Lister Engine Forum

Alternative fuels => Bio-diesel Fuel => Topic started by: quinnf on December 09, 2005, 02:38:17 AM

Title: Biodiesel Information
Post by: quinnf on December 09, 2005, 02:38:17 AM

For those of you who are interested in what's involved in making biodiesel, here's an excellent site.  Some friends are doing this, using waste fry oil from the kitchen of a large corporate employer nearby my work, and the product is of the consistency and color and clarity of mineral diesel.  Their diesel VW jettas have no complaints and run on it daily. 

I've made a few batches myself just for grins and the process works well.  Making it cost-effective would take some investment in time and a little space for equipment, which can be found in any junkyard.  The biggest recurring expense is securing a reliable supply of affordable methanol, but probably the most difficult task is finding a source of relatively clean oil without too much animal fat.  However beggars can't be choosers.  It all burns. 

Maybe this can be a place where we can generate some interesting discussion.  Enjoy.

Quinn

http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: solarguy on February 20, 2006, 11:41:19 PM

Please be aware that much of the information concerning biodiesel brewing protocols (recipes) found on the Journey To Forever website are outdated at best, and downright misleading or wrong at worst.  Although the website is attractive and appears well researched, there are fundamental errors that will cause a new home brewer a world of trouble.  Especially, you should avoid using the so called "Fool Proof" method.  It's wrong and will cause you to make bad fuel, or no fuel at all.

I do not lightly offer this criticism, but this is important to the folks who are new to the hobby.  I am one of many who hold this opinion. 

A far better resource is:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums

Some of the smartest biodiesel amateurs and professionals from around the world are frequent contributors to this discussion list.  And unlike the JTF site, they are genuinely interested in science, experimentation and helping the newer members.

If you go to the the infopop site and do a search for the "Foolproof Method" you will find loads of information from lots of people with integrity and know-how, who are highly critical of the junk science behind this recipe.  It pains me to say this, but the gentleman who runs the JTF site is widely acknowledged as the laughingstock of the home brew biodiesel world.  There is no easy way to put that.

On the bright side, both my Lister and my VW love the home brew.

Finest regards,

troy

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: hotater on February 21, 2006, 02:02:49 AM

WOW!!  What a load of great information.  .  ;D

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: solarguy on February 21, 2006, 02:12:45 AM

Dear Hotater,

I am officially warning you that if you fiddle around very much with biodiesel, and/or the Infopop website, you will be completely addicted and there is no known cure.

Good luck and have fun!!

troy

ps, this post/laptop is biodiesel/Listeroid powered

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: Canuck on May 10, 2006, 05:14:07 PM

Hi All,

I have an "appleseed" (converted 175 litre electric hot water tank) reactor running in my garage... and have pumped a few thousand litres of biodiesel through it using the two step (acid/base) method as outlined in the infopop site mentioned earlier in this string.

I think that the Journey to Forever site is a good place to get an overview but the technical expertise is to be found on the infopop site.

I run my cummins powered truck and my parents TDI VW on 100% Bio... (The VW has run on it since new) I plan to use Bio to run a Listeroid Genset....

Given that I haven't purchased the Listeroid yet.... does anyone have any info on bio compatability in the Lister clones?  I know that the original seals in the (chinese made) gear pump I use in my reactor lasted about ten minutes once Biodiesel hit them!

cheers,

Canuck

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: solarguy on May 10, 2006, 11:38:34 PM

I have run hundreds of gallons of B100 through my Lister with no fuel related problems.  Lately the fuel pump seeps a tiny bit, but I'm not convinced that using biodiesel all along would have prevented that.

Please note that I threw away the original fuel line, petcock, fuel filter and fuel tank, so can't comment on compatibility.  They were crap to start and it is unlikely that biodiesel would have improved that any.

Finest regards,

troy

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: kpgv on May 11, 2006, 04:52:45 PM

If a guy wanted to try the Bio-diesel route, but didn't aspire to become a research chemist and inventor in the process, which "program" would you recomend to go with that will work best by "Follow the Directions"?

Kevin

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: rgroves on May 11, 2006, 05:13:15 PM

Quote from: kpgv on May 11, 2006, 04:52:45 PM

If a guy wanted to try the Bio-diesel route, but didn't aspire to become a research chemist and inventor in the process, which "program" would you recomend to go with that will work best by "Follow the Directions"?

Kevin

http://www.girlmark.com/

Mark Alovert has a good, well-written manual for a simple reactor based on a water heater.  Easy to understand, low on the lefty bullshit.  Grounded in understandable chemistry.  She teaches classes all over, and is often in the Denver area.

Russell Groves

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: Canuck on May 11, 2006, 06:06:50 PM

Hi All,

I agree with Russell... If you're going to seek out a single guru for all things biodiesel.... Mark Alovert (Girl Mark in her postings) is the one to turn to.

For a good example of what a reactor looks like go here...  This is not mine... but is very close.

http://www.cybernet1.com/mcquaid/Appleseed%20proccessor.htm

couple of cautions.... I would strongly advise all newcomers to the biodiesel process to experiment with small scale (blender batches) runs first. When you are confident, move up to a 20 litre pail and then the full scale reactor. This is particularly important when you are dealing with heavily used waste oil that is acidic and needs the two step (acid/base) reaction. 

The whole process is very simple, but there are some subtle things to look for and it is much easier to deal with a blender full of goo than 175 litres!  (ask me how I know this!!   ::) )

The Methanol/Sodium Hydroxide solution is NASTY...it will turn your skin to soap faster than you can wash it off.

When dealing with small batches in an unsealed pail there is a strong possibility that a lot of the Methanol will fume off. If you lose enough the reaction will halt and you will be left with Goo or gel. Plus the Methanal fumes are both toxic and explosive.  Make sure you have a lid of some sort on your reactor.

Fore warned is Fore armed as my Grandfather used to say!

Good luck!

Rob.

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: Rainbow-Farm on October 27, 2006, 05:37:21 AM

Rob/Canuck:

I was looking at Girl Mark Alovert's water-tank set-up and I noticed that she uses a water pump from Harbor Freight/Northern Tools, on sale right now for $25. I had been looking at fuel pumps for diesel that run to $250.

The 1/2 HP pump from Harbor ... well, if Girl Mark is using it, then I have to presume that it can handle the biodiesel with no issues (material in seals, like rubber, etc.)... do you have any experience with this aspect of it?

For the source of oil, I keep hearing from people who buy vegetable oil that is past its date, for cheap... like for less than the extra cost and bother of used oil. Might be worth checking out (each to his own, as this is all local/regional... gotta find it close to home).

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: biobill on October 27, 2006, 01:42:08 PM

Hi Rainbow
 I've got one of those blue Chinese 1/2 hp pumps that I use to transfer oil into the reactor, 150 gallons at a time. It's slow but has been reliable. Don't think that I'd count on it for biodiesel though. The pump is available through many sources and none of them have claimed compatibility. It's a straight centrifugal type and I suspect the shaft seal would degrade.    Bill

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: Rainbow-Farm on October 27, 2006, 02:16:22 PM

Thanks, Bill. I am looking for something to get the biodiesel up into the fuel tank above the engine (for gravity feed).

Although, first I have to make some... still looking for the lye, and still working on getting some spoiled (past expiry date) or used oil.

I have (solar panels and) batteries at my unheated camper... not too good in the cold... heating cost not worth it... just started thinking of running the whole thing on the generator on biodiesel. I could use all the electric heat I want. The propane heater burns my eyes after a day or so, and the electricity is 32 cents down there in winter.

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: biobill on October 28, 2006, 01:42:02 AM

Quote from: Rainbow-Farm on October 27, 2006, 02:16:22 PM

Thanks, Bill. I am looking for something to get the biodiesel up into the fuel tank above the engine (for gravity feed).


.I have (solar panels and) batteries at my unheated camper... not too good in the cold... heating cost not worth it... just started thinking of running the whole thing on the generator on biodiesel. I could use all the electric heat I want. The propane heater burns my eyes after a day or so, and the electricity is 32 cents down there in winter.

  Hi Rainbow
   Ya know, if you are on limited solar  power, (like me) I'd just get a manual barrel pump. The suction tubes are removable so you can configure it however works for you. They are inexpensive and quiet, and you only need to pump about 6gal/24hr for the thumper.
   Being in a similar situation as yourself, my processer was origionally set up as mostly gravity feed with a lawmmower engine to power the mixer and hand pumps to do what gravity couldn't.  Seemed all wrong though, using gas to make bio. and, at 150gal batches , it was a workout. Hence the Listeroid. Its also much nicer to listen too than that screaming B&S. Good luck, Bill

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: Chuggy on January 16, 2008, 12:15:31 PM

Another great resource for biodiesel is our collaborative biodiesel tutorial (CBT) lots of input from 'Mark' Maria Alovert and other well known names in the biodiesel community.

http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/

peace n grease
junk and disorderly
Chug

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: Rainbow-Farm on July 19, 2008, 08:46:44 PM

Oh, boy, has some time passed! There was a medical problem in there. I now have 2 generators running on biodiesel. I have put aside any idea of running the NY place on anything. I don't get there much, and now wonder why I go at all, even though I know why.

We also got 3 Land Cruisers, diesel (never sold in US, but many ended up there), all running on biodiesel.

I still have a pile to do, but things are well on their way. The price of gas forced/caused production of ready-to-burn 2-micron veggie oil and biodiesel from that same veggie oil. I can get it delivered, good price on the storage tank, or I can drive over and pick it up, maybe 10 miles from home.

The times they are indeed a changin'

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: LowGear on January 27, 2009, 08:16:26 AM

Hi Rob,

I went and looked at the modified Appleseed processor and where in the Dickens do you find those fancy water heaters for under $600?  I see at least 3 more ports than any of the plain-vanilla units I have here at the house or anywhere I’ve seen in a conventional setting.

Casey

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: carlb23 on January 27, 2009, 01:47:11 PM

Casey,

From what i have read i believe that most regular electric water heaters have extra ports that are plugged that can't been seen with the outer jacket and insulation on.  This is not first hand knowledge but only what I had read.

Carl

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: Canuck on January 28, 2009, 11:07:34 PM

Hi Lowgear,

I bought mine from the local Home Depot, but that was a couple of years ago now and I couldn't tell you where the best deals lie at this point.

My tank has the one port  near the bottom that is normally used to drain the tank.

There are four ports on the top... Cold in, Hot out, Pressure/Temp safety valve and the port that is normally occupied by the sacrificial anode rod which must be removed.  (I didn't use this port and it is currently plugged with a 3/4 plug.)

On my tank all five ports are 3/4 NPT which made it simple to organize the plumbing. My system draws the oil from the bottom port to a chinese made gear pump and sends it back to the old "cold" port on top via a glass re-enforced clear tube. Enroute it passes through a manifold that allows me to either pump out oil or draw in the Methoxide.  The pump is driven through a flex coupler by a 1/3 HP motor. Also found on this manifold is a cheepo automotive temperature guage sender to lets me keep track of the working temp of the reactor.

The old "hot" port has a "T" plumbed in where the vertical port is used as a gravity port to introduce the Acid and alcohol for the Acid/Base two stage process that I use. The horizontal port is home to a pressure gauge that allows me make sure I don't exceed the safety margin of the plastic hose mentioned above. I let my system pressurise to 10PSI then the heater switches off. This is a 100% safety margin for the hose I use.

The old "safety" port has a "T" plumbed in that has the original pressure/temp safety valve screwed into the vertical port and a nipple that fits my compressor hose in the horizontal port. I use this port to lightly pressurize the tank to aid in draining it.

I disconected the upper heating element as there are times when it will be above fluid level... and I really don't need the exitement that might follow an electrical heater burning out that is exposed to alchol vapour at 160 degrees F.

There are lots of shut-off valves in my system that allow me to completely seal the tank if needed.

If you go this route be sure to remove the 1.5 meter long thinwall plastic pipe that you will find inside the cold port before adding your plumbing.

I hope this helps, feel free to PM me if you need more info!

R.

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: LowGear on January 28, 2009, 11:59:37 PM

Hi R.

Thanks for the post.  Yup, these are the tanks I'm used to working with and around.  The link http://www.cybernet1.com/mcquaid/Appleseed%20proccessor.htm posted above in this thread takes us to a modified appleseed unit that has connectors comming out the sides - which usually means many bucks.  I contacted http://www.easthawaiibiodiesel.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=9766914cd80a681407186e7281b3b71b& and the fellow that administrats that site is going to have me over when his methenol arrives and give me a couple of full sequence rides to see how it's done with basically the tank you and I have.

LowGear

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: LowGear on January 29, 2009, 02:10:31 AM

Aye, they do.  In the good ole days these heater elements screwed in but I think the glass linings had problems with the treads so we now have the gasketed ones.  Did you count how many side ports the linked appleseed had?

Casey

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: LowGear on January 29, 2009, 03:56:13 AM

Hmmmmmmm.  My experience has been the opposite so I went out to eBay hardware and they are about 50-50.  I haven't seen a threaded screw-in element in years and years.  This is the Pacific Northwest and Hawaii.  Most leaks I've seen are at the element port as well or where there's a small dent.  I think the dent cracks the glass and the rusting begins but that's only a private theory. 

I'm really looking forward to the show and tell when this East Hawaii BioDiesel fellow gets his alcohol.  Of course, there's still the romantic attachment to those coned plastic tanks but you have to let KISS (Keep It Simple and Smart) raise it's head once in a while.

Casey

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: Canuck on January 30, 2009, 12:02:49 AM

Hey Casesy,

Every tank I've ever seen here has had screw in heaters... (I'm on the coast of B.C.) but this may be due to a federal/provincial regulation that doesn't affect you... dunno tho.

I'm now on my second tank, the first corroded around the lower heater port. I think this was due to my leaving the acidified oil sitting in the tank for a spell while I was out of town tho. For whatever reason I got two years out of the first tank. If had the bucks I'd build a stainless tank with a conical bottom and two heater ports low down. 

As a hint that I learned the hard way...If you use a flex hose to run from the pump to the top of the tank it makes switching tanks a lot easier. The port placement is not the same from tank to tank and the flex hose helps to compensate for this without buggering around with the cast iron pipes.

let us know what you think once you've seen the process run a time or two!

cheers,

Rob.

Title: Re: Biodiesel Information
Post by: LowGear on January 31, 2009, 12:26:07 AM

WHEN I"M WRONG I DON"T MESS AROUND!

I checked with my water heater guru back in Renton, Washington at the world famous McLendon Hardware.  Lady Di believes I'm at least 20 years out of date (she's a very kind and gentle person).  Every one of the heaters in their many stores have screw in heating elements.  I learn so much on this site - dang-it.  When you're the most sure you're often surely wrong.

Cheers,

Casey