worth a thought.

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 06, 2016, 11:09:22 AM
Hey Stef,

Nice one!! Easy and "directable" .... Defs gonna do that!!

Cheerz
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on December 06, 2016, 12:08:04 PM
  I agree a drip oiler would be the best solution, but them 'lil fellers is a gitting 'spensive! 

Every single time I see those things for sale I am amazed at the price. Wether on ebay or on a table at an engine show, I look and wonder what the heck is so marvellous or complicated about these things to justify the price??
Then again, I also wonder how the hell an open crank engine can work with just a couple of things things on them wizzing round and not even a closed splash lube sump or oiling system.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 06, 2016, 02:39:47 PM
Hey Guys,

Agreed.... Thinking back, a mate of mine had an oval track speedway bike, no clutch, no gears, open crank with a shroud in front to keep some of the sand out of the engine....Ran on straight methanol with a "total loss" lube system... About 500cc if I remember.... Now to me, that's about the worst you could do to an engine....Anybody remember what make they were? Husquavarna comes to mind, but I dont think it was....

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: 38ac on December 06, 2016, 03:12:34 PM
  I agree a drip oiler would be the best solution, but them 'lil fellers is a gitting 'spensive! 

Every single time I see those things for sale I am amazed at the price. Wether on ebay or on a table at an engine show, I look and wonder what the heck is so marvellous or complicated about these things to justify the price??
Then again, I also wonder how the hell an open crank engine can work with just a couple of things things on them wizzing round and not even a closed splash lube sump or oiling system.


Like crows collecting shiny objects engine men and especially engine dealers gather up drip oilers and pile them in the nest. If things were made square, meaning all needs were met and that was that  there would be a huge pile of them worth only their weight in scrap brass and glass. BUT at any engine show there are tables full of them at high prices few are willing to pay so they all go home in a box only to be hauled out to the next one. I wont pay the going rate and instead buy new ones from McMaster Carr. They are not period correct but I don't care. I am not going to add to the stupidity.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: mikenash on December 06, 2016, 04:56:16 PM
  I agree a drip oiler would be the best solution, but them 'lil fellers is a gitting 'spensive! 

Every single time I see those things for sale I am amazed at the price. Wether on ebay or on a table at an engine show, I look and wonder what the heck is so marvellous or complicated about these things to justify the price??
Then again, I also wonder how the hell an open crank engine can work with just a couple of things things on them wizzing round and not even a closed splash lube sump or oiling system.

Y'know in the motorcycle world there are little chain-oiler reservoir and feed systems "scottoilers" they are here.  Just a reservoir and a capillary tube to take vacuum from your intake so it turns on when the engine turns on etc and an oil flow adjuster. You can set them for a drip an hour or whatever I guess.  Not "period" in any way but no moving parts either.  Cheers


Like crows collecting shiny objects engine men and especially engine dealers gather up drip oilers and pile them in the nest. If things were made square, meaning all needs were met and that was that  there would be a huge pile of them worth only their weight in scrap brass and glass. BUT at any engine show there are tables full of them at high prices few are willing to pay so they all go home in a box only to be hauled out to the next one. I wont pay the going rate and instead buy new ones from McMaster Carr. They are not period correct but I don't care. I am not going to add to the stupidity.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: George A on December 06, 2016, 05:34:03 PM
Check the suppliers on this website: http://www.old-engine.com/index.php

You'll find several vendors offering drip (gravity) oilers at reasonable prices, along with British threaded pipe fittings, etc. I've often thought it wouldn't be too difficult to add a single oiler for the rocker arms, using a tube feed of some sort. Would look kind of "grand" too........
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselspanner on December 06, 2016, 09:47:58 PM
Just looked up pipe cleaners on Ebay, I thought they'd be a thing of the past, like skate boards, I can't believe the amount of different colours (USA readers delete the u as required)

And they're bloody cheap!

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on December 06, 2016, 11:45:38 PM
Hey Guys,

Agreed.... Thinking back, a mate of mine had an oval track speedway bike, no clutch, no gears, open crank with a shroud in front to keep some of the sand out of the engine....Ran on straight methanol with a "total loss" lube system... About 500cc if I remember.... Now to me, that's about the worst you could do to an engine....Anybody remember what make they were? Husquavarna comes to mind, but I dont think it was....

Cheers
Ed

Jawa and Weslake were 2 popular engines in this sport.

I remember going to the City Showground where they used to run. Getting showered in clay and smelling the heady aroma of methanol and castor oil which was what they ran for lube. 
Real hard form of Racing Speedway.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: vdubnut62 on December 07, 2016, 05:23:58 AM
EdDee, please feel free to "wick away" if that is the way that your imagination leads you. :D
Ron.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: mikenash on December 07, 2016, 05:28:11 AM
Yeah, Glort, I will never smell Castrol "R" without remembering going to the Meanee Speedway near Napier as a kid in the late '60s and early '70s and sitting on the corners to enjoy getting showered in clay etc etc.  Legends like world champs like Barry Briggs and Ivan Mauger were just folks who raced there on a Saturday night to my twelve-year-old self
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on December 07, 2016, 03:23:36 PM

Saw Ivan Mauger many times. His arch rival was the local boy, Phil Crump.
I'm not sure they even have speedway here for the bikes now.  They still have the midget cars but I haven't heard of the bikes in as long as I can remember.

I got hold of some Castrol Castor R years ago and used to run it in the 2 stroke lawnmower. Even the elderly lady neighbour said it smelt good and that was with petrol.
Pretty pricey oil the R now.  I got plenty of veg around, I should get some methanol and rejet the mower carb and see how it smells on methanol. :0)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 08, 2016, 08:44:49 AM
Hey Guys,

A small update....

Managed to get the genhead and 3-phase mounted on the sub-frame yesterday, lots of sweat in around 40C weather... Blew the plasma cutter to kingdom come, burnt out an angle grinder, dropped the genhead on my foot, all in all an interesting day!! (Oh yes also tangled up with my hand drill and a 13mm bit went south while slotting the slides for the 3 phase... All in the spirit of fun as they say...)

I still have to do the final placement and welding of the sub to main chassis once all distances and clearances are worked out, but so far it is looking promising, albeit a tad cramped. The genhead is driven directly off the flywheel rim, 600mm dia, the driven pulley will be either 225mm or 250mm diameter (haven't decided yet), so I have allowed just enough clearance for the 250mm to go into place. I am planning on using only a single 13mm belt to drive it at this stage, as there will be only around 3kw max draw on the alt.... A bit small, but with the large diameters I am working with, it should suffice. Should there be a problem, I can fit a double sheave pulley on the alt and away we go... I have also put "extra Long" adjustment track slots for the gen's, this allows a fair range of pulley and belt sizes to be played with in the future, should it be required.

Currently, I am designing on the fly in "compact mode", with minimum belt lengths, maximum pulley diameters - this means that when it all fits and turns, it will be worst case scenario for clearances.

For genhead to 3 phase, I am attempting to use a double sheave setup with pulleys 130/120mm respectively, if it all pans out, I will not have to adjust governor speeds when I go from prime to net meter mode... The ratio is around 10% up on 1500rpm (ie 150rpm) doing it this way, a little high, but I can deepen the grooves on the 130mm if I need to to bring it closer to the 60rpm overspeed for the 3phase to operate in net mode....

Pics here under today's date:  http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods) (Towards the end of the list)

Hopefully, today, I will be able to fit the sub frame to main and get that all finalized.....

I am considering running on a non-radiator setup, pump circulated with a 200L tank - certainly in the beginning - I am also considering using a common hot water/coolant reservoir that is pump circulated - As opposed to a closed coolant system with glycol....Anybody else doing similar? (With of course the mandatory exhaust heatex in tow...)

Keep it spinning....

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on December 08, 2016, 03:24:04 PM

The ratio is around 10% up on 1500rpm (ie 150rpm) doing it this way, a little high, but I can deepen the grooves on the 130mm if I need to to bring it closer to the 60rpm overspeed for the 3phase to operate in net mode....


Have you done much with the 3 phase generator thing before Ed?
I would not put a lot of precision in the 10% thing.
I found a lot varies on the motor, the caps you use and what you are trying to get out of the things.  Driving them harder does get you a lot more power but you have to watch the voltage. I can only take mine to 400V because of the caps I am using but I did blow the snot out of a multimeter when I saw it flash to 1200V before it grenaded itself clean off where it was sitting.  Setup I'm going now is rectifying the AC which gives me 40% more voltage and running that back though a proper solar inverter.

I could tone it down to 240 but then the amps are pretty weak. Changing the caps varies the output at a given RPM.  I over capped and over spun the thing , a lot, when I blew the multimeter. Voltage rise was too fast and Wooshka! Not only did the magic smoke come out but bits of plastic and black stuff and all!

I would allow to go over 10% myself ed and would set up for higher.  10% is where the fun may start, not where the things are really grunting.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 09, 2016, 08:28:40 AM
Hey Glort,

This 3P setup will be for grid tie in, not independent operation. I foresee that I might tie in a phase on the 3 phase to the alternator to do independent stuff... The alt will do the frequency and basic V regulation and the 3 phase would be in an "assisting" role, hence the 10% up on the speed of the 3P vs the Alt... If I find it too much and there is a bit of breakdown of the flux(Too much mag slip) in the 3p I can just drop the revs a bit by machining the drive pulley down a bit (the one on the alt shaft)...

I have played a bit with induction gens, they are sometimes always "tricky" to set up where voltage surge due to variable loads occur, but much easier in the role of tied in rather than stand alone. Stand alone requires a much more touchy setup of L-C network vs load vs revs to get things working, change but a small amount and things get interesting indeed.... I must confess though, I have not "hard belted" an alt to a 3P in a fixed ratio environment before, and am keen to see if they can be made to work in harmony... I don't see why not... This could end up being an easy (and cheap) way to boost say a 5kva to a 10kva unit by adding an induction generator into the mix....

10% up is around the max you could drive an induction generator in assisting mode if I remember correctly, the performance is already starting to fall off at this point, the actual real efficiency is around 4 or 5% up for coupling... To determine it by looking at the motor plate, look at the rated revs for the power. ie 1440rpm in this case - this is then a 2 pole set motor @ 50hz - the 60rpm deficiency is the "slip" required on the rotor to give rated power at shaft - if you work it out, this is a 100-(1440/1500x100)%=4% slip to induce current in the rotor to give grunt at the shaft... To get the same amount of current(or near enough) boost back into a tie in system, you would have to drive the shaft at 4% above 1500RPM ie 1560... But enough said, lets try it and see! What I am actually hoping to achieve, is less electrical load on the gen head as part of the trial... If it doesn't work to my liking, no biggie, I will just run them independently...(or the 3 phase not at all, 4 bolts and a belt and it disappears back into storage!!)

As an aside, have you ever run a 3P motor as a rotary phase converter from 1P mains? I have a couple set up to use where 3 phase polishing machines (crappy bench grinder with buffing wheels) were needed... start the "rotary transformer" with a cap, once spinning, hook up the 3P grinder to the 3 phases on the "converter", and away it goes.... Much cheaper and more reliable than the inverter controllers (if you don't need speed control)... Plus, 3P industrial motors are a dime-a-dozen at the scrappies.... Singles are in way more demand and difficult to get, when you do, you bleed money to cover them... Just bear in mind, you are only getting about 1/3 the rated 3phase power out of the converter this way - so a 15kw 3phase will only give you around 5kw 3phase out to power another device (approximately)...oh, and BTW, you need 220V 3phase motors to make it work with reasonable power output...

Yesterday evening I did the line up of all the pulleys and sub frame for the genhead on TM2 - I gotta work a lot more carefully now that the plasma is down.... no more quick tack, oops, cut move tack... Tack and weld once all lined up only!! I have managed to get the whole shebang together, allowing for dual ratios on the engine/alt coupling, with only the change of the alt pulley - there is enough tension adjustment that I don't have to change belts even - Bonus!! The clearance between the 3P pulley/shaft and the crankshaft necessitated a bit of surgery with an angle grinder, but one stubby 3P motor shaft later, and the conversion from 2 to 1 sheave on the 3P pulley, and all is good to go with enough clearance....Just!! The drive train belt layout is almost an inverted "V" with the crankshaft and 3P at the bottom, almost in line with one another and the genhead shaft above them in the center... Looks quite cute!! I looks like I will be able to drive the water pump from the second sheave (now unused) of the pulley that is on the genhead shaft... an added bonus of the current layout.

Right... Enough rambling....

Keep it spinning

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on December 09, 2016, 10:00:25 AM

Hi Ed,

Yes you did mention grid tie, a couple of times at least, and I completely forgot about that. Nothing wrong with me, apart from stupidity.
Are you going to push to a 3 phase circuit or bring it back to single phase with C2C or something else?

You are spot on with the load variation on a MAG setup. You are either over voltage or collapsing the field with anything more than a lightbulb.
I have played around with putting capacitance on the load itself to compensate. Works better than without but I think your application of Grid tie/ boost is best. Never seen nor heard of anyone do it with a generator and an induction motor at the same time.  You are a real Pioneer Ed!

When setting it up you'll have to use a clamp meter to make sure you have the motor spinning fast enough or the power will be taking a short trip from the gen head to the motor and you'll have nothing left !  :0)

I have done the 3 Phase from single phase with a rotary converter. Was like magic the first time I did it. Also won a bet with the brother in law who said it was not possible because in all the years he had been in engineering and all the times they would have done it if they could, they always had to bring in expensive equipment  or get a single phase motor. Did not believe you could get power from a motor.
Showed him how it worked and he thought I was tricking him. Went one better and did away with the converter motor and showed him how it could be done with caps which is the way I do it now.
Pretty much like C2C in reverse.  I prefer that way because I think it's more efficient and a lot more compact as well.

Also showed the brother in law how you could " Zip start" a 3 phase motor on single phase. I had a pump that had the motor attached to the pump on a coupling.  Wind a cord round the coupling, turn on the motor and quickly pull the cord and off it goes. You only need to get the motor over the dead coil and once it's spinning the inertia carries it over. Yeah, you loose 1/3rd output but where you aren't pulling max power out the motor anyway, not a problem. You are just limited to the amps of the circuit on the single phase line which can easy be overloaded given the power easily achieved with 3 phase motors.

I just fiddled a bit till I got the start and run right and that was it. Just put caps on every motor you want to run on single phase so when you turn them on it's like any other single phase motor.
I love playing with 3 phase stuff. So versatile.  Seems to me a lot of people don't understand power and a lot less understand 3 phase. I knew a guy that worked as a factory electrical engineer his whole life and he had no idea about what I was dong with 3 phase motors as generators etc. He'd heard of C2C, never seen it done. Lot of tricks and things he taught me though that I had no idea of.

One thing I learned was that Syncing a MAG setup to the grid is not that important. Spin it up, hit the switch and the motor will sync phase with a satisfying thump no matter  how far off. Some people would try to avoid that, other sick puppies like me think it's fun. Done it 100 times, never had a problem yet.

Every time I go look at a potential new house I check the fuse box. a Lot of places here now do have 3 phase to run the big ducted aircon systems, pool pumps and all the other high drain things modern homes have some have 4 Power meters, 3 phases plus off peak and some just have 2 which is what I prefer. That way I can back feed on any circuit instead of having to try to balance them out. Don't want to get a bill for one circuit and have nil usage or a much greater difference on the other 2.
 I also notice a lot of places have 3 phase to the board but only single phase connected from there.

Going to be very interesting to see how this works out. Seems like a great way to increase your power very cheaply and easily.
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 09, 2016, 03:36:13 PM
Hi Glort,

Ostensibly I am going to look mainly at tie in, with a little combined small 3phase output on it just in case I need it....

I am currently looking for some old style "twirly meters" to stick on the outputs, will be much easier to visually monitor things if I need to, and they are pretty robust to boot... As to the C2C, I probably will do a little balancing, but not much, mostly to stop it growling if needs be....

Pioneer....defs not...Broke, with lotsa stuff lying around to play with...Yes!! (I love it when the mates come round with a truckload of junk from a garage cleanout...especially the big eyes when they see what I do with the stuff, a real hoot!!)

Been playing with the Genhead this arvie...got most of the kinks worked out, rebuilt the rectifier board and got the starter windings online too, I am really happy about that!! Under several layers of paint, near the mount, I bumped into the label - Its a Stamford D8 series, quite a nice one as well... I also spun the one outlet duct around, now its in true clockwise config, just doing that improves the airflow by, at a guess, at least 10 to 15%... It looks like the local gennie "doctors" have had a go at changing the direction of starting at some point... the assholes tried by swopping the +/- lines in the box, not swopping over the polarity at the brushes... Obviously the eejuts have no clue as to the difference between a series/parallell wound motor and a permanent magnet motor..... Their loss, my gain... I think this unit was scrapped because it "couldn't be reversed" for starting when they tried it....

Right, the weekend is here!!

Beer o' clock chiming in the background!!

Keep it spinning....

Cheers
Ed



Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 12, 2016, 09:01:03 AM
Hey Guys,

First Smoke!! Bring out the cigars and snifters of cognac!!

Started TM2 up this weekend, a few short runs while I was sorting out the alternator connections.... Looks like one of our local profs defs had his hands in there!!... Eventually, I gutted all the internal add-ons and started rewiring the connections myself, without trying to find what was incorrect... I should have done it right from the start! (4 to 5 hours worth of trying to trace multi coloured wires, yep, snip black and orange, swop them over, snip orange and black, change them with red and blue....and that was just one of around 3 or 5 sets of mixups!!.....Enough!!)

Got the beast spinning at pretty close to 1500rpm, 245V while pushing around 1.5Kw resistive. I can pull the voltage down a bit, but I am not keen to, the line to the house is quite long and I reckon we are probably dropping up to about 10V over the stretch while at full load. The electric start has good torque and easily winds up TM2 to start revs within about 3 t 5 seconds, double flywheels and all, and, bonus, this it does on only 12vdc, so no need to put dual batteries on the starter side of things. (The charge/start circuit runs at 24vdc on this unit.) I will install a 12V motor style voltage regulator though, on the charge circuit, as I reckon 30Vdc might just turn my tractor battery into a football, even in the short term!!

There is a small water leak on the bottom of the jacket/cc joint, a small drip under the diesel tank, a small seep on the bottom of the oil pump, and thats about it - nothing really unexpected in that line from our Injun friends... The only PITA is having to lift the cylinder and spray in some sealer... I might just throw in a little powder and see how it works out. The other 2 drips are easy to sort out as he stands.

Shake, rock and roll, are minimum at everything up to the half load I have been testing at so far - There is a little shuffle, but this is to be expected as he is only standing on some wooden blocks at the moment. I have a wooden block under each corner "foot" of the chassis under the engine, and a single wooden block under the far end center where the 200L water reservoir is going to be supported. Currently all testes (yep, testes!) have been conducted with the generator cradle only tacked into place (8 small tacks holding that genhead and 3Ph motor assy in place with the overhead gantry hooked up as a bit of a safety measure).... Hence "testes", as balls have got to be bigger than brains to do it this way...Lol!

Once I have got the water pump onto the sub-frame and lined/hooked up, I can strip the whole mess down and look at welding and painting it up!!

I have an old CO2 cylinder lying around - I am considering integrating it into the chassis as a silencer, or even as a large water jacket/reservoir for hot water... Lets see what pans out!

Keep it thumping!!

Cheers
Ed

Edit: Anybody else done an "Inline" setup with a Lister CS/Alternator setup that you know of?
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on December 12, 2016, 09:55:55 AM
Sounds good Ed. the product of a lot of hard work and effort and probably more to come in fine tuning and getting it all into place.

I always like to have the voltage a tad high as well. Never come across anything that having the volts on the solid end didn't like. Helps with sags and pulling too much current.
That said, with the double flywheels you are going to have some great resistive load power.  Go from zero to full power in one flick of a switch and it will barely notice.... as long as the belts are up to it but I don't mind a bit of slip like that either to ease the strain and shock loading.

This one is nearly finished so you'll be able to go back to TM1 soon!  You have all the fun Ed.
I think TM1 should be twin Turbo with Nitrous as well as water injection with LIGHTENED flywheels for better throttle response and set up a large box section muffler that the flame from the exhaust blows onto to make a target top hot plate for Cooking.

You should be able to hook it up to a 20Kw alternator and still get the thing to turn at 3K rpm!  :0)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 12, 2016, 10:11:43 AM
Damn Glort!!

You reckon the 15 extra Barrels and Pistons I have, that I was going to turn TM1 into a radial are not gonna cut it..... Oh well, at least I can stay with the Nitro, Supercharger, Turbos and hot plate!! (Now I am going to have to get rid of the 200Kw alternator I had lined up as well... :-[  )

Lol
E

Edit: The genhead I have fitted is a Stamford ES11/1500RPM/Ser#R60973-1/6KvA/1Phase/220v/27.3A/24VDC@3A 2 wire unit.... Although I have kludged my way through its setup and wiring, do any of you gents have a basic internal schematic/layout/manual on PDF perhaps? (It looks very similar to the D8 / D11 series, closer to the D8 in fact, but there are some internal differences by the looks of it...Especially after I rewired it to get it up and running!!)
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: broncodriver99 on December 12, 2016, 03:52:33 PM
Edit: The genhead I have fitted is a Stamford ES11/1500RPM/Ser#R60973-1/6KvA/1Phase/220v/27.3A/24VDC@3A 2 wire unit.... Although I have kludged my way through its setup and wiring, do any of you gents have a basic internal schematic/layout/manual on PDF perhaps? (It looks very similar to the D8 / D11 series, closer to the D8 in fact, but there are some internal differences by the looks of it...Especially after I rewired it to get it up and running!!)

Ed. I have a Stamford ES8 4kw head. I sent Cummins(who now owns Stamford) an email with my model and serial and they were able to dig up an owners manual and electrical schematics. It took a day or two but they are really good about getting back to you. They can even give you the build date.

Here is their contact info. https://stamford-avk.com/contact
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 13, 2016, 08:22:03 AM
Hey BD!

I have buzzed off an email to them, hopefully they will respond! (I need a front bearing, hopefully the specs give sizes so that I can get one before I strip it down!!)

Many thanks
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 14, 2016, 08:52:57 AM
Hey Guys,

A minor update....

Yesterday was "Chassis Strip" day, I pulled TM2 off the chassis along with all of the turny bits, leaving just the bare chassis with all the nice shin-level sticky-outy-bits that were only tack welded in place. After finding several sharp corners using my shins as environment sensors, and several gantry assisted gyrations of the chassis later, everything has been welded fully into place, including 3x S/Steel "feet" to raise his carcass about an inch off the floor....(S/Steel Round bar 40mm diameter x 25mm long.)

Next step is to attend to the few niggly little seeps and drips while he is fully accessible....A right PITA but something that is needed to be done!! Incidentally, I remember when stripping and cleaning both TM1 and TM2, the pump - There were no springs in the ball non return valves on either inlet or outlet - Is this an Indian budget cut maybe? I will probably install a pair while I am at it, just wondering if anybody else on the forum has had similar? (The original design spec had a spring on the outlet valve if I remember correctly...)

Keep it pumping!!

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselspanner on December 14, 2016, 09:34:47 AM
Hi Ed

Don't know about the cost cutting exercise, but my original Lister has springs in the ball valves, who put them there I've no idea!

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 14, 2016, 04:30:11 PM
Thanks Stef,

I am planning to install a couple when I tear the pump down to sort out a minor drip in the next day or so....Didn't get much of a chance to play with it today, was too busy drooling over a new toy that arrived, a 73year old, single cylinder, disposable piston type thingy!!....(But my housemate did bring a few lengths of pipe to jacket the exhaust for the heat exchanger!)

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: EdDee on December 19, 2016, 10:47:54 AM
Hey Guys,

Another minor update regarding TM2:-

Finally tore myself away from the M1 Carbine to go and do some fabrication on the exhaust heatex's... All went well, Pics here under today's date:  http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods (http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM2 General Assy and Mods) (Towards the end of the list)

Made some inquiries about a shaft driven pump of around 1 1/2" inlet/outlet diameter.... INSANE!!! No way am I gonna pay USD300 for a unit.... I am making another plan to circulate coolant et al....

Now, being the lazy bastard I am, I have come up with an idea, don't know if or how well it will work, but hey, nothing ventured, nothing gained!!

I am going to try hydronic circulation on both the engine and the exhaust heat exchangers using a common medium and a common heat store... What I am going to try is to set up a 210L drum, slightly elevated, with the bottom about in line with the inlet for the engine water inlet.. The head outlet will go into the drum about 6" or so up from the outlet height of the cylinder head... That leaves about half a drum of headspace above the return. In this "headspace", I will install an upper and lower fitting that feeds the exhaust heat exchangers, the return near the top of the drum, and the outlet to the heatex just above the return from the head... A little above this inlet to the exhaust heatex, will be a hot water outlet to supply hot water on demand. Filling the drum will be taken care of by an old cistern style ball float valve I have on hand - all metal/brass construction so it can handle the heat. The outlet from this valve will be piped to the lower 7/8 of the 210L drum to introduce cool water to the engine side first. Should water supply fail during running, and hot water be in process of supply to the household, the 210L reservoir cannot be drained to empty, the actual outlet to household will be around the height of the inlet to the exhaust heatex, which is of no concern it it runs dry, as opposed to the cylinder/head coolant, which is a must!! - (Viewed from top to bottom, in order of fittings into the 210L drum - Top-Cold water supply from ball float controlled valve, next and a little below it, will be return from the exhaust heatex, next will be the supply to the exhaust heatex, just above middle of drum, almost on the same height will be the hot water outlet to the household, next will be the return from the cylinder head just below the middle of the drum, next the supply to the cylinder inlet which will be just above the bottom of the drum... Lastly there will be a "drain tap" which will be screwed into the smaller of the drum holes...Did I mention the drum was inverted and a largish hole was cut in the old bottom/now top of the drum to do all of this??)

Keep on heating!!

Cheers
Ed

Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: dieselspanner on December 19, 2016, 03:46:29 PM
Hi Ed
+1, either for 'wheel reinvention', concept upcycling or plagiarism!

Back in my miss spent youth I learned to make something very similar whilst in the 'forces.

A 40 gallon (210l) drum was laid horizontally over a source of heat (open fire, kerosine burner, ect,) and sandbagged in to make an semi permanent arrangement.

the outlet was a short length of pipe screwed into one or other of the fittings and set at twelve o' clock, the other was sealed off.

The inlet was a hole punched into the 'side' of the drum, at the top, with a funnel in it.

Once it was filled with water and had started to boil the only way to get hot water out was to pour some cold water into the top, thus it would never boil dry. 

Known as a Lazyman Boiler!

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
Post by: glort on December 20, 2016, 02:34:58 AM
 A mate has a similar heater he takes when camping.

It's a stainless steel keg with a 1" stainless tube that runs top to bottom. There is an extended screw in outlet on the side at the top. This makes it easy to remove for transport and a long length can be attached to get it well away from the blazing campfire.  Extended filler with 45o angle serves for input.
Same thing, Fi