Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Original Lister Cs Engines => Topic started by: lendusaquid on September 27, 2008, 12:17:48 AM
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Does the piston crown ever get red hot?. I ask because ive taken the engine apart to change some parts and found some crusty oil inside the piston at the top. Methinks it is there because the piston crown is getting to hot.Is this possible?.The engine does seem to get tight when it has been running a few hours on max load.Thats between 2.8-3kw.
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the piston won't get red hot by quite a stretch however it might get upwards of 1000 degree's under a heavy load
and there might be some localized heat well in excess of that, but likely under red hot in any event.
the oil will probably start to char and coke on the underside at temps over 400-500 degree' if there is not much oil being splashed up
to cool the piston,
is your engine DI or IDI
DI engines have the injector firing directly on the piston of course so that region would get hotter
but it would take alot of fuel to heat as much cast iron in one of those pistons to red heat, probably far more than can be delivered by the pump.
how much coking do you have under there?
bob g
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Its IDI running on wvo with a tad of acetone .High pressure line heated to 120 deg C. Its a 1930's engine with a Indian piston. The crusty oil was in the centre of the crown.There was enough there for me to worry about it dropping and getting into the bearings.
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lendusaquid,
I would be checking nozzle pattern and to see if there is any carbon in the combustion chamber. Getting into your bearings is a long way off. Getting into the ring grooves will come first, along with possible scoring of the bore.
If your fuel is viscous it needs thinning before the IP as well - it could be loading it up too much, but that will not cause this problem.
It would appear that your fuel is not burned/atomised properly and is sticking to the piston as the gases expand into the piston area.
Question: Do you stop and start on diesel?
You may also be close to the limit on available power from the old girl (sorry sexist comment!) especially if there is any DC output not accounted for (startomatic battery charging). May be over-fuelling in an attempt to carry the load which will just make things worse. Is your pop pressure correct? Leak down on the nozzle good? Any fouling in the nozzle valve causing poor spray pattern?
Your comment of seeming to be tight would make me check out the piston rings and grooves as well.
Regards, RAB
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the piston won't get red hot by quite a stretch however it might get upwards of 1000 degree's under a heavy load
and there might be some localized heat well in excess of that, but likely under red hot in any event.
"Faint Red" = aprox 930F
"Blood Red" = aprox 1075F
"Cherry Red" = aprox 1375F
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if i were you i would also take the cover off the side and check to see if your dip stick is correct
it might be a bit too long and you may be running very low on oil.
if there is not enough oil being thrown up under the piston, what little there is will do little to cool the piston
don't take long to check, so you might wanna give it a peek and see.
i know for a fact that the indian dipsticks can be way off!
i know of a 24/2 twin petteroid that was so low in the crankcase that half the pickup screen to the pump was exposed
and the dipstick indicated it was full.
bob g
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Mobile Bob, lend us a pound said: Its a 1930's engine
No dipstick. A proper Lister. Splash oil is supplied by run back from main bearings into the splash pan.
regards, RAB
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Thats right,no dipstick. RAB,its crud inside the piston at the top,not on the top.There was some carbon on the top but that was because i forgot to switch the line heater on a couple of times.I run for 10-15 mins on Diesel then switch to veg.
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What kind of oil are you using? And how tight is the piston in the bore?
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ok, maybe i am using the wrong term for you folks on the other side of the pond :)
dipstick over here means the thing you pull out to determine if the crankcase has enough oil
you know "low.... full"
i am not talking about the dipper attached to some engines on the conrod lower cap.
having never seen an original 1930 lister, how do you check the oil level?
how do you know whether there is sufficient oil in the crankcase?
believe me i am painfully aware of the wholly inadequate big end oiling scheme used by the lister engineers
with the top holes in the upper rod brg area and the grooved upper brg.
yes i know it works, but i would have fired the engineer that suggested its use to start with.
that design sorely limits the power density of the engine, likely good enough for 3/1 and 5/1, and maybe 6/1 if all is
very good,, but over that and there are issues as evidenced by lister going to various other means of getting oil up there
with dipper, hollow dippers etc.
anyway, my question still stands,
how do you know you have sufficient oil in the engine? and are you sure it is adequate?
i would sure check to make sure, for obvious reasons.
as i previously alluded to, it is the oil splash up under the piston that cools the piston, you need to make sure you
have adequate oil getting up there.
i find it hard to believe that the engine reportedly runs fine, doesn't smoke unduely, which would indicate that
there is no real serious issue with fueling causing excess heat, that if there is enough oil getting up there it could not keep the
piston cool enough not to coke up the underside of the piston top.
bob g
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Bob,
You can keep pouring in oil until it overflows!! No problem, only a mess. The oil reservoir is in the bottom of the crankcase and is only drawn upon by the oil pump (to one side).
This oil is pumped to the main bearings under no pressure. Gravity then takes over, oil into the mains and the excess (well, all of it actually) draining back toward the sump.
On it's way oil collected in the upper tray, which then overflows into the sump. The oil in this upper tray is always overflowing to the sump, hopefully, and is the constant level device for ensuring the dipper throws oil at a constant rate and never runs out of oil for slinging until the oil pump inlet towards the bottom of the sump is exposed.
Absolutely a master stroke of lube. Bottom sump alowed crud to settle relatively easily, big end was oiled until both mains and big end became short of oil(sump empty!!!. No stress on the oil pump, flooded suction and only needed to lift to open-ended pipes.
The slinger was used on countless engines prior to the CS - mainly spark ignition, so those were less highly stressed in the big end area. That, I believe, led to the larger diameter crank being fitted soon after the CS was produced, not because the crank was weak but simply that the bearing area needed to be larger for the extra loads (big end babbit got pounded into sumission on some early engines?)
Much higher-powered multi cylindered engines used an oil squirt technique for many years ( Wisconsin statioary engines in the 40s/50s, Oliver tractor engines into the 50s to name a couple of US originated engines). Many early stationary engines had a gresed big end bearinf (International Harvester for one).
lendusaquid,
Oops, I obviously read your post wrong, or interpreted it wrongly. Ok, crud will mostly finish in the bottom of the sump. Perhaps need to use a better oil - fully synthetic would take the excessive heat much better than a straight dino. OK if the engine is fully run in, ring seating wise. Might be very unlucky and actually block the big end oil holes.
Regards, RAB
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There is a lot of rubbish being talked about in this thread.
1/ Oil serves three purposes, it lubricates, it carries away heat, and it carries away dirt.
2/ multigrade oil like 5W40 is not a mixture of 5 weight and 40 weight, it is 100% 5 weight with some fancy chemicals added to make it act like 40 weight, as soon as these chemicals wear out, eg by age or cooking, you end up with straight 5 weight.
3/ Synthetic oils have their uses, japanese motorcycle engines etc, they also have places where they are totally inappropriate.
4/ detergent oils keep crap in suspension, non-detergent oils do not, like the synthetic vs regular issue, detergent oils are appropriate for full flow, full pressure lube, full filter engines, not listers, non detergent oils are what you use in an engine like a lister which is designed to have a deposition sump where the crap gets dropped out of the oil.
5/ bob thinks the lister CS lube system is shite, bob is wrong, my engine for example is over half a century old, what is right for a japanese motorbike ain't right for a medium speed stationary engine, splash lube systems literally cannot fail in operation, and they are appropriate to the power density of the engine.
now the biggie.
6/ there is complete crap being talked about here with piston temperatures, and I mean complete crap.
Just because the combustion process is producing gas that is approaching a thousand degrees does not mean that the piston gets anywhere even remotely near those temperatures.
Hello, there are enough examples of nutters who have in extremis or just for the hell of it made hardwood pistons and in every case the engine runs, they only time wooden pistons fail is when the pressures kill them, they never charred into dust, 1/16" alloy cap (with no way to disperse heat to the wooden piston) was enough.
Any time you doubt me it is easy enough to pop and injector (DI) or a head or an exhaust manifold (2 stroke) and probe actual piston crown temperature within 60 seconds of the bitch having been screaming at full song for ten minutes.
Pistons (as far as we are concerned) don't get very hot at all, at 210 celcius diesel burns, at 180 celcius it boils, yet you can get excess diesel pooling inside the piston crown in a running engine and poorly atomised fuel droplets on tickover being evaporated at charred into carbon instead of being burnt.
The carbon itself on a piston crown is a fuel, which burns extremely readily (just ask anyone with a coal fire) at the right temperature, again we are talking mere fractions of a thousand degrees.
There is a complete and total lack of thought here, a CS 6/1 burns a gallon of diesel every 4 hours on song, and there is 124,000 btu in a gallon of diesel, there just isn't enough energy in the fuel at that rate of use to get anything much bigger than a 0.5 cubic inch radio control model airplane engine piston seriously hot, and even those dinky motors burn a big part of a gallon in 4 hours
The combustion event has high gas temperatures AND PRESSURES (need both to transfer heat/energy, steam engine anyone) for about 90 degrees of the 720 degree combustion cycle, an eighth, the rest of the cycle it is cooling.
I'd suggest CS piston mean piston temperatures at full load are 200 celcius or less.
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Guy Fawkes has just written some of what I was about to !! No way could a piston in ANY engine , let alone a CS , run at red heat !! Long before that the exhaust valve would have melted and the piston seized solid !! Red heat on the piston crown would also vapourise the oil. It' never gonna happen !!
Just a note on oil grades , Lister CS's were originally recommended to run on 10w in Winter and 20w in summer. They simply do not run hot enough to warrant anything heavier , in fact , heavier oil will just cause excess drag and stop oil circulation working efficiently.
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Well my oil is to thick for a start,40weight.Will change to 20.The reason iam taking it apart is to change the conrod.The old one was bent so i levered it straight,but have never been happy about it.No doubt Guy will come round and wack me over the head with a spanner for that :).Does anyone have the tolerance figures for the gap between piston and cylinder?
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fawkes, as usual, has nothing to say constructively. Not even read the thread. no mention of multigrade oil, no mention in replies of piston getting red hot. However lendusaquid has a problem with coking-oil under the piston crown. Only one thing doing that and it is heat. Maybe not that much but enough. Loads of waffle about diesel, but Lenusaquid is NOT using diesel as his fuel, only for starting and shutdown. The MAIN fuel is waste veggie oil + acetone, an entirely different ball game than just using the fuel as indicated by Lister 50 years ago viz 90% boils off by 357 celsius, flash point (min) 55 Celsius. We all know the chip pans do not boil away oil even at 180. They may smoke and ignite easily and explode if water is thrown over them
No one has said you need 1000 degrees to degrade oil. There are plenty out there who have had dipstick oil heaters in their time and have found the oil chars.
Apple wood has been, or was, used for glass-blowing moulds for many a year. They were apparently the bees knees for glass blowing in their day. Yes, pistons do melt. The pulling fraternity will admit that. Usually using alloy pistons though, not cast iron. And over fuelling, of course. Some Perkins engines, at one time were a little prone to piston overheating. Some oils will char around 300. It may well be a matter of not enough in that area to keep the oil circulating, in which case there will likely be wear on the small end bush at an earlier stage than it should happen. The centre of the piston will be the hottest part - however hot that may be.
Fuel will not burn unless it comes in contact with oxygen. Large droplets will protect the inside long enough to cause particulates which will then only combust at high temps and slowly. Compare anthracite with wood.
We are not looking at 'mean piston temps', just maximum in one small area.
Forks, answer the posters problem, explain the deposits, and more importantly stop being negative.
I see nothing constructive in his post at all. Might just as well have kept quiet for all the good points (zero) he has made.
One might wonder why we (or Listers) bother(ed) to cool these engines. 200 degrees Celsius should not even make the paint smoke on a head. We would never warp a head, blow a gasket or any other malady we actually experience with over-heated engines.
We also know that with synthetic oil one can throw away the full flow filter and run only with a bypass type filter with extra fuel economy (due to no pressure drop across the filter). Not something I would necessarily recommend.
All my old tractors have a bypass filter and most are full pressure systems. Most or all started life on straight non-detergent, but they all benefit from detergent oil, due to cleaner running (once the accumulated crud has all been removed) The advantages over gummed rings is remarkable, and modern lubricants are to be recommended wherever they can be accommodated. Oil is cheap. Engine failures are not.
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Just in case you were referring to my comment on oil grade , perhaps I should clarify. I said nothing about the generation of oil to use , just the grade. The grade originally recommended is still appropriate today , but a contemporary specification can certainly used with advantage. Mono grade single viscosity oil can be obtained in modern high detergent Diesel type in the viscosity's I mentioned , but this should not be used in an engine that has not been cleaned out first. Straight oil is not a good idea.
Just to comment further on the original post , I have seen pistons with carboned oil on the underside of the piston crown on petrol and diesel engines that were running fine apart from worn rings and bores. However , I still maintain that piston could never reach red heat for anything other than a few seconds without catastrophic failure. I'm involved in tuning high performance turbo cars and even with outputs of upto 1000 BHP from a 2Ltr , 4 cylinder engine , I still don't see heat issues on pistons unless the fuel air ratio goes too weak.
Lister CS engines running at 650 rpm producing 6 BHP from such large displacement would struggle to have any over heating issues.
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fawkes, as usual, has nothing to say constructively.
That's probably because I don't give a bugger about being popular.
Not even read the thread.
Except I did, every word.
no mention of multigrade oil, no mention in replies of piston getting red hot. However lendusaquid has a problem with coking-oil under the piston crown. Only one thing doing that and it is heat.
No mention till I mentioned em, cos they are all relevant.
Maybe not that much but enough. Loads of waffle about diesel, but Lenusaquid is NOT using diesel as his fuel, only for starting and shutdown. The MAIN fuel is waste veggie oil + acetone, an entirely different ball game than just using the fuel as indicated by Lister 50 years ago viz 90% boils off by 357 celsius, flash point (min) 55 Celsius. We all know the chip pans do not boil away oil even at 180. They may smoke and ignite easily and explode if water is thrown over them
Lister never said or intended the CS run on modern diesel, which wasn't even invented back then.
Fact is they did specify the fuel though, and fact is the OP doesn't have assayed fuel, so fact is the fuel is going to be part of the problem, not the piston temperatures.
No one has said you need 1000 degrees to degrade oil. There are plenty out there who have had dipstick oil heaters in their time and have found the oil chars.
"do pistons get red hot?" see, you're one of them polite but condescending gentleman collector types, you mealymouth it to death and get nowhere fast, fact is what I said, piston temps are nowhere near what people are talking about, piston temps aren't the issue here.
Unless the OP gets told to drop all the bullshit he is never going to find the answer.
Apple wood has been, or was, used for glass-blowing moulds for many a year. They were apparently the bees knees for glass blowing in their day. Yes, pistons do melt. The pulling fraternity will admit that. Usually using alloy pistons though, not cast iron. And over fuelling, of course. Some Perkins engines, at one time were a little prone to piston overheating. Some oils will char around 300. It may well be a matter of not enough in that area to keep the oil circulating, in which case there will likely be wear on the small end bush at an earlier stage than it should happen. The centre of the piston will be the hottest part - however hot that may be.
Fuel will not burn unless it comes in contact with oxygen. Large droplets will protect the inside long enough to cause particulates which will then only combust at high temps and slowly. Compare anthracite with wood.
you're talking out of your ass in an attempt to appear as though you know what you are talking about.
We are not looking at 'mean piston temps', just maximum in one small area.
see above
Forks, answer the posters problem, explain the deposits, and more importantly stop being negative.
I see nothing constructive in his post at all. Might just as well have kept quiet for all the good points (zero) he has made.
what, like you you mean, talking about the OP burning WVO + acetone?
see, you don't know what you're talking about+, maybe you think you do, and maybe you can fool others who don't know any better....
the dude has deposits on the UNDERSIDE OF THE FUCKING PISTON, you know, the side that never sees the WVO or combustion process, the side that for all your rhetoric is in an oxygen starved environment, the side that is even cooler, the side with far lower temperature excursions, the side that gets splashed with, wait for it..... ENGINE LUBE OIL.
Ideally, you know, that non detergent stuff, that has let the crap settle out of suspension, that therefore doesn't carry crap up to the underside of the piston, in a process not dissimilar to an oily stalagtite formation...
One might wonder why we (or Listers) bother(ed) to cool these engines. 200 degrees Celsius should not even make the paint smoke on a head. We would never warp a head, blow a gasket or any other malady we actually experience with over-heated engines.
Oh so bloody superior and oh so bloody stupid at the same time, just what parts of the CS did lister add water cooling to eh? Ever actually thought about that?
I suppose it has literally never occurred to you that a 4.5" bore piston has a 14 inch long piston ring wrapped around it carrying the bulk of the torque, coefficient of linear expansion, bye bye ring gap, bye bye engine, same goes for the head.
your comment, facetious or otherwise, is first year apprentice, not yet graduated from the broom handle, stupid.
We also know that with synthetic oil one can throw away the full flow filter and run only with a bypass type filter with extra fuel economy (due to no pressure drop across the filter). Not something I would necessarily recommend.
"we know"? you got a mouse in your pocket when you say "we"?
cos nobody else knows this, sure, dumbasses do it, hell, dumbasses use toilet rolls for oil filters, but I've never seen it approved anywhere ever by any standards body or engine manufacturer.
feel free to prove me wrong
All my old tractors have a bypass filter and most are full pressure systems. Most or all started life on straight non-detergent, but they all benefit from detergent oil, due to cleaner running (once the accumulated crud has all been removed) The advantages over gummed rings is remarkable, and modern lubricants are to be recommended wherever they can be accommodated. Oil is cheap. Engine failures are not.
see, you're making all these claims again and talking basically bullshit, the way you state it gummed rings are an inevitable by-product of non detergent oil.
which is complete and utter bullshit.
you compare a false example, tractors that aren't worked and aren't subject to a normal maintenance (and oil) regimen (which I'm guessing you don't even know what I'm talking about, I bet you don't even have any flushing or winterising oil in stock, just your precious synth) and the INEVITABLE results of that sort of abuse with a shortcoming in the lube.
toys that are infrequently used do not compare to working stuff that gets cuffed every single day, I've got a pug 405 diesel outside, and an old series 2 landie with BMC 2.2
They both get the same oil at the same time, a trade barrel of 15w40 mineral, in the pug, which is cuffed every day, and therefore filtered every day and condensate (and therefore acidity) driven off every day the oil goes from one year to the next, in the landie which doesn't get much use it has a lot harder time of it.
guess what oil I use in the vtwin motorbike? except it's been parked up for a year, so flushing oil then filled with inhibiting oil.
guess how many gummed rings I have had in my entire life...
and you people wonder why doug (and me in the past) walk away in disgust.
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Anyone know the piston/cylinder clearance?.I would like to check it out before putting back together.
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And here I thought the forum was getting boring! ;D
Stan
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RAB:
i fully understand the lube process inside the lister, how it oils the mains, the big end, and everything else
even if i don't fully buy into how the lister engineers decided to go about it.
and i understand fully that it has been proven to work with the metallurgy of the day, the oils they were using and the
fuel they burned. but...
there needs to be sufficient oil being splashed up to the underside of the piston to provide some assurance of cooling for the piston
crown/head.
assuming all else is proven to be ok with the OP engine, timing correct, injection adequate, and not overloaded while running
i am left with some concern as to whether or not there is sufficient oil being thrown up under the piston, that is why i suggested
checking the oil level to determine for sure there is adequate splash getting up there.
as i state i have no idea how the original determined that the oil level was correct, is there simply a fill plug that you fill till it runs out?
if so is this fill plug on a removable cover? is this cover the original for this engine? if the plug is in a removable cover how can one determine for sure the cover and its fill hole is proper for his engine?
i do know that lister toyed with all sorts of changes over the years, so i would not just assume there is adequate oil without filling to proper level, removing the crankcase cover and seeing for sure it is up just under the big end cap nuts, if it were me i would just so i could
eliminate that possibility.
i have to agree with others that have posted that the 6/1 cannot produce enough heat under normal operation to turn anything red hot
but it is possible that there is some reason that there is not enough oil getting up under the piston crown/head to carry away what heat there is built up there, asking the heat to transfer from the piston to the line then on to the coolant is asking a bit much and does not follow standard engineering practice.
if i recall he also reports that the engine seems tighter after it has been working at load, seems like he needs to determine why this is taking place,, usually this is an early warning sign of something that most generally will shorten the life of an otherwise good engine.
btw,, nice to see GuyFawkes chiming in again
he always livens the discussion here :)
bob g
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Faults need investigation , speculation is not investigation !! However , one likely cause could be worn rings / piston or bore , or all three , causing excessive blow by and heat build up in the piston due to the rings not taking their share away.
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RAB:
i fully understand the lube process inside the lister, how it oils the mains, the big end, and everything else
even if i don't fully buy into how the lister engineers decided to go about it.
and i understand fully that it has been proven to work with the metallurgy of the day, the oils they were using and the
fuel they burned. but...
but, you are insinuating that the lube system is still inadequate, when it patently isn't.
there needs to be sufficient oil being splashed up to the underside of the piston to provide some assurance of cooling for the piston
crown/head.
not all engines rely on splash cooling of the piston, so there doesn't "need" to be any such thing.
you're talking like a "ricer" bob, go faster stripes don't improve the engineering. nor do big bore exhausts or any of that other crap.
assuming all else is proven to be ok with the OP engine, timing correct, injection adequate, and not overloaded while running
i am left with some concern as to whether or not there is sufficient oil being thrown up under the piston, that is why i suggested
checking the oil level to determine for sure there is adequate splash getting up there.
why make that assumption?
the instant you make that assumption you close and lock a bunch of doors and refuse to look behind them.
it is not a logical assumption to make either, splash lube systems have worked perfectly well for a century, sometimes on the same actual engine, but you appear to want to assume that in this case several fundamental laws of physics have changed and there must be something wrong with the design of the splash lube system.
as i state i have no idea how the original determined that the oil level was correct, is there simply a fill plug that you fill till it runs out?
if so is this fill plug on a removable cover? is this cover the original for this engine? if the plug is in a removable cover how can one determine for sure the cover and its fill hole is proper for his engine?
How can you claim to fully understand the CS lube system, and then not know how it works?
You have a split sump and weir, with this system you can put 4 pints behind the weir and 4 gallons in the sump, it doesn't matter what you do, you have to lose all 4 gallons, every last drop, from the sump before the oil level behind the weir changes a millimetre.
You have butterfly nut securing a filler for the sump, if you can see oil there is oil in the sump, you can add oil till it runs out on the ground if you like, you're only filling the sump.
STATIONARY engine, not subject to the things traction or marine engines are, so you can stick to all sorts of bullet proof practices and designs that literally do no have a failure mode, such as weir and sump and splash lube.
What part of this don't you get? The CS lube system (at least as far as the weir/sump and splash) doesn't have a failure mode, which is why engines like mine are half a century and more old and still as sweet as a nut, because it takes real idiots like rab filling them with synthetic detergent oils to eventually kill them.
You can even cut the external oil supply line to the lube pump which supplies the mains etc and not kill it, it will still run.
i do know that lister toyed with all sorts of changes over the years, so i would not just assume there is adequate oil without filling to proper level, removing the crankcase cover and seeing for sure it is up just under the big end cap nuts, if it were me i would just so i could
eliminate that possibility.
like I said, you claim you understand the lister model then make silly mistakes like this, provided you have any oil in the sump you can't help but have the correct level behind the weir.....
the only problem here is self declared experts second guessing what lister said, usually with the excuse "oh, technology has moved on since then" which is a crock of shit because we are not trying to apply a 1930's regime to a 2008 japanese motorbike engine.
the laws of physics haven't moved on.
brains and engineering ability have taken a massive retrograde step.
TO QUOTE LISTER
Fuel MUST be a distillate, not a residual, nor a blend thereof (how many people actually understand that, I ask myself)
specific gravity no greater than 0.88, unless specific exceptions like Texaco 811 diesel gas oil
viscocity not greater than 50 seconds Redwood at 100F
ashphalt not greater than 0.5%
flashpoint not lower than 150F
sulphur not greater than 1%
calorific value not less than 19,000 B Th U / lb
LUBE oil
specific gravity 0.93
open flash 410F
viscocity at 70/140/212F - 1035/112/46 seconds Redwood
pour test 5F ASTM
but hey, FUCK THAT eh, I found this recipe for fuel / lube oil on the internet that you can make out of dead cats and coffee grinds and you filter it through cigarette butts and sanitary towels and it is all a big con by engine makers and big oil there is this guy who gets 100 mpg running on distilled water imagine that and anyway there is this nice english gentleman who owns loads of old tractors and things and he says they spend all day out in the field ploughing and come in better than new because technology has moved on you see and kawasaki jetski oil is ace stuff and...........
i have to agree with others that have posted that the 6/1 cannot produce enough heat under normal operation to turn anything red hot
but it is possible that there is some reason that there is not enough oil getting up under the piston crown/head to carry away what heat there is built up there, asking the heat to transfer from the piston to the line then on to the coolant is asking a bit much and does not follow standard engineering practice.
bob, I grew up around listers, I've seen em working all over the world, especially cs types, I've been to the old factory and have known some of the engineers, and I'm an engineer by trade myself.
let me tell you something.
I do not know for a fact that cs pistons require splash cooling, or that any oil that gets on them is more than merely incidental.
I do not know that because I never asked that question, listers never published that fact, and the only people who could answer it now are dead.
you, and others here, are however assuming something, and then further assuming that that thing ain't happening, and then further assuming what might be the problem, this is known, as not one of you have done any actual documented testing, as pure fantasy, or, more eloquently, pure bullshit.
stop looking for problems that don't exist, they stop you from looking at the obvious answers right in front of your face.
if i recall he also reports that the engine seems tighter after it has been working at load, seems like he needs to determine why this is taking place,, usually this is an early warning sign of something that most generally will shorten the life of an otherwise good engine.
didn't he have a bent rod?
did the guy measure ring gap and bore?
did the guy do any of the other basic diagnostic checks, like first ticking off and eliminating variables, approved grade of fuel, check, approved grade of lube, check, etc...
nope, the guy is presumably running a detergent oil that keeps the crap in suspension, this utterly destroying the fundamental lube system design principles, so oil + crap that should have settled out is getting splashed on the piston, oil is evaporating and crap is depositing like stalactites.
ask me why I said this in reply to the bullshit merchant, go on, ask me how often I have seen it, and ask me how often it was cured by switching to the right oil after flushing and cleaning.
or don't, I don't care.
btw,, nice to see GuyFawkes chiming in again
he always livens the discussion here :)
bob g
it isn't a discussion bob, it is a bunch of blind people being led around by the nose by a bunch of bullshitters.
when I was more active here I scanned and provided copies in pdf format of the lister cs books and CAV books and so on, and they tell you EVERYTHING you need to know, except people don't like that because first and foremost they aren't looking for the truth, they are looking for an answer that says that they can continue to run the fucking engine on KFC hot wings and they don't want to know about anything else, even when a few months pass and they come back bleating about how such and such isn't exactly right and does anyone know what the problem is?
ask me why I quid computer tech support 13 years ago, "yeah, pack the computer up in the box it came in and take it back to the shop"
"is it really as bad as that?"
"yes, I'm afraid so."
"so what's do I tell them in the shop then?"
"tell them you are too fucking stupid to own a computer."
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Faults need investigation , speculation is not investigation !! However , one likely cause could be worn rings / piston or bore , or all three , causing excessive blow by and heat build up in the piston due to the rings not taking their share away.
Generally (and taking into consideration your earlier post in this thread) you're right, however, in this case the CS lube system and lube and fuel oil spec, if adhered to, make such things an irrellevance.
Sure, the OP may also have worn rings (chromed bores didn't usually wear) but even so the bitch would keep chugging along, if it starts it will run.
You, and bob, in your day jobs know better than what you are posting here.
I mentioned the Pug 405 diesel and the landie with BMC 2.2 diesel, both running on the same 15W40 mineral oil, and due to duty cycles they both reacts differently.
the bullshitter talks about oil being cheaper than wrecking an engine, I've been sitting thinking since last night, I can't recall ever wrecking an engine, the Pug is a prime candidate....
I bought it nearly 3 years ago on fleabay for 199 quid, in mileage terms it's about 10k short of being due a cambelt, in age terms it is overdue, but it is a false economy to fit a cambelt to a car I paid less than 200 quid for 3 years ago.
The engine is a 4 pot non turbo 2 litre, typically i change gear at 1500 rpm and typically I don't exceed 2500 rpm, except on long motorway runs where 3000 rpm is about 80 mph.
Now and again it gets to tow, when it tows it is usually a significant weight, like another car on a trailer, for 200 miles or more.
When it ain't towing it gets cuffed, I may be bumbling along at 1200 rpm but I can floor that sucker and cuff it instead of changing down and caning it.
You know what, it basically doesn't burn oil, it is a diesel and it likes to be cuffed, though on the one hand I can't ever remember blowing an engine (the "sock" honda 750's back in the day don't count, we were trying to get stupid power out of them, and even then it was always the stock mickey mouse camshaft bearings that were the problem) and the present abuse the pug gets makes it a serious contender for abandonment by the side of the road with a snapped cambelt, but on the other hand, I don't know, I've got about 650 miles to do this week, and I'm not particularly worried, and I don't have breakdown / recover insurance, that old cambelt may well hang on in there another 100k miles, I only open the bonnet to top up the windscreen washer.
The moral here is people freak about things that don't matter much, while blithely ignoring the fundamental things that do matter a great deal.
THis is a sub 200 quid car, but I don't run veg oil + acetone, just pump diesel, and I don't run esoteric lube oil, just trade barrel 15W40 mineral, and most important of all I cuff the engine every single day of its life, cuff, not cane, flog or abuse, cuff as in work.
So far, apart from the annual cost of oil and fuel filters, a gallon of oil, and a gallon of pump diesel every sixty miles or so, this car has cost me nothing, not a red cent, and it literally could not be more reliable or practical.
my motorcycle, well, that had flushing oil run through and then inhibiting oil, because I took it off the road to do a complete rewire and redesign, not touching the engine though, and what should have been a two month project got sidelined and now 2 years have passed, and I really MUST get it sorted, but the fact is it has a different regime and gets treated different and doesn't suffer because of it.
Now the landie with BMC 2.2, there is a case it point, it is neither cuffed regularly nor is it prepped for being idle, maybe every other week I'll fire it up and bimble around a wee bit, but it doesn't get worked like it should, and you can tell.
Not because it is older tech than the pug or the motorbike, just because it ain't cuffed regular, and if I was dumb enough to fill its tank with WVO it would act even more unhappy about its lot in life.
There isn't a damn thing wrong with the landie, or the fuel, or the lube, the only thing that make it unhappy is being treated like a toy.
But, it'll get there, I have too many other projects on the go, but it will get there, and in the meantime despite being unhappy it isn't deteriorating, because everything that goes into it or is done to it is within spec, not some half assed idea that came of teh intarweb.
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Fawkes , I think u and I might get on well !!
These days I try to avoid getting dragged into forum arguments created by keyboard engineers , because I learned in the early days of the interweb that there are non more deaf than those that don't wanna listen !!
I have to admit that I'm basing my comments on general practice as I'm still on the bottom rung of the CS ladder !!
I'm really interested in your comments on the use of non detergent oil in the CS , my 1st inclination would be to use a mono grade diesel detergent oil of the correct viscosity ?
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Fawkes , I think u and I might get on well !!
These days I try to avoid getting dragged into forum arguments created by keyboard engineers , because I learned in the early days of the interweb that there are non more deaf than those that don't wanna listen !!
I have to admit that I'm basing my comments on general practice as I'm still on the bottom rung of the CS ladder !!
I'm really interested in your comments on the use of non detergent oil in the CS , my 1st inclination would be to use a mono grade diesel detergent oil of the correct viscosity ?
I see you've bought a CS SOM like mine, so no indian clone wiredness, you have a weir and sump with positive displacement pump to mains etc.
The weir and sump system is designed (with the vast bulk of the oil being stored in the sump) so that non detergent oils can deposit crap out of suspension in the tranquil pool of the sump.
You can indeed run a CS on detergent oil, but being aware that doing so prevents crap dropping out of suspension you need to add an extra lube oil pump and full flow particulate filter.
Why? Why go to the extra expense and hassle to get something that doesn't work any better than the original, which actually works worse as it saps extra power and adds extra modes of failure.
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If you're new to CS, nota bene, the external oil pump has a handle, unless the set was run in the last couple of hours, use the handle to prime the system, at least a dozen full strokes.
Change the oil every three months regardless.
If you in engineering as a business here is an interesting little experiment for you, I'm not going to tell you the answers because it only works when you learn it for yourself.
Get two small jars, thoroughly cleaned.
Put exactly 0.5 litres of oil in each jar, one old fashioned monograde non-detergent mineral oil, one synthetic detergent multigrade.
Put exactly 5cc (use a syringe) of distilled water into each jar, stir well with a spoon.
Put one new shell bearing in each jar.
write the date on the jars and put them on a shelf somewhere open to the atmosphere
come back in three months
MOST IMPORTANT, TAKE PICTURES with the jars backlit
assay the oil, pay particular attention to acidity and metals leeched from the shells
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without spoiling the results, it is pretty obvious that detergent oils hold everything in suspension, so do not self purify, it should also be pretty obvious that synthetic oils are more robust, so continue to look and act like oil long after they turn significantly acidic.
You want ample evidence of human stupidity just look at people talking about these very processes to purify WVO etc before it becomes a suitable fuel, then blithely discarding this observable fact when it comes to lube oil.
The greatest feature of monoweight non detergent mineral oil is that when it is turning into crap it looks like it.
Multigrade synthetics can be filtered and cleaned and they look as good as new.
DISTILLATE, not RESIDUAL, the magic words from Lister that everyone ignores, applies to lube oil and fuel equally.
Distillate is heated, evaporated, condensed and collected, all temperature controlled.
EVERYTHING ELSE, including alfa laval centrifuging, leaving 6 months, filtering through bentonite, is by definition not distalliate, but residual.
synthetics ARE BETTER than minerals, IN CERTAIN APPLICATIONS, I wouldn't run a Honda CBX which circulates the entire oil capacity in six seconds at redline on mineral.
A CS is not a CBX.
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The greatest feature of monoweight non detergent mineral oil is that when it is turning into crap it looks like it.
I forgot, the other greatest feture of monoweight non detergent mineral oil is that when it has turned into crap you remove it, wipe the sump clean, and put the old oil in the old oil contained, which you just emptied into the fuel tank, because this new lot of old engine oil will self clean by settling, and the top bit is then clean enough to go into the fuel tank.
with detergent oils you have to filter the bejeeesus out of them before you can shove them through an injection pump
synthtic oils you can never burn, they will always make shellac and other weird combustion by products.
ahhh, I miss running my old B44 on Castrol R, oil change every 1000 and the settled old oil went into the fuel at 50:1, just about worked out right for the next 1000...
that engine was both bulletproof and sweet as a nut, almost unheard of for an OHV BSA single running high compression, smelled beautiful too.
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Interesting stuff !! Being the curious type I will indeed try your experiment.
I've been going thru all my old Stationary Engine mags recently and found a superb 2 part article about a guy that ran a CS SOM for 10 years from 1979 in a remote farm house without grid. There's a huge amount of really useful info and I noticed that he used one of the specific oils that Lister originally recommended , namely Texaco Ursa Super LA , in 10w or 20w as appropriate. Must look that one up to check the spec.
Just gonna look for those CS and CAV manuals u PDF'd on here , good bedtime reading !!
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ahhh, I miss running my old B44 on Castrol R, oil change every 1000 and the settled old oil went into the fuel at 50:1, just about worked out right for the next 1000...
that engine was both bulletproof and sweet as a nut, almost unheard of for an OHV BSA single running high compression, smelled beautiful too.
I'm a bike nut to !! Just in the process of restoring my '52 Vincent Rapide. Have quite a few other's tho , my taste's are quite eclectic ! From CZ's to Vincent !! Ducati's are my main passion though , particularly the 60's and 70's bevel cam singles. One of my favourite riding experiences was my 1922 Triumph 550 SD , everything was manual , handchange 3 speed box , etc , compression braking was better than the actual brakes !! One thing I really liked was the total loss oil system , one pump every 10 miles or so depending on engine load !! Gave u a real sense of being part of the machine. Thing is , I sold it in a fit of mental aberration when someone offered me silly money for it !! Arrrrgh !! So , now I keep looking for the holy grail of Vintage Triumphs , the Ricardo 4 valve !! Thing is , trying to find one under £10k is looking impossible.
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Hasn't that point just been made ?
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I'm a bike nut to !! Just in the process of restoring my '52 Vincent Rapide. Have quite a few other's tho , my taste's are quite eclectic ! From CZ's to Vincent !! Ducati's are my main passion though , particularly the 60's and 70's bevel cam singles. One of my favourite riding experiences was my 1922 Triumph 550 SD , everything was manual , handchange 3 speed box , etc , compression braking was better than the actual brakes !! One thing I really liked was the total loss oil system , one pump every 10 miles or so depending on engine load !! Gave u a real sense of being part of the machine. Thing is , I sold it in a fit of mental aberration when someone offered me silly money for it !! Arrrrgh !! So , now I keep looking for the holy grail of Vintage Triumphs , the Ricardo 4 valve !! Thing is , trying to find one under £10k is looking impossible.
ooer missus, original 900ss desmo's were my ride of choice back in the day, though a couple of years ago I ended up with a full raceco / termignoni guzzi 1100 sport, the proper red one with carbs... had to sell it, that or kiss my licence bye bye... bought that off dr john, of norton single tuning fame.
current sled is an old TR1 which has been modified a wee bit, as a sort of homage to the old vinnies (even has HRD footrests which sends gentleman vinni owners apoplectic) some pics on page 2 of the gallery
https://surfbaud.dyndns.org/sites/photo%20album/index.php?twg_album=bikes&twg_offset=0
usual warning, home web server on cable modem so not too snappy, not all my bikes by a long shot btw.
worst selling mistakes I ever made was a 120 panther and an old sidevalve bsa v twin that I never actually rode, but swapped for a running jampot norton.
never actually run a vinnie myself, but for a couple of years was forever bumping into the bowden boy at various locations through europe, riding his dad's old prince, dad was chairman of the vmcc back then, but used to borrow a mates comet once in a while.
as for the ricardo...
http://www.yesterdays.nl/triumph-1923-ricardo-p-394.html
way too much for a trumpet
sure they'd take the vinnie off your hands... vbg
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Using single grade non detergent by the way.New Indian piston and rings.New dry liner in an old block.I did give the piston to the company fitting the liner.
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Hasn't that point just been made ?
Sorry for being a bit slow ..... but the point was made that 'non detergent' is better than 'detergent'. The part that I am concerned about is that one product is specifically produced for diesel engines and the other product is for things like lawnmowers (gasoline). I don't know what difference there is if the label says 'diesel' so I just want to clarify.
Jens
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Hasn't that point just been made ?
Sorry for being a bit slow ..... but the point was made that 'non detergent' is better than 'detergent'. The part that I am concerned about is that one product is specifically produced for diesel engines and the other product is for things like lawnmowers (gasoline). I don't know what difference there is if the label says 'diesel' so I just want to clarify.
Jens
You need a non detergent , mono grade. I did some checking around earlier and most modern mono grade Diesel service oil is either low or full detergent. However , non detergent mono grade Diesel is available but you may have to order from a lubricant specialist. Thinking aloud though , normally the main reason for using a Diesel quality oil in a Diesel engine is that they pollute the lubricating oil with diesel fuel and diesel service oil has additives to neutralise the effects of this. However , if the engine is running on veg oil or WMO etc this wouldn't be a problem so gas engine oil should be fine.
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Hasn't that point just been made ?
Sorry for being a bit slow ..... but the point was made that 'non detergent' is better than 'detergent'. The part that I am concerned about is that one product is specifically produced for diesel engines and the other product is for things like lawnmowers (gasoline). I don't know what difference there is if the label says 'diesel' so I just want to clarify.
Jens
Jens,
I'm not as fast as I used to be either and worrying doesn't help.... so don't worry about it. :D
As far as 'diesel formula' lube oil I believe there is an additive package that allows the oil to tolerate much more carbon in suspension. It may also have a stronger EP formulation to maintain film under the increased rod bearing pressures seen from higher compression of a diesel over a gas engine.
BTW, since I learned the truth about multigrade oil I have switched from using the recommended 15W40 in the 4-cyl VW diesel Rabbit engine in my DIY power plant in preference to straight SAE 30W diesel lube oil. I buy it in 20 litre pails from Wall Mart. I use the same oil in my Jiang Dong 175A and the mighty Changfa 1115.
That straight weight 30 (Wall Marts recycled cheap brand with the green label) must be some good oil because my 1.5L VW, 9 kW plant ingested all of it's own lube oil through the valve cover breather after I made a plumbing change earlier this summer while at a 4 kW constant load at 1800 RPM and ran for at least 30 minutes with zero oil pressure after the stage of sucking foam for an unknown period of time. I have no low oil pressure shutdown and the engine was unattended at the time. OOPS!!!! After installing a DIY oil trap in the breather line and an oil and filter change the engine still runs like a top and does not use any crankcase oil, nor does it smoke. I note a very slight increase in tappet noise since the event. No low end noise whatsoever. I've still got 50 PSI hot oil pressure at 1800 RPM and 110 PSI cold. Talk about dodging a bullet!
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I'm a bike nut to !! Just in the process of restoring my '52 Vincent Rapide. Have quite a few other's tho , my taste's are quite eclectic ! From CZ's to Vincent !! Ducati's are my main passion though , particularly the 60's and 70's bevel cam singles. One of my favourite riding experiences was my 1922 Triumph 550 SD , everything was manual , handchange 3 speed box , etc , compression braking was better than the actual brakes !! One thing I really liked was the total loss oil system , one pump every 10 miles or so depending on engine load !! Gave u a real sense of being part of the machine. Thing is , I sold it in a fit of mental aberration when someone offered me silly money for it !! Arrrrgh !! So , now I keep looking for the holy grail of Vintage Triumphs , the Ricardo 4 valve !! Thing is , trying to find one under £10k is looking impossible.
ooer missus, original 900ss desmo's were my ride of choice back in the day, though a couple of years ago I ended up with a full raceco / termignoni guzzi 1100 sport, the proper red one with carbs... had to sell it, that or kiss my licence bye bye... bought that off dr john, of norton single tuning fame.
current sled is an old TR1 which has been modified a wee bit, as a sort of homage to the old vinnies (even has HRD footrests which sends gentleman vinni owners apoplectic) some pics on page 2 of the gallery
https://surfbaud.dyndns.org/sites/photo%20album/index.php?twg_album=bikes&twg_offset=0
usual warning, home web server on cable modem so not too snappy, not all my bikes by a long shot btw.
worst selling mistakes I ever made was a 120 panther and an old sidevalve bsa v twin that I never actually rode, but swapped for a running jampot norton.
never actually run a vinnie myself, but for a couple of years was forever bumping into the bowden boy at various locations through europe, riding his dad's old prince, dad was chairman of the vmcc back then, but used to borrow a mates comet once in a while.
as for the ricardo...
http://www.yesterdays.nl/triumph-1923-ricardo-p-394.html
way too much for a trumpet
sure they'd take the vinnie off your hands... vbg
Beautiful example and I'd love it , but , as you say that price is dreamland !! Panther 120 , the Lister of the bike world !! Had a 900SS bevel Ducati , dropped it in France and although it was rideable there was enough damage for it to be written off. I did a deal with the insurance company , bought the salvage for a song and built myself an NCR rep !! Then I had another mental abberation , sold it and bought a Honda CB1100RC !! I want the NCR back !! Strange you mention a V Twin BSA , I would also love a Y13 ? I think thats the 750 OHV V Twin , but they fetch silly money now.
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I'm a bike nut to !! Just in the process of restoring my '52 Vincent Rapide. Have quite a few other's tho , my taste's are quite eclectic ! From CZ's to Vincent !! Ducati's are my main passion though , particularly the 60's and 70's bevel cam singles. One of my favourite riding experiences was my 1922 Triumph 550 SD , everything was manual , handchange 3 speed box , etc , compression braking was better than the actual brakes !! One thing I really liked was the total loss oil system , one pump every 10 miles or so depending on engine load !! Gave u a real sense of being part of the machine. Thing is , I sold it in a fit of mental aberration when someone offered me silly money for it !! Arrrrgh !! So , now I keep looking for the holy grail of Vintage Triumphs , the Ricardo 4 valve !! Thing is , trying to find one under £10k is looking impossible.
ooer missus, original 900ss desmo's were my ride of choice back in the day, though a couple of years ago I ended up with a full raceco / termignoni guzzi 1100 sport, the proper red one with carbs... had to sell it, that or kiss my licence bye bye... bought that off dr john, of norton single tuning fame.
current sled is an old TR1 which has been modified a wee bit, as a sort of homage to the old vinnies (even has HRD footrests which sends gentleman vinni owners apoplectic) some pics on page 2 of the gallery
https://surfbaud.dyndns.org/sites/photo%20album/index.php?twg_album=bikes&twg_offset=0
usual warning, home web server on cable modem so not too snappy, not all my bikes by a long shot btw.
worst selling mistakes I ever made was a 120 panther and an old sidevalve bsa v twin that I never actually rode, but swapped for a running jampot norton.
never actually run a vinnie myself, but for a couple of years was forever bumping into the bowden boy at various locations through europe, riding his dad's old prince, dad was chairman of the vmcc back then, but used to borrow a mates comet once in a while.
as for the ricardo...
http://www.yesterdays.nl/triumph-1923-ricardo-p-394.html
way too much for a trumpet
sure they'd take the vinnie off your hands... vbg
Beautiful example and I'd love it , but , as you say that price is dreamland !! Panther 120 , the Lister of the bike world !! Had a 900SS bevel Ducati , dropped it in France and although it was rideable there was enough damage for it to be written off. I did a deal with the insurance company , bought the salvage for a song and built myself an NCR rep !! Then I had another mental abberation , sold it and bought a Honda CB1100RC !! I want the NCR back !! Strange you mention a V Twin BSA , I would also love a Y13 ? I think thats the 750 OHV V Twin , but they fetch silly money now.
My dad used to race a BSA Gold Star back in the day (when all this were fields), I've only ever seen one in real life once and it was a nice piece of kit. Many's the time he wished he didn't sell it (and me too cos I'd have inherited it sooner or later).
He also had a ducati with a sidecar that he used for courting my mum - that would be unheard of nowadays.
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Goldies are indeed iconic machines. I would love a DBD34 RRT2 Clubman , also a Velocette Venom Thruxton with the full fairing , but , I wanted my Vincent Rapide more and my wallet doesn't equal my desires !!
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I have produced a couple of pages from the 1953 6/1 Lister manual which tells you which oil to use. Lister 100% state use heavy duty detergent oil because of the higher sulphur content in the diesel fuel are they wrong. I dont think so. This information remained the same in all the later manuals for the CS engine right up to the latest genuine lister manual I own which was printed in 1982.
On my own setup a 8/1 engined startomatic I use HD30 diesel engine oil and a full flow filter and change the oil every 2 months.
(http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo27/listeroil/1953oil.jpg)[/img]
(http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo27/listeroil/1953oil1.jpg)[/img]
Mick
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I think Jens is going to need to share his crow recipe. ;)
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Hasn't that point just been made ?
Sorry for being a bit slow ..... but the point was made that 'non detergent' is better than 'detergent'. The part that I am concerned about is that one product is specifically produced for diesel engines and the other product is for things like lawnmowers (gasoline). I don't know what difference there is if the label says 'diesel' so I just want to clarify.
Jens
Jens,
I'm not as fast as I used to be either and worrying doesn't help.... so don't worry about it. :D
As far as 'diesel formula' lube oil I believe there is an additive package that allows the oil to tolerate much more carbon in suspension. It may also have a stronger EP formulation to maintain film under the increased rod bearing pressures seen from higher compression of a diesel over a gas engine.
BTW, since I learned the truth about multigrade oil I have switched from using the recommended 15W40 in the 4-cyl VW diesel Rabbit engine in my DIY power plant in preference to straight SAE 30W diesel lube oil. I buy it in 20 litre pails from Wall Mart. I use the same oil in my Jiang Dong 175A and the mighty Changfa 1115.
That straight weight 30 (Wall Marts recycled cheap brand with the green label) must be some good oil because my 1.5L VW, 9 kW plant ingested all of it's own lube oil through the valve cover breather after I made a plumbing change earlier this summer while at a 4 kW constant load at 1800 RPM and ran for at least 30 minutes with zero oil pressure after the stage of sucking foam for an unknown period of time. I have no low oil pressure shutdown and the engine was unattended at the time. OOPS!!!! After installing a DIY oil trap in the breather line and an oil and filter change the engine still runs like a top and does not use any crankcase oil, nor does it smoke. I note a very slight increase in tappet noise since the event. No low end noise whatsoever. I've still got 50 PSI hot oil pressure at 1800 RPM and 110 PSI cold. Talk about dodging a bullet!
You never used that low oil presure switch I sent you Rob?
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Listeroil......The quote from the Lister manual (mine is the same) states that the "filters" must receive frequent attention during this initial period."
I don't see any deviation from the "filtered machines use detergent oil, non-filtered machines use non detergent oil" philosophy.
The logic is unassailable, detergent oil keeps crap in suspension, non detergent oil lets the crap settle out in the sump.
My 6/1 Lister has a sump (which was full of crap so that part of the equations works) but doesn't have any filters (the strainer isn't called a filter by Lister, nor is it). What's the problem with understanding this simple bit of logic?
If your Lister(oid) has a filter, use detergent oil. If it doesn't have a filter, use non-detergent oil. Seems simple enough to understand!
Stan
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Can't argue with that !!!
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You never used that low oil presure switch I sent you Rob?
Been way too busy to think about it. Fact is the generator is useable in it's present form with no control panel yet made and just a clip lead to the battery as a on-off switch from the fuel solenoid in the IP. A second 'clip lead' is the glow plug rail and a third clip lead is for the starter. When I built it, once I got to that point I had to proceed to the next project. With the demands on my time round-tuits are very precious. I try to run a large physical plant here and those 200 guys that are supposed to show up for work every day never do, so I have to do everything myself. As a result stuff gets neglected a lot. I know it's my own responsibility and if the engine dies an early death it is my own fault but I'm clearly a bit overwhelmed and way overloaded these daze.
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I don't see any deviation from the "filtered machines use detergent oil, non-filtered machines use non detergent oil" philosophy.
I don't see any deviation from using improved technology. Perhaps somebody can supply me with the oil filter part numbers from the appropriate parts manual?
The logic is unassailable, detergent oil keeps crap in suspension, non detergent oil lets the crap settle out in the sump.
You are quite right, but not completely. The 'crap' kept in suspension is regarded as much, much less harmful (even to the point of being harmless) than if it were in suspension in a non detergent oil. The size range is completely different (probably by several orders of magnitude). Any large 'crap' will settle from a detergent oil just as it does in a non detergent oil.
This 'crap' as you call it is not filtered out in any modern engine by the normal full flow filter. A full flow filter able to do that would present such a high pressure drop as to be pretty well useless and, furthermore, would block so quickly that the bypass valve in most filters would be operational long before the normal filter change. Modern engines also circulate much less service volume than an older vintage design ( more flow, therefore much higher turnover or faster circulation of the oil). Sludge, as you call it, was also produced in petrol engines as well. I have had several where the oil slinger was running in a narrow 'groove of lube' without apparent harm for a long time. They were built to last even with abuse!!
The 'crap' that is collected by a full flow filter is several microns or more (probably greater than 10microns in many applications). That is the sizes which damage engines and those will still settle in the sump - just not so much of it. To say nothing settles if a detergent oil is used is utter rubbish. The sub-micron colloidal suspended particles just keep circulating. The heavy particles will settle. The large oil capacity and relatively low circulation speed lends itself to that.
Now, a Lendusaquid's Lister may have one or two (or perhaps more) problems. First the amount of lube thrown up to the underside of the piston crown may be so little that it is evaporated or charred, both leaving a deposit that is not wanted. Second the piston may be getting hotter than anticipated when using veggie as fuel. Maybe it is thinner at the crown than a proper original Lister piston (I wouldn't be surprised). It certainly would not need to get anywhere near 1000degrees Celsius or Fahrenheit to degrade oil, and nobody on this thread has suggested it gets that hot.
Now lets get this straight. There will be circulating sludge before it actually settles out in the sump. It will be less, but it will be there. The piston will be running at near maximum temperature (whatever that might be) if the engine running at maximum power for long periods. OK the engine is designed for that (and it should not seriously affect longevity). If the oil is charring (due to low quality oil?) change it. If it is due to 'higher than normal' temperatures, change the oil or the conditions which have caused that increased temperature. If it is lack of oil flow to that area then that obvioudsly needs investigation and improvement. The small end bearing relies on that splash lubrication as well.
If the engine is tight, that may mean the tolerances between piston and bore are less than design, or lubrication is marginal, or perhaps even the ring gaps are marginal, or parts are running too hot.
These are all possibilities/suggestions, just as trying a synthetic oil - which will be more tolerant of higher temperatures - for instance turbos do operate at elevated temperatures and the bearings have been 'cooked' in the past due to poor quality lubricants or even with good quality lubricants and operators not allowing time for the heat to be dissipated before removing the oil supply (turning off engine), or simply leaving the thing spinning at huge rpms with no oil flow.
There is no reason to think that oil changes should be lengthened by using higher quality oil. This is often related to the combustion products which invariably contaminate the oil, but also operating conditions, such as temperature, stop/start cycles etc. all play a part. Lendusaquid may well be using a vey low sulphur fuel and that might well influence the oil change interval.
If your Lister(oid) has a filter, use detergent oil. If it doesn't have a filter, use non-detergent oil. Seems simple enough to understand!
A no brainer really. Follow the manufacturers instructions. Don't make up your own rules unless you are prepared to stand by the consequences. A full-flow filter has absolutely nothing to do with it. It does not filter out suspended coloidal particles. They will pass straight through the filter medium. That is how they are supposed to work. How many people have to be told how many times before this sinks in! A full flow filter does not collect colloidal suspended matter from a detergent oil. It only collects LARGE particles which cause wear in the engine.
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On a similar note, there is also utter rubbish talked on this board about the clearances for big end bearings in Lister engines. The manual states absolutely and unambiguously 'less than 3 thou.', yet there are a stubborn minority who insist 3 thou is what it should be set to. The manual is clear. The big end clearance should not be set at more than 3 thou. and almost 3 thou less is perfectly adequate and is what should be aimed for - free, with no binding. Yes the engine will tolerate more, but the manufacturer gives that value for maximum service. If the manual says detergent it means it. If they were wrong, there would have been inumerable claims for broken engines.
There are no crankshaft oil seals, as such, on a Lister 6/1. It relies on negative pressure in the crankcase to prevent oil seepage. This may not be the case with TRBs. Any neoprene or other manufactured seals may expand/contract depending on the lubricant. That is well known - lots of engines became leaky when changed to synthetics before the seal technology advanced to keep up with the different lubes. Not a problem now. Same with detergent or non detergent. Some think that detergent must mean multigrade. It most certainly does not.
A mono-grade oil will only have it's rated viscosity when hot. It will be much thicker when cold. The additive package in multigrade oils is there simply to improve the viscosity at cold temperatures (the W bit of the spec) to improve lubrication (highest wear rate in an engine happens at start-up from cold, before the engine tolerances have settled, and reduced lubrication due to the oil flow (or not) and characteristics , as the case may be and due to cylinder 'wash' from unburned fuel. Viscosity is very much temperature related.
Regards to those who actually read the small print, RAB
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RAB:
sorry i missed your earlier responce to my post, my puter took a dump and is in the shop
and therefore i am using my daughters laptop and missed a day or two.
anyway, i am sorry i blew your dress up around your neck :)
i will defer to those with vastly more experience with the original listers, and maybe that includes you on
certain points,,, however
i will not simply roll over and play dead when it comes to a few points,
one being the need for oil splash to cool the piston, this is a concern with every internal combustion engine that
was ever made (at least the ones that were successful)
the original poster talked of the engine becoming tighter after it had been run and voiced concern whether there was
sufficient piston to bore clearance.
i think we can assume that the oem made the bore near perfect as well as the piston being properly sized as well, so
if it is getting tight when hot is a good indication that there is some fault with cooling allowing the piston to overgrow the
oem clearance spec.
i am not suggesting that this is the only possible reason for the engine getting tighter, only mentioned one area that might be
investigated to eliminate that possible cause. surely there are other area's that should be checked first, things like timeing issues, injector spray, fuel type etc etc.
as for splash lube, yes i know it works on many engines, and has been successful, but
to my knowlege the method that lister used was somewhat unique as it relates to big end oiling.
yes the system worked well with the oem setup, which includes the oils they spec'd, the fuels they spec'd, the load
that it was rated for, "and" the original metallurgy of the big end brgs (metallurgy which has changed over the years)
the primary reason i don't like the oem oiling system for the big end is based on the experience of those running listeroids
which use the same oem design, but modern brgs metallurgy, modern oils, and fuels,, and it does not work as it did on the originals!
i have seen many examples of the top shells being beaten to death and needing replacment far sooner than i would expect
the oem lister ever required.
if you were to do a bit of study on proper big end oiling, the need for establishing a hyd wedge (and maintaining it) it becomes
apparent that those two top feed holes and their accompanied grooves destroy the wedge that is formed which in turn shortens
the brg life.
many years ago the cummins small cam engines used to use a top hole to provide oil through a rifling to the wrist pin, those
brg needed replacement every 75k miles (if english origin) or 150k miles (if japanese origin). cummins found that the placement of this hole was in line with the peak cylinder pressure and caused a breakdown of the hydraulic wedge,, effectively beating the top shell to the point of delamintation of the brg. In the late 70's they changed the design and moved the rifle hole offset about 30 degrees with the result being brgs that lasted twice as long with no other changes being made. later they found in the big cam1 or maybe bigcam2 engines the change in the hole location allowed them to reduce the oil pressure from 60psi hot to ~30psi hot without loss of brg longevity.
engineering text goes into much detail on not putting any holes in the top shell near the top where cylinder pressure is high, and not to put any grooves in the brg at all.
i know this works, i have seen it. i also know of a supplier in canada that special ordered some brgs for his engines that had no holes or grooves and installed them with a hollow dipper. the result has been a dramatically improvment in the longevity of his engines and he runs them very hard in continuous duty running waste veggie oil.
as for piston cooling, there must be some oil being thrown up under the piston to aid in cooling, maybe not much for a 3/1 and maybe even not much for a 6/1 on moderate loads,, but
if he has some coking under the head of the piston he has a problem, and therefore he needs to explore and find the reason why
this is happening. if there is sufficient oil up there it will cool the piston and not coke, even if he is running advanced timing, overfueling or running some hot fuel mix. certainly if the timeing is off, running under heavy loads, hot fuel, etc. he will need more oil splash to cool the piston.
i only offered one possible area to look into that being is the oil level sufficient to be picked up and sprayed up under the piston,
i did not suggest this as the only possible answer, just simply one that can easily be checked. i would not want to hear back later that
the engine was made up of various parts (unknown to him) that might not be as you or i suspect, and therefore be lower on oil than it should be. i think i mentioned earlier about a friend with a twin petteroid that filled the new engine to the full mark, and later found that the engine was about 2 quarts low (after removing the side cover and finding the oil pump pickup tube only partially submerged) because the dipstick was from another type of petter or was marked wrong.
sometimes it is the stupid details we just assume to be correct that come back to cause us the most grief.
to conclude
if i had an original lister, and original lister brgs, running a non detergent oil of the proper weight i like you would just run it.
however here in the states original listers are like finding a 53 corvette with 100 original miles locked in some old ladies barn!
we gotta live with listeroids and as such have to accept that there are improvments that can and in my opinion should be done
to improve the longevity of the engine.
also i have been around for a very long time and know a thing or two about diesel engines in general, and proper engineering practice in particular.
btw,, i still don't like the oem tophole fed big end brg design, even if it has proven sucessful!
as i am sure there are things you don't like about some other engine design.
bob g
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mobile_bob,
No, not ruffled my feathers :) Someone else wears the dress!!
Did you read Listerboy's posting? I hope forks didn't miss it.
I would be in agreement about the wedge but that might also be a little time dependent as well. Don't know.
I kept away from timing 'cos I know not what the fuel might actually be. Might even be late and still burning stronly as it exits the (pre) combustion chamber.
Piston cooling? Not a clue as to whether it is needed on a lister or not. Will all help as long as there is not too much oil being flung onto the cylinders.
Listers and listeroids - many are not even comparable with a proper Lister by the sounds of things.
top shells being beaten to death
Probably got that 3 thou+ clearance a lot seem to think is correct. Maybe too little tin etc in the white metal used by the Indians.
hollow dipper
Inclined to agree that might be an improvement. No need to try it on mine though. Works OK. Proper Lister.
oil level sufficient
You can now see how the lube delivery works from the schematic. Simple and idiot proof (nearly).
We can all disagree with the way things are done but what might wrankle is the bland assumption that everything that was right then is still the only right answer now. Often it still is perfectly OK - and much less likely to fail than the modern alternative. It would certainly have been much better by now if the indians had not simply made a sub-standard copy and modified variants of the original. Their good copies might have surpassed the originals in quality and longevity (with modern attributes), but unfortunately that is not the case.
Regards, RAB
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I'm not sure that there was an overall design philosophy at Lister's when it comes to lube.(Hell, did I put that in writing?? :o :o ) Singles had the sump, twins had the pump pickup at the lowest point, guaranteeing sludge recirculation. I've never seen an original 6/1 or 12/2 with a factory fitted filter (open to proof though!) but the factory recommended detergent oil. (Some?)Twins had hollow dippers, singles had solid.
I suspect that the priming lever was just a carry over from the "L" as it was also used to prime the carb.If Mr Lister thought it so important, wouldn't he have put one on the twins?
Were singles and twins designed by the same people?
Cheers,
Brian
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"A mono-grade oil will only have it's rated viscosity when hot. It will be much thicker when cold. The additive package in multigrade oils is there simply to improve the viscosity at cold temperatures (the W bit of the spec)"
Not so , multi grade lubes have VI (viscosity improvers) which bestow them with their wide viscosity range properties. The VI actually increase the HOT viscosity , not cold. So , just for clarity , a 15w40 , for example , has a viscosity of 15 weight at cold start and 40 weight at operating temperature.
It gets more complex with synthetics , depending on the type , the highest quality syns have intrinsic multi grade properties by virtue of the base stock used so can be formulated to the required grade without VI additives. This is why they are so impervious to break down. Some syns do have VI additives , although never approaching the level use in mineral oils. This is one of the reasons why mongrades are specified in certain applications , they can never break down below their specified viscosity , whereas a mineral multi grade can break down to it's lowest viscosity rating when the VI additives have sheared down.
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If you want to know how much oil gets thrown around inside the Lister(oid), then take a look.
A few years ago - on this forum - this topic was going much the same as it is now.
I took a piece of plexiglass, and made a crankcase door for my ASHWAMEGH 25/2.
I started the engine with this door in place and observed the oil circulation caused by the con-rod dippers.
My personal engine gets plenty of piston cooling oil. That also is why HOTATER and some of the rest of us have oil filter traps built into our crankcase doors.
The con-rod dippers throw oil at the camshaft, and up around under the piston and across the crankcase door in a 'vigorous' band that's wider than the connecting rod big end.
You can do it. This engine is so easy to take apart, you can stop the engine from full load, yank the door off and use an infrared temp gun to find out what's going on.
Start your engine with the door off. :D Observe the mess you are making. :o Stop the engine. clean up the mess. :P Put the door back on. ;) Have confidence that oil is getting on the inside of your engine. 8)
Scott E
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RAB:
as for splash lube, yes i know it works on many engines, and has been successful, but
to my knowlege the method that lister used was somewhat unique as it relates to big end oiling.
yes the system worked well with the oem setup, which includes the oils they spec'd, the fuels they spec'd, the load
that it was rated for, "and" the original metallurgy of the big end brgs (metallurgy which has changed over the years)
the primary reason i don't like the oem oiling system for the big end is based on the experience of those running listeroids
which use the same oem design, but modern brgs metallurgy, modern oils, and fuels,, and it does not work as it did on the originals!
i have seen many examples of the top shells being beaten to death and needing replacment far sooner than i would expect
the oem lister ever required.
if you were to do a bit of study on proper big end oiling, the need for establishing a hyd wedge (and maintaining it) it becomes
apparent that those two top feed holes and their accompanied grooves destroy the wedge that is formed which in turn shortens
the brg life.
bob g
This is just my observation or internet opinion with a bit of logic but we have to remember there has never that I know of been a factory clean and correct to spec "Listeroid" sold anywhere. Judgment based on the bearing life of a "Listeroid" can only be made on the ones that are immediately disassembled and extensively cleaned checked for clearances or in other words blueprinted. Also they have never seen a production environment the true "Listers" have. The "Listeroids" have decks milled crooked misalignment all over the place. A million reasons to cause a bearing failure besides the for sure killer...SAND. I see no issues with the design of a “Listeroid” or “Lister” bottom end if assembled correctly; the design has proven itself with a good history behind it. The "Listeroid" is nothing but a "Core" engine and if you don't correct the flaws the Indians built into it there will be big problems. Just a guess but maybe only 10% of the "Listeroids" have been really gone through 100% and all issues corrected. Then maybe only 2% of those are put into off grid use or really start putting the hours on it to get a history. Anyway that’s all I have to say...lets compare fresh apples to fresh apples not fresh apples to rotten apples!
Dave
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My old conrod had a hollow dipper so i tried some of those special bearings from the US.They seem to work just fine.New conrod has solid dipper so i ill be using standard bearings.I dont set to 3 thou.I add beer can shims until to moves freely.Taking the cover off as soon as the engine has stopped ,i saw oil dripping down all over the place so it looked like it was getting plenty.
Iam changing the head from a wet to a dry because ive got one and it is less hassle to work on the injector on a dry head.The injector fits both.
When its back together ill run it for a couple of hours on pump Diesel.I am hoping it was some problem with the conrod.If i still have the same problem then i will try an old piston in the new liner.
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First run today with new conrod for 2 hours.Took cover off and pointed infa-red thermometer up piston and highest reading was 95 C .Oil everywhere.Big end temp was 55 C for the record.
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ooooooo , gonna have to buy one of those IR thermometers !! Glad your Listy seems to be happier now !!!
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Not completely happy,its smoking a bit.Could be because the oil ring got broken so had to fit a new one.Or maybe i didnt grind the new valves in enough although compression seems to be ok.Or could a different head alter the timing some how, thou i cant see how.Decided not to use the 92deg C thermostat for a while.The coil in the tank is so inefficient anyway i get hot water back to the engine quit quickly.
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Perhaps the smoke is due to excess oil in the valve pockets. Mine will if I over fill it.
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Its all settled down now,not much smoke.Couldnt get the cov plug out when the head was on the bench so screwed a short bolt into the hole and had the engine run up to temp on full load.Still wouldnt budge, the ^%$£"* thing.
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Still got a sticky piston when hot.Engine is running at 630rpm,50-52 hz,230v ish,3kw load,very little smoke.Bottom end starts getting very noisy as i suppose its hammering the bearings.Drop the load to 2kw and things settle down ok.Filled the cylinder and head with hydrochloric acid to remove any limescale that i thought might be causing hot spots.Cant think of anything else that i can try. I want more than 2kw out of it.
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what kind of load are you pulling?
if it is a poor powerfactor load you may not be able to pull more than the indicated 2kwatt load
bob g
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Sounds like somethings out of line to me.
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The load is a fan heater.Its nearly all resistive load.I said 3kw because thats what the heater is rated at, but its in fact 2.8kw according to the KIll-a-watt.
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have you checked the injector?
is it dribbling and not firing cleanly?
timing too fast?
too much exhaust system back pressure?
what is your exhaust temp getting up to under max loading?
seems to me it ought to pull near 3kwatt with the heater without
issues.
time to dig into the tougher to diagnose possibilities, perhaps?
iirc correctly is this the engine that was cooking the oil on the underside of the piston?
and when it gets hot the engine acts like it is starting to sieze the piston? getting too tight?
i am thinking you may well have a bad injector that is not firing properly, overfueling
and not atomizing properly enough to get a clean burn and makeing a bunch of heat?
can you pull the injector and have it pop tested by an injection shop?
you have several things happening
1. the engine won't pull the full load
2. it is making some smoke, moreso than you feel is normal
3. it gets hot and acts like the piston is getting tight.
4. the oil is coking on the underside of the piston top
sure makes me wonder about the injector, timeing and exhaust back pressure
in decending order.
i do know that DI engines when an injector tip fails can burn a piston in a hurry
being your engine is IDI it keeps most of the heat from direct contact with the piston.
not an easy one for sure
bob g
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Lendusaquid,
Remind us - does it run on thermosyphon or pump? A pump draws power and will reduce system output by about 150W
Lister spec, remember only gives 6HP on the dot at 650RPM. Any reduction will mean less than 6HP (probably losing about 200W output from this). How are you measuring RPMs? It may make a bigger difference. If using a tacho, how did you check the calibration?
Operation of your COV: Is it in or out?
Indian piston: Is the ring gap correct? Are the rings able to sit below the piston OD when installed ( like - are the grooves too shallow?) Is this the engine which had a bent crank?
What efficiency is the generator at that output? An oversized head could be well down on efficiency.
Having said that, if it is not getting hot, not black-smoking, not losing RPMs it doesn'r seem to be at the power limit for it's operation. One way is to accelerate it at full load - does it simply belch black smoke and not increase speed or does it pick up speed easily?
Is this running on bio or dino?
Bob has listed most of the regular check points from the manual
Am I right in thinking you had a tight piston at TDC a long time ago? If so what has changed to remove that fault?
Was the ring ridge removed properly when fitting new rings? Is the top ring higher than on the original piston?
Did you clean away all deposits under the rings when you found the piston gummed up recently?
It sounds as though you are likely to have a serious failure if the engine continues to run improperly.
Regards, RAB
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Its running on thermosyphon into an insulated copper cylinder.I get about 2 hours running before thermosyphon fails.Using a laser tacho to measure rpm.Also used a bicycle tacho to double check.COV out at 3kw on diesel and veg.For my last run it was diesel only.Ring gap is about 20 thou.All the rings can be pushed below the surface of the piston.It had a bent conrod not crank.I had straitened the conrod but replaced it anyway.Its running an ST5 head which has had the fan end bearing replaced.This is the engine with tight piston at TDC and cabonised oil under the crown when at full load.This is still the problem.I had a new dry liner fitted and the piston is Indian so there is ,or i should say was no ridge.Injector was tested by Bosch about a year ago.I do get carbon around it when running veg even when it is heated to above 100C.I have tried ajusting the timing either way because iam not quite sure which way to go,especially when trying to get rid of diesel knock.Exhaust is one thing i have not thought about.At the moment i have it going through a lorry silencer and then down into a underground pit.I will remove the silencer and pit and replace with just a pipe for testing.If that fails then the piston is coming out and i will put a propane torch to the crown to see if anything happens.I have an old Lister piston that i will also try although the top groove is to slack to use a ring.I never seem to get much smoke except when overloaded just like any lister. What effect would having a worn pump cam have ?
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if you have been running veggie i would have the injector retested
the more i think about it the more suspect i am of the injector being the culprit in this issue.
as for a inj pump cam issue, i suppose anything is possible but seems unlikely that it would cause
overfueling, alter the timeing maybe,, but i doubt it is causing your problem, but check it out anyway.
you mention carbon on the injector tip, how do you clean that off?
with a cloth and solvent or with a rotary wire brush?
the reason i ask is a rotary brush can deform the tip hole(s) and cause a bad pattern
if it is not too much trouble pull the injector and have it rechecked
make sure it pops cleanly at the spec'd pressure and does not dribble under partial pressure
be sure of the guy you have checking it, these old mechanical injectors are gettin long in the tooth
and most of the new guys are working with electronic units and may think that your pattern/operation is
good enough and maybe not really good enough?
also you mention a dry liner
is it a thin liner that does not have contact with the coolant? like the 71 series detroits and mack engine's?
if so you may have clearance issues between the block and liner allowing oil to get up between them carbonize
and effecitively insulate the liner from the cooling system.
how tight did the liner fit the casting? press fit, chilled fit, slip fit, sloppy fit?
i am not familiar with early listers and what they did with liners or if in fact they were dry liners, but if they
are you really want to look into this and have a proper fit.
i am reaching at straws here, don't know your engine, and can't see it either, so take it fwiw
just trying to help :)
bob g
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Ill get the injector retested to be on the safe side.The old liner was pressed out and a new one pressed in.It has no contact with the coolant.When i first phoned the company that carried out the work and told them what it was, he immediately looked up the required spec, which impressed me.The guy had worked on the things in the way distant past.
http://www.robinsonengines.adsl-web.newnet.co.uk/
I have checked alignments and levels every which way i can think of.All i have found so far is that the top of the piston is on a slope and its obvious by sight.More bump clearance on one side than the other.
Having more than one person clutching at straws is more than welcome.For a start i never thought about the exhaust back pressure.
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Stripped the engine down and rebuilt it. Ive got a suspicion that i might have got the gears one notch out when doing some previous work.Also found more than one copper washer in the injector hole,so now the injector sits lower down where it should be.Exhaust temp is about 200 C. Any advise on whether this is about right or not?.Appears to be running sweet on 2.8kw. Had my first key fall out as well.The flywheel was pulled towards the engine by the belt which was lucky.
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your exhaust temp seems about right to me for a lister/oid
that works out to about 390 degree's F. which seems good to me
it now carries the load you want with it, so cool!
maybe it was a one tooth advanced cam?
glad to hear it is doing more in line with what it should and meeting your expectations
have you ran it long enough under the 2.8kwatt load to see if it acts like it is getting tight again?
my thinking it is not getting tight now?
hope this solves the problem for you.
bob g
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Ran it for a couple of hours on diesel and all seems ok to me.Tighter than when cold but i expect it to be.Not excessive like before thou.Bit concerned that the small end pin on the Indian piston can be pushed out with a finger.On the Lister pistons i have, it has to be knocked out.Even sloppier when hot i should think.