Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Original Lister Cs Engines => Topic started by: Dieselsmoker on April 18, 2015, 09:39:59 PM

Title: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on April 18, 2015, 09:39:59 PM
Hi.
I have been on and off busy with a 6/1 restoration for quite some time now. There are lots of problems with the engine. Plenty wear and missing/broken parts. The engine was obviously abused, and a seized camshaft ultimately put the engine out of service. It was then left outside for a loooong time... some people have zero mechanical sympathy. ??? I'm having to deal with lots of rust and grinding off thick layers of paint.

As I strip, I try to clean and repair as much as I can.
Basic progress -
Injector: Fixed and set. (Was stuck and blocked)
Diesel pump: Fixed (Was stuck and blocked)
Head: Fixed up and painted (Valves stuck, springs badly corroded)
Other parts in stages of getting painted.
Bottom end basically untouched.

Next big challenge: I will use the engine as a standby generator when I'm done with it, but with the project being just a hobby, cost is an issue for me. I don't want to do halve a job, but I will fix what can be fixed - more fun that way anyway. The cylinder bore is badly worn - apparently it is typical of high-hour engines to wear the chrome away towards the top of the cylinder near the exhaust port. There are also some scorch marks towards the top of the piston, but I'll see how bad it is once the piston's been cleaned properly, but I suspect I will be able to use the piston again. I would like to bore out the cylinder and put a liner in it, but I've been advised not to do this. Can anyone comment on past experiences with putting a liner in? Is it really impossible?

Engine when it landed at home. Doesn't look too bad? Couple of surprises waiting for me...
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/995a/mv0au27hac1yr1g4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/mv0au27hac1yr1g/20130824_154015.jpg)

Mouse nest in head?
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/ee32/i2uj7e1b30k1gpt4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/i2uj7e1b30k1gpt/20130824_160028.jpg)

Head off
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/0a84/l19c2j0wl06cmri4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/l19c2j0wl06cmri/20130825_181043.jpg)

Underside head. Plenty rust.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/e732/vp9h3r8xl6r3ndn4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/vp9h3r8xl6r3ndn/20130825_181117.jpg)

Patience tester ;D
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/18a8/8fu0po9598f424a4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/8fu0po9598f424a/20130824_154116.jpg)

New style key... Some people can fix anything with a hammer.
(Notice the bolt hammered into the keyway.)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d458/la530f1k474t4i14g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/la530f1k474t4i1/20130824_154102.jpg)

SOM Solenoid:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/2c18/k8m6n897fdeignk4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/k8m6n897fdeignk/20130824_154043.jpg)

Serial Number:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/51d0/2c8c3u83hbvi4rd4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/2c8c3u83hbvi4rd/20130829_055242.jpg)

Cleaning Piston:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/458b/12j0izyo37kktdu4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/12j0izyo37kktdu/20130831_175625.jpg)

Head soaked in oil - Springs rusted badly.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/57a3/ac6nnodf82oeqnb4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/ac6nnodf82oeqnb/20130901_173418.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on April 18, 2015, 10:20:26 PM
Nice project!

If you have a competent machine shop within reach, then the cylinder sleeve is a very good fix for the bore wear problem. Your options are basically: sleeve the old bore back to standard, bore it and use oversize piston assembly, replace it entirely.

Thanks for posting!

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on April 18, 2015, 10:35:52 PM
Hi Dieselgman.
I'll clean the piston properly and report back on it's condition. I think putting a liner in is first prize when considering cost. I had a look on http://www.stationaryengineparts.com/ (http://www.stationaryengineparts.com/) for a new cylinder block. The exchange rate of 18 South African Rand to the Pound plus shipping made my stomach turn!  :-\

Do you have any idea how much can be safely bored out from the cylinder to put a liner in? Are the liners usually stepped?
If it turns out that the piston is no-good, I will go oversize. I see the aftermarket oversize pistons are all aluminium. Does the light piston not upset the balancing of the engine?

Regards.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Hugh Conway on April 18, 2015, 10:55:53 PM
@Dsmoker:
Re: boring it out to re-sleeve. Had that done with my 6/1. worked fine, lots of meat in that cylinder wall to machine out and re-sleeve back to original 4.5" bore. I did not measure the O.D. of the dry sleeve, though if memory serves, it has at least 1/8" wall thickness. There was no step in the O.D. You must use a cast iron piston for the 6/1 or your machine will be out of balance at least. Al pistons are used in the 8/1.
Cheers, Hugh
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: starfire on April 18, 2015, 10:57:39 PM
Seriously, I would return that cylinder and piston into service as is. I have seen many worse than this that ran just fine. The wear into the chrome coating is quite normal for this age, and seems not to cause any great concern with compression loss, blowby or oil consumption issues. The money saved too, as you have found is considerable. I suggest put it together and give it a run. I think you will find its all good, and you have nothing to lose by trying it anyway. These are not a  Ferrari engine, they are an overbuilt agricultural design that will run happily with greatly out of spec tolerances, this is why they are 80 years old and still running.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: mike90045 on April 19, 2015, 03:13:29 AM
re injectors

Anyone ever have any dribble coming out of that return port, that is supposed to go back to the fuel tank ?   

 I've not had a drop, and am wondering exactly what the function of the port is.  Why is it supposed to dribble, and what does it mean if it does not ?
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Hugh Conway on April 19, 2015, 03:28:47 AM
re injectors

Anyone ever have any dribble coming out of that return port, that is supposed to go back to the fuel tank ?   

 I've not had a drop, and am wondering exactly what the function of the port is.  Why is it supposed to dribble, and what does it mean if it does not ?
The return port is to return injector internal leakage back to the fuel tank. In early versions there was small collector can instead of the tank return. I have not personally experienced this leakage, but after many hours and internal wear, I suppose it does happen.
Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on April 19, 2015, 02:15:37 PM
Piston cleaning: (Camera exposure a bit slow - piston was only doing around 200 rpm)
(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13910&g2_serialNumber=2)

Piston cleaned up nicely:
There is some minor pitting on the OD  due to water corrosion, but nothing to worry about.
(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13913&g2_serialNumber=2)

Crown pitted due to water standing in the engine:
(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13916&g2_serialNumber=2)

@Dsmoker:
Re: boring it out to re-sleeve. Had that done with my 6/1. worked fine, lots of meat in that cylinder wall to machine out and re-sleeve back to original 4.5" bore. I did not measure the O.D. of the dry sleeve, though if memory serves, it has at least 1/8" wall thickness. There was no step in the O.D. You must use a cast iron piston for the 6/1 or your machine will be out of balance at least. Al pistons are used in the 8/1.
Cheers, Hugh

I'll go speak to the guys at the local engineering shop about sleeving it. Do you know what the piston-to-bore clearance and the ring gap is? My "Lister 5/1 Spare Parts Book" indicates that the gap is 0.012" to 0.016" (0.31mm to 0.41mm). I heard that some guys use the aluminium piston in the 6/1, but that just doesn't feel right... I can imagine that scenario upsetting the engine's balance.

Seriously, I would return that cylinder and piston into service as is. I have seen many worse than this that ran just fine. The wear into the chrome coating is quite normal for this age, and seems not to cause any great concern with compression loss, blowby or oil consumption issues. The money saved too, as you have found is considerable. I suggest put it together and give it a run. I think you will find its all good, and you have nothing to lose by trying it anyway. These are not a  Ferrari engine, they are an overbuilt agricultural design that will run happily with greatly out of spec tolerances, this is why they are 80 years old and still running.

You are right about the engines being forgiving to wear. I just worry a bit about the ridge that formed where the chrome wore away. In the corresponding position on the piston there is some carbon build up just above the top ring. There was obviously some blow by - just not sure how bad. The build up could have happened over years?

I put the rings one after the other in the bottom of the bore and got these measurements:
Rings worn out...  :(
#1: 0.77mm
#2: 0.70mm
#3: 0.65mm
#4: 0.60mm
#5: 0.90mm
(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13919&g2_serialNumber=2)

Bore Diameter (measured at bottom): 114.36mm to 114.38mm
The top of the bore measured 114.44mm (0.07mm Taper)
The spot where the chrome is gone: 114.60mm
(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13922&g2_serialNumber=2)

I measured the piston with a Vernier. Unfortunately I don't have an outside Micrometer big enough.
(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13931&g2_serialNumber=2)

Check Vernier size with micrometer: 114.15 (I'll still confirm this size later, but it can't be far off.)
Thus, piston to bore clearance is: 114.37 - 114.15 = 0.22
(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13934&g2_serialNumber=2)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: mike90045 on April 20, 2015, 05:22:26 AM
Anybody - Any thoughts on ceramic piston coatings ?  on the top face of the piston ? 
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: millman56 on April 20, 2015, 07:22:30 AM
Not much point really, might make decarbonising easier though.

Mark.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on April 20, 2015, 02:06:50 PM
We had that coating applied to some 18/1 pistons for a client. Most likely no real benefit besides reducing combustion deposits. I will report here when we get anything back from this experiment. We also did skirt coating with a Teflon dry film... should be interesting at the least.

(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=10327&g2_serialNumber=1)

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: AdeV on April 20, 2015, 06:11:54 PM
Coating the piston of a normally aspirated engine won't do much for it. Typically, coatings are used to reduce heat rejection through the piston to the oil. In a typical multi-cylinder auto engine (and a race engine specifically, which was my interest), coated pistons/heads can actually reduce power because more heat is retained in the cylinder, which reduces the amount of fresh fuel/air charge that can be accommodated on the next stroke. Turbocharged engines, on the other hand, benefit because of the extra heat going into the turbine gives it a bit more power; and the compressor boost overcomes the lack of charge capacity; so coat pistons/heads in turbo applications, but not Normally Aspirated applications...

I have no idea if the above is a crock or not, because I don't have any way of comparing coated vs. not coated; but after speaking to numerous piston manufacturers AND coatings companies, they all said basically the same thing.

Now, coating the skirt with a teflon or molybdenum coating - that IS worth doing (in a race engine) as it reduces friction = more available power. In a big single cyl slow-speed diesel, I suspect the HP gains would be minuscule and the extra power would never "pay off" the cost of the coating - but the reduced friction and hence reduced wear would certainly give a longer bore life. Given the age of our engines, and the fact that - apart from the dubious Indian clones - no new barrels are being made, it might be worth coating a piston skirt just to put off the inevitable day when you have to bore & sleeve your cylinder barrel.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on April 21, 2015, 01:39:38 AM
Ade, I think you are right. These pistons are being run in an oversized Listeroid (18/1) with turbocharger for what it is worth.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on April 23, 2015, 02:02:12 PM
I have been doing some window shopping for parts:
I will appreciate some comments or ideas of other sources, or experiences with the shops listed. (PM me if you have warnings!)
I'm hoping to take my cylinder to the engineering shop tomorrow afternoon to discuss the re-sleeving with them and also get a quote if they are up to the job. I don't think I'll get much chance to get my hands dirty with rust and diesel this weekend as I will start with wiring in my mains changeover switch. We are getting some load shedding at the moment and I'm not too keen on the backfeeding idea, so I'll make it safe and legal to connect my noisy petrol generator to the DB. How I wish this Lister was running already...
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselspanner on April 23, 2015, 10:45:30 PM
I have just ordered an injector pump, high pressure pipe, injector and all the banjo bolts from Dev Precision, total cost 60 plus 25 p & p, delivered to France, paid by Paypal, 8 / 10 days delivery.

If anyone is interested I'll post up when they arrive

A rebuild of my existing pump and injector was quoted at 155 in the UK

This is on Ebay UK opening at 85 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/C-A-V-Fuel-Injection-Pump-Lister-CS-Stationary-Engine-New-Unused-Old-Stock-/261853696866?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3cf7b25362

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselspanner on April 24, 2015, 12:42:06 PM
Ref the post above,

I ordered the parts via email on Sunday, 19th, had a confirmation email on Monday and paid via Paypal. They arrived today, Friday 24th at 1220!!

Can't fault it, as the Welsh say.

Everything was there and it all fits together,as to performance, that'll have to wait 'til I sort the rest out.

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Hugh Conway on April 24, 2015, 10:30:55 PM
@Dieselspanner:
Must be nice to have a functioning postal system! Just got some Enfield parts in the mail today (24 April) from India. Purchased 26 March, posted via air soon after. Arrived Vancouver, then took an additional 3+ weeks to get to our post office, less than 200 km  (120 miles) away. This is normal.
Even from a destination inside of Canada, takes 3 weeks or so. Rates are huge as well.
Canadian Postal "Service"!!!!!!!
Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselspanner on April 25, 2015, 09:17:41 AM
Hi Hugh

It wasn't the French who had a hand in it, otherwise it would still be in Paris, it was UPS!!!

The French parcel service is called Chronopost, should be Chronicpost, the idle sods won't drive the 18k up the mountain so they swear blind you weren't in and you must have lost the little post card they should have left, or they couldn't find it, despite the fact it's a huge white house with a B&B sign outside on the only main road to the col.

Enough rant, I'll let some else get the thread back on topic!

Good luck with the Enfield, I quite fancy one, there's a Brit round here with 7/8 of them ,he's bound to get bored with one sooner or later!!

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on April 26, 2015, 04:45:39 PM
I've been doing some homework and some thinking -- A couple of worries I had is now busy getting sorted.
The engineering shop says they can machine the cylinder oversize to accept a sleeve. I suggested they shouldn't machine more than 3 a side out the bore, and they found a suitable sleeve in the catalog. I ordered the sleeve through a parts store and I was promised that will get the sleeve this coming Tuesday.

The seized camshaft is another headache - Only the shaft and the bushes are damaged, but I can only get a complete camshaft. Nobody keeps stock of the shaft only. So I decided to machine the ends of the shaft and make new under-size bushes. I'll go see the engineering steel supplier next week and see if they can identify the cast bush material and supply that. I don't expect it to something weird other than some close grained cast iron. I wonder why this bush was not made of bronze like the other side? I recon IF the cast iron turns out to be a problem, then bronze might just do the trick. Maybe the end float bearing faces of a bronze bush will wear quicker than the cast iron?

I received my invoice from Dev Precision, and I think I'll click the pay button. I'm getting a new gudgeon pin (wrist pin), new small end bush, new rings and new diesel pipes (Pump to injector and injector leak-off). $48 + $37 shipping = $85.

Anyway, my changeover installation is done! It was a full day's work to do the wiring in the DB and then crawl through the roof to get to the generator in the garage that is separate from the house. (About 32 meters worth of cable). It's now just a matter of starting the generator and flipping the changeover to get things back to normal. I have a 5Kw and a 1.8Kw generator. Depending on what work I need to get done in the house is just a matter of plugging in the generator of choice. The 5Kw logs the most hours, but if we just sit and watch TV with some lights on I get the small machine on line. It's much more forgiving on fuel consumption - it just battles a bit when the two fridges start at the same time... 

Generators:
(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13982&g2_serialNumber=2)

Changeover next to DB board
(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13979&g2_serialNumber=2)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on April 27, 2015, 07:52:37 PM
Just a brief update:

Quickly turned a drift to take the camshaft's bronze bush out of the casing. It'll show it's real worth when it's time to drive the new bush in.
(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13986&g2_serialNumber=2)

Bush out!
(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13989&g2_serialNumber=2)

I stripped the camshaft. See how the taper pin that holds the gear sheared off... Thank goodness for that! The pin that sheared saved all the other parts.
The taper pins in the valve cams were tough buggers to get out, but I always win  ;)
(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13992&g2_serialNumber=2)

I'm now busy setting up the shaft to see if I can save it. Pity there's no centre holes in the shaft, so I had to drill centre holes. Setting up is going to be a tedious job...
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on April 29, 2015, 06:50:15 PM
Been busy again:

Got the new sleeve. (3mm wall thickness)
I'll just put this aside for a while. I have more important things to sort out first.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c701/qwq4rkdr84honba4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/qwq4rkdr84honba/20150429_183058.jpg)

Machining the shaft ends
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/a5b5/v1bja9s7z19zi454g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/v1bja9s7z19zi45/20150429_132629.jpg)

Shaft cleaned up 0.3mm under size at the one end, and a little more on the other end.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/5e0a/6fv4p6pz6jghmg94g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/6fv4p6pz6jghmg9/20150429_133433.jpg)

The seized end looks good as new
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/526b/mrj11nk55lpvb5v4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/mrj11nk55lpvb5v/20150429_182952.jpg)

New cam bushes!! (well almost...)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/ddf8/5lawdhahf5al09w4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/5lawdhahf5al09w/20150429_183038.jpg)

I need to figure out what the correct running clearances are for the bushes. Any ideas? I would love to have the internal measurements of new original bushes...

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Hugh Conway on April 29, 2015, 09:14:50 PM
@ Dieselsmoker:
Oh for a lathe and the knowledge of how to use it!
The last photo with the broken cast cam bushing: looks like the missing part of it may be a match to the bit I found in my crankcase sump.  Must have ended up there long ago, as an intact, complete bushing is there now!
Thanks for the photos, keep us in the loop.
Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Gippslander on April 30, 2015, 11:56:16 AM
Very nice machining work. Looks like a Asian made  lathe .

Is that a brazed carbide tool you are using ?  I've never had any luck with those brazed tools for some reason .

I made a new camshaft bush for my roid , I used a chunk of cast iron I had here .

I like how you  the reversed tool post to give more room for the tool in front of the live centre , I must remember that trick

Mike

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on April 30, 2015, 02:08:47 PM
@ Dieselsmoker:
Oh for a lathe and the knowledge of how to use it!
The last photo with the broken cast cam bushing: looks like the missing part of it may be a match to the bit I found in my crankcase sump.  Must have ended up there long ago, as an intact, complete bushing is there now!
Thanks for the photos, keep us in the loop.
Cheers,
Hugh

Hi there Hugh.
Yes, the lathe has become a tool I can't live without. I can't tell you how many times I start'er up to turn problems into shavings. That broken piece of bushing I made using a drift on the camshaft with a very big hammer in my right hand... that bush was seized SOLID on the shaft. Notice how the broken piece has a chunk missing on the one side: I had to break it to get it off the shaft.

Quote from: Gippslander
Very nice machining work. Looks like a Asian made  lathe .
Is that a brazed carbide tool you are using ?  I've never had any luck with those brazed tools for some reason .
I made a new camshaft bush for my roid , I used a chunk of cast iron I had here .
I like how you  the reversed tool post to give more room for the tool in front of the live centre , I must remember that trick
Mike

Hi Mike.
I have no idea where the lathe is made. It is sold under the name "Mac-Afric" by a tool company in South Africa. They import a whole range of equipment from all over under their brand name.
Brazed tools are a bit "yesterday's technology". The trick is all in the sharpening technique to make them work. I also use HSS tools for special jobs. They are even more outdated in comparison, but you'll see how nice they work when I make the grooving tools for the bush ID. For someone who has not been taught to grind tooling, rather steer away and invest in disposable tip tools. I believe the brass bush is actually oilite, and the other end is cast iron. I got the cast iron, but the oilite bush I will replace with brass. I think there is enough lubrication for the brass to work just fine.

Regards,
Martin.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 09, 2015, 07:16:56 PM
Hi Guys. Some updates again.
I've done some painting of loose parts. Just for interest sake, I've approached this restoration a little different. Usually one would strip the whole engine down to a million pieces, and then start withe the cleaning and repair process. Because I knew from the start that it was going to be a long term project, I decided to strip, repair and store the parts as I remove them.

I'm aiming for a nice finish so the tappet cover is going back to the body shop... The rotary wire brush left some marks in the aluminium and it's showing a little through the paint.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/89fd/n77j8jqz0928eoz4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/n77j8jqz0928eoz/20150501_174145.jpg)

Look what I found:
My dad gave me this tin of Glyptal he bought years ago. He recons he's had this since around 1970!!!!! I made a stirrer for my electric drill and it mixed up perfect! Unbelievable...
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/027d/4kljjd33bi8m47g4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/4kljjd33bi8m47g/20150509_172500.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 09, 2015, 07:33:55 PM
Been busy behind the lathe for the most of today.

Here I have the brass bush roughed out and cooled down. Best practice is to loosen the jaws and then reset the job using minimal pressure before final machining. This will prevent the final machined bush from being out-of-round. I've machined bronze bushings up to 1.5m diameter to within 0.05 tolerance. They do go out of round afterwards, but as long as the wall thickness is uniform, the bush will go round again when installed.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/47cb/imx4mva4xn12k4v4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/imx4mva4xn12k4v/20150509_082117.jpg)

Diameters final machined. Parting off and catching the bush with a dowel stick.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/fba3/5ql4kfdjvj5go814g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/5ql4kfdjvj5go81/20150509_091808.jpg)

The start of the cast iron bush.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/4407/l31eff8l53wcknr4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/l31eff8l53wcknr/20150509_093442.jpg)

Starting to look familiar?
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6515/yarozb8alq9pwcd4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/yarozb8alq9pwcd/20150509_132100.jpg)

Last operation: Final machining the flange of the cast iron bush. The thickness of the flange determines the camshaft end-float.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/160e/3j530q9o8jp5p2u4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/3j530q9o8jp5p2u/20150509_135203.jpg)

Special grooving tool I made from High Speed Steel.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c1c1/tm7dsuezievwh6v4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/tm7dsuezievwh6v/20150509_155141.jpg)

Same tool turned 90 degrees to slot the longitudinal oil groove.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/4e70/uev08cx31gfxbye4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/uev08cx31gfxbye/20150509_155349.jpg)

Done!
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/4c55/3lxfzr640q1elxt4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/3lxfzr640q1elxt/20150509_161835.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: biggkidds on May 10, 2015, 12:22:31 PM
Very nice! You do good work. Sure is nice to have the right tools for the job isn't it?
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on May 10, 2015, 04:22:00 PM
Beautiful lathe work... I thought you might want a look at the internal machining on another bronze cam end bushing - Lister part number 009-06003 ...

(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=14066&g2_serialNumber=1)

(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=14064&g2_serialNumber=1)

Passive lubricating oil distribution guaranteed this way.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 11, 2015, 09:21:16 AM
Very nice! You do good work. Sure is nice to have the right tools for the job isn't it?

Thank you!
Oh yes - to have the right tool for the job makes problems go away very quickly. A decent tool collection doesn't happen overnight. I've started buying basic tools one-by-one since I was very young by saving up my pocket money. :) The machine tools are the difficult ones to buy as the once off capital investment is heavy for a normal household. I have some more items on my wishlist, but oh dear... the house needs painting, the car needs tires, the kitchen needs a revamp.....  ;D :D
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 11, 2015, 10:04:44 AM
Beautiful lathe work... I thought you might want a look at the internal machining on another bronze cam end bushing - Lister part number 009-06003 ...

Passive lubricating oil distribution guaranteed this way.

dieselgman

Hi dieselgman.
Thanks for the compliment and the info. I like the idea of putting the grooves in the bush.
So according to what I can see in the pictures, there is one radial groove down the middle of the bush, and just one axial groove that connects to it?

What would be the correct orientation be to install the brass bush in the cover? The cast iron bush has the oil hole in the 12 O'clock position, and the axial groove at 6 O'clock - the axial groove is relatively narrow, so not much bearing surface area is lost. The groove in your brass bush seems quite wide: There will be varying radial forces during most of the shaft's rotation as the followers ramp up and down the cams, but I would think that the brass bush must have the axial groove pointing to 12 O'clock as the bush will probably see the most pressure at 6 O'clock as the cams act against the fully compressed valve springs?  ....Unless it was designed to collect oil at the bottom and outer journal (without a groove) being big enough to carry the load?  ???
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on May 11, 2015, 11:19:53 AM
As I understand it, the axial groove provides the pathway for splashed oil to enter the bushing (at 12 o'clock) and the radial groove provides a small reservoir around the camshaft circumference to keep the bush fully lubricated.

I have not been inside enough of the Dursley CS originals to claim a very broad experience with this specific design detail overall... but I believe it to be to original specs. There were different part numbers for this same part on the twins vs the singles and this one might match the twin design where there was also a center bushing involved. I do not believe the loss of bearing surface area to be much of a factor when the groove is properly located, fully reliable lubrication is probably the more important design aspect in this case.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 17, 2015, 08:02:56 PM
They say time flies when your'e having fun?  :-\
I was hoping to get a bit more done this weekend, but judging by the way my back felt when I got up this morning, I DID get enough done  :laugh:

The remaining modification on the camshaft was to bush the collar so it would fit properly on the undersize shaft. I faced and bored out the collar to give the bush more meat.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d433/dw3dn4b42y8tjwj4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/dw3dn4b42y8tjwj/20150513_152030.jpg)

Flanged bush fitted:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/3535/dznu2lcwyu5u2kl4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/dznu2lcwyu5u2kl/20150513_152116.jpg)

I didn't follow the example in the picture dieselgman send me exactly, but instead I copied the groove design of the cast iron bush.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/1d37/ckdacxfk8x396x04g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/ckdacxfk8x396x0/20150516_093523.jpg)

The camshaft is now finished and it's a great relief... but there's always something else... I have three new taper pins I bought from stationaryengineparts. The one in the collar I can use if I must, so I'm 2 short. I was surprised to learn that no-one carries stock of taper pins any longer.  ??? Not a biggie though - I need to order a couple of things later so I'll get the pins when I place the order. I thought of turning them but it's such a schlep to get the taper right that it's just not worth the time spend.

Time to get dirty again:

Diesel filter housing has two of cover's corners broken off.
I've done cast-iron welding before on my Fairbanks-Morse to repair all the frost cracks, but I think brazing might be an easier and more appropriate process for this job. Somewhere along the line I ran out of brazing rods, so out came the nickel rods to get the job done.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/b6f5/8mqqy54ddfcp1tq4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/8mqqy54ddfcp1tq/20150725_145215.jpg)

Pre-heat - weld - peen - keep warm - weld - peen - keep warm - repeat. After welding cool down slooowly - I usually put the parts inside a fibreglass blanket to slow down the cooling process as much as possible.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/5583/lb5cwxyl1vtqs5h4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/lb5cwxyl1vtqs5h/20150725_152348.jpg)

As with the rest of the engine, this was also filled with water for a loong time. Everything is brittle. I saw elsewhere on the forum that very nice paper element retrofits can be done on these. I'll shelve this for now.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/cf2d/3m9o88ppp8owj6f4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/3m9o88ppp8owj6f/20150516_130225.jpg)

After a couple of hours worth of grinding and sanding I ended up with these parts prepped for painting. (and I was very black). I'm "blueprinting" the casting finishes. All the ugly fettling and casting imperfections are meticulously ground away.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/5f18/5ttag3ien8472it4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/5ttag3ien8472it/20150516_180058.jpg)

Not sure how I'll get my hands clean again, but the crank is out. (Came out very easily)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9928/ojw56vvgvo9gfpt4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/ojw56vvgvo9gfpt/20150517_162101.jpg)

Next surprise:
The main bearings are gone and it looks like they were ready to seize. Good thing the camshaft seized instead and spared the crank from damage.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/019d/mlpz88h52fvu7lk4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/mlpz88h52fvu7lk/20150517_162014.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on May 17, 2015, 08:50:48 PM
McMaster Carr carries the taper pins as well as the tooling to work with them. The cast iron filter housing (and cap) is inexpensive from India. Those main bearings are the worst worn out I've seen on one of the CS types. You must have had a lot of oil contamination and lack of maintenance to get there. Luckily, they are designed to be replaced with new - and run on for our lifetime if given half a chance. Just carefully measure the crank journals for excessive wear and be sure they are polished to a mirror finish before installing new bearings.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: TxBlacksmith on May 17, 2015, 09:40:55 PM
What is the best/recommended procedure for polishing the journals?  I need to do this while I wait for the durn rain to stop, so I can finally get
 the engine painted inside/out!
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on May 17, 2015, 10:42:22 PM
The professionals spin them in a lathe and sometimes use a counter-rotating strip of emory cloth. We use the lathe and hand-held cloth strips. In some bad cases, we sometimes have to start with 600 grit and work down to the super-fines.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 21, 2015, 10:37:13 AM
Can someone please measure the flange thickness of a new main bearing?
Thanks!

(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=14099&g2_serialNumber=2)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: richardhula on May 21, 2015, 12:26:49 PM
As I understand it, the axial groove provides the pathway for splashed oil to enter the bushing (at 12 o'clock) and the radial groove provides a small reservoir around the camshaft circumference to keep the bush fully lubricated.

I have not been inside enough of the Dursley CS originals to claim a very broad experience with this specific design detail overall... but I believe it to be to original specs. There were different part numbers for this same part on the twins vs the singles and this one might match the twin design where there was also a center bushing involved. I do not believe the loss of bearing surface area to be much of a factor when the groove is properly located, fully reliable lubrication is probably the more important design aspect in this case.

dieselgman

The form of lubrication you describe seems common to many Lister bearing surfaces that don't have the luxury of being in an oil bath or having forced lub feed. The auxiliary shaft on a JP for example has a significant indentation in the casting at the top of each of its bearing housings. A hole is driiled though the bottom of this to align with one in phoshor bronze bearing bush which is a press fit within. So with splash there is a constant puddle of oil feeding it. 
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: listard-jp2 on May 21, 2015, 01:42:11 PM
Just carefully measure the crank journals for excessive wear and be sure they are polished to a mirror finish before installing new bearings.

Also when fitting the main bearing housings to the crankshaft, ensure that the keyways in the crankshft are at the 6 o'clock position. This gives you the best chance of not scoring the white metal bearing surfaces on the edge of a sharp keyway.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: 38ac on May 21, 2015, 02:02:43 PM
The Indian fuel filter top should replace that one perfectly and nobody except us will ever know ;). A lot of Listeroid users throw the whole filter aside and replace it with modern filtration so there should be some around that can be had.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on May 22, 2015, 02:54:25 PM
Dieselsmoker, That main bearing flange (thrust face) thickness should be 0.30 inches or 7.8mm.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 23, 2015, 07:44:08 PM
Dieselsmoker, That main bearing flange (thrust face) thickness should be 0.30 inches or 7.8mm.

dieselgman

Great! Thanks dieselgman - That dimension will come in very handy later on.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Today's mission was to clean up the crankcase:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c4d8/ce4cc8j8ogs9mqq4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/ce4cc8j8ogs9mqq/20150523_145033.jpg)

After plenty of brushing and blasting the inside with the high pressure sprayer the black stuff is gone...
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/f640/5myt6lnkl7pkm5t4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/5myt6lnkl7pkm5t/20150523_105733.jpg)

Mass production fettling done for function, not looks:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6a03/7e0q7vxrwdkjb804g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/7e0q7vxrwdkjb80/20150523_112500.jpg)

I'm sure if Mr. R.A. Lister had his way the finish would have resembled something like this instead:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/cf59/7h843cpz0qyck0z4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/7h843cpz0qyck0z/20150523_114810.jpg)

Result after grinding away for most part of the day:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/3f63/8kqvblz5mzevrlz4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/8kqvblz5mzevrlz/20150523_145042.jpg)

Primer coat on:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9a7b/xg0rbpe87jhfdrl4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/xg0rbpe87jhfdrl/20150523_163824.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 29, 2015, 08:17:10 PM
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/8807/bebip6obcjl1zsm4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/bebip6obcjl1zsm/CS_crank_tolerances.png)

I'm trying to make sense of the tolerance table.
Crankshaft is 2 Inch Diameter.
Machining Limits (thous) -2 / -2   (-0.002" / -0.0025")
SO does this mean the crank diameter can be between 2.000" and 1.998"? Why the 1.9975" size? Am I reading this wrong?

Next problem - The main bearing size: 
+ / -
No idea what to do with that.. +three quarter thou? can't be..

What I need now is to figure out what the main bearing bush inside diameter is, and also what the upper and lower limits are.

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on May 29, 2015, 08:37:07 PM
I know... a lot of assumptions about the data provided for trained machinists.

crank main journal 1.998/1.9975  this is the acceptable freshly machined range. Maximum wear to 1.990".
crank pin journal 2.498/2.4975 maximum wear to 2.491".

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on May 29, 2015, 08:45:45 PM
I will have to do some further research but I see a wrist-pin specification for the smaller bore Listers at 0.0017" initial clearance, and 0.0033" maximum allowable clearance in a worn engine.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 29, 2015, 09:28:14 PM
I know... a lot of assumptions about the data provided for trained machinists.

crank main journal 1.998/1.9975  this is the acceptable freshly machined range.
crank pin journal 2.498/2.4975 maximum wear to 2.491

dieselgman

Hi dgm. I agree with that.

My plan is to try my hand at babbit casting, so I would really like to figure out what that mains bore should be. I took the other bearing out and funny enough, it looks fine - there is of course some wear in the bearing, but I'm not sure if I it's still within limits.

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on May 29, 2015, 09:36:30 PM
Fit and measure a wrist-pin to determine the wear involved.

On the main bearings... I would just add the recommended oil clearance to the initial machined journal dimension for determining the shell dimension.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 01, 2015, 09:27:17 AM
Time to catch up on my latest progress.
The project has now finally reached a turning point. All the heavy dirt is gone, and almost everything is cleaned up. NOW the fun starts!!!
There is still a mountain of work ahead of me, but to finish off, assemble and see all the bits coming together is very satisfying.

Cleaning up the crankshaft.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/90a5/zdwp9om3s240cs54g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/zdwp9om3s240cs5/20150530_090639.jpg)

Primer coated and casting pin holes filled.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d2f4/2l47o9z5ho4b1sc4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/2l47o9z5ho4b1sc/20150530_133539.jpg)

Time to go green.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/e73d/r7rsrdsy30exxyh4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/r7rsrdsy30exxyh/20150530_162515.jpg)

I put an unthinkable amount of work into the flywheels. I'm very satisfied with the way they turned out. This is after all the part that spectators stare the most at  ;)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/90b3/ctclec5thx26i1a4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/ctclec5thx26i1a/20150601_065613.jpg)

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 01, 2015, 10:01:29 AM
Fit and measure a wrist-pin to determine the wear involved.

On the main bearings... I would just add the recommended oil clearance to the initial machined journal dimension for determining the shell dimension.

dieselgman

It's kinda weird that with all the information available on these engines, the technical stuff is thin on the ground... but I suppose that's why we have this forum.
If no-one has the info we'll figure it out!

Time to drag the thick green book closer. (This thing knows more than google  8) )
Machinery's Handbook, twenty-first edition of 1980
Summary of relevant information on page 1540:

RC (Running Clearance), Categorized from 1-9
RC1 - Close sliding fits. Accurate location without perceptible play
RC2 - Sliding fits. Accurate location. Fit, move and turn easily. Not intended to run freely. May seize with small temperature changes.
RC3 - Precision running. Closest fit which can be expected to run freely. Slow speed, light journal pressure. Not suitable for where appreciable temperature changes are likely to be encountered.
RC4 Close running fit. Accurate machinery with moderate surface speeds and journal pressure where accurate location and minimum play is required.
RC5 & RC6 Medium running fits. Higher running speeds and/or heavy journal pressures.
RC7 Free running fit. Accuracy is not essential and/or large temperature variations.
RC8 & RC9 Loose running fits. For wide commercial tolerances together with an allowance on the external member.

If I look at this RC5/RC6 looks about right?

For RC5, in the 2 range, the clearance must be between 2.5 thou (0.064mm) and 5.5 thou (0.14mm).
Lets say the crank measures 1.998, then the bush must measure
Minimum: 1.998 + 0.0025 = 2.0005 (50.81mm) 
Maximum: 1.998 + 0.0055 = 2.0035 (50.89mm)

Machinery's Handbook, twenty-first edition of 1980. Page 1543
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/4d75/n29pww4bc4wrkow4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/n29pww4bc4wrkow/Limits_Fits_p1543.JPG)

Machinery's Handbook, twenty-first edition of 1980. Page 1544
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/a6ce/dkqwy9il6vfuv2o4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/dkqwy9il6vfuv2o/Limits_Fits_p1544.JPG)

Regards,
DS
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on June 01, 2015, 01:47:01 PM
There are some snippets of this information here and there in the technical literature, but it is a bit of a pain that not much is published together in a readily accessible format. As the decades went by, Lister did improve greatly on their workshop and technical manuals.

On those clearances... I believe that we have used 0.003" as nominal oil clearance but I will have to do some looking to confirm with precision. Your information for RC5 does look about right.

I could just measure a new main bearing for you as a point of reference.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 01, 2015, 02:38:12 PM
There are some snippets of this information here and there in the technical literature, but it is a bit of a pain that not much is published together in a readily accessible format. As the decades went by, Lister did improve greatly on their workshop and technical manuals.

On those clearances... I believe that we have used 0.003" as nominal oil clearance but I will have to do some looking to confirm with precision. Your information for RC5 does look about right.

I could just measure a new main bearing for you as a point of reference.

dieselgman

Hi dgm.
Thank you, I will appreciate that.

DS
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 03, 2015, 11:59:35 AM
Dieselsmoker, That main bearing flange (thrust face) thickness should be 0.30 inches or 7.8mm.

dieselgman

Hi dgm
I cleaned up the bearing that is still in one piece and I measure 0.323" (8.2mm). Will you please check the size again? Is it not maybe 8.8mm??
This 8.2mm I get must definitely be undersize considering the wear on the rest of the assembly.
The bore of this bush measures 50.86mm mean. (0.02mm oval). Working on STD sizes it's about a thou over maximum.

I'm busy capturing all these tolerances and dimensions in a spreadsheet. I'll share when the blank blocks are all filled in. If you don't mind I'll ask for your input later on.

(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=14154&g2_serialNumber=2)

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on June 03, 2015, 06:14:33 PM
I just measured the main bearing bush and get the following dimensions (in inches):

Thrust flange thickness is 0.313"
bearing inside diameter is 2.018"

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: 38ac on June 03, 2015, 09:01:52 PM

 
Hi, Sorry I have been busy in the shop and not keeping on reading your build.

Most all the information you seek is there however it is in a form that is not familiar to us that are used to more modern specification tables.
(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=14129&g2_serialNumber=1)

The crank shaft main bearing portion is nominal 2" diameter the crank pin is nominal 2 1/2"
However the machining limits are - 2 /2 1/2 which is thousands or -.002/.0025  
So the finished main bearing diameter is 1.9975 /1.998
 The finished crank pin must measure 2.498 /2.4975

The main bearings shells are also 2" nominal, You must assume this because they are to fit on a 2" nominal shaft.
The  I.D. tolerance for the main bearings is +3/4 to -1/4 or + .00075/ - .00025 so the I.D. of a new main bearing would be 2.00075 -1.99975
The I.D. tolerance for a fitted rod (big end) bearing is +1/2/-1/2 or  +.00050/ -.00050 or 2.5005 / 2.4995

To translate all that in to running clearances
The maximum main bearing clearance is the smallest shaft .1.9975 fitted to the largest bearing I.D 2.00075  which yields .003 clearance
The minimum main bearing clearance would be the maximum shaft 1.998 fitted to the minimum bearing I.D. 1.99975 which yields ,00175

The maximum rod bearing clearance is the minimum pin 2.4975 fitted to a maximum shell 2.5005 or  .003
The minimum rod bearing clearance is the maximum pin 2.498 fitted to a minimum shell 2.4995  or .0015
I
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 05, 2015, 08:51:55 PM
Thanks for the input on the sizes and tolerances dieselgman and 38c. I think I now have everything I need.

______________________________________________________________________________________

My next venture is to fix the main bearing.

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/7eac/cw87782m9298bm14g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/cw87782m9298bm1/20150517_162034.jpg)

After inquiring about the types and availability of babbit, I was given a 2kg chunk of W.M.40 babbit to play with.
Nothing to loose, so lets see how it turns out:

I made a core with a 1 degree draw. Plenty undersize to make the pour easier. The collar is to pour the trust face. (Also with a draw)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d0ce/dtbvsqjypaqacsc4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/dtbvsqjypaqacsc/20150605_151059.jpg)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/14d6/lbcmr8ztpg4xbmr4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/lbcmr8ztpg4xbmr/20150605_154043.jpg)

Old babbit melted out:
The bore and thrust face retained their tinning nicely.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/ee69/3xk44dmiegbmj5z4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/3xk44dmiegbmj5z/20150605_153526.jpg)

Collar in place:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/2547/k2fnjghfegwkgbr4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/k2fnjghfegwkgbr/20150605_173155.jpg)

A piece of shimstock wrapped around the bush has 3 purposes:
1 - Hold the collar in position.
2 - Close off the oil holes.
3 - Extend the OD of the bush so the babbit will be longer to allow for machining.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d4b7/x9jshzve5p8c71u4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/x9jshzve5p8c71u/20150605_173201.jpg)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/7a6c/161acfrmg1z63qh4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/161acfrmg1z63qh/20150605_173225.jpg)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/f3be/d1zkycakl14b7xi4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/d1zkycakl14b7xi/20150605_161316.jpg)

Heating up everything before doing the pour
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/bf5a/g6ak8f2hap9y8dh4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/g6ak8f2hap9y8dh/20150605_173904.jpg)

Pour done:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9339/wuad7uk18gj001k4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/wuad7uk18gj001k/20150605_174444.jpg)

Core and collar removed. One can see how the length and thrust face was cast oversize to allow for machining.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/7148/vutm7ub8t71n3844g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/vutm7ub8t71n384/20150605_182257.jpg)

I'll see if I can get the bush in the lathe tomorrow. The proof to see how successful the pour really turned out will be when I machine it...
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 07, 2015, 08:11:50 PM
The second casting also came out nice. Before casting this one I had to catch the first one's shavings and make a thicker core. The first one was very thirsty for molten babbit. 

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/3e8d/b7970n0zf9v9xku4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/b7970n0zf9v9xku/20150607_100810.jpg)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6ace/agjs2bphxhes82f4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/agjs2bphxhes82f/20150607_103002.jpg)

While machining I caught the shavings in a cloth - it's very easy to get the shaving contaminated so I won't recommend doing this.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9667/8w44d8nbwn6v8qn4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/8w44d8nbwn6v8qn/20150606_152004.jpg)

It took a very long time to get the taper and diameter right - but I got it perfect.
TIP: Don't ever hone or sand babbit. Because the babbit is so soft, very fine abrasive particles can become embedded in the babbit surface.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/eebe/jlpht9anwh3p3rd4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/jlpht9anwh3p3rd/20150606_142043.jpg)

Cutting oil groove:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c616/evvcy6sq42v0scf4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/evvcy6sq42v0scf/20150607_170146.jpg)

ALL DONE!!
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9a9b/ajaivw380sb852p4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/ajaivw380sb852p/20150607_191606.jpg)

The bores are crank dia +0.04mm = 50.77mm
Flanges are 9mm. My worn bush measured thicker than a new one, so I erred on the safe side and made it 0.8mm thicker than what it was. I can always shim the housings or machine the faces again after measuring the crank end-float.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on June 07, 2015, 08:57:14 PM
Impressive work!  I know I would never have that much patience unless there was no alternative part available.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: M61hops on June 07, 2015, 11:04:10 PM
Great job, Dieselsmoker, I like your style!  To me the ability to repair bushed mains makes them preferable to the roller bearing type.  What would be the worst that could happen if the bush bearings were turned from brass or aluminium ?  Would the hardness wear out the crankshaft metal?  ???                   Leland
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 08, 2015, 09:59:45 AM
Impressive work!  I know I would never have that much patience unless there was no alternative part available.

dieselgman

Thank you dieselgman. Had this not been a hobby and also a platform for experimenting with processes like the babbit pouring I always read about, I tend to agree. Patience is not my problem, time is - luckily I don't have a deadline so it works out okay. Also, I have been warned by how many people that a Lister rebuild will probably turn into a money pit and so far I don't see any of that.

Great job, Dieselsmoker, I like your style!  To me the ability to repair bushed mains makes them preferable to the roller bearing type.  What would be the worst that could happen if the bush bearings were turned from brass or aluminium ?  Would the hardness wear out the crankshaft metal?  ???                   Leland

Thank you Leland. It's a well known fact that the correct aluminium- and brass alloys works very successful as bearing material. In this instance the application is the problem. With any bearing material other than babbit, uninterrupted preferably pressurized lubrication is required for a highly loaded bearing like this. Babbit has the advantage that when the bearing overheats for whatever reason (like the lack of lubrication), the babbit will melt and continue to lubricate and protect the shaft from damage. A failing white metal bearing usually gives pleeenty warning before it gives up. It will knock and smoke and moan and still work, but other bearings go out with a bang. Scroll back a few posts in this thread and have a look at the bearing I took out. It's totally scrap and not a single mark on the crank! Had this been a brass bushing the crank would have been toast along with the bearing...
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration (with a difference)
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 16, 2015, 10:52:41 AM
I'm busy putting the crank in, and I suddenly realised that I have no idea what the end float tolerance is. Someone suggested 0.005" to 0.010"?
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: 38ac on June 16, 2015, 01:24:46 PM
Yes, the spec for end float is .005-.010.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 17, 2015, 09:01:46 AM
Yes, the spec for end float is .005-.010.

Boy am I glad I made the sleeve bearing thrust faces a bit thicker otherwise I would have ended up with very little room for adjustment... There are two paper gaskets behind each housing. Not sure how thick they are though. I have to take the housings off again to put the felt rings in when they arrive through the mail one day...  >:(, and then I'll measure the gaskets. The rest of my weekend I spend cleaning all the fasteners and I have 90% of the gaskets made. I think I only have the barrel- and water jacket cover gaskets left to make.

Busy cleaning the crank. Painted with Glyptal.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/da30/pyea5hoae556r9m4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/pyea5hoae556r9m/20150613_151128.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on July 05, 2015, 07:04:58 PM
Been moving slow the last couple of weeks. The kitchen's new ceiling is almost in, so in about two weeks time this job should pic up momentum again.

I received my parts from SEP. Took almost 5 weeks to get it. I'm not saying a word about the postal system  :-X I'm just glad I got it.
Breather plate
Taper pins
Felt seals for crank
Gudgeon pin
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/0735/sntlfdx9o9173by4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/sntlfdx9o9173by/20150702_182843.jpg)

Crank in. New felt seals fitted.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/be34/nsvu82xcnb7gm9l4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/nsvu82xcnb7gm9l/20150705_174305.jpg)

I'm a little disappointed with the taper pins. They are way oversize. In this picture the pins are hammered in hard.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/7f51/nlshhdmx4mdhfgj4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/nlshhdmx4mdhfgj/20150703_162451.jpg)

Here you can see the pins just-just go through the shaft.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/8e99/k62irbdmdrrw5us4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/k62irbdmdrrw5us/20150703_162501.jpg)

Getting other pins is not an option, so I'll have to ream the holes a bit. What is the taper used for these pins?
 
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on July 05, 2015, 07:24:05 PM
Those should be #6 taper pins and are readily available from us or from McMaster Carr in the USA. The proper taper reamer is also available.  If you purchased Indian product, then sizing data is unreliable - as might be expected.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on July 05, 2015, 07:45:02 PM
Those should be #6 taper pins and are readily available from us or from McMaster Carr in the USA. The proper taper reamer is also available.  If you purchased Indian product, then sizing data is unreliable - as might be expected.

dieselgman

Yip... proudly Indian.

Looks like a 1/4" per FT taper?

Update:
It is a 1/4" per FT or 1:48 taper.
Reamer is 3/8" nominal diameter.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on July 09, 2015, 07:56:02 PM
Quick update: New sleeve is in.
I was at first concerned about the sleeve creeping down the barrel, but there was already a plan in place. This is probably common practice, but for those who have not seen this themselves, I put this picture up. The bore was machined oversize to accept the sleeve, but not all the way through. If you look closely you can see the line where the lead stops and the parallel bore starts.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9e98/w4zo7ohwsyimx4c4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/w4zo7ohwsyimx4c/20150707_171711.jpg)

Top of the barrel skimmed.
Nice hone pattern and zero taper. Impressive workmanship in my opinion.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/a512/rsbcjokjdb5u4di4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/rsbcjokjdb5u4di/20150707_171750.jpg)

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on July 13, 2015, 08:03:24 PM
Got the reamer! 3/8"  (1:48)
(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=14262&g2_serialNumber=2)

Put my ratchet tapping tool on the reamer. Added some cutting oil and done! Nice to have the right tools.  8)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/f2da/bd3qi6mqab0uqqq4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/bd3qi6mqab0uqqq/20150713_192725.jpg)

The pins still needs to be driven in hard and then I'll grind the excess away to prevent interference with the cam follower.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/ab46/x9fk2iukrhthjbl4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/x9fk2iukrhthjbl/20150713_192821.jpg)

The original dowels were peened, but I don't think that is really necessary. They'll never come loose.
       
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on July 13, 2015, 10:43:57 PM
That i.p. cam lobe looks to be pretty rough and pitted... is it just the surface needing polishing? Or do you need a new lobe?

Looks like you have those pins fitting nicely now! Good work!

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on July 14, 2015, 03:02:41 PM
That i.p. cam lobe looks to be pretty rough and pitted... is it just the surface needing polishing? Or do you need a new lobe?

Looks like you have those pins fitting nicely now! Good work!

dieselgman

Hi.
Thanks. This camshaft assembly is the single item I've spend the most time on during this rebuild. Great to see it this close to being fitted back into the engine block to make it do some work again.
The lobe is a little pitted, but the surface is mostly smooth so it should be okay. - I'll polish it up and see how it turns out.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on July 24, 2015, 08:53:21 PM
Oil pump overall:
I took some extra pictures for someone elsewhere on the forum who had trouble figuring out how to remove the seal.

Pump stripped:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/7ff7/t4in87f4f4c7b124g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/t4in87f4f4c7b12/20150724_151637.jpg)

Original seal in position:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6337/bvbvw1rt5gsb98x4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/bvbvw1rt5gsb98x/20150724_151659.jpg)

I pushed the screwdriver in under the metal collar and levered it upwards until flush with the pump body.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/ae66/3y0u509i0xr7ngm4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/3y0u509i0xr7ngm/20150724_152021.jpg)

The last bit was done by increasing the lever's travel with a wooden block:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/ff03/9b7zf3bjve93q8p4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/9b7zf3bjve93q8p/20150724_152153.jpg)

New seal:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6061/drmo52rb425axm94g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/drmo52rb425axm9/20150724_151726.jpg)

New seal in greased up and driven in position:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/bf02/n93pviyvz2ib9k64g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/n93pviyvz2ib9k6/20150724_152918.jpg)

Pump trial fitted:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/719f/11xc5qbdnhxicmi4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/11xc5qbdnhxicmi/20150724_155405.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: TxBlacksmith on July 24, 2015, 10:14:57 PM
Nicely done!  ;) What did you clean your brass parts with?
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on July 26, 2015, 06:45:18 PM
Nicely done!  ;) What did you clean your brass parts with?

Thanks.
Almost all the cleaning as you see it here was done mechanically. I have an assortment of rotary and hand wire brushes I use. The pump body I soaked in Lacquer thinners for a while before brushing it and the paint came off real easy. I don't think I'll spend any more time polishing the brass, but it might be a good idea to put some clear coat on to preserve the shiny finish.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on July 26, 2015, 07:45:46 PM
This weekend I assembled some finished parts to the engine and then I tackled the broken fuel filter cover.

Compulsory: DC Welding machine and nickel welding rods.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/36f0/ps08kn7hkpe16j04g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/ps08kn7hkpe16j0/20150725_151938.jpg)

Weld prep - Ground in and then dressed with a hand file. Never good practice to weld cast iron on a ground surface. The prep could have been a little deeper, but my plan was to braze the cover before I realized my brazing rods were finished. This is a low stress joint so I wasn't too concerned to get full penetration.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6542/lv4mq1wi16q9zmt4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/lv4mq1wi16q9zmt/20150725_145718.jpg)

Welding in progress.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/5583/lb5cwxyl1vtqs5h4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/lb5cwxyl1vtqs5h/20150725_152348.jpg)

All done and freshly painted:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/5712/epg5yfb4dacy4904g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/epg5yfb4dacy490/20150726_192658.jpg)

 ;D ;D ;D It's starting to look like an engine!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on August 09, 2015, 07:20:57 PM
It was time to make a plan with the Diesel filter. I saw elsewhere on the forum that cartridge filters are the way to go. Thanks for the tip! I dug around in the garage and found some suitable material to make my own version.

Parts made up:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/562c/bgj04v1vqrj94wk4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/bgj04v1vqrj94wk/20150808_101518.jpg)

Assembled:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/dbf2/vtos37cmc7mwxp54g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/vtos37cmc7mwxp5/20150808_101614.jpg)

The injector pipe was a real mess and I managed to break it where it had a braze joint. I paid our local Diesel service centre a visit (Supreme Diesel Injection), and I was given a used pipe of the correct length. The owner was very interested and impressed with the project and he was only too glad to help.

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d9bb/qxfa2397nm2f2ut4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/qxfa2397nm2f2ut/20150731_152506.jpg)

Pipe Fitted:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/22b1/xies5dt5uf7ceiv4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/xies5dt5uf7ceiv/20150731_165403.jpg)


The last bit of the assembly went so well that the tappets, timing and everything else was adjusted and in place in a very short time. I assembled the engine with the old rings (minus the bottom oil ring that I broke). Before I knew it, there the engine was standing ------ ready to start! I had no intention of starting it, but when I reached this point I simply couldn't help myself to try!
Second attempt cranking it this happened:

https://youtu.be/iPHZ_23Kmew (https://youtu.be/iPHZ_23Kmew)

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

WHAT AN AWESOME FEELING!!!!!

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on August 09, 2015, 08:24:26 PM
A can of oil? (or is it a can of worms?)
I put some serious effort into sourcing non-detergent engine oil, but it tuned out fruitless. I got bombarded with questions of why I want THAT oil and then reasons why I shouldn't be using it - all of them uneducated opinions of course. The product is simply not available any longer off the shelve. Apparently engine oil additive packages that exclude detergent is not produced any longer. We have two companies in town who blend their own products from base oils, and the one really tried to help me out, but I'm not tooo sure if I can trust his advice. As the head of the R&D department he had to go research way to many questions I threw at him...  

These are my options at this point in time:
They have a low end Petrol / Diesel oil.  API SF/CF. (This is the only product they have with viscosity SAE 30)
The additive package consists of: Extreme Pressure, Anti Wear, Corrosion Inhibitor, Anti-Oxidant and Detergent (low detergent).

To get away from the detergent I can use an oil blended for certain hydraulic systems. It is also a blend of Base 1 oils.
The additive package consists of: Corrosion Inhibitor, Anti-Oxidant and some Anti-Wear.
Viscosity is ISO 100 which is closely equivalent to SAE 30.

I walked away with the detergent oil... I wish I could determine what the API grade of the non-engine oil was. I'm afraid to sacrifice anti-wear properties for the sake of losing the detergent. At first I'll do frequent oil changes and maybe then look into adding an oil filter?

There is also a gear oil with EP that should perform quite well, but I'm afraid that the sulfur and phosphorous EP additives will eat away at the brass oil pump and camshaft bush. The other problem with non-engine oils are the lack of, or low concentration of CI and AO...

Am I worrying about the oil specification too much? In theory it is quite clear what the lubricant requirements and reasons therefore are, but can anyone testify of actual experience (good or bad)?

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on August 10, 2015, 01:07:56 AM
Beautiful job on the restoration!  Sounds very sweet.

Some of us Listeroid owners have been using detergent oils and have thousands of hours without troubles, including myself. 

I was having trouble with spalling of the upper big connecting bearing initially, but this was solved by going to a solid upper bearing (no oil grooves) and a hollow dipper.  The problem may have just been the typical Rajkot bearing quality and nothing more.


Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Hugh Conway on August 10, 2015, 01:50:18 AM
Dieselsmoker:
I am one of those who switched over from straight non detergent oil to a detergent oil in my listeroid. I have many small engines around the homestead, they all specify detergent oil and none have filters, seemed like if a modern Honda or such can run detergent, then a very forgiving slow-speed engine can do it as well. I have added a filter to the listeroid. Got it from SEP; the cost was reasonable and replacement cartridges are available from your local NAPA dealer.
Details on a previous post.
I have recently refurbished my Dursley 6/1, and will be using detergent oil in it as well. I believe later Dursley manuals specified detergent oil, but don't quote me there.
I am using up the remainder of my 5 gallon pail of straight 30 wt to oil the valve springs and push-rods.
Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: AdeV on August 10, 2015, 12:21:37 PM
One option to consider is to add an external oil pump & filter; simply feed from the sump, run through the filter, back into the sump. When the engine is running, you'll filter all of the oil regularly, and even with it not running you'll filter 99%. Keep a weather eye on the state of the filter (unless you go for a spin-on type that you can't easily examine).
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: richardhula on August 10, 2015, 02:26:56 PM
Dieselsmoker:
I am one of those who switched over from straight non detergent oil to a detergent oil in my listeroid. I have many small engines around the homestead, they all specify detergent oil and none have filters, seemed like if a modern Honda or such can run detergent, then a very forgiving slow-speed engine can do it as well. I have added a filter to the listeroid. Got it from SEP; the cost was reasonable and replacement cartridges are available from your local NAPA dealer.
Details on a previous post.
I have recently refurbished my Dursley 6/1, and will be using detergent oil in it as well. I believe later Dursley manuals specified detergent oil, but don't quote me there.
I am using up the remainder of my 5 gallon pail of straight 30 wt to oil the valve springs and push-rods.
Cheers,
Hugh

Temper your thoughts with the fact that old slow revving engines without full flow oil filtration rely on the non or low detergent (API CD or lower) oil allowing metal particles as a result of normal wear and tear dropping out of harms to the bottom of the sump. Hence provision to mop out the sump from time to time. Higher detergent oils used in engines with full flow oil filtration effectively encapsulate these same small particles and so allow them to be carried in the oil to be trapped by the filter. Clearly if there were allowed to pass through engine bearing surfaces time and again it would not be conducive to engine longevity.

Remember also the old misconception that modern detergent oils were not around when Lister first built diesels, but would have recommended the latest detergent oils nowadays, carries no weight. They certainly never recommended such with any of their engines that didn't have full filtration.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: TxBlacksmith on August 10, 2015, 05:59:02 PM
Here is a source in the U.S.  I haven't tried it, but a friend of mine has used it in his hit and miss engines..

http://www.ruralking.com/oil-harvest-king-30wt-n-d-2-gal.html?utm_medium=cpc&tum_source=bing&utm_campaign=%28roi%29+agriculture+-+shopping&utm_content=agriculture+shopping (http://www.ruralking.com/oil-harvest-king-30wt-n-d-2-gal.html?utm_medium=cpc&tum_source=bing&utm_campaign=%28roi%29+agriculture+-+shopping&utm_content=agriculture+shopping)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on August 11, 2015, 08:46:41 PM
Beautiful job on the restoration!  Sounds very sweet.
Some of us Listeroid owners have been using detergent oils and have thousands of hours without troubles, including myself. 
I was having trouble with spalling of the upper big connecting bearing initially, but this was solved by going to a solid upper bearing (no oil grooves) and a hollow dipper.  The problem may have just been the typical Rajkot bearing quality and nothing more.
Thanks BruceM. Yes the engine sound very nice. I just need to get an exhaust silencer to get rid of the loud barking - Next a cooling tank so I don't have to shut it down!

Dieselsmoker:
I am one of those who switched over from straight non detergent oil to a detergent oil in my listeroid. I have many small engines around the homestead, they all specify detergent oil and none have filters, seemed like if a modern Honda or such can run detergent, then a very forgiving slow-speed engine can do it as well. I have added a filter to the listeroid. Got it from SEP; the cost was reasonable and replacement cartridges are available from your local NAPA dealer.
Details on a previous post.
I have recently refurbished my Dursley 6/1, and will be using detergent oil in it as well. I believe later Dursley manuals specified detergent oil, but don't quote me there.
I am using up the remainder of my 5 gallon pail of straight 30 wt to oil the valve springs and push-rods.
Cheers,
Hugh
I have a copy of one of the newer manuals and it does specify detergent oil. This exact specification is what made me wonder just HOW serious the oil issue is. I have absolutely no experience with non-detergent oil and I would be very interested to see how soon, and how much sludge would form in the engine. I also own small air cooled petrol engines that has been run on high detergent oils all their life. My Briggs & Stratton 5HP is a 1979 model that still mows the lawn twice a week year in and year out... I do however believe that regular oil changes did the trick.

One option to consider is to add an external oil pump & filter; simply feed from the sump, run through the filter, back into the sump. When the engine is running, you'll filter all of the oil regularly, and even with it not running you'll filter 99%. Keep a weather eye on the state of the filter (unless you go for a spin-on type that you can't easily examine).
This is a great idea to achieve maximum filtration capacity. Maybe something to consider for someone who works the engine relentlessly and wants maximum life from the engine.

Temper your thoughts with the fact that old slow revving engines without full flow oil filtration rely on the non or low detergent (API CD or lower) oil allowing metal particles as a result of normal wear and tear dropping out of harms to the bottom of the sump. Hence provision to mop out the sump from time to time. Higher detergent oils used in engines with full flow oil filtration effectively encapsulate these same small particles and so allow them to be carried in the oil to be trapped by the filter. Clearly if there were allowed to pass through engine bearing surfaces time and again it would not be conducive to engine longevity.

Remember also the old misconception that modern detergent oils were not around when Lister first built diesels, but would have recommended the latest detergent oils nowadays, carries no weight. They certainly never recommended such with any of their engines that didn't have full filtration.
I fully agree with the non-detergent theory BUT: I have a 1970 Lister CS instruction book that states: "The engine must be run on good quality diesel engine heavy duty detergent lubricating oil." There might however be a catch in the wording as the specification is "MIL-L-2104A", MIL-L-2104A  detergent oil is a very old spec - a comparison to a modern oil might be interesting.

Here is a source in the U.S.  I haven't tried it, but a friend of mine has used it in his hit and miss engines..

http://www.ruralking.com/oil-harvest-king-30wt-n-d-2-gal.html?utm_medium=cpc&tum_source=bing&utm_campaign=%28roi%29+agriculture+-+shopping&utm_content=agriculture+shopping (http://www.ruralking.com/oil-harvest-king-30wt-n-d-2-gal.html?utm_medium=cpc&tum_source=bing&utm_campaign=%28roi%29+agriculture+-+shopping&utm_content=agriculture+shopping)
Nice to have these products available off the shelve. I'll follow the link and see what I can find out regarding the specifications.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: richardhula on August 11, 2015, 11:44:42 PM

Temper your thoughts with the fact that old slow revving engines without full flow oil filtration rely on the non or low detergent (API CD or lower) oil allowing metal particles as a result of normal wear and tear dropping out of harms to the bottom of the sump. Hence provision to mop out the sump from time to time. Higher detergent oils used in engines with full flow oil filtration effectively encapsulate these same small particles and so allow them to be carried in the oil to be trapped by the filter. Clearly if there were allowed to pass through engine bearing surfaces time and again it would not be conducive to engine longevity.

Remember also the old misconception that modern detergent oils were not around when Lister first built diesels, but would have recommended the latest detergent oils nowadays, carries no weight. They certainly never recommended such with any of their engines that didn't have full filtration.
I fully agree with the non-detergent theory BUT: I have a 1970 Lister CS instruction book that states: "The engine must be run on good quality diesel engine heavy duty detergent lubricating oil." There might however be a catch in the wording as the specification is "MIL-L-2104A", MIL-L-2104A  detergent oil is a very old spec - a comparison to a modern oil might be interesting.


The MIL-L-2104A spec you mention is equivalent to API CA, the very lowest detergency in this range introduced in 1954. Ironically its suggested use was for light duty engines. API CC or CD spec although also superceeded many years ago, are listed for heavy duty use. I think the term detergent mentioned in your instruction book was relative to that available at the time it was first printed, all these oils being regarded as low detergent nowadays.

In the UK such oils are readily available from several different suppliers. Straight grade Morris Golden Film (http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/golden-film-sae-30-classic-motor-oil.html) (API CC/SD, MIL-L-2104B) is the most popular choice though for use in Lister diesels without full flow filtration. I'm sure a search for classic motor oils would reveal many sources in the US. Note that API specs are prefixed by C for compression and S for spark ignition engines.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on August 17, 2015, 01:19:19 PM
Governor
The governor linkages are now being overhauled, and I'm very close to zero play at this stage. I'll post some pictures of what I did when I'm done. I need a governor spring... I can import one from S.E.P. later, but that is weeks away from happening. In the meantime I'll check what the hardware store has. Any idea how to check for the correct pull strength?

Cooling the 6/1
I've had my eyes open for a while now for a cooling tank. I can't find anything I like, and I'll probably end up with a plain old 209 Liter steel drum... (46 UK Gal)
Ambient temperatures range between sub zero degree C in winter and easily reach 35+ degree C (95+ degree F) in summer. From what I read, the 209 L drum is supposed to be the correct size tank? ....it's just so big... the unit will be trolley mounted and I can only imagine how heavy the whole set will be when it's finished.

How much water capacity is needed when the unit is worked hard for say 12 hours? Should I stick with the 209 L? I don't actually have a plan B other than maybe making the drum a little shorter?
I should anyway also look at fitting a thermostat. I think it will take hours to put some heat in all that water? (unless the flow is restricted to allow the engine to warm up?)

The 209L drum next to the 6/1 looks way out of proportion. This can make sense for prolonged unattended  operation, but not for standby and display use especially when portability is a factor.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/fc85/sm9zbgaosqcb69z4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/sm9zbgaosqcb69z/20150818_174151.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on August 17, 2015, 07:20:49 PM
Where freezing is a concern, many of us find it is more practical to use a radiator; much less expense on antifreeze.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Hugh Conway on August 18, 2015, 11:17:19 PM

@Dieselsmoker

Re: Gov spring. Check WOK at the top of the forum.
Springs mentioned there seem to do the job really well. I am still able to hold 1Hz difference between no load and full load of 3200 Watts (60.4Hz-59.4Hz).  Available at Home Depot for small money, and works better (much better) than the OEM spring on my Dursley Startomatic.
The yoke at the pump rack needs some slop to overcome binding due to geometry of the linkage.

Cooling: I am using a 30 gallon boiler tank which takes hours to reach a stable temperature under load. Have run as much as 8 hours without getting too hot in moderate OAT conditions.
As BruceM says, antifreeze is costly. And the antifreeze needs changing after a time, again costly and difficult to dispose of properly. I am converting to an old fashioned cast iron radiator that a friend kindly gave me. Drastically reduces antifreeze quantity requirement. In the "old days" of listeroids, I recall G. Breckenridge used one of these cast iron rads to cool his 6/1 test engine with great success. A bit hard to come by though.

Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on August 19, 2015, 10:08:26 AM
Where freezing is a concern, many of us find it is more practical to use a radiator; much less expense on antifreeze.
Hi Bruce. Valid point - I am however more inclined to using a tank due to it's simplicity and authentic look..


@Dieselsmoker

Re: Gov spring. Check WOK at the top of the forum.
Springs mentioned there seem to do the job really well. I am still able to hold 1Hz difference between no load and full load of 3200 Watts (60.4Hz-59.4Hz).  Available at Home Depot for small money, and works better (much better) than the OEM spring on my Dursley Startomatic.
The yoke at the pump rack needs some slop to overcome binding due to geometry of the linkage.

Cooling: I am using a 30 gallon boiler tank which takes hours to reach a stable temperature under load. Have run as much as 8 hours without getting too hot in moderate OAT conditions.
As BruceM says, antifreeze is costly. And the antifreeze needs changing after a time, again costly and difficult to dispose of properly. I am converting to an old fashioned cast iron radiator that a friend kindly gave me. Drastically reduces antifreeze quantity requirement. In the "old days" of listeroids, I recall G. Breckenridge used one of these cast iron rads to cool his 6/1 test engine with great success. A bit hard to come by though.

Cheers,
Hugh

Hi Hugh.
Thanks, I'll go read up in the WOK on the spring and see what I can find. I'm about 5000 miles away from the nearest Home Depot, but I'm sure I'll figure this one out with some experimentation.

Regarding the tank size... I phoned the company I bought the huge massive colossal tank from, and they have a 50 Liter tank I will go look at later.
50L = 11 UK gal or 13 US gal. Any thoughts on how well that will work?

That 220 L drum will make a nice storage container behind the garage for my firewood.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: 38ac on August 19, 2015, 11:40:58 AM
As you have found  tank cooling is not going to be a great set up if you want cooling under all conditions plus portability. I had a 6/1 that we took to shows and to place some load on it we ran a generator head and pulled a couple fans.  Cooling was provided by a 15 gallon tank which provided the look yet saved weight and bulk. That engine would go 4 hours or so on hot days or all day during cool weather. Sold that engine in a weak moment but have pictures of a similar set up with a 6/1 Listeroid  if you care to see them.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on August 19, 2015, 03:17:51 PM
As you have found  tank cooling is not going to be a great set up if you want cooling under all conditions plus portability. I had a 6/1 that we took to shows and to place some load on it we ran a generator head and pulled a couple fans.  Cooling was provided by a 15 gallon tank which provided the look yet saved weight and bulk. That engine would go 4 hours or so on hot days or all day during cool weather. Sold that engine in a weak moment but have pictures of a similar set up with a 6/1 Listeroid  if you care to see them.

With the lower capacity I can consider using antifreeze. That said, the engine will live indoors so freezing should never be a problem and if the threat exists I will simply drain the coolant from the engine.
I will NEVER say no to engine pics!  ;D
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Jordan on August 19, 2015, 05:38:47 PM
I just looked up the drawing that Lister made of a Start-O-Matic CS1 installed in a masonary shed.
The cooling tank, also in the shed, is even bigger than a standard "200 litre" drum.
The diameter is similar at 23 inches, but the height is 47 inches, compared to normal drum at 34.5 inches.
It gives a capacity approaching 320 litres, about a third greater. That's about 70 imperial gallons, or 84 US gallons.

It seems to be the factory recommedation, but there are some puzzling aspects.
Like, isn't there such a thing as over-cooling?
And, where does the heat go, when it does eventually build up?
There's no fan, and it's inside an enclosed place, presumably (for silence).

Like the exhaust system, I'm baffled.

Jordan
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: TxBlacksmith on August 19, 2015, 09:06:44 PM
Nice looking engine!  ;D  Anybody got a pic of the type of cast iron radiator you are talking about? 
Is this like the old room warming radiators?
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Hugh Conway on August 19, 2015, 10:23:28 PM
TxBlacksmith....here is a link to a vid from 2010. shows George B's simple set-up with a cast iron radiator. |My radiator has about double this amount of fins (9) so should work fine.   http://www.utterpower.com/new-videos-on-the-way-heres-the-pumphouse-in-hd/

Dieselsmoker.........In South Africda, you are indeed far away from a Home Depot. Here in Canada, the HD stores do not carry that spring either, so I had a friend in the U.S.  buy and send one to me. Perhaps someone on the forum who lives in the U.S. would send you one. They most definately work.

Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on August 20, 2015, 01:14:31 PM
I just looked up the drawing that Lister made of a Start-O-Matic CS1 installed in a masonary shed.
The cooling tank, also in the shed, is even bigger than a standard "200 litre" drum.
The diameter is similar at 23 inches, but the height is 47 inches, compared to normal drum at 34.5 inches.
It gives a capacity approaching 320 litres, about a third greater. That's about 70 imperial gallons, or 84 US gallons.

It seems to be the factory recommedation, but there are some puzzling aspects.
Like, isn't there such a thing as over-cooling?
And, where does the heat go, when it does eventually build up?
There's no fan, and it's inside an enclosed place, presumably (for silence).

Like the exhaust system, I'm baffled.

Jordan
Hi Jordan.
The big tank starts to make sense if one looks at the run times 38ac mentioned. I'll see if I can go and have a look at the 50L drum tomorrow. If it's suitable for use as a cooling tank I'll try it. For powering the house, loading of the engine will be intermittent, so we'll see if i'ts got enough cooling capacity.
Over cooling: for sure. That's why the thermostat was such a great invention! Without a thermostat one will have to monitor the engine temperature and manually restrict the water flow.
The tank's surface will radiate a great amount of heat - I've seen copper cooling tanks before on stationary engines. Imagine that.... but the biggest heat shedding device is the evaporation of the hot water. On the hopper cooled engines the water is SUPPOSED to boil to get rid of the heat - hence the reason one should never add any anti-freeze/anti-boil in a hopper cooled engine. .

Nice looking engine!  ;D  Anybody got a pic of the type of cast iron radiator you are talking about? 
Is this like the old room warming radiators?
Thank you!

TxBlacksmith....here is a link to a vid from 2010. shows George B's simple set-up with a cast iron radiator. |My radiator has about double this amount of fins (9) so should work fine.   http://www.utterpower.com/new-videos-on-the-way-heres-the-pumphouse-in-hd/

Dieselsmoker.........In South Africa, you are indeed far away from a Home Depot. Here in Canada, the HD stores do not carry that spring either, so I had a friend in the U.S.  buy and send one to me. Perhaps someone on the forum who lives in the U.S. would send you one. They most definately work.

Cheers,
Hugh
I've never been keen on a radiator's looks but THAT looks GREAT!!
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Tom on August 20, 2015, 06:04:00 PM
Jordan, my CS6/1 is setup with a cooling tank made from a 40 gal electric water heater tank. Even with a thermostat installed on the engine a valve needed to be installed on the lower hose to prevent gulping which caused large temp swings while the tank was warming up. Once the valve is set the temp regulates perfectly in all conditions (at least the ones I've encountered). I believe you will find a valve in the lower hose of most tank cooled Lister installations.

Once the tank is warm a massive heat is dissipated via evaporation and if necessary boiling. I've never seen my tank boil, but it will evaporate several inches of water in a hard day's use. Now my system circulates the cooling water through the floor of the house, but the tank is still in the circuit and used for cooling in the summer when the heat is not needed in the house.

Here's a pic of the install before the valve was added. The valve replaced the coupling in the lower hose.
(http://programmertom.com/lister/tank.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: 32 coupe on August 20, 2015, 09:12:12 PM
I just bought a Honda radiator with a 12" electric fan with shipping on Ebay for $60.00

They work great for the Lister type engines and I have this setup on 2 engines currently.

Keeps the antifreeze to a minimum and an easy setup.

I went to the local auto parts store and looked through the radiator hoses untill
I found sections I could use.

I run 195 degree thermostat and an adjustable temperature fan switch I purchased
at the auto parts store. The switch is a generic one.

I don't known if this will help but it makes a simple, fool proof system.

Just my 2 cents. ....

Gary


Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: mike90045 on August 21, 2015, 06:20:36 AM
To install the thermostat, most engines will accept a NAPA thermostat #253 & you may have to grind out the housing to accept it.  Took me about 3 days and 2 stones to get my head and housing ground out using a cordless drill.   And on the thermostat, you drill a 1/16 hole in the flapper near the top edge to let it seep a bit and help purge air.  Then I stacked a bunch of gaskets up to fill in the gaps.  Gasket for stacking on the thermostat water fitting   NAPA 1038-ST

I use a 25 gal gas tank (scrap) with a couple fittings for radiator hoses, and let it thermosiphon.  Works well, at about 2,600w load,  the tank gets to 180F on a cool rainy day in 90 minutes,
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on August 23, 2015, 04:55:13 PM
Thanks for all the inputs and suggestions from everybody. It's good to learn from other's experience.

So I got the 50 Liter drum. Looks a lot more portable!
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/469c/ub2ofhfq0jw2ah04g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/ub2ofhfq0jw2ah0/20150821_143306.jpg)

I marked off the holes and opened them up to accept the brass fittings. Surface ground clean in preparation for silver solder.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/1ea6/56gq7at3goq543e4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/56gq7at3goq543e/20150822_160646.jpg)

25mm Brass fitting:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/36dc/gie8uvbpccxwmn54g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/gie8uvbpccxwmn5/20150822_160707.jpg)

Fitting is a nice snug fit in the hole:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/187e/aa7wi4xh69b7r8e4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/aa7wi4xh69b7r8e/20150822_160713.jpg)

Engine running with cooling!!
I dug in my "box of pipes" and found perfectly suitable radiator hoses I replaced years ago on a VW I had.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/0546/e94nmr81fwnunmn4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/e94nmr81fwnunmn/20150822_172259.jpg)

The Lister water valve was a solid piece of rust. It took some heat and 4 lbs hammer to get it apart. After cleaning I lapped the valve with some valve lapping paste.
The drum and valve was trial assembled onto the engine to see how (and if) it works. After sorting the engine framework, the valve and the tank will go green.

I'm toying with the idea to mount the alternator underneath the cooling tank to reduce the footprint of the genset. Mounting it this close to the engine will slightly reduce the contact area the belt will have on the alternator pulley, but will it be significant enough to worry about?
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: M61hops on August 23, 2015, 07:05:06 PM
Hi Dieselsmoker.  It will probably work OK to move the gen head closer to the drive flywheel.  I'd put it as close as you want but keep in mind that you might want to add an idler wheel to increase contact.  Or you could use the idler to tension the belt?  Smaller footprint could be a good thing!
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Hugh Conway on August 23, 2015, 09:26:04 PM
@Dieselsmoker
"I'm toying with the idea to mount the alternator underneath the cooling tank to reduce the footprint of the genset. Mounting it this close to the engine will slightly reduce the contact area the belt will have on the alternator pulley, but will it be significant enough to worry about?"

M61hops has a good idea with the idler. On the down side, it does add something else to malfunction. I have my gen on the exhaust side with good clearance. Even so, the belt chirps whith a heavy load and damp air. (my gen set is outside, but under a roof, in the Pacific N.W.  Everything gets damp in winter.

I would be reluctant to put a tank of water above my generator. Creates a potential problem. A leaky hose or.......could be expensive.

Also, there is the issue of restricting  access to the inspection cover on that side of the engine.

Unless you really need the room, IMHO, better to keep the generator in its original Dursley position on the exhaust side of the engine.

Nice work there, looks great!

Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on January 10, 2016, 06:56:43 PM
Hi Guys.
It's been a while since I did any work on my project. Life got in the way but I need to get going again.

There are a couple of things still on my restoration to-do list.
First task: Build a trolley so I can move this thing! I've started cutting the material over the weekend. I'll post some pics as soon as it starts taking shape.

The other day I was standing in the bathroom brushing my teeth when I saw right in front of me the best container ever for topping up the Diesel when I occasionally start the engine.
LISTERine for a fresh smelling exhaust!  :laugh: :laugh:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/896e/49ghv38bhsyf4h74g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/49ghv38bhsyf4h7/20150829_164140.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: TxBlacksmith on January 10, 2016, 10:09:41 PM
A nice close up pic of the water valve would be nice... :D
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on February 02, 2016, 11:02:18 AM
BUILDING THE TROLLEY
The biggest mission (for me anyway) when building a cart / trolley is to get wheels... And NOTHING one can buy of the shelve works visually...
When I did the restoration on the ZC208 Fairbanks-Morse a few years back I had the same problem. I designed my signature wheels and did most of the work after hours at the factory where I work. This time round access to the machines have become almost impossible. Private jobs in the factory was stopped because certain individuals abused the privilege...  I printed out my drawings and had the wheels made by a fabrication shop. (I just turned the hubs and supplied them to be welded in).

Like I said: These are my "signature wheels", but since you are such a friendly crowd I'll share my drawings. Hope it can help someone -- even if it just serves as a template for your own custom designs.
I saved the *.pdf files on Mediafire. DO NOT USE THE ON-LINE VIEWER. The viewer for some reason messes around with the drawing... -> Download the file and then open it.  

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/874f/4sc5eaue7f8a5yb4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/4sc5eaue7f8a5yb/Download_pdf.JPG)

http://www.mediafire.com/download/1448jmaro5fmcfs/Teardrop_Spoke_Wheel_-_Manufacturing.PDF (http://www.mediafire.com/download/1448jmaro5fmcfs/Teardrop_Spoke_Wheel_-_Manufacturing.PDF)

http://www.mediafire.com/download/dbl6hvlnd9bqu8h/Teardrop_Spokes.PDF (http://www.mediafire.com/download/dbl6hvlnd9bqu8h/Teardrop_Spokes.PDF)

http://www.mediafire.com/download/j3613jg3ebkk1n2/Teardrop_Spokes_Wheel.PDF (http://www.mediafire.com/download/j3613jg3ebkk1n2/Teardrop_Spokes_Wheel.PDF)

Turning the Hubs:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/10a7/t6dvo6dufasx8284g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/t6dvo6dufasx828/20160129_183438.jpg)

Delivered hubs to Fab shop. Wheels tacked up already:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/8311/iwixustt7b7btq64g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/iwixustt7b7btq6/20160130_081209.jpg)

All done and looking good!
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/183f/pejt7tkib224b7h4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/pejt7tkib224b7h/20160202_171757.jpg)

Pic showing the hub welded in position.
(This is the inside of the wheel.)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/444f/uxb2drvl6f6jxvl4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/uxb2drvl6f6jxvl/20160202_171820.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on February 03, 2016, 10:19:06 AM
Wheels done, now the steering and the frame.
I decided to go with a single pivot for the steering. Pity I didn't go for steerable wheels instead but I'm not changing it now.

Fixed pivot point:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/8244/ey1cyc1mjfafi444g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/ey1cyc1mjfafi44/20160120_174541.jpg)

Male and female bits:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d774/kcc6fyf6lmb6sdo4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/kcc6fyf6lmb6sdo/20160121_181741.jpg)

How it goes together. The pivot will rotate around both the large and small diameters. There should be very little play in the pivot.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/075d/2a21744ihuo134c4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/2a21744ihuo134c/20160121_181844.jpg)

Bolt holes tapped to fix the plate to the front axle.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/7c3e/zotur623z7ngra44g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/zotur623z7ngra4/20160122_151141.jpg)

Fabrication started. This is going to be a VERY heavy trolley...
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/791f/c6n4f2cnm4ehka54g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/c6n4f2cnm4ehka5/20160123_155128.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: EdDee on February 03, 2016, 02:55:55 PM
Hi Smoker,

Possibly fit a heavy compression spring on the pivot bolt to take up the small amount of slack in the 5th wheel... That will stop it rattling on the power stroke... Don't forget a grease nipple or five as well... Also on the wheel hubs....

Looking VERY smart indeed....!

Cheerz
Ed
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on February 03, 2016, 04:33:56 PM
Hi Smoker,

Possibly fit a heavy compression spring on the pivot bolt to take up the small amount of slack in the 5th wheel... That will stop it rattling on the power stroke... Don't forget a grease nipple or five as well... Also on the wheel hubs....

Looking VERY smart indeed....!

Cheerz
Ed

Thanks for the kind words Ed!
I thought of shimming the swivel to take out as much of the axial play as I can, but I like the plan you have with the spring. I'll see If I can find something that'll work. Maybe a BIG spring washer...?
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: EdDee on February 03, 2016, 09:15:52 PM
Hey DS,

Naah.... You got a lathe, custom valve spring top type thingy....  With a valve spring to suit... Gotta look the Lister part for sure...

Cheers
Ed

PS... if you are close to the reef, look for some old coco pan wheels... might save u some work on your next project...
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on February 22, 2016, 03:04:10 PM
I have a little more progress with the trolley build. I'ts taking quite a bit of time to make all the parts and weld them in place.

All joints are cut out like this, except some corners whith a 45 degree joints.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/ec8d/x95531f97pbcivw4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/x95531f97pbcivw/Joint.jpg)

Fully welded - both sides.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/2f96/avzxczawiztpe4z4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/avzxczawiztpe4z/Welded.jpg)

Alternator trial fitted. I joined a piece of rope to closely resemble a standard B-Section V-belt length I want to use.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/1e45/9o9vsv252oe85094g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/9o9vsv252oe8509/Trial.jpg)

I told myself that I'll take a break after this project. I've put in many many hours of hard labor in a busy schedule and it's actually frustrated me at times. But now I'm faced with a dilemma.... This Lister is very heavy and hard to move by hand.... So I'm going to have to look for a small Holder tractor or something to move the Lister around with  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: TxBlacksmith on February 22, 2016, 03:32:51 PM
Nice joint design and beautiful bead on the weld!  ;D
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on February 22, 2016, 03:41:37 PM
Nice joint design and beautiful bead on the weld!  ;D

Thanks TxB!
The trolley will be rock-solid when I'm done with it. This Diesel will never break it.

Anyone have a plan with the broken alternator foot? (I don't have the missing piece).
I was thinking of crafting a foot using fibreglass bodyfiller just to patch it up cosmetically...
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6f90/zstryt2m80dckqg4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/zstryt2m80dckqg/Broken_foot.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: EdDee on February 22, 2016, 04:49:08 PM
Hey Ds,

By all means, patch it up cosmetically, but first I would put it on a slightly oversize 6 or 10 mm base plate and drill/tap a fourth bolt from below into that corner. Even if your engine is a smooth runner, the power stroke could cause a bit of a hop on the alternator end... with steel wheels and a hard surface below them, the shock loading, even from a few mm of travel up and down, is enormous on something as heavy as the alternator... Rather safe than sorry, much easier to do it now than fabricate an entire base after the CI has gone jigsaw on you....

Possibly I am a bit over cautious, but hey, let's see what the real fundis  say....

Cheers
Ed

PS... I got a Gravely 12hp mini tractor and a Gravely mini 2 wheel tractor that would tow this creature of yours easily.... but..... you ain't getting 'em... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on April 05, 2016, 07:28:50 AM
I think I complained about this previously.... this trolley is taking me forever to build!!  ???
I must shift most of the blame to other projects (Like building a shed behind my garage), but still - I have put hours and hours of work into this already.
5+Kg of welding rods later I'm starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel  ;D

It was a pain moving the trolley, so the priority became to make the drawbar before doing anything else:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/431c/w5mm3m1imslootc4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/w5mm3m1imslootc/Drawbar_added.jpg)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6fa1/qs474vd5adsgq684g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/qs474vd5adsgq68/Drawbar_Up.jpg)

The v-belts ran real close to the channel closest to the flywheel. Not sure if they would actually ever touch, but I decided not to take a chance and I fabricated a cutout into the beam.
I welded in a short piece of channel so the structural integrity of the modified beam would not be affected.
View from above:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/bbc0/w449wq7qw93w74p4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/w449wq7qw93w74p/Belt_Clearance_Top.jpg)

View from below:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/63d3/g0ac0dvdz5r8h684g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/g0ac0dvdz5r8h68/Belt_Clearance_Under.jpg)

Last of the structural members welded in place:
Support for the swivel plate and gussets (made from channel) to strengthen the joint and also for some cosmetic benefits.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/a754/z4yjeqfubmqvy6c4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/z4yjeqfubmqvy6c/Members_Added.jpg)

Next would be to determine the position of the cooling tank and then build frame for that.
Oh yes... and then slot some holes in the frame and make a tensioner for the alternator. Not sure how to accurately get those pulley grooves aligned... any ideas?

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on April 05, 2016, 01:42:16 PM
Something just crossed my mind. I was never able to accurately determine the year model of this engine.
(There is a picture on page one of this thread of the nameplate)

Can someone help please?

 6/1 CS
16786113


Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: AdeV on April 06, 2016, 04:03:21 PM
Engine No: 1678
Spec: 61
Year: 13 (+1950) = 1963
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on April 06, 2016, 08:54:16 PM
Engine No: 1678
Spec: 61
Year: 13 (+1950) = 1963

 :o Easy! Thanks AdeV!

Date also confirmed by the markings on the crankcase casting:

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7569.msg85511#msg85511 (http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7569.msg85511#msg85511)
There is another way of dating a genuine Lister CS engine.  This information has been copied and pasted from the UK Lister CSOG  and it goes like this.

You can always look on the crankcase, on the opposite side to the
injection pump, right above the crankshaft bearing housing you will
find foundry casting marks telling you the month and year that it was
cast. It will be something like 15-A-53
Where 15 is the day or batch number, A is the month, where A=Jan,
B=Feb etc and 53 is the year.

Mick

This one would then be:
3 = Day/Batch
D = April
63 = 1963
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/87c6/8awd243leo7oruy4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/8awd243leo7oruy/Casting_Date.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on April 18, 2016, 02:06:22 PM
Showing some more progress.
New rings and small end bush fitted. Nice to run the engine with a clean exhaust for the first time. I think my garage is very well fumigated after running the engine without the oil ring  ;D

After putting the alternator back on the frame I had another look at the belt alignment problem.
There is a tool available that locates inside the V grooves with magnets and then the alignment is done with laser pointers, but I don't have that luxury - one can never have enough tools!!
Only way I could figure out was to measure the distance from the top of the groove to the face of the pulley - and the same on the flywheel.

(Click image to enlarge)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/673e/zmcy9z7fcq6bf8f4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/zmcy9z7fcq6bf8f/Flywheel_Width.jpg)

The difference between the pulley groove and flywheel groove distance from the respective wheel face is 22.5mm. Thus, with the straight edge against the flywheel face there must be an opening of 22.5mm between the straight edge and the alternator pulley.
I might make blocks that will fit on the face of the alternator pulley, otherwise I'll just measure the gap with an inside micrometer.
First I need to fabricate the swivel and mount the alternator before I worry further about this.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d2e6/1438aka38li9oa54g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/1438aka38li9oa5/Alignment_Gap.jpg)

Also started preparing the material for the water tank stand:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/5021/7227vm2fm3gblza4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/7227vm2fm3gblza/20160416_155844.jpg)

Nice snug fit inside the ring.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/f420/c0d5p2pfatahf024g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/c0d5p2pfatahf02/20160416_155912.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselspanner on April 20, 2016, 09:54:38 PM
Hi Dieselsmoker

That's all I've ever done to get the belt(s) to run true, I've never used anything more technical than a Stanley tape, half a mil +/- should be fine

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 09, 2016, 11:35:27 AM
Hey guys. I had some "Lister coffee" on Saturday!! The moment was big and my hands were dirty so I never even made a video... (Good excuse to do it again). It was great to finally be able to put some load on the engine after all the hard work I put into it. I boiled the (2 Kw) kettle 3 times during the hour I had the engine running. When I boiled kettle #3 the exhaust started to clear up nicely so the rings must be close to bedding in. The governor didn't react like it should - The engine lost some speed so the spring must be a bit stiff. I also did a quick speed check and with the alternator at 1500 rpm the engine was doing about 580 rpm - pity about that... almost 1 horse lost there...

Still a couple of things on my to-do list, but I'm already toying with an idea in the back of my head to improve the cooling system's look and function.
(I'm thinking to base the dimensions roughly on the 50 liter drum I am using at the moment.)
The top stays open for evaporation and a good number of copper tubes between the top and bottom tank to disperse the heat.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/bbfd/7ee998pr8udfsph4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/7ee998pr8udfsph/Tube_Tank.JPG)

Any thoughts or ideas?
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: carlb23 on May 09, 2016, 11:38:01 AM
a small radiator would be much cheaper and save a bunch of space
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 09, 2016, 01:01:29 PM
Agreed, but the looks are almost (if not more) important than function as the gen-set will also be a showpiece when I'm done with it. If I could lay my hands on one of those old cast iron radiators I would go for it in an instant, but I can't find something like that anywhere... Home heating radiators were (and are) not commonly used in my area due to the climate. I wish I had a feeling of the required cooling capacity of the engine. I can go ahead and build my tube radiator, but will it have enough cooling capacity to cool the engine under continuous load conditions...? Judging by how long it takes for the engine to warm up after a cold start I think I might be unnecessarily worried about the requirement. 
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: EdDee on May 09, 2016, 01:58:58 PM
Hi DS....

+1 for what CarlB said.... But... For something really pretty.... Look for an OLD 100L low pressure electrical inline geyser(water heater)... they had copper inners.... Strip off the outer insulation, stand on the non-element side(which is dished) and put the needed fittings in place after taking off the other/top/element side to give you a lovely, copper water tank.... To sit and solder all those copper pipes in will be a pain on your design, as well as prone to cracking loose if you transport it much on bad roads....

Just a thought....

Cheerz
Ed

PS - Failing that, take a look round the scrapyards for an OLD radiator, a la Fergusson TED or Massey 135 .... Brass endcaps with copper cores and fins.... Looks beautiful when the black paint is removed and clear lacquer is applied....
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Hugh Conway on May 10, 2016, 12:17:08 AM
@Smoker....find yourself a cast iron rad......way cool (sorry, couldn't resist) and  a 10 fin works great. That's what I'm using for my "Roid daily driver.
My Dursley Startomatic has an old milk can with bosses welded in for its cooling tank and a stainless beer keg for the fuel tank........
As long as it is painted in Brunswick green you are good to go!

"Run what you brung"

Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on May 10, 2016, 12:22:11 AM
ink my garage is very well fumigated after running the engine without the oil ring  ;D

After putting the alternator back on the frame I had another look at the belt alignment problem.


AS much as it will upset the old school Purists, I have come to believe that critical belt alignment is WAY over rated. Like a lot of other things on the net.
I don't know if it is modern belts or the thing of having perfect alignment was a crock from the start but I have run things Big hours with visibly way off belts and haven't been able to find any problem.
Obviously the longer the belt the more ability and flexibility it has to self align.

If one is concerned about getting 10 years out of a belt I'm sure perfect alignment helps but if you are one that believes in preventative maintenance and changing things before they fail, then a bit of misalignment in my experience doesn't hurt and I have never seen it really damage or wear a belt either.  I suppose it would depend on what one considered a reasonable degree of being out but I have had some I looked at and thought " bloody hell!" and it seemed that the lack of efficiency may have been a lot more of a problem than reduced belt life.

Not saying you can have them a mile out and don't worry, just no need to get too precise IMHO.... especially if you have a 2 ft gap between the pulleys.
The other thing I have found is tension. I put just enough on to stop them slipping and that's it. My brother in law worked in the power transmission industry and he was in agreeance. He said the less tension, the less strain and load on bearings and as long as they don't slip, all good.

That said, I remember going interstate one night on business and staying in this high class hotel. Outside the window there must have been an AC unit or ventilator or something.  Every time the thing kicked in, the belts on this thing would scream and scare the ship out of me.  I had a load of crap with me and really didn't want to move it all in the middle of the night but I didn't get used to the screeching. By the morning I was a tired, nervous wreck.
I went down to the desk and didn't even try to be polite or subtle. They upgraded me to a very swish room and although I wasn't going to stay, I said well I was going to now stay another 3 nights as I have more people to see, am I going to have to move yet again?  No, that's fine.  Terrific. Mrs and I had 3 days sight seeing although most of the first day we spent catching up on sleep we missed from the night before.


Another one I learnt the hard way was perfect shaft coupling alignment.
Spent ages getting these shafts lined up as perfect as I could but when I turned the motor on, the pump wailed.
Took ages re doing them about 5  times till I determined the things were perfectly aligned and that seemed to be the problem.  When the Torque of the motor was applied it moved the pump shaft which had a bit of movement and caused the thing to make noise. By loosening the pump so it could move around ( just)  and giving it a run, I positioned it till it ran quiet and then locked the bastard down. The shafts had a clear kick in the alignment but ran free even when turned off.  I have been using that pump for years and it has a spider coupling for the jaws on the shaft and I have never replaced it nor does it ever look like it will need re doing.
Done about 6 of these pump setups for friends and kicked them all off to an angle and no problem..... except for one engineer friend that thought he would "Fix" My alignment error only to find the pump made a wailing noise now. Took him a bit to work out the shafts didn't like alignment ( and this was on a NEW pump) and to put it back the way I had it.

Not sure he's still comfortable with that but he knows the thing runs better so contents himself in the knowledge.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on May 10, 2016, 12:43:12 AM
Still a couple of things on my to-do list, but I'm already toying with an idea in the back of my head to improve the cooling system's look and function.

Any thoughts or ideas?

If you want something small or even you could hide, Look a t the cabin heater from a car.  They will transfer an amazing amount of heat thanks to their dense design.  I had a car i took the cooling fans off all together and in traffic wold just run the heater flat out. Yes, after a couple of summers doing that it got old but the car never over heated. I had a W123 Diesel mec I used to tow an oversize trailer with. Thing was only about half the cars rated towing weight but being enclosed and having a huge frontage, it was like a parachute. Towing it over 80 even with friends far more new and powerful cars used to really tax the HP and heat the things up.

The old merc would be running right at the wrong end of hot but putting on the cabin heater and rolling down all the windows made a HUGE difference.  Even on my current truck that has a radiator like a Mack, it can get too warm pulling heavy loads up slow, winding hills.  Put the cabin heater on and it's fine.  Clearly they are dispatching a lot more than 6 HP worth of heat so I have no doubt they would easily keep a lister cool with the right fan sucking the air through.

Another one I see at the local engine show most years is a setup where the guy uses the frame itself as the radiator. He has both a genny and a pump mounted on the frame so it's kinda long and also built with the purpose in mind but the water travels through and around the frame and uses it as the heat exchanger.  There are a couple of fittings on each end and he said he ran a 1" Pipe through the centre and was going to couple that to the pump throughput for extra cooling but found it wasn't necessary.

There is an opportunity to come up with something creative, different and funky here that could make the engine a real conversation piece.  Maybe go for something a bit unusual here to really make your setup stand out.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 11, 2016, 10:55:24 AM
Hi DS....

+1 for what CarlB said.... But... For something really pretty.... Look for an OLD 100L low pressure electrical inline geyser(water heater)... they had copper inners.... Strip off the outer insulation, stand on the non-element side(which is dished) and put the needed fittings in place after taking off the other/top/element side to give you a lovely, copper water tank.... To sit and solder all those copper pipes in will be a pain on your design, as well as prone to cracking loose if you transport it much on bad roads....

Just a thought....

Cheerz
Ed

PS - Failing that, take a look round the scrapyards for an OLD radiator, a la Fergusson TED or Massey 135 .... Brass endcaps with copper cores and fins.... Looks beautiful when the black paint is removed and clear lacquer is applied....

Chances I'll find a water heater like that is probably close to zero, but you have a fresh idea with the brass radiator... I'll sure keep my eyes open for one of those!
If I ever do go with my design I'll weld some steel bracing in between the two tanks, but yes... it will be a pain to assemble and solder it...


@Smoker....find yourself a cast iron rad......way cool (sorry, couldn't resist) and  a 10 fin works great. That's what I'm using for my "Roid daily driver.
My Dursley Startomatic has an old milk can with bosses welded in for its cooling tank and a stainless beer keg for the fuel tank........
As long as it is painted in Brunswick green you are good to go!

"Run what you brung"

Cheers,
Hugh

Sure you are very sorry for mentioning that....  :P One of those cast radiators is right at the top of my wishlist!
Nice idea with the milk can and diesel tank by the way! 

AS much as it will upset the old school Purists, I have come to believe that critical belt alignment is WAY over rated. Like a lot of other things on the net.
I don't know if it is modern belts or the thing of having perfect alignment was a crock from the start but I have run things Big hours with visibly way off belts and haven't been able to find any problem.
Obviously the longer the belt the more ability and flexibility it has to self align.

If one is concerned about getting 10 years out of a belt I'm sure perfect alignment helps but if you are one that believes in preventative maintenance and changing things before they fail, then a bit of misalignment in my experience doesn't hurt and I have never seen it really damage or wear a belt either.  I suppose it would depend on what one considered a reasonable degree of being out but I have had some I looked at and thought " bloody hell!" and it seemed that the lack of efficiency may have been a lot more of a problem than reduced belt life.

Not saying you can have them a mile out and don't worry, just no need to get too precise IMHO.... especially if you have a 2 ft gap between the pulleys.  

I got the alignment to within 0.5 mm and left it there - I must strip the set again to paint the trolley and the alternator and I might fiddle with it some more when I reassemble it. I was a bit worried about the belt life, but comparing my alignment accuracy with your experience of "visibly way off alignment" my belt should last just fine. Good to get feedback from actual experience.

Like you said, the pulley center distance and of course other factors like load and speed will all play a role in the alignment and tension tolerance. When I did my trade test we were had to align the pulley faces to within 0.1 mm  

The other thing I have found is tension. I put just enough on to stop them slipping and that's it. My brother in law worked in the power transmission industry and he was in agreeance. He said the less tension, the less strain and load on bearings and as long as they don't slip, all good.  

Fully agree there.
I mounted the alternator on a swivel base. I still need to make the tensioner, so now only the weight of the alternator is tensioning the belts. Although the alternator is quite heavy, I must say I was a bit surprised that there was no slip when I put a full load on the alternator. There is a very slight bounce of the alternator when it runs so I'll just add the tensioner to the base so I can lock it in position.

That said, I remember going interstate one night on business and staying in this high class hotel. Outside the window there must have been an AC unit or ventilator or something.  Every time the thing kicked in, the belts on this thing would scream and scare the ship out of me.  I had a load of crap with me and really didn't want to move it all in the middle of the night but I didn't get used to the screeching. By the morning I was a tired, nervous wreck.
I went down to the desk and didn't even try to be polite or subtle. They upgraded me to a very swish room and although I wasn't going to stay, I said well I was going to now stay another 3 nights as I have more people to see, am I going to have to move yet again?  No, that's fine.  Terrific. Mrs and I had 3 days sight seeing although most of the first day we spent catching up on sleep we missed from the night before.

 :D Yup - they sure do make one horrifying noise. We had a big dust extraction unit where I work. The motor had probably 6 v-belts driving the impeller and it made that same horrible screeching noise when it stated  :o  It sounds wrong - but a v-belt has a surprising amount of tolerance for start-up slipping. They can screech like that day in and day out for years - as long as they don't slip while running. I had a VW Jetta with a very short narrow v-belt driving the alternator from the aircon pulley. If I gave it halve a chance to slip the belt was toast... I now sure do appreciate the poly-v belts!


Still a couple of things on my to-do list, but I'm already toying with an idea in the back of my head to improve the cooling system's look and function.

Any thoughts or ideas?

If you want something small or even you could hide, Look a t the cabin heater from a car.  They will transfer an amazing amount of heat thanks to their dense design.  I had a car i took the cooling fans off all together and in traffic wold just run the heater flat out. Yes, after a couple of summers doing that it got old but the car never over heated. I had a W123 Diesel mec I used to tow an oversize trailer with. Thing was only about half the cars rated towing weight but being enclosed and having a huge frontage, it was like a parachute. Towing it over 80 even with friends far more new and powerful cars used to really tax the HP and heat the things up.

The old merc would be running right at the wrong end of hot but putting on the cabin heater and rolling down all the windows made a HUGE difference.  Even on my current truck that has a radiator like a Mack, it can get too warm pulling heavy loads up slow, winding hills.  Put the cabin heater on and it's fine.  Clearly they are dispatching a lot more than 6 HP worth of heat so I have no doubt they would easily keep a lister cool with the right fan sucking the air through.

Another one I see at the local engine show most years is a setup where the guy uses the frame itself as the radiator. He has both a genny and a pump mounted on the frame so it's kinda long and also built with the purpose in mind but the water travels through and around the frame and uses it as the heat exchanger.  There are a couple of fittings on each end and he said he ran a 1" Pipe through the centre and was going to couple that to the pump throughput for extra cooling but found it wasn't necessary.

There is an opportunity to come up with something creative, different and funky here that could make the engine a real conversation piece.  Maybe go for something a bit unusual here to really make your setup stand out.

Very true about the efficiency of the heater heat exchangers.

Doing something unusual can be just as interesting as something that looks pretty...  8)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: EdDee on May 11, 2016, 12:34:02 PM
Hey DS,

Saw an interesting one on the web the other day... A genhead was "gravity-tensioned" and had some unusual "dampers" to stop it jumping...

To describe the setup:

Viewed from the IP side with the genhead on the right of the flywheel, the hinge point for the genhead was on the left of the genhead, with the baseplate about 10 degrees or so above horizontal. Now the interesting bit - Some hard light colored wood, oak by the looks of it, was sandwiched between the chassis hinge lugs and the hinge lugs on the base of the genhead. (This damper system was used on vintage car suspensions if I remember correctly.)

Theory:
With the flywheel/genhead turning clockwise as viewed, the more electrical load placed on the genhead, the more the base of the genhead is torqued clockwise as well, tensioning the belts as needed under heavier loads. The closer you make to genhead base plate to horizontal, by increasing belt length, the more tension is placed on the belts.... Easy, quick and effective.... No additional dangly bits to contend with.....

Might be worth a look at....

Cheerz
Ed
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 11, 2016, 12:55:02 PM
Hi EdDee

The description you have is exactly what I had done. (Apart from the damping system of course, and my angle is more than 10 degrees) I'll take a picture later and post it.
Do you think you can find that picture again you saw on the web?

The theory does make sense. Very interesting indeed... If I can devise a damping system I can do that instead of fiddling about with an "ordinary" tensioner.
I kinda like the idea of having an auto tensioning belts  ;D

Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: EdDee on May 11, 2016, 09:54:27 PM
Hey DS,

I had a look see through my history, but can't find it... Sorry...

I do remember that the "hinge" bolts for the alternator were a little bigger than the mounting bolts for the roid... the damping blocks were about 3" or maybe a little less', square... The hinge tabs looked to be around 2" wide by about 1/2" thick at a rough guestimate...

Hope that helps....

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 12, 2016, 01:58:52 PM
This is what the setup currently looks like:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/74cc/705bhsl3tyglrf64g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/705bhsl3tyglrf6/Alertantor_Hinge.jpg)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/336a/1yd4x1akk06aqiu4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/1yd4x1akk06aqiu/Hinge_Close-Up.jpg)

I gave it a good load again last night to make it work. I tried to make a video of the slight bounce it has, but the trolley movement makes it difficult to see - taking that into consideration and then closely looking at it the
alternator, the bounce is actually less than what I initially thought is was.

Hey DS,

I had a look see through my history, but can't find it... Sorry...

I do remember that the "hinge" bolts for the alternator were a little bigger than the mounting bolts for the roid... the damping blocks were about 3" or maybe a little less', square... The hinge tabs looked to be around 2" wide by about 1/2" thick at a rough guestimate...

Hope that helps....

Cheers
Ed

...can't quite picture it... but thanks anyway for trying!
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Hugh Conway on May 12, 2016, 04:39:59 PM
@ Dieselsmoker....
I also use the hinge mount for my generator. The 8-rib drive belt slipped or chirped at higher loads, so added a tensioner in the form of a threaded rod through the generator base and attached to the engine mount rail. A nut welded to an old crank handle makes a no tool adjuster.   I have mounted this generator on the exhaust side of the engine from the cooling tank, the idea being easier removal of the crankcase access panel and  to reduce chance of coolant leaking onto the gen head. The downside is that the rotation tends to lift the generator rather than tighten the belt.......hence the tensioner: ......choices.......
IMHO, a hinge mount is a better set-up than the usual channel/slider type of mount.
There is the additional benefit of being able to remove the gen head without disturbing belt alignment by just pulling out the hinge pin.

Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: EdDee on May 12, 2016, 04:43:37 PM
Hey DS,

You are pretty close to being spot on! Where your hinge point is, the other chap had tabs below the genhead base pointing down and tabs on the main chassis of the unit pointing upwards.... All in all, all it did was make the genhead ride a little higher than yours, but not by much....

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 15, 2016, 03:30:50 PM
@ Dieselsmoker....
I also use the hinge mount for my generator. The 8-rib drive belt slipped or chirped at higher loads, so added a tensioner in the form of a threaded rod through the generator base and attached to the engine mount rail. A nut welded to an old crank handle makes a no tool adjuster.   I have mounted this generator on the exhaust side of the engine from the cooling tank, the idea being easier removal of the crankcase access panel and  to reduce chance of coolant leaking onto the gen head. The downside is that the rotation tends to lift the generator rather than tighten the belt.......hence the tensioner: ......choices.......
IMHO, a hinge mount is a better set-up than the usual channel/slider type of mount.
There is the additional benefit of being able to remove the gen head without disturbing belt alignment by just pulling out the hinge pin.

Cheers,
Hugh

Hey Hugh.
I made the choice to mount the gen head on the opposite side purely to make the trolley shorter. The cooling tank is not very successful... even after lowering the top water fitting as low as I could to lower the water level accordingly, it still splashes out... So unless I set up a completely different cooling system, the gen head must get a roof just for insurance  :embarassed: ... Anyway, glad I went with the swivel mount - it works really well.   

Hey DS,

You are pretty close to being spot on! Where your hinge point is, the other chap had tabs below the gen head base pointing down and tabs on the main chassis of the unit pointing upwards.... All in all, all it did was make the genhead ride a little higher than yours, but not by much....

Cheers
Ed

With tests I've done so far I don't even think It needs a damper. I'll however keep my eyes open for spares - I've got an idea  ;)

______________________

Meanwhile.....
One serious air cleaning device installed  ;D
(This Donaldson was destined for a Massey Ferguson 135 that never realized and I was only too happy to accept the redundant parts).
*I test ran it for a couple a minutes after the install and I must say it is quite obvious that all the intake noise is gone.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/359d/iz4uc2zf83xt2dk4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/iz4uc2zf83xt2dk/20160515_125349_1024x576.jpg)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6163/h6pygf7826p9vda4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/h6pygf7826p9vda/20160515_125300_1024x576.jpg)

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on May 16, 2016, 05:06:52 AM

Nice setup with the air filter.
I'm always a bit surprised people, especially the people that do rely on them in the 3rd world places, seem to have a tendency to run them without air filters when they are in very dusty, dirty places.

I have an air filter box of similar swirl design from a Toyota hilux that I am keeping for the same application.  The filter is paper and is huge. I doubt it will ever need changing. Even at 90% blocked it will still probably pass enough air for the Roid!

I have thought about a water bubbler type setup where the air is drawn or bubbled through a water bath. I saw something about this in an old copy of popular mechanics I think it was. it was supposed to be a cheap and easy way to get the dirt out of excessively dusty air. the water was merely drained each day and clean water added. seemed to be very effective.
For my purposes would no doubt also have merit as a water/ vapor injection for cleaning.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on May 16, 2016, 08:50:36 AM
Not that it is particularly needed for most light-duty stationary applications... but Lister used a large Donaldson cyclopac type filter for their heavy-duty applications. The units for the HR series have a cyclonic pre-filter that spins out much of the dirt before it ever gets to the paper filters inside. No moving parts, just a plastic bowl to empty once in awhile depending on conditions. John Deere uses something similar on their earth-moving and also farm equipment as do most other manufacturers. So, if you are needing heavy-duty air cleaning, there is plenty of stuff out there for the picking.

I have also noted quite a few third-world applications where the air filtration is simply ignored... if labor and parts are cheap enough, then maybe the economics of replacing rings (and cylinders) is not any big deal. I have seen quite a few industrial Listers with dusted rings before though, and premature engine failures are pretty costly in most places.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 16, 2016, 06:25:14 PM

Nice setup with the air filter.
I'm always a bit surprised people, especially the people that do rely on them in the 3rd world places, seem to have a tendency to run them without air filters when they are in very dusty, dirty places.

I have an air filter box of similar swirl design from a Toyota hilux that I am keeping for the same application.  The filter is paper and is huge. I doubt it will ever need changing. Even at 90% blocked it will still probably pass enough air for the Roid!

I have thought about a water bubbler type setup where the air is drawn or bubbled through a water bath. I saw something about this in an old copy of popular mechanics I think it was. it was supposed to be a cheap and easy way to get the dirt out of excessively dusty air. the water was merely drained each day and clean water added. seemed to be very effective.
For my purposes would no doubt also have merit as a water/ vapor injection for cleaning.


Thanks glort. Quite impressed with how it turned out.
I agree. This filter has enough filter capacity to last 786655+ years!! With it being a cyclone it doesn't even draw all the dirt into the filter element. All the heavy stuff is thrown away from the element into a collector bowl. The filter is actually supposed to be installed horizontally for this to work properly, but I don't really need this feature so the most practical installation position won the day.

There was no way I would leave the original intake strainer on the engine. To me running an engine without an air cleaner just feels wrong... My Fairbanks-Morse has no air cleaner but it lives indoors and never sees dusty conditions. Can't believe people ran these engines outdoors like this...  :o

Not that it is particularly needed for most light-duty stationary applications... but Lister used a large Donaldson cyclopac type filter for their heavy-duty applications. The units for the HR series have a cyclonic pre-filter that spins out much of the dirt before it ever gets to the paper filters inside. No moving parts, just a plastic bowl to empty once in awhile depending on conditions. John Deere uses something similar on their earth-moving and also farm equipment as do most other manufacturers. So, if you are needing heavy-duty air cleaning, there is plenty of stuff out there for the picking.

I have also noted quite a few third-world applications where the air filtration is simply ignored... if labor and parts are cheap enough, then maybe the economics of replacing rings (and cylinders) is not any big deal. I have seen quite a few industrial Listers with dusted rings before though, and premature engine failures are pretty costly in most places.

dieselgman

Here is a photo of the Donaldson pre-cleaner. Again, the air cleaner is supposed to be horizontally oriented, so the pre-cleaner is now laying on it's side.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/17d9/2v11zbwohappcdo4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/2v11zbwohappcdo/20160516_164813_1024x576.jpg)

The parts:
Cap, Dust bowl and Cyclone - Air is drawn in through the cyclone fins and dust particles is spinned upwards against the inner cone of the dust bowl. As they get to the top of the cone, they get flung outwards through a gap between the cone and the cap. Particles fall to the bottom of the bowl where they collect. Pre-cleaned air passes down the centre into the air cleaner intake. Quite amazing how effective the pre-cleaner works considering that the intake is directly adjacent (in the middle of) to the cyclone. The air goes through yet another similar cyclone inside the air cleaner housing and then passes through the paper element. All this mechanical pre-cleaning extends the element life enormously.

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c654/oebbopwwaukm3bm4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/oebbopwwaukm3bm/20160516_165239_1024x576.jpg)

Close-up of the pre-cleaner cyclone:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/5117/s92xzuxcumscu9l4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/s92xzuxcumscu9l/20160516_165310_1024x576.jpg)

Pre-cleaner maintenance instructions. Region being South-Africa, the instructions are in both English and Afrikaans.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/8112/copkn5mj6tycn2j4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/copkn5mj6tycn2j/20160516_165140_1024x576.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: EdDee on May 16, 2016, 08:24:00 PM
Hey DS,

I had a similar pre cleaner on my filter, almost identical to yours... I found the vibration caused it to disembark a few times, eventually breaking the clear bowl... Having since removed it, less hassle and with almost 3k hours on it, hardly any restriction on the filter as yet... Also ZA conditions, less than 50m from a gravel road frequented by heavy vehicles as well....

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 22, 2016, 07:51:26 PM
Operation exhaust silencer:
I had a look at commercially available silencers, but decided to make my own. (Like most things on this project.) I like experimenting a bit, put my signature on the project and at the same time save some money.

Been keeping my eyes open for the last week or so for a suitable piece of pipe as a casing, when it suddenly struck me that an old fire extinguisher would work just fine for this purpose.

Exhaust flange:
Cut from a piece of 12mm plate. Hole bored out on the lathe. Used the original exhaust flange as a template.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/65ac/4fmi48ko9rlrxh44g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/4fmi48ko9rlrxh4/20160515_125459_1024x576.jpg)

I picked up the old extinguisher for a few bucks from an extinguisher service station. Spend quite some time to grind off the fittings and also the ring it stands on. Added bonus that it now has a nice rounded bottom. I offset the inlet from the bottom up to reduce the height, and also offset it to the side to get the silencer away from the air cleaner - notice the oblong side hole to achieve the lateral offset.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/894c/6gku5hcw1prwfjz4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/6gku5hcw1prwfjz/20160522_103917_1024x576.jpg)
 
The intake baffle:
Millions of randomly drilled holes..... 
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/31f5/kxy7iuqj553mdc94g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/kxy7iuqj553mdc9/20160522_104010_1024x576.jpg)

Trial fit:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/76fe/p8xdcnvqne4z5s84g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/p8xdcnvqne4z5s8/20160522_181542_1024x576.jpg)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/20a5/rkq967mrbob26k64g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/rkq967mrbob26k6/20160522_181609_1024x576.jpg)

Next step will be to cut the top off and make some (I think 3) chambers and baffles. Plenty more holes to drill  :o
Still not sure what packing material to use. I'll give the exhaust shop a call and find out if they've got something. I have some ceramic heat blanket, but after some Google searches I gave up on that idea. Apparently there are some health concerns with fibers that dislodge over time and gets blown into atmosphere. Steel wool burns... pot scrubbers can work, but I'll need to buy a whole bunch of them and that will be a very uneconomical solution.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 06, 2016, 10:18:56 AM
A small update again on my build:

Top of first chamber. Gas flows from the 1st chamber to the 3rd chamber (topmost), down into chamber #2 and then vents to atmosphere.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/dcef/528ab66x016o79h4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/528ab66x016o79h/20160603_165810.jpg)

Parts for the second and third expansion chamber:  
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/4b79/nh8ntob9z9465e64g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/nh8ntob9z9465e6/20160603_165817.jpg)

I ran the engine under load for some time and it sounds very nice. No more hurting ears.. Note my anti splash cover on the cooling tank  :D.
I covered it with a piece of petrol cloth and it completely stopped the splashing. Not sure if it takes away too much surface area for proper evaporation,
but it did allow a good amount of steam come off. I think I'll make a nice frame for the screen so it can fit inside the tank.
https://youtu.be/mL4nzjA142Q
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on July 10, 2016, 02:12:52 PM
Hi.
I've been searching the web to find a Diesel tank for the 6/1 when I stumbled accross this at Central Marine Diesel:
http://www.centralmainediesel.com/order/inc/invoice_parts.asp?Page=Fuel_Tank (http://www.centralmainediesel.com/order/inc/invoice_parts.asp?Page=Fuel_Tank)

Have any of you dealt with Central Marine? How is the service? I usually only buy when I can pay with Paypal, but I'm now forced to pay with my credit card...


Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on July 10, 2016, 02:55:03 PM
I"ve bought parts from CMD and have had no problems.  Their parts are a match for my older Metro branded Listeroid; the 4 big bolt heads and cylinders with liners, cast iron rings in cast iron liner. They ship promptly and have Rajkot made parts (with all that implies) in stock at competative prices.  I don't know that I'd recommend a Rajkot fuel tank- my original Metro petcock parts in particular were poorly made and leaky. The stamped steel bits should be OK.  In all my years on the forum I don't recall a single complaint about CMD, and they have been around for a long time.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on July 10, 2016, 04:03:21 PM
I don't know that I'd recommend a Rajkot fuel tank- my original Metro petcock parts in particular were poorly made and leaky. The stamped steel bits should be OK.

Thanks for the feedback Bruce. Quality is always a concern and I'm not really prepared to throw good money at a crap. I'll try my luck a bit more around here and see if I can find an original one. Chances I'll find one is pretty good, but the location and price might be a tough combo to beat. I'f I can't locate one I'm gonna have to take my chances on the curry tank.  ;)   :D

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: broncodriver99 on July 10, 2016, 04:35:45 PM
I bought their fuel tank kit. Best price I could find anywhere. It is a decent kit. The only things that seem of poor quality are the hardware(bottom of the barrel Indian junk) and the fuel line(cheap). Everything else including the tank and fittings are really decent. I called in and talked to them and the guy I talked to was very nice and knowledgeable. Had everything 2 days later. They may take paypal if you call in.

Like you though I am still on the lookout for an original tank. This will at least give me something to hold fuel while I try to get it running.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on July 10, 2016, 05:24:13 PM
Great. Thanks. Definately an option then.

.........This will at least give me something to hold fuel while I try to get it running.
I'm sooooooo tired of topping up that plasic funnel every 5 minutes  ::) :laugh:
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on July 10, 2016, 06:20:24 PM
As I recall, the threaded fitting on the Rajkot tank fits a standard US pipe fitting.  I just replaced the petcock valve with one from ACE hardware and then was fine for my early test runs. 
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: rosebud on July 10, 2016, 10:12:53 PM
I live about 3 hours from their shop... nice guys to deal with. I just drop over for some cross border shopping and stop in.
I did buy a tank from them. The tank is fine, the valve was not so hot.. but kinda to be expected from across the pond.
They have quite a bit of old stock Listeroid parts at good prices.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: mike90045 on July 10, 2016, 10:21:18 PM
When the shaking started wearing out the tank mounting bolts, I relocated the tank to a shelf on the shed wall and let the rubber fuel hose vibrate.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on July 11, 2016, 03:07:20 PM
Managed to find one tank thus far at twice the price of the tank at CMD.. I'll try for another couple of days locally for an original (and hope the reduced price at CMD lasts as long!!)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on July 11, 2016, 04:18:36 PM
We also stock the Rajkot fuel tanks, but they are certainly not of decent quality - especially alongside an original British unit. We also have original tanks, but the aging process has taken its toll on most everything I have looked at here. That old sheet metal is just nowhere near as resilient as the cast iron.  I have also investigated getting decent replica tanks built... need to order quantity 500 to even get started that direction.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on July 11, 2016, 07:14:18 PM
...We also have original tanks, but...
dieselgman
Ah! Almost got excited there  :D

...That old sheet metal is just nowhere near as resilient as the cast iron...
dieselgman
Quite obvious how many old engines are without tanks... One would think that the oily diesel fuel would preserve the plate  ???
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on July 11, 2016, 07:55:20 PM
We do have good original tanks of close to the same dimensions - but made for their newer air-cooled line. That could be a viable option if you want original British steel and good quality. The newer tanks have a slight shape variation, (clearance under one side for fuel filter), but other than that are a close match and have the Lister name embossed in the steel.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on July 11, 2016, 08:23:11 PM
Do you have anything specific in mind that can work as a suitable replacement?
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on July 11, 2016, 10:37:16 PM
We have the original round fuel tanks from Lister that were strapped to the cooling tanks... also have the rectangular engine-mounted units as per previous posting here.

You may email me with further questions or request pictures etc.. gary@dieselgen.com

dieselgman

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on September 12, 2016, 08:47:25 AM
With the weather warming up again I have renewed energy to get some things done around the house. Good thing weekends are only 2 days - I need the rest during the week  :D :D :D
The best time spend is of course working on the 6/1 project:

Trolley all cleaned up and painted
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6ef4/iiwrxmxiieijuzm4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/iiwrxmxiieijuzm/Trolley.jpg)

Engine bolted down to the frame for the last time... With all the handling and trial fits the flywheels got dinged and scratched on a couple of spots.
I've been careful with the rest of the components so no touch-ups needed anywhere else.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d35b/36y95ksb83bhs2f4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/36y95ksb83bhs2f/Engine_Masking.jpg)

All shiny and pretty again  8)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/3a40/2a6rirdfqfzlif94g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/2a6rirdfqfzlif9/Engine_Pose.jpg)

Hallelujah... the LAST bits on the paint bench!!
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/2d32/1508bbj9pv7t4rp4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/1508bbj9pv7t4rp/Parts_Paint.jpg)

.........and the million dollar question for this post:
How is the pulley fixed on the shaft? Can it be a shrink fit? It's keyed, but there are no retaining bolts or taper sleeves or anything like that to lock the pulley on the shaft. It was quite a mission to get all the old paint off with the pulley still in place. It is still on my to-do list to at some point put a smaller pulley on the alternator as the engine only spins at about 580 rpm to produce 50 Hz.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9d8e/69v9sgtp8ottg844g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/69v9sgtp8ottg84/Alternator_Metal.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: EdDee on September 12, 2016, 01:56:14 PM
Hi DS,

That looks very similar to my Hoffberg alternator.... The pulley was held on by a allen grub screw screwed down onto the back of the key, on the inboard side of the pulley...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on September 12, 2016, 02:58:52 PM
Hi EdDee.
That is a Hoffberg alternator!
(I swear I didn't see a grub screw hole... --- and  double checked again. nothing.)

I'll take a pic of the connector box tonight and post it here --- hope you can help me with the connections and what type of AVR will work here. You don't have a wiring diagram by any chance??
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/53a9/lryg6likk2yvqwp4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/lryg6likk2yvqwp/Alt_Nameplate.jpg)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/cc82/j253esr47dejxlo4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/j253esr47dejxlo/Alt_Connections.jpg)

The two red wires are definitely the 230VAC output.
S and S1?
C and C1?

Just looking at the wire gauge of S and S1, this is probably a starter alternator.

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: EdDee on September 13, 2016, 08:41:15 AM
Hi DS,

I am not using an AVR on mine... Just the old shunt transformer/rectifier to exciter.... As to the wiring diagram side, no luck I am afraid, but I will scratch round and see what I can find....

Take a really good look for the grub screw hole on the pulley boss, on occasion, they fill with gunk and are really hard to spot. Mine had a 1/4" grub screw in it...(Usually the grub screw pushes on the back of the key)... Is there no evidence of a taper bush or similar? I have not seen the pulleys press fitted on these units, or taper keys either for that matter, but, it is not impossible....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on September 13, 2016, 09:23:31 AM
Hi Ed
Thanks. I have a Hoffberg wiring diagram somewhere but for some reason I remember that I didn't think it was for the alternator. I'll dig it out and have another look at it.
Apologies for my ignorance - but can you please elaborate a bit on the shunt transformer/rectifier to exciter configuration?

Definitely no grub screw...not on the key or anywhere else...and I had all the old paint stripped off... Really strange not to retain it somehow ???
Probably going to be a tough one to remove  :o
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/a246/eso93o2h9tz600u4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/eso93o2h9tz600u/Alt_Front_Key.jpg)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/2de6/d44x5hcsaz7xulw4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/d44x5hcsaz7xulw/Alt_Rear_key.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: EdDee on September 13, 2016, 11:40:49 AM
Hi DS,

Effectively, the output AC is passed in series through the primary of a transformer (A heavy little bugger with primary leads about 2.5 to 3mm or so thick if I remember correctly)... The secondary of the transformer is rectified and applied to the fields to increase field strength as a load is applied to the output... There are a few wire-wound resistors to trim and balance the whole gubbins, but this is just the basics of how it operates.... I have heard, not verified though, that all of the Hoffberg's were up to 15KvA capable... The only thing that changed was the output transformer... The windings were identical in thickness and in number on all the 15KvA and below.... (Treat as hearsay until you can verify though...)

Keep it Sparkin'

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: 38ac on September 13, 2016, 02:37:32 PM
With no other means of retaining I would have to think that the pulley originally had a tapered gibb key in it?
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: broncodriver99 on September 13, 2016, 03:32:29 PM
From the pics it looks to me like that key and key way may be tapered. Have you put a mic on it to check? It may just be the picture but the rear looks slightly shallow compared to the the front, like the taper is in the shaft.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Hugh Conway on September 13, 2016, 04:57:46 PM
As Butch and Bronco suggested, perhaps it does have a gib key, or at least a tapered key.
My startomatic generator pulley/flywheel is attached to the gen shaft by a gib key, though the key has the usual tab for removal.
Never tried to remove the key as I am using a PMG rather than the original starto gear.
Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on September 14, 2016, 08:50:09 AM
The mind still boggles with the way the pulley is mounted... I won't stress too much about that now though - I'll cross that bridge when the day arrives when I get to do the pulley change. I own some really big hammers...  ;D

I found the old Hoffberg wiring diagrams I had. Original pages turning yellow but they are very well preserved otherwise.

Click the mediafire links below to download the .pdf documents.
(The download screen is quite busy... Just aim for the big green DOWNLOAD button as shown in the screenshot below)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9223/bau5ot8b28h5ufv4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/bau5ot8b28h5ufv/Mediafire_Screenshot.JPG)

http://www.mediafire.com/download/u9rzyg6thvase1e/Hoffberg__AC_Wiring_DC_Charging.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/u9rzyg6thvase1e/Hoffberg__AC_Wiring_DC_Charging.pdf)
http://www.mediafire.com/download/m07ub5gi9vmilgm/Hoffberg__Connections.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/m07ub5gi9vmilgm/Hoffberg__Connections.pdf)
http://www.mediafire.com/download/g15tvsl33pr32xi/Hoffberg__Internal_Wiring.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/g15tvsl33pr32xi/Hoffberg__Internal_Wiring.pdf)

Here are screenshots to preview the diagrams:
There are two types of Hoffberg Alternators: The STG/WDG and the Series B
Huge Assumption: The one I have is not marked, but since it falls in the 2-5Kw range at 32-36 Volt DC, it must be a Series B

Notice the last note: "Hoffberg series 'B' and STG/WDG alternators are self regulating and do not require any external rheostats or regulators"  -- There must be something inside the alternator I can check to confirm this? Does this mean that I don't need an AVR?  ???

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/571f/yvg2tg1i0dbirk84g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/yvg2tg1i0dbirk8/Hoffberg__AC_Wiring_DC_Charging.JPG)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/4677/inndrct052jafd44g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/inndrct052jafd4/Hoffberg__Connections.JPG)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/0a01/bxdqod6c7lpgbpa4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/bxdqod6c7lpgbpa/Hoffberg__Internal_Wiring.JPG)

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: EdDee on September 14, 2016, 02:54:54 PM
Hey DS!

Thanks for the diagrams! Much appreciated!!

Interestingly, mine is a tad different with the transformer et al....

Give it a try sans regulator, just as it stands.... You never know, It might work a charm!

As to the pinouts in the box - S/S1 could be starting and C/C1 could be charging....(Going by a very old memory, a bit of guesswork and a bit of visual as to the gauge of wires connected...) The only thing I would be hesitant to try out would be the starting side of things, due to currents involved... Big/expensive smoke cloud if incorrect.... The rest of the connections are outputs, so, unless you load them, no current flowing, no smoke! Employ a volt meter once you get it spinning and take a look to see what they are doing....

Cheers
Ed

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Hugh Conway on September 14, 2016, 05:01:36 PM
I had, (but sold) a Stamford self regulating generator similar to the Hoffberg. No VR required. Never used the machine, so cannot comment about its operation. Some models had starter windings as well. Alas, not the case with mine, or I would not have sold it! These were high spec items, production stopped because they were costly to manufacture.

Apparently, Cummins bought the rights to Stamford, and so acquired all the documentation, even on no longer produced generators. An engineer at Cummins searched the archives, and was able to find the manual for these transformer controlled self regulating generators: even including the build sheet for the particular generator s/n that I had.

I do still have the PDF of the manual, some of the information may be relevant to the Hoffberg.

Anyone wanting a copy of this PDF for Stamford model D8 and D11 can PM me, i will forward it along.

Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on September 15, 2016, 09:22:15 AM
Hey DS!

Thanks for the diagrams! Much appreciated!!

Interestingly, mine is a tad different with the transformer et al....

Give it a try sans regulator, just as it stands.... You never know, It might work a charm!

As to the pinouts in the box - S/S1 could be starting and C/C1 could be charging....(Going by a very old memory, a bit of guesswork and a bit of visual as to the gauge of wires connected...) The only thing I would be hesitant to try out would be the starting side of things, due to currents involved... Big/expensive smoke cloud if incorrect.... The rest of the connections are outputs, so, unless you load them, no current flowing, no smoke! Employ a volt meter once you get it spinning and take a look to see what they are doing....

Cheers
Ed
Pleasure Ed - I googled low and high and I couldn't find a thing on the Hoffbergs. I hope it's of use to you or someone else.
The coolant tank is connected and I'm almost ready to start. I know the AC leads work, but I've not checked voltage stability or the other pins yet. I'll play around a bit and report back. I agree with your pin-outs, but the multi-meter should confirm.

I had, (but sold) a Stamford self regulating generator similar to the Hoffberg. No VR required. Never used the machine, so cannot comment about its operation. Some models had starter windings as well. Alas, not the case with mine, or I would not have sold it! These were high spec items, production stopped because they were costly to manufacture.

Apparently, Cummins bought the rights to Stamford, and so acquired all the documentation, even on no longer produced generators. An engineer at Cummins searched the archives, and was able to find the manual for these transformer controlled self regulating generators: even including the build sheet for the particular generator s/n that I had.

I do still have the PDF of the manual, some of the information may be relevant to the Hoffberg.

Anyone wanting a copy of this PDF for Stamford model D8 and D11 can PM me, i will forward it along.

Cheers,
Hugh

Hi Hugh - Thanks for the feedback and information. I'll check out the Stamford documentation and compare that to the Hoffberg.

Download link for the Stamford D8 and D11 documentation: (9.9Mb .pdf)
http://www.mediafire.com/download/b3ys2i2mjjbdy1i/Stamford_D8_and_D11_Manual.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/b3ys2i2mjjbdy1i/Stamford_D8_and_D11_Manual.pdf)

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on September 16, 2016, 08:55:45 AM
The genset is coming together nicely now and it's about time. I took the trip on 24 August 2013 to the farm where I picked up the engine. I can't believe it's been 3 years already... I can at least say that I renovated almost the whole house during the same time slot so it's understandable that the restoration took a little bit longer than anticipated!

I'm sure the engine runs a lot nicer with the new paint job.
It's almost like my car that drives a lot nicer when it's had a good wash and some TLC. It especially helps to polish the tyres! :D
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/552d/b7paoq79hp7igoe4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/b7paoq79hp7igoe/Making_Coffee.jpg)

A short clip of the engine running:
https://youtu.be/nxSdXS8P6S8

2Kw load on alternator 1499 to 1500 rpm - Engine at 563 rpm. Governor spring not the best as it jumps to 1510 rpm at no-load
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/7d6f/dh16b7cue9wxq644g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/dh16b7cue9wxq64/Alt_rpm_2Kw_Load.jpg)

No load AC voltage: 233V (at 1510 rpm)
2Kw load AC voltage: 225V (at 1500 rpm)
This should be better if the speed regulation is more accurate. I'll adjust the governor back to 1500 rpm at no load and re-check this. It should be a lot closer, but by the looks of it the voltage regulation seems to be okay. Any suggestions of other checks I can do?

I also measured both DC connections with no load S/S1 and C/C1
On both the voltage reading is 36.6 VDC, and both have a resistance measurement of 1.5 ohm  ???
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/839b/4b187168bddzpzz4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/4b187168bddzpzz/Heavy_guage_resistance.jpg)

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: 38ac on September 16, 2016, 10:23:07 AM
My quick math isn't wasn't it once was but your governning as it stands is running under 1% from no load to something a little over half load. Not trying  to desuade you from playing with it but your expectations may be a bit unrealistic for the CS governor, it ain't electronic, LOL.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on September 16, 2016, 10:45:55 AM
My quick math isn't wasn't it once was but your governning as it stands is running under 1% from no load to something a little over half load. Not trying  to desuade you from playing with it but your expectations may be a bit unrealistic for the CS governor, it ain't electronic, LOL.

Mind you.... to put that in another perspective, 1510 rpm takes the frequency to 50.33 Hz - not bad at all!  ;) 
What I really need to check is if the governor reacts linearly over varying loads. This was just an old spring I had lying around so I instinctively distrusted it!!  :D
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: 38ac on September 16, 2016, 12:41:34 PM
My experience with CS and clone governors tells me you should have that spring copied and sell them because your governor response is flat EXCELLANT!! as compared to typical ;)
I have massaged my 5KW 'roid set governor a bit and as it not stands I lose about 3Hz from no load to 3KW. Not sure how that compares with some of the others here who have spent much time and effort on governing  but as compared to stock its quite an improvement.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on September 26, 2016, 10:23:14 AM
My experience with CS and clone governors tells me you should have that spring copied and sell them because your governor response is flat EXCELLANT!! as compared to typical ;)
I have massaged my 5KW 'roid set governor a bit and as it not stands I lose about 3Hz from no load to 3KW. Not sure how that compares with some of the others here who have spent much time and effort on governing  but as compared to stock its quite an improvement.

I've not checked yet how the governor reacts with other loads - sure hope it's good across the whole range!

The Lister did it's first real job over the weekend. I had my 40th (! ??? !) birthday party on Saturday and I thought it fit early morning to give the place it's annual wash down. I sprayed down the entertainment area (and the wife's car) with the 2.1Kw high pressure cleaner. Place was real dusty and dirty after the long dry winter. The relatively low water consumption of the pressure washer made me feel less guilty using it with the impending water restrictions... time to repent our sins and pray for forgiveness and rain! It's not quite the rainy season yet, but the dam is not looking good since the previous season was also relatively dry. Who is this "el nino" character??  >:(  Apperently his fault that it's so dry ;)   Anyway... the Lister was chugging away beautifully for 3.5 hours while I labored away -- Longest single and loaded run it's ever had in my possession :laugh: and a great back track to listen to while doing a real boring chore.

How clean is the exhaust supposed to be? No-load the exhaust is just about clean, but under load it does puff out some smoke. Is it normal? I was expecting it to be cleaner than what it is. It's done a few hours now in total so maybe time to check injector opening pressure (and timing while I'm at it).
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on September 26, 2016, 11:53:03 AM
They say sharing is caring...
This forum and the internet has helped me a lot getting this project to where it is today. I gathered some documentation over time and now I'll share it again to help the next crazy person that ventures down this road.

I'm not sure if any of the information is copy protected, but I found it free to download without any restrictions. Please let me know if I'm stepping on someone's toes and I'll do my best to apologize politely.

Lister manuals, CAV and Bosch injection sysrems and some other useful information:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/k1n449wkfwbcsnn/CS_tech_02.zip (http://www.mediafire.com/download/k1n449wkfwbcsnn/CS_tech_02.zip)
http://www.mediafire.com/download/fb4ye4avdom84an/SOM3.zip (http://www.mediafire.com/download/fb4ye4avdom84an/SOM3.zip)
http://www.mediafire.com/download/2xkza4zdyvj844c/CAVInjMan23.zip (http://www.mediafire.com/download/2xkza4zdyvj844c/CAVInjMan23.zip)
http://www.mediafire.com/download/a7dfqj6bn6021f2/CAVInjMan2-14.zip (http://www.mediafire.com/download/a7dfqj6bn6021f2/CAVInjMan2-14.zip)
http://www.mediafire.com/download/999z1869oj5vka1/Bosch_Diesel_Engineering.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/999z1869oj5vka1/Bosch_Diesel_Engineering.pdf)
http://www.mediafire.com/download/p4ocp0nnyj1am5m/Original_Lister_Instruction_And_Parts_List_Manual.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/p4ocp0nnyj1am5m/Original_Lister_Instruction_And_Parts_List_Manual.pdf)
http://www.mediafire.com/download/q498nf3q3wga8yw/Lister_Diesel_Manual.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/q498nf3q3wga8yw/Lister_Diesel_Manual.pdf)
http://www.mediafire.com/download/dbb2mbgib4y4etr/Lister_Parts_and_instructions.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/dbb2mbgib4y4etr/Lister_Parts_and_instructions.pdf)
http://www.mediafire.com/download/lbper22tvs5glcl/Lister_CS_part_numbers_DEVpdf.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/lbper22tvs5glcl/Lister_CS_part_numbers_DEVpdf.pdf)
http://www.mediafire.com/download/bgld00f720a8vw9/Lister_CS_Parts.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/bgld00f720a8vw9/Lister_CS_Parts.pdf)

And again just so all the important links are in one place:
Hoffberg Alternator wiring diagrams
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/u9rzyg6thvase1e,m07ub5gi9vmilgm,g15tvsl33pr32xi/shared (https://www.mediafire.com/folder/u9rzyg6thvase1e,m07ub5gi9vmilgm,g15tvsl33pr32xi/shared)

Stamford D8 and D11 alternators
http://www.mediafire.com/download/b3ys2i2mjjbdy1i/Stamford_D8_and_D11_Manual.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/b3ys2i2mjjbdy1i/Stamford_D8_and_D11_Manual.pdf)

Further reading for those rainy days....
49 uses for a farm engine
http://www.mediafire.com/download/6i6amkxh2ieerto/49_Uses_For_A_Farm_Engine.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/6i6amkxh2ieerto/49_Uses_For_A_Farm_Engine.pdf)
I think this must be printed and handed out at shows.
The expression on my face when someone stands there staring at a running engine and they ask: "what is this?" "what would you do with this?"
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9588/yls1o2ukrdsd5na4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/yls1o2ukrdsd5na/Puzzled.jpg)


Flywheel explosions:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/6sl36oc2sb9a6wf/Flywheel_Explosions.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/6sl36oc2sb9a6wf/Flywheel_Explosions.pdf)

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on September 26, 2016, 12:44:14 PM
The expression on my face when someone stands there staring at a running engine and they ask: "what is this?" "what would you do with this?"
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9588/yls1o2ukrdsd5na4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/yls1o2ukrdsd5na/Puzzled.jpg)


That little book was a very interesting read.  It reminds of a time when Internal combustion power was new and people still weren't' fully aware what they could do with it. The language and tone of the book is also from a time when the world was more sincere and caring. Even to the point Companies valued clients rather than went out of their way to have as little contact with them as possible as they do now.

It's amazing, people go to an engine show and don't know what they are looking at or what it's for.  I think it's a sign of the times and the ignorance that prevails these days.

I know that look only too well. It's one I have right before a facepalm and head shake at least everyday.
The dumb, ignorant, brain dead, idiotic questions I get asked on my YT vids of the same thing " what good is this thing, can you do anything with it?" on a vid that says something like  "for melting metal or powering a furnace"  Or "water heater powered by..."  is just mind Numbing.  There will also be a  further explanation of uses in the first line of the description and another line saying "look at my other vids to se what else I have done with these things. "
But some never do.

I will also get a heap of suggestions every week saying " Can you do a vid of this?" when there are already 10 right on my channel and it was the subject of the one I did previous and after that vid.
OK, I get that some people may have never seen what I do before but the video IS an explanation along with the written description.  Are you really THAT stupid you can't read or just too brain dead lazy?
It's fun to reply along the lines of " IF you are too lazy or stupid to read the description or watch the Vid, it's pointless going over it again" and then watch them arc up with indignant replies about how they haven't got time to read anything or look at other vids or whatever BS excuse but they feel entitled that you should take your time to give them a personal answer to their already answered question.

Honestly, in the interests of mankind and improving the gene pool, I would be happy to set aside an hour a day just to smack these idiots in the head with my fist to wake them up to themselves.

Thanks for the info, haven't looked at much but have enjoyed it already and appreciate you posting it.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: broncodriver99 on September 26, 2016, 02:28:15 PM
What a great bunch of documentation. Thanks for sharing.

I know that look as well. I got that look and the related questions when I was dragging my Lister home as well as with some other things that seem to have little value to others. You should have heard the questions when I drug home a 67 year old chest freezer that is now running perfectly and likely will for a long time to come.

The way I see it is some people derive pleasure from tinkering with old iron and bringing things from years past back to life, some people prefer to play Pokemon Go and buy new stuff every few years.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on October 16, 2016, 08:40:03 PM
 ??? :o :-\ :P ?? TEMPORARY INSANITY ??  ??? :o :-\ :P

I've ALWAYS had a soft spot for green machines with my first love being the green machine with the yellow wheels. I have this opportunity to buy a complete and running John Deere 40 (original, not restored), but funds to buy it is a bit low at the moment... The only way out would be if I sell the Lister - but I love the machine and I've just worked way too hard to get it to where it is today to just get rid of it... The only way I might consider selling is if I was offered a truck load of cash for it. I'm truly worried that I'll be sorry if I let it go because it's not something that is easily replaceable. I'll probably find an engine if I really tried, but the alternator is a special bit of kit I was blessed with.

Do any of my local comrades have and idea what a genset like this would sell for in South-Africa? I frequently see 6/1 engines being advertised for between R12000 - R15000 on Junkmail, so would it be unrealistic to expect to get double that for a complete working genset?  

Update: 25 October 2016
I spoke to one of the local Lister agents, and they confirmed that the genset should sell relatively easily for R25,000.00 (US$1810 @ R13.81 / US$).
And no. I'm not selling!!! I'll make another plan. The Lister is going nowhere! 

Here is the latest video I made of it: https://youtu.be/hD5t_I9awDk
  
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on November 14, 2016, 07:03:32 AM
With the Lister project done it feels almost strange not to be asking any questions or posting updates on this forum... I just have a small update on what I've been up to.

The Lister runs perfectly and it must feel like a celebrity with all the pictures that gets taken of it  ;D The minute someone sees it the hand automatically reaches into the pocket to grab hold of the phone  :laugh: I must now just make a plan to get the Lister emblems to finish it off properly and then take it to a show!

Anyway, after much scheming and lost sleep the John Deere is in the shed -- With the Lister safely in the garage  ;)

Playing with the Deere at home: https://youtu.be/nHv8jfOSLdw (https://youtu.be/nHv8jfOSLdw)
Luckily it's running and mostly complete but pleeeeeeeeeenty work to be done.

Cheers!
God bless and let's pray Trump does what he said he would!
M.



Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: vdubnut62 on November 14, 2016, 11:59:56 PM
Hey! Good on Ya Dieselsmoker!  I do so hope you enjoy the 40 for  a long time to come! I have had  a 70 diesel for many years, we have all enjoyed showing, parading, and just enjoying the old iron.
Ron.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 13, 2017, 11:56:27 AM
It's been a while since I've been here - except for the occasional visit to just have a peek to see what's going on on the forum. I've also been busy every now and then to replace all the broken picture links from when the gallery went down. What a job, but almost done.

I've recently started working on the 6/1 again to tick off the last small items from the to-do list.
The cooling tank rusted through (weird), so I had to make a new one and rubberised it this time. Water splashing out has always irritated me and I experimented with a couple of ideas while on the subject. I think I nailed it with the last attempt!  8)  I'll take some pictures over the weekend after it's finished off and post it here.

I'm not too keen on putting anti-freeze in the tank as splashes are bound to happen during transport and loading - and you all know what will happen to that precious paint job  :o  I wonder if I can put some soluble oil in the water to keep the water fresh and clean and stop corrosion inside the engine? It should work? (providing it doesn't eat the rubberising in the tank...) Anyone done this or know of something that will work?

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: mikenash on June 13, 2017, 02:48:40 PM


Y'know, our old mate Starfire - who ran that old 3/1 over on the West Coast of New Zealand as his sole generator for maybe seven or eight years - said leave some oil floating on top of the coolant water to radically reduce evaporative loss.

It wouldn't surprise me if it left an oily residue on the tank surface?

Or you could do as I have done and use a copper hot water cylinder?

Cheers
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on June 13, 2017, 03:30:58 PM

For many years I ran a mixture of engine oil and detergent in my Vehicles cooling system.

 I was basically trying to make soluble oil and seemed to achieve that. 
I worked. Never had any rust or corrosion in that cast iron engine. I replaced the thermostat housing shortly after I got it as it had corroded away and the rest of the system was pretty crusty as well. I put an acidic mid in the thing after disconnecting and bypassing the heater and  then spent a good amount of water, time and compressed air blowing out about a bucket of scale and crap.

Dissolved the oil with the detergent to make a white mix and put it in with a new radiator.  Never had a cooling problem in the 3.5 years I had the car and never saw a speck of rust or scale. and I looked.  Frequently.
From what I did see the oil seemed to permeate the scale that was left and neutralize it.  Bit like fish oil. Had some rust in that car when I got it and I blew fish oil into it with an old spray gun turned way up so the oil was like a fog and that rust never moved. I pointed it out to the guy I sold the car to who was very pleased I had done it as he always did it to his cars too.

Used the oil detergent mix in in the next car I got as well in substitute of coolant and never saw any corrosion in that aluminum/ cast iron engine either.

Oil in cooling systems isn't supposed to be a good thing ( or is that steam engine Boilers?)  but worked fine for me.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: AdeV on June 13, 2017, 04:06:00 PM
Quote
Oil in cooling systems isn't supposed to be a good thing ( or is that steam engine Boilers?)  but worked fine for me.

Unexpected oil in the cooling system is suggestive of a head gasket failure & is therefore not a good thing.... similarly coolant in the oil (mayonnaise in the filler cap).

Obviously if you put the oil there yourself, that's a different matter!

How about using central heating inhibitor in a car cooling system? That's designed to prevent rust/scale, on dissimilar metals too (copper pipe/steel radiators/brass valves). I haven't looked at it myself, it rarely gets hot enough in the UK to bother a modern car's cooling system.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 14, 2017, 11:12:07 AM
Y'know, our old mate Starfire - who ran that old 3/1 over on the West Coast of New Zealand as his sole generator for maybe seven or eight years - said leave some oil floating on top of the coolant water to radically reduce evaporative loss.

It wouldn't surprise me if it left an oily residue on the tank surface?
Makes sense that the layer of oil will achieve that, but I see two potential problems with that:
At work we have various fairly large lathes and turning centres with water coolant systems. Over time the mineral lubricating oil used on slideways and some leaks on the machines forms a oil layer on top of the water. The moment the surface is sealed off to "breathe", the water quickly goes bad. AND STINKS!!! There are nowadays anti-bacterial additives in the soluble oils to combat this, but the best fix is to skim the oil off every now and then with a vacuum cleaner.

It would probably not make a massive difference, but there will be loss of cooling capacity if the water cannot evaporate. I think I mentioned this earlier - my '42 Fairbanks-Morse 8Hp engine is hopper cooled, and it is required for the water to boil to achieve proper cooling. Something like ant-boil / anti-freeze in the water will thus cause the engine to overheat. A Lister can of course never get THAT hot!

Or you could do as I have done and use a copper hot water cylinder?
Oh yes! I love the look of the copper cylinders! But I can't find one to save my life... First prize for me would be a brass or copper radiator... But for now I'm making the best of the old grease drum  :D :D


For many years I ran a mixture of engine oil and detergent in my Vehicles cooling system.

I was basically trying to make soluble oil and seemed to achieve that. 
I worked. Never had any rust or corrosion in that cast iron engine.  <<SNIP>>

Dissolved the oil with the detergent to make a white mix and put it in with a new radiator.  Never had a cooling problem in the 3.5 years I had the car and never saw a speck of rust or scale. and I looked.  Frequently.
Interesting idea... I'm busy exchanging e-mails with one of our local oil suppliers and it seems like they have something synthetic that will do the job BUT at a price. Pity communication is not too good so I can't tell you much more now - I'll probably have to go there when I get time.


From what I did see the oil seemed to permeate the scale that was left and neutralize it.  Bit like fish oil. Had some rust in that car when I got it and I blew fish oil into it with an old spray gun turned way up so the oil was like a fog and that rust never moved. I pointed it out to the guy I sold the car to who was very pleased I had done it as he always did it to his cars too. <<SNIP>>
So I've never worked with fish oil before and inSTINCtively (excuse the pun) I'm thinking that your car now smells like dead fish??  :P ;D :o
Why fish oil? Does it go dry or sticky - unlike mineral oil?


Quote
How about using central heating inhibitor in a car cooling system? That's designed to prevent rust/scale, on dissimilar metals too (copper pipe/steel radiators/brass valves). I haven't looked at it myself, it rarely gets hot enough in the UK to bother a modern car's cooling system.
I'll never try out anything other than the OEM coolant additives in my car. It works well in our extremes of cold winters and hot summers, and the cost is not that high either. The coolant has a number of jobs to to, and if you miss one the repair bill could be ugly. (Anti-boil / anti-freeze / anti-corrosion + Water pump lube)
I recently changed the coolant on my 4.0 V6 Toyota. First coolant service was scheduled for 170,000 kms. The slow service frequency gives me one less thing to worry about. I like that  ;) More time to tinker with my toys.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: AdeV on June 14, 2017, 12:38:22 PM

For many years I ran a mixture of engine oil and detergent in my Vehicles cooling system.

I was basically trying to make soluble oil and seemed to achieve that. 
I worked. Never had any rust or corrosion in that cast iron engine.  <<SNIP>>

Dissolved the oil with the detergent to make a white mix and put it in with a new radiator.  Never had a cooling problem in the 3.5 years I had the car and never saw a speck of rust or scale. and I looked.  Frequently.
Interesting idea... I'm busy exchanging e-mails with one of our local oil suppliers and it seems like they have something synthetic that will do the job BUT at a price. Pity communication is not too good so I can't tell you much more now - I'll probably have to go there when I get time.


I use this stuff on my CNC mill: http://www.lubetechshop.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=25_51&products_id=249

I've had the same mix sat in the sump for over 2 years now (occasionally it gets topped up due to evaporative or sprayed-all-over-the-operator losses...), no bio or stink problems at all. It does have some slideway oil floating around in it, but presumably not enough to form a skin (it's the anaerobic microbes which case the bad smells). If you're UK based and want a litre of the stuff to play with, let me know, I've still got some in the barrel.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on June 14, 2017, 12:44:43 PM
Interesting idea... I'm busy exchanging e-mails with one of our local oil suppliers and it seems like they have something synthetic that will do the job BUT at a price.

Not sure synthetic was even around back then . If it was, I either hadn't heard of it or certainly couldn't afford it!
I did do it throughly and used only new engine oil.  :0)

Quote
So I've never worked with fish oil before and inSTINCtively (excuse the pun) I'm thinking that your car now smells like dead fish??  :P ;D :o
Why fish oil? Does it go dry or sticky - unlike mineral oil?

Fish oil is a drying oil. It takes a long time but eventually it skins over.  Panel beater mate of mine used to suggest mixing in a tiny bit of turps to keep wet longer and let it permeate better. I used to thin it then put it in a high pressure paint gun and give it full tank pressure. It blew the stuff in like a fog which got into seams in panels and doors etc. You would see drips on the rocker panels and coming from different places for a couple of weeks which was good because you knew it was further coating everything.
 The stuff I used back then was regular oil and you could smell it for maybe a week or so but wasn't too bad. Of course the smell of burning rubber back then was a daily occurrence then for most young guys so the smell of fish oil was never too bad.
Last lot I used on one of my old mercs was deodorized.  Could hardly smell that at all. 

Guess if you were real worried about the odour you could always put some fragrant oil in with it.
Eucalyptus would be very Orstraian for us down under. Maybe Rose petal oil for Californians and sump oil for people who live in Detroit?
For the poms maybe Chamomile or peppermint.  Ed would like his Miscreant scented because he would get a warm fuzzy feeling every time he got a whiff knowing the source thereof that was ground up and distilled.  :0)

Veg oil also dries off and goes plastic like. Will protect for about 2 years in the sun and rain before it dries, peels and flakes off again.  I have Drums I use for veg oil processing and they will last out in the weather till after I'm gone that's for sure with the coating they have.  I have made some rudimentary tools playing blacksmith that I have oil quenched. I have noticed they never seem to go rusty. Not sure if that something to do with being in the fire or the oil quenching but similar bits of steel these were made from go rusty when under cover and these other bits are left in the open.

I remember my grandfather painting our brand new Timber fence with sump oil and Diesel much to my grandmothers annoyace. That ponged a while!
He was a bus driver so got loads of oil and old diesel if he wanted.  The guy next door was in cahoots and did his side as well. That was when I was a kid. I sold that place in my mid '30s and the fence was still in good shape. It got a new coat of oil every few years While Grandad was around and eventually some paint got mixed in with it which miraculously turned the fence a pretty decent brown colour somehow.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 14, 2017, 01:38:11 PM
I use this stuff on my CNC mill: http://www.lubetechshop.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=25_51&products_id=249

I've had the same mix sat in the sump for over 2 years now (occasionally it gets topped up due to evaporative or sprayed-all-over-the-operator losses...), no bio or stink problems at all. It does have some slideway oil floating around in it, but presumably not enough to form a skin (it's the anaerobic microbes which case the bad smells). If you're UK based and want a litre of the stuff to play with, let me know, I've still got some in the barrel.
I think this is definitely in the right direction of what I have in mind.
Thanks for the offer, but I'm at the other end of the globe... (South Africa)
 
Not sure synthetic was even around back then. If it was, I either hadn't heard of it or certainly couldn't afford it!
I did do it thoroughly and used only new engine oil.  :0)
"Back then" nothing was synthetic... Now everything is and that's why we play with Listers and not Hondas*  ;)
*I do own a couple - lol
They quoted me R90 /liter and at a 95:5 (or 19:1) I'll need roughly 3 liters. (That is R270.00 or 17.55 Pounds or $21.39)

.........Of course the smell of burning rubber back then was a daily occurrence then for most young guys so the smell of fish oil was never too bad.
This story sound so familiar. Now the focus is more on bling and sound systems  ::)

Guess if you were real worried about the odour you could always put some fragrant oil in with it.
Eucalyptus would be very Orstraian for us down under. Maybe Rose petal oil for Californians and sump oil for people who live in Detroit?
For the poms maybe Chamomile or peppermint.  Ed would like his Miscreant scented because he would get a warm fuzzy feeling every time he got a whiff knowing the source thereof that was ground up and distilled.  :0)
;D ;D

Veg oil also dries off and goes plastic like. .......
I use "Boiled Linseed Oil" to protect wood and metal surfaces. I also absolutely love the smell of it. It takes forever to dry properly, but it forms a real good protective layer.

Here is a video of my Fairbanks-Morse ZC208
(Sorry the video is a little dark)
https://youtu.be/9nOrPSNdLd0 (https://youtu.be/9nOrPSNdLd0)

I'll have to let you in on a little secret of mine to explain why it looks the way it does: When I rebuild this engine (from scrap), I wanted to retain some of it's old world looks and not paint and polish it like I've done with the Lister. It had to look a bit like it was still in it's working clothes, but it still had to look nice. Unfortunately the original paint was all gone and it was rusted red... so I cleaned it and started experimenting. I ended up polishing the whole engine with Zebo Stove Polish (Terrible black stuff!! Tip: wear gloves). After that I sponged the whole engine and the engine cart with Boiled Linseed Oil. Absolutely nobody has been able to explain the finish on it  ;)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselspanner on June 14, 2017, 02:17:19 PM
A few years back I worked on a dumb barge that had been built in WWll

When I asked how come it was was so well preserved I was told that each 'void space' had 40 gallons of fish oil dropped in it, and was then  flooded with fresh (rather than salt) water.
As it was pumped dry the fish oil, laying on top, coated everything, everywhere. The last bit to be pumped out was the oil and this was put into the next compartment and the process repeated.

Cheap and cheerful with little labour cost.

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Tom on June 14, 2017, 06:58:04 PM
I have a 3M body shutz gun for spraying fender wells with undercoat. This spray gun has a 3' (one meter for you metric folks) flexible plastic sprayer extension with sprayers all around the tip. I used this extension and a can of 3M rust preventative to spray all the interior compartments of my '74 IH Scout in 2001. This has completely stopped all the rust, well in those areas anyway.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on June 15, 2017, 02:20:03 AM
I have a 3M body shutz gun for spraying fender wells with undercoat.  This has completely stopped all the rust, well in those areas anyway.

I had a small tin roofed Porch on my last place.  Been there forever and being completely flat, was starting to rust through.
I got a big tin of that body Shutz stuff, added some fist oil to thin it a little and painted the whole roof with it.  Sealed it up perfect, halted the rust and saved me what would have been a real PIA job replacing the tin.

For rust prevention, I think fish oil is the best thing ever. You never saw a rusty Fish and they are in the water all the time!    ;D
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on June 15, 2017, 02:55:02 AM

.........Of course the smell of burning rubber back then was a daily occurrence then for most young guys so the smell of fish oil was never too bad.
This story sound so familiar. Now the focus is more on bling and sound systems  ::) 

In my day ( just after the advent of electricity) You had a 6 or an 8. I was poor and only had a 6 but I was a little bit smart, I did the suspension and the brakes which back then was cheaper than engine mods.  Most guys could get me in a straight line but put in just one bend and I had them every time.

Now days it's all 4 Cyl with turbos that make an ear splitting racket and are impractical for anything including driving any distance as they lower the things so much the vertebre in their back gives up after 30 Min and the racket would drive you nuts.   I also notice the level of irresponsibility is incredible.  Sure, we did stupid things But I never recalled anyone I know lighting them up in the middle of peak hour traffic on a main road like I see now.   Rather than do anything in "public" we used to head to the uninhabited industrial areas on a Friday/ Saturday Night/ weekend and have our stupidity there.   Even as young and dumb and full of Completely stupid ideas, we weren't that brain dead to go screaming past peoples homes/kids playing/through traffic etc that is the norm now.

I love watching the YT vids with idiots in hot cars showing off in crowds and putting the things into poles or ditches or brink walls. Unfortunately there are also plenty where they put them into other cars and people. No one I knew EVER did that because somehow as stupid as we were, we weren't that dam stupid.

Of course there are still those that Drive V8's. Most of the real Dipshits round here Drive Mercedes C63's. It's what all the successful Drug dealers with any Cred drive and there are no shortage of the filthy scum round here let me tell you. The kingpins seem to Drive G wagons. Not so many of those around and the people driving them could only be doing one thing to afford them at their age and with obvious lack of intelligence.
 The little Cowardly POS next door has a Range Rover sport. Just got a new one but put the same loud exhaust on it as the other one and blacked out all the windows. I think thats so people can't see what a short little neanderthal he is that's has obviously partaken of too much of his own product and damaged the 3 brain cells he started off with.   Can't wait to move and put him in with the cops although I doubt they will do anything.
What goes on round here is so obvious they would have to be in cahoots to have not done anything about it.

Here is a video of my Fairbanks-Morse ZC208
(Sorry the video is a little dark)
https://youtu.be/9nOrPSNdLd0 (https://youtu.be/9nOrPSNdLd0)  [/quote]

I love that look on your engine! That's serious hard arse old skool.
I am wanting to do a bit of decorative metal work soon. I'll have a go at finishing the work the same way. I pointed that look out to my wife on a candelabra thing we saw in a shop on the weekend and she loves it too.  Now I know how to do it and can score some brownie points. :0)

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 17, 2017, 05:12:50 PM
.......In my day ( just after the advent of electricity) You had a 6 or an 8. I was poor and only had a 6 but I was a little bit smart, I did the suspension and the brakes which back then was cheaper than engine mods.  Most guys could get me in a straight line but put in just one bend and I had them every time.
I was born in the wrong era.... I could choose between a 4, a 4 or a 4...  >:(

I love watching the YT vids with idiots in hot cars showing off in crowds and putting the things into poles or ditches or brink walls. Unfortunately there are also plenty where they put them into other cars and people. No one I knew EVER did that because somehow as stupid as we were, we weren't that dam stupid.
Ha! If I'm not watching engine or tractor videos I also end up at the sideways Mustangs.  ;D

Of course there are still those that Drive V8's. Most of the real Dipshits round here Drive Mercedes C63's. It's what all the successful Drug dealers with any Cred drive and there are no shortage of the filthy scum round here let me tell you. The kingpins seem to Drive G wagons......
Of course nothing wrong with those cars, but almost none of the owners appreciates them. It's all about image. Down here we have other scum driving these cars, but lets leave that discussion for another day. I'm in a good mood at the moment and things can get ugly if I start...

I love that look on your engine! That's serious hard arse old skool.
I am wanting to do a bit of decorative metal work soon. I'll have a go at finishing the work the same way. I pointed that look out to my wife on a candelabra thing we saw in a shop on the weekend and she loves it too.  Now I know how to do it and can score some brownie points. :0)
Thanks. I had to mention before - the gloss finish you see in the video fades to a matt, and adds to the old look.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 17, 2017, 05:47:23 PM
Rewinding a couple of months, and finishing off those small unfinished jobs:

(Swivel design and manufacturing on page 7)
The weight of the engine and the snug fit of the swivel assembly makes the keeper plate almost unnecessary, but if I was ever to transport the engine, the danger and possibility of the swivel parting becomes a possibility.

Trolley swivel pin protruding:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/b941/3ufca5yocp42m2a4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/3ufca5yocp42m2a/20170616_141245_800x450.jpg)

I machined a recessed keeper washer from a piece of plate I had lying around:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/e031/xpfnexbcg69thxr4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/xpfnexbcg69thxr/20170616_141215_800x450.jpg)

Feeling much better now. No chance of the swivel jumping out. I'm very pleased with the smoothness and rigidity of the swivel. I have to maneuver the trolley down a small ramp to get it out of the garage, and even under a cross axle situation there is no binding.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/ac0a/49yyiuyazt4a8yo4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/49yyiuyazt4a8yo/20170616_144450_800x450.jpg)

Next: Air cleaner.
(Air cleaner installation, page 9)

This is what the initial installation looked like:
Of course the pre-cleaner can never function properly orientated like this...
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/17d9/2v11zbwohappcdo4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/2v11zbwohappcdo/20160516_164813_1024x576.jpg)

I was very fortunate to get a 76mm Donaldson elbow to mount the pre-cleaner right way up!
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/338c/b9ry445rc171awr4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/b9ry445rc171awr/20170617_153539_800x450.jpg)

and lastly...
the "anti-splash" tank.
That was the original drum's lid. I cut of the tabs and put a hole in the center. Banged it into the drum and rubberized it in position.
I am now able to increase the water level and no splashes! The drum is still able to breathe to let steam off to get rid of excess heat.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/5c70/wlsw7c6x48rt1g84g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/wlsw7c6x48rt1g8/20170616_144530_800x450.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on June 17, 2017, 07:50:42 PM
Good looking work! Thanks for the pictures!  :)

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on June 17, 2017, 07:55:07 PM
That's a very nice setup!  I'm envious of your SOM type flywheels.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on June 18, 2017, 08:22:56 AM

I very neat and well thought out and engineered setup.
Sort of stuff I could sit and look at all day and never get tired of seeing.

Really nice work. You should be suitably proud of.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselspanner on June 18, 2017, 11:09:29 AM
Nice!

Stef
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Callum4000 on June 22, 2017, 11:57:56 AM
Hi, it's Callum here. I'm 16 and have just recently bought a lister cs the latest project, but the plate is missing on it and I was wondering how else to tell the hp? Any help would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on June 22, 2017, 01:31:00 PM
First and most obvious would be flywheel styles... do yours have spokes? If so, will be a 6/1 (or smaller).

There are sometimes casting dates apparent on the outside of the cylinder castings... a picture or two would be quite helpful.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Callum4000 on June 22, 2017, 07:55:44 PM
I'll have a couple of photos by tonight, if its any help 9-7-92 NW is cast into the cylinder head.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on July 30, 2017, 05:43:20 PM
So at long last the Lister's alcohol problem is something of the past. The Magnum Cream Liqueur fuel tank is gone!

A friend of mine found this old tank on a farm lying in a field along with some other scrap.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/a212/3t15326cchegfwn4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/3t15326cchegfwn/Lister_Tank.jpg)

Badly rusted and full of dents - had to silver solder some holes closed where the tank rusted through.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/efdb/fznmhock50gm67n4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/fznmhock50gm67n/20170729_095649_600x338.jpg)

Quickly slapped together a fuel fitting. I was promised a brass fuel cock that I'll fit later.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/2bb9/xsedajwr9hqzq2l4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/xsedajwr9hqzq2l/20170729_095703_600x338.jpg)

Fabricating the brackets:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/daa5/gp1bvjpegawz0xz4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/gp1bvjpegawz0xz/20170729_095640_600x338.jpg)

At the panelbeater:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/4756/9ey774idgu3rogw4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/9ey774idgu3rogw/20170729_122402_600x338.jpg)

It's got a tank!!!! 8) ;D
I was lucky to find a cap at the lawnmower shop that fitted just perfectly.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/411c/236tb2byc0cxmvq4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/236tb2byc0cxmvq/20170730_172736_600x338.jpg)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/732b/ah1oe56lzxs55674g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/ah1oe56lzxs5567/20170730_172723_600x338.jpg)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/5a77/a8q2t3upo7m8g1w4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/a8q2t3upo7m8g1w/20170730_172808_600x338.jpg)

Next to-do is the wiring. Looking at the quotes I got thus far I'll have to rob a bank to afford everything... The plan it to fit a volt meter, ammeter, hour meter and a reed frequency meter along with a plug outlet. 
Stickers ordered from SEP a week or so ago. (They should arrive here in about 3 weeks' time.)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselgman on July 30, 2017, 06:38:28 PM
Very nice job! Looks like it could have been an original part!

dieselgman
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Samo on July 30, 2017, 10:19:29 PM
That's very slick, I'm Brunswick green with envy :)
You've done a great job of the restoration!
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on August 01, 2017, 11:56:56 AM
Thanks for the kind words guys!
I think I've said this before: Not a lot of people have any idea how much time, patience and effort it takes to do a restoration like this. That said, I did it the hard way by making parts and fixing everything instead of just buying new parts like is more commonly done - It's a lot of hard work, but all the more satisfying to see it taking shape in the end.
   
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on August 01, 2017, 12:15:20 PM

Quote
Next to-do is the wiring. Looking at the quotes I got thus far I'll have to rob a bank to afford everything... The plan it to fit a volt meter, ammeter, hour meter and a reed frequency meter along with a plug outlet. 

Gauges can be stupidly expensive.
I have bought some old style ones from Fleabay and been far more impressed than I predicted. Testing them with good Multimeters showed them to be surprisingly accurate and the one that wasn't was easily adjusted and held true through it's range. I have got analogue and electronic ones and they have all been great.

One electronic meter did let the magic smoke out after about 5 min but it was replaced without problem and the replacement has been going  5 months now non stop.  I do have a feeling I may have miswired the first one because I thought I miswired the 2nd only to discover it was correct but not the same as I had the first.   :-[

Wire is certainly not cheap. I have been pulling it out of cars at the wrecking yard for a while. Can be a lot of frigging around even just getting the sheathing and tape off it but I have had too much time anyway. You only get limited longer lengths but for doing this sort of thing a meter or so is usually plenty for what you need.

With mains wiring, I have discovered its often cheaper to use 2 lengths of the lighter Gauge and be over spec that it is to run the spec you need.

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on October 21, 2017, 07:50:02 PM
If I knew then what I know now I would name this thread different...
Maybe, "The slowest 6/1 restoration ever"?? LoL  ;D   (It is after all a low speed engine)

Perhaps progress would be better if I didn't have to do things over and over so many times! Lesson learned and now on cooling tank number 3...

On tank number 2 I used a bitumen-based sealant that got really soft and tacky when the water got hot. Eventually water worked through the coating and the tank quickly rusted through again and sprung a leak.

This time round I got some rubberizing that is typically used on the load beds of pickup trucks. So far so good. Looks like this is really durable stuff. I also painted a couple of layers on the wheels and so far the new "tyres" are holding up excellent. No more metal-to-paving crunching. I also used the opportunity to add a tank valve so it's easier to drain the water now.

Nice thick rough rubber on the inside of the tank. Here busy with the first fill.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/4e7d/euy2qvia2hv8ba64g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/euy2qvia2hv8ba6/20171013_145044_600x338.jpg)

Brass tank valve. (What a mission it was to find a brass one!)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/5f34/j84b29m0bx7k59v4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/j84b29m0bx7k59v/20171021_200929_600x338.jpg)

Brass water fittings also polished up this time round instead of being painted green with the rest of the tank.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6209/0ql1k239z66v1bw4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/0ql1k239z66v1bw/20171021_200904_338x600.jpg)


With that done I could take a step forward again.
Electrical installation.

Brand new panel. Actually a bit bigger than I need, but this one was a lot cheaper than the smaller size panel  ???
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/8463/4svzlveoysg1cyv4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/4svzlveoysg1cyv/20171020_154655_600x338.jpg)

Slight frame modification to allow me to bolt the panel down properly.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/7263/81t7zagagvke7fr4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/81t7zagagvke7fr/20171020_154659_600x338.jpg)

I bought a normal (fairly heavy duty) 16A plug socket at the hardware store
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/8f70/av7659iym13ndgu4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/av7659iym13ndgu/20171021_100800_600x338.jpg)

....and stripped all the metal bits off:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d43b/m22k901kxnckkyz4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/m22k901kxnckkyz/20171021_100821_338x600.jpg)

Some drilling and filing:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/0ee3/2iol32ytvzpd5ql4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/2iol32ytvzpd5ql/20171021_103240_600x338.jpg)

...and we have a power take-off!! (It looks pretty lonely down there in the corner)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/137d/7oax5eniwabboe34g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/7oax5eniwabboe3/20171021_150643_600x338.jpg)     

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/483e/2c1r8tc96jjlbks4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/2c1r8tc96jjlbks/20171021_150650_600x338.jpg)

So the idea is to buy all those yummy gauges and meters (when my ship comes in) and install them in the panel door. There is also space inside for an overload, maybe a earth leakage and who knows what. I have ideas - but of course I'll share when I get there. I'll very likely come pick some brains here sooner or later.

Its now 8+ weeks that I'm waiting for the Lister logos to land here from SEP...  :( I'm starting to loose hope...

EDIT:
The Donaldson also got re-branded. It is now a Lister air cleaner  ;)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6197/ohkj30e2cir1c454g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/ohkj30e2cir1c45/20171013_145105_600x338.jpg)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/2376/dtjh3arely7t0x54g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/dtjh3arely7t0x5/20171013_145116_600x338.jpg)
Cheers!
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Samo on October 22, 2017, 09:27:50 PM
Nice work all round. Might be slow - nothing wrong with that and your restoration looks a treat.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on October 22, 2017, 11:35:10 PM

Geez that's a nice looking setup!

I think some of us go too far with the restos. Time they are finished they are far too nice to be actually put to work.  Only fit to be taken out of the Lounge room and given a run while guests sit round and watch and listen to them before being put back inside with the rest of the fine Furnishings.

Can't see my old roid ever being like that but maybe one day I'll be able to buy one that's worthy of art status.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: AdeV on October 23, 2017, 08:14:46 AM
Can't see my old roid ever being like that but maybe one day I'll be able to buy one that's worthy of art status.

I reckon that's the trick glort - have 2 engines, one in working clothes, the other a prom queen...

Dieselsmoker - that's a fine looking rig! I don't think you can call it a restoration any more, there's no way even a genuine Lister came out of the factory looking that good! Is that an intake silencer I see? How much of a difference does it make to the running noise? I have an Indian oil bath filter on mine, if it cuts a decent amount of noise out, I'd quite like to make a silencer like yours.

Cheers!
Ade.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on October 23, 2017, 11:36:25 AM
Thank you for the compliments guys. Its good inspiration to keep at it.

Nice work all round. Might be slow - nothing wrong with that and your restoration looks a treat.
I must always add that I also restored my house at the same time. At times months literally passed that I couldn't touch the engine - frustrating times...

Geez that's a nice looking setup!

I think some of us go too far with the restos. Time they are finished they are far too nice to be actually put to work.  Only fit to be taken out of the Lounge room and given a run while guests sit round and watch and listen to them before being put back inside with the rest of the fine Furnishings.

Can't see my old roid ever being like that but maybe one day I'll be able to buy one that's worthy of art status.

How far to go with a restoration? I always ask myself that question and my answer is always "not far enough"... the better you finish it, the more little imperfections start standing out. I've stood back many a times thinking "one day I'll strip it down again and do it properly" :D :D

The two schools of thinking are to either to
 - get it to as close as possible to factory finish, or
 - get is as perfect as possible.

Depending on what it is, I could agree with both. Some things look nice with a "rough finish" showing what it would have looked like back in the day, and others look better all polished up. My Fairbanks ZC-208 is in it's "working clothes" and it looks great, but that look, in my oppinion, would not suit the Lister... or would it?? At the end of the day it doesn't really matter - they all look awesome!  ;)  I agree that all the little imperfections gives each engine it's own unique character - with a shiny finish the character is lost and one engine then looks like the next. That said - nobody designs anything not to be finished off properly - the end result is mostly a costing decision to balance appearance and function. Had Lister spend two more days per engine to fettle and paint each engine to perfection, it would have added no value to the function, and it would be so expensive they would probably not have sold a single engine! I am a planner in the engineering industry so I experience this every day in practice. I wonder what my Lister is worth if I put a hourly rate on my work done  :o

For me this engine is a showpiece - that can actually be put to work if need be, but 99% of the rest of it's life it will be a toy. To compare this to what most of you off-grid guys are doing is not fair.

I hinted to my wife tha I want to pull the trolley into the lounge but she laughed like I was making a joke. I suspect a big misunderstanding is on it's way  :laugh:

Can't see my old roid ever being like that but maybe one day I'll be able to buy one that's worthy of art status.

I reckon that's the trick glort - have 2 engines, one in working clothes, the other a prom queen...

Dieselsmoker - that's a fine looking rig! I don't think you can call it a restoration any more, there's no way even a genuine Lister came out of the factory looking that good! Is that an intake silencer I see? How much of a difference does it make to the running noise? I have an Indian oil bath filter on mine, if it cuts a decent amount of noise out, I'd quite like to make a silencer like yours.

Cheers!
Ade.

Yup - they never looked like this  ;)
I like the way you think - great excuse to get another engine. One to work, one to show.

No it's not a silencer, but it does silence! To be frank - zero intake sound. There was a short discussion and a couple of pictures about this a few pages back: http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7426.120

This is a "Donaldson" cyclone aircleaner with pre-cleaner. You would find this type of aircleaner on most tractors and other equipment that operate in dusty conditions. The air is first sucked through a set of angled veins to centrifugally remove heavy particles and dump them in the transparrent bowl. Hence the reference to "cyclone". The air then enters the big cannister where it yet again gets spun through a cyclone. Heavy particles are thrown to the outside and falls down all the way to the bottom into a removable bowl. Air passes through a primary dry paper element, and then trough a secondary dry paper element with finer filtration. The super clean air is then ready to be messed up again by combustion  ;D. These filters offer massive fitration capacity and effieciency. Maintenance is to periodically clean the two bowls and once in a blue moon one could clean off the dust on the outside of the paper element. Replacing the paper elements of course depends on where it was operated, but in most cases they would last many many years due to the effecient pre-cleaning. On this Lister they would never need replacing. 


Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Samo on October 23, 2017, 09:54:01 PM
So well done, It looks like that's the way it should have been designed...

Imitation is flattery right? ... there's a tractor wrecker just out of town, might go have a poke around.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on October 25, 2017, 04:19:08 PM
Ah! A partner in crime  8)
I was lucky to find a tractor in running condition. I won't start with the restoration until the Lister is complete, but in the meantime I can at least play with it.

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c95f/vmas8bqi7inaflf4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/vmas8bqi7inaflf/20171025_154445_640x360.jpg)
I started wiring the panel with what I had laying around.
I need to get a neutral bar and a smaller overload breaker. The one I have is rated at 15A. Although the alternator can do 15A, the engine won't. With the Lister only doing 550 rpm at 1460m above sea level it's not performing like it could. Loading it to 2200W, the exhaust is black and the pump is almost fully open.
A=W/V
A=2200/220
Current=10A

I've been thinking about incorporating protection for external circuitry as well. I see there are commercially available units that monitor over/under voltage as well as over/under frequency. I suppose any one of the two is good enough? Of the ones' I Googled, the voltage monitor seems like the best option. It looks like the frequency monitors need steady input voltages whereas the voltage monitors are powered from the source they monitor. The voltage monitor has an internal relay that can be used to operate a contactor. Anywhere outside the adjustable upper and lower limits the contactor will be open protecting external circuits.

All these gadgets of course come at a price, so perhaps an opportunity for an Arduino project?   

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on October 25, 2017, 06:01:25 PM
Watch out for the commercial under/over voltage monitors-  most will not work with a ST type (spikey) waveform. 

After finding a couple commercial units worthless, on my neighbor's setup we had to go to a more expensive Siemans true RMS voltage monitoring relay to trip a small latching relay controlling our load shed contactor- it works great.

I use RMS calculation via AVR microcontroller (Arduino processor) for my inverter.  With the 10 bit A/D and rectified AC scaled to 5 V, and 32 bit calculations, it has adequate resolution to keep voltage within 1%.  It only samples 64 samples per full wave, as the processor is quite busy with real time wave shaping. For a dedicated processor to do RMS voltage monitoring, there is plenty of RMS sampling code out there.  Mine is dependent with my other real time code which is timer interrupt driven. 
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on October 25, 2017, 07:14:40 PM
Thanks for the warning and saving me some school fees!  I never even considered the fact that a voltage monitor could be sensitive to waveform...

 
I use RMS calculation via AVR microcontroller (Arduino processor) for my inverter.  With the 10 bit A/D and rectified AC scaled to 5 V,....


I more or less follow what you are saying, but
Rectified AC? I suppose you halve wave rectify?
What do you mean with "scaled to 5V"? Did you just use a step down transformer?

Seems like I have a lot of reading ahead of me  ::)


Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on October 26, 2017, 02:54:55 AM
To get more resolution with the 10 bit A/D, and to get a faster answer every half wave,  I did full wave rectification.
Some schemes put the scaled AC wave centered  at 2.5V, with peaks at 5 and 0v,  but this costs you over 1 bit of  resolution.   There are many different ways to do it that all work.  The complication in my inverter software case is that I wanted the computed RMS value in real time (8.33ms or a half wave), which gives me most of a half wave to shuffle the new waveform timing data from flash memory to the ram for the next full wave start. While that is happening the processor is banging out via timer interrupt table  the waveform control in real time.  I'm working the little 8 bit AVR chip pretty hard.

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on October 26, 2017, 03:15:41 AM
I've extracted some of my C code for RMS calculation via Arduino processor.
Because of more critical real time things happening, this uses timer 2 and NO interrupts so that it doesn't interfere with the critical timing of the inverter waveform generation.  I hope this is helpful.  My own AVR uses slightly filtered peak voltage in analog to determine over and under voltage, using analog timing as well to trip the load shed breaker.  If you PM me I can share that hand draw schematic for you if you'd like to roll your own analog circuit solution instead of an arduino based one.  It is only a couple 4000 series CMOS and a quad op amp and a lot of "glue" and trim pots.

Code: [Select]
  // initialize Timer2

  TCCR2A = 0;        //normal operation
  TCCR2B = B00000111;//timer2 prescale of 1024. 64 usec/count at 16MHz clock.
  //                   130 counts per 8.88ms.
  TCNT2 = 0;         //zero timer2 count
  TIMSK2 = 0;        //no interrupts for timer2

  interrupts();            // enable all interrupts
}





void loop()
{
  unsigned long SumV;
  unsigned long Vlong;
  unsigned int RMS;
  byte i;



  //RMS calculations
  //Sync with H-bridge output

  //AD 10 bit value of 1023 should equal 400 volts peak. So RMS goal (230V)= 588.

#define MaxIndex 62

  while (!StartWave) {}// wait for start of sine wave flag set in ISR

  TCNT2 = 0; //reset RMS sample timer counter (timer2)

  if (SwitchTimerFlag) //start of waveform now change index for ISR for new voltage
  {

    Tindx = NewIndex;
    SwitchTimerFlag = false;
  }
  StartWave = false; // reset interrupt routine flag

  // Now collect one half wave worth of RMS voltage-65 samples

  SumV = 0;

  for ( i = 1;  i < 131;  i = i + 2 ) // 64 usec per count so 128 usec per sample
  {
    Vlong = analogRead(A0); //compiler requires long for a sq() or multiply to work properly
    SumV = SumV + sq(Vlong);

    while (TCNT2 < i) {}; // hang for next timer2 count
  }

  // done with real time samples, now calculate RMS and load new TimeTable entry into Timer array
  // digitalWrite(11, !digitalRead(11)); //debug

  RMS = sqrt ( SumV / 65); // approx 512 should be middle of desired voltage range

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on October 29, 2017, 07:18:34 PM


(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/f84e/81105ca3txk5lp54g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/81105ca3txk5lp5/20171029_200445-640x360.jpg)

Things don't always work out as planned it seems...

First setback was the overload breaker. I got a "normal" 10A breaker of the shelve and installed it along with a neutral bar to tidy the wiring up a bit. To test the breaker I fired up the engine and lined up some appliances to load the alternator with while giving the old girl some time to build up a bit of heat. Great anticipation sometimes leads to great dissapointment. The breaker reacts too slowley. As soon as the engine speed drops, the voltage drops and the current - well yes you get the picture. There is now way I can get the breaker to trip. Any ideas? I'm not sure if there are differently specced breakers available or if a smaller one will do the trick?

Second problem was the Arduino. I build some circuits on the breadboard and decided to o follow the route of full-wave rectification. If you look at the picture - on the left-hand side I took the 12V tap from the transformer and put it through a bridge rectifier and a voltage regulator with some caps to smooth things out to serve as a 5V supply to power the Arduino.

In the middle is a 5V relay that will eventually be used to operate the contactor.

On thr right-hand side the 6V tap on the transformer is rectified for measurement by the Arduino. The 50K pot is to calibrate the circuit so that the 5VDC that feeds into an analogue input can be calibrated to measure 250V @ 1024 bits. There is also a polarised cap and a 5V Zener in the mix before the signal gets fed into the Arduino. Simple. So it works, but the serial monitor sometimes reports some erratic results - not sure why yet, and I couldn't figure it out since the Arduino stopped accepting sketches getting uploaded  :'(  It looks serious... I think it's dead...

Bruce - your PM is on it's way. I'd like to have a look at what you have. It's gonna take a while to replace the Arduino.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on October 29, 2017, 10:27:56 PM
Hi Dieselsmoker.  Pity about the Arduino.  Some protection from ac line spikes might be in order, or it could have been a neutral/ground loop issue if you programming computer was plugged in and the generator was on.  If you want to send me a schematic I may be able to spot the likely problems.  It's clear you have some skills if you put this together so quickly- bravo!

 I've sent you my prototype AVR schematic which has adjustable time delayed, high/low analog voltage level sensing...filtered peak, not RMS.  It has served my 6/1-ST3 setup well for over 10 years.  Sometimes analog is just easier.  I set the trigger points while it was on the bench just as you did-  loading the harmonic regulated ST head until voltage sags, or conversely, lighten the load to get a bit of over voltage.  The I increased the time delays to allow for motor starts, or load shedding; allowable short over/under voltage situations.





Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on November 15, 2017, 07:58:14 PM
I've made some good progress with the voltage regulating circuitry. Thanks BruceM for all the help and advice thus far. I however must interrupt this topic to report back on the transfers that finally arrived. It was a looong 15 week wait... but well worth it.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/ad70/dmtj6gbmiw4gcim4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/dmtj6gbmiw4gcim/20171104_140905-800x450.jpg)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/5511/s4e2asybyayxy1z4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/s4e2asybyayxy1z/20171104_140247-1280x720.jpg)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d09e/mmee2wwidevh02d4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/mmee2wwidevh02d/20171104_140037-800x450.jpg)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/65c0/e6i4khree9q7qmx4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/e6i4khree9q7qmx/20171104_140049-800x450.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on January 06, 2018, 08:30:44 PM
This update is waaaaay overdue. Been on holiday and without any photographic material I dared not post anything!  :)
 
Milestone met! The genset is good enough to show off and it works 100%.
There are only a few more boxes to tick to get to exactly where I want to be - for now I am however content with where I am with the project.

It's been an interesting journey to get the electrics sorted... With the Arduino fried the next option was to go analogue. Thanks again to BruceM for the advice and encouragement.

Circuit operation in a nutshell: Voltage coming from the alternator is scaled down to 12V and monitored by op-amp comparitors. As soon as either adjustable over- or under voltage thresholds are exceeded, the circuit energises a power relay to shed the load going to the plug outlet. There is a time dealy build in to filter out dips and spikes. When the fault condition is resolved, the circuit can be reset to connect the load again. There is a switch in the panel where the monitoring circuit can be switched off - with the power relay wired N/C the circuit can thus operate without intervention. The green LED on the panel door indicates that voltage monitoring is active.

From left to right:
Plug outlet.
Non-latching pushbutton to reset trip.
Green LED - Voltage monitoring active.
Red LED - Output tripped.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/e86e/mu711cfj7fxyegj4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/mu711cfj7fxyegj/20171201_182530-720x1280.jpg)

Complete circuit assembly:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/3d49/tqh6igs3xh2agq54g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/tqh6igs3xh2agq5/20171201_182605-720x1280.jpg)

From left to right:
Neutral bar.
Main circuit breaker.
Voltage monitoring circuit breaker (On/Off).
2x transformers:
     One is to scale 230V to 12V for input into the comparitors.
     The other is 230V to 18V to power the delay-on relay.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/afbb/v545a1thphnm3bg4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/v545a1thphnm3bg/20171201_182615-1280x720.jpg)

The brains of the circuit:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/b761/lfdmt1m922zz46o4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/lfdmt1m922zz46o/20171201_182612-1280x720.jpg)

From left to right:
Power relay to disconnect load. (230V Coil).
12V relay controlled by the delay timer. These contacts operates the power relay.
Delay-on timer triggered by the voltage monitoring circuit.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/7c63/70fz3879abharld4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/70fz3879abharld/20171201_182623-1280x720.jpg)

A brief demonstration:
https://youtu.be/vpnZOMdcmFM (https://youtu.be/vpnZOMdcmFM)

For the alternator connection box I also made a cover. Found some plate in the shed and some heavy hammerblows later I had the cover.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/19bd/xiwvmth5mthxbj24g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/xiwvmth5mthxbj2/20171202_123317-1593x896.jpg)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/e89a/7te5wr8senjc5c24g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/7te5wr8senjc5c2/20171202_123333-1280x720.jpg)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d33f/tzz5qixugw4qqoh4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/tzz5qixugw4qqoh/20180106_142553-1195x2124.jpg)

On the way back from our coastal holiday, we made a road trip of the 1300Km journey back home. We stopped at a couple of interesting places and avoided the main roads so we could pass through some small towns. In one of these towns called "Willowmore" we browsed through some antique shops. In one of these shops I found a Lister Diesel tank, exactly the same as the one I have, in the back of a dark shelve  ;D The tank is beyond repair, but the Lister cap is intact! Of course it had to come home with me. In no time I had it cleaned up and the piece of crap chinese-made cap  was chucked sidways!

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9f06/k58w9cnvdcy83r94g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/k58w9cnvdcy83r9/20180105_121416-1-1593x1195.jpg)

My to-do list to round the project off:
Guages in the panel door. (Volts, Amps, Hour meter, Frequincy)
Probably paint the panel green.
Gib head key covers.
Rocker bushes. (I'll turn these myself)
TAKE IT TO A SHOW!
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on January 07, 2018, 01:52:58 AM
Very nice work on the voltage monitor with time delay and latching relay control of the main power relay!  Your video shows real talent for concise and clear technical explanation...not easy to do.

The whole setup is a restoration work of art and should make some heads turn at the engine shows but would also make a fine home power source as well.  Bravo Dieselsmoker!






 


Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Hugh Conway on January 07, 2018, 06:34:20 PM
Very nice work Dsmoker! And Bruce, I admire your knowledge of electronics.....All that is a completely foreign language for me.
Here, we are at the other end of the scale with a daily driver listeroid. after all these hours, it is a bit blackened  from the carbon in the oil that inevitably oozes out. A good weekly wipe down helps, but cannot really restore it to the original (none too great )finish.
The only electrics are analogue volt  and ammeters and a vibrating reed freq meter.
I''ve been very fortunate to have sorted out my governor to hold the freq.  to within 1 Hz from no load to full load.
I am at about 60 meters above MSL and can pull a continuous 3600W@ 240V without anything complaining, though normally ask it for about 2900W when charging batteries. We once pushed it to output a measured 4000+ watts, but it was asking a lot.  That great Utterpower PMG was worth every penny!
We've logged just over 1500 hours now and the machine sits in a corner of a 3 sided carport exposed to the cold and damp of the coastal islands. As they say, "it ain't pretty, but it does work" Clean fuel and regular oil changes seem to be all it wants. A Solberg air filter/sound suppressor screws right into the standard intake adapter and  really quiets the intake noise.
I do have a Dursley 6/1 that was intended to be more of a show machine, but in the end it will also have a regular job.
It is quite a diverse group and large skill set here on this forum. I visit nearly every day to learn from you all.
Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on January 07, 2018, 07:04:08 PM
Thanks, Hugh, I have learned much here as well.  George B's management of the development and production of the PMG heads was very impressive and a huge undertaking.  I was an R&D manager and can really appreciate the task. 

Regarding intake noise, I think 38AC's work has convinced me that this is likely an intake cam timing issue,  since some have it an others (like my older Metro and neighbor's DES 8/1 propane conversion) do not.  I wonder if you could also make it go away by increasing intake lash to retard intake open timing?  It's certainly an easy experiment.


Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 21, 2018, 08:18:09 PM
Hi Listerines!
I took the Lister to its first show a couple of weeks ago. Pity I only learned about it the day before so I was not prepared at all. It was just load and go! It was close to where I live from so I pulled the trailer with the Lister on to the show with the John Deere. There is a bigger show coming up in September I'll prepare better for. I'll think of something nice for it to do and also make a nice sign for it with some specs and pictures maybe. 

It was a car-show organized for a church charity that was held at the local Primary School. I stole a lot of limelight with the only stationary engine and tractor there  :D The Lister drew a lot of attention - especially with the older generation that grew up with these around on the farms.

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/2639/3eb461abp6tvb034g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/3eb461abp6tvb03/20180321_115637.jpg)

The John Deere 40 was a hit with kids. They climbed on one after the other to pose for pictures on it.  8)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/7172/g3mt70pnp3z1ovz4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/g3mt70pnp3z1ovz/20180321_115616.jpg)

My son demonstrating the PTO pulley:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/3b03/ccyf9xjsmdab8aa4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/ccyf9xjsmdab8aa/20180321_115643.jpg)

On Sunday we FINALLY had a power cut for two hours and I could drag out the Lister to do some REAL work.
https://youtu.be/2o6lEUi1cbY


I have a question about the exhaust of the Lister. If it's nicely warmed up and under load - how clean should the exhaust be? It always smokes a bit - never totally clean. It definitely gets better when nicely warmed up so this is not entirely as bad as it is when worked for 2 or more hours. Check this short video: https://youtu.be/zWEAvepyJRM?list=UUhqCC4-8MJq7uqgqdUSmlzg

I upped the injector opening pressure somewhat:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/2132/mps648qigtqgr2v4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/mps648qigtqgr2v/20180512_142802-1328x747.jpg)

The spray is not perfectly atomized... hoe does this look? (It took a couple of tries with the cellphone camera to catch the image)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c9de/m52kh7v62gzec1g4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/m52kh7v62gzec1g/20180512_142820-1328x747.jpg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on May 21, 2018, 08:45:29 PM
Bravo on your show debut. Your restoration is most impressive.

I don't recall your engine's break in status, but it often takes 100+ hours under load for a CS to fully seat the rings.  My exhaust looked even better after 200 hrs. The exhaust should be nearly clear when warmed up under moderate load.

It's hard to judge your spray pattern from a photo so close to the nozzle but it might be too spray/jet like and not like a "burst of fog".  (May not be atomizing well.) I'd swap in a new nozzle or injector and see if that helps.  Check it visually first so you can see what a good one looks like.  Your injector may be fine; I can tell more from the sound and mist from it hitting in a coffee can since that's what I use with my DIY grease gun pop tester.  A jet is not ideal. A bit of carbon in the nozzle can cause a jet, as can poor pintle fit, in my limited experience.



Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on May 21, 2018, 11:01:11 PM

You have done a brilliant job on your machine!
It looks awesome and runs beautifully smooth as well.

The injector on my machine fires in a circle pattern. The fuel comes out from every side, not firing like yours appears to be to one side. I agree with Bruce, I can tell more about how they are firing from the sound, at least on my china diesel which I have had more hands on time with.  Had to pull that apart a few times due to not running it for over a year and the veg fuel gumming it up. No big deal to clean it but as soon as I wind it up I can tell by the sound if it's right or not.

Given the time and incredible effort you have put into the thing, a few more bucks on a new injector may be worth while if you can't clean this one.
The ones on my china diesels come apart easily and there isn't much to them but they are easy to clean out stuff you can't see but just won't clean themselves with any sort of solvent when running.

Unscrewing the muffler may give you an indication as to how the engine is running. If it's wet in the exhaust port at all something's not quite right.
May not be bedded in with the rings or it may be the injector but I would eliminate the easiest possibility first and then give it some time and see how you go.

Would be best at this stage to always run with a load on the thing. If you have electric hot water heating you could always hook it up to that to give it a load to work from and get some benefit out of it.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 22, 2018, 10:03:50 AM
Bravo on your show debut. Your restoration is most impressive.

I don't recall your engine's break in status, but it often takes 100+ hours under load for a CS to fully seat the rings.  My exhaust looked even better after 200 hrs. The exhaust should be nearly clear when warmed up under moderate load.

It's hard to judge your spray pattern from a photo so close to the nozzle but it might be too spray/jet like and not like a "burst of fog".  (May not be atomizing well.) I'd swap in a new nozzle or injector and see if that helps.  Check it visually first so you can see what a good one looks like.  Your injector may be fine; I can tell more from the sound and mist from it hitting in a coffee can since that's what I use with my DIY grease gun pop tester.  A jet is not ideal. A bit of carbon in the nozzle can cause a jet, as can poor pintle fit, in my limited experience.

Thankyou!
I have no idea how many hours are on the engine... I have that hour meter on my wishlist  ::)

It is possible that the engine is not fully run in, but I am not totally happy with the spray pattern... I have a Mercedes 300D nozzle I'll try as reference (if it fits in the injector holder) - never thought of doing that while I had everything set up! 

What is the best way to determine the optimum opening pressure? Surely things like atmospheric pressure will have an influence? Or is it not too critical as long as it is near the 90 atm mark the manual recommends? I just checked something: 90 atm = 93 Kgf/sq cm so my setting is pretty accurate. I did play with the adjustment screw while the engine was running and a full turn either way had very little noticible effect on smoke or power output. (I'm not sure how much one turn affects opening pressure - I'll check when I take the injector out again)

The injector is as clean as I could get it - but I won't be surprised if the hole is not perfect as the injector tip is pitted by corrosion. I'll take it to a Diesel service centre who has the tools to clean this out properly.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 22, 2018, 10:21:28 AM

You have done a brilliant job on your machine!
It looks awesome and runs beautifully smooth as well.

The injector on my machine fires in a circle pattern. The fuel comes out from every side, not firing like yours appears to be to one side. I agree with Bruce, I can tell more about how they are firing from the sound, at least on my china diesel which I have had more hands on time with.  Had to pull that apart a few times due to not running it for over a year and the veg fuel gumming it up. No big deal to clean it but as soon as I wind it up I can tell by the sound if it's right or not.

Given the time and incredible effort you have put into the thing, a few more bucks on a new injector may be worth while if you can't clean this one.
The ones on my china diesels come apart easily and there isn't much to them but they are easy to clean out stuff you can't see but just won't clean themselves with any sort of solvent when running.

Unscrewing the muffler may give you an indication as to how the engine is running. If it's wet in the exhaust port at all something's not quite right.
May not be bedded in with the rings or it may be the injector but I would eliminate the easiest possibility first and then give it some time and see how you go.

Would be best at this stage to always run with a load on the thing. If you have electric hot water heating you could always hook it up to that to give it a load to work from and get some benefit out of it.

Thanks Glort. The encouragement and advice gained from this forum helped a lot to get the job done!

The injector should spray to the side for the stream to align with the hole in the head. Other types of injectors do have a conical spray pattern where the tip is exposed directly to the combustion chamber. On page 12 of this thread there are some books that explains this - but you probably know this already. Are you using the conical spray tip in the Lister? If yes it will make finding a replacement tip so much easier!

I'll take the muffler off and check the port. The muffler definately catches some unburnt fuel or oil when the engine ran for a while with no load. When connecting a load there is clearly a lot more smoke for a few minutes before it improves. Usually when I let it run I connect it to the house so, like you said, it does something productive and not just burn the fuel for nothing.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on May 22, 2018, 05:24:08 PM
Pop pressure is not going to matter much in our slow speed engines.  Within 10% of spec would be fine on a single cylinder engine.  I'd match pop pressures for a twin. 

Your smoke n the video seems to look a bit blueish- so I'd bet on ring seating or excess splash oil.

I'm also a  MB 300D owner/driver.  Matching pop pressure/pattern for it is quite helpful to engine smoothness.  A DIY grease gun pop tester worked well for me.

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on May 23, 2018, 12:35:42 AM

I'm also a  MB 300D owner/driver.  Matching pop pressure/pattern for it is quite helpful to engine smoothness. 

Is yours a turbo Bruce?  They never brought them out here so mine being NA was woefully slow, even to the point of being dangerous I felt.  I dialed the fuel up much as it would take without being a mobile smoke screen and that helped but was still pretty dismal. Water injection helped and when I was running methanol in it, the thing really woke up..... in a tortoise scale of speed.

Having injectors right is critical.  I changed the injectors on my present Turblow Diesel and the difference was amazing. I was told the injectors in it were only 3 Yo when I got it but they were either older and sadder or not done right. 
The new injectors were so good I turned the turbo boost from 16 Lb to 8 and reduced the fuel significantly and the thing was still a touch faster and gruntier than before. Learned a lot about injectors right there.

Funny enough though, I can't say I noticed any significant change in fuel usage.... Not that I really cared or had a consistent Driving pattern.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on May 23, 2018, 12:59:48 AM
Yes, my 1985 300D has a turbo charger. Shorter engine life than the NA model (average is about 350K) but at my elevation of 5600 feet it's essential. I pull a couple utility trailers and for years pulled a small sailboat (West Wight Potter) with it with no trouble at all. 

 



 





 



Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 23, 2018, 08:33:53 AM
Your smoke n the video seems to look a bit blueish- so I'd bet on ring seating or excess splash oil.

I'm also a  MB 300D owner/driver.  Matching pop pressure/pattern for it is quite helpful to engine smoothness.  A DIY grease gun pop tester worked well for me.

I doubt if it is oil burning - but I can't eliminate the possibility totally with the low engine hours.

My dad used to have a '79 300D natural aspirated - drove it for years but he let it go 18 years ago and replaced it with a C180. Still remeber that car very well.. He always had the injectors, timing and tappets perfect but it took a bit of effort to maintain. The petrol burners are just so much easier to live with.

Thanks to the Merc I have a proper injector tester. I would love to see how your make-do tester works.

They never brought them out here so mine being NA was woefully slow, even to the point of being dangerous I felt.   

South Africa also missed out on the W123 turbo models... so I know exactly what you are talking about - and to think we thought the 300 was fast compared to the 240 we had!!  :D

The W124 6 cylinder was turbocharged. One saw very few of them on the roads. Always wondered if they were any good? The W123s are very comfortable rides and totally indestructable. The 240D is still with the people who bought it from my dad (30 years ago??). The engine was redone at some point, but it's got hundreds of thousands of farmroad kilometres on it. Just for interest sake - The 240D is basically identical to the 300D with basically just one cylinder chopped off.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on May 23, 2018, 12:36:17 PM

I drove a 240 once.
 I thought the 300 was dangerously slow, by the same token I thought the 240 was a suicide machine.  The one I drove was in pristine condition but I was convinced there was something very amiss with it.  Seemed a lot more to me than missing 1/5th of the 300 power. I was looking for the rope attached to the parked car it was dragging behind it. I believe in europe there was a sport/ performance version that was turboed and was a reasonably quick car.
Takes some believing but I have seen pictures!

A guy I got very friendly with through the local Veg forum was a very specialised aircraft Mechanic who worked on Militarily turbines. He bought a 300D that had broken a cam.
He rebuilt the engine " His way"  and when he took me for a ride, I was convinced it was a gee up and he'd planted some hotted up 6Cyl petrol engine in the thing.  I could tell it wasn't an 8 but stuff me, did this thing go! The first ride was actually with 3 other guys in the car as well and none of us were exactly 5ft tall or anorexic and this thing flew. Literally Chirped the tyres and broke traction from 1st to 2nd.

We were waiting to see what was under the bonnet and couldn't believe it when we saw the exact engine that should be there. We went over it looking for a Nitrous  injection or something to explain the incredible performance of the thing. Wasn't turboed and would have been still impressive if it was.
Mate just said it was all in knowing how to build a diesel and we could not argue with what he did with the thing. Only difference from stock we could tell was an aftermarket aircleaner and a bigger diameter exhaust although it still sounded much the same.

About a year after he did it, he wanted to sell it as his mrs thought it was too old and ugly. It was really a very nice example with a perfect interior. I put my hand up for it straight away but his father promised it to his cousin so I lost out.  Kid only had it about 4 months and of course put it into a pole.  Mate was pretty regretful he didn't sell it to me then.
I still can't explain how he got that thing to go like it did but geez the thing pulled hard.

I still look on fleabay for another 300D now and then. I'd turbo it so the thing went properly now I know a bit more about diesels but they are hard to find now and expensive when the emotionally attached owners offer them.
I still have the engine from my 300. My beloved " Helga" was rusted to the point of structurally unsound so got retired. The engine was still very good so I kept it for a boat or generator.
I have gone to sell it a number of times but somehow, I just can't.

I think that car was the cheapest and biggest heap of shit I ever owned due to it's condition but far and away the most beloved car I ever had. NEVER let me down even if there were the odd quick roadside repairs ( including a fire on the highway the brigade attended ) but she ALWAYS got us home..... even when friends much later and more expensive cars didn't due to not making it through the same flooded roads when following us.
" Helga"  was a part of our lives and the fun we had in it I'll never forget and is literally a chapter in my families lives.

Might just go Check fleabay again.......   :'(
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 06, 2018, 02:47:21 PM
Some more experimentation results:
I have not yet had a chance to have the injector checked by a service centre for a second oppinion - so that and also the probability of the rings not fully seated are still factors not eliminated. What I did however find is the effect of Diesel sulphur content. Currently we have a choice between 10ppm, 50ppm and 500ppm. I tried all 3 and it seems like the 500ppm makes more smoke - but I'll need more playtime to reach a proven conclusion. What are your experiences with this? Also - the effect of sulphur content related to fuel lubricity, cetane- and calorific values seems as much debated and opinionated as any technical topic out there... so far my research has just helped me reach my own opinion! I am not too worried about fuel combustion performance - I am more interested to know what is best for the pump and injector. 30+ years ago Diesel probably had a sulphur ppm count of 3-5000!?  Should these older injection systems not be fed with some 2 stroke oil in the mix? Or is sulphur lubrication properties replaced well enough with alternative additives?

None of this is probably applicable to a CS as it won't even notice the difference. Only these modern DPF and AdBlue DEF systems would mind if they where fed some crude fuel  ::) but the theory behind it all is still interesting.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on June 06, 2018, 04:39:38 PM

We don't get a choice here, it's all low Sulphur. How low I don't know.

Years ago I looked into the lubricity thing.  Our Diesel is as dry as can be. There are all sorts of additives but 2-stroke, Biodiesel and Veg oil are literally hundreds of times better than any of the commercial ( expensive) lubricity additives.  I saw a test done on a bunch of these miracles in a bottle along with Biodiesel added at 2%.  That was off the charts in the improvement it made. About 1/20th the price of the additives and about 100X better in what it does.  I can only Imagine what Veg and 2 stroke does as they are both higher in lubricity than Bio.

I personally feel uncomfortable running straight diesel in my Vehicles after years of veg. So far the only engine failure I have had in 15 years was when I ran out of Veg and put Diesel in the Vehicle.  Next Day, Bang.  Co incidence maybe but given the fact the vehicle would be lucky to run 20L of Diesel a year and the thing was running like a watch before, I don't think so.

I look at it like this, if you put a bit of oil or 2 stroke in your engine and it dosen't work, so what? You have lost nothing.  IF it does work, even to offset one IP or injector failure or rebuild, you are a long way ahead.

Smoke never worries me in the least as long as it's from a 2 stroke or a Diesel.  In this case some 2 stroke may reduce the smoke levels as it has additives to do that. It could also help with carbon buildup as it has additives designed to prevent that as well.

I just don't feel comfortable these days with straight Diesel. Adding some oil I think is very worth while and lets me feel more comfortable about the well being of my Diesels.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: mike90045 on June 07, 2018, 01:12:05 AM
I use 2 stroke oil mixed with pump (low sulfur) diesel,  200:1

Sadly, bio diesel has gone away in my area, I can drive 30 miles and get some 20%, but it's not worth the bother.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on June 07, 2018, 06:42:28 AM

Sadly, bio diesel has gone away in my area, I can drive 30 miles and get some 20%, but it's not worth the bother.

Yep same here.
Despite all the Fuss in it's heyday I only ever saw 20% that was imported from some dodgy South african source.  there was one guy selling 100% near the city He got from a country plant and he did do well with it for a while.  Sold out all he could get and I then supplies got very patchy and  when he did get things sorted again, the novelty had worn off for a lot of people.

Brother in law worked for a company that was running their fleet of trucks and loaders on the SA stuff. I told him it's dodgy, You'll have problems. Typically I was ignored and dismissed till after about 3 Months everything stopped working almost at the same time.
company was still sure it wasn't the fuel.  Righto then....

Cheap Cooking oil would make a fine lubrication additive and cheap as well. Used oil is every bit as good and cheaper still!  :0)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on June 07, 2018, 08:21:25 PM
I look at it like this, if you put a bit of oil or 2 stroke in your engine and it dosen't work, so what? You have lost nothing.  IF it does work, even to offset one IP or injector failure or rebuild, you are a long way ahead.

Smoke never worries me in the least as long as it's from a 2 stroke or a Diesel.  In this case some 2 stroke may reduce the smoke levels as it has additives to do that. It could also help with carbon buildup as it has additives designed to prevent that as well.

I just don't feel comfortable these days with straight Diesel. Adding some oil I think is very worth while and lets me feel more comfortable about the well being of my Diesels.

I also can't see any harm done by adding some 2SO to the Diesel. Even some engine oil will do just as well but that will definitely cause some smoking if overdosed. I had a VW Jetta 1.8 with Mechanical Bosch K-Jetronic CIS (Continuous injection system). I always added 2SO to the petrol. Never had a fuel pump failure again. The system had an accumilator to keep the whole system under pressure when switched off. If an injector started leaking the car would basically be flooded when starting. 2SO in the tank fixed those injectors and kept them happy. Proven over and over. With this experience nobody has to convince me to dump oil in the fuel!

We never had Biodiesel sold commercially here. Totally unheard of - until word did the rounds years ago that a massive Biodiesel plant was to be build. The huge hype around business oportunities and potential incomes got suddenly extinguished when the whole thing turned out to be a scam attempting to lure investors in... why do these people not invest this energy into something productive I'll never understand. I wonder if it ever would have worked anyway - the greenies where up in arms about the use of maize for fuel when hunger stares so many in the face --- never saw the upped maize production anayway...

The only Diesel quality problems was when Power Paraffin (Kerosene) was still produced by the local refineries. Some dodgy filling stations diluted the Diesel with this and caused lots of damage to pumps and injectors. When sticking to the busy branded filling stations this was however never an issue.

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Johndoh on June 07, 2018, 11:34:13 PM
My 2 bobs worth on adding 2 stroke oil to diesel. It's automotive homeopathy the quantities are too small to make a difference. I tried an experiment with whiskey and water at 200:1 ratio it tasted like water to me!
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on June 08, 2018, 03:30:02 AM
My 2 bobs worth on adding 2 stroke oil to diesel. It's automotive homeopathy the quantities are too small to make a difference. I tried an experiment with whiskey and water at 200:1 ratio it tasted like water to me!

It would only be ineffective if the ratios were too light. Everyone has their preferences and what they think is good.

I would tend to think 200:1 was a bit light on for me as well but then I have never seen the results of testing to confirm the difference it does make.
There are some rare engines that can run 100:1 2 stroke so running 200:1 in an engine that is not supposed to need any further lubrication of it's fuel system could make a worthwhile difference.

The least I have run is 50:1. 2L of veg in a 100L tank of diesel.

I used to play around with high performance 2 strokes and I used to shove as much oil in them as they were happy with and vary the ratio according to load.  If I knew the things were going to have their backside flogged out I'd load them up with as much as 12:1 oil/ fuel. If they were just going to be cruising round barely working a sweat, i'd mix the juice at 20:1.

The thing I found was if there wasn't oil dribbling out the pipe, it wasn't too much.  12:1 with the engine not working was too much but when the thing was screaming its head off and just below glowing, it was just right. About the only oil ratio I never used was the manufacturers one which was 25:1.
Way too lean for any of the engines I had built.

I must have done something right with it. Even after being flogged for 2 years I'll pull the things down and find absoloutley minimal wear in any part from the rings to the bearings to the bores. Slap them back together and have another look in another couple of years.  Funny enough the factory fresh engines never lasted this long on the recommended ratios people ran them.

My thoughts are that the friction in a mechanical IP is probably not going to be all that different to that of the bores in an engine. Therefore I want to have a similar amount of lube.  I don't know what the comparison of diesel would be to petrol. Maybe diesel has a similar lubricity to petrol at 80:1 to start off with so running at 200:1 gives you an effective ratio of 140:1 or something.
I do know if I work in petrol terms I'm safe and as most of the time I run engines on pure oil, I can never put it too much.

I make real sure there is Plenty in there!   :laugh:

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Hugh Conway on June 08, 2018, 06:15:28 PM
Re additives to increase lubricity in diesel fuels.
Here is a study and results.

jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTechnicalManuals/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf

 A lot of stuff out there that claims it does, does not.

cheers
Hugh
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on June 08, 2018, 06:44:32 PM
Great link Hugh, thanks!
Pity they didn't test straight vegetable oils as additives but adding 2% soy biodiesel was the hands down winner.



Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselspanner on June 08, 2018, 08:53:52 PM
Nice one, Hugh, thanks for that.

And it was done 11 years back!

Cheers Stef

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on October 03, 2018, 01:38:18 PM
It's been a while since I had a chance to do some more work on the engine. I blame the winter for that. I just do what I HAVE TO do and hibernate the rest of the time. The weather has warmed up nicely now and we expect probably the last cold front to pass us in the next two days. It never snows here - we just get the cold!

The only thing I totally skipped during the restoration was the rocker assembly. I just cleaned it up and put it back when I assembled the engine to get it running. The wear in the bushes was quite bad and there was a distinct clicking sound coming from the valve gear.
 (https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/b83a/7b7963r8l7e7q794g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/7b7963r8l7e7q79/20180930_124239-747x996.jpg/file)

As I did with the Camshaft, I turned the worn Rocker shaft ends down to get them round again. The centre portion where it locates in the block is still standard.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/1290/lnanzdhecyc4qlm4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/lnanzdhecyc4qlm/20180930_131732-747x996.jpg/file)

There were steel bushes in the rockers... I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be brass!
I opted to make the replacement bushes from VESCONITE. Pretty amazing stuff. This is used everywhere to replace brass bushes and brass wear plates in machinery. Easy to machine, extremely durable and dead cheap compared to brass.

I had these two pieces in my off-cut bin waiting to do something great
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/2367/s4jeg5s64n277oc4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/s4jeg5s64n277oc/20180930_124319-747x560.jpg/file)

New bush machined and in the rocker ready to do some work
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/20b1/2z9tlyisl92ebyc4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/2z9tlyisl92ebyc/20180930_140634-747x560.jpg/file)

There is now zero slop in the rocker assembly and it most definately runs quiter. It took me all of 2 hours to get done and I have no idea why I haven't done this sooner!

A reminder of what the panel looked like when I last worked on it:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d65c/sfrcuinvu6tjla24g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/sfrcuinvu6tjla2/20180615_VA.jpg/file)

I gathered my last energy, stripped out all the guts, cut two more windows in the door and painted it the prettiest colour I could think off.  ;)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/1dc8/lqbrsnlvhyg5iyq4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/lqbrsnlvhyg5iyq/20180930_124154-747x560.jpg/file)


Next I got myself a little to-me-from-me for my b-day and finished off the panel with a brand new frequency- and hour meter. It cost an arm and leg but well worth it. Appart from added functionality it finishes the panel off nicely.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/b7c5/ylbeceudhvww2d44g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/ylbeceudhvww2d4/4_Guages_2018-10-03-12.png/file)

The new face:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/ad4a/ddg0u46c1d1cd6j4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/ddg0u46c1d1cd6j/Green_Panel-2018-10-03.png/file)

A little video to show what it looks like now:
It runs a whole lot better with the new gadgets installed  :D
https://youtu.be/C5JExqserFk (https://youtu.be/C5JExqserFk)


Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on October 03, 2018, 02:09:32 PM

Wow!

Definitely one of the most beautifully finished, best detailed and well equipped setups I have seen. And runs like a swiss watch as well.

BIG credit to you mate.

Now that one is finished and you have nothing else to do, Can I send you my roid and a Cheque to give it the same once over??
I'd be proud as punch to have something like that in my shed..... or lounge room more likely!
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 03, 2018, 02:17:37 PM
+1 Glort, what a beautiful restoration, a credit to you and your skills. Hope mine turns out as nice.

I managed to source Oilite bushes for my rockers, right internal/external dimensions but 1/8" too long, not a difficult fix.

Bob
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on October 03, 2018, 03:03:37 PM
That's one gorgeous restoration, Dieselsmoker!
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: saba on October 03, 2018, 11:50:26 PM
Incredible, super only the video should last 30 min longer. Really amazing.
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on October 04, 2018, 07:45:43 AM
Wow!

Definitely one of the most beautifully finished, best detailed and well equipped setups I have seen. And runs like a swiss watch as well.

BIG credit to you mate.
Thank you for the kind words. 

Now that one is finished and you have nothing else to do, Can I send you my roid and a Cheque to give it the same once over??
I'd be proud as punch to have something like that in my shed..... or lounge room more likely!
We can talk business if you have LOTS of patience!  :D
This job took only took me 5 years to get here and I've already got more ideas... It really shouldn't take that long but in between life and other projects this build just dragged on forever - but it was well worth it in the end. I hinted at pulling it into the lounge but I was not take seriously. I never got a definate "no", so maybe...  ;)

+1 Glort, what a beautiful restoration, a credit to you and your skills. Hope mine turns out as nice.

I managed to source Oilite bushes for my rockers, right internal/external dimensions but 1/8" too long, not a difficult fix.

Bob
Thank you!
Patience and perseverance and you'll definitaly get there! few people really appreciate the amount of effort it takes to build something like this. 

Oilite is just perfect for this application. Not too easy to come by and cost about the same as gold by weight!   

That's one gorgeous restoration, Dieselsmoker!

Thanks!

Incredible, super only the video should last 30 min longer. Really amazing.
Thanks!
I'll make you a special video - or loop this one  :D
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 09, 2019, 11:30:26 AM
I think I said this before: Rome was not build in a day and this Restoration was not done in 3 years  :D

The engine continues to run like a dream and remains a great source of entertainment. I had it to two shows recently and it draws a lot of attention. Especially elder people who grew up on farms quickly come closer when they hear the Lister start. You then see those eyes staring at the flywheels just taking in the sight with the other senses recording the sounds and the smells that awaken distant memories... Then the tales start pouring out of how they fell asleep at night with that sound in the distant night or how a crank handle wacked them when they had to start up on a cold winter morning  :laugh: Great fun and a lot of interesting people that came along with this hobby.

The one major pain I had was loading and unloading this beast. Everything worked very well appart from working that darn lever block to pull the engine up the ramps. To make things worse, the chain is too short to pull it up in one go, so it had to be done in two stages. Not nice to start and end a fun day by breaking a sweat!

Picture taken at the last show I was at in March. (Same show we attended a year ago)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/cc9a/a2bpcgs4htnnkdw4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/a2bpcgs4htnnkdw/IMG_20190321_103149-912x684.jpg/file)

Gazebo for shade, Lister powered kettle for fresh coffee. Lister powered electric grille provided lunch.
Always nice to make things work to show off that it actually works!
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/40e8/y4uj8c3p1x884ox4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/y4uj8c3p1x884ox/IMG_20190321_103200-912x684.jpg/file)

HOW I USED TO DO IT
Setting up the ramps and blocks under the trailer.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c79d/v2dikawg3wvxj4r4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/v2dikawg3wvxj4r/20181124_133053-996x747.jpg/file)

This pole fits inside the trailer hook and keeps the trailer at the disired angle. When the engine is loaded, the balance point is slightly in front of the axle, but not too heavy to lower the trailer by hand. The genset can go on the trailer either way, but balances better with the tank-side towards the front of the trailer.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/8a92/7bp5hy3fucq2gx74g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/7bp5hy3fucq2gx7/IMG_20190503_155410-912x684.jpg/file)

The chain is extended with a belt sling connected to the trolley. The sling on the left will be used to hold the load when the trolley is halfway up the ramps when the lever block extension is removed before pulling the second stage to the top.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/ad77/qc42kwqdcg688m64g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/qc42kwqdcg688m6/20181124_133512-996x747.jpg/file)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/e0b7/esuho3dy1m1xo3i4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/esuho3dy1m1xo3i/20181124_133533-996x747.jpg/file)

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/3adf/5ptolgubaeapouk4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/5ptolgubaeapouk/20181124_134411-996x747.jpg/file)


ENTER ELECTRIC WINCH!
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/770c/kolq622myaqg6tf4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/kolq622myaqg6tf/IMG_20190503_155327-912x684.jpg/file)

Cable is long enough to pull it on the trailer from the far side of the yard.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/a97b/c3fn7l8ihqy5bcg4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/c3fn7l8ihqy5bcg/IMG_20190503_155425-912x684.jpg/file)

Walking up the trailer at the push of a button  :)
(Button in one hand, cold beer in the other hand)
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/468c/6w9k7711vot72s24g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/6w9k7711vot72s2/IMG_20190503_155746-912x684.jpg/file)

Watch the short video of the winch in action:
Can't wait to try it ou at the next show!
https://youtu.be/e4ssL7CqQwg (https://youtu.be/e4ssL7CqQwg)
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: BruceM on May 09, 2019, 02:53:18 PM
Very nice design, dieselsmoker, I like the angle iron rails.  A classy setup for a classic Lister.

Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: dieselspanner on May 09, 2019, 03:42:38 PM
+1 for the design, better than the 'mandraulic' system.

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: glort on May 10, 2019, 12:27:34 AM

I'm always very wary of anything on ramps. Never had a problem myself but that's probably because I go to too much trouble to make sure I don't have problems but I have seen loads of people that have.
The angle Iron system is brilliant because the trolley can't go anywhere.  Can't slip off or Skew, locked into lateral place. Did you work on railways at any stage?   :laugh:

I was thinking reading your post that even a cheap  hand winch would be good but you went the full tilt with an electric. Of course the PROPER  way to do it would be have a little gearbox on the trolley with a belt to the wheels and have the engine pull itself Up and down!  :0)

Gearbox from a ride on mower might in fact make that practical.

As well as providing your tea and Steaks, The engine engine could move itself around the show grounds which would be something to see!   :0)

The engine is great and the thought in loading and unloading to make an often precarious job a simple and risk free one is also inspirational.
I like this type of thinking. Spend a little time thinking something through and doing a reliable setup and save loads of time and stress and be happy to use something from then on.

Well done mate on all counts!
Title: Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
Post by: Dieselsmoker on May 11, 2019, 10:08:57 PM
Thanks guys. I have learned a lot from you and other people on the net - so I share what I do to pass my ideas forward. It might just plant a seed with someone towards solving their problem.

Glort - I like the way you think. I have thought about the idea to make the trolley power itself many times, but never really applied my mind to it. The setup is heavy and I can manouvre it on hard surfaces, but it is totally impossable to drag it by hand over grass, ramps or uneven surfaces. I'll keep my eyes open for parts...

To elaborate a bit on the bracket:
I toyed with many ideas and came up with this design -

Construction of bracket:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/b00d/n1dol49g1s7xw994g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/n1dol49g1s7xw99/20190511_152118-1593x1195.jpg/file)

Hooked onto the frame:
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/625c/nahytme1i7njd754g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/nahytme1i7njd75/SmartSelectImage_2019-05-11-17-17-28.jpg/file)


Short Video showing how easy it is to mount and remove the winch:
https://youtu.be/N10StbFfjTg (https://youtu.be/N10StbFfjTg)