Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Original Lister Cs Engines => Topic started by: ottawavalleyboy on January 28, 2012, 04:47:41 PM
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Hi everybody,
I'm a first timer with a weakness for Diesels, I'm waiting on my first Lister to arrive an air cooled 7.5 VA.
This is my first antique engine & I plan on building a small backup electrical l generator with it.
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Welcome aboard mate ;D
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Welcome!
Dieselgman
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Glad you found the place neighbour.
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Thanks, I hope the VA gets here soon this looks like a good place to start.
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Welcome !
Not many of us Lister owners here in Canuk country.
Looking forward the the pictures and videos :)
cheers,
veggie
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Listers were manufactured in Dursley England, but shipped all over the world by the bazillions, especially to us colonies. I found mine sitting in a field after nearly 3 years of asking everyone I could convince to stand still while I described Listers to them. When I finally asked a long time friend and skiing buddy of mine he said, "yes, I have one sitting in a back field and you can have it for the it's scrap price cause if you don't want it that's exactly where it's going". When I picked my jaw up off the floor and went immediately to his back field I said I'll take it and phone another buddy with a pickup and we got it to my home within the hour. That's how I found "Penelope", see my avatar.
To quote Mulder, "They are out there!"
Stan
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Hope the VA gets to you safe.
We have a ton of engines in the UK
one of them is my VA
All we need is to get them over the pond
.
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Welcome aboard.
I have a Lister VA running my house as I write. Very good engine. Tend to run on the cool side, but you don't have to worry about pipes, water tanks, pumps etc.
Fire her up and let her run. This one been with me for about 30 of its 40 years.
Chris R
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Welcome OVB.
I ran my VA yesterday to pump up some air.
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%20VA/IMG_2822.jpg)
Bob
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Great looking setup for pumping air, Bob. What's the HP and rpm of the VA you're using for your compressor?
How does the sound of the VA compare to a CS?
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Thank you Bruce.
Here is a clip of it in action at the show last summer;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA4FrbyI_CM
You can hear it run compared to the other Listers. The VA is noisier. No water to dampen the diesel knock. The blower arrangement does not significantly contribute to the noise of the engine.
The compressor is a Quincy 320. RPM range is (min/max) 400/900 and cfm @175 psi is (min/max) 8.3/18.64. It is backed off to about 600 on the engine and about 350 on the compressor. It does just fine. If I needed more air i can speed it up, but I have a 15HP electric in the main shop for the big volume stuff.
Bob
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What a great demo for the show, Bob, I love your VA powered pneumatic reciprocating powered fan. The VA is a lovely engine with a laudable service history.
I use my Listeroid CS for either air or AC power for my off grid shop; all the wood working tools are air conversions via Gast vane motors.
I use the air compressor unloader valves instead of a belt clutch on the compressor (Eaton 5hp rated 3 cylinder, 2 stage unit). It does work, allowing me to have both generator and compressor belted and selected by remote control from my shop, but the unloaded air compressor parasitic load is more than I had hoped. I unbelt the air compressor for laundry/well water pumping day to conserve fuel.
I've thought about adding either some sort of homemade v-belt tensioning "clutch" arrangement via air cylinder, or adding a jack shaft with pneumatic clutch. For the former arrangement I've been advised that the loose belt sliding on the 19" V belt sheave would probably wear it badly over time.
If you have a suggestion for my compressor issue, please do share it!
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Bruce, this picture is crude, and the engagement system is hypothetical, but would an idler roller that can be engaged and disengaged somehow be an option?(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=6638&g2_serialNumber=2)
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The key to making this kind of a clutch work are the belt "loopers" These are simple pins, guides, or formed metal parts that force the belt to loop over the driving pulley when slack. There is no contact if done right.
Dad and I were a Simplicity tractor dealer and I learned this on their equipment. Their engineers really understood belt drives and made them work well.
Bob
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Bob, thanks so much for your suggestion. I'd like to find out more about the Simplicity belt " loopers" . How do they work? Do they require a mechanical actuator of their own?
Bshwartz, thanks, yes, a pneumatic cylinder driven idler is the obvious solution to disconnecting the compressor load. What I didn't know how to do was how to keep the slack belt from sliding on and wearing the drive pulley, but Bob now has me hopeful that there is nothing new under the sun and that problem has been solved before.
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Bruce,
My idea was to NOT use a belt at all, just use a rubber wheel of some sort to transfer energy from the flywheel to the compressor.
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Thanks, Bshwartz. I misunderstood. Hopefully Bob can help me understand how to implement the Simplicity belt "loopers" so I can use my existing pulleys and a B belt.
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Bruce,
I looked around online but could not find any useful information.
The belt is captured by the pins, guides, or formed metal parts. When the belt is driving, the belt only touches the pulleys. When the belt is declutched, or slackened, the slack is forced to loop over the driving pulley and not touch it.
If I have your email address I could take a picture off my Simplicity tractor and send from the cell phone. Most mowers, garden tractors, etc that use a belt to clutch will have this arrangement.
Bob
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Thanks Bob, that would be a big help. Change the at and dot below.
(edited out the email address to avoid spam)
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Thanks for the photo via email Bob. How is the belt slack pushed towards the belt guide around the pulley? I suppose I could use a pneumatic actuated belt guide on the compressor pulley that would push the belt tight all around that pulley, forcing the belt slack towards the Listeroid 19" pulley and it's belt guide/fingers.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff48/BruceMcC/2012-03-01_10-31-41_862.jpg)
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Hey, aren't you going to share the picture with the rest of us to give us ideas?
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Sorry, Brett, that was rude of me. I just added the image from Bob above.
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In this arrangement, to declutch the idler pulley moves down. The stiffness of the belt makes it straighten out and loop the pulley. Sometimes there is a belt retainer on the idler to keep it in place when the belt is slack.
Bob
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Thanks Bob, I guess I'll just have to experiment a bit to see what will work best for my large drive pulley setup.
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My Lister is now in Ottawa according to Day & Ross' website. I should be all greasy before supper! :D
It's been 40 years since I've seen one & my cousins out west always did all the lever flipping & so on, hope I remember what the sequence is....
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Here it is. haven't started it yet but it's complete except for the air filter....I have a K&N hiding someplace...drain the old oil out tomorrow & she should be good to go!I'm going to try & fit the old muffler from my diesel smart car to it,see how it works....
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b295/strawboss/101_0055.jpg)
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She looks in great shape, OttawaVB! Best luck on your first run and checkout work!
Best Wishes,
Bruce
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Congratulations OVB.
At your oil change be sure to pull the side cover and take out the splash shield. There is a pool of sediment under it that needs to be cleaned out. Wipe it out and reinstal the shield.l
Also please take it off the cart and skid before you fire it up. It could easily vibrate or bounce off. That would not be a pretty sight.
Enjoy.
Bob
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Thanks,Bruce I just bought some fresh 20w oil to replace the old.
For sure Bob...the cheap Princess Auto farm cart didn't make it 3 feet before the front wheels folded....thank god for neighbours with good reflexes...I almost lost it right there.... >:(
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I had a vacuum oil drainer that I use on my truck & car, it came in handy for getting every last drop of oil.
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b295/strawboss/Listervacuumpump613x1024.jpg)
both diesels one is just a little older design, check out the license plate....
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b295/strawboss/fortwolister613x1024.jpg)
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OVB, we have not heard from you in a while. How is the project coming along?
Bob
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Been letting the surgeon practise on me, I had my right rotator cuff repaired on the 25 of june, 4 more weeks with my arm in a sling then 3 more months of physio, so no camping fishing or working on the Lister >:(
Looks like it will be spring before I get anything useful or fun done, they had me on light duty prior to the repair but this is cruel and unusual punishment with the weather being what it is here..... :laugh:
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Got up & around today so decided to tackle the fuel tank as it was leaking from the shutoff valve, an old piece of junk that was handy I guess, got a proper replacement and will strip/paint it.
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This thread is ancient but I want people to know that I'm still kicking.
My right hip started to fail soon after the 2012 post to the point where I had it replaced in 2016.
But I kept all my tools and stuff, and a few weeks ago I bought a house in the country, the place has a large heated workshop/garage roughly 30' x 48',and I vaguely remember seeing a small bungalow there as well.
The closest neighbour is 1/2 a kilometer away so running the Lister shouldn't be an issue.I got a generator and frame fabbed up before I got my titanium/ceramic hip installed so there shouldn't be much to do.
Can't wait.
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Hey OVB
Greetings from another former colony
Congratulations on surviving, persevering & overcoming
I like your description of a rural property with a large shed & the possibility of a bungalow in some corner. I have something analogous to that here in NZ along with a couple of "project" CSs and the odd gen head
Good luck, Mike
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Hey Mike,
It's good to hear that my doppleganger exists in one of my most favourite countries.
My niece spent a year or so in New Zealand....I begged her to take me along....thankfully she has good sense to go with her looks and declined!
Looking forward to posting some photos with all the toys in their proper (spacious) environs.
I met a New Zealander up here some time ago and asked how long he was staying. "For good" said he....I said "you left Paradise to come to this frozen armpit of a Country?" He smiled and said " I was chasing a Canadian Girl" The poor bastard....
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Yep, chasing girls to far-flung corners is a Kiwi male tradition - two of my kids have met their partners in Scotland by some odd chance - but they tend to return home when they start having children, or their children reach school age
The piece of New Zealand I am playing with is in the Bay of Plenty - a piece with cheap rural land but the most sunshine hours in the country - so I follow all the "solar" conversations with interest
I just have to wear the employment yoke for a few more years then the plan is to retire to the sunshine and put my toys to use
Cheers
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If I was well enough to move, New Zealand is my top pick. One of the saner countries, and beautiful.
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Thanks Bruce
You and a billion others I suspect
Sadly, three decades of neo-liberal politics and four decades of privatisation and five decades of increasingly-powerful farmer-lobby and business-interest groups have left NZ as a painted facade of what it used to be strung out to cover what it now is:
We have increasingly conservative mainstream political views and an almost complete dismantling of the once-universal public health, welfare and housing schemes
Privatisation of the delivery of essential services such as power, water, energy, internet has created a bunch of semi-monopolies where energy supply companies and their ilk answer solely to their shareholders and what were once "services" and "rights" for ordinary Kiwis have become unaffordable luxuries for those at the bottom while those at the top are creaming it
The bell-curve of wealth distribution which was short, fat, and symmetrical 50 years ago is now enormously wide with no distinction between the squeezed-to-death middle-class working poor and genuine poor who, together, make up the big, wide, horizon-to-horizon "foot" of the bell. There's nothing where the "middle class" used to be, and there's a very narrow but exceedingly tall uber-wealthy 1% who own everything
The "capture" of government by farming and business lobbies has allowed developers to price land and housing out of the reach of ordinary folks (a professional couple with two good incomes will struggle to buy a house in any of our major cities) and has allowed farmers to privatise the profits of 100 years of "free" provision of infrastructure such as roads, electricity, water and waste-disposal (just dump it in the river); while the costs (housing & rental subsidies for working families, environmental clean-ups, a resurgence of third-world diseases such as Rheumatic Fever & Typhoid among the poor and homeless) are absorbed by the public purse
Despite living in an agrarian paradise, fresh produce (fruit, veges, dairy products, meat) are more expensive here than they are in the countries on the other side of the globe to which we export them; and the children of the poor are suffering an epidemic of rickets, type-two diabetes, chronic obesity and rotten teeth living on a diet of processed crap and McDonalds
Our once-pristine rivers (when i was a youth I tramped all over our hills, never owned a water-bottle and never hesitated to drink out of any stream) are down to about 5% "drinkable", 40% "swimmable" and the rest are only "wadeable" if you want to risk skin ailments
The folks who got rich pouring factory shit and farm effluent run-off into those rivers have long since retired to mansions around Queenstown where they share the pristine Southern Alpine environment with the American and European billionaries who helicopter in from time to time to their mansions. Meanwhile the folks who clean the toilets and mow the lawns of these mansions live in housing "schemes" subsidised by BOTH national and local government (the cost of subsidy is too high for just one branch of government to bear because of all the millions property developers have taken out of the local economy) - because housing is so expensive there that working folks were sleeping in their cars or moving elsewhere to the point that squillionaires couldn't get anyone to clean their helicopters or wash their windows
Despite all this it's still a pretty good place to live . . . in that there isn't much corruption, our cops don't carry guns, you can still see green stuff when you look out the windows and I still leave my house unlocked and my cars in the driveway with the keys in them
But our "clean green" image is just that - an image - and we do genuinely have poor and homeless folks who live in cars and whose kids are malnourised . . .
I don't have a vocabulary adequate to describe just how wrong it is for a country with the best natural resources in the world to have kids who are hungry and who go to school with cold bare, feet
Just my $0.02, as they say
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Thanks for your insights, Mike. I'm saddened to read that wealth and "democratic" capitalism has run it's usual course there as well. I should have realized that the same inherent forces would affect everywhere, not just the US. Here it seems that as people feel the pressure of declining real income, they get angry and want to dump on everyone below them, economically, or who are different in any way.
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G'day Bruce
I probably shouldn't have dumped that rant on you, but what the hell - I guess you caught me at a "get it all out" moment
Yes, sadly an inevitable result of our current "system" and the first-world's obsession with "growth"
Over 150 years ago it was recognised that Capital is merely Frozen Labour - the more capital amasses, the less the "labour" classes are able to enjoy the fruits of their labour . . . .
Never mind. Thoughtful people are always welcome here, Bruce
Cheers
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Thanks Mike,
I did some more online reading about the current socio-economic situation there in NZ. You pegged it concisely. So sad after the big improvements there between the wars and after WWII. There is only a short window after a world war where social improvements can be made, apparently.
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Yep. Dead right
Between the wars (slowing in the depression) we began infrastructure build alongside social change . . .
(Perhaps the best example of this is that Arnold Nordmeyer who was deeply involved with our first major national infrastructure project, our first big hydro-electric scheme, was later a Minister in the first Labour Government and was the author of our National Social Welfare scheme)
In the two decades after WW11, and benefiting from work done between the wars, we had a period of modest prosperity where a working-man's wages were enough to buy him and his wife a modest house and to allow her to stay home and bring up children (a whole heap of stereotypes there - but that was the thinking of the day) Government provided a lot of State Housing and a lot of employment, and there were no tycoons - not even any millionaires
In following decades, recognising that private enterprise could do things more efficiently, and mistaking efficiency for progress, successive governments (left and right) dismantled big government enterprises and "bought" those services off private enterprise which did what it always does in the absence of good regulations - took advantage
Perhaps the best example is electricity reticulation: Recognising that electricity=progress, government put poles and lines to far-flung corners where there were never going to be enough consumers to pay for them; but where there were farms and households who would benefit from them. Now, only 60 years after the most remote regions were "connected", the monopolist lines companies are telling folks at the ends of these lines "Sorry, you guys don't spend enough for us to justify keeping your lines maintained. Either you pay for them directly or we'll leave them to rot and you can build solar or micro-hydro . . . "
Perhaps it's progress?
Cheers
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Corporations are a marvelous legal fiction that function only to maximize profits for the shareholders. It is their only reason for being. Why people think they are going to run things in a responsible manner boggles my mind. They seem incapable of reading or learning from history.
The US power industry pulled some real beauties in the US with a trumped up "crisis" for new power, and nuclear power plants that typically cost 2-4x the budget and schedule. The recent smart meter thing was a classic- to date there is not one single state or country where there is any data to show that they have saved any energy at all. In the US, it was a big taxpayer hand out to the power co.s.
Germany was one of the only countries who looked for the data and then said thanks but no thanks.
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It does appear that the trust fund (Koch and friends here in the US) and corporate manipulation of our democracies is unstoppable. I keep hoping that generation Z or whatever comes next will wake up and change things. Tough to stop the steam roller when the average human electorate is so easily manipulated via media when hundreds million$ can be spent on a carefully researched and tested "message". Our emotional buttons are all too easily pushed.
When I attended am AF graduate program at AFIT for R&D managers we learned that even with high risk- "cost plus" (profit) contracts we could get the behavior we wanted by assigning it a financial value... such as a 10% contract bonus based on rated quality of reporting and such things as engineers only meetings (marketing and management exclusion). If a profit is attached, it happens, and we were shown many AF and Navy projects where well structured contracts with incentives for desired behaviors had proven effective. We were also shown examples of how it was done poorly, with ill considered and not well defined criteria.
I think it might be possible to harness the incredible engine of corporations- but it would take a brilliant new set of regulations and incentives to make them focus on things that benefit society as a whole. For that we may have to wait for our benevolent AI overlord or some other unlikely miracle. ::)
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A couple of interesting thoughts there, Bruce
The single biggest fragility here in our "system" is the deadly combination of a three-year electoral cycle and an absence of the cross-party support that is essential for longer-term projects: infrastructure, financial reform, social reform
Our current, slightly-left, pale-green government has begun some of the work needed to address our awful housing shortage. It will take decades of determined work on several fronts: Building more houses (private and state ownership), attacking profitable speculation, attacking slumlords, limiting overseas ownership, attacking land-banking, developing infrastructure to allow new builds where they are needed, simplifying complicated Resource Consent process to get things done faster . . .
Any one of these is a ten-year process before any real results will be seen. But, since the government's majority is slender, and since all those processes detailed above will reduce income/assets of the ruling classes and threaten businesses, government is likely to get voted out at the next election before it even gathers a head of steam for the necessary work
Centre/right parties agree and understand (privately) that this work is necessary, but also know they won't get back in power if they support such policies - thus no-one in parliament has the balls to organise a long-term cross-party support for necessary reform
The phrase "captured by industry" comes to mind
I have been arguing for years for some kind of benevolent dictatorship. Look at the things the Chinese get done without an opposition to answer to. But look at the awful social, political and environmental fallouts of their actions. "Effective dictatorship?" Yes. "Benign?" No
Maybe Iain Banks and his vision of the future is right and we will have to wait for a Silicone Dictatorship . . .
I too am getting old and tired and increasingly look at the mess and say "Sorry, my days are done. My children and grandchildren will have to deal with this"
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Lots of tough problems to sort out, and perhaps not too many decades before chaos; world fighting for food and water and massive relocations. Regulatory and political leadership capture by industry is a going to be near impossible to change.
I also have a less dim view of China and her accomplishments than most Americans. They remain the first and only country to acknowledge and do something about overpopulation, and no longer have large scale starvation. Sad to see them ignoring the lessons of poor environmental regulation- as badly as any democracy. I guess once the capitalistic genie is let out of the bottle that's what happens no matter the start. I have no doubt that regulatory and legislative capture is well underway.
My father's family hails from the Isle of Mann, so I took a google earth/streets tour and was amazed that...it looked just like everywhere else. I checked current home prices in US dollars and was astounded that they were so high...beyond the means of most working folks. That seems to be going on everywhere.
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Hi there Bruce
I was in the Isle of Man 2007 for the 100th running of the TT motorcycle races - a great event; and a former girlfriend is from there - a race of tough, innovative folk
The Chinese? While I acknowledge that their dictatorship "gets things done" (and that includes tackling the tough questions elected leaders shy away from), down here in the Pacific they are a real threat. Their "soft diplomacy", their buying power compared to the GDP of small island nations (including ours), their willingness to play a "long game" spanning many decades to get what they want and their expansion of military power into the Pacific – all these make them a low-key but serious and quite immediate threat to the settled order here
To put that into perspective, however, their antics in the period since WW2 in, say, Tibet or the South China Sea, are no different from those of the US in any number of Central/South American countries, or of Russia in Crimea or the Ukraine, or Britain in Ireland . . .
Interesting times
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It will be marvelous when the benevolent AI overlord disbands the world's militaries. That might help people might start looking at the long game for us as a species instead of assuming the end is near. (Apocalyptic Prophesy is an all time favorite superstition.)
I still remember the small, single story grade school nuclear bomb training of blackout curtains and huddling under our desks circa 1962 or 63. That was a real morale builder. Without a basement we should have been training to kiss our asses good bye.
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I just stumbled into an article about New Zealand. Your country was targeted by a financier named Kreigher, bankrolled by Banker's Trust corporation. I can only imagine the total cost to Kiwis.
Andrew Krieger
Andrew Krieger joined Banker’s Trust in 1986 after leaving a position at Solomon Brothers. He acquired an immediate reputation as a successful trader, and the company rewarded him by increasing his capital limit to $700 million, significantly more than the standard $50 million limit. This bankroll put him in a perfect position to profit from the Oct. 19, 1987 crash known now as Black Monday.
(For further reading, see "How Forex Speculators Profited From Famous Currency Meltdowns.")
Krieger focused on the New Zealand dollar (NZD), which he believed was vulnerable to short selling as part of a worldwide panic in financial assets. He applied the extraordinary leverage of 400:1 to his already high trading limit, acquiring a short position bigger than the New Zealand money supply. As a result of this trade, he netted $300 million in profits for his employer. The following year, he left the company with $3 million in his pocket from the trade.
Read more: The Most Famous Forex Traders Ever https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/100515/these-are-most-famous-forex-traders-ever.asp#ixzz5M5ibRA6s
Follow us: Investopedia on Facebook
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Hi Bruce
I have never heard of this guy and when I googled him I realised the story is about events of 30 years ago
I suspect the harm he did may have been to other traders rather than to the NZ economy? Our Govt still issues bonds today to raise $$ by way of debt (our national debt is about 22% of our GDP of 200 billion-ish) and S&Ps have us on an AA rating I think. We probably have 3.5%-ish growth - so we are boringly normal here
Our economy is healthy-ish but unimaginative
With our Clean Green image and old-fashioned, pasture-fed stock and easy-to-convert-to-organics styles of farming, we could be selling valuable niche, organic produce into high-end markets filled with health-obsessed and cashed-up consumers all around the First World
So what do we do? We make milk into milk powder and sell it on the commodity market to China
Perhaps our woes are self-inflicted lol
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I'm glad the jerk who profited from tanking the NZ dollar didn't do lasting harm.
Selling powdered milk has to be the bottom of the barrel. I went to high school in dairy country, many of my classmates milked before school. In the early 70's, the small dairy farms where going broke rapidly, even with federal price supports. Within a few years those still afloat had gone to just raising beef and fodder for same.
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Things have changed since then, Bruce. There's good money in milk - dairy land has rocketed in value to twice that of drystock.
It's just that dairy intensification is bad for the environment, and just selling our produce from what could be a pristine environment into the commodity market at the bottom of the food chain is a waste - we should be a lot further up the value-added chain
I don't feel there's a lasting future in just selling commodities. What happens when someone else finds a way to produce it cheaper? It's not smart thinking and we should be doing better but we chase the short term $$, as you do
Cheers
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Hi Guys, I`m a bit late to the conversation but here in Australia some people make a living out of going to the supermarket and buying all the baby formula milk powder they can get. They then post it to China where there is a huge demand for quality baby formula. There was some scare with melamine contamination in their home grown product.
Perhaps NZ should be turning some of it`s wonderful produce into baby food and exporting it to China to feed the largest infant population on earth.
Bob
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Yes indeed
Our pseudo-monopoly dairy export company, Fonterra, "invested" 3/4 of a $NZ billion of farmer-share-holder $$ the year before last in a joint venture with a Chinese company called Beingmate to do just that - sell high-quality infant formula to all those quality-conscious Chinese Mums
To date they have written off about 90% of the "investment" but continue to throw good money after bad . . .
They may get it right eventually, as, as you say, the market is there
I'm watching with interest . . .
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I did say I thought New Zealand should do it. the moment you get greedy multinational conglomerates involved it`s only going to go south. good luck
Bob
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Hello everyone
As I am a new member, I think I should start with this topic.
I'll apologize right away for my written English, which has a lot of google translator.
My passion for Lister began a short time ago, when I restored my mother's irrigation engine, which she bought when I was born (50 years ago). A Bernard 18A who is now working again.
Now I'm looking for a Lister 12/2 of 1957, which has not worked for more than 25 years.
I need help getting the manual of this engine to start studying.
BR
sirpedrosa
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you do not need a manual. Go to the WOK pages drill to 38AC and you will have far better info than the original manual.
2 start your own thread.
have fun and good luck.
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Thanks in advance to Tiger
As I said I'm a Lister Noob entusiast, and I need to know what means "WOK pages drill to 38AC".
Please do not mok me because my ignorance.
I realy need the highlight to this endeavour.
So please be kind with me. I'll report to everybody the ongoing works.
Best Regards to all, and GWE.
I'm looking to this engine on foto.
Sirpedrosa
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Go to the 'Home' page for the site and it's at the top. WOK = 'Wall of Knowledge'
There's all sorts of interesting stuff and as mentioned the build thread by 38AC contains most of everything you need to know, and the twins are not that much different to the singles.
Don't hit anything with a hammer, once you're past the strip down stage, anyway, and you'll be fine!
Cheers
Stef
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Thank you all kindly.
I opened the new thread here: http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.0