Lister Engine Forum

Alternative fuels => Waste Motor Oil => Topic started by: spencer1885 on December 16, 2010, 05:05:28 PM

Title: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 16, 2010, 05:05:28 PM
Does not seem to be many posts in general but there is no posting in waste motor oils.
Am I the only person using it to generate electric ever day?
People say they are using it and then they go very quiet.
A lot people talk about generating there own power but 2 years on they are still talking about it.
If your using wmo as a main fuel every day in a generator lets hear about it. 
Cheers
Matthew
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Tom on December 16, 2010, 05:37:44 PM
I just got a 55 gal drum of used Delo 400 that I plan to thin with 20% K1 that is about 12 years old and needs to be used up. How are you cleaning up your oil? I'll be filtering through a string filter.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 16, 2010, 06:00:57 PM
If its be sitting that long it should have settle out well.
Just put a barrel pump on the top and pump it in to plastic barrels.
I tip mine through three sock filters in to a oil barrel and them pump as i need it in to a jug and mix it to thin it.
Then I tip it in to the fuel tank which has three more sock filters on the top.
The engine has two extra one micron ten inch  filters before the stock Lister fuel filter.
All the sock filters are one micron.
I have a large holding tank which I get my oil from and this helps to settle out water before I put it in to the oil barrel.
I have had no problems with the Injection pump or the injector.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: vtmetro on December 16, 2010, 07:04:39 PM
Okay, be happy to contribute posts if I used it. So any suggestions on where and how to get it?
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 16, 2010, 07:16:16 PM
I would stick to diesel it's easier
 :)
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: vtmetro on December 17, 2010, 12:32:36 AM
I would stick to diesel it's easier
 :)
thanks
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: LowGear on December 17, 2010, 01:52:50 AM
Hi spencer1885,

The Saudi family thanks you too.

Casey
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 17, 2010, 04:43:15 PM
Hi spencer1885,

The Saudi family thanks you too.

Casey

What does that mean?
It's free
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 17, 2010, 04:51:03 PM
That confirms it just talk and no action.
There's no point in putting some wmo in just to try it or talking about how to cleaning it.
It works and is easy to clean but that's nothing to do with long term use as a sole fuel.
Where are the people using it every day?
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: vtmetro on December 17, 2010, 06:05:22 PM
I suppose if you're using it every day, and don't want to help others with information, you probably have an answer to your question.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 17, 2010, 06:26:47 PM
I suppose if you're using it every day, and don't want to help others with information, you probably have an answer to your question.


You asked where do you get WMO from.
If you can't work out that bit then there's no hope for you.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: LowGear on December 17, 2010, 06:33:42 PM
Hi spencer1885,

I guess I misread your
Quote
I would stick to diesel it's easier.
to mean that diesel is a better choice. †And please don't read anything into my phrase other than a poke in the ribs schoolboy joke.† I really read your "diesel is easier" as a joke as well.

I'm setting up my WMO tank this weekend.† A little of this and a little of that and first thing you know I'll have some ammunition in the war against the Saudis.† The weapon is still a two year program but I will be getting in their way as much as I can.

Casey
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 17, 2010, 06:41:07 PM
Hi spencer1885,

I guess I misread your
Quote
I would stick to diesel it's easier.
to mean that diesel is a better choice. †And please don't read anything into my phrase other than a poke in the ribs schoolboy joke.† I really read your "diesel is easier" as a joke as well.

I'm setting up my WMO tank this weekend.† A little of this and a little of that and first thing you know I'll have some ammunition in the war against the Saudis.† The weapon is still a two year program but I will be getting in their way as much as I can.

Casey


Nice one ;)
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: vtmetro on December 18, 2010, 02:43:05 AM
I thought you might have some personal tips or insights to share. Let me give you an example what I mean.

If someone asked me about where I get aluminum for casting I'd tell them the last batch I got of over 100 lbs was from a marine engine dealer. The repair shop gave me a barrel full of pistons, and some broken outdrive cases for ten bucks. I showed them some pix of a lathe I'd built and a milling attachment, and they were happy to help me out.

Now I figure somebody asking me that probably already knows they could buy it at a scrap yard, or melt down an old broken lawn chair, but they might not have thought of an marine dealer, so that's what they were asking -- was there some experience that I had in finding it they might not have thought of -- a personal tip.

Of course you don't have to do that if you don't want to. No problem. Have a nice day.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: LowGear on December 18, 2010, 06:34:46 AM
Oh!† Sorry, I was having too much fun to bare down on the subject.

Hi vtmetro,

I get mine out of the bottom of my engine.† It's really neat.† I put a pan down there and let the old dirty stuff drain out before I put the new stuff in.† I just changed the hydraulic oil in my tractor and the same program seems to have worked.†

I encourage a couple of people to change their oil here using the a fore mentioned system.† The fellow that OK'd the WVO pickup program at the local greasy spoon has five years of oil saved in his garage.† Just talking to folks about what my hobbies are.†

You know those oil dump places.† I think they might share their oil with you.† I don't think they get paid for their ecological efforts but rather do it because its the right thing and maybe people will learn to drive to their businesses.

Casey
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 18, 2010, 03:41:00 PM
I thought you might have some personal tips or insights to share. Let me give you an example what I mean.

If someone asked me about where I get aluminum for casting I'd tell them the last batch I got of over 100 lbs was from a marine engine dealer. The repair shop gave me a barrel full of pistons, and some broken outdrive cases for ten bucks. I showed them some pix of a lathe I'd built and a milling attachment, and they were happy to help me out.

Now I figure somebody asking me that probably already knows they could buy it at a scrap yard, or melt down an old broken lawn chair, but they might not have thought of an marine dealer, so that's what they were asking -- was there some experience that I had in finding it they might not have thought of -- a personal tip.

Of course you don't have to do that if you don't want to. No problem. Have a nice day.


Nothing wrong with asking and I can tell you,but the subject of waste motor oil for use in a diesel engine as fuel is well discussed one.
Lots of discussion on types, blends and how to filter it.
All the time I hear people say they tried it and it works.
It terns out they put a bit in and run the engine and that's the last you hear about it.
What I want is one or more people to tell us they use it every day for the last year or so as a sole fuel just mixed with a small amount of some thing to thin it.
There's no point in using wmo if you only use your generator as a back up.
If you use a generator to power your house every day then you would run wmo because diesel is to expensive.
Cheers
Spencer





Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: vtmetro on December 18, 2010, 03:54:54 PM
Hey, Low gear thanks for answering.

I did know I get WMO out of my '51 John Deere Model M after dragging trees, or my home made band saw mill's engine, †or my truck or my wife's car when I change the oil. And, I know I get WMO out of the Listeroid itself.

I guess I figured Matthew was going through 400+ gallons a year as a full time WMO burner, and unless he was a fleet or garage owner, that he might have some personal insights in finding, negotiating, and handling quantities of WMO beyond personal oil changes.

I also asked because most of the WVO (yes I know the topic is WMO, but the problems are similar) around here is now locked up by franchises whose signs at the back of restaurants warn that unauthorized removal is theft. The local oil change place uses their WMO for heat.

It also seemed like Matthew was alone in his first post with nobody to talk to about large scale WMO use, complaining that people here were "all talk and no action," and that people "went silent" after setting up for WMO, so I thought I'd offer a friendly reply. Seemed like he wanted to talk about the subject of full time WMO generation.

Supply seems to me like a pretty important topic as former "waste" streams of energy stock get bought up by larger and larger outfits. Maybe so important Lister owners using bulk WMO are afraid to reveal anything about their means of supply. That's fine. Understandable.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: WGB on December 18, 2010, 04:00:00 PM
I'm still setting up my system.
After I went through my Listeroid, I use diesel just to kind of break in the engine.
Been some sort of WMO from then on.
Filtering and PH are big issues.
New centrifuge is on it's way, filters to 1 micron.
I know guys that run WMO in trucks, haven't need to change the fuel filter in a year, after centrifuge cleaning.
Soon I will be running my shop, with the Listeroid and a Outback FLEXware 1000.
I generate a lot of used oil, trucks, tractors, etc. and have sources for more.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 18, 2010, 04:07:54 PM
Vtmetro,
 I am guessing you are in the USA and if so waste oil producers get paid for the oil they produce.
In the UK waste oil producers have to pay to get it taken away.
So waste oil is available free for the taking.
That,s another one covered.
Still am I the only one using it as fuel for a generator?
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 18, 2010, 04:17:08 PM
I'm still setting up my system.
After I went through my Listeroid, I use diesel just to kind of break in the engine.
Been some sort of WMO from then on.
Filtering and PH are big issues.
New centrifuge is on it's way, filters to 1 micron.
I know guys that run WMO in trucks, haven't need to change the fuel filter in a year, after centrifuge cleaning.
Soon I will be running my shop, with the Listeroid and a Outback FLEXware 1000.
I generate a lot of used oil, trucks, tractors, etc. and have sources for more.

Filtering and ph are not a problem.
You don't need a centrifuge to filter,
Tipping in wmo to fuel tanks on trucks is a different thing to running a generator on wmo.
The percentage of wmo to diesel in the trucks is very low.
If you put wmo in a generator you are going to be running it on a very high percentage of wmo or else its not worth doing.
The filtering and ph of the oil is not the issue.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: vtmetro on December 18, 2010, 04:50:07 PM
Fair enough. UK, US, different economics. But, there are exceptions to every rule, and that's where the interest lies. In fact that's what I wanted to know in the first place.

Okay then let's start over again, let me rephrase my first question, (not to you Spencer, necessarily, but to anyone who wants to talk about it):

I (and I imagine others) would like to hear from anyone who has personal experience with obtaining bulk WMO (not diesel fuel) for the purpose of generating full time, (not emergency use) (not from draining their own auto at an oil change), in the United States, (not the UK), from an unusual (not obvious) source (not an oil change shop or recycling dropoff) free (not for money). Don't name your supplier and town, but it would be helpful to learn how to set up a similar situation in a different town so we can be more like spencer and gab together about full time WMO use on more or less the same level.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 18, 2010, 05:09:41 PM
Before you get to excited about wmo as a free fuel in a diesel engine I would just say its good as a fuel in a burner or boiler to heat your house but that's as far as you should go in time and expense.
I would not set up a generator to run on wmo as the results so far are not good in comparison to using it for heating
This is why I what some more full time users to come in and give there experiences to date, or may be there aren't any.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: LowGear on December 18, 2010, 05:13:46 PM
Dang, I had this all really great reply ready to post and you asked the question more pointedly. †OK!

I worked at a body shop for a while. †They did a couple of oil changes a day. †It was a pain for them to get rid of their oil. †They would have welcomed you stopping by once a month.† My winter palace is on a golfcourse. †They're very concerned about their WMO getting spilled by the slam bang company that picks it up.

How many gallons a day do you require? †How many gallons a day are you burning at this time.

Casey
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 18, 2010, 05:22:47 PM
Dang, I had this all really great reply ready to post and you asked the question more pointedly. †OK!

I worked at a body shop for a while. †They did a couple of oil changes a day. †It was a pain for them to get rid of their oil. †They would have welcomed you stopping by once a month.† My winter palace is on a golfcourse. †They're very concerned about their WMO getting spilled by the slam bang company that picks it up.

How many gallons a day do you require? †How many gallons a day are you burning at this time.

Casey

I am not sure who you are asking
I can say I don't need any more thank's but I am using a lot at the moment minus 6 degrees last night.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: vtmetro on December 18, 2010, 07:04:28 PM
Before you get to excited about wmo as a free fuel in a diesel engine I would just say its good as a fuel in a burner or boiler to heat your house but that's as far as you should go in time and expense.
I would not set up a generator to run on wmo as the results so far are not good in comparison to using it for heating
This is why I what some more full time users to come in and give there experiences to date, or may be there aren't any.

Huh? Well that changes things 180 degrees, I thought you were saying you used it full time, it was simple to do, didn't need a centrifuge, and it was a good thing. So you use it full time and yet it isn't a good thing?

Well, I guess I'm not totally surprised. I was interested because I thought you had a lot of experience with a working and workable system. Sorry to hear it isn't. Now I know why you want to hear from others using WMO. So, okay, what are the problems you are having?

ps. as far as heating my home with WMO, nope, not interested. I don't want an oil burner. I use wood. In fact I just cut two windfalls up and loaded them on the tractor between this and the last post.

If I could run a Lister off of wood I'd do that, too, but I have yet to see a practical long term non-creosote producing low engine wearing woodgas generator anywhere.

I do have a lot of experience in wood chip gasification, and methane digester development, and both of those are problematic for engine operation (on our scale) as well, so don't feel alone.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: vtmetro on December 18, 2010, 07:15:41 PM
@Lowgear, excellent suggestions! I like it. No golf course here, but definitely body shops. Though now I'm wondering if WMO is a good idea if Spencer isn't pro, but con.

Don't know quantity per year needed, yet, but I was thinking something like 4 hours a day run time on a 6/1. I have batts and an inverter with auto transfer switch.

I had been thinking more in terms of WVO until I came across this thread and re-considered. I'm doing methane digester development, but don't expect to run the Lister off of that other than as a brief demo run. The experimental digesters are much too small for any continuous running. The Lister is being set-up to provide CHP for the digester shed -- the digester needs to be at 100F internally, and there are pumps and gear to power with the electricity generated.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 18, 2010, 07:47:02 PM
Before you get to excited about wmo as a free fuel in a diesel engine I would just say its good as a fuel in a burner or boiler to heat your house but that's as far as you should go in time and expense.
I would not set up a generator to run on wmo as the results so far are not good in comparison to using it for heating
This is why I what some more full time users to come in and give there experiences to date, or may be there aren't any.

Huh? Well that changes things 180 degrees, I thought you were saying you used it full time, it was simple to do, didn't need a centrifuge, and it was a good thing. So you use it full time and yet it isn't a good thing?

Well, I guess I'm not totally surprised. I was interested because I thought you had a lot of experience with a working and workable system. Sorry to hear it isn't. Now I know why you want to hear from others using WMO. So, okay, what are the problems you are having?

ps. as far as heating my home with WMO, nope, not interested. I don't want an oil burner. I use wood. In fact I just cut two windfalls up and loaded them on the tractor between this and the last post.

If I could run a Lister off of wood I'd do that, too, but I have yet to see a practical long term non-creosote producing low engine wearing woodgas generator anywhere.

I do have a lot of experience in wood chip gasification, and methane digester development, and both of those are problematic for engine operation (on our scale) as well, so don't feel alone.


I  know about all the points already mentioned from first hand experience.
If you can get as much free wood as you need then you would not need wmo heating that goes with out saying.

I am not telling you or any one else to us it I just stated it is best used as a fuel for burning for heat.
As for not using woodgas to fuel your generator if as you say you have access to free wood because of maintenance problems then I would say to you use diesel it's easier.
Yes I want to hear from people with real life experience of running a lister on a full time basis using wmo.
I have had to learn as I have gone along and I am generating power now with the lister,but the maintenance is high.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: vtmetro on December 18, 2010, 09:53:18 PM
Got it. Apologies for misunderstanding earlier.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Bottleveg on December 19, 2010, 09:24:11 AM
Spencer, what problems are you getting from using wmo?
Iíve been using Ĺ micron filtered wmo in my Lister, but not long term. The only thing I find, so far and in this cold weather, is the engine will turn over for longer before firing.
Have you tried hydraulic fluid? I think this maybe a better option due to lower contamination.
Iíve been using wmo to power my c/heating boiler for the past three years and no problems.
Another option for those who are after wmo is vehicle dismantlers. In the UK vehicles have to be evacuated of all fluids before they go to the metal recyclers, this includes the fuel tanks so would provide a good thinning agent.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: WGB on December 19, 2010, 12:44:31 PM
I'm still setting up my system.
After I went through my Listeroid, I use diesel just to kind of break in the engine.
Been some sort of WMO from then on.
Filtering and PH are big issues.
New centrifuge is on it's way, filters to 1 micron.
I know guys that run WMO in trucks, haven't need to change the fuel filter in a year, after centrifuge cleaning.
Soon I will be running my shop, with the Listeroid and a Outback FLEXware 1000.
I generate a lot of used oil, trucks, tractors, etc. and have sources for more.

Filtering and ph are not a problem.
You don't need a centrifuge to filter,
Tipping in wmo to fuel tanks on trucks is a different thing to running a generator on wmo.
The percentage of wmo to diesel in the trucks is very low.
If you put wmo in a generator you are going to be running it on a very high percentage of wmo or else its not worth doing.
The filtering and ph of the oil is not the issue.


Some sort of WMO = All I have run in the Lister is 100 % WMO, hydraulic, trans, vacuum pump oil,† etc. after break in.
The guys running it in trucks are running more that tipping in WMO.
I'm thick as a brick, guess I'm not sure what your asking?
I run the Lister evertime I'm out there, almost everyday, lights, small air compressors, 110 volt welder, 3/4 hp water pump, furnace, etc.
Been running from June of 09.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 19, 2010, 01:17:05 PM
Spencer1885

You wrote "maintenance is high." Well you got that right.

My experience is with a 10/1 roid being run to generate heat in a large shop, 4050 square feet. I use as much waste motor + waste hydraulic oil as possible.

I do have some old number 2 diesel that I thin with but the supply of it is limited so I run about 85% used oil.

I generate the oil as a farmer and a small repair shop + i buy some + some is given to me to just get rid of it.

One guy just gave me 500 gallons and then the next guy made me pay .05Cents per quart for about 500 gallons he actually owed me money so it was more a barter deal for implement rent.

As far as maintenance the roid does carbon up the pre cup and injector tip pretty quickly, I find on 85 % wmo I am thinking of just swapping injectors daily as the roid is now running mostly 24 hours a day. I seems the carbon builds up on the injector tip and it will break loose and fall into the piston area and boy does that cause about 5 seconds of KNOCKING that when heard the first time makes you think all is lost. But it does clear and then a few hours later KNOCK their it goes again makes me wounder what the top of the aluminum piston looks like. So far no bent valves or other problems from the abuse of the waste fuel. Although I am experiencing poor starting, not much of a problem when running 24 X 7 but some one on this forum wrote to let your engine tell you when to de carbon I believe my engine is begging as I am thinking the rings may be getting carboned up and the compression is lacking because of it. Or the injector nozzle is weakening, I do have 2 new nozzles in my possession but I am waiting for a friend to bring by a nozzle crack test devise so that I can compare the pressure of the 2 new ones and the old one that has about 1100 hours on it.

Well enough for now it is time for my 10/1's morning valve lube job. Running one of these for heat reminds me of having to tend a wood stove........

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 19, 2010, 02:21:41 PM
Spencer, what problems are you getting from using wmo?
Iíve been using Ĺ micron filtered wmo in my Lister, but not long term. The only thing I find, so far and in this cold weather, is the engine will turn over for longer before firing.
Have you tried hydraulic fluid? I think this maybe a better option due to lower contamination.
Iíve been using wmo to power my c/heating boiler for the past three years and no problems.
Another option for those who are after wmo is vehicle dismantlers. In the UK vehicles have to be evacuated of all fluids before they go to the metal recyclers, this includes the fuel tanks so would provide a good thinning agent.

Starting is not a problem as I have been shunting it down on diesel.
Some times or most of the times its late at night and I can't be bothered to wait for the diesel to purge the system fully but it still starts ok.
The temperature to day is minus 10 degrees.
I have also being using wmo for heating as you so you must be used to seeing the white ash that's produced.
I have used hydraulic oil but not as a sole fuel for long enough so I can't tell if there would be less problems.
I think its the long term where the real problems are.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 19, 2010, 02:25:47 PM
I'm still setting up my system.
After I went through my Listeroid, I use diesel just to kind of break in the engine.
Been some sort of WMO from then on.
Filtering and PH are big issues.
New centrifuge is on it's way, filters to 1 micron.
I know guys that run WMO in trucks, haven't need to change the fuel filter in a year, after centrifuge cleaning.
Soon I will be running my shop, with the Listeroid and a Outback FLEXware 1000.
I generate a lot of used oil, trucks, tractors, etc. and have sources for more.
How many hours has the engine run on wmo with at least 75% wmo or more?

Filtering and ph are not a problem.
You don't need a centrifuge to filter,
Tipping in wmo to fuel tanks on trucks is a different thing to running a generator on wmo.
The percentage of wmo to diesel in the trucks is very low.
If you put wmo in a generator you are going to be running it on a very high percentage of wmo or else its not worth doing.
The filtering and ph of the oil is not the issue.


Some sort of WMO = All I have run in the Lister is 100 % WMO, hydraulic, trans, vacuum pump oil,† etc. after break in.
The guys running it in trucks are running more that tipping in WMO.
I'm thick as a brick, guess I'm not sure what your asking?
I run the Lister evertime I'm out there, almost everyday, lights, small air compressors, 110 volt welder, 3/4 hp water pump, furnace, etc.
Been running from June of 09.

Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Bottleveg on December 19, 2010, 02:50:55 PM
Hi Spencer, yes I get the white ash in the bottom of the burner. If I get smoke from the top of my stack then itís time to vacuum. My burner will cope with minus 100 micron so I filter to 50. Just tip through a nylon filter sock. The lower I go the less ash I get. Long term settling helps.
 Could water injection be a replacement for de-carboning? Iíve heard good results for curing ring gumming on wvo cars.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 19, 2010, 02:57:27 PM
Spencer1885

You wrote "maintenance is high." Well you got that right.

My experience is with a 10/1 roid being run to generate heat in a large shop, 4050 square feet. I use as much waste motor + waste hydraulic oil as possible.

I do have some old number 2 diesel that I thin with but the supply of it is limited so I run about 85% used oil.

I generate the oil as a farmer and a small repair shop + i buy some + some is given to me to just get rid of it.

One guy just gave me 500 gallons and then the next guy made me pay .05Cents per quart for about 500 gallons he actually owed me money so it was more a barter deal for implement rent.

As far as maintenance the roid does carbon up the pre cup and injector tip pretty quickly, I find on 85 % wmo I am thinking of just swapping injectors daily as the roid is now running mostly 24 hours a day. I seems the carbon builds up on the injector tip and it will break loose and fall into the piston area and boy does that cause about 5 seconds of KNOCKING that when heard the first time makes you think all is lost. But it does clear and then a few hours later KNOCK their it goes again makes me wounder what the top of the aluminum piston looks like. So far no bent valves or other problems from the abuse of the waste fuel. Although I am experiencing poor starting, not much of a problem when running 24 X 7 but some one on this forum wrote to let your engine tell you when to de carbon I believe my engine is begging as I am thinking the rings may be getting carboned up and the compression is lacking because of it. Or the injector nozzle is weakening, I do have 2 new nozzles in my possession but I am waiting for a friend to bring by a nozzle crack test devise so that I can compare the pressure of the 2 new ones and the old one that has about 1100 hours on it.

Well enough for now it is time for my 10/1's morning valve lube job. Running one of these for heat reminds me of having to tend a wood stove........

Billswan

I found using Rug to thin the wmo helped a lot as far as reducing the coke on the injector.
As you say a lump of carbon breaks off and the engine sounds like its going to smash, but always clears.
I stripped my Lister down when the head gasket blow at about 1800 hours of being run on wmo.
 Before that I fitted a new piston and rings and a good second hand barrel
So it was all good at the start of the 1800 hours
What I found when I stripped it at the 1800 hours was a very clean engine with no carbon or not more than a engine run on diesel.
The piston was clean, the rings and also the head and ports.

What I did find was the rings where worn out and the bore on the exhaust side had worn through the chrome.
The rings being worn out I was not surprised as I had read on the web site of Old style Listers that running wmo would wear them out but no explanation why.
The bore I am not sure if that's just bad luck, I just did not know.
 
I have a waste oil burner and that produces lots of white ash and the Lister makes some white ash also so I am wondering if this white ash is wearing the rings and bore away.
This wear is happening to a point of being a problem as the engine hours increase.
If this is in fact is what's happening then you will not notice any problems until the engine gets to about 1800 hours or so.
This is why I want to speak to other long tern wmo users.

Spencer
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 19, 2010, 07:28:11 PM
Spencer

Well you wrote "This wear is happening to a point of being a problem as the engine hours increase.
If this is in fact is what's happening then you will not notice any problems until the engine gets to about 1800 hours or so."

My 10/1 is at just short of 1200 hours 95% of it on WMO and at 24 X 7 operation and continued cold weather that makes me get to 1800 hours in about 25 days at soonest. So we will see. If all goes well and no failures that is my plan to keep thumping along and using up some of my backlog of wmo.

It is my guess that the bore and rings are failing as it does not seem to have the compression it used to have. May be 300 hours on an oil change is just way to much. When I do change oil I have a 3 inch ring magnet on the side of the bottom of the deepest sump and it is always pretty thick with wear particles. So may be the bore is going away.........

I wounder if there are any better quality sleeve's and rings for a 10/1. The stuff in my omega branded 10/1 seemed to be all bottom of the barrel. No chrome sleeve's here :D :D

Now back to tend the wood stove or I mean clean the Injector as the 10/1 is starting to send up smoke signals ::) ::)

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 19, 2010, 07:55:55 PM
Spencer

Well you wrote "This wear is happening to a point of being a problem as the engine hours increase.
If this is in fact is what's happening then you will not notice any problems until the engine gets to about 1800 hours or so."

My 10/1 is at just short of 1200 hours 95% of it on WMO and at 24 X 7 operation and continued cold weather that makes me get to 1800 hours in about 25 days at soonest. So we will see. If all goes well and no failures that is my plan to keep thumping along and using up some of my backlog of wmo.

It is my guess that the bore and rings are failing as it does not seem to have the compression it used to have. May be 300 hours on an oil change is just way to much. When I do change oil I have a 3 inch ring magnet on the side of the bottom of the deepest sump and it is always pretty thick with wear particles. So may be the bore is going away.........

I wounder if there are any better quality sleeve's and rings for a 10/1. The stuff in my omega branded 10/1 seemed to be all bottom of the barrel. No chrome sleeve's here :D :D

Now back to tend the wood stove or I mean clean the Injector as the 10/1 is starting to send up smoke signals ::) ::)

Billswan

If you could post your findings when you take the engine apart that would be very helpful.
I am not sure what your saying about your oil change time at 300 hours because if this ring and bore damage is going on then its the WMO that's burnt in the cylinder that makes the ash which is wearing the parts out and nothing to do with the oil in the sump.
My Lister has 2400 hours on it so its still going but it does sound noisy from the top end and is breathing a lot.
If only the rings wear out then that's no big deal, but if the bore is going to keep wearing out in 1800 hours then that a different
 story.
 spencer
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Tom on December 20, 2010, 12:37:26 AM
I'm shocked at how easy it was to find WMO. Since I'm a volunteer firefighter, I asked the chief what they do with the oil when it's changed in the engines. I figured that might be some good relativity low mileage clean oil. In the course of the conversation one of the other volunteers who's dad owns a couple of trucks heard that I was looking for WMO and he delivered a drum of used delo 400 that is claimed to be clean drain oil with no other contaminants mixed in. I was heading out to crack into the drum today and filter some, I use a 10 micron house hold string filter, but the rain returned with a vengeance.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: buickanddeere on December 20, 2010, 03:24:08 AM
Spencer1885

You wrote "maintenance is high." Well you got that right.



As far as maintenance the roid does carbon up the pre cup and injector tip pretty quickly, I find on 85 % wmo I am thinking of just swapping injectors daily as the roid is now running mostly 24 hours a day. I seems the carbon builds up on the injector tip and it will break loose and fall into the piston area and boy does that cause about 5 seconds of KNOCKING that when heard the first time makes you think all is lost. But it does clear and then a few hours later KNOCK their it goes again makes me wounder what the top of the aluminum piston looks like. So far no bent valves or other problems from the abuse of the waste fuel. Although I am experiencing poor starting, not much of a problem when running 24 X 7 but some one on this forum wrote to let your engine tell you when to de carbon I believe my engine is begging as I am thinking the rings may be getting carboned up and the compression is lacking because of it. Or the injector nozzle is weakening, I do have 2 new nozzles in my possession but I am waiting for a friend to bring by a nozzle crack test devise so that I can compare the pressure of the 2 new ones and the old one that has about 1100 hours on it.




 Can you rig something to heat the line between the injection pump and the injector?
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 20, 2010, 01:40:04 PM
Spencer1885

You wrote "maintenance is high." Well you got that right.



As far as maintenance the roid does carbon up the pre cup and injector tip pretty quickly, I find on 85 % wmo I am thinking of just swapping injectors daily as the roid is now running mostly 24 hours a day. I seems the carbon builds up on the injector tip and it will break loose and fall into the piston area and boy does that cause about 5 seconds of KNOCKING that when heard the first time makes you think all is lost. But it does clear and then a few hours later KNOCK their it goes again makes me wounder what the top of the aluminum piston looks like. So far no bent valves or other problems from the abuse of the waste fuel. Although I am experiencing poor starting, not much of a problem when running 24 X 7 but some one on this forum wrote to let your engine tell you when to de carbon I believe my engine is begging as I am thinking the rings may be getting carboned up and the compression is lacking because of it. Or the injector nozzle is weakening, I do have 2 new nozzles in my possession but I am waiting for a friend to bring by a nozzle crack test devise so that I can compare the pressure of the 2 new ones and the old one that has about 1100 hours on it.




 Can you rig something to heat the line between the injection pump and the injector?

When I originally started down this road towards a roid on wmo a injector line heater was one of the things that I was going to incorporate into the mix of accessories.

I did get the WMO filter and line to the injector pump heated but never went any farther. The first few hundred hours were ran on %'s of blends more like 50 / 50 so with that kind of fuel I believe any one here with any experience would agree it is not necessary to heat that. But then after going to these higher %'s like 85% and 100% well here we are with carbon problems. Does a hot injector line relieve coking the tip and the chamber?? It seamed reading on this forum I was lead to believe it might just be a waste of time? But if someone here could tell me it worked for them then by all means I would try it.

It would seam to me the last 2.5 inches of injector are deep in the head and it would seam that the oil in the tip would be at the temp of the head or so it seams to me. When starting I always start on diesel and bring motor to full operating temp before switching to oil. And about 5 minutes at shutdown to clear the pump and injector. You learn real fast to not shut down on oil of any type, a failure once caused me to have to and the following restart was challenging with only a hand crank.
Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 20, 2010, 05:07:10 PM
The point is it does not matter how clean the WMO is or how clean you filter it or if you heat the injector or if you thin the WMO what I am saying is that burning WMO makes a fine white ash and its the ash that is abrasive and is wearing the rings and bore out.
If this is the case then it means using WMO as a fuel in a diesel is not viable.
Does any one see what I am saying.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Tijean on December 20, 2010, 05:24:26 PM
Spencer, is there any evidence of excess wear in the hp injection system or is only in parts exposed to the combustion gasses?
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 20, 2010, 05:56:25 PM
Spencer, is there any evidence of excess wear in the hp injection system or is only in parts exposed to the combustion gasses?

The fuel injection system is not having any problems with WMO ,there is no wear or damage .
The WMO is only wearing the cylinder and rings because when the oil is burnt up in the cylinder it produces the ash which I think is abrasive .
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Tom on December 20, 2010, 06:25:57 PM
I hear what you're saying on the wear. My question is why it would only wear on a spot in the chrome and not around the whole diameter of the piston. Since I'm running a roid and liners are fairly cheap it doesn't seem like a big deal to replace rings and liner every 5 years or so. I'm seeing a lot more ash from the hydraulic oil than WMO, but the WHO is used up and a nice full drum of WMO awaits.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 20, 2010, 06:39:51 PM
I hear what you're saying on the wear. My question is why it would only wear on a spot in the chrome and not around the whole diameter of the piston. Since I'm running a roid and liners are fairly cheap it doesn't seem like a big deal to replace rings and liner every 5 years or so. I'm seeing a lot more ash from the hydraulic oil than WMO, but the WHO is used up and a nice full drum of WMO awaits.

If you have a liner and it cheap to buy then that's good, but if what seems to be happening to the rings and bore is what's going to keep happening I would have to replace the bore twice in one year and that going to be costly.
We are only talking 1800 hours to wear these parts out and that's not long.
The chrome bore wear is under the exhaust side as that's the hottest and driest part of the bore.
If it's going to take you fives year to wear yours out you can't be using it much ,I use my Lister every day to charge batteries ,about 8 hours a day.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Tijean on December 20, 2010, 07:35:02 PM
Spencer, when you pull the engine down does the space between the top ring to the top of the piston appear to be caked hard full of the ash deposit? Is the top ring groove (behind the ring) also mostly full of it. If it is building up on the piston and in ring grooves and allowing blow by plus becoming an active thrust surface that may be the cause.

That side of the cylinder gets the most direct flame impingement because of where the opening is from the pre combustion chamber and is also the major thrust side of the engine.

Some particular oil fields have soluble heavy metals that make them pure poison to refineries; possible some of the things they put in lubricating oil or contaminates it makes it bad medicine when you burn a steady diet of it.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 20, 2010, 07:48:54 PM
Spencer, when you pull the engine down does the space between the top ring to the top of the piston appear to be caked hard full of the ash deposit? Is the top ring groove (behind the ring) also mostly full of it. If it is building up on the piston and in ring grooves and allowing blow by plus becoming an active thrust surface that may be the cause.

That side of the cylinder gets the most direct flame impingement because of where the opening is from the pre combustion chamber and is also the major thrust side of the engine.

Some particular oil fields have soluble heavy metals that make them pure poison to refineries; possible some of the things they put in lubricating oil or contaminates it makes it bad medicine when you burn a steady diet of it.

When I pulled the engine apart at 1800 hour when the head gasket blow there was no coking or ash on the piston in the rings or any where at all.
It seems the ash is being blown out the exhaust but its wearing the moving parts when its in there.
The engine was very clean ,cleaner than I was expecting.
The thrust sides of the bore had no wear just one place under the exhaust valve.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Tijean on December 20, 2010, 08:24:00 PM
Then you are thinking it is perhaps a "sand blasting" effect? Is there signs of wear showing up on the lower projection of the exhaust valve guide that should show if the abrasive effect is blowing in the wind.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Tom on December 20, 2010, 08:57:59 PM
I hear what you're saying on the wear. My question is why it would only wear on a spot in the chrome and not around the whole diameter of the piston. Since I'm running a roid and liners are fairly cheap it doesn't seem like a big deal to replace rings and liner every 5 years or so. I'm seeing a lot more ash from the hydraulic oil than WMO, but the WHO is used up and a nice full drum of WMO awaits.

If you have a liner and it cheap to buy then that's good, but if what seems to be happening to the rings and bore is what's going to keep happening I would have to replace the bore twice in one year and that going to be costly.
We are only talking 1800 hours to wear these parts out and that's not long.
The chrome bore wear is under the exhaust side as that's the hottest and driest part of the bore.
If it's going to take you fives year to wear yours out you can't be using it much ,I use my Lister every day to charge batteries ,about 8 hours a day.

I charge batteries with mine too, it only takes about 200 hours per year to make up for the lack of sun on the PV panels in the winter. On the last order of spare parts the liners were $10 and the ring set put me back a whopping $2.90. 8)
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 20, 2010, 09:03:55 PM
I hear what you're saying on the wear. My question is why it would only wear on a spot in the chrome and not around the whole diameter of the piston. Since I'm running a roid and liners are fairly cheap it doesn't seem like a big deal to replace rings and liner every 5 years or so. I'm seeing a lot more ash from the hydraulic oil than WMO, but the WHO is used up and a nice full drum of WMO awaits.

If you have a liner and it cheap to buy then that's good, but if what seems to be happening to the rings and bore is what's going to keep happening I would have to replace the bore twice in one year and that going to be costly.
We are only talking 1800 hours to wear these parts out and that's not long.
The chrome bore wear is under the exhaust side as that's the hottest and driest part of the bore.
If it's going to take you fives year to wear yours out you can't be using it much ,I use my Lister every day to charge batteries ,about 8 hours a day.

I charge batteries with mine too, it only takes about 200 hours per year to make up for the lack of sun on the PV panels in the winter. On the last order of spare parts the liners were $10 and the ring set put me back a whopping $2.90. 8)

Well your sorted then.
My system is generator and batteries only
This set up cost me less than a £1000 but if had solar as a main supply like you it would have cost £15000
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 20, 2010, 09:05:19 PM
Then you are thinking it is perhaps a "sand blasting" effect? Is there signs of wear showing up on the lower projection of the exhaust valve guide that should show if the abrasive effect is blowing in the wind.

I'm thinking more like grinding paste
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Tijean on December 20, 2010, 10:13:41 PM
Then you are thinking it is perhaps a "sand blasting" effect? Is there signs of wear showing up on the lower projection of the exhaust valve guide that should show if the abrasive effect is blowing in the wind.

I'm thinking more like grinding paste

I know this borders on insulting, but just askin, is your intake air cleaner of spotless reputation? I have torn down engines that were taken down by running without or damaged air cleaners but the wear was excessive but fairly well distributed so yours seems to have something peculiar to the WMO.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 20, 2010, 10:31:19 PM
Then you are thinking it is perhaps a "sand blasting" effect? Is there signs of wear showing up on the lower projection of the exhaust valve guide that should show if the abrasive effect is blowing in the wind.

I'm thinking more like grinding paste

I know this borders on insulting, but just askin, is your intake air cleaner of spotless reputation? I have torn down engines that were taken down by running without or damaged air cleaners but the wear was excessive but fairly well distributed so yours seems to have something peculiar to the WMO.

Yes it has a air cleaner and is in a dust free shed.
I am sure this extreme wear must be the WMO
This is why I need to speak to other users who have been clocking up high hours using WMO as a full time fuel.
The web site of Old Style Listers said you will wear the rings out using WMO as a fuel but did not say why.
There web site has changed so it no longer has the information, but it did not say any thing about the bore.
But if the rings are going to wear out in less than 1800 hours then you would think the bore would wear also.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 21, 2010, 12:43:50 AM
Spencer1885

I am sure glad you started this thread just at a time when I am starting to experience the wear you speak of.

How often do your change oil?

I have been working up to 300 hours and will stay there for now. The oil is very thick and black, it starts out as 30w rotella and is total garbage when it is changed out. I was thinking maybe going past 200 hours would make it worse but it doesn't seam to be any worse at 300 hours, thicker or sticker that is.

I hear what you are saying about the ash being abrasive, when the injector is out and the piston is at TDC both valves closed I have used an air hose pointed straight down into the empty injector hole and have been able to blow out quite a bit of ash and carbon debris. The air blower and my hand then look like I have been playing in an ash bin. I will pay more attention next time I do it,I do believe the the stuff on my hand is like you say abrasive.

So if the injector pump and injector are handling it and not wearing out the only explanation is the additives in the oil are the culprits.
I have to wounder if the splash lube for the cylinder walls is not enough for the more abrasive fuel. If a modification to the oiling system increasing cylinder wall oiling would help or just make the engine use oil. Right now my 10/1 uses no oil except for some leaks which are my fault in not sealing studs well enough.
 
Did your engine start to use oil just before you disassembled it?
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 21, 2010, 03:47:47 PM
Spencer1885

I am sure glad you started this thread just at a time when I am starting to experience the wear you speak of.

How often do your change oil?

I have been working up to 300 hours and will stay there for now. The oil is very thick and black, it starts out as 30w rotella and is total garbage when it is changed out. I was thinking maybe going past 200 hours would make it worse but it doesn't seam to be any worse at 300 hours, thicker or sticker that is.

I hear what you are saying about the ash being abrasive, when the injector is out and the piston is at TDC both valves closed I have used an air hose pointed straight down into the empty injector hole and have been able to blow out quite a bit of ash and carbon debris. The air blower and my hand then look like I have been playing in an ash bin. I will pay more attention next time I do it,I do believe the the stuff on my hand is like you say abrasive.

So if the injector pump and injector are handling it and not wearing out the only explanation is the additives in the oil are the culprits.
I have to wounder if the splash lube for the cylinder walls is not enough for the more abrasive fuel. If a modification to the oiling system increasing cylinder wall oiling would help or just make the engine use oil. Right now my 10/1 uses no oil except for some leaks which are my fault in not sealing studs well enough.

Did your engine start to use oil just before you disassembled it?


Have not noticed any difference in the oil in the sump.
I was changing it every 500 hours.
I have not changed the oil at the last 500 hours as I have to top it up every day with about 3/4 of a litre or so ,as its breathing so much and blowing the oil out.
When I pulled it apart when the head gasket blow I did not put new rings in to replace the worn out rings I just stuck in a better set of second hand rings I already had.
This probably is when the oil consumption started to increase as the rings probably did not seal very well on the worn bore.
If when you strip your engine and your bore is good but the rings are worn out then that's good news as a set of rings is cheap but if the bore has worn out then it starts to get pricey.
If I could get a year out of a bore then it would be more viable.
I have got a Lister FR1 which I am going to set up on waste motor oil and see how that runs on it.
I have a spare engine so if the FR1 wears its bore and rings I can use the spare engine for parts and I should get a year out of it that way.
If the WMO is the problem then once I have used up the engines I have I will abandon the project.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 21, 2010, 06:40:51 PM
Spencer 1885

Her is a pix of the piston in my 10/1 it was taken during the rebuild after buying the Indian motor. The piston only has what ever time on it the Indians run them to prove they run I guess. I never started it and am glad as it was very polluted with sand and machining debris.

(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=465&g2_serialNumber=2)

Now remember this is a larger bore than a 6/1 and with the higher rpm the piston is aluminum. Now take notice of the rings you will see there are 2 oil rings one with a spiral expander. The engine came to me with a few spare parts like head gasket which was beat up just like the one in the engine and 1 complete set of spare rings. Now interestingly enough the spare ring set has only 1 oil ring and 4 plain compression rings. And quality wise they don't look so great. Make's me wonder what is right?
Like I said my oil control is great but I know the engine is having blow by and lots of it. I do have the blow by routed to the intake which might be fatal if the blow by starts to carry oil back into the intake.† But for now those 2 oil rings are doing there job and keeping the oil in the case. This is the only Lister type motor I have experience with although I do own a 16/1 metro which will probably take the place of this motor some day. Is your Lister a 6/1 or other, I see you mentioned a Fr1?
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 21, 2010, 06:55:49 PM
Spencer 1885

Her is a pix of the piston in my 10/1 it was taken during the rebuild after buying the Indian motor. The piston only has what ever time on it the Indians run them to prove they run I guess. I never started it and am glad as it was very polluted with sand and machining debris.

(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=465&g2_serialNumber=2)

Now remember this is a larger bore than a 6/1 and with the higher rpm the piston is aluminum. Now take notice of the rings you will see there are 2 oil rings one with a spiral expander. The engine came to me with a few spare parts like head gasket which was beat up just like the one in the engine and 1 complete set of spare rings. Now interestingly enough the spare ring set has only 1 oil ring and 4 plain compression rings. And quality wise they don't look so great. Make's me wonder what is right?
Like I said my oil control is great but I know the engine is having blow by and lots of it. I do have the blow by routed to the intake which might be fatal if the blow by starts to carry oil back into the intake.† But for now those 2 oil rings are doing there job and keeping the oil in the case. This is the only Lister type motor I have experience with although I do own a 16/1 metro which will probably take the place of this motor some day. Is your Lister a 6/1 or other, I see you mentioned a Fr1?

Its a Lister 6/1 som generator and has a cast iron piston with 5 rings,one of those is a oil ring.
It runs at 650 rpm and I use 15/40 sump oil which I was changing at 500 hours.
I think you will know what's happening when you pull it apart.

The Lister FR1 is the next engine I've got lined up
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Tom on December 21, 2010, 07:26:46 PM
Having just cleaned the carbon lump off the injector tip on my engine again. I'm noticing that the temp goes much higher when this happens and that the blow by increases significantly too. Could it be that the carbonized oil under the piston crown, that some people have reported, is caused by this? Could that be feeding through the oil scraper holes on the pistons as it breaks off and wearing the cylinder walls? It is amazing how changing a parameter on an engine can cause a chain effect some times.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 21, 2010, 07:54:39 PM
Having just cleaned the carbon lump off the injector tip on my engine again. I'm noticing that the temp goes much higher when this happens and that the blow by increases significantly too. Could it be that the carbonized oil under the piston crown, that some people have reported, is caused by this? Could that be feeding through the oil scraper holes on the pistons as it breaks off and wearing the cylinder walls? It is amazing how changing a parameter on an engine can cause a chain effect some times.

Yes I have noticed the exhaust temp goes up the fuel gets used more quickly and the engine losses power and smokes more.
Once the carbon is cleaned off the injector all is good again.
Adding RUG to the WMO helps stop this happening.
The carbon under the piston is caused by the heat of the piston crown and is cleaned off at Listers 1000 hour decoke service.
I think this carbon is only going to cause problems to the bearings if it drops in to the oil holes.
All these problems I think are normal when using WMO but the real problem is if the rings and bore are going to keep wearing out in the 1800 hours of run time.
So far it seems no one has put the hours on there engine or is not running WMO or is only adding a small amount.
I can't be the only one
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 21, 2010, 10:11:02 PM
Spencer

I cannot remember but it seams someone popped into this forum and had a twin roid that said he had 17000 hours all on WMO on it and it was for sale. He said it was worn out and he had moved it outside where rain had stuck it. I have searched but I don't seam to find the post. does anyone here remember reading about it. The post wasn't to long ago and did generate some comment. I may have this site mixed up with the Micro chp site. It would be good to find this guy and see if the post of 17000 is right or if it was 1700 just cannot remember. Tried searching the other site but no luck.............

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 21, 2010, 10:28:31 PM
Spencer

I cannot remember but it seams someone popped into this forum and had a twin roid that said he had 17000 hours all on WMO on it and it was for sale. He said it was worn out and he had moved it outside where rain had stuck it. I have searched but I don't seam to find the post. does anyone here remember reading about it. The post wasn't to long ago and did generate some comment. I may have this site mixed up with the Micro chp site. It would be good to find this guy and see if the post of 17000 is right or if it was 1700 just cannot remember. Tried searching the other site but no luck.............

Billswan

Billswan,
Yes I remember reading that and thinking to my self I bet the liners and rings and probably other rings he had fitted had worn out because of the WMO  and he was probably only selling it because he knew that WMO does not work.
If this is the case and you are going to tell me the same when you pull yours apart then some one should post the results to help other people from making the same mistakes in going to the expense of setting up a Lister to run on WMO..

Spencer
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 21, 2010, 11:59:27 PM
Spencer

I cannot remember but it seams someone popped into this forum and had a twin roid that said he had 17000 hours all on WMO on it and it was for sale. He said it was worn out and he had moved it outside where rain had stuck it. I have searched but I don't seam to find the post. does anyone here remember reading about it. The post wasn't to long ago and did generate some comment. I may have this site mixed up with the Micro chp site. It would be good to find this guy and see if the post of 17000 is right or if it was 1700 just cannot remember. Tried searching the other site but no luck.............

Billswan

Billswan,
Yes I remember reading that and thinking to my self I bet the liners and rings and probably other rings he had fitted had worn out because of the WMO† and he was probably only selling it because he knew that WMO does not work.
If this is the case and you are going to tell me the same when you pull yours apart then some one should post the results to help other people from making the same mistakes in going to the expense of setting up a Lister to run on WMO..

Spencer

OK then if it is here I will look some more. If he will answer an email maybe we will learn something.

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Tijean on December 22, 2010, 12:29:51 AM
The other site; search    
12/2 Listeroid & 10kw with parts     Username    artp

claims 17K hours
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 22, 2010, 01:18:21 AM
I found it here http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=5566.0

On this site he had no replies.

Got to go check out the other site. thanks for finding it at the other site Tijean

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 22, 2010, 01:29:15 AM
Looks like he only got 1 reply  back on the other site so I will try to PM him and see if there is any response.

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 22, 2010, 01:42:30 AM
Ok sent a pm from this site with 3 questions.

We will see if he responds...............

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Tom on December 22, 2010, 01:48:48 AM
I don't know if I'd consider "only" 17k hours as a failure. At my rate of usage that is another 80 years.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 22, 2010, 12:05:48 PM
I don't know if I'd consider "only" 17k hours as a failure. At my rate of usage that is another 80 years.

I am not sure what your posts are trying to say apart from you don't use your engine and you are alright.
That's nice for you then, but what's the point posting that apart from making your self feel good.
The whole point of this thread is to find out if any one is using there generator every day as there main power supply and is running it on WMO as a sole fuel and if they have had problems with ring and bore wear.
The fact you only have put such a very tiny amount of hours on your engine and have not had problems is not proof its not being damaged .
 I did not have any problems until the engine clocked up hours so your posts don't count as proof that its a good source of free fuel.

The twin cylinder listeroid that was for sale that the seller was running on WMO may hold some interesting insight to every day use on such a fuel.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Oiler on December 22, 2010, 12:14:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8&feature=related

According to this guy, he canges oil every 2160 hours!!!!!!
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 22, 2010, 12:24:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8&feature=related

According to this guy, he canges oil every 2160 hours!!!!!!


I spoke to him some time ago he has not got that engine any more but has a  battery bank and a large inverter.
 He also has a newer generator for charging when the battery bank gets low which runs on diesel.
He was being a bit over enthusiastic at the time but the reality was some what different. ;)
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 22, 2010, 12:42:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8&feature=related

According to this guy, he canges oil every 2160 hours!!!!!!


I spoke to him some time ago he has not got that engine any more but has a† battery bank and a large inverter.
 He also has a newer generator for charging when the battery bank gets low which runs on diesel.
He was being a bit over enthusiastic at the time but the reality was some what different. ;)

So what happened,† he wore it out?

One other question you said your engine wore out because you think the ash is abrasive. How about the exhaust valve stem and guide? You would think they would also be well worn and need replacing.

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 22, 2010, 12:53:41 PM
One other though before I head out for the day. It seams the fuel in my day tank must separate and stratify. The day tank holds about 60 gallons and is above and beside the engine in a 60 degree room. Over the course of a couple days I pumped 70 gallons into it and for a few days I had lots of nozzle and chamber coking but now after nearing the bottom of the tank the last about 2 days the engine has not had the carbon knocks so I have to conclude that I must need some sort of stirring devise to keep the oil from separating either that or I am not getting a good mix to start with.

 Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 22, 2010, 12:59:40 PM
The top of the exhaust valve gets hot and dries out,this has happened several times.
When I mean the top I am talking about the part the rocker pushes on.
I wonder If the WMO burns much hotter as the exhaust side of the head is very dry.
The higher temps could also be part of the problem with the bore.
The engine on youtube was sold to his friend, he did not go in †to much detail but it was not a success.
The valve seats and valve faces on my engine did need cleaning up and grinding ,it had new valves and guides at the start of the 1800 hours and they were genuine Lister.
The guides felt sloppy when new and I did not notice much difference in them when I checked them.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 22, 2010, 01:06:22 PM
One other though before I head out for the day. It seams the fuel in my day tank must separate and stratify. The day tank holds about 60 gallons and is above and beside the engine in a 60 degree room. Over the course of a couple days I pumped 70 gallons into it and for a few days I had lots of nozzle and chamber coking but now after nearing the bottom of the tank the last about 2 days the engine has not had the carbon knocks so I have to conclude that I must need some sort of stirring devise to keep the oil from separating either that or I am not getting a good mix to start with.

 Billswan

That's why I only mix it as I need it and it gets used up every day and the next day I mix the next lot so it does not sit in a tank and possibly separate.
I mix in some petrol, diesel mixed fuel which I have collected from garages.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Tom on December 22, 2010, 06:08:22 PM
I don't know if I'd consider "only" 17k hours as a failure. At my rate of usage that is another 80 years.

I am not sure what your posts are trying to say apart from you don't use your engine and you are alright.
That's nice for you then, but what's the point posting that apart from making your self feel good.
The whole point of this thread is to find out if any one is using there generator every day as there main power supply and is running it on WMO as a sole fuel and if they have had problems with ring and bore wear.
The fact you only have put such a very tiny amount of hours on your engine and have not had problems is not proof its not being damaged .
 I did not have any problems until the engine clocked up hours so your posts don't count as proof that its a good source of free fuel.

The twin cylinder listeroid that was for sale that the seller was running on WMO may hold some interesting insight to every day use on such a fuel.

My engine has almost 1100 hours on it so I'm not too far behind you. The engine for sale had a claimed 17k on wmo. Yes wear is increased by burning WMO. My point is to determine how best to process WMO for motor fuel to minimize ware and what is the easiest engine to maintain and low cost to rebuild when running it. Your report of the cylinder wear is the first I've heard of localized around the exhaust valve, so my thoughts are that perhaps the issue is with the tolerances or chrome plating. And yes powering and heating my house without being connected to the grid and buying much in the way of fuel makes me very happy.  :-*
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 22, 2010, 06:48:28 PM
The bore wear is my main concern as replacing rings at regular intervals is not a problem.
The bore being chrome might have apart in the wear patten I have seen.
 I hope some one with a Lister or Listeroid  can post there results after they have use WMO and clocked up some reasonable hours.
My engine is still running and has about 2400 hours on it at the moment.
All I want is proof the bore is not going to keep wearing out.
When your engine gets to 1800 hour from my experience it will be worn out.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 23, 2010, 02:42:52 AM
Guys I sure wish I had a bore scope to inspect the cylinder with every time I clean the injector.

Today it was warm so my 10/1 got the day off it sat still for almost 12 hours before I had to restart it. And by the way it started I am afraid I will have to rig up a starter soon as with a hand crank it just is starting to get to be a bear to start. The compression is defiantly down and it took many turns to build up enough heat and fuel in the cylinder to bring it to life.

Sure wish my friend with his injector crack tester would show up. I would like to see where the injector is at compared to a new one. Before I start swapping in a new one.

If there is any one here that has experience with a bore scope please speak up. If there is heavy wear in a non chrome bore could you see it or not?
Or can you only see damage like scuffing. Subtle wear not noticeable?

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 23, 2010, 07:27:04 PM


You could make your own pop tester from a grease gun and a pressure gauge.
I have a pop tester and have tested my injector regularly and I have had to clean it a couple of times but the pressure has never changed between intervals.
I upped the pressure but this did not make any difference apart from more diesel knock
I also advanced the timing but that made no difference apart from making the engine run coarser.
Heated the injector and ran in high compression that made no difference ,but running in low compression did make  the engine running smoother but no difference to coking.
From my experience with WMO the engine will have ring and bore wear at about 1800 hours and if my engine was not electric start then I would have not  gotten to 1800 hours as it would have been imposable to have start  by hand as the hours increased.

     ;)
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 24, 2010, 12:50:30 AM


You could make your own pop tester from a grease gun and a pressure gauge.
I have a pop tester and have tested my injector regularly and I have had to clean it a couple of times but the pressure has never changed between intervals.
I upped the pressure but this did not make any difference apart from more diesel knock
I also advanced the timing but that made no difference apart from making the engine run coarser.
Heated the injector and ran in high compression that made no difference ,but running in low compression did make† the engine running smoother but no difference to coking.
From my experience with WMO the engine will have ring and bore wear at about 1800 hours and if my engine was not electric start then I would have not† gotten to 1800 hours as it would have been imposable to have start† by hand as the hours increased.

† † †;)

Well that just about covers what my plans are. I was hopping upping the crack pressure would help break up the oil better but looks like you find no improvement there.

I do have a grease gun gauge setup for setting hydraulic thermal relief and other hydraulic pop offs but I think rather than use it I will barrow my neighbors tester.

There is one other thing that I have read about that I was going to try and that is dual fuel with propane. Seams that really helps with carbon as the propane of course reduces the amount of oil used but also seams to change the way the burn in the cylinder takes place and helps consume more of the oil and hence† there is less carbon left behind. I know a second fuel will cost money but if the roid fails and I will still need to heat I will have to buy propane at the rate of about 15 to 18 gallons a day so if I could just use a gallon or 2 to supplement the oil maybe that way I could keep using WMO for the lions share of the load.

On the engine running smother at low compression I have sure noticed that, as in the last couple weeks the vibration caused by the ignition pulse is defiantly reduced and everything vibrates much less.

Billswan

Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: wagspe208 on December 24, 2010, 01:02:41 AM
Guys I sure wish I had a bore scope to inspect the cylinder with every time I clean the injector.

If there is any one here that has experience with a bore scope please speak up. If there is heavy wear in a non chrome bore could you see it or not?
Or can you only see damage like scuffing. Subtle wear not noticeable?

Billswan
I'd say yes if you are used to looking at cylinders. Bore scopes aren't like just looking at something. They take a little getting used to.

Why does using WMO increase cyl wear? That seems to be the opposite of what one would expect. I guess I'll have to read the whole tthread.
Wags
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 24, 2010, 01:45:17 AM
Guys I sure wish I had a bore scope to inspect the cylinder with every time I clean the injector.

If there is any one here that has experience with a bore scope please speak up. If there is heavy wear in a non chrome bore could you see it or not?
Or can you only see damage like scuffing. Subtle wear not noticeable?

Billswan
I'd say yes if you are used to looking at cylinders. Bore scopes aren't like just looking at something. They take a little getting used to.

Why does using WMO increase cyl wear? That seems to be the opposite of what one would expect. I guess I'll have to read the whole tthread.
Wags

Yes please read the whole thread. Would love to hear your point of view. I also would agree that WMO should not cause wear but that is not what I am experiencing. It seams that it accelerates wear dramatically. I am wondering if the additives in the oil are the problem. As they burn up they must make abrasive ash that is like pumice with the oil and forms grinding compound on the cylinder walls. I sure could be wrong and there is some other gremlin causing problems like real cheap parts that just have no hope of longevity.

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: wagspe208 on December 24, 2010, 04:36:32 AM
Bill, I read the thread. It seems as WMO is not causing problems with injectors/ pumps. So, this would lead us to believe the oil is not the problem per se'.
So, by product of combustion...well... I build a home made waste oil furnace. It does deposit burned ash inside after hours of run. I'd believe it is abrasive. Now, this furnace is not osha approved.  ;D I only use it when I am around. So, I probably clean it a little after 10 hours of run time. This is hugely frequent compared to a constant use application.

Parts... you are using listeorid parts? Do lister chrome cylinders also suffer the same problem?
As you said.. rings are pretty cheap. The cylinders need to live. How about getting a cylinder coated with Nikasil (sp?). Most dirt bikes/ atvs, etc use them. The Nikasil is hard as hell. Harder than chrome I believe. Pretty cheap to get a cylinder done now a days. 100 bucks or so. Cheap if it lasts long term.

How many hours are you getting on a set of rings? This should be a relatively easy problem to solve also.
Wags
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 24, 2010, 01:20:20 PM
Bill, I read the thread. It seems as WMO is not causing problems with injectors/ pumps. So, this would lead us to believe the oil is not the problem per se'.
So, by product of combustion...well... I build a home made waste oil furnace. It does deposit burned ash inside after hours of run. I'd believe it is abrasive. Now, this furnace is not osha approved.† ;D I only use it when I am around. So, I probably clean it a little after 10 hours of run time. This is hugely frequent compared to a constant use application.

Parts... you are using listeorid parts? Do lister chrome cylinders also suffer the same problem?
As you said.. rings are pretty cheap. The cylinders need to live. How about getting a cylinder coated with Nikasil (sp?). Most dirt bikes/ atvs, etc use them. The Nikasil is hard as hell. Harder than chrome I believe. Pretty cheap to get a cylinder done now a days. 100 bucks or so. Cheap if it lasts long term.

How many hours are you getting on a set of rings? This should be a relatively easy problem to solve also.
Wags



Hi,
If you read all of the thread you would have seen that the Lister chrome plated bore has worn through in less than 1800 hours and my engine is a genuine Lister.
Burning WMO in a waste oil burner or engine make no difference ,burnt oil makes ash and how long you burn the oil makes no difference it still makes ash.

So if you burn a small amount of oil you make a small amount of ash and so on.
If the ash is the problem and if a chrome bore is going to wear out then there is little point in trying to replace it with some thing harder as that's not sorting the problem out, that's trying to get around it but the ash is still going to be abrasive and will wear moving parts out.

Now if Bills engine has not got a chrome bore and he strips his engine and finds the bore has only worn slightly and evenly then that would indicate that a cast bore is better than a chrome bore which is more likely to wear through in one spot which makes it very hard for the rings to seal.
If the bore would last 4000 hours then the whole project has a future.
The rings last 1800 hours but will have worn and need replacing before that really.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 24, 2010, 01:25:28 PM
Parts... you are using listeorid parts? Do lister chrome cylinders also suffer the same problem?
As you said.. rings are pretty cheap. The cylinders need to live. How about getting a cylinder coated with Nikasil (sp?). Most dirt bikes/ atvs, etc use them. The Nikasil is hard as hell. Harder than chrome I believe. Pretty cheap to get a cylinder done now a days. 100 bucks or so. Cheap if it lasts long term.

How many hours are you getting on a set of rings? This should be a relatively easy problem to solve also.
Wags


Wagspe208

I am using listeroid parts that I believe are as close to the bottom shelf as can be. This is the first listeroid I have had experience with but compared to American made engines well ........................

Spencer1885 has real Lister parts with chrome bore and is and has had problems.

As far as this Nikasil stuff I have only read of the stuff or the† process no experience so please tell me more.

How is it applied?

Do you have to hone some room for it? How thick is the coating?

After it is there do you use the sleeve that way or do you hone a cross hatch into it. If so what type of and what coarseness stones are needed to hone it?
I have to wonder about the quality of my sleeve and then what about the replacement. If the sleeve that I am using is real soft bottom of the barrel quality, something to get the engine sold, and then the replacement would be high quality may be I could double the run time with just a replacement of the original parts.

I guess time and an eventual autopsy of the motor will tell some secrets.

So far my 10/1 is up to 1275 hours but as the weather goes cold again it will go back to 24 x 7 operation and that will rack up hours fast so will be to Spencer's 1800 hour line in the sand in about a month of cold weather and no other breakdowns. Personally I just might not get there as the compression is so low the engine is getting very hard to start with the hand crank. If I only could decided what type and way to put a starter on it and then find the time then that would help keep the engine alive for a while longer.


Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 24, 2010, 01:44:33 PM
Parts... you are using listeorid parts? Do lister chrome cylinders also suffer the same problem?
As you said.. rings are pretty cheap. The cylinders need to live. How about getting a cylinder coated with Nikasil (sp?). Most dirt bikes/ atvs, etc use them. The Nikasil is hard as hell. Harder than chrome I believe. Pretty cheap to get a cylinder done now a days. 100 bucks or so. Cheap if it lasts long term.

How many hours are you getting on a set of rings? This should be a relatively easy problem to solve also.
Wags


Wagspe208

I am using listeroid parts that I believe are as close to the bottom shelf as can be. This is the first listeroid I have had experience with but compared to American made engines well ........................

Spencer1885 has real Lister parts with chrome bore and is and has had problems.

As far as this Nikasil stuff I have only read of the stuff or the† process no experience so please tell me more.

How is it applied?

Do you have to hone some room for it? How thick is the coating?

After it is there do you use the sleeve that way or do you hone a cross hatch into it. If so what type of and what coarseness stones are needed to hone it?
I have to wonder about the quality of my sleeve and then what about the replacement. If the sleeve that I am using is real soft bottom of the barrel quality, something to get the engine sold, and then the replacement would be high quality may be I could double the run time with just a replacement of the original parts.

I guess time and an eventual autopsy of the motor will tell some secrets.

So far my 10/1 is up to 1275 hours but as the weather goes cold again it will go back to 24 x 7 operation and that will rack up hours fast so will be to Spencer's 1800 hour line in the sand in about a month of cold weather and no other breakdowns. Personally I just might not get there as the compression is so low the engine is getting very hard to start with the hand crank. If I only could decided what type and way to put a starter on it and then find the time then that would help keep the engine alive for a while longer.


Billswan


Bill why don't you get a Briggs & Stratton engine as some of those came with a reduction gearbox.
Weld a frame so you can pull up the Briggs engine with a rubber wheel fitted to the reduction gearbox, this can rub against the Listeroid flywheel to spin it up.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 24, 2010, 02:23:01 PM
Quote

Bill why don't you get a Briggs & Stratton engine as some of those came with a reduction gearbox.
Weld a frame so you can pull up the Briggs engine with a rubber wheel fitted to the reduction gearbox, this can rub against the Listeroid flywheel to spin it up.
Quote

Spencer

Well actually I do have a honda 5 or 6 hp with a gear box but my listeroid is in my large shop and I am not sure I want to have to smell that stink. To many cubic feet of air to air out and I am just to lazy to build an exhaust system for the small engine. I have lots of stuff that could be used just have to find the TIME............
 BY the way you said at 1800 hours you had to rebuild your motor where are you at now on hours on the engine or have you moved onto the other engine you mentioned? I read so much on this and other forums it is hard to keep it all straight............

Billswan

Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 24, 2010, 02:38:04 PM
Quote

Bill why don't you get a Briggs & Stratton engine as some of those came with a reduction gearbox.
Weld a frame so you can pull up the Briggs engine with a rubber wheel fitted to the reduction gearbox, this can rub against the Listeroid flywheel to spin it up.
Quote

Spencer

Well actually I do have a honda 5 or 6 hp with a gear box but my listeroid is in my large shop and I am not sure I want to have to smell that stink. To many cubic feet of air to air out and I am just to lazy to build an exhaust system for the small engine. I have lots of stuff that could be used just have to find the TIME............
 BY the way you said at 1800 hours you had to rebuild your motor where are you at now on hours on the engine or have you moved onto the other engine you mentioned? I read so much on this and other forums it is hard to keep it all straight............

Billswan



1800 hours when the head gasket blow so I removed the cylinder block and that's when I found the wear.
I put it back together with a new head gasket and fitted some old rings which were better than the worn out rings but not by much.
After Christmas I will set up the Lister FR1 and use that for the time being.
Not sure what's the problem with using the Honda engine to start the Listeroid as it will only be running for such a sort time the exhaust fumes will not be a problem.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Bottleveg on December 25, 2010, 10:48:02 AM
Iíve noticed this type of wear on a few CS engines that, as far as I know, have only been run on diesel. My conclusion on the cause has been faulty, broken or worn compression ring or lack of upper cylinder lubrication due to a blocked oil control ring and/or faulty engine breather. I believe the breather is designed to create a vacuum on the cylinderís upward stroke and therefore draw oil into the void that is created?
If this wear is accelerated by the use of wmo then here are some possibilities Iíve thought of:
As far as Iím aware, wmo does burn hotter than standard diesel. In wmo burners, the flame length is increased and will therefore eventually burn the back out of chambers that are not long enough to accommodate the burner. This could account for the lack of lubrication on the exhaust side of the bore (lubricating oil vaporising on contact)
Itís my belief that the white ash created from burning wmo comes from the non-oil content. Again, with wmo burners, the finer I filter the oil, the less ash I get.
Iíve found that the greatest percentage of non-oil is below 1 micron so, if the ash is causing the problem in engines, filtering to Ĺ micron should improve the situation. It would certainly reduce the build up on injector tips.
It is worth noting that filter efficiency varies considerably so any reasonable test should be done with a known type. Sock type filters have the lowest efficiency. Cartridge filters normally have a percentage rating, some are as low as 60%.
So a 1 micron filter that is rated at 60% is probably no better than a 90% 5 micron.
ĎAbsoluteí filters will give the best results but are obviously more costly.
Many filters manufactured in China seem to have ratings above their actual efficiency.
Anyway, Happy, whatever it is you celebrate in your household, to you all.  :)
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 25, 2010, 01:50:15 PM
Iíve noticed this type of wear on a few CS engines that, as far as I know, have only been run on diesel. My conclusion on the cause has been faulty, broken or worn compression ring or lack of upper cylinder lubrication due to a blocked oil control ring and/or faulty engine breather. I believe the breather is designed to create a vacuum on the cylinderís upward stroke and therefore draw oil into the void that is created?
If this wear is accelerated by the use of wmo then here are some possibilities Iíve thought of:
As far as Iím aware, wmo does burn hotter than standard diesel. In wmo burners, the flame length is increased and will therefore eventually burn the back out of chambers that are not long enough to accommodate the burner. This could account for the lack of lubrication on the exhaust side of the bore (lubricating oil vaporising on contact)
Itís my belief that the white ash created from burning wmo comes from the non-oil content. Again, with wmo burners, the finer I filter the oil, the less ash I get.
Iíve found that the greatest percentage of non-oil is below 1 micron so, if the ash is causing the problem in engines, filtering to Ĺ micron should improve the situation. It would certainly reduce the build up on injector tips.
It is worth noting that filter efficiency varies considerably so any reasonable test should be done with a known type. Sock type filters have the lowest efficiency. Cartridge filters normally have a percentage rating, some are as low as 60%.
So a 1 micron filter that is rated at 60% is probably no better than a 90% 5 micron.
ĎAbsoluteí filters will give the best results but are obviously more costly.
Many filters manufactured in China seem to have ratings above their actual efficiency.
Anyway, Happy, whatever it is you celebrate in your household, to you all.† :)


Bottleveg

Thanks for joining in! I doubt if I have broken rings. I have much experience in assembling engines but I cannot say I have never broken a ring so it could be possible.

The engine seemed like it did have crankcase vac until about 700 hours at that point It seemed to spring a leak all over so I suppose that is the point in time that the blow by got to the point the vacuum could no longer form.

Well we know the heaver the oil the more BTU's per gallon but I have only some experience with waste oil burners and I do admit dealing with all the ash is a full time job unless you own some very modern burners.

When you talk of non-oil content you mean contaminates like wear particles and carbon? Or are we talking of the additive package in new oil that prevent wear and holds trash in suspension and other things like that make oil multi grade?

I only run settled oil through 1 screen before a pump then a finer screen then an tractor diesel engine oil filter then through a diesel engine primary and the secondary filter into a barrel. Then so far the oil has sat for almost a year and then the same system is used to pump most of the barrel (leaving the bottom 2 inches) into a day tank except the very final filter is changed to a finer filter which is as best I can remember 6 microns. The coarser first† filter is 10 microns. So maybe I am not filtering fine enough comparing to your .5 micron example. But the injector pump and nozzle seem to survive, you would think debris† would cut up the injector pump in on time.

 I do realize that filters don't necessarily filter to a certain level on the first pass. Although† a final fuel filter sure don't get multiple cracks at filtering.

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Bottleveg on December 25, 2010, 04:10:46 PM
Hi Bill,
Iím not suggesting you have a broken ring; it was just an idea for possible cause of the cylinder groove Iíve seen.
I have no experience of the Indian engines but I guess they have a similar breather and cylinder lubrication system?
My thinking on the engine vacuum is that the top of the bore has the least lubrication, the exhaust valve side even less at times, so any breakdown of the breather would show itself here first.
Blow-by would start a downward spiral. Less vacuum, less lubrication, more ring wear and so on.
Yes, by non-oil I mean contaminants. Anything that wasnít in the oil from new.
I wouldnít expect wmo to cause any wear before combustion. So long as itís filtered and dry then it still remains a lubricant.
I believe the standard car fuel filter is around 7 micron. One would therefore think that anything below 7 micron would pass through the system. Iíve found this only to be true up to a certain level (not sure what level) and after that the pump pressures appear to separate the fuel into liquid and solid. It could be this Ďsolidí that is causing the wear, Iím not sure.
Lister types are built with more tolerance so we get away with more contamination.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 25, 2010, 06:22:55 PM
Hi Bill,
Iím not suggesting you have a broken ring; it was just an idea for possible cause of the cylinder groove Iíve seen.
I have no experience of the Indian engines but I guess they have a similar breather and cylinder lubrication system?
My thinking on the engine vacuum is that the top of the bore has the least lubrication, the exhaust valve side even less at times, so any breakdown of the breather would show itself here first.
Blow-by would start a downward spiral. Less vacuum, less lubrication, more ring wear and so on.
Yes, by non-oil I mean contaminants. Anything that wasnít in the oil from new.
I wouldnít expect wmo to cause any wear before combustion. So long as itís filtered and dry then it still remains a lubricant.
I believe the standard car fuel filter is around 7 micron. One would therefore think that anything below 7 micron would pass through the system. Iíve found this only to be true up to a certain level (not sure what level) and after that the pump pressures appear to separate the fuel into liquid and solid. It could be this Ďsolidí that is causing the wear, Iím not sure.
Lister types are built with more tolerance so we get away with more contamination.




I am not sure that its the contaminants in the WMO that could be causing the ring wear, as if the contaminants are that abrasive then the fuel injection system would have failed months before the rings and bore.
The ash which I am guessing is causing the wear is a by product of the combustion of WMO, so I can't see how filtering it more finely before use would make any difference .
The next step on from filtering is going to refining and that's not going to be viable at home on a small scale.
One other thing could be the additive package in the oil is causing the abrasive ash but once again you are not going to remove that or the carbon because it's all sub micron.
I am sure my genuine Lister CS is not doing any better than a Listeroid as abrasive fuel in any engine is going to have the same results.
No amount of crank case vacuum is going to get oil to the top ring,as it just the splash feed of oil that oils the cylinder.
Still no one with long hours of WMO use has replied to this thread which is a bit worrying.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: wagspe208 on December 25, 2010, 09:27:06 PM
It seems to me as everyone that has posted with any ideas are replied to in condescending tones by you.
So I am sure you will let all of us know what the problem is.
Or maybe folks just don't want to try and help you with your crappy attitude.
Wags


Bill... PM me and I will tell  you what little I know about Nakisil (sp)
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 25, 2010, 09:54:09 PM
It seems to me as everyone that has posted with any ideas are replied to in condescending tones by you.
So I am sure you will let all of us know what the problem is.
Or maybe folks just don't want to try and help you with your crappy attitude.
Wags


Bill... PM me and I will tell† you what little I know about Nakisil (sp)

Have you got any thing worth adding to the subject, or are you just full of sh*t.
All I trying to do is get to the bottom of what is causing the wear.
People have posted many times on this forum on the subject of WMO but there does not seem to be many people running a generator on it.
I don't want any more theories on the subject from you, I would just like some one with real life experience of a WMO fuelled generator to post.

Merry Christmas
 :)
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: wagspe208 on December 25, 2010, 10:03:22 PM
It seems to me as everyone that has posted with any ideas are replied to in condescending tones by you.
So I am sure you will let all of us know what the problem is.
Or maybe folks just don't want to try and help you with your crappy attitude.
Wags


Bill... PM me and I will tell† you what little I know about Nakisil (sp)

Have you got any thing worth adding to the subject, or are you just full of sh*t.
All I trying to do is get to the bottom of what is causing the wear. 
People have posted many times on this forum on the subject of WMO but there does not seem to be many people running a generator on it.
I don't want any more theories on the subject from you, I would just like some one with real life experience of a WMO fuelled generator to post.

Merry Christmas
 :)

Well, I was right about you.
You are not trying to get to the bottom of what is causing the wear as you are not open to any sugggestions. You want to be right and that is fine.
Maybe, just maybe, you have the most hours on a wmo application. Maybe you are going into unchartered ground. Maybe you can provide insight.
There are several solutions to your problem. You will not be open to any of them, though, because your mind is made up. Since you do not want my opinions or theories... ignore them. It is stull fun to piss you off.
Oh, and for your information.. I have more hours in R & D in engines in one week than you will have in a lifetime.
Good luck. I am sure many will be more than willing to jump in and help you. Especially with your open, willing attitude.
Steve Wagner
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 25, 2010, 10:13:52 PM
It seems to me as everyone that has posted with any ideas are replied to in condescending tones by you.
So I am sure you will let all of us know what the problem is.
Or maybe folks just don't want to try and help you with your crappy attitude.
Wags


Bill... PM me and I will tell† you what little I know about Nakisil (sp)

Have you got any thing worth adding to the subject, or are you just full of sh*t.
All I trying to do is get to the bottom of what is causing the wear.†
People have posted many times on this forum on the subject of WMO but there does not seem to be many people running a generator on it.
I don't want any more theories on the subject from you, I would just like some one with real life experience of a WMO fuelled generator to post.

Merry Christmas
 :)

Well, I was right about you.
You are not trying to get to the bottom of what is causing the wear as you are not open to any sugggestions. You want to be right and that is fine.
Maybe, just maybe, you have the most hours on a wmo application. Maybe you are going into unchartered ground. Maybe you can provide insight.
There are several solutions to your problem. You will not be open to any of them, though, because your mind is made up. Since you do not want my opinions or theories... ignore them. It is stull fun to piss you off.
Oh, and for your information.. I have more hours in R & D in engines in one week than you will have in a lifetime.
Good luck. I am sure many will be more than willing to jump in and help you. Especially with your open, willing attitude.
Steve Wagner

Your not pissing me off, but you would like me to think you have some solutions to my problem with bore wear but we both know your just a key board jockey with no real life experience but just lots of hot air.
You might not like me, but if peoples experiences on various subjects on this forum help other people with there projects then this subject is important to other people not just me.
 
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: wagspe208 on December 25, 2010, 11:10:16 PM
I don't know you, hence I do not like or dislike you.
I think you are an arrogant ass.... and a fool. I believe this.
You are hard ass conviced your problem is abrasive and unwilling to entertain any other options. Close minded thinking such as this will solve nothing. Maybe is it. Maybe it is not. There are other options.
You are right. I am a keyboard jockey. I know nothing about engines. You are a tool, though. I also know people.
Oh, BTW... race engines also experience bore wear, compression losses, ring issues, etc. I only built them for 20+ years. Please find someone on here with more hours of engine experience logged to solve your problems. I'm still having fun with you. I'd also like to help with your personality problems.
Wags
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Bottleveg on December 26, 2010, 01:43:11 AM
Spencer, One of my great interests in life is problem solving. It gives us all a great opportunity to enrich our lives and move forward.
I have been pondering your responses and low and behold Wags has come to the same conclusion.
Is this the real problem you are trying to solve?
I believe you have raised a very valid point for investigation and it deserves further discussion.
This is a great forum with a wealth of knowledge and you are the only person who has come forward with long-term experience of wmo use.
I would be grateful if you could post more of your findings and look forward to postings from our more knowledgeable members.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 26, 2010, 02:13:19 AM
Hi Bill,
Iím not suggesting you have a broken ring; it was just an idea for possible cause of the cylinder groove Iíve seen.
I have no experience of the Indian engines but I guess they have a similar breather and cylinder lubrication system?
My thinking on the engine vacuum is that the top of the bore has the least lubrication, the exhaust valve side even less at times, so any breakdown of the breather would show itself here first.
Blow-by would start a downward spiral. Less vacuum, less lubrication, more ring wear and so on.
Yes, by non-oil I mean contaminants. Anything that wasnít in the oil from new.
I wouldnít expect wmo to cause any wear before combustion. So long as itís filtered and dry then it still remains a lubricant.
I believe the standard car fuel filter is around 7 micron. One would therefore think that anything below 7 micron would pass through the system. Iíve found this only to be true up to a certain level (not sure what level) and after that the pump pressures appear to separate the fuel into liquid and solid. It could be this Ďsolidí that is causing the wear, Iím not sure.
Lister types are built with more tolerance so we get away with more contamination.


Bottleveg

Above you wrote about pressures appear to separate the fuel into liquid and solid. Could you please give me some help on that sentence as I am not seeing what you mean ???

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 26, 2010, 09:53:39 AM
I don't know you, hence I do not like or dislike you.
I think you are an arrogant ass.... and a fool. I believe this.
You are hard ass conviced your problem is abrasive and unwilling to entertain any other options. Close minded thinking such as this will solve nothing. Maybe is it. Maybe it is not. There are other options.
You are right. I am a keyboard jockey. I know nothing about engines. You are a tool, though. I also know people.
Oh, BTW... race engines also experience bore wear, compression losses, ring issues, etc. I only built them for 20+ years. Please find someone on here with more hours of engine experience logged to solve your problems. I'm still having fun with you. I'd also like to help with your personality problems.
Wags


I am not bothered what you think about me and I not interested in you, but you know nothing about the subject so take your attitude and f**k off.
You still have not added any thing useful to this thread.

 
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 26, 2010, 10:15:13 AM
Spencer, One of my great interests in life is problem solving. It gives us all a great opportunity to enrich our lives and move forward.
I have been pondering your responses and low and behold Wags has come to the same conclusion.
Is this the real problem you are trying to solve?
I believe you have raised a very valid point for investigation and it deserves further discussion.
This is a great forum with a wealth of knowledge and you are the only person who has come forward with long-term experience of wmo use.
I would be grateful if you could post more of your findings and look forward to postings from our more knowledgeable members.


Real life problem is what I am experiencing and I would like to solve it, but so far the boring subject of filtering and other all ready covered points keep being dragged up.
If you or any one thinks I am being arrogant then I am sorry about that ,but if people checked the forum they would see the subject of filtering and so on is already well covered .
As you also have no experience in the subject how is a question like( is this a real problem) of any help.
I have spent a lot of time on trying to solve this problem and I have come to a conclusion, but would like to hear from other people with experience of WMO use and any wear problems before I post it as being the absolute truth.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Bottleveg on December 26, 2010, 10:52:38 AM
Hi Bill,
Iím not suggesting you have a broken ring; it was just an idea for possible cause of the cylinder groove Iíve seen.
I have no experience of the Indian engines but I guess they have a similar breather and cylinder lubrication system?
My thinking on the engine vacuum is that the top of the bore has the least lubrication, the exhaust valve side even less at times, so any breakdown of the breather would show itself here first.
Blow-by would start a downward spiral. Less vacuum, less lubrication, more ring wear and so on.
Yes, by non-oil I mean contaminants. Anything that wasnít in the oil from new.
I wouldnít expect wmo to cause any wear before combustion. So long as itís filtered and dry then it still remains a lubricant.
I believe the standard car fuel filter is around 7 micron. One would therefore think that anything below 7 micron would pass through the system. Iíve found this only to be true up to a certain level (not sure what level) and after that the pump pressures appear to separate the fuel into liquid and solid. It could be this Ďsolidí that is causing the wear, Iím not sure.
Lister types are built with more tolerance so we get away with more contamination.


Bottleveg

Above you wrote about pressures appear to separate the fuel into liquid and solid. Could you please give me some help on that sentence as I am not seeing what you mean ???

Billswan

Hi Bill,
Iím referring to the Ďstalactiteí formation on injector tips. This suggests to me that the high pressure is separating the wmo. The oil has been vaporised and some of the contaminant has Ďdribbledí out to create this formation.
I have also read other posts about car injector pumps blocking after the use of Ďwell filteredí wmo. The posters describe how blockages have formed on the high-pressure side of the pump. The oil has gone but the contaminants are left to create the blockage.
This suggests to me that finer filtering would be beneficial and begs the question,  could wmo be cleaned using some type of pressure vessel?
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 26, 2010, 11:39:01 AM
I started this thread on WMO used as a fuel in a generator to get someone else's experiences of using it.
The reason being, which I did not mention at the the start, was my engine has suffered damage from using WMO.
I wanted to see if anyone else had also had problems with ring and bore wear before I mentioned it.
The thread has been high-jacked with the other well documented problems of WMO use,
For instance carbon forming on the injector tip is to do with the fact that WMO is vicsous and clings to surfaces - which is what lubricating oil is designed to do. These things have already been discussed and are pointless if the results I have seen indicate that WMO is not any good as a fuel in a diesel engine.
. ;)
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: bschwartz on December 26, 2010, 02:57:43 PM
Rbodell has the most experience of anyone I remember reading about.
Here is his website.  Maybe he could be a usefull source of information for you.
If I recall, he mixes his WMO 50/50 with diesel.

http://rbodell.com/listerpower.aspx
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 26, 2010, 03:29:12 PM
Rbodell has the most experience of anyone I remember reading about.
Here is his website.† Maybe he could be a usefull source of information for you.
If I recall, he mixes his WMO 50/50 with diesel.

http://rbodell.com/listerpower.aspx

Yes I thought of him but he seems to not be here much anymore. He also runs at low rpms quite the opposite of my engine which is thumping along at 1000 rpm +or-.

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: wagspe208 on December 26, 2010, 04:40:48 PM
Spencer...
Seems you think I have nothing to add. I'll tell you what. You post your engine building resume' and I'll post mine. I know who will win.

You say you used a salvaged cylinder or something like that. I wonder why it was tossed to the side. You are using used crap and have problems and are pissed off about it. You are condemning using wvo based upon your half assed methods. Great idea. I see the educational system over there is as good as the healthcare. Keep up the good work.

Again... maybe you are right. Maybe 100% wmo is a problem. But with your blinders on you will never see any other possibilities.

Oh, and you said I have addded nothing to the thread. Again, your opinion. You have missed a couple of points while being pissy.
Wags
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: wagspe208 on December 26, 2010, 04:55:01 PM
Spencer, One of my great interests in life is problem solving. It gives us all a great opportunity to enrich our lives and move forward.
I have been pondering your responses and low and behold Wags has come to the same conclusion.
Is this the real problem you are trying to solve?
I believe you have raised a very valid point for investigation and it deserves further discussion.
This is a great forum with a wealth of knowledge and you are the only person who has come forward with long-term experience of wmo use.
I would be grateful if you could post more of your findings and look forward to postings from our more knowledgeable members.


I have spent a lot of time on trying to solve this problem and I have come to a conclusion, but would like to hear from other people with experience of WMO use and any wear problems before I post it as being the absolute truth.

You only want to hear praise as being right. You are not open to other options as to what is causing the wear. So, hell... you are right. Now maybe others can find the truth.
Wags
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 26, 2010, 04:59:26 PM
Spencer...
Seems you think I have nothing to add. I'll tell you what. You post your engine building resume' and I'll post mine. I know who will win.

You say you used a salvaged cylinder or something like that. I wonder why it was tossed to the side. You are using used crap and have problems and are pissed off about it. You are condemning using wvo based upon your half assed methods. Great idea. I see the educational system over there is as good as the healthcare. Keep up the good work.

Again... maybe you are right. Maybe 100% wmo is a problem. But with your blinders on you will never see any other possibilities.

Oh, and you said I have addded nothing to the thread. Again, your opinion. You have missed a couple of points while being pissy.
Wags

New parts fitted at the start apart from the cylinder block.
You might think I don't know what I am doing but the cylinder block come from Peter forbes and he said it was good so perhaps you also think he does not know what he's taking about also.
You mentioned WVO, I did not so post some thing important or just leave me alone.

Spencer
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 26, 2010, 05:08:12 PM
I have also sent a email to the chap who had a Listeroid for sale with 17k hours of WMO use, but I have not had a email back at the moment.
I wonder if he will not reply as he thinks it may put people of buying his engine.
He can probably give us some very use full information on the subject.
 
Spencer
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 26, 2010, 05:22:58 PM
I have also sent a email to the chap who had a Listeroid for sale with 17k hours of WMO use, but I have not had a email back at the moment.
I wonder if he will not reply as he thinks it may put people of buying his engine.
He can probably give us some very use full information on the subject.

Spencer

Yes, I sent an email a few days ago and also no response. He might have sold it and so figures no point in answering.Thinking I might be a buyer.

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: wagspe208 on December 26, 2010, 05:23:58 PM
OK, spencer. I'm done. How about some real questions? Is that ok?
I may have mentioned WVO... that was a typo. Sorry about the confusion.
1) Wear... is the wear only at the top of the cyl. near the exhaust valve?
2) What did the valve seat and stem look like? Did they show signs of the same blasting?
3) Piston top near the exh valve? Did it also show the signs?
4) Were there scores in the cylinder? Where is is possible bigger chunks of the abrasive did damage?
Thanks
Wags

Sorry I did not go back and re read the entire thread if these have already been answered. To many pages.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 26, 2010, 05:50:08 PM
OK, spencer. I'm done. How about some real questions? Is that ok?
I may have mentioned WVO... that was a typo. Sorry about the confusion.
1) Wear... is the wear only at the top of the cyl. near the exhaust valve?
2) What did the valve seat and stem look like? Did they show signs of the same blasting?
3) Piston top near the exh valve? Did it also show the signs?
4) Were there scores in the cylinder? Where is is possible bigger chunks of the abrasive did damage?
Thanks
Wags

Sorry I did not go back and re read the entire thread if these have already been answered. To many pages.

1) No problem
2)I did not notice any real wear but the seats where a bit crappy, the decompresser being on the exhaust valve does not help.
3)The piston was new at the start and still looked in very good order with no signs of wear any where
4)There did not seem to be any wear in the bore  apart from the one place under the exhaust valve, the rest of the chrome bore looked good,but could well be out of round.
Thanks
Matthew
 
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 26, 2010, 06:08:32 PM
Hi Bill,
Iím not suggesting you have a broken ring; it was just an idea for possible cause of the cylinder groove Iíve seen.
I have no experience of the Indian engines but I guess they have a similar breather and cylinder lubrication system?
My thinking on the engine vacuum is that the top of the bore has the least lubrication, the exhaust valve side even less at times, so any breakdown of the breather would show itself here first.
Blow-by would start a downward spiral. Less vacuum, less lubrication, more ring wear and so on.
Yes, by non-oil I mean contaminants. Anything that wasnít in the oil from new.
I wouldnít expect wmo to cause any wear before combustion. So long as itís filtered and dry then it still remains a lubricant.
I believe the standard car fuel filter is around 7 micron. One would therefore think that anything below 7 micron would pass through the system. Iíve found this only to be true up to a certain level (not sure what level) and after that the pump pressures appear to separate the fuel into liquid and solid. It could be this Ďsolidí that is causing the wear, Iím not sure.
Lister types are built with more tolerance so we get away with more contamination.


Bottleveg

Above you wrote about pressures appear to separate the fuel into liquid and solid. Could you please give me some help on that sentence as I am not seeing what you mean ???

Billswan

Hi Bill,
Iím referring to the Ďstalactiteí formation on injector tips. This suggests to me that the high pressure is separating the wmo. The oil has been vaporised and some of the contaminant has Ďdribbledí out to create this formation.
I have also read other posts about car injector pumps blocking after the use of Ďwell filteredí wmo. The posters describe how blockages have formed on the high-pressure side of the pump. The oil has gone but the contaminants are left to create the blockage.
This suggests to me that finer filtering would be beneficial and begs the question,† could wmo be cleaned using some type of pressure vessel?


Bottleveg

Great answer, I was not aware that some users of WMO in car type engines had experienced blockages. It would be great if someone that had some of this material could scrap some out and have it analyzed to see what it is. I am not sure where a person would send it or what it would cost but if it could be done the analysis would sure tell a story.

The fellow that I bought my 16/1 †metro from, SAM Crosby said that the people that use WMO usually find an almost glass like deposit inside the combustion chamber or that is what I remember him relating. Makes one think that possibly just plain dirt that finds it way into the waste oil through air filters and down past rings that is so fine it is just not filter out able is melting during combustion and then forms glass or dirt like ash that is then heat hardened just like clay in a kiln.
Has anyone here that does use a waste oil burner ever clean out there furnaces and then burn say 5 gallons of new oil to see if the white ash is still there?
That would prove my question above. If the white ash is still there then it could not be dirt as new oil should have very little dirt in it.

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 26, 2010, 06:35:32 PM
Bill,
When I set up my Lister FR1 I will run it on hydraulic oil from a company just down the road if I can get enough of it.
I have had some from them before and it is real clean but for some reason it all ways has lots of water in it.
I will dry some out and run the engine on it and see if there is any white ash,
I did run the Lister CS on a drum of 205 litres of new 2 stroke oil and I don't remember there being less carbon or less white ash.
I also have a omni waste oil boiler, but it has a big oil tank so trying different oil is not an easy thing to do.
I am sure I read some where the white ash is the oil additives, so I am not sure if all oils have not got some additives of some sort,including hydraulic oil.
Maybe the oil companies make oil this way to stop people from using it as a diesel fuel ;)
 
Spencer
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: buickanddeere on December 26, 2010, 08:07:38 PM
  If your source of wmo is low ash oil from hydraulic systems, gas turbines and two stroke SF-2 detroit diesel motor oil. Deposits and problems will be minimal.
  Wmo loaded with super duper metalic and mineral anti-wear/anti-corrosion is going to leave unburned metal and minerals in the engine. Tiss the nature of the beast.The stuff doesn't burn at 1800F.
  You can use wonder filters down to 0.5 micron of suspended material but you are not touching the metal and mineral ions.
  Either find oil less troublesome or live with water injection to steam blast the engine clean.And reduced engine life from the anti-wear additives.   
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 26, 2010, 08:24:18 PM
† If your source of wmo is low ash oil from hydraulic systems, gas turbines and two stroke SF-2 detroit diesel motor oil. Deposits and problems will be minimal.
† Wmo loaded with super duper metalic and mineral anti-wear/anti-corrosion is going to leave unburned metal and minerals in the engine. Tiss the nature of the beast.The stuff doesn't burn at 1800F.
† You can use wonder filters down to 0.5 micron of suspended material but you are not touching the metal and mineral ions.
† Either find oil less troublesome or live with water injection to steam blast the engine clean.And reduced engine life from the anti-wear additives.† †

I just Googled low ash oil and one web site said that oil that leaks past piston rings then burns in the combustion camber and the additives produce ash.
So that sorts that one out then.
So if that's the case then only low ash oil which must be engineered that way or oils that have little or no additive in them are the only oils suitable for running in a diesel as fuel.
That only leaves hydraulic oil I guess.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on December 26, 2010, 08:54:39 PM
Just googled hydraulic oil and that's got additives in it as well, so that's not looking to good either.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: wagspe208 on December 26, 2010, 10:04:25 PM
My only question is why the centralized blast area. It seems as if there should be more signs of the abrasive. Like cyl scuffing, wear around the top ring, valve seat and stem, etc.
Now, at 1800 hours a cast iron seat will be beat up. For a long hour run such as this... I'd have hardened seats put in. Not just any "hard" seats, but something much harder. Valves are easier to replace than seats to machine. (for one not equipped with the tools) Propane compatable seats are the hardest, cheap, readily available. Other metals will transfer heat quicker, race world stuff, probably harder to find in the UK.
Back on point. Is it possible the blast area is a function of heat? WMO runs hotter than diesel (it should as it contains more btu's) So, I assume? this is the area where the injector spray points. Most concentrated heat area. Also, how is cooling right at the wear point? With the compression valve right at the same area... is that very spot getting hot enough to burn the chrome?
Is it a thermo siphon system, or pumped. Maybe... it is a function of heat.
It seems like the top of the piston should also be blasted if it was abrasive.
Other metals will take the heat more IF that is the issue.
Wags
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 27, 2010, 02:10:16 AM
† If your source of wmo is low ash oil from hydraulic systems, gas turbines and two stroke SF-2 detroit diesel motor oil. Deposits and problems will be minimal.
† Wmo loaded with super duper metalic and mineral anti-wear/anti-corrosion is going to leave unburned metal and minerals in the engine. Tiss the nature of the beast.The stuff doesn't burn at 1800F.
† You can use wonder filters down to 0.5 micron of suspended material but you are not touching the metal and mineral ions.
† Either find oil less troublesome or live with water injection to steam blast the engine clean.And reduced engine life from the anti-wear additives.† †

OK well just how much water per hour do you think a 10/1 listeroid would need to steam clean the cylinder?

.5 gallon an hour would be 12 gallons in 24 hours do you think that would be about right or not?

Of course what kind of water? Most water has minerals in it so are we talking distilled if so well that stuff ain't free.

At least the water on my farm even after the water softener has some iron in it and manganese sulfate. :(

billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: buickanddeere on December 27, 2010, 05:03:11 AM
  Water injection need not to be 24/7. A couple of minutes every hour is lots.

  Anybody familiar with two stroke detroit diesels will be familiar when some dork doesn't read or believe the operator's manual. And uses engine oil that isn't low residue/low ash SF-2. The engine binds and grinds up with un-burned additives. The exhaust ports plug up with deposits along with stuck rings and scored sleeves.
  Want to see a true low ash oil? Two stroke engine oil is as low ash as you will find anywhere. You always tell when somebody is mixing four stroke motor oil with gasoline and thinks all is ok. It's the same guy with the ruined two stroke motor that has starting problems and low power.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on December 27, 2010, 10:05:11 PM
† Water injection need not to be 24/7. A couple of minutes every hour is lots.

† Anybody familiar with two stroke detroit diesels will be familiar when some dork doesn't read or believe the operator's manual. And uses engine oil that isn't low residue/low ash SF-2. The engine binds and grinds up with un-burned additives. The exhaust ports plug up with deposits along with stuck rings and scored sleeves.
† Want to see a true low ash oil? Two stroke engine oil is as low ash as you will find anywhere. You always tell when somebody is mixing four stroke motor oil with gasoline and thinks all is ok. It's the same guy with the ruined two stroke motor that has starting problems and low power.

So that's what is wrong with that old detroit I got. I never new that and that old i believe 692 used oil and leaks oil and here it is just the 15-40 tractor oil† I been putting in the poor old critter.Boy what you don't learn trying to get a roid to run.........

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Bottleveg on December 28, 2010, 02:15:18 AM
How about going at this from another angle. Build a vacuum still and power the electrics with the Lister. The resulting fuel from wmo should be clear of anything that wonít vaporise. The first Ďtakeí from the still will provide fuel for the Lister and maybe auto fuel. The second Ďtakeí could provide sump oil. The remaining residue could be taken for recycling or mixed with sawdust and burnt for heat.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: bschwartz on December 28, 2010, 03:20:19 AM
I see 'BOOM' in your future.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: thefinis on December 28, 2010, 01:35:06 PM
Well dang it was planning on getting a lister genset and running it on wmo. Now it seems like problems will have to be overcome to do that.

Filtering should help reduce the amount of ash but does not appear to be able to fix the problem. A water mister might be helpful especially in dry climates. It seems that the cylinders are being reported as fairly clean when run on wmo so the water would be more to lower the exhaust temps at the exhaust valve and smooth out the knocks than to clean out the carbon. Might be helpful if it is too hot at the exhaust and that is what is causing the wear on the sleeve there.

IF you have a sufficient supply then cracking the oil is a very viable option. You can use the wmo as the fuel for the burner to run the unit. It would get rid of several problems if done correctly and provide a cleaner fuel to work with. To simplify things it should be done as a batch distill rather than a constant feed. You will need to have an adjustable thermostat for burner control. Sorry but I do not have the temperature list handy for the settings needed. I could find it but have to go to work now. I think it would work this way. First you† distill off the water at 212 f or slightly higher (adjusted for elevation) this would work better if you had no water to deal with so you could collect the light distillates like Bottleveg suggested. Then turn up the heat to the temp needed for vaporizing motor oil. It should make a clean oil free of most additives and contaminates that could be burned in a lister. Cool empty the sludge and start again. Anyone that can distill alcohol should be able to crack oil.

You can vacuum distill but that seems a bigger project than heat distilling.

Got to go to work

Finis
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Bottleveg on December 28, 2010, 06:36:20 PM
I got the idea some time back from this thread but was unable to gain more information.
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=3413.0
An electrically heated unit would be more controllable and a vacuum still would be more practical to use due to the lower heat needed, also probably safer.
One of the things I canít work out is the size and type of vacuum pump needed.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Tom on December 28, 2010, 11:29:12 PM
Checked out rbodell's site and as of last post he only had 534 hours on his engine. But that was back in 2008. Some good pics of an ashed up precup on the bottom of the 2nd page.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: wagspe208 on December 29, 2010, 02:53:29 AM
Well, it needs to be determined whether it is abrasive blasting or heat erosion.
Simple, huh?
The next questions is.. how to do that.
Different cyl material? One that takes the heat.  This could rule out heat erosion. (sleeve material meaning something other than chrome)
Wags
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: millman56 on December 29, 2010, 11:18:39 PM
Just my twopennorth,  my primary plant genset a Perkins 4-270 driving a 37 Kva alternator is fuelled using engine/hyd/trans/gear oils blended with 5% to 20% kerosene depending on the viscosity of the incoming oil,  the blend is centrifuged using a commercial clarifying centrifuge prior to use.

In September I removed the rad in order to repair the fan pulley and as the exhaust had been blowing the rad had a slight build up of crap in the fins, the rad was placed on some limestone based concrete and the crap was flushed out, anyway to cut it short the next morning looking at the crap on the concrete where I cleaned the rad I noticed  that it had formed a froth and was bubbling,  this would suggest that some kind of acid is being produced, sulphuric would be my guess due to the relatively high sulphur content of lube oil.

The accelerated wear on the compression rings and the upper cylinder area could be due, in conjunction with abrasive ash and higher than design combustion temps, to acid erosion,  if you think about it the ingredients/conditions are all there for the production of superheated acid but not having formal chemical training its just a guess.

In my opinion, formed by a wealth of incompetence, using lube oil at high concentrations wrecks engines but with the price of gas oil ever rising there is no comparison  between a few hundred pounds for a s/h engine plus a couple of days rigging it and thousands of pounds worth of gas oil.      Mark,



Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: buickanddeere on December 30, 2010, 12:36:06 AM
Well dang it was planning on getting a lister genset and running it on wmo. Now it seems like problems will have to be overcome to do that.

Filtering should help reduce the amount of ash but does not appear to be able to fix the problem. A water mister might be helpful especially in dry climates. It seems that the cylinders are being reported as fairly clean when run on wmo so the water would be more to lower the exhaust temps at the exhaust valve and smooth out the knocks than to clean out the carbon. Might be helpful if it is too hot at the exhaust and that is what is causing the wear on the sleeve there.

Finis

  I was thinking something similar burning wmo in a Peteroid to offset electrical costs with our "Time of Use" electrical meter. And to use the waste heat to warm the swimming pool.
  As somebody else previously pointed out. A mechanical/particulate filter has no more effect on dissolved materials in solution with a chemical/ion bond. Than using a 2 micron filter to try and remove salt from water.
   Run the engine hot under full load. Use water injection and be glad Lister/Petter rings/sleeves/pistons are cheap.

  b&d
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on January 03, 2011, 09:23:54 PM
My Lister SOM made it past Christmas and is still going.
The oil in the sump is still needing topping up every day but the engine is still running about the same.
It has over 2560 hours on it but it does sound noisy from the top end.
Average electric bill would be about £400 per year so if I have to spend £200 on parts I still saved some money if I can get a year out of it.
I want to get on and set up the Lister FR1 generator but it's been to cold to do any work out side.
At least the FR1 has liners so that will make it easier to sort out when the WMO kills it.  ;D
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Rom on January 05, 2011, 06:44:02 PM
Just a thought, but what if you got a Indian cylinder block with liner? That way it would be much cheaper to repair the cylinder when it wore beyond its limits.

Rom
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Bottleveg on January 05, 2011, 07:17:06 PM
Just a thought, but what if you got a Indian cylinder block with liner? That way it would be much cheaper to repair the cylinder when it wore beyond its limits.

Rom

Or have an old Dursley cylinder bored out and fit a captive liner.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on January 05, 2011, 07:40:39 PM
Just a thought, but what if you got a Indian cylinder block with liner? That way it would be much cheaper to repair the cylinder when it wore beyond its limits.

Rom

I like that idea a lot, but I am not sure a Listeroid Wet liner block will fit as I think the Listeroid block has less head bolts than an original Lister CS
Spencer
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Rom on January 05, 2011, 07:47:38 PM
Yea, I guess it would be missing that 5th bolt that goes up into the head, so I guess it would be more expensive having to buy the head aswell.

http://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Cylinder.html

They have the cylinder blocks made for an orginal Dursley, but they dont have liners.

Rom
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on January 05, 2011, 07:51:11 PM
Just a thought, but what if you got a Indian cylinder block with liner? That way it would be much cheaper to repair the cylinder when it wore beyond its limits.

Rom

Or have an old Dursley cylinder bored out and fit a captive liner.

I was quoted £200 to have my block lined. †:(

I thought that was a bit pricey to have done every 2000 hours of engine run time.

But when I start using the Lister FR I will soon see if the bore wear is normal with WMO or it was just a Lister CS problem.
I will still be expecting the rings to wear out at least. ;D

Spencer
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on January 05, 2011, 07:59:14 PM
Yea, I guess it would be missing that 5th bolt that goes up into the head, so I guess it would be more expensive having to buy the head aswell.

http://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Cylinder.html

They have the cylinder blocks made for an orginal Dursley, but they dont have liners.

Rom

Cheers for that but I don't get on with that company as they tried to rip me off . >:(

I can get that same block from some one else for less money if I want to go down that line.

Cheers
Spencer
 :)
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Bottleveg on January 05, 2011, 08:05:36 PM
Just a thought, but what if you got a Indian cylinder block with liner? That way it would be much cheaper to repair the cylinder when it wore beyond its limits.

Rom

Or have an old Dursley cylinder bored out and fit a captive liner.

I was quoted £200 to have my block lined. †:(

I thought that was a bit pricey to have done every 2000 hours of engine run time.

But when I start using the Lister FR I will soon see if the bore wear is normal with WMO or it was just a Lister CS problem.
I will still be expecting the rings to wear out at least. ;D

Spencer

I meant have a captive sleeve fitted, keep some spare sleeves and change them as needed.
It will be interesting to see what results you have from the FR1.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on January 05, 2011, 08:14:56 PM
Just a thought, but what if you got a Indian cylinder block with liner? That way it would be much cheaper to repair the cylinder when it wore beyond its limits.

Rom

Or have an old Dursley cylinder bored out and fit a captive liner.

I was quoted £200 to have my block lined. †:(

I thought that was a bit pricey to have done every 2000 hours of engine run time.

But when I start using the Lister FR I will soon see if the bore wear is normal with WMO or it was just a Lister CS problem.
I will still be expecting the rings to wear out at least. ;D

Spencer

I meant have a captive sleeve fitted, keep some spare sleeves and change them as needed.
It will be interesting to see what results you have from the FR1.


I have tried to get a liner that's finished to size so as you say, then I can pull the old liner and fit the replacement, but I can not find any one who can supply such a liner.
The only liners I can find have to be fitted to the block and then machined to size.

Spencer   
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Bottleveg on January 05, 2011, 08:25:04 PM
Just a thought, but what if you got a Indian cylinder block with liner? That way it would be much cheaper to repair the cylinder when it wore beyond its limits.

Rom

Or have an old Dursley cylinder bored out and fit a captive liner.

I was quoted £200 to have my block lined. †:(

I thought that was a bit pricey to have done every 2000 hours of engine run time.

But when I start using the Lister FR I will soon see if the bore wear is normal with WMO or it was just a Lister CS problem.
I will still be expecting the rings to wear out at least. ;D

Spencer

I meant have a captive sleeve fitted, keep some spare sleeves and change them as needed.
It will be interesting to see what results you have from the FR1.


I have tried to get a liner that's finished to size so as you say, then I can pull the old liner and fit the replacement, but I can not find any one who can supply such a liner.
The only liners I can find have to be fitted to the block and then machined to size.

Spencer† †

Iím not sure where I read it but, Quote- ďIt used to be common practise and a Bedford liner was usedĒ. I have an old style engine shop close to me, Iíll put the idea to them when I next call in.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on January 05, 2011, 08:35:26 PM
Bottleveg

That would be excellent  :)


Spencer
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on January 10, 2011, 12:51:03 AM
Well my 10/1 is still thumping along. It is hard starting but I have an electric motor set up to crank it with if need be.

When I clean the injector and the precup if I pour about an ounce of oil into the cylinder it starts with the hand crank just like it used to.

Seems there is no rhyme or reason to burning waste oil seems when I look down the empty injector hole you just never know what you will see. Sometimes there is white ash and sometimes it is just black carbon. Sometimes heavy sometimes light deposits.

Have tried running some LP with the oil and at about 1/2 pound per hour I didn't see much improvement in carbon reduction.

Today I drilled out the jet so the rate is up slightly over a full pound per hour and at that rate my guess is it will help. But that is about 5.5 gallons per 24 hours and that would cost a significant chunk of money. I will check the precup in a few hours and see what it looks like.

The engine is going to hit 1600 hours sometime tonight and I believe 2000 is in reach as it doesn't seem to be getting much worse compression wise. Although the oil leaks are annoying. I am going to take a crack at sealing up a few now that I got my gib key puller back from a friend. The governor housing cover has a couple nasty leaks that need resealing.

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on January 10, 2011, 05:19:59 PM
Well my 10/1 is still thumping along. It is hard starting but I have an electric motor set up to crank it with if need be.

When I clean the injector and the precup if I pour about an ounce of oil into the cylinder it starts with the hand crank just like it used to.

Seems there is no rhyme or reason to burning waste oil seems when I look down the empty injector hole you just never know what you will see. Sometimes there is white ash and sometimes it is just black carbon. Sometimes heavy sometimes light deposits.

Have tried running some LP with the oil and at about 1/2 pound per hour I didn't see much improvement in carbon reduction.

Today I drilled out the jet so the rate is up slightly over a full pound per hour and at that rate my guess is it will help. But that is about 5.5 gallons per 24 hours and that would cost a significant chunk of money. I will check the precup in a few hours and see what it looks like.

The engine is going to hit 1600 hours sometime tonight and I believe 2000 is in reach as it doesn't seem to be getting much worse compression wise. Although the oil leaks are annoying. I am going to take a crack at sealing up a few now that I got my gib key puller back from a friend. The governor housing cover has a couple nasty leaks that need resealing.

Billswan

Billswan
I am not sure I understand how making the injector hole larger is going to help and what it will improve ?
I am guessing you are thinking it might help to stop carbon forming on injector tip, if so I think loading the engine helps because the injector is spraying more fuel to hold the load and this larger volume helps to blast the injector clean.
That's just my theory any way.
Since I have increased the rug contain the injector tip is staying pretty clean.
Your spot on how variable burning WMO is, as in the Lister the deposits go between black and white, where as in the waste oil burner it is white unless there's a problem, so may be the Lister is not burning the WMO very well ?
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on January 10, 2011, 06:35:38 PM
Spencer

I am guilty of a poor ability to get my thoughts across. When I mentioned drilling out the jet I meant the jet I am using to meter in some propane. It looks like if enough propane is run along with the oil it does help keep the precup and nozzle cleaner but the cost of the propane looks to be substantial. And of course the safety controls to protect the engine I do not have so I need to be near by.

One question It seems that for the first 700 hours +or- the 10/1 seemed to tolerate the wmo much better than now. I am sure it is the loss in compression that is the main problem. When I reassembled it I used no gaskets under the cylinder block so as to get maximum compression. The piston run very close to the head and if I were to use the normal valve clearances listed for a 10/1 .008 inch I believe piston valve interference would have been possible. I run wider valve clearances like those of a 6/1 the extra .010 makes for some margin of safety. Now for the question did you have better luck running WMO when your engine had fewer hours and better compression? Do you have the decompression change over valve on your Lister and do you use it. Of course my 10/1 has no valve just a plug in that spot.

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on January 10, 2011, 07:12:23 PM
Billswan

I had a compression valve but fitted a Indian plug in its place as I could unscrew it and clean the injector tip and blow out the carbon.

I then refitted the change over valve.
I started running in low compression as it did not seam to make any difference to burning WMO but the engine sounded nicer in low compression.
I now can remove the valve for daily cleaning as I have drilled the centre and can pull it out with a bolt and pry bar.
When I pull it apart again I am going to fit the Lister metal shims under barrel and get as must clearance between the piston and head as I can so when bits of carbon brake off it won't sound like it going to smash.
Then I will fit a Lister 8/1 plug to get the compression back up.
The Indian plug is made differently to the Lister 8/1 plug as it is made to set the compression half way where as the Lister 8/1 plug is made for the compression to be set with the bump clearance.
I am finding its burning better now than before but the oil supply does change a bit as some of the oil I think has already had some petrol dumped in it.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: rbodell on February 03, 2011, 02:29:30 AM
Does not seem to be many posts in general but there is no posting in waste motor oils.
Am I the only person using it to generate electric ever day?
People say they are using it and then they go very quiet.
A lot people talk about generating there own power but 2 years on they are still talking about it.
If your using wmo as a main fuel every day in a generator lets hear about it. 
Cheers
Matthew

I bought my Listeroid with the intention of testing the WMO theory because there was not much on the internet about it. I did track down several people who have been running 75% or more WMO in diesel engines for over 25 years. I was prepared to rebuild the engine if it did hurt it, but so far, it hasn't even gotten broken in yet.

I have been running 100% WMO for several years. Well over 2,000 hours. the engine runs cleaner and with more power on WMO than on diesel fuel. I can turn an automobile alternator at 30 amps at 300 rpm on the engine before it starts to smoke. On WMO, I can run it up to 35 amps before it starts to smoke. Under normal full load it has only a slight bit of smoke visible on diesel. Absolutely no smoke on WMO.

As for that hilarious post about WMO damaging an engine, I suppose it would if you did not filter it or bring the PH down to neutral. That would ruin any engine. I find it pretty odd that anybody could be that ill informed about engines that they would do that though. I would classify that with the rest of the "INTERNET RUMORS".

I use a basic biodiesel processor to process the WMO with a Dieselcraft centrifuge filter that brings it down to 2 microns. I now have 2000+ hours on the original goldenrod 10 micron fuel filter. My fuel does not have a pump, it is gravity feed so if there was any obstruction, my engine would not run. I have no plans to change it till it starts to affect the running of the engine just to test it out.

 
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on February 03, 2011, 04:50:49 AM
Rbodell

Glad to see you back here. I did read what you wrote on adjusting the ph but I never tried it. I did wear out a 10/1 cylinder assembly in 1775 hours. It would have went farther but the camshaft broke and with all the wear in the cylinder I just set it aside. I felt the quality of the parts were quite poor and blamed some of the wear on that.

I now am running a 16/1 on wmo it is direct injected and it is a MUCH better engine quality wise with no sand or machine grit to clean out unlike the 10/1 I started with. Time will tell and I am considering doing what you did to adjust the ph.

Billswan
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: DRDEATH on February 03, 2011, 05:40:57 AM
Sir glad to have you here. If you have taken time to read you will see it has been quite a topic. I hope you will offer some more insight into this. I have invested quite a bit of time in getting a container of real Lister's shipped to the US with a VA SOM, CE and several CD engines. I am reluctant now using WMO in the VA since it is the same as brandnew. I plan to use WMO in the CE and CD engines but I do have a few spare parts if needed. Glad again you are here. Mike DD 
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on February 03, 2011, 12:27:37 PM
Don't forget to check out this video.
Just some thing to think about when the snake oil sales man appears  telling you differently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbjQAA8F5rM

Cheers
Spencer
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on February 03, 2011, 12:30:07 PM
 was just surfing the net for oil vaporising and came across this on a forum,I thought it might be of some interest.
Lots of forums with the topic of wmo, not any good reports so far.


09-17-2009, 10:23 PM
This story is in several threads already so I will try to shorten it. Dole, the Fruit Company tried mixing and burning waste Oil in their Diesel Generator Sets that run the Refer Units on Refrigerated Containers.

A white crusty residue started to plug up the Injectors on their Engines and the expense of repair got above the savings in burning the Waste Motor Oil.

Motor Oil has additives and such that are supposed to inhibit burning and are not in of themselve fuel; they can not be filtered out.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: DRDEATH on February 03, 2011, 03:37:49 PM
Spencer I believe you have been told to play nice. You are the one who challenged someone with experience to come forward. It seems someone has. So let him talk. DD
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: DRDEATH on February 03, 2011, 04:15:26 PM
It seems that Mr RBodell has has positive experience using WMO so there must be a solution. BTW snake oil salesman are trying to sell something. I failed to see on any of his post of him trying to sell anything. All of his information was for free. DD
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: AdeV on February 03, 2011, 04:27:29 PM
Gents,

We're getting complaints again about this thread....

Could we please keep the language civil, and be absolutely clear about what is FACT and what is SPECULATION/OPINION.

Remember, we're all supposedly adults here. Name-calling should be left on the primary (elementary) school playground, where it belongs.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: DRDEATH on February 03, 2011, 05:43:08 PM
Well I have to say I have a personal gain for this post. My only regret is I did not contact the person who was trying to sell his Lister with 17,000 hours on it using WMO. I have serious that he exaggerated the amount of hours since he was trying to sell it. I also have problems he would have lied about using WMO oil if it was bad for the engine.
I have about 300 gallons stored up with the intentions of saving money for fuel.  So I would say you are right keep the discussion at an adult level, even though i have been told I need to act my age. LOL
I am tired of hearing that WMO is bad when there is almost no prof. It takes numerous trials or experiments to prove or disprove facts.
So if my remarks have not been positive I apologize and I will go forward. Mike DD
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: DRDEATH on February 03, 2011, 05:54:50 PM
If facts or even opinions are presented we are all old enough to form or own opinions. We do not need to keep hearing the same thing positive or negative towards thie post. Just my opinion. DD
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on February 03, 2011, 05:58:56 PM
Burn WVO instead of WMO! It will produce a lot less ash.
Will, the tink

--- In altfuelfurnace@yahoogroups.com, "alexhvac_r" <alexhvac_r@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
> I run used motor oil home heating boiler. Modified AFG Becket burner with
siphon nozzle setup. The boiler is not of ideal design for waste oil (single
path fire tubes with baffles inside). Need to sweep the boiler each week due to
white powdery ash coating fire tubes or else stack temperature getting to
dangerous levels because of poor heat exchange. Wondering if anything can be
done to extend the time between service.
>
> "alexhvac_r"
>
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on February 03, 2011, 06:13:07 PM
This an indication to how abrasive WMO ash is ,as vacuum cleaners which are designed to suck dust and last years, only last a few months


-- In altfuelfurnace@yahoogroups.com, Ed Heimbach <supermechanic18360@...>
wrote:
>
> Purchase A filter bag for your cleaner, then the dirt stays in the bag.
> ¬ I get about 250 clean outs to a shop vac, before the motor bearings give
out.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: AdeV on February 03, 2011, 06:30:02 PM
This an indication to how abrasive WMO ash is ,as vacuum cleaners which are designed to suck dust and last years, only last a few months

Have you tried gluing some to some paper & seeing how effective it is as a sandpaper?
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on February 03, 2011, 06:36:08 PM
This an indication to how abrasive WMO ash is ,as vacuum cleaners which are designed to suck dust and last years, only last a few months

Have you tried gluing some to some paper & seeing how effective it is as a sandpaper?
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 ;)

Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: mobile_bob on February 03, 2011, 08:30:07 PM
spencer, you just can't seem to help  yourself,  perhaps it is your attempt
to entertain, i don't know.

most of us don't really appreciate the following

1. restating over and over again your position, with nothing more than your
observations, and little more

2. reposting of the same youtube clip, with the same content

3. posting the same crap all over the forum

4. your use of smileys to counter what you don't either like or want to answer.

5. you inability to answer direct questions, or read others comments without some
sort of reasonable response.

EVERYONE HERE KNOWS YOUR POSITION, EVERYONE KNOWS THAT WMO IS NOT THE PREFERRED FUEL FOR A DIESEL ENGINE (ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL) WHICH ALL THINGS ARE NOT EQUAL. WE HAVE ALL SEEN YOUR YOUTUBE CLIP, AND HAVE ALL READ MOST IF NOT ALL OF YOUR VARIOUS POSTS ALL OVER THIS FORUM.

so give it a rest dude!

when Ade asked if you have glued any of the residue to paper to test its abrasive
quality, surely you understand what he means?  i know you are intelligent enough to grasp the concept of what he is suggesting?  he is asking you in a gentle way if you have done anything to test the abrasive quality of the residue.  it might well be abrasive and wear out things like white metal clad brgs and cylinders of plain cast iron, but it might not be sufficiently hard to effectively wear an induction cylinder.

you have provided some questions, but have not provided any answers, at all!

its either time for you to rethink your position and refocus on qualifying and quantifying the problem, or work toward solutions to the problem, rather than
waste any more of our time regurgitating the same old tired crap.

either that or just go away and move on with your life.

bob g
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on February 03, 2011, 09:15:45 PM
Ball bearings not hardened then, chrome bores not hard .
You have not used WMO long term ,you have not done any testing on any of the aspects of wmo or it's use ,but you are an expert on the subject.
Either you provide some factual answers or just go away and move on with your life
This is a forum for every one not just for people that agree with you.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Veggiefuel on February 03, 2011, 09:19:37 PM
Don't forget to check out this video.
Just some thing to think about when the snake oil sales man appears  telling you differently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbjQAA8F5rM

Cheers
Spencer

Hi Spencer,

please clarify.

This is a YES or NO question...

Q: Because you found potentially damaging ash in your system after running WMO, does that mean that EVERYONE will have the same  results ?

thanks kindly,
veggie
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: AdeV on February 03, 2011, 10:01:57 PM
Either you provide some factual answers or just go away and move on with your life

I can't give you answers, because I've not run WMO. I'd like to at some point, probably, so answers would interest me as well.

Problem is, you're in about the best position to TEST things & give answers, but - for whatever reason - you don't want to. I can understand, if your lister is your sole source of power, why you might not wish to test it.

Anyway.... you claim this stuff is abrasive. That means the particles are very hard. So glued to some paper or cloth they should be able to scratch up a piece of steel in no time. If they're not so abrasive, maybe the steel will break the particles down & they'll just turn to dust.


By the way: Please don't get the wrong end of the stick here - nothing I've written above is saying that WMO ash isn't a problem. It certainly appears to have been a big problem in your case. But then, rbodell has run 1000s of hours with no reported ash problem! So... what's difference. Why's he OK & not you? Are you not the least bit curious as to why that might be?
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: spencer1885 on February 03, 2011, 10:05:05 PM
Don't forget to check out this video.
Just some thing to think about when the snake oil sales man appears  telling you differently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbjQAA8F5rM

Cheers
Spencer

Hi Spencer,

please clarify.

This is a YES or NO question...

Q: Because you found potentially damaging ash in your system after running WMO, does that mean that EVERYONE will have the same  results ?

thanks kindly,
veggie



Yes
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: t19 on February 03, 2011, 10:22:05 PM
In the many years I have moderated here, I have never had so many complaints (even Viagra posters get less) and worked so hard on one user ... so please dont post to him, Sencer1885 will not be answering you here again.

Banned for poor Citizenship
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Tijean on February 03, 2011, 10:29:03 PM
Just a few observations on the way this subject has played out. The mechanical and chemical aspects of it should have made it an interesting problem but the presentation has made it seem like force feeding; there is the very palpable sense that rejection is not a possible choice. It is also very clear that anyone who disagrees is subject to various forms of ridicule either direct or implied or an attempt is made to hang a guilt trip on them. Simply ad hominem tactics.

There seems an obvious double standard for what constitutes proof. There appears either a misunderstanding or an avoidance of what is a fact and what is an appearance of fact and still subject to absolute cause and effect connection. The arrogance is rather insulting, at least in my estimation. This is key to the acrimony here, and similarly in the threads on importing of the container of engines.

I think it a bit presumptuous to suggest that the forum is for everyone regardless of whether a welcome continues to be extended. I feel that on a forum I am a like a guest in someones house; if I dont agree with the rules for decorum, I find some place more suited to a man of my disposition. ;D
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: DRDEATH on February 04, 2011, 02:23:29 AM
I would still like to figure out why there can be so much inconsistency's in WMO results. If we look at just WMO furnaces there was one instance where the ash production was great and in the WMO furnace used at the Kwick Lube here in Dodge it is a coffee can over the period of a season of using it. Is it strictly temperature related at the fire box? Could it be a difference in oil types? Is it how clean the oil is when it goes in the system. Some educated ideas from people much smarter that myself would help put my mind at ease when I decide what I am going to do next summer.

I will say the Kwick Lube does not centrifuge the oil but it has quite a bit of time to settle from the time it goes into the tank and when it is drawn into the furnace. I am going to see if I can get my hands on some of the ash and see how corrosive it is using it in some grease and rubbing it on a painted surface like rubbing compound. Thank you for this forum. Mike DD
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: mobile_bob on February 04, 2011, 03:21:55 AM
DD

maybe we should start another topic, and close this one down
it has become so polarized and polluted that in my opinion maybe it should
be scrapped and we start all over again.

btw, i am very interested in continuing the discussion

bob g
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: DRDEATH on February 04, 2011, 03:41:15 AM
That OK by me. It might make reading through post easier. Its up to you.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: DRDEATH on February 04, 2011, 03:49:13 AM
We will probably never have facts but we can sure come up with some strong educated opinions.. DD
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: BigGreen on February 04, 2011, 04:53:16 AM
I requested rbodell to come here to share his experience and method with us and he was greeted by being accused of being a snake oil salesman?  ???  ??? My deepest apology Mr. Bodell, I now regret my action. I still think you has the answer.

 Dave
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: billswan on February 04, 2011, 05:37:11 AM
Well guys this is the first time today I have had a chance to read this forum and this thread. WOW I just cannot believe the banned one.

Yes I sure would like to continue this thread but if admin would want to just purge or lock up this whole mess and just start over that would be fine by me.

My goodness................. :o

Billswan

 
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: DRDEATH on February 04, 2011, 05:54:37 AM
First of all I don't think anything was going to be purged, at least that was not my intentions. I felt that the first post could still be for research and go forward with a totally positive attitude that we would over come something. I just reread the part Bob wrote and I think his use of the word SCRAP might be out of context. As for Mr Rohdel I believe I did welcome his ideas and I did call Spencer on the carpet for making that remark. This topic will never have cold hard facts as long as the experiment is scattered out around the world. We can however come up with some strong educated opinions that will help the rest of us who depend on others experience. If starting a second post please continue to keep the old one alive. Somehow we need to come up with some answers. Please accept my apologizes. Mike
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: Bottleveg on February 04, 2011, 12:17:51 PM
Iíll put this up again now the shouting has stopped.
Iíve run a pressure jet burner for the last three years on wmo. It needs 100 micron filtered oil so to start I just tipped the wmo through a 100mic filter sock, drained any water, and fed it to the burner. All worked well but the firebox needed the ash removing every three weeks.
Now Iím very curious about things so, after a few months, I drained the wmo fuel tank, fitted a 50-micron filter and off it went again. Ash content was reduced.
I then tested a 20-micron filter and again had a reduction of ash in the firebox.
The burner I use heats the wmo to an adjustable temperature so it will ignite with spark ignition. If I use oil from the top of a settled oil tank it needs a lower ignition temperature than that drawn from the bottom. I believe this is because the non-oil particles settle out and the oil ignites easier if itís cleaner.
What I learned from this is that the ash is a result of the non-oil contamination. Iím not sure what percentage, it could well be that the additives create some ash, I donít know.
The wmo I use on my 8/1 is half micron filtered. Iíve had no problem, other than poor starting at minus 6c, but I donít have enough hours on the engine to give any meaningful results.
I notice Mr Rbodell uses 2 micron and I find his results both positive and encouraging.
I did try Ď1 micron filteredí oil on an IDI Isuzu engine but it suffered injector coking and unfortunately my experiment was flawed, I used a second hand filter sock from an unknown manufacturer so my 1 micron could have 7! However, it is my belief that the coking was due to non-oil contamination and not burnt additives.
Itís worth noting here that filter efficiency varies. I canít remember the percentages now but a cartridge filter generally gives better performance than a sock filter. It depends on the manufacturer and filters are made to varying specifications. Some 1-micron sock filters of Chinese origin have been found to only give 12-micron efficiency. As I remember, an Ďabsoluteí cartridge filter should be 98% efficient.
Clearly any filtration result comparisons would need to be from the same grade filters.
Any type of fuel that is not completely combusted will leave a residue, so it stands to reason that an engine that has several start-ups, or is running too cool, will produce more carbon or ash than one that runs for long periods at full operating temperature.
Similarly, an engine with worn parts and/or incorrect timing will not combust fuel as efficiently as a new or reconditioned engine.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: cgwymp on February 04, 2011, 01:03:26 PM
It's a shame Spencer had to be banned. I think it's good that he brought a potential issue to everyone's attention and started the discussion. I felt like he potentially had a lot to share with his experience using WMO. However, his adamant insistence that no one should ever use WMO under any circumstances, that it will without exception ruin an engine in short order, and that anyone who say otherwise is either blind or lying, left no room for productive discourse with him. So I understand why the decision was made. Hopefully going forward we can find some solutions to the problem or at least ways to mitigate it. The longer the engine lasts, obviously, the more the cost of the inevitable rebuild is amortised that the more economic sense even damaging fuels makes.

I don't like the idea of considering an engine itself as just another consumable resource, but I guess that's what it is no matter what the fuel. Better fuel just slows the consumption! But running it will ruin it eventually no matter what you do. All things are impermanent!
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: buickanddeere on February 04, 2011, 11:19:51 PM
   I wonder what the conclusions would be if everybody experimented with the exact same engine and the exact same source oil?  No wonder results and opinions vary with so many variables.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: westcoaster on February 05, 2011, 05:54:46 PM
I can't help but look at this whole debate as a "reinvention of the wheel" sort of thing. I have owned a cummins powered truck since '93. Even at that time there were dire warnings about mixing too much wmo in with your diesel fuel as engine damage would result. I never persued it much beyond "don't do it" so it didn't really come as much of a surprise to see Spencer's posts...

Clearly there is a way of processing waste motor oil into useable products. I posted a link in one of the other threads about a company in North Vancouver BC that has been processing 33 million litres a year for the last 32 years and producing a wide variaty of products.

The only real question is, can an operation like what they have in North Van be scaled down into something a back yard enthusiast can manufacture and operate safely and efficiently all while producing a product that is consistant in quality...
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: DRDEATH on February 05, 2011, 08:07:46 PM
I don't think any one denies the point using WMO will change the life expectency of an engine. Once the best diesel is placed in an engine it begins to wear down. So between using the best diesel to using the crappiest WMO would the pay off be worth it.

One person having a problem does not mean a solution of some kind could not improve things. Bill S used WMO and had a short life to his engine. From his post he did not say their was no solution to improve things. It boiled down to what the WMO cost to the hours the engine will run. Then this lets people decide if it is worth it.

As for having a refinery in the back yard that is not an option. If it turns out that is the only solution after numerous attempts are tried then I guess WMO for engine fuel is a bad option. I don't believe this is true because it seems that some people are having good results. So there must be someway to accomplish this. As for experimenting with numerous supplies of oil and numerous engines an intelligent opinion can still be made.

 

 
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: DRDEATH on February 05, 2011, 08:20:01 PM
I sure wish I knew the secret to making a longer post because after it gets so long I can seem to make it work very good.

So back to the auto industry I remember in the 70's when unleaded gasoline came out everyone said it would not work in vehicles not built for it. That was a hoax just to get people to trade. We used it in vehicles that had always used regular gas. It may not have had the same zest but it still worked. So I myself have very little faith in what they say.

So I would guess the auto industry and the gas companies are still like a couple of twins who do not do anything without each ones consent.



Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: bschwartz on February 06, 2011, 12:10:53 AM
I can't help but look at this whole debate as a "reinvention of the wheel" sort of thing. I have owned a cummins powered truck since '93. Even at that time there were dire warnings about mixing too much wmo in with your diesel fuel as engine damage would result. I never persued it much beyond "don't do it" so it didn't really come as much of a surprise to see Spencer's posts...

I think it is fairly safe to assume that Cummins NEVER expected people to filter their WMO with a centrifuge prior to use.
So, mixing in "too much" is really subjective.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: asavage on February 28, 2011, 04:36:51 AM
[quote author=DRDEATH link=topic=5574.msg67004#msg67004 date=1296937201So back to the auto industry I remember in the 70's when unleaded gasoline came out everyone said it would not work in vehicles not built for it. That was a hoax just to get people to trade. We used it in vehicles that had always used regular gas. [/quote]

Induction-hardened cast-iron valve seats did not hold up well to the removal of lead.

I've had to have several cast-iron heads machined to accept hard seats.  The engines would have decent compression, but the rotating valves would wear the seats down so far that the valves would become shrouded in the head, and little airflow could occur.  They'd run, but poorly, and the compression numbers wouldn't tell the whole story.  Rebuild the heads, new seats, and bingo!  Back in the saddle.

Engines with aluminum alloy heads have hard seats already, so little change was noticed with the removal of TEL, but I was seeing only about 40-80k miles on cast-iron heads on unleaded before we'd have to pull them and install hard seats.

So, it's not a complete fallacy that going to unleaded caused more wear.  I know it was a good move, to substantially reduce the lead in our environment, but there was a mechanical downside.
Title: Re: Wmo
Post by: mactoollover2005 on April 01, 2015, 07:16:49 PM
Hi Guys.

After reading this topic all the way thru and having a military mechanics background with using variouse different types of oils and brands.

 I wonder if the big difference in peoples eng life expectencies could have something to do with the chemical compositon of all the different brands and types of engine oils. No 2 oil companies seem to make ( for example ) a 5w30 the same ,much less a 10w30 and so on. brand x doesnt use this chemical and billy bob has outstanding engine wear and performance but loosysue uses brand y which uses another chemical and cant get past 750 hrs before a major rebuild is required.

Just my 2 or 3 thoughts.
P.S. sorry for the long post.

Derek