Lister Engine Forum

Slow Speed Diesel Engines => Red Stone Engines => Topic started by: jens on March 16, 2009, 03:22:24 AM

Title: Redstone engines
Post by: jens on March 16, 2009, 03:22:24 AM
removed
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: piperpilot3tk on March 16, 2009, 09:15:54 PM
Jens, this is the information I recieved from one of the two individuals that are currently importing the Redstones.

Hi Mike;

I am in Canada, if you are as well I can help you out.  If you are in the U.S. I will pass you over to my associate there, Joel Koch, who has Redstones there.

I have a supply of them here, below is some technical data on them.  Price on an engine is $2495 Cdn.

One of these engines is capable of from about 10-12 HP continuous operation, up to about 24 HP, continuous.

A long-time (40+ years) diesel mechanic friend has this to say about it: "that engine should reach peak efficiency at around 1200-1300rpm

the piston speed  at 1300 rpm is  about 1200ft/min which puts it in the slow speed class of diesel engine's

same as the monster ocean ships running at 180 rpm

at 1300 rpm you should get about 12 kilowatt mechanical, and do a good match with
either an st10 or st12 head.

there will be nothing that will touch it in the listeroid world for economy"

Redstone RS115 specifications

Horizontal, single cylinder, two flywheel, electric start, water-cooled slow-speed diesel engine with alternator AND water pump.

5.315" Bore, 5.12" stroke

115 Cubic Inch Displacement

15.5 to 1 compression ratio

12 HP@1000 RPM

16 HP@1200 RPM

22 HP@1500 RPM

250 grams/KW/HR fuel consumption (reported elsewhere at 190 low at max torque, 220 at max RPM)

80 foot pounds of torque

2800 PSI injection pressure

Dry weight 800 pounds

38"X23"X28"H

We did some tests, and even at 1100 RPM, it did a good job.

They are a "modern" engine in that they have an enclosed valve train, are self oiling, etc.

They have a counterbalance shaft and the one I have seen run had no vibration from 900-1000 RPM to the top of its range (about 1500 RPM.). All reports so far is they are an extremely strong, durable engine. The main bearing on the crankshaft, (drive) side is almost 7" in diameter, and 1 1/2" wide!!

The engine holds about 14 quarts of oil, so this is no tiny pup!!

You also get spare parts, such as a ring set, large end rod bearing, head gasket, set of valves, and a few special tools, such as the flywheel puller.

We also stock the "PS" (good) ST heads as well, in 5, 7.5, 10, 12, 20, and 30 KW sizes.

If you are looking for lower cost diesel engines, we have those as well.

You can also see more on the engines at the following websites:

http://www.woodnstuff.ca/redstone.html

Please see http://www.utterpower.com/blackstone.htm , for a very similar engine.

Redstone info at http://utterpower.com/Redstone.htm

Regards,


John P. Ferguson
Belleghuan Ltd
www.woodnstuff.ca


Hope this gets you pointed in the right direction.  Mike H. ;D
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: apogee_man on March 16, 2009, 11:51:49 PM
I've also received a similar reply regarding these engines.

I was not comfortable with the concept that there on only two sources for parts in North America.  I specifically asked Mike who was building them because I wanted to do some homework on the manufacturer and see what else they built and wanted to find out about other's experiences with their products.

They were not willing to share who is building them as they were concerned that their investment in these engines and developing this market would be compromised.

I understood, but was still disappointed as I'm not willing to buy something like this for this amount of money if I don't have multiple parts sources.

Looks like a darn nice engine though!

Steve
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on March 17, 2009, 12:15:26 AM
i have seen only one so far, and was there to see it start and run for the first time,
what a brute, and a very well behaved brute it is

sitting on the shipping crate bottom clicking away at everywhere from ~1000rpm to 1500rpm
and it just sits there like it was bounded to the ground.

very well refined in its balance, has a real oil pump, full pressure lube to all important parts such as the
rod big end, piston oiler/cooler, DI

if i had need for the kind of power it is capable of i would have a pair of them now for myself!

who know's, i might change my mind should my needs increase for more power.

it is a quantum leap over any listeriod certainly, and in my opinion a large leap over even an original lister twin.

the price at first might seem a bit high, but looks competively priced to the listeroid twins
and for the money i would rather spend 2500 canadian on a redstone any day before parting with the same
money for a listeroid twin.

personally i think with a bit of governor work the redstone ought to be able to run reliably and smooth
at under a 1000rpm.

in my opinion as delivered they are very good at 12-1300rpm.
and i expect when the engine's get properly applied they will be the most efficient of all the listeroid/changfa options
i think the 250 gr/kwatt/hr is on the high side, i would not be at all surprised to hear that they can break the 220gr/kw/hr
barrier with very little work, and possibly much better than that.

if one gets a chance to see one run it will surely put a big smile on the face! :)

but what do i know, today is my 34th anniversary as a professional diesel mechanic :)
(who would of thought i would live this long?)

:)

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Wizard on March 17, 2009, 12:21:03 AM
And one more, how can be possible just with one counter balance shaft?   Is there another hidden inside the crankcase to keep engine from hopping up and down if using one balance shaft?

Counter balance shafts tend to be in pairs for 1, 2 and 4 cylinders engines.

And one more,  12, 23HP is kind of large, won't there be smaller versions that is about half that even 8hp at less rpm for quietness, 9hp at max rpm?

And apogee_man had good points on multiple sources of makes for parts, back in the old days (pre 8088 era),  IBM had same concerns because only one maker that IBM wanted to use ICs was Intel and IBM had good sense to insist on at least two sources of same parts from different makers.  Governments had same concerns back then as well before that too.

Mobile_bob, how is the thumping vibration transmission into ground with this running of redstone especially under load?

Cheers, Wizard
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on March 17, 2009, 01:23:38 AM
i have not seen one running under load, but i know i would have no problem isolating it from the ground
the only load that was placed on that engine that day was a 2x6 lifted under a flywheel, enough to get her
to load down nice and hard,, no noticable thumbing that i recall.

it has a single counterbalance shaft and makes very good use of it.

personally i don't expect there will be a need for near as many repair parts as is common with listeroids.

bob g

Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Doug on March 17, 2009, 01:34:59 AM
Hey look at that the redstone is back....
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Wizard on March 17, 2009, 01:48:42 AM
Can one explain how this possible to have one counter balance shaft work out with one cyl?  Is it only to cancel the crank "slider" viberation motion because crank is 100% balanced to the piston/rod weight?

Cheers, Wizard
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on March 17, 2009, 05:43:54 AM
Wiz:

don't quote me on this, but i think you have it right

the changfa has twin countershafts but they are timed to place the weights so that they effectively
swing together, so it would follow that if the changfa had room it too could work with a single counterweight.
it doesn't have room so it uses two smaller weights to = one larger weight.

from what i remember from the prints of the 195, i would have to conclude that the engine is balanced 100% in
the horizontal plane (piston/rod/crank) and the out of phase is taken care of with the counter balance shaft(s).

that would make sense to me.

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: compig on March 17, 2009, 09:36:24 AM
Which country do these originate from ?
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: JohnF13 on March 17, 2009, 01:34:13 PM
The engines are manufactured in China.  For those of you worried about parts only being available from two sources, we will have them at a reasonable price. 

Wizard, we did not want to get into the "multiple offering" situation that the Listers have fallen into.  Part of that was cost - it is expensive to bring in new type of engine and hold stock until they begin to sell - but more importantly, who really knows if they need a 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 20, 24 or 28hp engine?  Do you want a "standard" Lister or a GM90?  Allowing for the wide range in the one engine can satisfy a variety of people and has the added bonus of being scalable if a  person's need for power increases. 

We are working on a larger 2-cylinder that will produce around 36hp but quite frankly I forecast very limited demand for such an engine except from those that have size issues.....
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Wizard on March 17, 2009, 03:02:27 PM
Good points.

Still, I'm curious about this balancing set up it was designed this way.  It is first time I seen this done with one balance shaft.

What is reason for horizontal instead vs vertical in inital design of this redstone?

Is this possible to redo the governor linkage?  This looks bit awkward for a V shaped linkage with pivot point at a ventex of "V" (greatest stress therefore greater friction) and governor's spinning round point bearing on the linkage will wear a pit in the linkage's flat side (?).  Pit will make the motion jerky/possible sticking point.  It is a fact I see all the time in mechanical stuff using this design not just for governors, this design is also used for static discharging a spinning assembly or to control some kind of mechanical within a spinning assembly via the sprung rod round point (pressing on the tip or let up pressure on it) that slides within the drilled shaft.

And one more let us know how the testing goes with 900rpm (around 8-10hp) long term run for ones who only need 4-6KW?

I could see a way to cut back to 3 gears instead of 5 if one is willing to cut larger gears with same pitch and put governor on the cam gear or on balance shaft gear and use a more straighter governor linkage.

Cheers, Wizard
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Stan on March 17, 2009, 08:55:19 PM
Steve...I don't think it's any secret where you can get chinese twin flywheel engines like the "redstone".  http://www.gasgoo.com/auto-parts-trade/product-detail-LKLPQOO/aftermarket-Double-Flywheel-Diesel-Engine.html   That's just one example that took less than a minute to find.   The real trick is to be able to import it yourself economically enough.
Stan
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: JohnF13 on March 18, 2009, 12:06:36 AM
Stan;

You got that one just a bit wrong.  The real question is - can you import a QUALITY unit without investing a whole lot of money first?
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Doug on March 18, 2009, 12:25:01 AM
That's a very good question John lol
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Stan on March 18, 2009, 02:02:55 AM
I suspect the real answer can only be determined with both money AND time!  Personally, I would love to travel to China and tour engine factories.  Unfortunately my wife wants to see the great wall, the terra cotta warriors etc. etc.  I sense there will be no compromise there.  ::)
Stan
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: apogee_man on March 18, 2009, 04:32:21 AM
Thanks Stan for the link.

I'd searched around and had seen similar engines advertised by Chinese companies, but hadn't paid attention to the HP.  By the pic, I just thought they were all Changfa's.  I should have looked more closely.

I have absolutely no doubt that Joel and John are outstanding to deal with.  I also think they would do whatever was necessary to support the engines. 

It was not my intent to cast a shadow on what they are trying to do in any way, as I'm sure the entire experience of dealing with them would be outstanding.  To date, Joel and I have emailed a number of times and I could not possibly ask for better customer service.  I'm not a customer yet, but fully intend to be one day, and he's been very patient with my newbie questions.  John sent me basically the same reply as at the beginning of the thread initially, and then explained their position when questioned further.  Again, very nice, very patient, and knowledgeable.  Couldn't ask for more imho.

An no, I don't have any relationship with either of them in any way.  Just relating my experiences thus far.

As part of my considering these engines, I simply wanted to know that parts will be available 10 years from now from some source somewhere.  Hence why I was interested in doing more homework on them.  I was slightly frustrated by them not being willing to disclose any more info on them, but at the same time I understood and respected their position on the matter.

For the record, George has info on it at the utterpower site.  I thought it looked very different from the pics that I'd been seeing that were similar to what Stan posted.  You can see better pics here:

http://www.utterpower.com/Redstone.htm

They appear to have done their homework and are trying to offer a truly nice product!

Finally, the price works out to be the same whether from the US or Canada.  No being able to take advantage of the currency difference going one way or the other.

Hope this helps!

Steve
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: compig on March 18, 2009, 02:04:37 PM
Chinese engines aint the chick magnet that the CS is though !!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Stan on March 18, 2009, 02:36:03 PM
Just tell them it's an engine that's discovered its nicer doing it on it's back.  Maybe you can follow up with a suggestion of your own.  You know, horizontal piston action?   :-*

Yup, I met John a couple of years ago when Andrew showed me how to find his place.  He struck me as a good guy, his offgrid setup is fantastic and is a must see if you are in the Ottawa area.

Stan
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Montana on March 19, 2009, 03:37:56 AM
Well the information on this engine is nice.  I have tried to contact the US guy to see if any are availible but its been several days and Joel Koch hasn't replied.  Is there any one else supplying them?   

If I can fnd one I'll buy it and sell the Omega 6/1 that I have in the basement.  I havent tried to start it yet as im still working on cleaning up the 12/1 Powerline I got for Christmas.
Mike
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on March 19, 2009, 04:20:05 PM
personally i wouldn't get too nutted up about the availability of parts 10 years down the road.

anyone here want to bet on whether Ford, GM or Chrysler will be around in a year? 5? 10?

its also fair to note the guys that are doing the redstone thing will have a distribution network setup
with engines and parts on all continents before they are done.

the engines themselves are so much better in design and build quality than that of the typical listeroid
that the likelihood of anyone needing any substantial hard parts is likely near nill.

most folks don't run 24/7, and if you are one of the few that do you probably will lay in a selection of repair parts
when you order your engine anyway. if you are running 24/7 you know you can't live without your engine even for a few days
waiting for parts even if they were on the shelf ready to ship from across the state.

anyone else that likely will be running intermittently, or during storms and the like
the engine will likely outlast most of us as is, and i wouldn't expect much of a need for parts apart from
maybe what comes in the spares kit anyway.

i suppose anyone that doesn't follow that logic should maybe look into buying some other engine?
maybe a kubota, yanmar or perkins?  even those might be tricky gettin parts for?

and who knows how many of those manufactures will be around in 10 years?

the way things are going now, i wouldn't bet on all of these manufactures being around.

for that matter does anyone of us have a guarantee we will wake up tomorrow?

:)

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Ironworks on March 19, 2009, 04:44:00 PM
I guess I'll play devils advocate here.  I heard the same propoganda and hype about the Listeroid in the beginning.  I think the proof will be in the pudding.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on March 19, 2009, 05:24:15 PM
hype?

so did i, and i took it upon myself to go have a look at both a listeroid and a changfa

and in my opinion the changfa was clearly a better designed engine for my use.

then came the opportunity to see a redstone come out of its crate, filled with oil, water and fuel
see it run just sitting there on the plywood slab.

took a look at the design prints in the manual, and saw how it was built internally
suffice it to say, comparing one to a listeroid is like comparing a steinway to a dime store kids 5 key noise maker.

the first thing i look at is overall design, second is casting quality, third is assembly, and finally how it runs

if i had use for what the redstone can deliver (and i might change my use to fit one yet) i would wholesale off all my other
engine's in favor of a redstone.

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: JohnF13 on March 20, 2009, 12:04:50 AM
Jens;

Negative thinking like yours ensures that there will never be any improvement.  Free-standing houses (as opposed to caves) flushing toilets, flight, internal combustion engines, space travel - all "unproven" at one point - are you suggesting that Ludditism is the way to go?  Someone, somewhere, has to start a new project or we are all doomed to inadequate failure - but that is not in the nature of man. Consider for a moment the problems you have encountered with your "proven" engine and what you have had to do to "fix" them.  What we observe while running the Redstones and what we discover when stripping them down down is what we report.  Neither Joel nor I have any interest in a "quick sale and out".  I think we have proved that with our commitment to the Listers and to our honest and open reporting of faults that we have found.

Where do you get the idea that "it is not ready for prime time"?  What in your quote actually says that? Anyone with a Lister needs "mechanical skills".  Of course it is a good idea to join a users group, the same as people on this forum learn about Listers.  Would you ever have managed to get your engine up and running without the infinite patience of this group?  Read again Mobile Bob's reports - what does he say about the quality of the engine?

As for pricing, you have absolutely no idea of the money and time we have put into these engines - and quite frankly, we are not going to tell you.  Importing, stocking spares,holding on to inventory and warehouse costs all add up. The engines are priced fairly considering our costs, pricing in China and shipping.  Additionally, pricing is comparable to a much lesser quality big twin Lister.  I will tell you that in business selling price is generally calculated at 3 times all input costs - our pricing is nowhere near that.


Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: compig on March 20, 2009, 12:39:46 AM
Quality of manufacture and materials will almost certainly be better from China than from India.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: BruceM on March 20, 2009, 01:31:36 AM
I just hope there will be a baby Redstone someday to replace my Listeroid 6/1.  Low speed but with enclosed valve train and more modern design, better QC would be a big plus.  Don't get me wrong, I'm very glad to have my Listeroid 6/1, the peace of hearing is marvelous.  But a baby Redstone would be even sweeter, for me.

Bruce M
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: compig on March 20, 2009, 09:37:21 AM
For me it doesn't look anywhere near as sexy as a CS and the speed is too high.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: JohnF13 on March 20, 2009, 11:08:44 AM
Jens;

You are missing a salient point - it is the Redstone USERS group. 

While the CS is certainly cuter, a lot of folks want higher power.  For those not using their engines very much a large single or twin Lister may work fine, but for those of us relying on the machines for constant output the Lister IMHO, is just not the answer.  As for speed, 1000 rpm vs 1300 - not much of a difference and certainly slower than a Changfa at 1800.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: compig on March 20, 2009, 11:26:27 AM
even 1000 rpm sounds frantic compared to 650 though. Agreed on the power issue.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: rcavictim on March 20, 2009, 01:58:27 PM
ahhhh but 1000-1200 RPM sounds so laid back and easy compared to 1800.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: compig on March 20, 2009, 02:08:21 PM
and 1800 sounds so soothing compared to 3600 rpm !! LOL !!!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: carlb23 on March 20, 2009, 02:48:01 PM
lol

Ever hear a Formula one race car turning  20,000+ RPM  now that is a screamer.

Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: compig on March 20, 2009, 03:11:52 PM
Indeed I have , from the pit lane at Silverstone !!  RPM's are reducing from this season though , to reduce cost's.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: carlb23 on March 20, 2009, 04:36:11 PM
Indeed I have , from the pit lane at Silverstone !!  RPM's are reducing from this season though , to reduce cost's.


Yes i think they have them limited to 19k

My wife and I have attended every F1 race at the Indianapolis motor speedway since they have been racing there.  Unfortunately there was no race in the USA last year and we had to go to Canada (was a very nice event) This year we may go to race in GB or Italy this year since there is no race in North America  >:(.  Did I mention I despise Bernie Ecclestone!!!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: compig on March 20, 2009, 04:58:14 PM
Well this year is the last British GP at Silverstone , it moves to Donington next year , so it will be an historic event. Also , the exchange rate is on your side currently. Would be wise to book up well in advance to get good seats though as I think this year will be a sell out. It's my ambition to see a major NHRA and NASCAR event soon , any recommendation on the best of those to attend ? 
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: carlb23 on March 20, 2009, 05:06:45 PM
Well this year is the last British GP at Silverstone , it moves to Donington next year , so it will be an historic event. Also , the exchange rate is on your side currently. Would be wise to book up well in advance to get good seats though as I think this year will be a sell out. It's my ambition to see a major NHRA and NASCAR event soon , any recommendation on the best of those to attend ? 

For NASCAR probably the Daytona 500 but they have so many races and it depends if you want to see high speed oval/tri-ovals or road courses.  (south east USA)

For NHRA probably the US nationals in Indianapolis   (Mid West)

carl
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Tugger on March 20, 2009, 05:10:54 PM
The Redstone engines look worthy of a full automation system...already has the electrics...nice when the wimmen can start them..
Making a Lister fully automatic kinda wrecks the beauty and simplicity of the engine..adding starters,wiring,pullys,solenoids quickly makes it into a frankenlister...
Redstones come ugly enough already to warrant automation....
I see the original Blackstone was 16hp at 800 rpm...so the similaritys are only in the engine configuration?
Cheers
Tug
 
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: JohnF13 on March 20, 2009, 05:12:28 PM
Jens;

The users group is a technical discussion board for people who either have a Redstone or have torn one down and rebuilt it.  For someone who has never seen one it would be difficult, to say the least, to follow the conversations and have any grasp of what is being said.  I think you made your case quite definitively for NOT being invited when you claimed it was "unproven" and "overpriced" without knowiing the slightest thing about the engine's capabilities.

'Nuff said, I'm done.


Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on March 20, 2009, 06:54:00 PM
from what i have read on utterpower re the redstone, i am not led to believe the engine is not ready for prime time
but rather an effort to ward off those individuals that aren't ready for prime time.

we all know the type, the guy that wants a hands off, turnkey genset and has neither tools, experience of a will to learn.

or the kind of fellar that has issues with everything he touches.

seems like a reasonable approach to me?

i am reminded of a quote attributed to ettore' bugatti
when confronted by a customer that had bought one of his race cars with a gripe that it was very hard to start on cold mornings,
he answered  "if you can afford one of my cars, you can afford to house it in a heated garage, have a nice day"

 ettore' might have been better served to use the utterpower approach to weed out the problem children before they become a problem for him?

bob g

Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: compig on March 20, 2009, 06:59:08 PM
Ah , good old Ettore !!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Quinnf on March 20, 2009, 08:04:55 PM
It's all about attitude:  Either you have it or you don't.

Quinn
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: piperpilot3tk on March 22, 2009, 01:29:27 AM
Is the Redstone users group a private site ? Can you read and follow along with the progress of these engines without being an Redstone owner/member ?  I would buy one in a second if I had the cash to do so. The way I look at it is there is nothing else on the market that appears to be a viable solution for a high horsepower low speed engine.  Even if the engine turned out to be not as well built as advertised it could not be any worse than a listeroid, and the cost is comparable.  I think it would be a much better solution than a twin listeroid due to the lower parts count and better apparent quality alone.  I would love to hear about some real, first hand experiance with this unit.  Jens, you need to buy one, work your mojo on it, run the hell out of it like you do your listeroid and report on it ! 
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Stan on March 22, 2009, 03:20:44 PM
You're a lot closer to Seattle.
Stan
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: oliver90owner on March 22, 2009, 03:54:39 PM
Attitude

There is good attitude and bad attitude and all shades in between.  There is also another word where one of the tees is replaced with a pea.  George at utterpower starts off with a warning about the applicability of a listeroid to the owner.......

I would be interested in the progress from this side of the pond.  I have a dark version of those engines - very dark.  I intend picking it up next week as I can now get the lorry off the field, without making a mess.  I shall be looking to see what is misssing from it and hopefully the parts will be obtainable somehow.  I am expecting it to be 16 horses at about 800RPM  and 10 at about 500RPM.

Slight difference is that the red one is an over-square engine so would not be so happy at the lower revs, I would guess, and would not be quite as long lived as the slower engine.  All pretty academic if they all last a life-time anyhow.  Oil pump capacity/gearing will be optimised for the rev range and that might be one area that could be looked at.  It is obviously a different engine, to avoid plagiarising the efforts/developments of others but the similarities are there to see.

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: apogee_man on March 22, 2009, 04:57:13 PM
John,

I for one would be very interested in being able to follow along on whatever forum is out there regarding these engines.  Perhaps setting up something where only owners can post might work.  However, there is also a ton of practical experience that owners might directly benefit from that would be excluded by doing that.

I'm am still very interested in one of these, just can't swing it because cash is a bit short right now.  However, eventually it might be a possibility, especially if I get frustrated by the lack of Lister parts for my CD and CE models.  (understand why parts availability is an issue for me?)

I don't believe limiting available information is to anyone's benefit.  Further, imho limiting available information will most certainly limit sales as a large part of selling is building up anticipation.  I know of no better way to do that than by following along the trials and tribulations in a forum...

Just my thoughts.

Steve
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: apogee_man on March 22, 2009, 05:28:13 PM
Also, three other questions:

Is this a wet or dry sleeve engine?

Can it be hand started without batteries if the fuel is gravity fed?

Does it come with a hand crank?

Please let me know.

Thanks,

Steve
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mike90045 on March 25, 2009, 08:18:58 PM
I'm nearly sold on one.   3-5KW is all I can use at the moment - no need for much more in a household, any idea of how these might coke up under light loads  ?    I've been prepping the wife for about a year, about reducing peak usage, in anticipation of being off grid in 2 years.

With all the prpblems with the listeroids, every one being different, except for needing a lot of tweaking, if these will still run decent veg oil / biodesel (not just filtered fryer crap), I'm in for one.

Mike
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Doug on March 26, 2009, 12:25:57 AM
All the actors and dancer in first possition on stage on stage.

lights, cue the smoke machine please.

And the band starts to play.

Hey can you still buy a Powersolutions Listeroid? Or has that joined the Petteroid on that long ride into the sun set.

As for me, well I am not going to get involved in this new play. Please someopne forward me a review later....

Doug

Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on March 30, 2009, 01:03:47 PM
yes it is wet sleeve, and also comes with a handcrank
and i am sure that gravity feed is no impediment to hand cranking the engine.

Doug:

it would seem you are a bit negative toward this engine, and i am wondering why?

this whole thing should be allowed to evolve, without evolution we would all be strapping down
maytag washer engine's and old delco 6volt generators to cob up some sort of power.

to me the mini petter had its place, its time in the sun, and found to be a bit more trouble than it was worth
was it a bad design? probably not, but if you can't get a decent build quality it is time to move on.

same with the listeroids, not a bad design actually a well proven design, but continuing QC problems, so time to move
on and try something else.

enter the redstone, in my opinion at least it has all the necessary components to make for a successful engine, the QC
is many times better than india to start with...

besides

continuing to do the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.


in my business i try to reserve judgement until i have had a chance to at least look an engine over, if upon inspection i see
what follows as classic design que's, high quality castings with good finish, clean and sharp machining, and if it appears to be modeled
after a successful design, then i can get excited about it. and why not?

kind of hard to get real excited about another listeroid, when 9 of 10 times the same sad story will be the result, no matter how
excited the seller is about his product and QC assurances from india.

it just seems like the redstone' time has come to step up to prime time and take its place competing with the twins and big singles.

pressed to make a bet, which would i put my last dollar on in a contest of longevity?

a typical listeroid twin (or big single) vs the redstone

the listeroid's fight card is not at all impressive, with its 1-0-999
where one in a thousand might have done well with no issues, 999 had all manner of issues
and there is no way to come out with a tie!

if the listeroid was a fighter no one would show up for the fight!

probably why the redstone came up,, maybe trying to sell a ticket to ownership of a listeroid was getting to be too few
and far between?

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: MeanListerGreen on March 31, 2009, 12:27:42 AM
Yes Doug, how dare you be negative.  I do believe you can be banned for that!   ;D
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Doug on March 31, 2009, 03:54:21 AM
Well Its been a couple of years since I was banned from someplace lol MLG. But thank you for reminding me lol.

Not negative at all Bob, 3 is the charm so maybe this Chinese clone of something ( yet to be fully explored ) will be the engine that changes everything.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on March 31, 2009, 04:03:52 AM
Doug:

it certainly looks like the chinese engine (redstone) has a lot going for it.

from what i have seen of it, it is a quantum leap above any indian product that i have
ever seen or heard of.

solid engineering, very good casting quality, top notch machining

don't expect there will be any serious issues with this engine

doesn't appear like the assemblers used a sledge hammer, and they seem to be able
to keep the real estate out of the crankcase and in china.

having a real oil pump, cross drilled crank, and no gib keys to fret over certainly are but a few
of many things that set it apart from listeroids.

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Stan on March 31, 2009, 04:21:45 AM
I think everyone should go for it and buy one of these.  Just remember, most large farming operations in the US and Canada depend upon huge amounts of credit for planting and crop harvests this fall.  Where do you think they are going to get that credit?  US banks?  And by extension, where is all the food going to come from if the farmers can't get credit to plant crops?  ???
Stan
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mike90045 on March 31, 2009, 06:50:17 AM
Anyone have any thoughts about the water pump?  Possible to disable it (remove belt) and let engine thermosiphon ?  I'd only have need for 6HP - would that crud it up and make it slobber, not fully loading it ?   I'd expect the water pump to be the first thing to go, even with using anti-freeze/coolant/pump-lube.  If it overheats - loss of water or whatever, is it easy to rig a thermo-shutdown  for it?
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: oliver90owner on March 31, 2009, 07:30:33 AM
Interestingly the similar Darkstone engine thermosyphoned and was run at a lower temperature than we normally suggest for Listers and 'oids.  Maybe they knew the temperature of the important parts, at the design operational temperature.

BTW, removing the water pump would leave even more HP unused......

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: lowspeedlife on March 31, 2009, 12:50:17 PM
I'd love to have a couple of them, don't know what i'd do with them but if you're suppling the credit I'm in.

    SR.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Quinnf on March 31, 2009, 07:05:35 PM
Stan said:

"Just remember, most large farming operations in the US and Canada depend upon huge amounts of credit for planting and crop harvests this fall.  Where do you think they are going to get that credit?  US banks? "

Stan,

Sure.  Why not?  They'll just print more money.  It's that simple.  Since we've been off the gold standard, the only thing standing behind our currency is the faith people have in the ability of the government to make good on their financial commitments.  So it's all about confidence.  You notice how loudly all the beaureaucrats in Washington are whistling?  While all the (non-government) economists are tearing their hair out and screaming about fiscal irresponsibility?  The whole thing is done with smoke and mirrors.  A house of cards just waiting for an unsteady hand.

Quinn
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: xyzer on March 31, 2009, 07:22:07 PM
A house of CREDIT cards just waiting for an unsteady hand.
Quinn,
I had to modify your quote to reflect that the goverment is behaving like the folks with all of the debt they had no buisness accumulating. Just get another card and transfer the debt. The current government credit card has our face on it!
Dave
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Doug on March 31, 2009, 09:36:35 PM
Doug:

it certainly looks like the chinese engine (redstone) has a lot going for it.

from what i have seen of it, it is a quantum leap above any indian product that i have
ever seen or heard of.

solid engineering, very good casting quality, top notch machining

don't expect there will be any serious issues with this engine

doesn't appear like the assemblers used a sledge hammer, and they seem to be able
to keep the real estate out of the crankcase and in china.

having a real oil pump, cross drilled crank, and no gib keys to fret over certainly are but a few
of many things that set it apart from listeroids.

bob g

Now replace the words redstone with E type Jag and China with UK.
Yes they looked great looks absolutely breat taking, but if the Lucas electrics didn't fail  you in the first months the fact it could be heard desolving in your drive way durring the rain would break your heart. You can't judge things based on looks......

Bob I sincerly hope you guys have something there that works and sells but I am not convinced untill there are some lucky non beta testers out there to say its realy that good. Of course like all things someone else will jump on the band waggon, maybe the container is already on its way ( since I let cat out of the bag a while back ).

So step right up who has some money and would like to test the reliability of a new engine that holds a lot of potential?
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Quinnf on March 31, 2009, 09:44:20 PM
Dave,

I'm glad somebody's awake!

Tom Clancy wrote a book* a while ago something about some crazed Samurai pilot flying a fully fueled 747 into the Capitol building while the President was speaking to a joint session of Congress.  Eery in this post-911 world.  Anyway, the ensuing mayhem caused confidence in the economic system to collapse, and with it, the whole economy.  He went on and on about how the economy is built on credit, and credit on confidence.  So with nothing but confidence behind the monetary system the whole thing can come tumbling down like a house of cards.  Ok, I plagiarized his metaphor.  But his point was valid, and somewhat prophetic, I think.  The torpedoing of the economy was likely one of the aims of the orchestrators of the 911 plot.  

q.

[*Debt of Honor (1994)]
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 01, 2009, 06:01:57 AM
Doug:

there is a ton of difference between style and substance

while the jag's had style, anyone familiar with mechanics and particularly electrics
knew full well up front what was going to fail, when and under what circumstances.

ferrari is certainly a fine example of style, but upon closer inspection it is painfully apparent that
there are lots of area's of concern.

but we aren't talking about fine cars, or a piano, or anything that has style here
certainly the listeroid/petteroid/changfa's are not going to win on the catwalks of the world
in most cases they are just plain ugly, warts and all.

when i refer to looks i refer to things down to the nuts and bolt level, well below the skin level
that might catch one's eye.
i look for things like quality of castings, quality of finish, and quality of fit to begin with
there clearly is no comparison between a lister/oid and a redstone in this regard.
then i look at the basic design, does it have full pressure lubrication, a real oil pump, xdrilled crank
what kind of brgs, what is the spacing like, sizing? and a plethora of other things.

basically i could care the less what the outside looks like, beauty truely is only skin deep unless you know what your
looking for.

some years ago while watching a special edition of antique's road show, they were at sotheby's (sp) and there was this
overstuffed chair that was to be auctioned off. it was beautifully upholstered and was a chippendale, they had an appraiser
there to look it over prior to auction.
the first thing he did was take out a penknife and cut the covering off the frame, ripped out the stuffing and all
looked like he destroyed a fine chair.
what he was looking for was the frame components to see if all was original or repaired, fake or whatever.
it sold for 275k dollars in a pile of stuffing and ripped upholstery.

so no, i could care the less what the redstone looks like, i wanna see under the stuffing and i have.
i have also seen one started for the first time, flat on a crate bottom
and it is very good out of the crate, much better than anything i have ever seen from india bar none

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 01, 2009, 06:13:10 AM
Doug:

one parting shot if i may :)

you having an electrician background likely if faced with evaluating a service panel
might observe the panel to look like a quality unit from the outside, but likely would reserve comment until
you opened the cover to see how it was built inside, whether all the wiring was routed well, of the proper gage,
the contactors were of proper design and size, and all that.

i doubt you would be easily dooped by a flashy coverplate?

so i guess my point is, i have been around engines for many years now, have had my hand at overhauling all sorts of them
and also have seen my share of indian products. i think i have enough experience to make a determination of which engine shows the
most promise out of the crate.

this is not to say that one can't make an indian engine into a good, reliable and useful engine, because clearly you can
with luck or enough time and effort.

the redstone vs the indian engine's really is like comparing apples to oranges
the redstone is just a more advanced design to start with, and certainly appears to need far less work out of the crate.

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: BruceM on April 01, 2009, 03:25:11 PM
What I like about the Listeroid most of all is the low speed, quiet running. 

I hope someone with much more skill and knowledge will experiment with the Redstone to see what the lower rpm operation situation might be.  Perhaps with a governor mod and maybe a new camshaft grind it could be slowed down to be a good replacement for a 6/1 Listeroid ?

Bob G, what do you think might be the technical  issues for for slowing down the Redstone?

Bruce


Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 01, 2009, 04:04:39 PM
i would think probably governor work and maybe a change in timing, maybe retard it a couple degree's
and it ought to be good at 1000rpm, maybe a bit lower.

iirc the one i witnessed the first smoke on, ran just fine down to around 1200rpm out of the box
and it did run pretty stable at as low as 925rpm, but the governor was a bit slow to react at the lower rpm.

not bad, just a little soft at 925, certainly merits some work in this area, because i think it could be made to work well
in that range.

from a vibration standpoint, i didn't notice any change at the lower rpm
the sound was noticably quieter at lower rpm as would be expected.

the oil pressure seems to be sufficient, as indicated by the red button, it stay's in the site glass even at low rpm

personally i think some governor work for 900-1000rpm would be all that is needed along with maybe altering the timeing a bit
to optimize for that rpm is all that would be needed.

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: oliver90owner on April 01, 2009, 04:50:46 PM
BruceM,

it could be slowed down to be a good replacement for a 6/1 Listeroid ?

It is, apparently, extrapolated as 10 Gee Gees @ 900rpm, so some way to go to be a direct replacement for a 6 horse engine.  The 'Dark' alternative is about 10 HP at 500rpm.  They have larger diameter flywheels and are a longer stroke engineand near twice the displacement.  Over-square engines have always been regarded as needing more engine speed for the same torque and not being so happy at slow speeds.  So I cannot see the Redstone as a contender for only 2.5 - 3 kw output - but I could be proved wrong.  I shall be investigating whether a JP will run happily at 400rpm......

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Doug on April 02, 2009, 02:50:15 AM
Doug:

one parting shot if i may :)

i doubt you would be easily dooped by a flashy coverplate?

The redstone vs the indian engine's really is like comparing apples to oranges
the redstone is just a more advanced design to start with, and certainly appears to need far less work out of the crate.

bob g

Well bob we have nothing to go on but a flashy cover plate so how do you know?
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 02, 2009, 03:51:05 AM
because i was there to see the first one uncrated, filled with oil, water and fuel
and then started, ran up to full rpm, down to a low rpm of around 900rpm
and various rpm's between, as well as a 8ft 2x6 used as a brake on the flywheel to load the
crap out of it.

i have also seen the parts and service manual, as well as pictures of every last part down
to the last nut and bolt, taken by an owner who decided to do a complete take down for documentation
of every last bit and piece.

so i guess i have seen a bit more than a flashy spec plate :)

btw, it sounds awesome, runs beautifully smooth, sitting on the plywood crate bottom
without hopping around, turning circles or doing anything but sitting there running as it should

the balance is quite good in my opinion.

and it burns nice and clean as well right down to lower rpms even without a load on it
and you can load it down till it makes black smoke as well with enough leverage on the 2x6 at low rpm
but good luck at full rpm, it takes a much bigger man than I to get it loaded with a board to the point it
makes any smoke.

is it perfect? maybe not? but in my opinion it is as close as you are gonna get in its class
is there anything i would change? not that i can think of?
is there anything i would add? yes..  a good radiator and a tstat but that is no hill to climb for a climber
as would installing a full pressure lube oil filter, another minor issue

the rest is just dressing, finish to suit the application and the to the owners spec's for what he wants to
do with it.

it holds a massive amount of lube oil at about 12qts, it has a gearrotor oil pump, it has a water pump
and reverse flow cooling system (which is a plus in my opinion), it has a piston cooler, a single balance shaft
which is apparently more than adequate (and in my opinion exactly what is needed), massive crankshaft main brg
on the drive side (so it can take serious side loads), the fact it has a xdrilled crankshaft is in my opinion a huge plus
as well, no doubt that the big end brg is getting more than adequate lubrication. it is direct injected and my bet is it will
produce some impressive fuel consumption numbers that the listers only wished they could attain (again in its class)
and it don't have gib keys! (how much better does it get!)

some folks might think it is a bit expensive, but it isn't a 6/1! it is however very competitively priced with the big singles
and certainly less money than a twin in its hp range.

is it as quiet as a lister? probably not,, but
i would trade noise for quality any day of the week, noise i can attentuate (as can anyone that makes an effort)

is it difficult to work on? yes and no depending on what you wanna do and if you are at all handy
i suspect just about anyone could remove and decarbon its head in half the time it would take to remove one lister gib key.
removing a redstone flywheel requires a puller of course, and it comes in the tool kit! no special order or special made puller required
and the flywheels can be removed in 5 minutes or less (depending how far you have to reach for your tools)

its just hard for me to imagine how this engine is viewed with a jaded eye, any engine that one does not have to tear completely
apart to desand, regrind lifters, reshape rocker pads, remove the piston to clean out, work on the far end cam bushing oiling issues of the
twin, replace the iron cam idler with a bronze idler and order a offset idler bolt (then worry about a broken cam typical of the big twins)
have a big end brg that is not only ample in size, but without holes and grooves in the high pressure region.

would you like me to go on?

how about liner height being right? head gskts that don't leak? valve guides that are true and fit right?
lifter guides that are true and plumb with the cam,

and no casting voids buried in elephant snot and mopped with 1/4 inch green "it covers all the sins" paint.

how about a governor that is nicely made, finished and works as it should?

the engine is compact, in that the crankshaft is short and very stout, no overhung weight as there is in the listeroids.
the journal finish is very good and it looks to have been induction hardened and parkerized.
the fillets are of proper size and finish as well, making for a nearly indestructable crankshaft.

the countershaft brgs are roller type, which is much stronger than the changfa ball brgs, so i would expect no issues
with them for the life of the engine.

i swear to the almighty, if i had use for the hp, and if i wasn't already so heavily invested in R&D of the changfa S195
i would not only own one, but i would own two of them now! and have a couple more on order!

in conclusion i would put a changfa s195 against any listeroid or petteroid in the 12hp class, i know this because i have
dyno'd my engine at levels far above the 12hp rating with the only issue being blown head gskts (which i have rectified
with an upgrade gskt).

the changfa is subordinate to the redstone in just about all area's i can think of, anything i would like to have in the changfa
is stock on the redstone.

the redstones piston speed is right in the hunt with other slowspeed diesel engines, most notably at peak torque, even though
the rpm is higher than the 6/1.

oh yes,, lest i forget
there will be no need for a ton of concrete with the redstone, unless the owner just wants a monolithic throne to sit it on.

damn, maybe i should order one and then figure out what to do with it?

:)

bob g

Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Tom on April 02, 2009, 04:26:39 AM
So bob, do you like these Redstone engines?  ;)
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Quinnf on April 02, 2009, 04:44:46 AM


Fetch, Bob.  Chase the stick!

q.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: hotater on April 02, 2009, 04:54:02 AM
Well SAID!!!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 02, 2009, 04:55:25 AM
in the order received

yes, woof, and thanks

:)

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Doug on April 02, 2009, 05:32:26 AM
because i was there to see the first one uncrated, filled with oil, water and fuel
and then started, ran up to full rpm, down to a low rpm of around 900rpm
and various rpm's between, as well as a 8ft 2x6 used as a brake on the flywheel to load the
crap out of it.

bob g


Small problem here now Bob way back I posted a link to the redstone and asked you about it and you said you knew nothing about this engine and then the link shut down and you made a bunch of jokes about redstone rockets....
And now you were there to see the first redstone uncrated..... 


just to refresh things

SO...
What's the next great white hype ?
Bob tell us about this?

http://www.utterpower.com/redstone.htm


 
 
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 09:46:14 PM by Doug »  Report to moderator    67.204.203.61 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken
 
 
mobile_bob
Hero Member

Posts: 2134


    Re: Spares to have on hand
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2008, 11:25:22 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doug:

i tried the link???

did you mispell it?

Redstone?  cool name!

can you give me a good link?

i have been so busy lately with the trigenerator i haven't had time to keep up with whats new
on the market.

i am liking the changfa S195 so well i can't imagine ever going to a petteroid or a listeroid, and i have both!
and they will stay in the crate to, maybe someone wants them worse than i do?

btw, i have
a 25/2 listeroid, new in the crate, preban engine, with bronze idler
a 20/2 petteroid, new in the crate, preban engine, with w/pump and radiator, and have another if you want a pair?
a 28/2 petteroid, new in the crate, preban engine, with w/pump and radiator, also have another if you want a pair?

if you want them i will make you a real deal!
i know i will likely never use any of them, getting too old and broken down to wanna hand crank an engine.

as for the redstone, i guess i can see if i can contact George and see whats up?
what do you know about it? is it anything like the blackstone?

now that would be cool!

bob g
 
 
 
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 02, 2009, 06:29:51 AM
Doug:


i know George, but
i assure you i don't sit on the board of directors of utterpower.com, or have anything to do with
utterpower.com's website, however with just a few clicks i came up with this

http://utterpower.com/Redstone.htm


perhaps you should have capitalized the "R" in redstone?


when i responded back in november of last year it was before i had seen one in the crate so to speak
and quite frankly what difference does it make now?

unless you are making the assumption that i have not actually seen one or heard it run?

quite frankly i don't understand your hardon for this engine, how are you hurt one way or the other?

perhaps you should contact JohnF, and ask him if the redstone exists and ask him what he thinks of the new engine?

bob g

Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: matt on April 02, 2009, 06:53:43 AM
Gee Doug it seems you like picking a fight!!!

I see no reason to doubt what  Bob g has reported.

Let's settle down and see what comes out of this interesting new engine find. It may be a real winner.

Matt
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 02, 2009, 12:42:40 PM
Matt:

no big deal, i think he is just pissed off that he hasn't figured out how to import one himself
and save paying an importer their exhorbenant profit of a hundred bucks or so.

:)

doink!  ;(

i certainly don't think Doug is suggesting that i made the whole thing up? and have never seen or heard a redstone run?

or maybe i am wrong, and he is suggesting just that?

so what do ya say there Doug? you calling me a liar?

(i been called worse, but my exwife has the rights to that all sowed up)

so what is the bitch with the Redstone Doug?  What do you feel is hype?

all i reported was my take on the engine, its design, my observations on how it started, ran, and operated under a load, its
build quality, attention to detail, fit and finish.

i don't think i stated that it was a rolex, bentley, stadivarious, steinway or even
a 100k hour engine like the wc andree engine (ya right!)

i just called it like i saw it, nothing more, nothing less.

btw,, what ever happened to the petteroid project? did you ever get it back together, running, mated to the genhead, and producing
something useful? i would think you of all people after reading your horror stories related to that petteriod would be all over a better quality engine?

are you pissed off at me because i reported the petteroids as being "all that and a bag of chips"?? and did you go out and import one
based on some report i made way back when? i really don't remember having said anything much about the petteroids one way or another, but i am sure you have me catalogued away in your data base and can produce where i might have hyped a petteroid?

but i doubt it!

btw,, i do think the petteroids are better engine's than the listeroids when it comes to the twins, but that is another story :)

so what gives, why so negative toward the Redstone?

bob g
bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: apogee_man on April 02, 2009, 05:28:37 PM
Well,

I, for one, am looking forward to eventually heading down to Joel's and seeing one of these in person.

It was certainly NOT my intention to instigate any bad vibes and it seems like this board is full of them unfortunately.

I do think a bit of the stigma of the Redstone might be due to the whole China vibe (at least for me) as I'm not fond of continuing to support them...  That having been said, I don't think we have much of a choice at this point, and this seems to be about the best thing that I've seen out on the market in this segment.

As long as the parts remain available, I don't think this engine is going anywhere.  Looks awfully nice to me!

I also think that half of the background noise about this engine is due to the information vacuum regarding details on the engine.  From that standpoint, I'd much rather any forum on it be readily accessible by anyone who is interested in them.

From what I've seen, it looks to be darn nice!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Quinnf on April 02, 2009, 06:22:23 PM
Yeah, it's too bad there isn't an "Ignore User" feature on this software.  Some people's contributions are consistently not worth reading.

Quinn
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: nobby on April 02, 2009, 07:30:26 PM
Well I am kinda of busy and was wanting to stay out of things right now, but you had to go bring Jaguar into this.  To be honest I am growing tired of all the Brit car bashing that I now experience living here in the States Lucas or not.  If Jaguar was such a pile of crap then how come it is ranked 4th in the most wins at Le Mans , one of the best tests of Vehicle Mechanics/Design longevity etc.  Lets put that observation into further perspective, Porsche is top however all of its impressive 15 wins are from 1970 onwards and really at a time when Jaguar was no longer really racing although there was a minor come back from Jag during this period.  Audi is number 3 and once again all its 8 wins are from 2000 and on so of no matter.  Which leaves us Ferrari ranked number 2 with 9 wins against Jaguars 7.  Now if I play real devils advocate here and ignore 2 of Jaguars wins because they are post 1970 that still leaves us 5 to Ferrari's 9.  That to me is impressive stuff especially considering the differences between the Jaguar and Ferrari companies etc back then.  Lets not forget that the E-type  IIRC won the SCCA twice within the classes that it raced in and as I understand it the secound time it was not one of the better funded teams.
The thing about Jaguar was that William Lyons goal was to create a poorer man sports/luxury car and IMHO he achieved that goal very well.

Now this went OT slightly however I am seeing an analogy here started by Doug in mentioning Jaguar perhaps the Redstone will become the poorer mans genset engine with a durability to match that of Jaguar exhibited at Le Mans.

China has more than one build quality, they can as far as I am concerned build quality stuff when they want as opposed to the usual junk that everyone is used to seeing.

Bob has reported good results from his own personal up close visual experiences on this engine and I for one based on all his input that I have seen here trust those reports.  Even if he does view me as a 'Non-Thinking Baboon' based on my political leanings!  ;)

Bottom line for me is that there is one reason why I would never buy a Listeroid, the simple fact that it arrives with a crankcase full off abrasive crud.  That right there speaks volumes about an engines quality of build and leads me to think no further on the subject.  The Redstone arrives clean that's a big tick in my book and gives some foresight into the build quality.

In all actuality this level of dissection is not applied generally to the purchase of engines, in our everyday lives do we really tear a new on the scene engine apart and minutely inspect it in every detail before purchasing it or the unit that it comes in?

Lastly this community consists of outside the box people trying to save a few bucks and have fun in the process.  Lets face it if we all wanted an easy safe solution we would all pony up the extra few thousand dollars and buy a ready made sound proof box genset or if we are trying to be frugal pick up a good used secoundhand one.  That do not come with eternal discussions on tons of crete, how to cool it, exhaust set ups etc etc etc.  So what if it has a couple of design teething issues, right now it's looking as though it does not have anywhere near the build flaws of a Blister and as far as a Changfa goes well Bob is already trying to figure out how to Justify buying one!  ;D

Cheers
Nobby

   
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Stan on April 02, 2009, 07:52:08 PM
I think the comment on the lack of concrete information on these engines is contributing to the negative feelings is valid.  This is sort of a "tease" situation which some people don't do well at handling. I wasn't evolved to live in a vacuum.

Perhaps we should be waiting until someone gets some running in a genuine "at home" environment and we can see videos, pics of the guts, have reports of how easy it is to disassemble, etc. etc.  No fault to John or Joel but they are both "professionals" of a sort at working both with and on, engines such as these.  I'm not, having grown up working on aircooled VW's so my take on them will be necessarily different.

I wouldn't be so hard on the Chinese either, anything made from ground up listers should be good  ::)
Stan
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: SteveU. on April 02, 2009, 08:21:40 PM
Well for awhile there some good information was coming forth, but now that the whole gang of attitude has shown up I expect this thread is pretty much done.
For the record: read my posts and I have supported this Redstone engine and even recommended it to a couple of fellows.
The problem isn't the engine, it's how it's being promoted. Secrecy. Breathless awe. Gotta' have it delayed anticipation. Wait. Soon. But only If you are a good little boy.
Will this be another mini-Petteriod that poops? They are still listed on site and promoted. Bunch of members here got burnt over that one.
Will this be another JXQ-10A Chinese gasifier stove sold and promoted as engine gas capable? Still on site and promoted too. 3-4 years and no one willing to claim a successful engine usage yet. How many members here bought into that one? Nobody who's willing to talk about it. As of this March, only $400. now; down from $1200. USD.
Or will this Redstone engine be like the 400 Chinese PMG generator heads and just "disappear" being only sold to a select chosen few under an oath of silence? I endorsed that product too. I just wasn't willing to take the pledge. So, show of hands, which of you did sell yourselves over that piece of eye candy?

Some here have had wonderful Utterpower/Powersolutions experiences. And some of us have not. So to you four guys now who are looking for a good engine, I say go for it.
And if your sales experience is good please do tell us about it. And thank us "the Banned" for helping to improve the process. If you go quiet then we will know this fine looking engine, like the PMGs, is just another seductive piece of eye candy presented to drag you down  with your oath of silence into the Utterworld. I've learned to prefer the world of openness, honesty, competentcy  and light: and only deal with suppliers with published phone numbers and addresses.

PMG? I be getting mine on eBay, of course. Soon.

SteveU.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: JohnF13 on April 02, 2009, 09:23:47 PM
Hey Nobby;

Totally off topic, but I'm in the middle of a 1961 Mark 2 3.8 rebuild.....
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 02, 2009, 09:46:31 PM
hey Nobby:

just for the record, i don't think you are a baboon or a baffooon either :)

also, no i am not crazy about a jag, but
the older v12 coupes were in my opinion an excellent excersize in styling, beautiful in my opinion.
whatever faults they might have had, as with anything solutions obviously were available.

actually i would like to have an early 70's xjs coupe, v12
even if the wiring might have issues after nearly 40 years, i would just rewire the damn thing from the ground up.

maybe that makes me strange in some folks eyes, but
i also absolutely love a '71 buick riviera (first of the boattail riviera's) 455 stage one, with a muncie would be nice thankyou very
much!

btw, Nobby... i can cut you some slack for your political leanings, you after all are an import from across the pond aren't you?

a few more years over here and we will convert you to a reagan republican, ultra conservative, guns out the wazzoo, 4x4 pickup driving,
jack daniels drinking, county western listening, nascar lovin, redneck that you secretly want to be anyway,, but are afraid to admit it

lmao, too funny

btw,, can you tell me what car manufacture was kicking jag, ferrari and all the rest back in '61 or was it '62 there on the english road race course's?  it had california plates if that is a clue (actually one of three taken from the showroom to england that year by the same team)?

it was widely reported you english folks loved 'em, at least the spectators (the other european teams not so much)

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: MeanListerGreen on April 02, 2009, 09:59:03 PM
It seems like some people don't want to accept that a new import could possibly be better than what is already here and get jugdemental about it. Just another thing for some people to learn in life. There will always be new things coming out. And if we think negative about some designs before we give a product a chance where will that put progress?  That is why the Redstone is being worked and torn apart by certain people. They see through all this negative junk and see that the Redstone will have a future. I believe the bugs have been addressed and are being handled in a timely manner. If the indian companies handled the issues with the Listeroids in a timely manner more people might be running Listeroids instead of looking for an engine that is more reliable.

I don't think it's the fact that people don't want to accept that it could be better as much as the fact that the Listeroid was built up to be the end to all means, then it's uncrated and what a shock!  Once bitten twice shy.  We now have another engine being touted as the end to all means and is  2 or 3 times the amount some of us paid for our roids.  If the engine is confirmed and does in fact live up to the reputation that is being pushed here, then I'm sure most people on this forum would eat a loss on the Listeriod just to have an engine of worthy of it's predicated reputation.    Hopefully it is,  but I ain't buying it.  Just my own opinions. 
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Quinnf on April 02, 2009, 10:46:57 PM
I think we have to be careful that we don't read into what Bob says about the Redstone what we'd LIKE to believe.  That is, that it is a perfect engine.  A 100,000 hour engine like He Who Shall Remain Nameless puffs about.  I haven't seen one (yet), and Bob, being more terrier than bird dog, is naturally enthusiastic when he sees something new smelling of diesel scamper by.  The prudent thing to do is to wait and see.  I don't have one, and I don't expect ever to.  With two 6/1s that run fine I don't need anything more.  I'm happy to sit back and see what develops.  The engine might pan out to be better than the 'roids for running off-grid, or it might have its own set of problems.  It's too early to tell. 

Quinn
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: piperpilot3tk on April 02, 2009, 10:56:18 PM
Quote
If the engine is confirmed and does in fact live up to the reputation that is being pushed here, then I'm sure most people on this forum would eat a loss on the Listeriod just to have an engine of worthy of it's predicated reputation.    Hopefully it is,  but I ain't buying it.  Just my own opinions.  

You hit the nail on the head.  The problem is, even though the engine looks to be a quality unit, no one seems to have one. If someone does actually have one, and it was as good as it is made out to be, you would think that there would be some videos of it running or some updates on the set-up and operation of these engines.  IF there were even one or two confirmed, sucessfull running Redstones that were actually in operation I would consider buying one.  Given the lack of information and the super squirrel secret owners only forum for these engines I will have to pass for now and put my money on a listeroid.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: hotater on April 02, 2009, 11:17:21 PM
Does it make any sense to anyone that it takes hours and hours to build hours of experience?

Maybe Wilhelm (may his name be invoked appropriately) will pop up and say he bought one last month and can now affirm they last ten thousand hours.

I won't.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Doug on April 02, 2009, 11:17:52 PM
There is truth, and then there is what people will choose to beileve.
I never called you a liar Bob and I am not interested in selling engines from China or any other place...

Facts can be disputed and names can be dragged through the mud and unless you or eye are willing to back down and eat some of our own words nothing will be resolved by name calling.

So good luck with your new Chinese engines guys and I realy hope these are as good as you were saying in November  ;)
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: JohnF13 on April 03, 2009, 12:48:47 AM
O.K. boyz;

Tell you what I'll do.  I'm going to pull my AG 295 out of the engine shed and put a Redstone in its place.  I hope to have that done by next weekend, but I need to make a frame, carry on business and oh, yes, life sometimes intervenes.  Now, what do you want?  As this is a bigger engine I have no need to run it most days, but can use it on weekends when she-who-has-never-met-a-kilowatt-she-didn't-want-to-employ is home.  I really don't envision more than 20 hours a week and that is pushing it.  Remember I run off-grid and as such need working engines, so I have absolutely no time or interest to perform scientific grams-per-hour tests or anything like that.  What I will report is how the engine works and my impressions of it.  If any of you want to do more specific tests then you can get your collective asses down to my place and do your measurements.  The GPS coordinates are on my website.

Fair enough?
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: piperpilot3tk on April 03, 2009, 02:01:37 AM
Thank you, John. Now we may be getting somewhere. I look forward to seeing the results, and some video of it working!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: piperpilot3tk on April 03, 2009, 02:04:02 AM
Thank you, John. Now we may be getting somewhere. I look forward to seeing the results, and some video of it working!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 03, 2009, 02:08:59 AM
i ain't backin off of jackshit!

nope ain't gonna do it!

never ever,, ever...

now then i must go back and reread what i have posted, but i am pretty sure i have not stated that i think it is a perfect
engine without its faults,, to date i have never met such an engine no matter how much it costs or who made it.
the perfect engine does  not exist.

having said that there certainly are engine's that are better than others, and there are most certainly better engineered engines
than others, and it is without a doubt that there are engine's with vastly better QC.

i don't think i have been secretive about how i feel about any engine, everyone should know by now that i don't like the tophole fed
lister/oid rod brgs for one, i don't like cats 3126 oil cooler, and i could go on for pages but nobody cares one way or the other.

the thing is, basically in my opinion, the redstone design is a sound one from everything that i have seen.
i was initially very skeptical when i had heard that it was not a counterbalanced engine, that one feature was a non starter in my opinion.
when i found out it had a counterbalance shaft then i thought "well ok, lets take a closer look at this puppy"

upon closer inspection, looking at the prints, the parts list, pictures of all the parts, starting and hearing it run, i became a bunch more
optimistic about the engine.

like i said before this is really an apples to oranges comparison, the only thing the redstone shares with a big listeroid is that it burns diesel fuel.

quite frankly i don't understand all the fuss and negativity surrounding this engine, most especially from those that will likely never see one
up close and will never own one.

over the years i have seen many new engine's come to market, and have been pretty much on target with my assessment of what they will run like, what is likely to be a problem and whether they will be successful or not.

back in the late 70's detroit decided to get into the 4 stroke mid size engine game with the 8.2 V8
there was so much excitment over that engine it wasn't even funny,, it was called a fuel squeezer
the only thing it squeezed was money out the new owners pocket, and i told detroit that after seeing the first
prototype engine's at detroits training center.. they told me the same thing
"you are not an engineer, you are a mechanic, and therefore you don't know what you are talking about"

that engine turned out to be much worse than the old 5.7 diesel that most everyone learned to hate.

the bottom line is i have been around enough engine's over the last 40 years to have a feel for good design
and also a second sense for what is likely to be problematic design.

just like the boys that build race engine's, they can take a look at an engine and know up front whether it is
designed strong enough to warrant spending time on to develop.

or like most farmers they can look at a tractor and tell if the sheet metal is likely to crack and fall off in the first season,
no plastic is going to impress them.

same goes for heavy equipment operators, find one that has been around for 40 years and he can take a walk around
of a new piece of equipment and tell you what is likely to bend, break or fall off.

after looking over the redstone it is hard for me to imagine that there are any shortcomings in the design that will cause anywhere
near the grief some folks have had with listeroids, my god there are thousands of reports of broken timing gears, sand, leaking head gskts,
worn guides, non rotating lifters blah blah blah

not to say the lister was a bad design, but some of the listers are very poor copies of the original.

yes we shall see the Redstone coming online with more and more folks getting and working them.

i would bet a dollar to a dog turd that the problems will be a fraction of a percent of those reported by listeroid buyers.

and no they won't be perfect, but
it all comes down to picking your poison, buy a listeroid and know up front that there are many problems that must be addressed
before you start it, and many more you will be dealing with over time, or

buy a Redstone and at least have something that likely does not require a complete teardown, rework, refinish and refit
before you put it into service.

what is you time worth?

buy a 1400 dollar 6/1 and spend a couple hundred more dollars in replacement parts (with shipping) and what? 40 hours
labor to go through it? or spend ~2500 for a big twin and double the dollars in replacement parts and labor?

vs

buying a Redstone, fit it up right and put it to work

maybe it is because i have a very bad back? there is no way i want to pour a ton of concrete to mount an engine
that alone is enough difference to me, and likely many other older folks.

ok, i tell you what
anyone that wants a pair of petteroid twins, with w/pumps, fan and radiators, preban and in the crate let me know
i will part with them for a very good price and then put my money where my mouth is.
i will then buy a Redstone, fit it with either an st12, stc12 or st15 (i got them already) and put it through its paces.
it will be cradle mounted and will run as smooth as silk with no vibration transmitted to any adjoining structure.
i will dyno the living hell out of it, do whatever testing you guys want and invite anyone that wants to come over and witness
any testing.
and i will do it out of the crate with no take down for inspection till after all testing is complete, and likely won't even bother to do so
then.

i am just tired of reading all the bullcrap from those that have never seen or heard the engine run, never seen a print of the engine, or a parts list.

there are those that are so negative, and bring nothing to the table, no alternatives??

you see the problem i have with all this is based on what would a newbie think when he comes onto this board?
typically when one comes onto a new forum he takes notice of the post count and assumes a large number attributed to
an individual equates to that individual being some sort of expert in the subject matter, when clearly this is often not the case.

yes i too have a large post count, and sometime i am embarrassed of it. i try to post things that are hopefully helpful if not always
positive, and i do make an effort to not be negative about things i know little or nothing about. i don't expect anyone to take my word for
anything, nor should anyone take anyones word for anything.

what folks should do is read up on what is available and do some research, read what is posted and if it is negative read it carefully to find out why the poster is negative, conversely if there is a positive report, read it too carefully to learn if the reasoning is sound.

there is no reason why we can't have opposing views and oppinions, but we should be able to support our positions without going to blows.

i think i have been fair and supported why i think the redstone is a good engine, what i like about the design, and the QC
and have compared it honestly with the typical indian listeroid.

on the other hand there are those that take a negative view of the engine based on what? some secret handshake bullshit?

good grief i ain't special, if i want to know about something i do what i have to do to find what i want to know.
bearing in mind that a teaspoon of sugar goes alot further than a gallon of vinegar with most folks.

in other words, i don't go out of my way to poke suppliers in the eye and then expect them to provide  me with information.

good way to burn a bridge and then find oneself on the outside looking in.

ymmv

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: lowspeedlife on April 03, 2009, 03:14:48 AM
HEY! lay off my 5.7, ARP head studs & don't drag race 'em & they are great, i've gotten 530 miles from a 20 gallon tank in a full sized pontiac bonneville w/ power everything even running the a/c, so what if the tops of the head bolts kept poppin off like jumpin beans  :o ;D LOL.

      Scott R.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 03, 2009, 03:34:16 AM
oh the venerable 5.7 what an engine,

pales in comparison to the 8.2l detroit

couldn't keep head gskts so there fix was a field repair, drillout the blocks 15mm threads and hand tap 17mm
for bigger bolts, ya right. many engines blew all to hell and cost rebuilders lots of money in claims due to the damn head
bolts were too small, i too got bit once and only once with this one.

oh yes,, need to install new cam brgs,, what? they aren't presized like every other cam brg on the planet?
i have to take the block in for a line bore?  good grief!

oh yes, lest i forget the gearotor oil pump fitted into a bushing in the front of the block
don't mess with that bushing either,, else the block goes to a bridgeport to have it sized and located properly for
gear clearance, now that was rich!

base circle timeing?  detroit used timing picks for 50 years for the same damned injectors,, but nooooo
we gotta use a dial indicator and do the base circle dance? up under a firewall? what are they out of their minds.

yes and they smoked, hard to start, leaked oil like their ancestoral roots would dictate

what pieces of crappola they were.

and the odd thing was, was the fact that i being all of about 20 years old when i first saw the prototype engines, told the detroit
rep what was likely to fail on that engine. (ya, ya, kid you are a mechanic,, now go away)

bet he still remembers that conversation! :)

so yes, you don't have to go offshore to get some real crap.

we have built some real winners all by ourselves.

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: nobby on April 03, 2009, 04:39:14 AM
John all the best with the Mk 2 resto, as far as I know still ranked one of the most popular getaway cars, so much so that the Police started using them.  Only wish I could get to putting my Austin A40 pickup on the road or my DS come to that.

Bob interesting concept, never viewed myself as an import and I am not sure if I will ever quite live up to the Redneck description, I love a good peaty Scotch to much to start drinking Bourbon, although I do own a 4x4 (diesel suburban though not pickup) and once the kids get a wee bit older I am sure that a gun will reappear in my life.  As to the car this is a somewhat before my time however I am thinking Shelby Cobra which incidently would of been an English AC Chassis/body shipped to CA for Shelby to power and then would of been shipped back to race.  If this indeed is the car you are referring to then I suspect that part of the Brit admiration for it was based on it being partly British also.  GT40 also sprang to mind but they came later didn't they, however how could you not love the lines on that car.

Now on topic, seems to me that hype is being built on both sides about the Redstone, I am seeing phrases along the lines of 100,000 hour and be and end all etc from the sceptical side and to be quite honest I do not believe that the sellers of the units are touting that at all nor is Bob come to that.  What I am seeing is a move away by the sellers from the Blister and a new avenue of finding an engine that is built with better QC and design that will be of little if any issue out of the box and give a good lifespan.  This based somewhat on a frustration with the poor QC of Blisters and in all reality the tough times they had getting the Indian producers to improve things, seems to me it left them as suppliers with an inability to truly stand behind the product.  I would certainly feel that way.  I can speak from personal experience how frustrating it can be when as a supplier you find issues with a product and cannot get the manufacturer to realise this and step up and make a remedy to the situation.  Also the thought of as a supplier having to strip a unit down and clean/rebuild before you sell it just seems plain bum about face to me.

This is a small niche market and seems to me that as a seller there would need to be a wee bit of initial secrecy as they set themselves up and invest in a product that will have fairly minimal sales and cannot stand too much competition.  I myself am working on a product idea and am currently telling no one about it as there really is only room for one or two sellers of this product within the US, one needs to be somewhat secure and setup when finally going public in a situation like this.  I do not see any real secrecy now though specs are published by John and George is posting pictures, so what that they have their own owners forum big deal.  I will say this though it is off putting that all we have stateside is Joels email address and no real website/source of info of his own, we do have Georges website giving info.  However as a potential customer and a businessman I strongly suggest that he puts something info wise out there himself no info from the horses mouth does help to fuel this skepticism and suspicion.

Bottom line is the proof of the pudding......... looks like we have a couple of step up to the plate offers and so i am sure we will all be watching this space for results.

Cheers
Nobby

Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 03, 2009, 05:52:16 AM
1961 was the year, and it was Dan Gurney in a chevy powered by the new 409 cu/in v8

left the double overhead cam jag's way back in the dust whining like mad trying to figure out what just about
inhaled them.

from reports of the time, the brit fan's loved the 409 and it roar could be heard coming from a long long ways.

somewhere i have a bunch of pictures taken of that car in action, coming over rises airborne

bet that was a blast to see

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: oliver90owner on April 04, 2009, 02:04:28 AM
May be time just to look at where this thread is headed and what has been hidden or lost in the individual postings.

Here are a few bits gleaned which may not be intended to cloud the issue, but might do in some cases.

the redstones piston speed is right in the hunt with other slowspeed diesel engines, most notably at peak torque, even though the rpm is higher than the 6/1. The copmparison with a 6/1 is inapproprite here.  The redstone operates at twice, or more, than the 6/1 (but the stroke is only slightly less than the Lister).


No overhung weight Crank may be comparitively longer on a Lister but the flywheels cannot be much closer to the bearings, especially the sleeve type.

remove and decarbon its head in half the time it would take to remove one lister gib key.  No particular comparison here.  You don't need to remove a gib key to decarbonise a 6/1!!

and it don't have gib keys! Gib keys are more repairable than a tapered shaft should  the need arise.  The Blackstone engines had gib keys.  Ok, perhaps a modern day method, progress.

no doubt that the big end brg is getting more than adequate lubrication  and seems to be sufficient If there is no doubt, OK, but not yet proven it seems.  If designed properly there woud be adequate oil supply at minimum speed - but the pump may be geared for 1100 RPM minimum operation, so may need mods to run lower speeds, especially for engines after long service.

on the drive side referring to size of bearing for axial thrust, but does that mean it can only be used to drive from one side?

It has a piston cooler  Should it need one?  Naturally aspirated, not that high specific power or is there a piston temperature issue?

it has a water pump and reverse flow cooling system (which is a plus in my opinion),  Answers the question re doing away with the water pump and thermo-syphoning.  Obvious not a possibility - no can do,  not within the warrantee anyhow.

as would installing a full pressure lube oil filter Now that is a surprise that there is not one on a modern engine design.  Does it have a bypass filter, any filtration?  Or does it recommend non-detergent oil?  I reckon the engine will be marketed with some sort of filtration.

future will tell us if we can make  reliability similar  Top notch obviously not yet proven but honesty, not like some engine suppliers, is a good thing in a supplier, particularly when all these questions are being asked before it is openly available to all in the marketplace.

This looks to be a very nicely made piston  Then later we find it is a cast aluminium piston, not a forged product, so initial comment was more from an aesthetic viewpoint, not an engineering one?

Collectively, we may have enough influence to make the Redstone exactly what we want it to be I read that as 'it is not yet exactly right, but..'.  That is probably the reason for the testing/appraisal etc that is going on before it comes to the open market.

We also found that the engines were as easy, or even easier, to work on than the Listeroids Elsewhere there is a slightly conflicting remark.  But so what?  If you don't need to work on it often, does that really matter?  A decent workshop manual would be a plus!


These were a few of the takes that I read with care, or noticed, on re-reading the thread (avoiding the irrelevant comments from some and the digressions of several, from the relevant subject) and the meagre, but appetite whetting, offerings elsewhere, and my thought s on them.

My overall view is yes, it was modelled on the Blackstone series engines; yes it is new and unproven as yet in this form (although it may be a design which has been marketed in China for some time); similarity ends with half the weight, twice the speed and much higher specific power output, oversquare design; it has no option for anything other than an aluminium piston at those engine revs; reverse flow cooling system (probably more efficient but no KISS there).

Would I buy one?  No, not if my JP is any good - and I would look around for another Blacksone (if it isn't, and I needed one).  I might be lucky that the local museum has lots of Blackstone engine information and there are still enough people round town to enquire of, if need be. 

That does not reflect on the new engine, just my situation.  Living very close to two very well respected names in the power generation industry (Blacksones and Newage Engineering) probably means I am spoiled for choice.
 
Some won't like the engine because it doesn't look like an antique - just a  functional prime mover.

I can undestand some being wary - from reports of some tractor imports with mega failings, for instance, I would be.  Anyone who trusts cheap chinese bearings needs there head testing is my view and Chinese bearings do have a poor reputation.  However if they are specc'ed correctly they will be as good as any other.  I would hope all the bearings in this new engine are premium ones.  If they are not they will be likely to fail prematurely.

I would add that it is not Chinese junk that is exported to us all; it is the importers who spec the quality and joe public who buys that junk that those cheap importers pass on.  For a good quality product you simply pay extra.

I believe that the 20 engines is all about testing and appraisal.  Much better to do the dirty washing in private and present a reliable product when it is ready and not before.  As it is a Chinese product I would expect there to be some issues. 

These need not be insurmountable but an engine released for operation/general sale, before it is fully appraised and followed by early reports of premature failures would kill the project, and severely dent the good reputation of the suppliers. 

I think they are right in what they are doing and everyone should respect that and be patient.  If it as as good as predicted by Bob, it will find a niche in the market.

to help develop our version further.  Sums it fairly well. 

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: compig on April 04, 2009, 12:03:37 PM
Haven't been reading this thread very often , so what happens , talk of evocative cars thats what !!  Nobby , you have a DS , lucky man , those things are uber cool !!  GT40 , one of the all time best looking cars ever , lets not forget that Ford needed Lola to create it !!  AC Cobra , my all time favourite real world car as I will probably never be able to have a Ferrari 250 LM , P4 , Bugatti Type 35B , Porsche 917 or Alfa Monza !! The Cobra also needed a Brit company for it to materialise and was then responsible for our 70 MPH motorway speed limit !!  Gotta love V8's though , in the American form of 16 valve , pushrod format it must be the best power package ever designed ! Personally speaking though , the straight 8 is the hair prickler !!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: NoSpark on April 04, 2009, 12:51:47 PM
Some won't like the engine because it doesn't look like an antique - just a  functional prime mover.

Regards, RAB

I think that's a bigger factor than some of you guys realize. With a lister(oid) you get a prime mover and an engine that commands attention 8). I already had a generator with a Tecumseh engine and I didn't think it looked that cool :).
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: GuyFawkes on April 04, 2009, 01:11:14 PM

I can undestand some being wary - from reports of some tractor imports with mega failings, for instance, I would be.  Anyone who trusts cheap chinese bearings needs there head testing is my view and Chinese bearings do have a poor reputation.  However if they are specc'ed correctly they will be as good as any other.  I would hope all the bearings in this new engine are premium ones.  If they are not they will be likely to fail prematurely.


Regards, RAB

addressed to the subject in general, not rab.

There is an issue here, it is a fundamental issue, and the clue is you trip over it buying camera lenses, you trip over it buying hacksaw blades, you trip over it buying microphones, you trip over it buying li-on batteries, you trip over it buying spanners, and you trip over it buying stationary engines, and stationary engine spare.

It is common to all these things, because it is a universal truth.

"cheap" and "quality" and "new"

pick any two

as long as you have a hole in your ass you will not be able to buy cheap new quality, not even by exporting the pain and suffering of 50 cents a day labour, if these engines are cheap then they aren't quality, end of story.

Lister Dursley "assembly line" fitters cost a million times more per hour / per engine than vindaloo fitters, and a PART of that inequality was down to the skill differences, yeah, you can get very skilled indian / chinese / asian turners and fitters, very very skilled, but for the same cheap / quality / new reasons, they won't be working at the vindaloo engine factory for 3 cups of rice an hour.

Lister fitters were all skilled and experienced artisans, most of them were multi-skilled artisans, you cannot do anything but improve a good mechanic / fitter / engineer by teaching him at the side of a turner, and then at the side of a boilermaker, and then at the side of a foundryman...

YES, you can pick less than two out of cheap / quality / new, you can pay a lot of money for crap, but you can never buy quality new for anything other than a lot of money.

what do you call someone who uses generic condoms?

a cheap fucker.

that is what everyone on here is, a cheap fucker, and the only way cheap fuckers can ever get their hands on quality is by buying old, not new.

howls of rage from all the cheap fuckers who insists they can get a 2,000 dollar whore for 20 and change.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: compig on April 04, 2009, 02:13:31 PM
Why be so offensive GF , can't you make your point politely ? Here's a question for you , if Lister's were still in production , would you still buy a new say 8/1 at say £4000 ? Possibly even more , I am being notional on the price but i reckon it would be at least that.
The US members on here would certainly buy genuine old Listers if they find a convenient , reliable and reasonably priced method of shipping from the UK , in lieu of that they buy Listeroids. Not because they are cheap muckers !!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: GuyFawkes on April 04, 2009, 03:14:52 PM
Why be so offensive GF , can't you make your point politely ? Here's a question for you , if Lister's were still in production , would you still buy a new say 8/1 at say £4000 ? Possibly even more , I am being notional on the price but i reckon it would be at least that.
The US members on here would certainly buy genuine old Listers if they find a convenient , reliable and reasonably priced method of shipping from the UK , in lieu of that they buy Listeroids. Not because they are cheap muckers !!

One man's truth is another man's offence.

I worked it out properly a few years ago and a start-o-matic 6/1 came out at baseline Ford Escort (new) money.

I am glad for you that you think the members of thus forum are not cheap fucks, it must be nice to imagine our Hawaiian member on his yacht (book em dano) and our midwest members on their "allotments the size of surrey" and our canadian members with front lawns that take 2 days to drive over.

Fact is if anyone on here isn't a cheap fuck then they may have signed up but they have never posted.

Here is a clue, if you even ask what airfreight and installation within 48 hours is extra on top of the ticket price, you are a cheap fuck.

I'm cornish, so even the cheap fucks on here can shake their heads and point at me ans say "that guy is a cheap fuck" and be safe from hypocricy.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: AdeV73 on April 04, 2009, 09:15:42 PM

what do you call someone who uses generic condoms?


Dad?

Have to agree with the quality | price | new triangle; being fortunate & in the UK, I can sacrifice "new" & get quality at a bargain price.

And yes, I am a cheap fucker. Dunno where I'd go to get a new, high-quality, slow-running diesel generator which will last another 50 years like I'm sure my 59(!) year old S-o-M will though - any ideas?
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: GuyFawkes on April 04, 2009, 09:50:25 PM


And yes, I am a cheap fucker. Dunno where I'd go to get a new, high-quality, slow-running diesel generator which will last another 50 years like I'm sure my 59(!) year old S-o-M will though - any ideas?

#1 - 650 RPM isn't slow running, it is "medium speed"

#2 - building / converting the diesel engine side is actually not that much of a challenge, the difficulty will be in sourcing / building the gen head.

#3 - start-o-matics cost as much as light cars, back when light cars were very rare things indeed, they eventually came down to the price of light cars when light cars were ommon, £10k in today's money.

I've got an unmolested 6/1 2.5 kva start-o-matic out back, for 10k you can have it and I will refurb it literally better than new, in any colour you like, and thow in a remote pan / tilt / zoom webcam and control panel, browser operated.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: AdeV73 on April 04, 2009, 11:08:32 PM

for 10k you can have it and I will refurb it literally better than new


Only if I get to name the currency...

Quote

#1 - 650 RPM isn't slow running, it is "medium speed"


Fair comment, but I really don't have the room for a "proper" slow-speed (100-200rpm) diesel. Nor the need, frankly.

Quote

#2 - building / converting the diesel engine side is actually not that much of a challenge, the difficulty will be in sourcing / building the gen head.


Erm, OK. Seriously, who's engine would you use. To be new, it would have to be contemporary. We're looking for somewhere between 5 and 10 HP, or in that ballpark, at around 600-800rpm. My diesel experience is limited (I hate it as a road fuel), but I can't - off the top of my head - think of an engine that fits. 'course, it could be that my desires are outmoded in this throwaway world. After all, a 500cc screamer will produce (lots!) more than 10hp. For a week.

Quote

#3 - start-o-matics cost as much as light cars, back when light cars were very rare things indeed, they eventually came down to the price of light cars when light cars were ommon, £10k in today's money.


I've not seen the price of a new (in the 1950s, say) start-o-matic anywhere. I'd love to know what it cost new.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: compig on April 04, 2009, 11:25:19 PM


I've got an unmolested 6/1 2.5 kva start-o-matic out back, for 10k you can have it and I will refurb it literally better than new, in any colour you like, and thow in a remote pan / tilt / zoom webcam and control panel, browser operated.

Would that come with a 100,000 hour warranty ?!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: GuyFawkes on April 04, 2009, 11:35:32 PM
2.5 kW was 290 quid
4.5 kW was 447 quid
7.5 kW was 534 quid and 10 bob

all prices less 5% discount for cash, all LSD money of course

carriage paid to nearest railway station and one visit by one works trained engineer within the first 12 months included.

Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: GuyFawkes on April 04, 2009, 11:37:58 PM


I've got an unmolested 6/1 2.5 kva start-o-matic out back, for 10k you can have it and I will refurb it literally better than new, in any colour you like, and thow in a remote pan / tilt / zoom webcam and control panel, browser operated.

Would that come with a 100,000 hour warranty ?!

no, I'd make no such warranty, you might walk around all day with valve paste on one hand and an angle grinder in the other.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: compig on April 04, 2009, 11:50:08 PM
2.5 kW was 290 quid
4.5 kW was 447 quid
7.5 kW was 534 quid and 10 bob

all prices less 5% discount for cash, all LSD money of course

carriage paid to nearest railway station and one visit by one works trained engineer within the first 12 months included.



What year (s) ?
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: AdeV73 on April 04, 2009, 11:51:23 PM
2.5 kW was 290 quid
4.5 kW was 447 quid
7.5 kW was 534 quid and 10 bob

all prices less 5% discount for cash, all LSD money of course

carriage paid to nearest railway station and one visit by one works trained engineer within the first 12 months included.


So... £7.5K, £10.8K and £13k respectively, in today's (well, 2006's) money. That's assuming a 1950 date, using this website (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/historic-inflation-calculator) to calculate it.

The high inflation in some of the intervening (and previous) years will have a big effect on the price in today's money....
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: compig on April 04, 2009, 11:53:00 PM


I've got an unmolested 6/1 2.5 kva start-o-matic out back, for 10k you can have it and I will refurb it literally better than new, in any colour you like, and thow in a remote pan / tilt / zoom webcam and control panel, browser operated.

Would that come with a 100,000 hour warranty ?!

no, I'd make no such warranty, you might walk around all day with valve paste on one hand and an angle grinder in the other.

No deal then !! LOL !!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: GuyFawkes on April 04, 2009, 11:59:09 PM
2.5 kW was 290 quid
4.5 kW was 447 quid
7.5 kW was 534 quid and 10 bob

all prices less 5% discount for cash, all LSD money of course

carriage paid to nearest railway station and one visit by one works trained engineer within the first 12 months included.


So... £7.5K, £10.8K and £13k respectively, in today's (well, 2006's) money. That's assuming a 1950 date, using this website (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/historic-inflation-calculator) to calculate it.

The high inflation in some of the intervening (and previous) years will have a big effect on the price in today's money....


yup, and in a related thing, I think it was you talking about 60hz from a start-o-matic

the 2.5 kW were all belt coupled 6/1s, the 4.5 and 7.5 kW were all direct coupled freedom singles or twins respectively.

there was no 50 or 60 hz alternator, alternator was just spun at 1500 or 1800 as erequired, and set for 220-240 vac or 110 vac as required.

in the case of the 2.5 kW the 6/1 always ran at 650 rpm, just used a smaller alternator pulley for 60 hz

in the case of direct coupled just spin the motor at 1800
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: compig on April 05, 2009, 12:10:41 AM
The 8/1 was 4.5 KW of course. How was the alternator set to 110 V when run at 1800 RPM for 60HZ  ?
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: AdeV73 on April 05, 2009, 12:30:25 AM

The 8/1 was 4.5 KW of course. How was the alternator set to 110 V when run at 1800 RPM for 60HZ  ?


Although my knowledge of alternator theroy is limited (in the extreme), I'd guess it's a combination of the excitation current & the number of windings employed.

To switch to transformers for a moment, a 120-0-120 transformer has "a centre tap" - at 0v relative to 120v either side of it; so you can either get 240v by connecting to the lead at each end (leaving the centre tap disconnected), or 120v by connecting to either end lead & the centre tap. An alternator is pretty similar to a transformer in this respect; so, if there's a centre tap on the alternator's output windings, you can get 1/2 volts using it as one of the terminals.

The excitation current thing I've not looked at (& therefore not understood), I'm guessing it varies the strength of the electromagnet which, in turn, increased the induced current in the windings; but that is just a guess...

Assuming all of the above is OK: You'd increase the speed of the alternator to achieve 60hz, and reduce the excitation current to bring the voltage back down to 240, and a centre tap to take out 120v: OR, just reduce the excitation current to the level where you're getting 120v in the whole winding.

That's how I'd do it anyway.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: compig on April 05, 2009, 12:34:32 AM
Was wondering if the provision for adjustment was made in the control box of if it was inside the alternator.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: jtodd on April 05, 2009, 02:27:25 AM

A few things:

   - The Redstone looks interesting.  I'll side with the "unproven" crowd, but I'm interested in seeing it proven and I consider myself an optimistic sceptic.

   - I agree that at first blush (at least, at my first looking) there seems to be only basic information available about the engine.  In fact, I have no idea how much they cost - I haven't found any web pages that seem to mention it.  Maybe I missed it in this thread?  Anyway, more information is always better.  Pictures speak louder than words.  Video speaks louder than pictures.  One can avoid rust by immediately drying wet metal; the same technique is true with new products.  Immediate and complete data about new products prevents corrosion of customer base, as we see happening here.  Even if it's not available for sale, more data is better than no data.

   - I'll help with anyone who wants to put their YouTube where their mouth is.  I'm in Portland (close to Joel; I've met him, and I've also driven up to meet George) and I'd be happy to videotape/photograph any unpacking/initial installation/first run tests with one of the engines.  I'm not going to bother to contact either Joel or George directly; hopefully they'll find this post if they're interested.  I'm available on some weekends.


PS: GuyFawkes asked about cheapskates. I'm not one.  Being "cheap" is not the same as being wise with money spent.  I'm happy to spend money up front if I know it makes my life less expensive or brings more "good" in the long run.  This is why I've got the last US-imported Dursley 12/2, and all the other components of my engine system are stainless, galvanized, or coated with plastic truck bed liner.

JT

Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: lowspeedlife on April 05, 2009, 03:06:25 AM
Jtodd, though i can't find it now i'm pretty positive i read in this thread the price of $2495.00 including spares & a flywheel puller, but don't remeber if that was U.S. or Canadian. If i am wrong please someone correct me.


   SR.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Doug on April 05, 2009, 05:41:36 AM
If you are not saying HOLY SHIT for an unknown Chinese engine at the price well I dunno what to say.

For that money a used and tottaly rebuilt Onan DJA is affordable and its a known bullit proof engine, not to mention the US built Lister CD I saw this evening right here
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: oliver90owner on April 05, 2009, 07:43:58 AM
If you are not saying HOLY SHIT for an unknown Chinese engine at the price

Doug,

You may be right, you may be wrong.

As stated the price reflects the cost of the 'oid twins and it is not at this present time suggesting it will be good to replace a 6/1 - just giving a lot of people hope that it might possibly run OK lower down the rev range with modifications.  I am doubting that and I have given my reasons, but I may be proved wrong, who knows?  I have not said it will not and await a further trickle of information.

Depends on the guarantee  as well.  That has to be factored into the cost base.  It might include the cost of a complete set of SKF bearings, who knows?

I know that cheap Chinese diesel gensets are available at much less than that price.  Personally, I would much prefer to stay with my 3 1/2 kVA Hatz diesel screamer at 3000rpm than change for a shiny new cheapo cr*p heap that may not last long and has only a 'throw-away and buy another' repair philosophy.  The fact is, it would be cheaper to throw it away than have it repaired by an engineer. They are cheaper to be 'built' in China and shipped half way round the world than open up and repair!

I see a 5 1/2 continuous rated diesel genset for 1400 dollars (delivered) just from the first few hits on Google.  Says it will produce near 45kWh using 4 gallons of fuel in 8 hours.  Low noise, all the extras, including electric start.   Doesn't say how long before it is worn out.

I would think the price quoted for the Redstone is, like the information available, likely to change.  If it dropped enough it sounds like even you might change your tune.  How cheap would it need to be, for you to test one?

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 05, 2009, 12:10:51 PM
RAB

don't get him started with a redstone, he still hasn't reported back anything from his petteroid other than
it was the biggest piece of crap he ever saw!

which was not the case in my opinion :)

all:

i still don't understand all the negativity over the redstone

the engine is priced very competitive to any listeroid in around the 20hp class

so it comes down to some pretty simple thinking in my opinion

buy a listeroid and be assured that you will need to tear it down to the last bolt, and rebuild it
pour a ton of concrete, and then spend a not insignificant amount of time tinkering with it, repairing, and rebuilding it
over its lifetime, oh yes and hand cranking it, or...

at least take a look at the Redstone, and rationally analize the design.

all the redstone is, is another option, an option that many are beginning to feel fits their specific needs better than a listeroid.

i suspect when the chips are down, the redstone will find its biggest following with those that live offgrid and need dependable power
the cheap sucker/hobbiest will still seek out the cheapest 6/1 he can find, or self import a petteroid, and forever bitch about it not being
quite right, all the while being all puckered up with sour grapes over any other engine that comes along.

interesting to me at least is

how many people think the redstone is a brand new engine with no history, who in their right mind thinks this is a new engine and as such
could have been prototyped, put into manufacture, shipped and now available for sale at around 2 grand? The first dozen of such an engine would likely cost 10x that amount of money.

what makes anyone think that these engines have not been around for a very long time doing hard work in the interior of china, likely not on a 3 wheel tractor, but maybe pumping water, oil or god knows what?

i have been thinking back, and for the life of me, i don't recall very many horror stories relating to water cooled chinese diesels
like the singles we use here (excluding any possible issues with tractor mounted units)

i would suspect that for every changfa that has had a serious problem there are a hundred 6/1 listeroids reported with worse issues.

but noooo, we will continue to talk smack about the chinese piece of crap enigne's, all the while the little chinese piece of crap engines keep
right on doing what they do best,, that being running.

of the two countries and the QC issues, which would a thinking man choose to try out a different engine from?

china has proven to be able to build engine's that do what they are advertised and intended to do, while india has proven only that
they can build cast iron doorstops with any consistancy that just so happen to look like a lister if you squint your eyes just right.

like it or not, this engine the redstone is here to stay, it will fill its niche in the market, and displace the listeroid in the 20hp class
and nudge into lower hp classes as well as higher hp classes .

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Kurt802 on April 05, 2009, 03:12:06 PM
The Redstone looks like the JSD1800D manufactured by Shandong New Juling Group in China.
They manufacture several dual flywheel horizontal diesel engines.  I would like the JSD3200 at 42hp ;D
The rest of the world has 'em
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: lowspeedlife on April 05, 2009, 04:40:03 PM
Watch out for that shandong new juling site, my firewall keeps telling me it's attempting to down load several viruses when i was on line there!!!! looks like it is a chinese government site by the address.


    SR.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: oliver90owner on April 06, 2009, 09:18:46 AM
I was perusing the sites and came up with some conflicting powers, RPMs, etc.

Costs seem reasonable considering unit costs, transportation, import costs, internal shipping, guarenty or warantee considerations, and the Utterpower site claiming a gallon(US) savings on fuel per 8 hour running......should make it a winner in the end, if reliability can be demonstrated.  Just takes time for these things to happen unless you use a computer prediction.....

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 06, 2009, 05:08:55 PM
at that rate of fuel savings, if one had to buy the fuel from the pump
even at todays rates it would take only about 3 years to payoff the redstone in fuel savings alone.
and if diesel goes up in price to what it was last summer around here? it would take under a year and a half
for it to pay for itself.

yup seems pretty interesting to me

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: oliver90owner on April 09, 2009, 09:17:28 AM
Kind of quiet on this one for a couple of days, so I thought perhaps I would up-date on my Blackstone.

Not quite a JP. :(  Turned out to be a spring injection 10HP hopper cooled (with cover - so could easily be plumbed in to an external heat exchanger) of 6 1/2 inch bore,  new in 1934, supplied to Stamford Waterworks (info gratefully received from MichaelStamford). :) 

Needs a bit of work - there is no big end. >:(  It has been completely removed, so will need a 'new' one to be 'obtained' or made.  A few parts missing, but looks as though it will be a runner in the longer term.

10 horses at less than 600RPM (could be 535, 565 or 585 on the name plate).  Total loss oiler (madison kipp type with 4 outlets) although the oil in the oiler looked as though it had been recycled from the crankcase!).

So any comparisons with the Redstone look as though they may well be ended.  This one is  more like a Lister, only on its side and slower running.  Built like the proverbial brick bog. About a 3 inch crankpin and huge curved-spoke flywheels.

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: piperpilot3tk on April 11, 2009, 09:02:14 PM
JohnF13, did you get the redstone up and running yet?  I cant wait to hear and see the results.  When you do get it online we definately need video!!!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: oliver90owner on April 11, 2009, 10:10:03 PM
piperpilot3tk,

If you look at the Utterpower site, they have been running their off grid test unit one for some time.

http://utterpower.com/Redstone.htm

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: piperpilot3tk on April 12, 2009, 03:08:38 AM
We all have read the blurb on the utterpower site about the Redstone. All of the stuff on the utterpower site pertaining to the Redstone engine is content free information.  We will just have to wait for the truth to come out.  Too bad we dont already know because I will be ordering a listeroid next week and I would have loved to see some first hand operational reports of this engine. ::)
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: SHIPCHIEF on April 12, 2009, 06:31:04 AM
The failing Listeroid industry, and falling dollar make the Redstone replacement both easy and difficult.
1) The Redstone is more powerful than most Listeroids, so it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.
2) The falling Dollar makes over seas purchases less of a good deal than when we were buying Listeroids.
3) Chinese diesels are getting better as time passes, Indian Listeroids are not.
4) US made engines in this catagory are expensive or antique..(or both)
Conclusion: The replacement for my Listeroid will not be a Listeroid. The Redstone is very attractive, and I've seen George's in person.
I'm not in the market for an engine right now, but after the Listeroid bug was satiated and the Listeroid completely rebuilt, I have a good standby generator that can power my all electric house. Starting NOW, I would go with the Redstone. It's just beter.
A one cylinder direct injection engine has to use less fuel than a 2 cylinder IDI engine. It just makes sense.
The Redstone has good family geneology, and is a generation newer and better than the Lister CS. Like an overbuilt Changfa?
But I must remember that I wanted a Listeroid twin with the exposed pushrods etc, and I still get a kick out of it. When I build that mythical powerhouse....it will only have one. The second engine will be something else. Maybe a Redstone.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: JohnF13 on April 16, 2009, 01:12:24 AM
Managed to get back to this job today, as usual, life intervened and stole my time.  Filled the Redstone up with oil (12 litres!), attached a fuel line and put some water in the head space.  Rolled the engine over a couple of times by hand until I heard the injector "creak" then hit the starter key.  Two revolutions and she was running.  MUCH quieter than a Changfa and pretty smooth to boot.  As soon as I get a frame fabbed up I'll post some pics and hopefully a video.

John F. 
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 16, 2009, 04:09:15 AM
:)



eee...eee.... eeeee

(bad monkey!)

:)

come on John, i know you had to have gotten major wood seeing and hearing that beast for the first time!

oh ya,, and how much concrete to mount it?

answer: maybe a half bag of grout to level the frame to the floor!

yup, the big listeroids days are numbered!

you might as well just put your twins up for sale, they will never be used again after you get the redstone fitted.

probably want to do that before you release a video of the redstone as well, the value of the listeroids will certainly go
down after the video release.

:)

bob g

Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Stan on April 16, 2009, 04:34:49 AM
Can't we see the video of the redstone running without a frame on a bare dirt floor with a glass of wine on top running, with you in bare feet!  (remember that one John?)
Stan
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: lowspeedlife on April 25, 2009, 12:00:57 AM
Exellent! would love to see some good pictures of the internals of one of these! be careful though, you could get yourself in trouble for divulging "trade secrets"  ::)

   Scott R.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Quinnf on April 25, 2009, 06:30:11 PM
. . . all of which is an excellent reason to tell your friend to pound sand when he shows up.  Anytime you buy something, you're screwing yourself and your supplier if you trash his reputation on a public forum before giving him a chance to make it right. 

q.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Quinnf on April 25, 2009, 07:52:00 PM
You wrote:

if this engine dissapoints this guy in any way, i am sure he will register here,introduce himself and you will get the complete dish on the subject.


What are we supposed to think when we read that?  I'm just saying give the vendor a chance to make it right if it isn't so out of the box.  Then report on it, if you like. 

There are some folks who have made a hobby of trashing anyone who is trying to bring engines into the U.S. and sell them at a small profit.  In one case that I'm aware of, a customer griped about the paint job of a just out of the box 'roid, and then demanded the vendor take the engine back at his expense because a seam in the casting was visible beneath the paint. 

q.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 25, 2009, 08:39:01 PM
Jens:

there is a lot more to the story!!!

you simply would not believe what some folks will complain about, and yes there are those
that will see a casting parting line and figure it for a weak spot or a crack, when the reality is
it is just how the casting core halves  are mated.

quite frankly there are some folks that are just too stupid to breathe on their own, and the darwin
awards are given out with some regularity.

there is nothing wrong with being ignorant but willing to learn, but quite another to be stupid and unwilling to learn.

recently i came to CMD's defense on a similar point,

i think Quinn has it just right,
buy the engine if you like, make sure you know what you are doing to put it to work, and if there is a problem
talk to your vendor and give him an opportunity to make good!

or alternatively i guess one could simply just go buy the engine, oil it, water it and cob together whatever
and then sit back drinking moonshine and wait for something to happen,, then come back to the forrum
and tell the world how your vendor fucked you?

there is a level of personal responsiblity when working with any equipment, i realize that is something in short supply
these days.

we just don't need to promote that lack of "personal responsibility" in my opinion.

(i know i don't want too)

:)

bob g

Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: piperpilot3tk on April 26, 2009, 02:14:04 AM
Quote
you simply would not believe what some folks will complain about, and yes there are those
that will see a casting parting line and figure it for a weak spot or a crack, when the reality is
it is just how the casting core halves  are mated.

quite frankly there are some folks that are just too stupid to breathe on their own, and the darwin
awards are given out with some regularity.

there is nothing wrong with being ignorant but willing to learn, but quite another to be stupid and unwilling to learn.

recently i came to CMD's defense on a similar point,
 
Bob I hope that you are not referring to the stuff you stirred with me, trying to say that I wanted to give CMD a bad name just because I want to do a teardown inspection on my new engine and take some pics of it.  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX



MODIFIED BY MOD  NO NEED FOR THAT LANGUAGE OR PERSONAL ATTACK

Please keep things to facts and not Personal attacks
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: oliver90owner on April 26, 2009, 07:44:24 AM
You crossed the line

I entirely agree with that.

I looked back and I see you said "you just about summed it up with the way the wife feels....but she will get over it some day.......I fully intend to document my teardown inspection. I will create an album and add all my pictures when I get started."

OK we now understand you are getting your ears rasped by yours, AND you said "ALL my pictures".

I could only understand that to mean what it said and therefore Bob was absolutely right to raise the point he made.

That said, he may not have been referring to that particular item at all, in his post above.  That said, what exactly are you going to do if you were to find a gob of sand in your engine and some of it in the big end bearing already?  Not going to take a picture? Your standards may have been aviation standards, who knew until you actually elucidated a little on the subject?  Maybe you were not being honest when you said all your pictures, maybe it was a post not quite thought through properly.  It happens.  Quite a lot (see above).

So now you have mouthed off in open forum, perhaps the correct thing to do is apologise on the open forum.  Second thoughts, not 'perhaps'.

RAB
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: t19 on April 26, 2009, 02:01:05 PM
Gentlemen
I have edited the offending part out of the post.

Lets keep the Tone of our talks to a certain civilized level, and not coloured with profanity and personal attacks.

Piper was well within his rights to comment on the state of his motor

Bob, your comment about stupid people is a little over the line, this forum has DYI's like yourself and those that want to learn.

 Lets keep that in mind when posting, this place should be welcoming for the newbies to this technology, its the only way to keep it alive and well
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: lowspeedlife on April 26, 2009, 02:28:23 PM
I would have to agree with Jens here, reading words printed on a page leaves out facial expressions & the way the words are spoken, leading to misinterpretation.

quote Bob g
i would hope you would use some discretion, before you air dirty laundry

assuming there will likely be something not up to your standards

and we all know how a camera can make a pimple into a flaming full on wart, with hair and all!

this should prove interesting

bob g
end quote

Bob assumed this was being done to berate CMD though this was never said or implyed.


quite frankly there are some folks that are just too stupid to breathe on their own, and the darwin
awards are given out with some regularity.

there is nothing wrong with being ignorant but willing to learn, but quite another to be stupid and unwilling to learn.

recently i came to CMD's defense on a similar point,

bob g



Considering thier recent conversation I would have taken this as a jab at me If i were piper.

Don't get me wrong I like Bob, & believe he has everyones best intrests at heart here. (except maybe Doug) that was a joke, for those without a sense of humor, but I use it to show how it could easily be construed otherwise.
 
 
Quote
quote from piperpilot3tk
Bob I hope that you are not referring to the stuff you stirred with me, trying to say that I wanted to give CMD a bad name just because I want to do a teardown inspection on my new engine and take some pics of it.  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

[/quote
This was altered before i quoted it , so the relevent points are no longer there but piper shouldn't have responded this way.

Phil at CMD has repeatedly stated on this forum that his engines do not have sand & other issues that most all listeroids have, He & I had this very conversation just before the forum went down last week. So i feel that pipers "tear down inspection" is fully warranted & I for one am interested in what he will find. (no offense Phil)

So I think we should all just take a step back, take a deep breath & move on, shall we?

  Scott R.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: piperpilot3tk on April 26, 2009, 07:06:20 PM
I cannot understand how buying a new indian listeroid and wanting to perform a teardown inspection to ensure all is well prior to putting it to work has so many people upset !  I also have never seen another web forum where one or two members repeatedly instigate arguments, talk out of both sides of their mouth, and pass judgment on other peoples intelligence and are allowed to hang around. ???   
Quote
If anyone was personal gripes about someone here just send them a private message and keep it off the thread.

Lets get back on track and hear about positive things.
  I fully agree and I am sorry for falling in the trap and allowing myself to stoop to that level.

As far as my teardown inspection goes, I am not doing it for any other reason than because I want to make sure my investment will run for many years, especially when I most need it.  I have never been the type to make photo galleries and threads to document the numerous major projects, rebuilds and restorations that I have completed.  This time around I thought it would be a fun thing to do given the cool factor a listeroid has.  Given the heart ache that many of you have towards me "documenting" my inspection, I am starting to have second thoughts.  I will do the inspection, but I may keep all the pictures and particulars that I learn in the process to myself.  I bought this particular brand engine because after doing a lot of reading and talking to people I think it is the best assembled Indian engine on the market at this time.  Notice I said "best assembled" I know that most all of the listeroid parts are made by one or two small groups of founders and craftsman.  If any of you were paying attention awhile back you will remember that I wanted to import some Powerline engine, this is because a few good friends and a few of my coworkers wanted to purchase some engines.  If we had imported a container full of engines we could have saved enough money to make it worth while.  Given the recent economic disaster (especially now that it has hit us) everyone else backed out, I than decided to buy a Powerline engine from CMD.  I DO NOT under any circumstance expect my Powerline engine to be perfect (hence the inspection), and nobody, including Phil, ever said it would be.  Phil and CMD say that their engines will be ready to run out of the crate, and that they will not destroy themselves while running during the warranty period; if you do have a problem they WILL make it good.  To me it was worth the $300.00 to $500.00 extra dollars to start out with an engine that has better features (like cast valve cover, CBW crank, oil filter, modern fuel filter, well built leak free fuel tank) than some of the other engine that are currently offered.  The fact that I bought an engine from Phil is just happenstance, having said that, given the level of support he has shown so far I would buy 10 more from him if I had a need for them.  All of this is just my personal opinion and I certainly do not want to upset any of you guys who are vendors and have engines to sell.  I am sure there are other vendors who sell good products and have good customer service and I am not trying to discount anyone or any particular brand.  I feel like I have mad the right decision, I was not hoping for the best, but I was fearful of the worst, just look at this guys engine   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D47ulHDSns.  I ended up getting a good one!
I hope this "clears things up" for some of you who are so concerned.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: hotater on April 26, 2009, 07:42:37 PM
 I agree with Jens, but it needs to be pointed out is *what* we're dealing with here.

 I own two 'roids and have documented them both, warts and all, but my point of reference was not to document a "Ready to run engine".

My intention was to document what to look for and how to fix it in an engine that is, easy to fix with the most basic understanding and even more basic hand tools to BUILD a ready to run engine.

 Both my 'engines' were "Kits".   Just as the engine featured in the youtube video was a KIT that included most of the parts, but some are better thrown away.  (I've never looked in a Listeroid fuel tank...why bother?  Hook up a proper tank and be done with it.  The same goes for fuel lines, the ridiculous'oil pump', spacers, gaskets, bushings and some bearings.)  Those parts and some others are only there so the Indians can claim a *complete* engine.  Not a completely good engine.

I judge Indian engines of any make, model, and variation to be good or bad by how close to straight does the piston travel in relation to the cylinder?  And, how much work does it take to make it 'right'.

I sincerely wish I had a need for a Redstone. I WOULD own one and answer my own questions, but I'd welcome somebody else doing it instead
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mike90045 on April 26, 2009, 07:53:53 PM
> hoping for the best, but I was fearful of the worst, just look at this guys engine   
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D47ulHDSns.

Yikes, muffler hits fuel tank.  Fine if you run veggie oil and need preheat .

But, I'd like to drag this back to REDSTONES, since, the boast has been made, that they arrive "ready to run".  I'm pretty sure we all know the indian listeroids can contain anything, and if there is one importer of them, that IS having success with curry free engines, I'd like to know that too.

So I have 90 off grid acres in escrow now, and after I get engine house built over summer, I may be ready for a shipment of somekind.

Mike "still looking" for ~3KW genset.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: piperpilot3tk on April 26, 2009, 08:03:25 PM
Quote
Both my 'engines' were "Kits".   Just as the engine featured in the youtube video was a KIT that included most of the parts, but some are better thrown away.  (I've never looked in a Listeroid fuel tank...why bother?  Hook up a proper tank and be done with it.  The same goes for fuel lines, the ridiculous'oil pump', spacers, gaskets, bushings and some bearings.)  Those parts and some others are only there so the Indians can claim a *complete* engine.  Not a completely good engine.

 

The engine in the video was a "kit" engine??? ??? ??? ???  This is not true according to the retailer's web site.  The guy in the video made comment that the Indian built engines are like kits that you have to work on them to make them right, and I think he has the right idea and attitude.  I think the engine in the video would have made itself into a pile of scrap in a few hours if it was put straight into service.

I would like to know if the redstone is ready to run, and a whole lot of other details.  Some time in the future I may be in the market for just such an engine.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: hotater on April 26, 2009, 08:28:42 PM
  I can't speak to the retailer's web site, I'm only stating what *my* expectations were and what my intentions were for the engines and what I considered them to be.  (entire writeup and photo links on utterpower.com)

If I were to buy a brand new _____fill in the blank___ genset from a major manufacturer, I would never think to check for grit under the piston skirt, but if it's goobered up with green goo and assembled  with washers cut out of old tin cans, I sure will!

What is really needed, to my thinking,  is an honest look at the foundations in order to put together a meaningful impression of the engine as a whole.  *Details* like running on for a minute about a fuel tank with rust in it (in the 8-1 vid) means absolutely nothing.  It more than likely leaks too, or soon will. 
  I still think the piece of wood in the fuel filter was proof it filtered out what it was designed to..... ;D

I have great hopes for the Redstone, but without assessments by people looking for the 'right' things, it could become just a contest for nit-pickers.  I feel that's a horse that doesn't have to be whipped anymore.    They're  *INdian* engines!  They have far enough to go to perfection to last our lifetimes, I think.    ;)

The WORST job in the world has to be as an Indian astronaut.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 27, 2009, 02:00:57 AM
in an effort to clear the air a bit :)

first of all i appologize for blowing anyone's dress up over their heads!

specifically piperpilot i may have been a bit more blunt with you than you felt necessary, and if the shoe does not fit
simply cast it aside.

now to respond to some of your concerns

"I cannot understand how buying a new indian listeroid and wanting to perform a teardown inspection to ensure all is well prior to putting it to work has so many people upset !"

i know of no one that is upset with you wanting to do that, i certainly have no issue with you doing so, and quite frankly would suggest you do just that!

"I also have never seen another web forum where one or two members repeatedly instigate arguments, talk out of both sides of their mouth, and pass judgment on other peoples intelligence and are allowed to hang around.  "

fair enough, but perhaps you have misunderstood my point, or perhaps i did not explain my position well enough?
first of all there is no shame in being ignorant, we all are ignorant on all sorts of issues, i know of no one that is an expert on all things
and quite frankly those that are experts on certain things often times are lacking in other area's because of the time they have taken
away from lifes lessons to become an expert in their fields.

i will be the first to admit i am ignorant of many things, but there is a difference being ignorant and being stupid

being ignorant is not generally a terminal problem, one can choose to not be ignorant and set out learn all he can on the subject he
is interested and ignorant in,, and that is a commendable thing in my opinion.

what i have little patience with are those that choose to remain ignorant, will not listen, won't read, try to learn, and take offense to being
instructed, because they know better when clearly they are ignorant and will do nothing about it. thats stupid in my opinion.

anytime i am called stupid or ignorant, i generally try to take a step back and see if maybe i am missing something.

now let me take this opportunity to state, "piperpilot, i don't think you are stupid or ignorant, i don't know you well enough to make that
assessment"

i truely wish you well with your new purchase, it looks really nicely done, and i am sure Phil will take good care of you should you need help.

my only point was, let Phil have every opportunity to make right, there really is no need to post picture of some sand under a corner in the crankcase, or a rough lifter, etc.

after a while it becomes what Thoreau explains as

(paraphrased here)

" i have no need for the newspaper, how many barn fires do i need to read about, how many wrecks, deaths...
after a while one comes to understand that once you have read about one barn fire, there is no need to read about more..."

btw, i strongly suspect your engine will be a quantum leap over any container load of engines you would have imported on your own
and when the chips are all down probably less money spent by going to CMD.

anyway, in closing
please accept my appologies, and don't let my comments upset you further.

bob g

 

Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: JohnF13 on April 27, 2009, 09:23:13 PM
O.K., the slow old man is back.....told ya life would intervene!

Got the engine and head mounted on the frame today and did a test run with a belt around the flywheel on the engine and an 8.4" pulley on the genhead.  Obviously it was way too slow (engine flywheel is "about" 21.3) , my calcs. indicate that the engine speed was only around 750 to give 120 volts with that configuration.  However, it all worked well (and that was the point of this exercise) so I just need to get me a bigger genhead pulley to do a real test.  And before you ask - pics will be taken shortly and put up on my website.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Wizard on April 27, 2009, 11:08:12 PM
Interested to see it run and with correct pulley as well. :)

Note that youtube now have good quality viewing in HQ mode.

Cheers, Wizard
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 28, 2009, 12:36:52 AM
finally some reports from the redstone, look forward to seeing some pics

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mike90045 on April 28, 2009, 05:34:33 PM
in an effort to clear the air a bit :)

first of all i appologize for blowing anyone's dress up over their heads!


It's a Kilt  !
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on April 28, 2009, 08:05:34 PM
lmao :)

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: JohnF13 on April 28, 2009, 11:04:11 PM
Slight slow down, I have ordered a 13" 8 groove serpentine pulley to go on the genhead.  According to my figures that will mean the engine will be running at 1200 rpm @ 60hz.  IT should be here by Friday.

Jens - I did not try a load at 750 rpm, it was at the extreme bottom of governor response with the stock spring so I didn'tthink it would be of value.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: JohnF13 on May 06, 2009, 01:15:16 AM
The 13" pulley arrived yesterday and was fitted this morning.  Attached is a link to a you tube video of the engine running,  It is mounted on 6" "I" beams and is driving a 10kw head.  The "I" beams are not tied down in any way.  There are a lot of things that I need to tweak before putting it into my genshed, I will be removing the water pump, tapping the hole for 1/2" NPT thread  and of course fitting a correct cooling plate.  The other thing I need to do is to remove the starter switch from the engine and onto the shed wall.

What you hear is what you get - it is a pretty quiet engine running at 1200 rpm with only a stock muffler and air intake on it - these are other things that need to be changed for my purposes.  The is a rather annoying rattling sound, it is the lid of the generator junction box - easy fix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2Tx1IN0Dgw
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: lowspeedlife on May 06, 2009, 01:25:00 AM
Nifty video John, it sounds good even with the rattleing junction box cover. the 13 inch flywheel/pulley looks huge on the gen head. get her loaded up & give us another vid!  thanks,

                 Scott R.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on May 06, 2009, 01:43:15 AM
i bet it will make 8kwatt electrical all day long at 1200rpm
and return some impressive fuel consumption numbers as well,

right in the sweet spot for this engine, in my opinion

very nicely done JohnF

bravo

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Tom on May 06, 2009, 01:48:08 AM
Very nice. They really exist! Now to sell the idea to the wife!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: hotater on May 06, 2009, 01:50:58 AM
Quote
Now to sell the idea to the wife!

Paint spirals on the flywheels and say low and slow,  "We NEED this.  We NEED this....."
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Tom on May 06, 2009, 02:37:43 AM
Well the 3.1 kw we are getting by on now is a bit short of what we'd like to have. If only the Outback Inverters had generator support as advertised. It will be interesting to see how much power John makes at 1200 RPM.
Title: Q
Post by: Wizard on May 06, 2009, 02:55:29 AM
That's real NICE ripple in the water (little vibration). :)  Color me happy about that Redstone.

How is the thumps transmitting through the ground if loaded more?

Opposed to this two engines that quakes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqwuAzcV4AQ - make sure it is in HQ mode to see more clearly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3IM-2GZO8M&feature=channel

Cheers, Wizard
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on May 06, 2009, 08:24:13 AM
with the redstone there is no reason to have to tolerate any vibration transmitted to the floor or surrounding structures
it is a natural of resilient mounting done in various methods suited to he who wants to go that method.

of course there will always be the diehard concrete mount fellow, and to him i give my shovel

:)


bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: lowspeedlife on May 07, 2009, 12:10:11 AM
with the redstone there is no reason to have to tolerate any vibration transmitted to the floor or surrounding structures
it is a natural of resilient mounting done in various methods suited to he who wants to go that method.

of course there will always be the diehard concrete mount fellow, and to him i give my shovel

:)


bob g

... and a bottle of Tylenol ...
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Doug on May 08, 2009, 05:53:50 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Txqmgr1k0Y
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on May 08, 2009, 06:27:30 AM
WTF is that all about?

lol

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Doug on May 08, 2009, 06:34:08 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGuJsJHl7pE
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on May 08, 2009, 05:32:38 PM
Doug:

you are one strange dude!

after checkin out you last video clip, which btw i hated,,, i happened to check out
"googoosh"

who knew?

i am in love! and the ayatollah can burn in hell for all i care!

that gal has a set of pipes straight from god!

so i guess in a wierd twisted sort of way, i have you to thank for my stumbing on to her.

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: hotater on May 08, 2009, 06:25:00 PM
I'm totally amazed anybody made it past the first four seconds of either of them.

If there's any information about slow speed engines in either of those waste of bandwidth, it'll have to stay hidden there.  I wont stoop that low to 'get it'.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on May 08, 2009, 06:30:56 PM
hey Hotater, why don't you tell us what you really think?

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: hotater on May 08, 2009, 06:38:18 PM
Quote
hey Hotater, why don't you tell us what you really think?

Because it scares the Libs, socialist, and other trash.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on May 08, 2009, 06:46:20 PM
by all means, please go right on ahead,,,

god knows we need to scare a few socialist liberal commies about now!

if you hadn't noticed they seem to have taken over the world lately

 :o

and most of them make about as much sense as Dougs video clips pertaining to redstone or any engine.

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: hotater on May 08, 2009, 06:57:14 PM
I figure the world was already overpopulated with lawyers, commies, politicians, idiots, and those that refuse to accept reality as it is when I was born in 1946.  It damn sure hasn't gotten any better with time.  Wake me up when it's time to shoot them, otherwise I'll continue to ignore them and refuse to engage in their folly....or crimes.

Lister content:  My re-enforced, insulated, and heated by natural hot water CONCRETE engine stand is complete and ready for Magic Throb II to be mounted tightly, level and with specific torque directly to ol' Mother Earth.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: JohnF13 on May 08, 2009, 07:49:04 PM
Hotater;

Save me a couple, I'm starting to get bored!  As for your Concrete comment, you are just trying to get Bob all in a tither.....
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on May 08, 2009, 08:01:17 PM
concrete?

blah,, just give me a cubic yard block of rubber

:)

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: hotater on May 08, 2009, 08:06:09 PM
Quote
you are just trying to get Bob all in a tither.....

Bob is like a crossbow with a set trigger.  He gets all wound up and tight over a month or two and then the simplest of statements ..... THWANNNg!!!!

I'm just trying to relieve some pressure.

A lack of proper and permanent engine mounts reflects on the mobility of the person that owns it.  Bob ain't lit fer good yet.

Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on May 08, 2009, 08:20:44 PM
hmmmm

maybe that is why i am "mobile_bob" instead of "concrete_bob"

lmao

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Stan on May 08, 2009, 08:25:07 PM
I'm just waiting for Jens' setup to trigger "the big one" here on the Wet coast. 

http://gsc.nrcan.gc.ca/geodyn/etschatter_e.php

Stan
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Stan on May 08, 2009, 11:48:46 PM
I think their whole theory is based on your "thumper".  The whole point of these many little 14 month periodic limit and slip events is that one of them is going to trigger a 9.0 or bigger 700 year event.  Hope you've got thumper bolted down tightly!
Stan
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: hotater on May 09, 2009, 12:14:47 AM
Stan--
Interesting how the same data means different things to different people.  The article mentioned 'triggering a big quake'.

The periodic slip, would seem to me to be a signal that the faults are not locked and therefore the energy for a 9.0 is being bled off non-destructively.  It's when they go silent for a hundred or so years that you get the great slip-thrust quakes like Anchorage 1964.  I think the concern is that slip in one place equals stress in another, but how do you discern a 'quiet fault' from a 'bound fault' from no fault at all?

The FACT is, humans haven't been here long enough to have sufficient information to know even partially for sure how all this works.  The ones that sound most sure of themselves get the grant money.

I wonder how much horsepower the Juan de Fuca tectonic plate has to have to move an inch a year?
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: lowspeedlife on May 09, 2009, 12:43:41 AM
I think you would be better off having them melt down the subs & have them make new listers & send them over, at least that way you get something of value!! ;D
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Wizard on May 09, 2009, 12:48:21 AM
If someone is melting subs, steel cast redstone would be really nice with steel flywheels (same weight not less.  But thinner cast for the body and strong, less heavier.  :)

Cheers, Wizard
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Stan on May 09, 2009, 04:08:14 PM
I agree Jens...I have always said I like my girls with big wheels!
Stan
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Wizard on May 10, 2009, 12:03:17 AM
Peace!  Sometimes I come out sounding strange sometimes.

I was just being witty but steel is rather nice metal to work with if it cracked or breaks, weld it back together.  Cast iron is diffcult to do.

Cheers, Wizard
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Stan on May 10, 2009, 02:46:47 AM
Hotater.....The best analogy for understanding the Episodic Tremour and Slip phenomenon is that it explains how the stresses build up in the Cascadia subduction zone.  consider that most of the Pacific Ocean's floor is slipping under the North American Plate at a few centimeters per year. 

Think of winding up a come-along.  As the toothed wheel winds up, the holding cog clicks into place with each partial turn.  The stress keeps building up, but every time a cog clicks into place, theres' a minute hesitation. 

This is what is happening underneath Victoria and Seattle (and Portland for that matter).  As each one of these ETS events occurs roughly every 14 or 15 months, theres' a good chance that (link a come along slipping with disasterous results) the entire cascadia fault will "go".  Since it's been a few hundred years since the last 9 or greater event, it's almost time for the next one.  (the last one was recorded as a tidal wave in Japan in great detail.)

I was originally going to go into geomorphology specializing in volcanism or glaciology as a young whipper snapper.
Stan
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: hotater on May 10, 2009, 03:02:47 AM
Quote
I was originally going to go into geomorphology specializing in volcanism

Me too.  Geology is still my first love.

I disagree with, "The stress keeps building up, ".   I submit the slip is *relieving* stress and not 'building' it.   Once the subducted member reaches the plastic zone above the mantle it's assimilated, but the gases and more 'fragile' organics feed the Cascade volcano chain.

I think it's great they can 'see' these deep slips, but I still maintain the faults that are locked are the ones that are 'building stress' and unless a fault has been historically active, is likely to be mistaken for a 'quiet' fault or no fault at all.

The Wasatch Front running through Salt Lake City is a great example.

Slip is a GOOD thing and the steps in it reflect Newtonian Physical Laws, which is also a good thing.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Stan on May 10, 2009, 03:51:37 AM
Well, there's a guy who was a fervent disagreer to the episodal tremor and slip theory as a causative factor to large fault events like yourself (I forget his name) and so he chartered a boat and took many many core samples of deep ocean canyons off the coast for hundreds of miles.  He reasoned that if there had been periodic large scale events, they would be registered by the deep under water avalaches into these canyons.  After analyzing the data he came up with very regular large scale events every few hundred years (I forget the exact interval) and became a fervent supporter of the theory.  I'll try and find out his name and the data he collected but I'm not home right now and accessing the forum by laptop and itouch so it's kind of clumsy to do.

They (the guys in Victoria who discovered this whole "new" event type, figure it doesn't really relieve much stress at all, compared to what is building up in these micro slips, which only occur every 15 months or so.  This Cascadia fault line is a monster, and hiccups quite regularily, and can be triggered by anyone with a 2 cyl Listeroid which is bolted to Vancouver Island.
Stan

Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: rcavictim on May 10, 2009, 11:47:52 AM
I think you would be better off having them melt down the subs & have them make new listers & send them over, at least that way you get something of value!! ;D

That terrible fire tradgedy where the surplus British sub was surface running with the new owner Canadians on-board driving it off-the-lot as it were and had a bad electrical fire on board is probably the best example of why screen doors are not necessarily 'useless' on a submarine.

Ventillation to clear the smoke may have reduced the intensity of the noxious poisonous smoke for some of the survivors.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: hotater on May 10, 2009, 01:44:37 PM
Stan---

We are saying the SAME thing.  Mega thrust earthquakes DO happen on the Pacific coast just as they do in the Himalayan Arc and the Mt. McKinley Arc in Alaska.  My point is that the 'slip/creep' means THAT part of the fault is no 'bound'.  Of COURSE other parts of the fault are gaining stress and will slip in a megathrust quake, its only a matter of time.....which can he said of everything.  TIME is  dimension we short-lived humans can't understand.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Dail R H on May 10, 2009, 03:32:36 PM
   Probably "Lucas" was the elecrical contractor / supplier for the Brittish subs ;D ;D We really do need a running for cover smiley
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: t19 on May 10, 2009, 03:51:59 PM
Oh yes Lucas "Prince of Darkness" electronics ... says it all
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: hotater on May 10, 2009, 04:15:30 PM
No way the Brits are dumb enough to let Lucas near a submarine!

This is a pretty good three thread 'cord' we got going here. If somebody will introduce a couple more subjects we could build an internet rope!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: mobile_bob on May 10, 2009, 06:26:49 PM
you haven't lived until you have been tasked with overhauling a lucas gehrling air over hydraulic brake system
or even the hydraulic over hydraulic, what a circus

hows that Jack?

anyway in a effort to steer back ontopic

after working on all sorts of bastardized crap, it is pretty nice dealing with lister/oids, changfa, and now the redstone
where sound engineering prevails.

instead of the typical product today, where they engineer, just to be different
and where "if" it makes a couple thousand hours, it will be thrown away anyway.

at least with the redstone, everything that is there needs to be there, and it is designed
(much like the lister) to have a long life and be repairable/rebuildable.

bob g
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: abbamovers on May 10, 2009, 07:19:51 PM
Ah Bob I guess I have lived. 8)
Done 3 of 'em , 1 1987 Ford Cargo 6000, 1 1986 Ford Cargo 6000 and my fav, a 1989 Ford F800 with Hy- Power Booster system.
All with Lucas Girling rears and Dayton disks in the fronts.
The 1989 Ford I replaced the entire system from booster, disks , calipers, drums and backing plates complete with wheel cyls , shoes and associated hardware to the brake lines and hoses.
Guess what ?
The damn rear wheel cyls. started leaking, on both sides, 6 months later !!! >:(
The MTO ( our version of truck inspectors ) really love pulling me over and seeing that tell tale puddle of brake fluid in the rim groove. ::)
Never had the Dayton calipers leak, always the rears.
But I always found the master cyl. to be a nice fix on the cab over Fords. The boosters were really just a front air brake chamber pretending to be a booster, an easy  and cheap fix.
I found a little trick that keeps 'em from leaking.
Use British Castrol or Lucas brake fluid as used by the little Brit sports cars (Mgb, Spits, etc. )
Seems our North American fluid eats the brit rubber on the rears.

Give me air systems any time of the year.
Sorry for rant, continue on  :D

Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Tom on May 12, 2009, 05:18:48 AM
hello again from the sand bar. looking through flea-bay, i happened across the mistery engine from the peoples republic known as redstone. juling ltd. looks like someone requested special production run of existing engines with 2 flywheels to appeal to a certain crowd of folks that are fastenated with exposed flywheels. maybe with 2 wheels you can run them down real slow to the edge of usefulness. look at item #270379154636 with a buy it now@ 1999.00 any comments? mike a

How did you get all that from an ad for a common single flywheel Chinese diesel?
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: JohnF13 on May 12, 2009, 02:06:58 PM
aloris;

That's nothing more than a Changfa style engine.  The Redstone's maximum speed is 1500 rpm.  That is similar to the ZS1125M that I used to sell, mine was also 27hp.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: lowspeedlife on May 13, 2009, 02:03:27 AM
Nope, that's not a redstone, just the standard changfa style diesel. that price makes the redstone look all that more attractive.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: piperpilot3tk on May 17, 2009, 02:33:05 AM
John F, any new news on the Redstone?  The video sure looked good!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: Montana on May 17, 2009, 04:23:43 PM
Well it looks like Im in the market for a redstone with a ST head.  Now I just have to locate one.
 
Just about finished up on my 12/1 project I have to get the YAK fat out of the generator bearings and keep an eye on the taper pin, just to make sure it doesnt come out.  The first listroid I bought off ebay, 6/1 Omega is going to set in the corner of the shop and collect dust.  That guy off ebay was a real JackASS.  Any way with all the BS I lost interest in it after I got the 12/1. 
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: piperpilot3tk on May 17, 2009, 06:52:32 PM
Montana, send JohnF13 an email, he sells the Redstones.  Looks like the Redstone is the way to go if you need all that power.  Sorry to hear about your experiance with the ebay bum, what is wrong with the 6/1 that you have?  How is the 12/1 working out for you? 
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: oliver90owner on May 17, 2009, 09:11:40 PM
I have to get the YAK fat out of the generator bearings

Why not do the job properly once and just replace them now with good quality ones of the correct tolerance?  The cost is not great and the confidence that a bearing failure is much less likely to occur is 'peace of mind'.  If they were not worth lubricating properly in the first place, they are unlikely to be top grade bearings anyway. 

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: lowspeedlife on May 17, 2009, 10:29:39 PM
I have to get the YAK fat out of the generator bearings

Why not do the job properly once and just replace them now with good quality ones of the correct tolerance?  The cost is not great and the confidence that a bearing failure is much less likely to occur is 'peace of mind'.  If they were not worth lubricating properly in the first place, they are unlikely to be top grade bearings anyway. 

Regards, RAB

 The fan end bearing really should be a sealed bearing so the fan does not blow the dirt into it. If you have it opened up any way, bearings are cheap, down time is expensive.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: lowspeedlife on May 17, 2009, 10:36:23 PM
Montana, John f13 may not be able to help you with a redstone, he's in canada, & if you are in the US Joel Koch is most likely going to be your dealer, I'm not sure about that but I think they have sort of divided up north america. I know that when George a utterpower waas selling listeroids that was the arraingment. If he can't sell to you he atleast should be able to put you in touch with Joel.
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: apogee_man on May 20, 2009, 04:51:45 AM
I sent Montana a PM with Joel's contact info.

 ;D
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: dieseldave on June 23, 2009, 07:51:26 PM

  It looks like the REDSTONE is the way to go! Had these been available in Sept '07, I may have went with one of these instead of a Listeroid!! Chinese are getting better at QC/QA.

   I also believe that these 'redstones' have been available in China for quite some time, and they are capitalizing on all the Listeroid problems. :P

   Kind of reminds me of what the Japanese did in the 60's with the Motorcycle Industry  ;D
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: xyzer on June 23, 2009, 08:42:10 PM
    Kind of reminds me of what the Japanese did in the 60's with the Motorcycle Industry  ;D
Except I bet there won't be a import tarrif on the higher quality import.
Dave
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: dieseldave on June 24, 2009, 05:35:49 AM

  It's a known fact that in the 1950's,japanese companies would buy all sorts of Bikes, DKW, Norton,BSA etc, etc, They would tear them apart and re-engineer them.

  If you took a 1950's DKW with a Pressed Steel Frame and painted it that Honda Red they were using at that time, one would assume it was a Honda Dream at 1st glance!

  They got rid of the Oil leaks and the need for constant bolt tightening,along with electric start.

  The Royal Enfield was called the 'Royal Oilfield'!
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: panaceabeachbum on July 24, 2009, 02:05:19 AM
Are any of these still avail ?
Title: Re: Redstone engines
Post by: dieseldave on July 24, 2009, 03:17:40 AM

  If your in Canada contact  www.woodnstuff.ca     If your in the USA contact  www.utterpower.com