Lister Engine Forum
Alternative fuels => Bio-diesel Fuel => Topic started by: diesel guy on March 29, 2006, 06:19:16 PM
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I just purchased a one ton press from Joel:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7604231387&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcY_BID_Stores_IT
Is there anyone in this forum that knows where I could buy bulk canola (rape) seed, castor beans, and sunflower seed? Has anyone used these presses and could you tell us your results.
Thanks
Diesel Guy
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Hi, I'm a distributor for Joel and I have some experience with the presses. I have crushed canola and sunflowers with my 2 ton press, and the presses do a great job of cold extracting both of those.
This isn't a good time of year to look for bulk oilseeds, since most of the elevators in farm country have long since shipped last summer's crop. But if you just want some to play with, go to anyplace that sells bird seed (for feeding the outside birds) and you'll find black oil sunflower seed. It's not great quality, but it will be clean of chaff and stalks etc and it will press. You don't need to dehull it. But make sure it's room temperature or warmer -- vegoil doesn't want to leave the seeds when they're cold.
Message me from here if you want more detail, I take multiple calls and emails a day on this subject.
Russell Groves
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DG ... A couple questions,
What are you powering this with.
What are you going to use the oil for.
I have a small ranch operation and thought about using the oil as fuel in my genset and using the crushed waste for feed. Do you have a source of information about doing this?
Ken Gardner
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Russell,
Thanks for your quick reply and info. I’m going to take your suggestions and if I have any questions I’ll Email you. Could you send me an Email with any updates that you might come up with in the future? Your help on this subject is appreciated.
Ken,
Thanks for your questions.
What are you powering this with?
I will be using a 6/1 with indirect injection, from Joel.
What are you going to use the oil for?
I will use it in our generators powered by 6/1’s and would like to produce a reliable backup fuel supply for our trucks incase there was a disruption of our nations oil import.
We will use the byproduct as a solid fuel for heating purposes.
Do you have a source of information about doing this?
No, but I would like to know as much as I could on this subject.
Diesel Guy
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.
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http://home.earthlink.net/~arkansasbiofuels/id18.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/pressextract.html
http://www.ballarat.edu.au/projects/ensus/case_studies/biodiesel/
My post on Greasecar.
"So I looked into this a bit.
Rapeseed is about $10 per cwt which is about $178 per ton. You will get about 400lbs of oil which is about 50 gallons. This can range pretty far it looks like depending on how good the seed is. So your 50 gallons cost $3.56 per gallon. But you can sell the leftovers as feedstock right?
Well not exactly, from what I found out most cattle don't like the leftovers and some cattle growers don't want the stuff in their feed, it is usally mixed at a value much lower then 10% with other types of feed. Plus you have to find somebody that wants the small amounts you will be making.
Add to this the cost of an engine $700 (and up) and the press $1995 for a 2 ton and things start to get out of control pretty fast."
I appreciate your misgivings about pressing oil for fuel. Every day I get calls from folks who think an oilseed press will give them cheap oil. The first thing I ask every one of those callers is "where are you going to get your oilseed?" and the second is "what are you going to do with the presscake?" If they plan to make biodiesel, I also ask their plans for the glycerol. Then I ask if they are ready to handle a heavy and unwieldy hunk of cast iron, and to spend some time getting it set up and making some beginner's mistakes. Unless I get a clear and sensible answer to those questions, I discourage them from buying. Because I don't want to hear them bitching later if they make an impulsive purchase and then find out it was a mistake.
For a farmer who is already growing oilseeds, the tradeoffs versus purchased diesel fuel are production cost per cwt, elevator price he will receive for that seed (which is deferred income if he presses the seed), cap outlay and depreciation for the press, and ultimately the most critical figures are value of the oil and value of the cake. I have customers in western Kansas who would disagree with your contentions about value and palatability of press cake. In fact, their feed chemist says the relative feed value of canola cake makes it worth $170 per ton, and he would like to get more of it into their feed bunks. These guys are big farmers with multiple fields under irrigation, a large feedlot, and they are already growing hundreds of acres of canola. For them the numbers work, and they also like the security of having some of their own fuel be homegrown. Security against diesel shortages doesn't have a clear dollar value. But if and when the fuel supplier can't get diesel to that farmer when he needs it, having the vegetable oil option gets very valuable.
Growing oilseeds and pressing the oil from them yourself is not a viable answer for most people. But it is one of the few advantages a diesel-burning farmer has over his urban counterpart.
Russell Groves
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Ok, is anyone actually doing this?? Id love to get a place with 60 acres and sell the seed to a local farmer in exchange for enough seed to provide fuel for the year. Also would not mind leaving them the cake, I jus wnat the oil
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Ok, is anyone actually doing this?? Id love to get a place with 60 acres and sell the seed to a local farmer in exchange for enough seed to provide fuel for the year. Also would not mind leaving them the cake, I jus wnat the oil
I don't know anybody who's doing it that way. There is a real business opportunity for somebody who offers pressing services to farmers either as a cash transaction or in exchange for a percentage of the oil. One of the nice things about pressing oil - intact oilseeds keep their quality for many months if they're stored right. So an itinerant oilpress guy could keep busy year round if he wanted to, and keep the equipment busy making cash (and oil) flow. Here in farm country, back before Monsanto started suing farmers for saving patented seed to replant, farmers would commonly have their seed cleaned by an travelling fanning mill. One day on this farm, next day a few miles away. Seed needs to be clean, both to plant and to press. So that model would work nicely with oil pressing.
This will sound weird coming from somebody who sells the equipment, but I'm not sure I'd favor buying a small acreage and the equipment to farm it for oilseed. Too much capital outlay. I think it makes more sense to hire out the field work to somebody who has more acreage and a better way to amortize the equipment.
Hey, I'm all about small farms. I think 60 acres of canola or sunflowers, turned into oil and cake, make a lot more economic sense than 60 acres of corn produced as a commodity.
Russell
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I was not going to farm it, but trade its use in exchange forseed oil with local farmers
i was thinking of setting up a moble system if it was viable
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I live in northern Alberta and was just this morning chatting with a Dutchman neighbour who is verry cerious about getting a co-op on the go and developing markets for canola and or bio diesel . In europe where fuel prices have been high for years it makes economic sence. This week he will be meating with a German buyer.So yah it sounds as though it is possible to grow and crush your own oil for sale and your own use.
Greg
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Well Ceiii2000, it took a while, but checked with two farmers, one in North Dakota, and one in Eastern Washington, and they both said their cattle LOVE canola feedcake.
Just about all of your other comments about oilseed, etc, are crap, also.
Another acquaintance of mine is a soil scientist with Oregon State University who specializes in oil seeds. He tells me that even small farming operations can grow oilseeds for less than $100 USD per ton of oil seed. The short and sweet of it is, the feedcake values
just about pay for the planting, harvesting, etc, and the oil then becomes the profit. Fifty acres or so of farmland ends up providing 2500 or so gallons of oil.
The University of Idaho has several really good papers available for farmers who want to try this, and so do many other county ag. extension agents in the US.
"Out of control" is $2.80/gallon diesel fuel, and your inflamatory comments.
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Hey fuddyduddy! I like your style, positive and thoughtful. I have lived long enough to know a few things, it is easier to tear something down than to build it, and it is easier to bitch than think. I find this subject very interesting. I would love to hook up with a small local dairy farmer, have him grow the oil seed let me process it and supply him all the cake. Most of us already have the engines, generators and such because we love messing about with them, a press would only be an expansion of my hobby. Having 50 to 100 gallons of oil with my generator and a diesel powered VW would make me very satisfied with the hobby. How much is diesel fuel in some areas now? $1.50 per liter? I dont know for sure but even at $3.56 per gallon if the big pump is turned off it really doesnt matter much does it. Ken
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i bought a 4 ton press from joel, for the following reason
i wanted another source of energy that doesnt come from a pump.
also when you consider grain prices, (not sure about oil seed, but wouldn't be surprised) has remained stagnant for nearly 50 years!
sure some years it is higher but on average it has remained virtually the same since 1950, something that cannot be said for dino fuel.
when i first started developing my off grid lifestyle plan, i started with conservation of energy as the primary objective, after having done so, it really doesnt make much of a real dollar difference to me if the vegie oil has an end cost of 3 dollars or more, i just wanted to have another available fuel source available to me.
i guess it comes from living long enough, having some bad luck, bad decisions, etc. but i have seen the "bubble" pop before, and i figure it will again. Those that are prepared if a major recession hits, or god help us a depression will fair much better than those with no other option but derive their energy from the pump or grid.
when you think about it, who would your rather be? a city dweller with no options, or a country guy with a lister/gen that will manage to produce power from not only diesel, but vegie, waste vegie, waste motor oil, (and with the proper retrofits,in dual fuel mode), alcohol, methane, producer gas, propane and maybe some other fuels i havent heard of yet.
even a 6/1 that is laboring to stay running on swamp gas and producing 1 kwatt, will make you feel like a king should the power go out, or some other economic problem make buying energy cost prohibitive.
also if there is concern over the feed cake not being something that a cow wants to eat, (if she is hungry she will eat anything) then feed it to a hog, (he will eat anything that wont eat him first).
btw my plan requires approx 1.5 gallons of fuel a day to provide all the energy i will need on average over the year. That is not much diesel , much waste oil to collect, or much grain to press.
also with the EPA ruling their won't be alot of new competitors looking for these alternate fuel sources, at least fewer competitors.
another thing i have done some research on is the fact that these engines can be set up in dual fuel mode, consider the following.
press the oil seed for vegie oil, can use as is
take the byproduct, and ferment it and produce alcohol which can be used in an dual fuel diesel, take the left over mash
and feed it to the hog.
is it cost effective? who knows until it is done, but i have to guess that it would lower the initial end cost of the pressed oil.
guess it all comes down to how thin one want's to slice it.
bob g
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Bob,
Well said!! I second that.
Deisel Guy
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Thank you, Bob, for cutting through to the heart of the matter.
There is an elderly farmer in Michigan who has a small spread, around 2,000 acres. He uses under 100 of those acres to grow sunflowers, presses the seeds with a very old, worn, expeller, and runs his generator, tractors, pickups, and even his oil-fired furnace on the oil.
He is an almost obligatory trip for many government people who are looking at practical alternatives for imported petroleum.
BUT, it does not phase the old gentleman in the least; he says "Well, Grandad used to use 100 acres or so for oats, and some for hay for the horses, and all we are doing is using a different crop for different 'animals'."
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Bob, this is exactly why this forum is valuable, because it brings together people who aren't waiting to let somebody take care of them. So please let me drop one other variable in here. Once you've pressed the oil, fermented the mash and fed the hog, any ideas what you can do with the poop that comes out of the hog? Or out of you, when you've et the hog?
Yeah, it's biogas. Methane. Natural gas. And you can make that yourself too (no, not that way)
Watch this space or drop me a note. That's where I'l stop for now.
Russell
i bought a 4 ton press from joel, for the following reason
i wanted another source of energy that doesnt come from a pump.
another thing i have done some research on is the fact that these engines can be set up in dual fuel mode, consider the following.
press the oil seed for vegie oil, can use as is
take the byproduct, and ferment it and produce alcohol which can be used in an dual fuel diesel, take the left over mash
and feed it to the hog.
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yup convert it to biogas, methane, then what to do with the byproduct? hmmmm?
fertilizer for the oild grain crop!
i think that about completes the circle, wouldn't you say?
bob g
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Dear Fuddyduddy,
Living in Indiana, I'd be very interested in meeting this Michigan farmer with more sense that any 4 politicians put together on a good day. Assuming he is ammenable and the meeting is arranged at his convenience, etc etc etc.
Finest regards,
troy
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Hey SG watch it. I'm a politician (Libertarian candidate for California State Assembly) who is also thinking of buying a seed press and growing some rape seed on the ranch. Of course I have not won anything yet so I'm not much of a politician yet. :P
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Dear Tom,
Perhaps you are one of the new breed of super intelligent politicians that have evolved lately. I have heard vague reports of this possibility, but I thought it was all an urban myth.
I can't tell you how happy I am that you really do exist. If you were in my district, I'd vote for you in a heartbeat.
As you can tell, no offense intended and hopefully none taken.
In fact, I'll bet the reason your are a "politician" is that you held the same opinion or worse and decided you had to do something about it, and shooting the present crop is not a viable solution.
Finest finest regards,
troy
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Troy,
Thanks for the kind words and no offense taken. However in entering the field of politics I know I've entered into league with some of the slimy weasels on the face of the earth. Hopefully I may be able to raise a few peoples opinions along the way.
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MMM....
Free Pork.....
No just kidding, noble intentions. If I was a yank I'd vote for you.
Personaly I want to become a Latin American dictator....
Doug
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MMM....
Free Pork.....
No just kidding, noble intentions. If I was a yank I'd vote for you.
Personaly I want to become a Latin American dictator....
Doug
I'll be your evil sidekick
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That's good work....if you can get it ;D
I'm always telling people that they need to consider the long term implications of thier plans..ratio of scale and effect, unintended consequences, bottom line, cost to benefit ratio, waste disposal, holding tanks, consumables etc.
RGroves, you are to be commended for checking these aspects of a buyer before you sell him a press etc.
When I read of California's Hydrogen Highway and other pie in the sky energy schemes I just cringe. Stupidity should hurt up front to save all the pain that comes later.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is that You Guys really are willing to consider the actual high cost of what you plan. You realize the start up price, and the learning curve. The final price of the product and the effect on engine life are considered. Yet you proceed for your own reasons. Eyes wide open. I sure enjoy this better than listening to politicians leading from behind.
Scott E
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That's good work....if you can get it ;D
I understand the retirement plan has a few downsides.
_____________
Andre' B.
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Lets get one thing straight right off the bat Guy....
I'll do the 12 hour speaches and pound my shoe on the podium, that my job!
You fill the airplane with bags of cash an dkeep the engines running thats your job!!
Doug
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Ya know;
Hitler kept those Blom&Voss Wilking Flying Boats fueled and ready for years, but just couldn't make up his mind to leave the bunker in time. He sure could pound the podium and speachify tho'
I think the job at the airplane is the better.
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You haven't seen me in my army man outfit with my beard combed nice and shouting "I'll bury you" whilst I pound my shoe on a desk. .....
The only picture I could find......
The one in red is "Gimpy", she was hit by a car but we fed her and her pumps the summer of 03.
The one in green is me, the yellow thing on my belt is my "Johny light" and radio.
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/13017413745.jpg&s=f5
They actualy let me dress like this, let me yell at people and repair million dollar machines.
Oh ya and they pay me and say thanks lol!!!!!!
Doug
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[quote author = mobile bob]
another thing i have done some research on is the fact that these engines can be set up in the dual fuel mode
Care to expand on that Bob? I read about a fella running a diesel genset on methane but have no idea how it works. The methane would have to be introduced via the intake port, no? How's it metered, like a propane fueled engine? and how would you get the timing right?
Eagerly awaiting enlightenment Bill
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when i stated that these engines can be run in dual fuel mode, my intension or reasoning is as follows
1. they can be run in dual fuel mode, but not optimally
2. some provision will have to be made to admit the alternate fuel, such as carburation for alcohol, vaporizor for propane, etc
3. some form of overspeed control would be prudent
4. timing alteration should be used
for these engine's most forms of alternate fuels have sufficiently high octane ratings so as to not autoignite in the compression cycle, propane, alcohol, methane fit this group. all of these fuels have a lower btu rating and some have a marked difference in flame propagation over diesel fuel. So optimally timing would have to be altered.
in a basic sense, admitting the alternate fuel into the intake stream the fuel will not ignite until the diesel fuel is injected, having the extra alternate fuel allows the engine to speed up and in doing so the govenor tailors back the diesel that is injected and therefore control engine speed. Some engines can run upwards of 95% alternate fuel and 5% diesel pilot fuel.
it is unlikely in my opinion that the listeroid, petteroids and changfa's will tolerate much more than 80% alternate fuel, likely less than 75%, by tolerate i mean run reliably.
so basically in dual fuel mode it is my contention that running at a 50/50 mix would allow for good govenor control, stable engine operation and negate most of the need to alter the engine timeing. This is running in dual fuel mode but not optimally.
it comes down to how close you wanna slice the thing, how efficient you want or need to be.
to me having the option of dual fuel allows the use of other fuels as extenders to the pilot fuel, and therefore to me some sacrifice in efficiency is tolerable.
for instance
rape seed press it into oil, and use as a fuel straight up or as biodiesel
take the cake and ferment it to alcohol and carburate it as an alternative fuel in dual fuel mode
feed the mash to the pig, and then take the pigcrap to the methane generator, methane to the engine in dual fuel mode
the end slurry goes back to the field as fertilzer and the cycle is complete
is each point in the cycle maximized in efficiency? decidedly no
is the overall system efficiency acceptable? probably yes
if i were to set up a listeroid for a definite purpose dual fuel engine, such as with alcohol, then i would jet a carb and mount it, and also incorporate a hoof govenor to aid in control of the carburator, i would then alter the timeing to optimize power at the max ratio that the engine would tolerate and still operate reliably (run without miss)
even after all the work i am not sure the gains efficiency would offset the expense and complexity, and i would have an engine locked into one alternate fuel which might be fine if i had a large and steady source of the alternate fuel (in this case alcohol)
personally i believe this is the overriding beauty of the listeroid etc, because they can be made to produce useful power using a variety of fuels
giving me many options, which lessons my dependence on diesel fuel.
bob g
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Thanks Bob. Great explanation. Took me a while to find it - I remembered asking the question but couldn't remember where. This senility stuff is tough ??? Bill