Lister Engine Forum
Alternative fuels => Waste Vegetable Oil => Topic started by: jens on July 06, 2008, 07:15:14 AM
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That all sounds VERY energy intensive...
Assuming 40 kWh per gallon of wvo/diesel, your running a 3.7 kW electric motor, a 3 Kw heater, etc etc, this is non trivial, and you haven't given numbers with a kill-a-watt meter so let's just assume you use 20 kWh of power to run the batch.
Assuming 30% conversion efficiency from fuel to electric that's 60 kWh, or 1.5 gallons of product, to process a 30-40 gallon batch, OK, you come out ahead, but you're still using up 5% of the product to process the product, which seems very energy intensive.
Now, a system that worked all day every day with no user intervention, just fill the top hopper and let gravity and sunlight do the work, that I can see working, a dripping tap will fill a bath quicker than you'd think and all that.
EROI basically.
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Ask several people on this and you will get several answers. Here is mine.
I allow the oil to sit for minimum 1 week.
I then pour off the top part of oil into a three sock filter system comprising of pillow case, 20 micron filter then 1 micron filter all inside each other.
I cold pour the top clear part of the wvo into the filter system that’s about 3/4 of my oil supply (other supplies will vary)
let it drip into the bottom.
decant from a tap 2" up from the bottom of the tank.
That’s it. I have run near 20,000 miles on my WVO on an unaltered Freelander common rail injection engine in the UK. Its just been through its MOT with WVO in it and it passed the emissions.
I would like at some time to put my oil through a centrifuge to see if there is any left over slime in the oil.
Disclaimer: It works for me, don’t try it at home!! ;)
Stephen
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Stephen: How about some pictures of your setup?? ;D ;D
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This seems to work for me
1. Warm cubies (in sun or waste heat from engine)
2. Strain/filter thru 600/400/200/100 screens into stand barrels (5gal pail screens are easier to clean)
3. settle for as long as possible (right now about a month)
4. 10 micron filtered during transfer to centrifuge
5. Heat oil and centrifuge (5 passes) and collect water during centrifuge shutdown
I'm with you Jens, somewhat reticent to leave the whole affair when running - I did pick up a bale of oil absorbent pads and a pail of sawdust to clean up a spill
(http://i13.ebayimg.com/01/i/05/fe/51/fc_2.JPG)
Cheers, Fred
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Jens,
Your mist wash seems an enigma to me. I am wondering why not just inject water with the oil as it is going into the circulating pump. As you say it will be emulsified pretty well instantaneously. About a ten minute job for 150kg or so, I would have thought.
An impellor pump for that part would be adequate to just circulate until you have enough water in the mix if you were worried about wear on a gear pump.
Is this too simplistic? I don't do veggie so I am not in with the specifics of the methods.
Regards, RAB
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What about using a vacumn pump to boil all the water off,while it is pumping through a 10 micron filter. The oil could be heated to 150 degrees F. to aid in the boiling off of the water. Just an idea :-\
I see very nice dual fuel conversions at www.greasecar.com They sell everything you need weather it is for a VW jetta or a 1 ton pickup truck like a Ford Powersmoke
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That all sounds VERY energy intensive...
Assuming 40 kWh per gallon of wvo/diesel, your running a 3.7 kW electric motor, a 3 Kw heater, etc etc, this is non trivial, and you haven't given numbers with a kill-a-watt meter so let's just assume you use 20 kWh of power to run the batch.
Assuming 30% conversion efficiency from fuel to electric that's 60 kWh, or 1.5 gallons of product, to process a 30-40 gallon batch, OK, you come out ahead, but you're still using up 5% of the product to process the product, which seems very energy intensive.
Now, a system that worked all day every day with no user intervention, just fill the top hopper and let gravity and sunlight do the work, that I can see working, a dripping tap will fill a bath quicker than you'd think and all that.
EROI basically.
I have a similar setup I use to process WMO. Since people pay me a dollar a gallon to drop it off here, the more I burn, the more I make. Granted, at a dollar a gallon, it barely covers oil changes and filters etc. but still, when you are paying nothing for the fuel, 5% of nutten is still nutten. Lets face it, nutten is free, everything else costs now days. It either costs money, energy or time. If time is more important to you, then you have to look at it from that perspective. Now me, I am retired and I get board easy so I have lots of time available to me and my projects. I can sit and watch a barrel of WMO settle for a year with no problem. By the time I get around to processing it, I don't have to pre filter it, just run it through the dieselcraft. Yeah I got to clean it once and a while and occasionally the jets get plugged and need to be cleaned, but If I wanted turn key I wouldn't have this engine.
The same goes for money. I like to look at the long term. Price-wise filters are a lot cheaper than a dieselcraft or simple centrifuge, but at some point you are going to get to the point where you start thinking, damn, if I had thought ahead, I could be filtering this for free by now if ....
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I've been filtering oil and running my vehicles for 3 years and I have had great luck with gravity filtering. I use jeans for sock filters and am able to get 6 on a 55 gallon barrel. This gives me about 25 gallons per barrel when I start out, less as it fills up. After filtering and settling I either pump through a 5 micron filter cartridge into containers for my vehicles or 20 micron filters for my storage tanks which have a heated fuel valve. In 3 years I have changed very few fuel filters on my vehicles using this method. In the winter I have a heated cabinet(discarded freezer) that I use to warm/settle the oil in, along with electric spears for the barrel and socks. Having spent my whole life working on other people's complicated machinery, I choose to keep things simple and cheap for myself. ;D Living in upstate NY my conversions also have completely heated fuel systems so they can be used down to -20F.
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I am absolutely dumbfounded how much water can be retained in the oil .... I would like to keep the mist wash step but this might turn out to be too expensive an option in either time or energy.
Jens - Could you please expand a little on this ?
How much water would you estimate was still in the oil ?
Is the oil still crystal clear whilst still containing this water ?
How do you know that you have removed all of the water at the end of your processing ?
Regards,
Ian
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I got so sick of bag filtering my WVO last winter I spent the $ for a Simple Centrifuge bowl a couple months ago. Gravity feed, runs unattended, 5-8 GPH. I settle the oil for 10-50 days and filter at 400 microns into 55 gallon drums where it settles again and then gets pumped into the hanging barrel. No water wash. The oil is between 120-150° F when it enters the CF. The motor and heaters use about 475 watts. The sludge I scrape out of the bowl is black and has the consistency of grease. I clean it every 25 gallons or so but could go a bit longer. Maybe I get good grease but I’ve never seen a drop of water in the bowl. About ½ the power to run it has come from the Listeroid but that will go up substantially now that the bugs have been worked out. I won’t be able to run it in the winter but I’ll make sure I have 200 gallons processed by first frost for the Listeroid.
I’ve made some improvements since these pics were taken but the basic setup is still the same.
http://www.genedevera.com/temp/img_0722.jpg
http://www.genedevera.com/temp/img_0723.jpg
http://www.genedevera.com/temp/centrifuge/IMG_0609.jpg
http://www.genedevera.com/temp/centrifuge/IMG_0605.jpg
http://www.genedevera.com/temp/centrifuge/IMG_0604.jpg
2 more hours work and my 1985, 300D Benz will be running on WVO.
Centrifuging is fun
Bag filtering blows
Thanks, Geno
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Hey Jens,
I'll bet dollars to donuts that you could drop the wash phase completely.
Just heat, centrifuge, and then filter through a 5 or 10 micron filter (while it's still warm) into
your storage container.
Cheers,
Veggie
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Jens,
Yep ! once you have gained enough confidence in the centrifuge, you could probably drop the filtration phase also.
Although a cheap inline filter might be prudent to prove the centrifuge.
I bought a small in-line unit with a spin-on 10 micron cartridge for about $25 in order to test my centrifuge.
If the element picks up particles after passing 2 or three batches, then I can question the centrifuge (or maybe the way I rigged the centrifuge).
If it stays squeaky clean, then I get one of those warm and fuzzy feelings you mentioned ;D
Cheers,
Veggie
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Here's some of my latest run of wvo, poured thru 600/400/200/100 micron strainers - 1 month in the stand barrel then thru a 10 micron filter and 6 heated passes thru the centrifuge. Crackle test's awesome.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/fredreiman/SJJ1pOQXvtI/AAAAAAAAAFM/6DrWBTEk9t8/CIMG1040.JPG?imgmax=512)
Fred
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All I did was take a 45gallon plastic drum,cut the top off. A plywood cover sits on top of the barrel. On this cover is mounted a 1/3hp motor with a 3" pulley,a brass gear pump with a 6"pulley. A spin on filter adapter & a BIG 10 micron Donaldson filter($15,princess auto) A fan blows air into the barrel and out a 4"plastic stack where there is a nozzle that sprays the warmed oil downward against the rising colder air. The oil is heated with the hot water from my coal stoker via a heat exchanger made of schd40,3/4pipe.
I can turn this on and walk away from it. It will eventually have a timer to turn the fan & motor on and off .1/2 hour on &2hours off. This will allow the oil to be heated up between drying and filter cycles.Having trouble posting pictures .